Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Tying

Early inventory

admin — Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Our family just exchanged a few gifts early. My daughter helps run a local zoo (great source for peacock feathers) and has to go in early Christmas morning to make sure all the animals are okay, so we won’t have our usual early AM gift swap. My youngest son gave me an organizer for my tying stuff that is *awesome* and wasn’t even on my list. It’s about 1/4 the size of Frank Reid’s box, so it is HUGE. Now I just have to go out and buy some more stuff to fill it. Looks like I’ll have to wrangle some more $$ by the time the fly fishing show comes to town. Back to bonding with the family and drinking a little toast to them – single malt, of course. I’ll tip my glass to you all as well. I’ve said it before, and at the risk of going maudlin I’ll say it again: I’ve gotten a great amount of information from this group over the past few years that has vastly improved my on-stream enjoyment and performance, and I appreciate every bit of it. I’ve also met some people I’d never have met without ROFF, and would have been a poorer man for not meeting them. — TL, Tim

Response:

. I’ll tip my glass to you all as well. I’ve said it before, and at the risk of going maudlin I’ll say it again: I’ve gotten a great amount of information from this group over the past few years that has vastly improved my on-stream enjoyment and performance, and I appreciate every bit of it. I’ve also met some people I’d never have met without ROFF, and would have been a poorer man for not meeting them. — TL, Tim

well, maudlin is a word for people who can’t feel what you have just expressed. of course, that is just an opinion from yfitons wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Spammer

admin — Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

says…

Any Dick or Willie will do? Running & ducking, Herman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had been getting spammed with about 65-75 junk emails per day. I tried to unsubscribe from their lists but that seemed to only waste my time and increase the amount of spam. So this week I have been using the program called "MailWasher." Download it from CNET or mailwasher.net. It is free, you can check the headers on your email server before downloading it, and you can mark emails to be bounced back to the sender. Clicking the Bounce box on a message sends a fake "address not found" message to the address that the message originated from. This reduces the possibility of more spam e-mail coming from this address. I am down to about 10-15 spams per day.

Thanks, Dave. I downloaded this and have it in place. Remarkably easy to install and use. Almost as soon as I was done, I received mail from a spammer. Tim c’mon, spam me NOW sukkas

Response:

Anybody else being spammed per e-mail with this? You have been selected to receive this email because of your interest in fly tying or fly fishing. Flytiers.com is one of the most extensive online stores ( Rest snipped). Just wondering. TL MC

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody else being spammed per e-mail with this? You have been selected to receive this email because of your interest in fly tying or fly fishing. Flytiers.com is one of the most extensive online stores ( Rest snipped). Just wondering. TL MC Got it! Makes You feel like one of the chosen few, doesn

Really amazed!!!

admin — Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Further, the waters recounted in the TR?article are not unique to that area, there is fishing like that all over this country.

Clark, just watched a FF program on OLN (tv station) in New Zealand with a kiwi guide called Dick Frasier. Have you heard of his lodge? Said it was 3 hours north of Queenstown. It look sort of rain foresty, so I figure it was near the west coast. Some amazing browns and bows. I was serendipitously reading your post at the same time. Tell ya, I gotta get back there and soon before the missus tell me it is time to start to replicate ourselves (time to turn off those old Hawkwind records) …. Best, Gary PS Do you know your stuff is on Morpheus, the MP3 sharing program?

Response:

As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible.

Well, that IS interesting in light of; "Well as I am fully booked this season I doubt it’s really an issue." I am pleased to announce that by this logic I am fully booked for the season as an Italian-English translator, an AK-47 pilot, a brain surgeon, and a double naught spy. Wolfgang wanna buy some red-hots?

Response:

As an employee of a lodge, I am no longer in business. I am an employee. Sorry that’s so hard for you to follow. I can quite honestly state to anyone here who wishes to retain me as a guide that I cannot take the booking. Further, if anyone here wishes to book at Poronui they should do so through appropriate channels, but I would recommend that they should be looking, at peak times, a good deal of time away as the lodge space is at a premium. If they cannot get in there then there are a number of great lodges happy to look after them. My recounting of fishing in the area was only because I thought it was of interest. As I have stated previously I am happy to provide information to anyone coming to areas I know who do not use a guide or lodge. Further I would add, Poronui is without doubt the leading lodge in New Zealand, many say, the world. Space is at a premium, it is difficult to get space there for any angler. They certainly do not need me to run infomercials for them and I do not. If you wish to book there you would not do so through me. My bookings with them, as an employee are done and I am solidly booked until the end of the season. These things aren’t up for debate, but your desire to do so makes me question your motives.. do you fish or just try to piss people off who do? Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Well, that IS interesting in light of; "Well as I am fully booked this season I doubt it’s really an issue." I am pleased to announce that by this logic I am fully booked for the season as an Italian-English translator, an AK-47 pilot, a brain surgeon, and a double naught spy. Wolfgang wanna buy some red-hots?

Response:

As an employee of a lodge, I am no longer in business. I am an employee. Sorry that’s so hard for you to follow.

That makes complete sense. At first, I actually thought you were going to quit fishing to resurrect your professional singing career. Fishing seems like the way to go if you ask me. –Steve

Response:

The singing career is going great, I just missed fishing. I am fortunate that I can record my new album in winter, perform at some festivals, maybe even do a small tour during the winter months. If my time away from fishing told me anything it was how much I enjoyed helping others enjoy their ‘trip of a lifetime". There is no greater joy for me. To be paid for it is a bonus. Since I was small I have been consumed by catching trout. I still am, but having experienced near all of it’s thrills in this country my best way to enjoy the passion is to help others experience those things as well. Some here try to bring me down for that passion, I make no apology for it. That said, I have similar passion for my music, Country music, no matter how much I love it, and no matter how much recognition I have got for it just doesn’t pay the bills. I don’t know you Steve, but I am assuming your post was an attempt at a dig at my singing career. If not, I got you wrong. I approach my singing career pretty simply. I do it for those who enjoy it. Those who don’t aren’t in the picture. I bear you no ill and hope all your fishing adventures are good ones. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an employee of a lodge, I am no longer in business. I am an employee. Sorry that’s so hard for you to follow. That makes complete sense. At first, I actually thought you were going to quit fishing to resurrect your professional singing career. Fishing seems like the way to go if you ask me. –Steve

Response:

As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Well, that IS interesting in light of; "Well as I am fully booked this season I doubt it’s really an issue."

I thought that was interesting too.

Response:

. Since I was small I have been consumed by catching trout. Some here try to bring me down for that passion, I make no apology for it.

i have tried to follow your posting pattern, and those posts that you must be referring to, above; i can find no evidence that would support your conclusion. i just think you walked into a barroom brawl and made a hasty decision concerning who you punch first. wayno

Response:

Nonetheless, the way I see it, and that is what truly matters to me; if Mike’s ISP had cut him off, then they would have believe they had seen wrong doing on his part–according to their policies, if Mike decides to leave ROFF and return again, a million times, for whatever the reasons, that is his prerogative.

