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Question:

Hello all, Now that it’s midwinter, I am doing much fishing in my mind, thinking about the season to come. I have thought about how the focus on my fishing during the 10 years I have lived in New York has gone from nymphing to dry fly fishing. I do all styles and approaches, but I do find that I seek out situations where I am most likely to get them on top. I probably should nymph more than I do, because you can do it without a hatch, and there are better chances of getting bigger fish. I just get annoyed how deep nymphing is better suited with different rods, lines, and leaders than dry fly fishing. I find it awkward to switch back and forth on the stream, and I refuse to carry 2 rods onto the water. One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more. I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that. Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away? About good nymphing leader recipies(I tie my own)? About how spooky fish react to your closeness to them? Pete Collin

Response:

Peter, I think you’re doing the right thing restricting you line length, I’m very disciplined about that using a maximum of one myself while searching pocket water and runs. If I see a fish, I will lengthen line as the circumstances allow rather than approach to close. It does take a fair bit of concentration which can be nice to alleviate with a dry fly presentation every now and then – often I find the fish taking the dry will take the nymph quite readily. I’m happy to use the same leader for both dry and nymph – adding or deleting tippett where required … length is a rod length (7.5 – 9ft) and thats it. Formulae is the simple 60 20 20 occasionally I’ll use a furled butt section of 4lb mono usually where there is room to swing the rod for a decent hook set. What is important is the nymph swimming level, especially when searching water for fish that are not visible. Usually tight to the bottom requires a fly somewhere down there to attract their interest. However you prefer to get the fly down, weight in the fly or a shotted up leader is immaterial as long as it is in the zone. Casting might not seem important in such circumstance but it is … if you can cast (by whatever means) so that the leader doesn’t straighten properly the fly will sink further than if it does straighten. I sometimes think it is forgotten that this is something that can be used to great effect in controlling the depth of a nymph for long or short distance nymphing with weighty flies. The Flies themselves are an interesting topic … Steve

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One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more. I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that. Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?

No simple answers here, Peter. Nymphing is a big topic. It’s worth a few books and quite a few have been written. There are a variety of techniques that allow you to nymph in close, as far as you can cast, just under the surface, bouncing on the bottom, etc. etc. etc. It take times to learn the different techniques, more time to get decent with them, but what’s probably the most difficult to learn is where and when to use the different techniques. Like dry fly fishing, control is much easier if your casts are short. If the situation warrants it, you are going to be more successful fishing in close. Like Jeff and Dave pointed out, you can often get very close to fish when they are feeding on the bottom, especially in broken water. They are much more secure than fish feeding on the surface. However, there are several other things that dictate how close you can get. Because of a number of factors, trout in some streams and rivers are more spooky. Much tougher to get close to these fish without spooking them. On placid sections, it is often difficult to get close to fish without spooking them, etc. On big rivers, depth and current speed are going to prevent you from wading close enough for a short cast to many prime areas. For example, the most productive area we fished at Henry’s Fork this fall, required long casts to reach some of the best lies. I also dislike rerigging all the time on the water. IMO, for most nymphing, a short leader butt with a couple of long tippet sections is better for nymphing than a traditional tapered leader. The thinner tippet sections allow the fly to sink more readily, act more naturally and also allow you to use less weight (which I like). However, more often, I just add a long tippet section to a regular tapered leader. That way it’s much easier to switch back to a dry. This does mean, at least when fishing deep water, my leader is very long. Willi

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One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more. I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that. Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?

Another thing – learn the "tuck cast". It’s great for shorter distance casting in pocket water when you need to get the nymph down to fish-catchin’ level ASAP. Much easier with a split shot near the nymph or a weighted nymph.

Response:

One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more. I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that. Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away?

A longer rod certainly helps. In fact, I’m thinking of going to a 9.5 to 10 foot rod for heavy nymphing and might ask about that here soon. For closer nymphing with a "high stick" (controlling depth and slack by raising and lowering your rod), I think you’re better off with no strike indicator. This is especially true in deeper, broken water with rocks where the depth keeps changing. The farther away you get, especially if you are not sight nymphing in clear water, and especially if the depth is constant, the more a strike indicator will help you. With steady water flow (not a lot of broken water and mixed currents), you can get in some fairly long casts with an indicator. About good nymphing leader recipies(I tie my own)?

Tying your own is convenient if you use a foam indicator or other indicator that you can slide around, since you have a number of knots that act as "stops" for the indicator. As far as material, Maxima works good but it’s not the strongest per diameter, so I’m looking for something else in the tippet. Flouro is too damn expensive, and Orvis Super Strong has broken a lot on me – it’s strong, but it’s simply not very abrasion resistant IMO. Look up Borger’s "uni-body" leader if you want simplicity. With a bit of lead on the leader, we’re not going to quibble over the whether the 6th section should be 15 or 17" for best turnover, eh? About how spooky fish react to your closeness to them?

In bouldery pocket water with deeper runs and chop on top, you can get virtually on top of them (assuming you can’t see them). In fact I’ve gone in with my arm up to my shoulder to pull out a snag, and continued to fish the run and catch fish. In smoother spring creek type water, and for sight nymphing, ask elsewhere

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I’m confused by this statement. Would you please elaborate? — Citizen Fisherman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m happy to use the same leader for both dry and nymph – adding or deleting tippett where required … length is a rod length (7.5 – 9ft) and thats it.

Response:

Peter Collin writes: One thing about the technique – I do most nymphing in close – with a rodlength or 2 of line out, no more. I find it very hard to control the drift beyond that. Can anybody give me some discussion about nymphing in close/far away? About good nymphing leader recipies(I tie my own)? About how spooky fish react to your closeness to them? Pete Collin

Hi, Peter. Most of my nymphing is within 15 feet of me, but there are the occasions (quite often, really) when an actual distance cast can be of some use. Up and across (with or without an indicator) seems to work best for me. I am talking, maybe, 30 or so feet. I have found that the nymph must get down to the bottom for best results. The best way I have found to do this is to use non-toxic split shot. If you do not know the water you will have to experiment with the size/amount of shot. Your leader/line or indicator should move slower than the surface water (unlike dry fly fishing). The water near the bottom of the pool/run/etc is moving slower than the surface water. Therefore, you have to slow down your drift. Gary Borger in a recent tutorial stated that if your indicator is moving the same speed as the surface water, you have to add more weight (split shot, bead head, whatever). If I use an indicator, it is usually the yarn type with the o-ring attached. Put some floatant on and it never sinks. I prefer a leader somewhere between 7 1/2 to 9 feet, with an additional 3 or so feet of tippet. I generally use a 4x leader with 4x or 5x fluorocarbon tippet. About 3 feet above the fly (at the leader/tippet knot), I place my shot. I seldom fish a double. To switch over to dries, simply snip off the fluorocarbon tippet and add 3 feet of mono 5x. I always use a floating line, btw. It is easier to mend. My favorite rod is a Sage SP 9 foot 4 weight. Spooky fish? I’ve caught fish right at my feet on Maine, MA, NY, PA, and NM waters. The fish in Idaho were a little more spooky and most of my hook-ups were at a distance, up and across. The fish in Labrador were very spooky and in four years, I managed to catch only 2 small (2 – 3 pounds) brook trout on caddis worms. It is a dry fly fisherman’s heaven! d;0) A lengthy reply……sorry. HTH Dave

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Question:

There are some part 135 operators making pretty good bucks flying the mail up in Alaska. Apparently the US govt is paying buuckoo bucks for operators to fly the mail and appareantly anyone can mail anything anywhere in Alaska (like their groceries) and the govt picks up the bill. So you have a lottta operators makin money flyin the mail up there, paying off their big buck turbines. Another route would be to get a government flying job with the Mounties, Fish and Wildlife or some such. Those guys get paid descent wages to fly descent planes and have reasonable schedules. It’s not the majors and both are govt jobs, which kinda suck, but those are the sort of options ya got up there other than a flyin’ bum in the bush leagues, which is loads of fun but suck on pay. Anyway ya do it, eventually you are gonna to have to get an IFR ticket, I mean ya just aint an aviator without one! O – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a commercial bush pilot living in Canada, I fly floats in the summer and wheel/skis in the winter. I do all of my fueling, cleaning, loading, basically im a one man show. I love the float season, i love flying into little lakes, beaching on a island, dumping my passengers off and then swimming or fishing for a while if I have time before my next flight. My problem is this; I know that if I want to make any money I will probibaly have to move into the multi ifr stuff in the next couple of years before i get too old (im 26). And the problem with that is I have done the ifr ground school twice (3-day cram fest in Vancouver for $200) and have not completed it either time. I am bored shitless and cant concentrate! I just cant get into it and I’m not sure why? For you comm pilots out there flying ifr all the time; does it suck? are you bored most of the time? I go up to the cockpit on air canada A320 sometimes and visit the pilots and they dont seem to have much to do….or see. Any float drivers turned ifr drivers out there who can give me some encouragement? Are there any fun ifr jobs where i dont have to dawn a shirt with those prissy gold bars? Am I doomed to choose between a job I hate for the money or a job I love and poverty? Help, jon Sounds to me that you should direct your energies toward finding a way to make more money doing what you love. Enough creative thought can make you happy *and* rich. Talk to your clients in-depth and find out what they would like to see you do better and listen for hints about what services you can provide that will help them enjoy the experience more. Become upscale and charge higher prices. People are willing to pay a premium for quality and service, trust me. Regardless, if you are happy doing what you are doing, you are luckier than most. As you get older you will find that happiness is more valuable and harder to come by than any amount of money. Good luck and fly safe. — Jeff ‘The Wizard of Draws’ Bucchino http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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shirt with those prissy gold bars? Am I doomed to choose between a job I hate for the money or a job I love and poverty?

It sounds like you’re already doing exactly what you should be doing… BTW, congratulations tim PP-ASEL

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am a commercial bush pilot living in Canada, I fly floats in the summer and wheel/skis in the winter. I do all of my fueling, cleaning, loading, basically im a one man show. I love the float season, i love flying into little lakes, beaching on a island, dumping my passengers off and then swimming or fishing for a while if I have time before my next flight. My problem is this; I know that if I want to make any money I will probibaly have to move into the multi ifr stuff in the next couple of years before i get too old (im 26). And the problem with that is I have done the ifr ground school twice (3-day cram fest in Vancouver for $200) and have not completed it either time. I am bored shitless and cant concentrate! I just cant get into it and I’m not sure why? For you comm pilots out there flying ifr all the time; does it suck? are you bored most of the time? I go up to the cockpit on air canada A320 sometimes and visit the pilots and they dont seem to have much to do….or see. Any float drivers turned ifr drivers out there who can give me some encouragement? Are there any fun ifr jobs where i dont have to dawn a shirt with those prissy gold bars? Am I doomed to choose between a job I hate for the money or a job I love and poverty? Help, jon

Sounds to me that you should direct your energies toward finding a way to make more money doing what you love. Enough creative thought can make you happy *and* rich. Talk to your clients in-depth and find out what they would like to see you do better and listen for hints about what services you can provide that will help them enjoy the experience more. Become upscale and charge higher prices. People are willing to pay a premium for quality and service, trust me. Regardless, if you are happy doing what you are doing, you are luckier than most. As you get older you will find that happiness is more valuable and harder to come by than any amount of money. Good luck and fly safe. — Jeff ‘The Wizard of Draws’ Bucchino http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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I am a commercial bush pilot living in Canada, I fly floats in the summer and wheel/skis in the winter. I do all of my fueling, cleaning, loading, basically im a one man show. I love the float season, i love flying into little lakes, beaching on a island, dumping my passengers off and then swimming or fishing for a while if I have time before my next flight. My problem is this; I know that if I want to make any money I will probibaly have to move into the multi ifr stuff in the next couple of years before i get too old (im 26). And the problem with that is I have done the ifr ground school twice (3-day cram fest in Vancouver for $200) and have not completed it either time. I am bored shitless and cant concentrate! I just cant get into it and I’m not sure why? For you comm pilots out there flying ifr all the time; does it suck? are you bored most of the time? I go up to the cockpit on air canada A320 sometimes and visit the pilots and they dont seem to have much to do….or see. Any float drivers turned ifr drivers out there who can give me some encouragement? Are there any fun ifr jobs where i dont have to dawn a shirt with those prissy gold bars? Am I doomed to choose between a job I hate for the money or a job I love and poverty? Help, jon

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Question:

Those damn ducks! Yesterday around 6:00 p.m. I finally finished getting the boat ready for guests for the OpSail parade. Hosed off the finger piers real nice, too. The local ducks must prefer a clean head because they jumped right up and christened my neatly-Flemished dockline.

The damn crows "christened" Stinky’s new seat – which was inside the boat, with the top up. They either went inside the boat, let one go, and said "whew! something stinks in here!" and left, or did a Luke Skywalker dive-bomb and pull-up in the side window. Lloyd Sumpter "Stinky" Fibrecraft 14 — It’s better to be at the dock, wishing you were at sea, than at sea, wishing you were at the dock.

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or you could just feed ‘em Alka-Seltzer….. In our years of boating we’ve tried fake owls and snakes, wind socks and conical piling tops but there seems to be no permanent solution to these gulls who leave huge droppings on our clean and polished decks. Then they fly by overhead laughing at us! There is no solution to the problem but now there is revenge. A colleague has developed a shareware PC game called "Gullblaster". It features rendered seashore scenes and sounds and a sky littered with the enemy seagulls. Now you can blast them out of the sky without legal implications. There is also a screen saver called "Picture Saver" available on Steve’s web site. It is a "slide show" viewer that allows you to display your favorite seashore scenes or boating and fishing pictures that are saved on your PC as graphic images. Check it out at: Freeware and shareware screen savers, games, and utilities If you have problems with this as a link, just paste this site into your viewer’s location window – http://webshed.webjump.com/ — Regards, John G. — NJ Coastal and ICW – Somers Point / Ocean City

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In our years of boating we’ve tried fake owls and snakes, wind socks and conical piling tops but there seems to be no permanent solution to these gulls who leave huge droppings on our clean and polished decks. Then they fly by overhead laughing at us! There is no solution to the problem but now there is revenge. A colleague has developed a shareware PC game called "Gullblaster". It features rendered seashore scenes and sounds and a sky littered with the enemy seagulls. Now you can blast them out of the sky without legal implications. There is also a screen saver called "Picture Saver" available on Steve’s web site. It is a "slide show" viewer that allows you to display your favorite seashore scenes or boating and fishing pictures that are saved on your PC as graphic images. Check it out at: Freeware and shareware screen savers, games, and utilities If you have problems with this as a link, just paste this site into your viewer’s location window – http://webshed.webjump.com/ — Regards, John G. — NJ Coastal and ICW – Somers Point / Ocean City

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You know they taste like chicken!!