Certainly he does, but just as a few get all worked up over Ginkles, and some just a little miffed, the same applies to Mike and his constant, overly-dramatic Sarah Bernhardt exits and returns, and on more than one NG/board – he’s pulled this same crap on several of them. It tends to be a pattern for Mike, and as far as I’m concerned, just as he has the prerogative to do that, others have the prerogative to call his tantrums as they see them. IOW, basically, if he’s going to make his leaving a topic, he should expect it. Why, assuming completely pure motives, should he always feel the need to make "an exit" and not simply quit reading, posting, of whatever, for such time? If he didn’t do it for the attention, craving and wanting the "oh, no, please don’t leave!" nonsense, he wouldn’t do it. Mike and all you Euros, enjoy your ‘clave!

Absolutely! And the non-Europeans who may attend, as well. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Op

Response:

About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? Clark

About the lying and duping…. can you show me one instance of it?

Response:

About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it?

If an informercial is SPAM, you just posted the instance. — Charlie…

Response:

As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? If an informercial is SPAM, you just posted the instance. — Charlie…

Response:

Further, the waters recounted in the TR?article are not unique to that area, there is fishing like that all over this country. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Clark About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? If an informercial is SPAM, you just posted the instance. — Charlie…

Response:

About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike didn’t lose his ISP, he closed his accvount. The ISP posted here saying they weren’t shutting him down. You have been duped by Connor’s lies and please for sympathy. Clark Well Mr. I don

Henry Fork flies

admin — Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers. for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

O-O-OH…I thought he got you and wayno confused and then misspelled "vice"….well, I guess that’s what I get for taking as confusion what could be easier explained by simple stupidity… TC, R

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

…and don’t forget the "copywrite 2001." You wouldn’t want a bunch of ambulance chasin’ copyright lawyers hounding you into the afterlife. Kevin

Response:

Jeffie writes: just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

Well, hell…… I thought your headstone should read: "It weren’t the fried eggs that done killed me!"

Response:

no…but if you’d seen me runnin out of santeetlah creek lookin suitable-for-wipin tree leaves whilst tryin to get disentangled from vest, waders, clothing and all the time havin to maintain tight sphincter control…well, it sure did look and feel like a death dance…and, true, it tweren’t my fried eggs, twas that bvd laplac mornin cookin what nearly done me in. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeffie writes: just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… Well, hell…… I thought your headstone should read: "It weren’t the fried eggs that done killed me!"

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph.

Jeff, are you leading a double life? Op

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph. Jeff, are you leading a double life? Op

You must stop these jealousy tandrums Opie boy. You sexuality will soon reveal itself. George Gehrke "Dr. of Confusion"

Response:

you guys are slayin’ me…. thankee! –waldo

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

gawdam stan…that’s cold. have you no pity? …only if you include mike’s verse as well… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers. for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Jeff: I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… jeff

OK. purely out of pity! Jeff tried and tried, before he died, to tie up lots of lovely flies, He got his wish, caught lots of fish, and now happy here he lies. TL MC

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

He’s probably thinking of the ones you gave him when the two of you were fly fishing the Pyrenees after you ran the bulls that time. — Charlie…

Response:

grin-ing out loud funny…. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s probably thinking of the ones you gave him when the two of you were fly fishing the Pyrenees after you ran the bulls that time. — Charlie…

Response:

OK. purely out of pity! Jeff tried and tried, before he died, to tie up lots of lovely flies, He got his wish, caught lots of fish, and now happy here he lies.

…perhaps i’ll have two headstones then. thanks mike. jeff (master of the mutant fly tie)

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph.

well, there it is fellers. for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Jeff: I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

Response:

Oh dear, the kiss of death, and you were doing so well! TL MC

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers. for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Oh dear, the kiss of death, and you were doing so well! TL MC

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek

don’t discount terrestrials on silver creek…also look for ties the trout are less likely to see all the time…. Eugene K.

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions from the western experts as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer. Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek. Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff while my mentor had size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch. Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase. Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier] but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Would you be willing to send me your contact for your tier(s) in banglerdesh? — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Trade him for a war bonnet as they are great for at least a hundred dozen flies. Joe, you ask a difficult question. About anything you use out east will work in the west. It often is a good idea to save a little cash and buy flies that are hatching during the time you’re in the area. All you need is to buy one for a pattern and spend evenings tying up a few of these and a few of those. Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph. Are you any relation to the Chief of that name? : ) George Gehrke Western Hatches R Us

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek don’t discount terrestrials on silver creek…also look for ties the trout are less likely to see all the time…. Eugene K.

Good suggestion Gene. You remind me of the time a size 12 Gray Wulff was torn to bits on the Henry’s Fork when everything else that was coming off wasn’t any bigger than a size 18. Moral: You never know what will work until you try it.

Response:

i happen to have a few artist proofs of miller’s mutant… how much lucent you got left? i’ll also consider some of that enron stuff…been hearin a lot about it lately… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions from the western experts as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer. Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek. Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff while my mentor had size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch. Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase. Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier] but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer. You can’t do much better Joseph.

well, there it is fellers. for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Response:

—

So rw what flies will catch a big brown at the farm? They were sitting in the weeds around me but this old southern boy came closer to stepping on them than catching them. IJ

Response:

— So rw what flies will catch a big brown at the farm? They were sitting in the weeds around me but this old southern boy came closer to stepping on them than catching them. IJ

You might try a big bunny leech. Or get out at night with a deer hair mouse, or even a real honest-to-God mouse on certain sections where it’s permitted. There’s a young lady I’ve heard about, who lives right on Silver Creek, who tickles those big browns under the cut banks. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff while my mentor had size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.

You can use a bare hook in those unbelievable Silver Creek trico hatches, as long as you drift it downstream right into their Hoovering mouths. It may be unethical, but it works. Those hatches are so dense that you have to hose down your waders after fishing. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Pestilence response – Usenet Ignore Penalty

admin — Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup. This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.) I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since. It’s here merely as an FYI. However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post. end of my msg. After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?" It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements. We must take the next steps, as well: We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt. We must not mention them *at all*. In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network. They cease to exist. The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question? In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names. However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort. Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques. They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods. My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll. There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here. The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible. (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it. (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.) This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge." If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it! :) But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision. Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge. I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

Hey, Fishreeler, I’ll see you at Penns. I will show you a lovely stretch of water called Frank’s Pool, found by your friend Frank Reid. Of course, Peter Charles and I cleaned out the pool before Frank could land a fish, but that’s another story. And, much to the disgust of other roffians, I’ll make a nympher out of you.

Response:

As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World.

Believe it or not, that is sometimes the exact perspective needed. Your early experiences and lessons learned can be valuable advice to another just staring out. Not everybody here is an expert, nor is everyone who comes through the door. Even the jaded and experienced will take joy in your progress. Post what you know, what you learn, what you experience. It’s as valuable and welcome here as any of the esoteric baloney the experts post. Welcome to the nuthouse. Joe F.