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Those damn ducks! Yesterday around 6:00 p.m. I finally finished getting the boat ready for guests for the OpSail parade. Hosed off the finger piers real nice, too. The local ducks must prefer a clean head because they jumped right up and christened my neatly-Flemished dockline.

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Question:

For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started. What should an 11 year old be able to handle? Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here. BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it.

When I was growing up without a father my next-door neighbor gave me flyfishing tackle and took me fishing. I’ll never forget him. You’ll be doing a very good deed. BTW, do you think maybe his mother has some additional reason for coming to the meeting?

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Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son. Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -BTW, do you think maybe his mother has some additional reason for coming to the meeting?

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Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son. Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box.

Sounds like she may have come to the right place anyway. — Charlie…

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I attended the inaugural meeting of a new fly fishing club here in Fredericksburg VA last Wednesday night. About 15 guys my age showed up, talked fly fishing and passed around photos of a bunch of 8 to 10 LB. stripers caught in the Rappahannock right under Rt. 1. Also joining the group was a single mom (thirty something and very attractive). She came to learn about fly fishing so she could teach her 11 year old son and take him fishing. She seemed to think fly fishing was the most wholesome sport she could think of (no offense but she hasn’t met this group).

for a shot at mom, i’ll put up my 8′ 2wt thomas&thomas. wayno the relentless

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Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son. Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box. Wayne

hold on man; you can’t forget who you are…you are a wayne, dammit, and that *stands* for something in this crazy world of ours. just walk over to her, look her in the eyes, and say: "my name is wayne. what color mercedes would you like to have?" she’ll be putty in your hands. wayno, who knows what he’s talkin about, i mean!

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My son is seven and he likes his KidStart system. It’s an 8 ft two piece rod with a 6/7 line. System comes with the backing, fly line, leader, and the case. The reel that comes with, is plastic. Nice for entry level anglers.

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Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son. Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box.

NEVER underestimate the subtlety of a woman. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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OK Wayno, I’ll bet it’ll be dark blue or black with leather upholstery, looks better on a blonde. Sorry George, I don’t think this gal has ever had to sleep in a tent! Wayne the damsel in distress rescuer To fish is human…to release divine. Now how did Wayno know the meeting is held a block away from the Mercedes/Volvo dealer? Could it be he keeps a little black book with the names of all the Mercedes dealers? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hold on man; you can’t forget who you are…you are a wayne, dammit, and that *stands* for something in this crazy world of ours. just walk over to her, look her in the eyes, and say: "my name is wayne. what color mercedes would you like to have?" she’ll be putty in your hands. wayno, who knows what he’s talkin about, i mean!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I attended the inaugural meeting of a new fly fishing club here in Fredericksburg VA last Wednesday night. About 15 guys my age showed up, talked fly fishing and passed around photos of a bunch of 8 to 10 LB. stripers caught in the Rappahannock right under Rt. 1. Also joining the group was a single mom (thirty something and very attractive). She came to learn about fly fishing so she could teach her 11 year old son and take him fishing. She seemed to think fly fishing was the most wholesome sport she could think of (no offense but she hasn’t met this group). For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started. What should an 11 year old be able to handle? Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here. BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

Check out "the poor mans fly fishing catalog" Cabela’s. Two of the short and extremely easy to cast. They longer stiffer rods are great if you are well coordinated, hefty, and expierienced. 11 year olds come in all sizes and muscularity but generally are of the smallish akward type and need all the help they can get from the rod. John Popp in Sanford Fl.

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I agree with Charlie. Physically he should be able to handle it. But I wouldn’t just give it without some ritual. Id make him earn it like this: Tell him and mom that you have this outfit, you think it might fit him but you wonder if he can handle a "man’s" outfit. Suggest a session with Mom and son at a park pond. She watches (the woman is for another time). Show him how to cast. Whatever happens, say it looks like he can handle a "man’s" outfit ( or at least "grow" into it) and give it. Show him how to carry it, break it down, and carefully put in sock etc. I hope Im not being too patronizing. You are doing a good thing. This kid is not living with a dad so he’s going to have too handle a lot more than a "man’s outfit" on his own, but you can create with this one generous act a positive initiation ritual and talisman of manhood. Our Native American brothers understand this stuff real well. Good luck , your message says you have the right heart for this. Dave

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I attended the inaugural meeting of a new fly fishing club here in Fredericksburg VA last Wednesday night. About 15 guys my age showed up, talked fly fishing and passed around photos of a bunch of 8 to 10 LB. stripers caught in the Rappahannock right under Rt. 1. Also joining the group was a single mom (thirty something and very attractive). She came to learn about fly fishing so she could teach her 11 year old son and take him fishing. She seemed to think fly fishing was the most wholesome sport she could think of (no offense but she hasn’t met this group). For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started. What should an 11 year old be able to handle? Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here. BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

Response:

For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started. What should an 11 year old be able to handle? Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here. BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it.

I think a 6wt would make a good all around starter set. — Charlie…

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I think that he should easily beable to use that rod…My 8year old uses an 6 1/2 foot 4wt and does very well with it. Jon

Clipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started. What should an 11 year old be able to handle? Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here. BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

Response:

For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started. What should an 11 year old be able to handle? Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here. BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

Wayne: My sons (11 through 14) all handle a 8.5′ 5 wt. just fine. I got them a 7.5′ 3wt. Cabella outfit for Christmas but I wonder if the 3 wt. might be a little light for their casting ability. I’ll find out in a couple of months! I think that 11 year old will do very well with your 6 wt. outfit as long as he gets some good instruction. –Stan

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Question:

Beautifully shadowboxed along with a signature card. Limited numbers. $59 includes shipping. Can e-mail for a picture that I cand send back e-mail quickly. Bruce

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Monday, August 17, 1998 4:26:33 AM Please, could you tell me what a Patriot Fly is? Perhaps a short description I have not heard of this pattern and it has piqued my interest. adam Small Stream Fly Fishing http://www.smallstreams.com

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It depends on what country you are from. It has the colors in your flag. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Monday, August 17, 1998 4:26:33 AM Please, could you tell me what a Patriot Fly is? Perhaps a short description I have not heard of this pattern and it has piqued my interest. adam Small Stream Fly Fishing http://www.smallstreams.com

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Please, could you tell me what a Patriot Fly is? Perhaps a short description I have not heard of this pattern and it has piqued my interest.

Hook TMC 7999, Mustad 36890, sizes2-6 Thread Black 6/0 prewaxed Tail Red hackle fibres Rib Fine oval silver tinsel Body Yellow floss, thin Hackle Vivid blue hackle, soft Wing White polar bear hair or calftail. Originator Frank Amato — Bill

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using the Patriot in tandem with a nymph pattern. Unfortunately he doesn’t decribe in any detail the set-up of this rig. Can anyone help? RWE

Hi Rich, I have heard some say they tie a clinch knot (improved) right to the bend of the hook of the dry to make the dropper. I have never tried this myself, but it seems like a workable solution. I have, however, used the Patriot and found it to be a good searching pattern. Tie one up and give it a try next time out. Good luck, Dennis Haftel

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Hi Vince, you’re dead right. it is totally different. I’m not familiar with U.S. flies. and I found the one I described in an American book. Does the Patriot vary from state to state, and why does it vary so much? Tried to help. but obviously way off mark! — Bill

I don’t know the answer to your question, Bill. I tried to phone Charlie Meck, who lives here, but he now has an unlisted phone number. I tried email and it was returned, "address unknown." I’ll try phoning George Harvey, who also lives here, to see if he knows Charlie’s phone number. If I can get any information, I’ll post it. Meanwhile, can you post the author and title of the book in which you found the Patriot pattern you posted? vince norris

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Meck also describes in his book MID-ATLANTIC TROUT STREAMS & THEIR HATCHES using the Patriot in tandem with a nymph pattern. Unfortunately he doesn’t decribe in any detail the set-up of this rig. Can anyone help? RWE – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Vince, you’re dead right. it is totally different. I’m not familiar with U.S. flies. and I found the one I described in an American book. Does the Patriot vary from state to state, and why does it vary so much? Tried to help. but obviously way off mark! — Bill I don’t know the answer to your question, Bill. I tried to phone Charlie Meck, who lives here, but he now has an unlisted phone number. I tried email and it was returned, "address unknown." I’ll try phoning George Harvey, who also lives here, to see if he knows Charlie’s phone number. If I can get any information, I’ll post it. Meanwhile, can you post the author and title of the book in which you found the Patriot pattern you posted? vince norris

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Hi Vince, you’re dead right. it is totally different. I’m not familiar

with U.S. flies. and I found the one I described in an American book. Does the Patriot vary from state to state, and why does it vary so much? Because of the damned 10th Amendment to the US Constitution, each of the states is a semi-sovereign entity and can have "their" version of the Patriot be whatever colors they choose. The Federal government is helpless to do anything about this situation as constitutionally, they are restricted to coining money and designing and deploying big things that go boom. We have historically however, had worse problems than with 10th Amendment issues than this one….:)

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Where (not too specific please… The state will do) do you fish this fly? I have had success with it in northern/central New Jersey. Dennis Haftel

Check that…. Just got another look at your e-mail address. You guys gonna play Rutgers this year?? Don’t have a schedule!! D. Haftel

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writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Please, could you tell me what a Patriot Fly is? Perhaps a short description I have not heard of this pattern and it has piqued my interest. Hook TMC 7999, Mustad 36890, sizes2-6 Thread Black 6/0 prewaxed Tail Red hackle fibres Rib Fine oval silver tinsel Body Yellow floss, thin Hackle Vivid blue hackle, soft Wing White polar bear hair or calftail. Originator Frank Amato The pattern Charlie presents on pages 197-8 of his book, _Patterns, Hatches, Tactics, and Trout_, is entirely different from the one submitted above: Hook: Mustad 94833, sizes #10-18 Thread: Red Tails: Brown hackle fibers Body: Smolt blue Krystal Flash wound around the shank. Wind some of the red thread in the midle of the shank, similar to the Royal Coachman. Wings: White impala or calf tail, divided. Hackle: Brown vince norris

Hi Vince, you’re dead right. it is totally different. I’m not familiar with U.S. flies. and I found the one I described in an American book. Does the Patriot vary from state to state, and why does it vary so much? Tried to help. but obviously way off mark! — Bill

Response:

The pattern Charlie presents on pages 197-8 of his book, _Patterns, Hatches, Tactics, and Trout_, is entirely different from the one submitted above: Hook: Mustad 94833, sizes #10-18 Thread: Red Tails: Brown hackle fibers Body: Smolt blue Krystal Flash wound around the shank. Wind some of the red thread in the midle of the shank, similar to the Royal Coachman. Wings: White impala or calf tail, divided. Hackle: Brown vince norris

Hi Vince, This is the version that I am familiar with also. I have tied and fished it and it has produced when there was no hatch, or I couldn’t figure out what to use. It also works really well on panfish! Where (not too specific please… The state will do) do you fish this fly? I have had success with it in northern/central New Jersey. Dennis Haftel

Response:

Please, could you tell me what a Patriot Fly is? Perhaps a short description I have not heard of this pattern and it has piqued my interest. Hook TMC 7999, Mustad 36890, sizes2-6 Thread Black 6/0 prewaxed Tail Red hackle fibres Rib Fine oval silver tinsel Body Yellow floss, thin Hackle Vivid blue hackle, soft Wing White polar bear hair or calftail. Originator Frank Amato

The pattern Charlie presents on pages 197-8 of his book, _Patterns, Hatches, Tactics, and Trout_, is entirely different from the one submitted above: Hook: Mustad 94833, sizes #10-18 Thread: Red Tails: Brown hackle fibers Body: Smolt blue Krystal Flash wound around the shank. Wind some of the red thread in the midle of the shank, similar to the Royal Coachman. Wings: White impala or calf tail, divided. Hackle: Brown vince norris

Response:

Question:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing I did find a problem was trying to stay orientated relative to the wind. The tendency was to rotate until I was head on to the wind. I was in a round bucks bag tube. Would a small droque help to keep you side on to the wind.

I use an oval Caddis float tube, and have occasion to run into the wind in the afternoons on the Sierra lakes I frequent. A couple of years ago I picked up a nylon anchor bag, that comes with several fathoms of 3/8′ nylon rope. It’s really changed the way I fish lakes. The bag allows me to determine how much weight I need to use depending upon the strength of the wind, but I’ve found that 2-3 fist sized rocks will usually do the job. Even with rocks, the bag will fit into a pocket on my tube, so I needn’t drag it around as I travel. If the wind is lighter than anticipated, I drop a rock, and if it picks up, I’m never very far from shore where I can grab another. I’ve attached a one-handed snap-swivel to the rope, and that makes it easy to change the attachment point to different d-rings on the tube, because the attachment point inevitably ends up upwind, although it’s not too difficult to maintain a casting position facing in any direction, once I’m anchored. My fishing buddy, an ex-swabby, says that for any given depth, the anchor line should be increased as the wind increases. He gave me some sort of naval term for it, which I disremember, but a longer line helps the anchor hold better in heavier winds. See illustration below. [Image] Many is the time I’ll anchor out in the middle of a lake, and cast upwind. I’ll let the wind move my fly and I find that this method puts my fly over lots of fish. When I want to move, I just pull the thing off the bottom, and either kick to a new location, or let the wind take me. At first I worried that I wouldn’t know when the anchor hit bottom, but I find there’s no mistaking it. Tubing changed the way I fish lakes, and the anchor has changed the way I tube. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me. http://www.midtown.net/~angler/ Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITEOne thing I did find a problem was trying to stay orientated relative to <BRthe wind. The tendency was to rotate until I was head on to the wind. I <BRwas in a round bucks bag tube. <PWould a small droque help to keep you side on to the wind.</BLOCKQUOTE I use an oval Caddis float tube, and have occasion to run into the wind in the afternoons on the Sierra lakes I frequent.  A couple of years ago I picked up a nylon anchor bag, that comes with several fathoms of 3/8′ nylon rope.  It’s really changed the way I fish lakes. <PThe bag allows me to determine how much weight I need to use depending upon the strength of the wind, but I’ve found that 2-3 fist sized rocks will usually do the job.  Even with rocks, the bag will fit into a pocket on my tube, so I needn’t drag it around as I travel.  If the wind is lighter than anticipated, I drop a rock, and if it picks up, I’m never very far from shore where I can grab another. <PI’ve attached a one-handed snap-swivel to the rope, and that makes it easy to change the attachment point to different d-rings on the tube, because the attachment point inevitably ends up upwind, although it’s not too difficult to maintain a casting position facing in any direction, once I’m anchored. <PMy fishing buddy, an ex-swabby, says that for any given depth, the anchor line should be increased as the wind increases.  He gave me some sort of naval term for it, which I disremember, but a longer line helps the anchor hold better in heavier winds.  See illustration below. <PMany is the time I’ll anchor out in the middle of a lake, and cast upwind.  I’ll let the wind move my fly and I find that this method puts my fly over lots of fish.  When I want to move, I just pull the thing off the bottom, and either kick to a new location, or let the wind take me.  At first I worried that I wouldn’t know when the anchor hit bottom, but I find there’s no mistaking it. <PTubing changed the way I fish lakes, and the anchor has changed the way I tube. <PAnglerboy <P– <BRTrout fear me, <BRWomen want me. <BR<A HREF="http://www.midtown.net/~angler/"http://www.midtown.net/~angler/</A <BR </HTML Content-Type: image/jpeg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="C:tempnsmailRA.jpeg" <encoded_portion_removed RRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFAH/2Q==