Response:

fishreeler welcome! Look, as long as you avoid words like "meniscus" and the "the Kreh Effect" [ : - ) ], and try not to blatantly sell things [ ]. you can pretty much say what you want without fear of too much in the way of reprisals. Most of the group is interested in discussions relating to our mutual interest in fly fishing. I personally have never been flamed for asking a dumb question, and I think that if you ask begineer type questions that are interpreted as sincere you’ll be fine. Periodically, someone will take umbrage to a question if they believe there is some ulterior motive to the question- like a potential spammer trying to get a sales op for instance. I butted in to my first clave at Ennis 2 years ago after being a lurker for a only a few months. Met some great people with a wide variety of fishing, and other, experiences. I believe this is the real fun of this group. I can wander down to the local fly shop and BS about fishing the Blackfoot whenever I want- but to hear about North Carolina, or the San Juan, or Wisconsin is pretty interesting- to me. The claves are fun too because you can put a name to a face and a real person and learn something from some damn fine fisherman – sometimes even fishing related stuff. As with all groups, there is a tremendous variety of knowledge and experience present. Take advantage, have fun, and be responsible about what you post. john

Response:

Ken, I would hope that all who read my post understood that I took no sides in the matter. I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy. Being that everyone has been in the realm of ROFF for a while, I believed that maybe, just maybe, my opinion would breath a breathe of fresh air into the room. There are no sides for me, you enjoy fishing, I enjoy fishing, everyone in here enjoys fishing. I say that that puts me on the winning team overall. I may not be as eloquant in writing in my posts as others, but nonetheless, the point is given. Thanks for the reply, and I cant wait to go to Penns! Fishreeler——<< "Danno Mattice"

Response:

Fishreeler? Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away. If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home. You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Hmmmm!!! Frank never told me about that. But I could always find a soft tree out by the creek and fall asleep by the sounds of the water instead of listening to the rustling of a tutu. Fishreeler came about when I was trying to find a screen name on AOL. That is when I was with AOL. So, I have adopted the name as my own now. Seems that all you other fisherman and women took all the good names at the time. However, I kinda like the name and it grows on me. Not to say that I am an expert, but have been doing it for a while. Thanks to all for the warm reception. Fishreeler—–<< Danno Mattice "Cant think of anything quippy to put at the end of my post yet, I havent seasoned enough in ROFF yet"

Response:

… I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy.

As a new guy, your opinions on "the whole matter" are not likely to be well received, inasmuch as they’re not only negative but uninformed. Your opinions and observations about our shared avocation, on the other hand, are most welcome and may very well be a breath of fresh air for some. See you on the stream. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.

And another note to new readers. You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety. In fact, none of us have.

Response:

made me think of trolling…

Response:

Something I am not only grateful for, but that I count on and plan for, I assure you. That way, I can say any damned thing I wish – Jeff C. secretly yearns for TBone’s rather unusual sex life, for example – and by the time those who read only various parts attempt to get their stories straight, no one can remember what it was that I claimed or denied to have said… TC, R …that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…unless you can prove otherwise, in which case, google made a mistake…

Response:

First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. Where I have addressed "you," it’s more addressing the point raised than _you_ specifically, but as your post inspired it, take what you will from it, too. It’s all IMO, YMMV. As to Ginkles, read his posts and responses to and regarding Frank Church and the fly swap, if none other, to see just a portion of what he is all about. I rarely advise others against anyone, preferring to allow them to discover and choose for themselves, but regarding Ginkles, I’ll make an exception. However, if you do choose to befriend him, I’d not hold that decision against you. That said, a few things, all IMO and, of course, YMMV: First, you seem to be lumping every slight you may have observed, real and what you perceive as real, into the same pile, and IMO, that’s not correct. Of course, there are, um, (generally good-natured) debates where the language may get heated and sarcastic, but likely as not, the apparent "combatants" would drop the debate and go fishing, drinking, whatever together at that very second were it possible. That is a far cry from attacks by and on Ginkles and others who do or attempt to do real damage. FWIW, there are only two people, on all of ROFF, past and present, who I would not associate with, Ginkles being one. As I’ve said it publicly before, so I feel nothing wrong in restating the obvious. The other, who shall go unnamed, I’d be willing to give the benefit of the doubt should we ever be faced with that situation as the "rift" is, IMO, strictly a difference in personality, not me thinking them as being truly warped. I suspect that most, if not all, here on ROFF would say a very similar thing. Secondly, any of the, er, debating that takes place is strictly voluntary, and I’ve not seen anyone "attacked" as some seem to imply without the "attackee" getting involved, either by diving in, suggesting that those doing so are wrong, offering opinions on why they are wrong, tips on how to be right, etc. The best rule on these "debates" is to get in or stay out, because wading in the shallows is still in the water. If you do wade in the shallows and still get bit, remember that damned little of it is personal, and don’t take it as such. This brings us to a cause of some real problems – getting personal. Don’t do it. What I mean is going beyond the person on ROFF. No family members, job/career, etc. unless you are DAMNED sure of what you are doing and willing to deal with the sometimes-dire consequences of making a mistake. For example, there are several lawyers here, and while a general humorous remark about lawyers is likely OK, "jokingly" accusing one of malpractice is likely gonna get your head torn off, and rightfully so. As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy.

Then you’d never post anything, and that’s a pity. There will _always_ be someone more knowledgable than _everyone_ , and they may or may not even participate on ROFF. So who cares? 99.99 percent of FF’ing and the related info, on or off ROFF, is opinion, guesses, observations, and other highly subjective things. Heck, the rankest newbie might be the only one in a group with 100 experienced FF’ers to guess, opine, observe, etc., correctly. As to asking questions, of course, sometimes, someone will have a bad day, not had sex with their wife, been forced to have sex with their wife, gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, or a host of other things that leads to teeing up on someone for no apparent reason. That ain’t ROFF, USENET, or anything computer-specific, that’s life, and if _that_ is what worries a "newbie," they are screwed before they start. If you take that sort of thing personally, IMO, ROFF ain’t the problem. So ask away, and if someone tees up, either ignore it or give it back in spades, but remember that pissing and moaning about it will just invite more. Again, that isn’t ROFF-specific, that’s life. As to ROFF itself, go back and look through some threads – when it does happen, it isn’t the "feeding frenzy" some imply, it’s generally one person who, for whatever reason, got their back up, while others either gave the requested info or called the person on their conduct (or both). Which brings us to the next tip: there is a "pecking order," and again, this isn’t ROFF-specific. There is no real "clique" in that newcomers are excluded simply for being newcomers, but there is a core of people who have been around awhile. People who have been around awhile do develop a sort of "seniority," most come to "know" each other over the years, and many have actually met or have met in a "7 degrees of separation"-kinda way, and so, can get away with personal liberties, such as chastising, that newcomers (An aside – ya know, I think I like "newcomer" more than "newbie") cannot expect to be able to do. And yet again, this factor isn’t ROFF-specific, you’ll find it on just about any NG, because that’s the way all of life seems to be. Remember that although this is, to a large extent, not a "face-to-face" medium, and that creates a new, and for some, odd, context. There are people here who "know" each other, care about each other, know details that only friends would know, share things only friends would share, talk regularly as friends do, etc. The only "new" thing about some of these friends is that they’ve never _all_ physically met. But they are friends, nonetheless, and so, act just as two/several friends would act if in the same physical space as opposed to the same electronic space. And just as with them being in the same physical space, a newcomer can’t expect to simply walk up and be treated as one who has a history with the group. That doesn’t mean he can’t walk up and begin the process. So, then, what’s stopping you, or any other potential new friend, from "walking" on up? I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field.