Response:

Dave I have been float tubeing now for 3 years, Although I don’t profess to being an expert I will gladly share with you my thoughts on the technique. No doubt other float tubers will have there own ideas, Inparticular the anglers that fish running waters. With regards to the techniqe I find that a most satisfactory method to fish is a slow figure of eight but be careful of the all too common takes on the lift. When float tubeing I normally fish with two flies, Some anglers fish with one some with two it,s really what you feel most comfortable with. But bearing in mind you have not got the same luxury of extendable landing nets. This thought should hopefully help you with your selection of leader length. From what I have witnessed rod lengths again vary from angler to angler from say 9′ to 11′, Again I’m talking still waters. River anglers may go down to 7′ or 8′, I personally use a 101/2′ rod which I find quite adequate. With referance to casting, As with any type of fly fishing you still have to load the rod. Again this depends on individual skills, Having said that many fish I have found are caught short lineing. Retrieving options are as varied as boat or bank angling, My advise on this would be to use them all. On the matter of loseing your rod whilst unhooking a fish or maybe having a sandwich, beer, ect. Most float tubes have two Velcro straps at the front of the tube to secure your rod. Additional tips. 1) Walk into the water backwards when launching. 2) Wear a bouyancy aid. 3) Tie your flippers to your ankles, (Individually of coarse). 4) Don’t drink too much fluid if you have a weak bladder, This can be most embarrassing but you can always blame it on leeking waders. 5) Observe all the safety guidlines set down by The Health and Safety Executive, Details can be obtained from The British Float Tube Association (See below). The British Float Tube Association Secretary Andre’ Russell 24 Merton Avenue, Syston, Leicester. LE7 2JP. Tel: 0116-260-6924. Hope this helps, Let us know how you get on. Tight lines. Tony Connor : Next week I am going float tubeing for the first time on a still water : and I need help with the answers to a few questions. : : What techniques are recommended. : : How many Flies do I fish, I will be using either an 8foot or 9 foot rod. : : In fact what is the best rod length. : : How long a leader. : : How far do I cast, do use enough line to load the rod from pickup or do : I cast further. : : Do I retieve or use loch style with a hang before a simple up and out : recast. : : How do I stop the rod falling into the water and sinking into the depths : when I change flies or land a fish, do I keep it attached to the tube. : : Any more tips. : : Dave Bolt : UK :

Response:

Dave I have been float tubeing now for 3 years, Although I don’t profess to being an expert I will gladly share with you my thoughts on the technique. No doubt other float tubers will have there own ideas, Inparticular the anglers that fish running waters. With regards to the techniqe I find that a most satisfactory method to fish is a slow figure of eight but be careful of the all too common takes on the lift. When float tubeing I normally fish with two flies, Some anglers fish with one some with two it,s really what you feel most comfortable with. But bearing in mind you have not got the same luxury of extendable landing nets. This thought should hopefully help you with your selection of leader length. From what I have witnessed rod lengths again vary from angler to angler from say 9′ to 11′, Again I’m talking still waters. River anglers may go down to 7′ or 8′, I personally use a 101/2′ rod which I find quite adequate. With referance to casting, As with any type of fly fishing you still have to load the rod. Again this depends on individual skills, Having said that many fish I have found are caught short lineing. Retrieving options are as varied as boat or bank angling, My advise on this would be to use them all. On the matter of loseing your rod whilst unhooking a fish or maybe having a sandwich, beer, ect. Most float tubes have two Velcro straps at the front of the tube to secure your rod. Additional tips. 1) Walk into the water backwards when launching. 2) Wear a bouyancy aid. 3) Tie your flippers to your ankles, (Individually of coarse). 4) Don’t drink too much fluid if you have a weak bladder, This can be most embarrassing but you can always blame it on leeking waders. 5) Observe all the safety guidlines set down by The Health and Safety Executive, Details can be obtained from The British Float Tube Association (See below). The British Float Tube Association Secretary Andre’ Russell 24 Merton Avenue, Syston, Leicester. LE7 2JP. Tel: 0116-260-6924. Hope this helps, Let us know how you get on. Tight lines. Tony Connor U.K. Lancashire. : Next week I am going float tubeing for the first time on a still water : and I need help with the answers to a few questions. : : What techniques are recommended. : : How many Flies do I fish, I will be using either an 8foot or 9 foot rod. : : In fact what is the best rod length. : : How long a leader. : : How far do I cast, do use enough line to load the rod from pickup or do : I cast further. : : Do I retieve or use loch style with a hang before a simple up and out : recast. : : How do I stop the rod falling into the water and sinking into the depths : when I change flies or land a fish, do I keep it attached to the tube. : : Any more tips. : : Dave Bolt : UK :

Response:

: One thing I did find a problem was trying to stay orientated relative to : the wind. The tendency was to rotate until I was head on to the wind. I : was in a round bucks bag tube. : I find the wind to be a real pain in the rear, and would be interested : in hearing about any type of anchor used by other belly boaters. On a big : lake it is hard to maintain a steady position or to determine how fast : your fly is dragging due to the wind. The best way that I have to deal with the wind is to keep at my back. This allows me to slowly kick so that I can maintain postion and steer the tube back into the position I want. It does not take much effrot to do this, and I can stay "put" in any wind that I can cast in. Of course, this is not always possible with some spots that I want to fish. Then, I’ll drift like I would in a canoe and paddle back to drift again. And remember, whitecaps breaking over your casting apron is nature’s way of telling you to knock off the foolishness and head for shore. ;- — Jon Porter

Response:

Sue wants to know, will a big fish tow you round the water. Should we get in some water skiing practice

We have a local lake that the ODF&W (Oregon Dept. of Fish & Wildlife) puts the spawned out hatchery steelhead into each year. A friend of mine hooked one last spring and spent two hours with it towing him around the lake. He couldn’t do a thing about it. And, he ended up taking the fish home for a few meals. — Tight Threads, Charley Renn Corvallis, OR

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Next week I am going float tubeing for the first time on a still water and I need help with the answers to a few questions. What techniques are recommended. How many Flies do I fish, I will be using either an 8foot or 9 foot rod. At once? One or more up to as many as you can handle. In fact what is the best rod length. Generally longer is better in a tube as you are so close to the water. How long a leader. for a surface presentation 12 feet is about average for sinking lines 5 or 6 feet is averge . How far do I cast, do use enough line to load the rod from pickup or do I cast further. however far away the fish are. You should be able to get closer to fish and hence cast a shorter line. Do I retieve or use loch style with a hang before a simple up and out recast. How do I stop the rod falling into the water and sinking into the depths when I change flies or land a fish, do I keep it attached to the tube. I stick the reel end of the rod sort of into my lap or between my knees. Many tubes have velcro bits on either side of the stripping apron lay your rod across these and fasten with the velcro before you start fiddling with fly boxes and cutting leaders Any more tips. Take a piss before you go out and take some water (NO BEER!) with you. I’ve had problems with leg cramps brought on by lack of fuids. Dave Bolt UK Ralph H

I second the idea to take a piss before you enter the water!!! HEHEHE. Looks kinda silly kicking to the shore only to urinate all over your waders because you can’t pull em down fast enogh…

Response:

Next week I am going float tubeing for the first time on a still water and I need help with the answers to a few questions.