Fuck ‘em. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner.

Basically, other than the tackle differences, and the delivery of same, it’s all just attempting to fool fish with stuff that, amazingly, actually manages to sometimes fool them. Nobody lives or dies based on FF’ing knowledge, so a newcomer is as welcome to be wrong as the rest. A bunch of good stuff snipped, because it didn’t seem to warrant comment. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Respectfully submitted,

Response:

Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect. These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself. It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

These are the kind of people who cheat at solitaire and then are happy that they won. Weird. — rbc: vixen Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

fishreeler, i’m looking forward to wetting a line with you in may. fer gawd’s sake, don’t take wading lesson’s from frank

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. … Thank you both for posting what you did. …

Oh yeah, chiming in on a hypocritical screed from the village idiot is the perfect way to win friends and influence people around here. Looking forward to meeting you at Penns. You’ll find this place a lot more entertaining when you put some real faces with the screen names. The flyfishing info itself around here is unmatched anywhere I’ve ever seen, it’s a very rare case when a politely posed (and I mean that in the context of netiquette) query goes unanswered. The "entertainment" is admittedly an "acquired taste". Hang in there and wait til after Penns before going all judgmental on us. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

To George’s Post,

Dan, hang in with us. It not all pissin’ into to wind. This is a Jeckyl and Hyde kinda place, one moment its the Weakest Link on Jerry Springer and the next its linking arms with Barney the Purple Sauropod, singing Kum By Ya while we try to conjure the spirits of Lee Wulff and the Grand Dame. As I told you this a.m. Post some trip reports, ask a few salient questions and hang on for the ride. Don’t be afraid to get flamed. An insult is like a shot of scotch, it only affects you if you accept it. You will be welcome at the clave (hey, you don’t snore do you?). Oh, the things you will see; lawyers in horizontal striped longjohns, Pirates’ BVDs (best veiwed from a distance), flaming MBA’s juggling boxes (did I get that word order right?), druidic clavemeisters praying to the river Gods, old lech’es luring young mothers into the water for a back rub, naked coed volleyball teams and Amish strippers. You will also see some of the best fishermen and fisherwomen (I’ve just used up my PC quota for the year) in the world. Not only are they good at what they do, but they are great at teaching. The Pirate and Makela on nymphing, Littleton on fly selection, Petah on streamers, Fleischman on cigars, and I’ve even heard that one or two folks can teach you about scotch. By the way, the price for use of the spare bunk in my tent is a week’s supply of Yeungling. Good luck and welcome to ROFF. Frank The Younger (and better looking) Reid

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

Yes. But coincidentally there is also a George there who has also spammed unashamedly, and trashed the reputation of his "business" (such as it is) virtually beyond repair. He refused to see the wisdom of participating like a Walt, Bill, Brian, Al, etc. who all have enriched both their personal lives and their businesses, no doubt, at the same time. Rather, he chose the path of the fool (he "chose poorly" to quote "IJ and the Last Crusade"), and suffered equally in both areas of his life. It’s always fascinated me when someone chooses self-destruction. Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect. These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself. It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup. This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.) I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since. It’s here merely as an FYI. However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post. end of my msg. — After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?" It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements. We must take the next steps, as well: We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt. We must not mention them *at all*. In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network. They cease to exist. The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question? In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names. However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort. Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques. They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods. My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll. There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here. The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible. (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it. (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.) This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge." If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it! :) But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision. Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge. I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

To George’s Post, As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work. I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right? I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish. This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank. In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to. THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer. Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel. Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

Response:

It simply takes discipline Peter

I’m on your side Pete. But for Pete’s sake, Pete, you know most of these guys smoke and drink and quit doing anything takes real discipline, which they don’t have . . . so that thesis goes right down the toilet. These guys just don’t have will power. Thing is Pete, I’m more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, or even women. Life sucks, but it sure is better with you in it Pete. Hang tough padre, keep up the good ideas; George Please note the equal opprotunity response I returned to you? You’re welcome Pete.

Response:

So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf? Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls. Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll. He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away. He probably increased his posting. That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

I would expect that anyone who indulges in this behaviour and is subjected to this consequence, would escalate his/her trolling in an effort to break the discipline of the group. If the group cracks, things go back to normal. If group discipline holds, the posts *will* disappear. People who indulge in this behaviour abhor silence. It simply takes discipline and the willingness to stick with it over the long haul. If some people continue to indulge the troll for their personal enjoyment or out of a warped sense of fair play, they weaken the effect. Whether a diminished chorus would remain sufficient amusement for the troll, is difficult to say. 100% compliance is a practical impossibility and it is not needed. The group replies have to drop below the threshold of the individual’s need for attention. Once that need is not being met at a sufficient level, the individual will move one. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Well, I choose to go to tools, options, send and uncheck the send immediately box. this allows me to respond vigorously, vent my feelings and get a load off my mind. then the next day I can re-read the stuff in my outbox and see if I still want to send it… Is something like that what you are talking about Jeff…..? john

Response:

Frankly Stan, with a little cooperation of mature debating and without having a need to throw rocks, it is easy to agree with you because you just said it better than I ever could. As I had posted, most sincerely to Jeff’s opinion, I’m only a barometer of Roff. I had explained so many times, talk nice to me and we and many others will talk nice to you. I am surprised about rec.sports.golf has the same problem because personally, I cannot suffer fools and I see you are the same because you are not the foolish kind nor are you in roff to prove anything, as I am. I just happen to be a fighter. I may not be tactful because that only works with gentlemen. I believe this will all tone down once roff realizes that darwinian isn’t a license to act like the wild west. I, like you enjoy learning new things and roff does have some mighty smart people in it. It also behooves many of my email determines how some college graduates who are now in the white collar trades can lose their cool so quickly in roff with each other and so often? For sake of good order, it would make no difference in roff if I left, which I did for four weeks recently. Roff STILL found others to feed upon and there is no denying this fact. Roff is like the snake that always has to bite someone because it is its nature. That old saying is in fact very true as it applies to this group in general. I have observed that on the side, there are men in roff which I regard as top drawer. That they must try and communicate in such a beehive of raging maniacs of false, insulted sensibilities (or any other excuse they deem fit) to exposes their frustrations, short of hitting on their wives or daughters, is frankly . . . so amazing! Roff, in so many ways is but the mirror of those who deal daily with bad bosses, supervisors, duel personalities in the social scheme of things that they come to roff to "dump on anyone" they can, just to get even. Frankly, what I don’t know about Roffian behavior and why people such as Ken Fortenberry, David LaCourse, and his ilk like Charlie Choc behave as they do is much greater than any of us know. Which means, they can’t help being the way they are! They are just pissed at the world in general. Frankly, I’m really a very funny guy in person and I have a great sense of humor Stan. Venting hostilities with humor would serve a good many in roff a lot better then swearing at each other. There is a knack at putting down anyone cleverly, if that is their need but it is my opinion it takes a better man to lift someone’s spirits rather than jumping on a Newbies just to show off one’s intellectual dominance. I have always said that when you put two people in a room, as in roff, one mind will always try and dominate the other. When it comes to two gentlemen who respect each other, that is seldom the case. They simply enjoy talking to each other. Roff has forgotten how to enjoy talking with each other. I notice the fondness in general of the folk in North Carolina have for each other and it is gentle jousting but it is intended in friendship. Outside that area, it doesn’t generally extend to the west coast, have you noticed? Those who play together get along better together has merit and that is why I’ve always thought a Conclave would be a good idea and they have proven to be just that. Now then, since I’m on a roll here, I should explain that the reason I have yet to want to attend any Conclave is I don’t believe in trying to be comfortable with anyone that in person, they smile at each other as if they never attacked each other then go home and be so vicious with each other when they are gone. This Jeckle/Hyde persona just doesn’t wash with me. It is two faced, it is cowardly, and it doesn’t allow my nature to trust such people away and/or in person. A man should be exactly as he seems here as he should be in person. Understanding, reason, giving allowances, benefit of the doubt, all go a long ways. Certain Roffians could care less how reasonable someone tries to be with them. They don’t want that. They want the chaos to continue and they will do anything to keep it going. Roff has some professional trollers who’s job it is to influence public opinion and I will leave it at that. They have that writing style that points to them like a flashing red light. They are somewhat knowledgeable but they are also totally predictable. Over a good period of time Stan, we all get a sense of where we want to be in Roff. I know there are several hundred fly fishing people who watch and read roff periodically and they leave in disgust. They leave and won’t post not because they did anything disgusting, but because Roff is its own best enemy. People want to visit friendly people, and when ROFF as a whole allows the type of personal demeaning behavior of people like Ken Fortenberry, or any of the others that talk the same way to others to continue, it simply is not the place they want to be. Roff is just poorer for it and it behooves me and many others how so many in roff are fearful of correcting what they think are their friends? Possibly, you don’t agree Stan, but you’ve written me in private before and your messages have always been on a high plain and enjoyable. Why can’t all the others talk to each other with the same respect and interest? Take me out of the picture, the banter never stops. It is time to stand up and be counted and I sure know I can stand up as reasonable as anyone else in roff. As they will say in Utah . . . "let the games begin." Just don’t change Stan, because I sure haven’t. ; ) Your pal, George Gehrke "the house pest"

Response:

You know Jeff? This is so full on nonsense I can’t believe you actually believe this stuff? Case in point. Just recently, a gentleman asked a question about whether he should weight his nymphs or not. To the last man in ROFF, EVERYONE said yes. Okay. Fine and good. I Post in Roff my opinions and experiences gathered in over 50 years in fly fishing partner. I was the only one to say, "No, you don’t want to do that," and I proceeded to explain the "why of it." Seems, according to the responses to "George’s Post" how hard everyone tried to tear the years of experience I had with Nymphing, apart. Now then, do you care to deny this? I wrote a very intelligent, factual, informative piece in which I’d wager my life upon, everyone had received "food for thought," because they never heard this "stuff" before. Do you care to deny this also? Just because I am the mirror of ROFF, doesn’t mean I’m a Village Idiot at all. The idiots are those who stoop to lower levels because "they didn’t think about or know what I know" and it galls them to listen to a winner. Big dang deal. Ask me if I care? All you guys should realize I haven’t changed one bit since the first day I arrived to help out in Roff. What you all haven’t learned is that I’m my own man. You talk to me nasty and like the mirror I am, you will get back exactly the same in return. The worse you give the same about you receive. Haven’t any of you learned this yet? You talk nice to me and others and you get exactly the same in return. But you know what? A lot of you are too stupid to have figured this out in several years now. LaCourse goes back and pulls out a nasty piece of response but he doesn’t bring up the post it was responding to, does he. Roff’s whole history, is one of the Key Board Colt .45 The great equalizer. So if some of you will start reading this post with a little open mindedness, you might get insight not into me so much as much as you will about yourselves. Case in point: Every one of you go back and match YOUR POSTS to me. The good get good and serious responses. The Ugly get slapped right back in the face. Simple as that. Now then, I will admit to past "trolls, or baiting roff," which isn’t hard to do, but I haven’t done that for a while. When I do this, I put in this: ; ) cast . . . mend, etc. and this some of you know is my way of stirring some fun up, but I can’t remember ever starting something in a hateful or mean manner. Outside that, I’m the same "George the Fly Fisherman" you have always known. The problem with ROFF is never have I seen the truth exploited as well where "Familiarity Breeds Contempt." Some of you would do well to stop and read this carefully because I’m not pulling any punches with you now. I have had many well know fly fishermen, and all of you know I am close to many of them, who have said to me . . . "I have seen what a bunch of jerks are in Roff George and if I were to come there to help, sooner or later they would start the same things with me." Well, this is TRUE! Not all, those who have ever piled upon my back are the same ones that would do it to others, no matter what the famous fly fisherman was. Why? Because deep down, some of you bastards have an insatiable need to demean people who have made it up the ladder of success. I see the same thing happen yearly with the qualified gentry of fly fishing. One was in a bar having evening cocktails with me. Before long, our table was filled with fly fishermen horning in. They weren’t invited to join us, but it comes with the territory. So here I am, letting you guys in on what goes through our heads because we ARE human. We don’t say anything, and soon all the chairs are full, others are pulled up and then there is a standing crowd. It isn’t long, someone makes a wise crack to my well known friend, where upon, without comment . . . (not much) he gets up and quietly leave for his room. I do the same. Why is it, some of you guys simply are jerks? This isn’t MY opinion but it is the common thread I receive from all around this world about YOU GUYS! I didn’t say, "about me," but YOU GUYS! A bunch of you think you’re righteous because you have a common bond of being a bunch of junk yard dogs who dare anyone to come in here and invade your domain. This is nonsense. There is a lot of talent watching your every thread and I’m talking fly fishing talent that would bury Roff! BURY IT! They don’t come here because they hate your guts and that is the truth. However; these same people are writing me behind your back saying one common thing. "Hang in there George. Don’t quit. I love everything you write regarding fly fishing, etc." Now this is the truth. You Sludge Slugs of Roff can feed on your own hateful nature, fill your egos by trying to demean others and as I said before, you really are only demeaning yourselves. What you see with me is what you’re going to get. I’m not going anywhere gentlemen. I’m staying right here. If you don’t want to read my stuff, go party somewhere else because this is "MY SANDBOX" and your here talking to me because you’re invited. What I mean by that is, you talk nice to me and if I respond, that is the invite. That’s the way its going to be. Take it or leave it, and frankly I’d prefer if some of you simply leave it because you do nothing but waste good air. So you do have a choice. George Gehrke "Fly Fisherman" http://www.gink.com A Site full of bastards

Response:

Starting a Flyfishing Club

admin — Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Anyone here have any sage advice on how best to get a fly fishing club started? How would one go about applying to become a FFF club? Robert http:www.wwjournal.com WarmWater Fly Tying and Fishing Its there waiting for you!

Response:

I have started about 3-4 fly fishing clubs all of which are still going today in various parts of New Zealand. All I have done is obtained a suitable public venue, advertised at sporting goods stores and flyfishing shops and in the local newspaper. (keep receipts so the club can make reimbursement once established) At the first meeting just lead the way and conduct it like an AGM with an initial election of officers and away you go. Affiliation to the FFF is a grand idea but should probably wait until you have a committee or membership to make that decision. However more information can be obtained here… http://www.fedflyfishers.org Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone here have any sage advice on how best to get a fly fishing club started? How would one go about applying to become a FFF club? Robert http:www.wwjournal.com WarmWater Fly Tying and Fishing Its there waiting for you!

Response:

Nice post and thanks for the info. a lurker, Ronald

Response:

first determine if you have enough people interested. Call a organizational meeting. Your local paper will probably carry the notice free. If you have enough interest Write other clubs for their by laws..modify for your club..put all of the power with the board of directors Register or incorporate in your state as soon as your formed..takes the liability off of the officers To keep peple interested you have to have a program or speaker at your meetings Becoming a FFF club just takes money…not too much though

Response:

Denver FF Show — need help

admin — Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Padishar, when we going fishin’?

Response:

ROFFians, I need a favor. If you are attending the upcoming Denver show and are willing to help me look for something while you’re there I would be most grateful. Send me a private email if you can help. I’ll send you a "blem" hat from the Maine Clave or the upcoming Penn’s Clave to make it worth your while –Steve

Response:

—– Steve, we have a fly fishing show starting today here in Portland, Oregon…send me a private email if you want me to look for something for you (or any Roffian for that matter) and I would be happy to look…love looking anyway… —- Padishar Creel "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work…I want to achieve it through not dying." – Woody Allen

Response:

Steve, we have a fly fishing show starting today here in Portland, Oregon…

I hadn’t heard about the Portland show, where’s it at? Thanks, - Ken

Response:

It’s at the Oregon Convention Center. It’s an ISE, not purely FFing. http://www.sportsexpos.com/attendees.html JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, we have a fly fishing show starting today here in Portland, Oregon… I hadn’t heard about the Portland show, where’s it at? Thanks, - Ken

Response:

Outstanding, I can take the train. Now just have to find the time to go. Thanks, - Ken

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s at the Oregon Convention Center. It’s an ISE, not purely FFing. http://www.sportsexpos.com/attendees.html JR Steve, we have a fly fishing show starting today here in Portland, Oregon… I hadn’t heard about the Portland show, where’s it at? Thanks, - Ken

Response:

It’s at the Oregon Convention Center. It’s an ISE, not purely FFing. http://www.sportsexpos.com/attendees.html JR

—— I guess this is a bit of a ‘trip’ report about the Portland Outdoor Show. The show is somewhat small (we do have another one in February and it seems to have more emphasis in fly fishing). Because is was such a smallish show and few attendees, I got to speak with Jim Teeny at length and sat in on a wonderful presentation on Fly Fishing Trout Lakes by Brian Chan. I talked with Brian for a few minutes after his presentation, a very generous man with his time and expertise. The fly tying presentations were incredible with nice video cameras and monitors to watch the tiers in action. The fly fishing books suppliers were in to this show big time and I really enjoyed leafing through the latest offerings from the publishers. All in all, I had a good time, but I am still looking forward to a large fly fishing show SOON. —– Padishar Creel "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work…I want to achieve it through not dying." – Woody Allen

Response:

Fly Fishing Show

admin — Mon, 01 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

No, no, no! Al Gore created the internet! — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ahhh yes…a delicious irony ! Use the internet for fun and profit but bemoan the pioneers that created it !

Response:

Al WHO? JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, no, no! Al Gore created the internet! — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! Ahhh yes…a delicious irony ! Use the internet for fun and profit but bemoan the pioneers that created it !

Response:

I think this was the motto of the techie slugs before the world economy pulled the plug on their kiddie ride and the thing is coasting to a stop.

It’s a blip, Wayne. Focus on the big picture. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Do you have any details about where, etc.? I did some searches but came up with zip. I live in Woodbridge, VA about 25 mi. south of DC and wouldn’t mind making the run. It’s only about an hour and a half drive on a weekend.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a fly fishing show weekend after next in College Park Md. Just a heads up to let all the Va., Md., Pa. and traveling flyfishers know something is coming besides snow. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

weekend. Where: The Reckord Armory, University of Maryland, College Park, Maryland When Jan 13, Sat 9 – 6; Jan 14, Sunday, 9 – 5 Admission: $12 for adult, $20 for two-day pass, $2 for children under 12 I’m just south of you in Spotsylvania. I’ll be going up either Saturday or Sunday. I’m pushing for Sunday because Cathy Beck is doing a Ladies Only casting seminar and I want my distaff half to participate. (listening Joe???) — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

2) So…they the give one of their own staffers (JohnG) "Angler of the Year" ? That seemed a little odd to me…oh well…"Writer of the Year"…"EX-Bum of the year…". John’s a neighbor now. I hope to meet him someday…I’m sure he’s a hell of a good guy.

Small point of clarification sir, Gierach was last year’s Angler of the Year. This year they named the minnow guy…Clouser. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

Response:

check flyfishingshow.com I have been considering going but not sure it would be worth traveling 4 1/2 hours. Tim,near Roanoke, Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you have any details about where, etc.? I did some searches but came up with zip. I live in Woodbridge, VA about 25 mi. south of DC and wouldn’t mind making the run. It’s only about an hour and a half drive on a weekend. There is a fly fishing show weekend after next in College Park Md. Just a heads up to let all the Va., Md., Pa. and traveling flyfishers know something is coming besides snow. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

check flyfishingshow.com I have been considering going but not sure it would be worth traveling 4 1/2 hours. Tim,near Roanoke, Long

Tim, this is a pretty good show. A very good opportunity to compare equipment, see some great fly tiers in action, and sit in on some terrific info. sessions. Harry Murray’s smallmouth seminar a couple of years ago was excellent. If you’re coming that far, make a mini- vacation out of it and throw in a little tourist stuff as well. Joe could probably recommned a couple of great seafood restaurants in the area. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Count me in, just 20 miles from my house. I go that far for groceries. Frank Reid There is a fly fishing show weekend after next in College Park Md. Just a heads up to let all the Va., Md., Pa. and traveling flyfishers know something is coming besides snow. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

If you’re coming that far, make a mini- vacation out of it and throw in a little tourist stuff as well. Joe could probably recommned a couple of great seafood restaurants in the area.