Just a couple general pointers. 1. Wear a lfe vest. 2. Scout the area and find a nice flat, firm bottom on which to enter. 3. Make sure you’re familiar with your tube. Think about how you’d get out in a problem. 4. Inflate it properly. Not too much and not too little. 5. Keep it close to shore – real close – until you’re comfortable, and understand your ability. 6. Pee before you begin. 7. Narrow down your tackle to the bear minimum. 8. Consider doing it on a small body of water on a calm day. Every spring, after a long winter of no physical activity, I get leg cramps my first time or two out. Keep it slow, stop and rest as soon as a cramp begins. Good luck, John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

Response:

Next week I am going float tubeing for the first time on a still water and I need help with the answers to a few questions. What techniques are recommended. How many Flies do I fish, I will be using either an 8foot or 9 foot rod. In fact what is the best rod length. How long a leader. How far do I cast, do use enough line to load the rod from pickup or do I cast further. Do I retieve or use loch style with a hang before a simple up and out recast. How do I stop the rod falling into the water and sinking into the depths when I change flies or land a fish, do I keep it attached to the tube. Any more tips. Dave Bolt UK

Response:

Next week I am going float tubeing for the first time on a still water and I need help with the answers to a few questions. What techniques are recommended. How many Flies do I fish, I will be using either an 8foot or 9 foot rod.

At once? One or more up to as many as you can handle. In fact what is the best rod length.

Generally longer is better in a tube as you are so close to the water. How long a leader.

for a surface presentation 12 feet is about average for sinking lines 5 or 6 feet is averge . How far do I cast, do use enough line to load the rod from pickup or do I cast further.

however far away the fish are. You should be able to get closer to fish and hence cast a shorter line. Do I retieve or use loch style with a hang before a simple up and out recast. How do I stop the rod falling into the water and sinking into the depths when I change flies or land a fish, do I keep it attached to the tube.

I stick the reel end of the rod sort of into my lap or between my knees. Many tubes have velcro bits on either side of the stripping apron lay your rod across these and fasten with the velcro before you start fiddling with fly boxes and cutting leaders Any more tips.

Take a piss before you go out and take some water (NO BEER!) with you. I’ve had problems with leg cramps brought on by lack of fuids. Dave Bolt UK

Ralph H

Response:

Question:

I would advise against wrapping any guide that’s bigger than you. -AR

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to. There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank.

Bad advice here! It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread. Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank. Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor. Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off. No problem. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank.

Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver. OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic. Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bad advice here! It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread. Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank. Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor. Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off. No problem. Actually, I think most manufacturers use non-NCP because most buyers prefer the look. It is true that you should never rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap, but then you would always use a finish, so whether the thread wrap alone would be strong enough over time to hold the guide is academic. Go for the strongest wrap you can and use non-NCP thread except for trim rings.

Great post, Lyman. My 15 years of building custom fly rods for myself, others, and commercially confirm everything you’ve said. In my rod repairs, I have never encountered a situation where blank damage has occurred when removing a guide, even on rods that had been wrapped 25 years ago. It just takes care and patience. I use standard thread with no color preservers on 90% of the rods I build. The bottom line is this technique is the best way to obtain a wrap that closely matches the color of the blank. This "stealthiness" has invaded the fly rod industry. Just take a look at Sage’s new SP line or Winston’s IM6 rods and you’ll see why the process looks so good. Ryan

Response:

If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to. There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. Bad advice here! It is actually quite easy to remove a guide wrapped with non-NCP thread. Done correctly, there will be no damage to the blank. Simply cut through the wrap and epoxy with a single edge razor. Slice along the guide foot to help avoid nicking the blank. Once you get started, simply slip your fingernail under the wrap and it will peel off. No problem.

Are you kidding? What kind of "epoxy" are you using? When applied without color preserver the finish soaks through the thread and comes into direct contact with the blank. I have encountered no epoxy that will "peel off" of anything. Every time I’ve tried what you mention, the thread/finish combination has turned into a solid mass. I’ve tried exactly what you describe and cut along the guide foot with a razor. When I pulled off the guide (with much effort) the rest of the wrap/finish stayed right where it was and left a nice solid wrap with a trench gug out where the guide foot had been.

Response:

I used straight epoxy with no color preserve and had my rod spinner break down during the night. I woke up wih big bellies in all my wraps. I just cut them off fairly easily with a rasor and re-wrapped the whole rod. It wasn’t a big project to remove the old wrappings.

Response:

Quoting "DavidC.Benjamin"<dcb from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly <I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for <guide wrapping on a rod I am building. Up to this point <I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied <with the results when finished. David – If you use non-NCP thread withoput applying color preserver it will become somewhat transparent when you apply the rod finish. How transparent will depend on the color thread used. If you look at some factory rods its easy to see which brands do not use color preserver as the guidefeet show thru the wraps. If you use color preserver the non-NCP thread will have a sparkley coloring as opposed to the flatter colors of the NCP thread. It’s really personal preference which you prefer more. Jim Carlisle

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building. Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished. Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color. I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights. However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP. I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want. Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated. I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished? I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building. Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished. Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color. I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights. However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP. I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want. Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated. I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished? I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

But… If you use no color preserver, you take away the option of ever replacing a guide if you need to. There is no way to remove the wrap without destroying the blank. I think your mass production types are more interested in eliminating a step from the manufacturing process (properly applied and allowed to dry, color preserver would add about 24 hours) than blending the color of the thread into the blank. You are correct however that the wrap will be stronger when the epoxy finish is applied without color preserver. OTOH, I’ve been told that when properly done, the wrap alone should provide all the strength required to hold the guide on the rod and you should not rely on the finish to make up for a loose wrap.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building. Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished. Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color. I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights. However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP. I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want. Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated. I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished? I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there? I think many of the major fly rod manufacturers use non-NCP thread with no color preserver. This is not the way they finish those cool convetional salt water sticks. You will get a transparent result with no color preserver on standard thread. This gives them a clean look with the thread blending with the blank and also allows the epoxy to penetrate the thread better to bond with the blank. I have been selling rod building supplies for over 30 years and have heard almost every story imaginable. If someone has better info I will not be shocked as I have been wrong before. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

I always use color preservative to provide the ability to replace the guide (it WILL happen) and to seal the underwrap/blank wrap. In addition I find that the application of epoxy is easier (resulting in a much better finish) since I don’t have to hunt for gaps in the thread (the preserver fills it in). Of course as you say there are a million stroies and a million ways …. "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

Response:

Using that dark thread on a similarly-colored blank, you shouldn’t have any trouble. I build a lot of salt-water "standup" tuna rods on black Seeker blanks, and use medium blue non-NCP A thread for base wraps. It works fine–as does the even lighter grey "gunmetal" thread I’m now using on a pair of Shakespeare Ugly Sticks. Just be careful to use enough coats of color preserver, and soak all of the wrap. I usually use 3 coats half-strength and 2 coats full strength (Clemens "Brilliance" brand) before applying the epoxy coats. If you see "bleed-through" with the color preserver that doesn’t disappear when the preserver dries, you have a problem. Redo that wrap.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building. Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished. Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color. I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights. However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP. I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want. Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated. I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished? I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

There is a very good chance that the thread will become somewhat transparent when you apply epoxy. The way to solve this problem is to use colour preserver. One of the best brands available in my opinion is U40 Color Lock. I think you will be pleased with regular thread over NCP thread. This type of thread has stronger highlights when used with color preserver, and I think looks much better than NCP. As well, an added bonus is that Regular thread is a little stronger than NCP as well it is not as porous, therefore, you will not have the same bubble problems that may occur with NCP. Ian Scott Wishbone Custom Rods http://www.headwaters.com/wishbone

Response:

I am seeking advice on the use of non-NCP thread for guide wrapping on a rod I am building. Up to this point I have used only NCP threads and have been very satisfied with the results when finished. Recently, I bought a Thomas & Thomas Horizon blank and it is a dark blue in color. I plan to wrap it using a dark blue colored thread (Navy Blue) with light blue and gold highlights. However, when ordering the threads I found that the Navy Blue (Guderod #066) does not come in NCP. I am worried that when coated it will become transparent — which I definitely do not want. Skip Morris’s book says that if you do a trial wrap and soak it with water, you can see what it will look like when coated. I did so and it was not transparent and I am satisfied with the way it looks and hopefully will look when coated. Question: has anyone out there had any experience with this "problem" and will it really remain non-transparent when finished? I hope to wrap the rod within the next few days, finish it this weekend and fish it on the 27th or 28th. As you can imagine I hope to get feedback "very" soon. Thanks in advance! Keep your fly dry, David p.s. Lyman, are you out there?

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Question:

These references to the periodic cicada have me excited for the next time I stumble on the emergence of a cicada "brood". There are two types of periodic cicadas (as opposed to the few annual cicadas that emerge each year), the 17 year and the 13 year cicadas. I encountered one of them in 1991 in central PA. An extraordinary number of cicadas filled the stream valley in late may. The zip zip sound of the few annual cicadas in the back yard was replaced by a constant whirrring sound as literally millions emerged. Those that fell onto the water dissapeared in a swirl as the largest of the trout (those only brought to the surface by the Green Drakes) sucked them under with no problem. Our hearts pounded as we tried our largest floating flies to attract them. In the end our imitations were not good enough, but my new spun deer hair bodied flies with red squirrel tail wings will always be somewhere in my fly box – just in case…. As for emergence throughout the Eastern U.S., I believe that each individual brood (covering some limited geography) has its own cycle. My fishing buddy and I are in the process of writing to Penn State University to learn whether a brood chart is available for PA. Jeff Shafer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An article in today’s paper discusses the imminent hatch in the Eastern U.S. of billions of cicadas in their 17 year cycle. They are huge, winged insects and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what it was like during the last hatch in ‘79 ? Any suggested strategies or fly patterns we can use ? Do the trout readily take them ? They do have a tendency to fall in the water. I’ve seen trout take them on the Gunpowder but you could probably count on catfish, bass, and just about anything big enough to eat them taking one. A large unweighted muddler should have a passable contour and when properly presented should make the necessary ’plopping’ sound to initiate a strike. It make take a few days for the fish to realize that the cicadas are food since they are big enough to scare off the less aggressive fish. – David J. Ebinger 330-453-5180 Ebinger Equipment Co. Fax 453-7113 http://www.bright.net/~ebco/

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writes: Spent the summer on Cape Cod in 79 and the Circadia hatch was wild. Dark brown beetle looking creatures if I remember. But hey it’s been a while. The hatch is incredible as it matures in about three days. They don’t stay around too long. About a week was the total duration. I’m sure the trout take them but for the short period ot time the hatch is around it’s not worth tying for.

No way! I was in Mashpee in 79 and the browns on Mashpee-Wakeby killed the Cicadas during the entire hatch and could be fooled long afterward. I ran the 4-H camp there and fished nearly every day. Smallmouth were especially suseptable to any large bodied fly during that hatch. Bill — Bill Fling Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE FAX (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353 Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353 ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’ ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

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An article in today’s paper discusses the imminent hatch in the Eastern U.S. of billions of cicadas in their 17 year cycle. They are huge, winged insects and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what it was like during the last hatch in ‘79 ? Any suggested strategies or fly patterns we can use ? Do the trout readily take them ?

They do have a tendency to fall in the water. I’ve seen trout take them on the Gunpowder but you could probably count on catfish, bass, and just about anything big enough to eat them taking one. A large unweighted muddler should have a passable contour and when properly presented should make the necessary ‘plopping’ sound to initiate a strike. It make take a few days for the fish to realize that the cicadas are food since they are big enough to scare off the less aggressive fish. — David J. Ebinger 330-453-5180 Ebinger Equipment Co. Fax 453-7113 http://www.bright.net/~ebco/

Response:

Spent the summer on Cape Cod in 79 and the Circadia hatch was wild. Dark brown beetle looking creatures if I remember. But hey it’s been a while. The hatch is incredible as it matures in about three days. They don’t stay around too long. About a week was the total duration. I’m sure the trout take them but for the short period ot time the hatch is around it’s not worth tying for.

Response:

An article in today’s paper discusses the imminent hatch in the Eastern U.S. of billions of cicadas in their 17 year cycle. They are huge, winged insects and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what it was like during the last hatch in ‘79 ? Any suggested strategies or fly patterns we can use ? Do the trout readily take them ?

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Question:

I will be making my first trip to the boundry waters in early June and would appreciate any recos regarding what would be the most appropriate footwear (boots) for use during the day. I have many choices for while at camp, but, I’m uncertain as to what would be best for during the course of the day where we will be in and out of the canoe portaging. Thanks! Galen

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I have worn L.L.Bean "Bean Boots " for years and can’t say that I have seen anything better. These boots have leather uppers and rubber bottoms and are about as watertight as a ducks butt. The basic requirements "as I see em" are: 1. Boots need to provide good ankle support, portages are sometimes "a bit on the rugged side " and two or three days from civilization with a canoe & pack to carry is no place for an ankle sprain. 2. Boots need to be reasonably water resistant. You will we wading and slogging thru mud in many places. 3. Boots need to be reasonably light and comfortable. Do not try to break in a new pair of boots on the trip, it’s no place for blisters on the feet either. Enjoy your trip to the BWCAW and E-Mail your Federal legislators today and encourage them to defeat the Oberstar bill(see postings this newsgroup) that would reduce the wilderness protection status of the BWCAW.