Alas, you’d have to drive another hour north to find any restaurants I’m familiar with. And even then I’d have trouble giving directions to the good local places. I know where to turn, but don’t remember any street names. Haussner’s closed down & downtown Charm City has changed quite a bit since I frequented there. Despite it’s close proximity, I avoid anything inside the Capital Beltway like the plague. Joe F.

Response:

Wayne, The tourist angle is what I have been throwing at my wife…I would really like to meet Mr. Murray. I talked with him quite a bit last spring planning a trip the SNP. He is a VERY nice gentleman. I’ll let you know as time approaches if I am going to go…maybe I could meet some of you guys in person. Thanks, Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – check flyfishingshow.com I have been considering going but not sure it would be worth traveling 4 1/2 hours. Tim,near Roanoke, Long Tim, this is a pretty good show. A very good opportunity to compare equipment, see some great fly tiers in action, and sit in on some terrific info. sessions. Harry Murray’s smallmouth seminar a couple of years ago was excellent. If you’re coming that far, make a mini- vacation out of it and throw in a little tourist stuff as well. Joe could probably recommned a couple of great seafood restaurants in the area. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Frank, are you REALLY gonna open yourself up to "I can find Frank because he smells like…..(fill in the blank)" comments?? The RRR attendees alone can come up with a dozen or more fill-ins!! Tim should be the one with the ring in his nose dragging a chain attached to the wrist of a woman bent on seeing all of DC in 12 hours then heading off to an evening of shopping madness at Potomac Mills Outlet Mall. Joe will probably be laying off the stogies because the little woman will be along while Joe gleefully tries to explain the wonderful places she can travel to and beautiful sites she can see, all the while not having to cook or wash dishes while she engages in her new hobby of fly fishing (ya think she’ll buy a word of it?)! I’ll be there looking at chicken feathers if Tysons of New Boston, NH doesn’t come through on their promise of an extra plucking this week. I don’t think my package of rare Platypus feathers will arrive in time for the fly swap. My contact in ACT promised to get them out right away after the bank transfer took place (I stole them for only a few hundred bucks!!). — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

Saturday noon is sounding promising for an impromptu ROFF gathering. SWMBO still seems open to the idea of attending; but I’m smelling the "I’ll just nod until something better comes up" attitude. I need to go to find some tying materials for the swap. Noon Saturday then? Pink carnations?

Response:

tying materials for the swap. Noon Saturday then? Pink carnations?

Careful Joe! Frank will be showing up with JUST a pink carnation! :-} — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

I look better in red or daisies (where can I buy some stickum?). For those that are interested, you can drop SWMBO off at the new Arundel Mills Mall near my house. Hell, I go there weekly to genuflect in front of the future home of the east coast’s biggest BASS PRO SHOPS and OUTDOOR WORLD (opening Fall 2001). The mall is really nice and you can do the "racetrack" pattern (its set up in a circle) in about 17 hours. Plenty enough time to play at the Fly Fishing Show and there’s enough for SWMBO to buy at the mall that your purchases at the show will be miniscule in comparison. There are also a ton of restaurants in the area. Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tying materials for the swap. Noon Saturday then? Pink carnations?

Response:

Also, at that show at 1030 on Saturday is a seminar: Central Pennsylvania Trout Streams and their Hatches – Dave Rothrock Should be good for anyone going to the Penn Clave Frank Reid There is a fly fishing show weekend after next in College Park Md. Just a heads up to let all the Va., Md., Pa. and traveling flyfishers know something is coming besides snow. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

How ’bout a ROFF meet and greet at the entrance table at about noon on Saturday. I know a couple of folks from ROFF and should be able to find them (just sniff the air for Joe’s ceeegar) but this will give a common meeting place. Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayne, The tourist angle is what I have been throwing at my wife…I would really like to meet Mr. Murray. I talked with him quite a bit last spring planning a trip the SNP. He is a VERY nice gentleman. I’ll let you know as time approaches if I am going to go…maybe I could meet some of you guys in person. Thanks, Tim check flyfishingshow.com I have been considering going but not sure it would be worth traveling 4 1/2 hours. Tim,near Roanoke, Long Tim, this is a pretty good show. A very good opportunity to compare equipment, see some great fly tiers in action, and sit in on some terrific info. sessions. Harry Murray’s smallmouth seminar a couple of years ago was excellent. If you’re coming that far, make a mini- vacation out of it and throw in a little tourist stuff as well. Joe could probably recommned a couple of great seafood restaurants in the area. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

There is a fly fishing show weekend after next in College Park Md. Just a heads up to let all the Va., Md., Pa. and traveling flyfishers know something is coming besides snow. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

There is a fly fishing show weekend after next in College Park Md. Just a heads up to let all the Va., Md., Pa. and traveling flyfishers know something is coming besides snow.

snow jobs ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer & Urban Forager It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

Response:

Sorry Tim, the snow jobs all ended in November; probably some intern jobs opening up though! Could be an opportunity now! Build it and they will come! I think this was the motto of the techie slugs before the world economy pulled the plug on their kiddie ride and the thing is coasting to a stop. Slug lines at the share-a-ride are shorter and unemployment lines are longer. Why did the techie cross the road? Couldn tell if he was coming or going, his net was down! — Wayne (can’t wait for deregulation of the utility industry! You think natural gas prices are high NOW!) To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

Response:

Ahhh yes…a delicious irony ! Use the internet for fun and profit but bemoan the pioneers that created it ! Nice Mr. Divinity…nice. OBROFF: Fly Rod and Reel…regarding the nov-dec 2000 issue… 1) the interest piquing headline "is catch and release obsolete" forced me to buy a copy for the first time in a long while – amazing the leap that ‘c&r is harassment’ while ‘pointless’ fishing is not…all I could think of was paint ball deer hunting. Clearly the next ‘logical’ step arrived at by many others but really missing the mark complete…Sorry FR&R & Pete Bodo, but if you want to get some honest responses, take it to roff…you guys are at like ‘post zero’. 2) So…they the give one of their own staffers (JohnG) "Angler of the Year" ? That seemed a little odd to me…oh well…"Writer of the Year"…"EX-Bum of the year…". John’s a neighbor now. I hope to meet him someday…I’m sure he’s a hell of a good guy. 3) Ted Williams is a whiner of the 1st magnitude and unless FR&R terminates his column, I’ll probably not buy another in a while. Nor will I dignify the thing with a letter to them. Did anyone else notice that he complains of 2 cycle engine pollution yet in the ‘infamous’ lifting-power jetski ad. What is that anyway…a flats rippin’ 200HP Evinrude? C’mon Williams when are you going to learn that the earth does not rotate around your [blindered] views. You know…it’s an ironic delicacy (almost) to see that Flyfishing periodicals do not even stay pure to flyfishing….politics will creep in, inevitably. What I hate is the ‘assumed correctness’ of them. 4) What in the hell is that book reviewer thinking ? He uses the amazing annals of Lee Wulff as a podium for his own chest beating [claims to have photographed some poachers, F&W ignored him...]. Stick to the book reviews man…you were doing so well. 5) I was troubled by some of the photographs…one of a ‘crab’ fly was on a hook that was amazingly rutted and ‘zircon encrusted’…I’d never fish it…much less photograph it for a major magazine…the other one that just well…bugged me…was the photo of the gear review dude and his photo-grays…one lens is always darker than the other, for no apparent reason. 6) This guy ‘reinvents’ the wooley booger by tying it on a dubbed body ? And what’s really sad…hell…I paid for it ! 7) So Skip writes an article on egg flies yet has only fished them ONCE ?!?!? That’s *amazing* ! He *is* good. There’s an ad for a patent attorney who will register fly patterns…GAK GAK GAK ! Your pal, — TimW Techie Slug, Halfordian Golfer & Urban Forager It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

Response:

Nymphing methods?

admin — Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I was taught by a guide to make a big upstream mend to lift the strike indicator and most of the leader behind the fly. That way the fly reaches the fish first and will drift naturally without drag. Only problem is that strikes are real hard to detect. I’ve also seen people let the strike indicator drift first which drags the fly but strikes are easy to detect. Now I’ve read the article on nymphing in Fly Fishing & Tying and I’m really confused. Any suggestions? LWC

Response:

It depends. An upstream mend is the zeroth-order approximation of what you want to accomplish. (Pardon the nerd-speak.) What you really want is a drag-free drift. If the current is at all complex that might require all kinds of downstream mends, cross-stream mends, upstream mends, and anything in between. That’s one reason why nymph fishing is hard. If you do manage a drag-free drift, the take will often be seen by just a slight twitch of the indicator. Or sometimes the indicator will just shoot underwater with the power of the take. Or it could be anything in between. It depends. I think learning to tell the difference between a real take and a drag-induced bump, or a bump over the bottom, is a big part of effective nymph fishing. Setting the hook on false takes, with multiple-nymph rigs, weight, and indicator, leads me to more snarles and tangles than I want to deal with. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I think that your guide had you do this to give the fly time to sink to the correct level as well as to allow for a drag free drift. In order for an indicator, of any sort, to work as an indicator, there has to be contact, or almost contact, between it and the fly. If the indicator isn’t reacting to a take, it’s not "indicating." If you’re trying for a drag free drift, the difficult thing is to have enough contact that you will see a take but not enough that it effects the drift of the fly. On long drifts this often means a series of small mends. Usually there are only a few times during a drift where the fly is "dead drifting" at the same time that you have contact with it. Each mend disrupts the drift and the contact. If you don’t mend, although you maintain contact, the fly drags. This is one reason why it often takes many casts to a given lie before you get a discernible take. When you add in the dimension of getting the fly to the correct depth as well as staying in the feeding lane, even more casts are needed. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was taught by a guide to make a big upstream mend to lift the strike indicator and most of the leader behind the fly. That way the fly reaches the fish first and will drift naturally without drag. Only problem is that strikes are real hard to detect. I’ve also seen people let the strike indicator drift first which drags the fly but strikes are easy to detect. Now I’ve read the article on nymphing in Fly Fishing & Tying and I’m really confused. Any suggestions? LWC

Response:

I was taught the same thing, and the hits can be really subtle. I mainly use a strike indicator as a reference point for where my flies are to the fish. If I see a flash (wink), or its mouth open (white cotton ball) I’ll set the hook. The only place that I have fished using the strike indicator as an indicator has been in fast water where I don’t see the fish. Like "The Box" in Idaho or the Madison in Montana. Although, using it on the Madison was almost pointless, because they hit so hard.

This is why there are a number of different nymphing techniques. For example, fishing for trout feeding on relatively large insects in heavy water is much different from targeting fish feeding on midges in slow water. Sometimes indicators help, sometimes they hinder. Willi

Response:

Good vibrations

admin — Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment. Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me. Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes. But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before. Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid. I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer. So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks. I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off. Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators! Keep it up. There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated. I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off. I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting. Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em! I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff: May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.) And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over. And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave. It’s in the fine print. Peter

____ You sure could have fooled me Pete. LOL! — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Sorry to see ya go Jeff but I understand. Thanks for your help and opinions offered in the past. Tight lines. Natty Before you buy.

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave. It’s in the fine print. Peter ____ You sure could have fooled me Pete. LOL!

How would you know? You’ve never worked up the cajones to attend a conclave. ps: That lipstick on your exhaust pipe wasn’t from a woman.

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile. You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man. I wish I had thought of that! ___ Good to have you around needling the junk yard dogs TBone.

The only junk yard dogs ’round here are those hanging out in your crazed mind.

Response:

ps: That lipstick on your exhaust pipe wasn’t from a woman.

And it probably included huge gobs of dried-up Skoal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Jeff said he’d take a break "for awhile". He’ll be back i’m sure. In the meantime I’ve been reading lots of good fishing stuff on ROFF lately. Jeff, keep me posted when you’re visiting NM. bruce h PS: Doc, Around here we spell it COJONES. Before you buy.

Response:

Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it?

No reason at all, Steve, other than the fact that they have a lot of friends here who’d like to hear from them from time to time. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you? Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it? –Steve

BINGO!!! Before you buy.

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile.

You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man. Your pal, — Halfordian Golfer It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave. It’s in the fine print. Peter

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile. You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man.

I wish I had thought of that! ___ Good to have you around needling the junk yard dogs TBone. — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/

Response:

Walt’s right Jeff ol’ boy, you live through a lot worse in the beginning! — Op –Absence and death are the same–only that in death there is no suffering. –Walter S. Landor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment. Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me. Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes. But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before. Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid. I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer. So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks. I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off. Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators! Keep it up. There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated. I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off. I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting. Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em! I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff: May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.) And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over. And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3 ahhhhhh bullshit! if you bug out, after having the cojones to show up at spring as your accelerating face-first towards that ominous grey granite boulder, i wish you the time to think… "ahwwwwwww..sheeeeeeettttt, i’m wearin’ a richardsons!"

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin

What? Did Jeff sign out of ROFF? I just can’t believe you guys. The last person I’d have expected to be thin skinned was JeffC, What a bunch of pussy sissy boys! Can’t stand to have certain combinations of characters displayed on computer sceens. Yuck! Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin What? Did Jeff sign out of ROFF? Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you?

I second the sentiment. Willi

Response:

Jeff, that library downtown is full of books I’ll never read…… john

Response:

Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you?

Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it? –Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment. Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me. Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes. But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before. Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid. I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer. So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks. I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off. Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators! Keep it up. There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated. I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off. I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting. Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em! I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff: May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.) And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over. And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

ahhhhhh bullshit! if you bug out, after having the cojones to show up at spring accelerating face-first towards that ominous grey granite boulder, i wish you the time to think… "ahwwwwwww..sheeeeeeettttt, i’m wearin’ a richardsons!"