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I gave up several years ago trying to keep my feet dry in the BWCA. I bring a pair of good boots for canoeing and portaging, and a light pair of tennis shoes for camp fishing etc. My boots are always wet after a couple portages. Scott

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I will be making my first trip to the boundry waters in early June and would appreciate any recos regarding what would be the most appropriate footwear (boots) for use during the day. I have many choices for while at camp, but, I’m uncertain as to what would be best for during the course of the day where we will be in and out of the canoe portaging. Thanks! Galen

I posted this question in rec.boats.paddle two years ago. I got a wide range of responses, with the majority of respondents suggested hiking boots for the portages. We did that, and we were glad we did. A few attempts at doing the short carries in the Tevas that we wore in the canoe led to near-disasters. SInce then, some folk have reported that waterproof L.L. Bean boots served well on the trail and on the water, but I haven’t tried that. The idea of wearing waterproof boots in a canoe doesn’t appeal to me. It would detract from the wonerfully relaxed feeling of being on the water. Which part of the BWCA are you entering at? Charlie — Charles Shopsis, Dept. Chemistry Adelphi University, Garden City NY 11530

Response:

I found that Teva sandals worked great when I went on my first BWCA trip last year. They are light weight, dry quickly and provide great traction when wet. Depending on the time of year and degree of difficulty of your anticipated portages you may want to consider sandals in place of boots. Chuck

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I wear nylon hip waders (snug) and my fly fishing wading boots. I can go out pretty deep, and wear whatever I want under the waders. I stay dry. The waders are snug and since BWCA/Quetico has very little current to deal with, I don’t think there are any big saftey concerns. My buddies all had high rubber boots, and had some trouble getting them dried out after accidnetally stepping in too deep. They said their boots were clamy. P.

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There are many different recommendations for footware in the BWCA. Partially it depends on where and when your trip will be. Some people just wear sneakers, others rubber boots. Frequently recommended by the experts is LL Bean’s "Maine Hunting Shoe" (rubber lower, leather upper). Myself, I’ve worn everything from cheap nylon hiking boots to Teva sandals and the Bean boots. For easy portages, the sandals are good from late July on. But earlier than that the bugs will feast on your ankles! Something with ankle support is recommended for most portaging, especially with heavier loads or over the rougher portages. You definitely want something that will not come off in muck. Its not unusual to have to slog through 6 inches of muck (and I’ve heard reports of people up to the waist in the muck on Yum-Yum portage!) You don’t want to loose your shoe in a foot or two of muck when you’ve got a canoe on your shoulders! Ken — WinQwk 2.0 a#0

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I led trips in the BWCA for years and I never strayed from my K-Mart "Texas Steer" boots. They cost like $20 and were just perfect. Other people I know bought expensive Red Wing boots, logger boots, or gore-text quasi-hiking boots but they always fell apart. My cheap K-mart boots did the trick. Save your money!

Response:

Some other boots that you might look at are army combat boots. They are lightweight and don’t cost much either. Matt Johnston Look me up on the Internet. http://www.vt.edu:10021/M/majohnst

Response:

I will be making my first trip to the boundry waters in early June and would appreciate any recos regarding what would be the most appropriate footwear (boots) for use during the day. I have many choices for while at camp, but, I’m uncertain as to what would be best for during the course of the day where we will be in and out of the canoe portaging. Thanks! Galen

I too have spent a lot of time trying to get foot wear in the BWCAW right. What I hit upon was why fight the fact that you are going to get wet. I use the military jungle boot and depending on the temp either wool socks or neoprene booties. Instead of trying to stay dry I expect to get wet and plan for it. It turns out that this is three season foot wear. Later, Garry

Response:

This may already have been said, but I’ve found that boots are pretty useless while canoing and portaging in BWCAW. You will end up having to step out of the canoe in water higher than the boot at some point (unless it’s hip waders), and I’ve tromped through sucking mud well up my shins on more than one portage. What most of the outfitters recommend is Tevas (or the like) or aqua socks while canoing/portaging, and some dry shoes for camp. I go ahead and bear the weight of hauling my Goretex boots in a pack – it *will* rain, and dry feet in camp can be such a comfort! Enjoy your trip to the BWCAW and E-Mail your Federal legislators today and encourage them to defeat the Oberstar bill(see postings this newsgroup) that would reduce the wilderness protection status of the BWCAW.

Please! Jerry Houston, TX Howard Lake, MN

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Question:

Feb. 20, 1995. Central Oregon. First day out in an early spring for the High Desert of Central Oregon. 100 miles from my home on a nearly deserted desert lake, my first fish was 21" Lahoatan Rainbow. Caught it from the shore in about 3′ of water. I used an Olive green wolly bugger fly on an intermediate sink line. The fish was the first of about 15 I took in 4 hours of fishing. All were over 15". The second in size that day was 19", I put 2 18" back as well as 3 17". I am told no one will believe me, and that is good because I would not want more competition for Central Oregon fishing than we already have. We begin fishing at Ice off and fish until winter ice on. Most of the time I fish off the bank, wading out 2′ to 3′. The Plumber, from Bend. Oregon

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Feb. 20, 1995. Central Oregon. First day out in an early spring for

the High Desert of Central Oregon. 100 miles from my home on a nearly deserted desert lake, my first fish was 21" Lahoatan Rainbow. Caught it from the shore in about 3′ of water. I used an Olive green wolly bugger fly on an intermediate sink line. The fish was the first of about 15 I took in 4 hours of fishing. All were over 15". The second in size that day was 19", I put 2 18" back as well as 3 17". I am told no one will believe me, and that is good because I would not want more competition for Central Oregon fishing than we already have. We begin fishing at Ice off and fish until winter ice on. Most of the time I fish off the bank, wading out 2′ to 3′. The Plumber, from Bend. Oregon This posting was made by my brother and we didn’t get the word wrap taken care of. If you fussed with it the first time, try again now as I have edited it to fit my e-mail system. I don’t know what it did on your monitor. This is an honest posting. I envy my brother’s ability to fish … so much so that after all these years of spin-casting with quite good success, I’ve begun to fly fish like him. Last summer, he and I fished this lake. I was skunked while he caught and released several nice trout. He kept two which I took home to Idaho for SEVERAL meals. Best fishes Keith Drahn

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Feb. 20, 1995. Central Oregon. First day out in an early spring for the High Desert of Central Oregon. 100 miles from my home on a nearly deserted desert lake, my first fish was 21" Lahoatan Rainbow. Caught it from the shore in about 3′ of water. I used

an Olive green wolly bugger fly on an intermediate sink line. The fish was the first of about 15 I took in 4 hours of fishing. All were over 15". The second in size that day was 19", I put 2 18" back as well as 3 17". I am told no one will believe me, a nd that is good because I would not want more competition for Central Oregon fishing than we already have. We begin fishing at Ice off and fish until winter ice on. Most of the time I fish off the bank, wading out 2′ to 3′. The Plumber, from Bend. Oregon

Great job on first fish of the season, I just got mine today (3/16)!! I’ve been trying for the last 3 days. I live at the junction of the Clark Fork and the Bitterroot in Montana, so I should be able to hook one anytime I want. But the weather has been hell. First it snows a little, then rains, then the wind blows. I have been shivering for days. The best bet is a nymph/streamer, but I hate that. But today it all worked. The sun came out and about 15 minutes later, so did the bugs. I had 3 hits but couldn’t get the fish on, just pulled it out of their mouths. I was reading the water best I could, but getting nowhere. Then I cast to the deeper, swifter current….the wrong place. It was one of those times. The fly hit the water and WHAM. The fish wasn’t too big (10"), but it JUMPED and fought like a good Montana rainbow. You can be I’ll be out again tomorrow. Spring or almost-spring fishing is alright!! PS, this river water ends up going to Washington/Oregon. I’d like to try it there some time.

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