Question:
Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.
More anecdotal stuff: Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout. I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly. But they all survived. Dave
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More anecdotal stuff: Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout. I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly. But they all survived.
Good point. Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments. Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived. I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.) But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.
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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her. The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened. Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop. That is simply wrong. Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop. That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike. The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight. It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it. We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight. When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal. This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff: Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout. I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly. But they all survived. Good point. Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments. Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived. I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.) But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.
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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?
I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer. I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river. It did die though. There was no mistaking it. No big deal really. I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all. Think about it. When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it? I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut. Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt
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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?
That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.
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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.
Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu
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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it. You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?
Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?
Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete
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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it. Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns. One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none. I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released. Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day. I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish. It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder. All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone. That’s an area of about four square inches. He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed. The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone. The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit. All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either. It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer. I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river. It did die though. … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt
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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone. My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping? (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment) I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home. I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them. With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving. There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped. Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it. There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott
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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone. My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.
just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do. and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris
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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all. Think about it. When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?
Not much. Maybe that’s the answer. Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much. When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal. Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.
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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t. Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds. Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?
Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.
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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.
Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution. The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke
george.vcf
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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t
necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone
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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution. The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you
see? Catercizes. Yes, I think I see now.
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I suspect you’re right. I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible. If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive. I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do. and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris
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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it. You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them. With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving. There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped. Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it. There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott
george.vcf
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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill. There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches. Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper. Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound. Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.
Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone
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Good point. Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments. Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived. I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.) But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe
I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"
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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them. With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving. There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped. Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.
IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it. There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott
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Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff: Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout. I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly. But they all survived. Dave
More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t. Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds. Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R
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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill. There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches. Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper. Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound. Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke
george.vcf
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I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound. All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal. On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding. The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom. They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding. As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them. With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving. There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped. Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill. There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches. Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper. Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound. Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound. All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal. On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding. The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom. They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding. As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them. With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving. There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped. Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas
Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances. We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death. I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die. Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly. I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal. I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive. In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding. They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them. If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.) Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman. I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting. If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html
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Question:
Greetings All, I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers in this area as to what ‘yak you use
Not from the area, but I have a couple of ‘Rides’ I use for fly fishing and they are great boats. I live in Atlanta but have used them off Tybee Island and also around the Port St. Joe/Apalachiciola area and have had no problems with them at all. — Charlie…
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Greetings All, I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers in this area as to what ‘yak you use Not from the area, but I have a couple of ‘Rides’ I use for fly fishing and they are great boats. I live in Atlanta but have used them off Tybee Island and also around the Port St. Joe/Apalachiciola area and have had no problems with them at all. — Charlie…
I’ll have to go test one out and see if it’s really possible to stand up in it like the chap depicted in the ad on their web page. Scott
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I’ll have to go test one out and see if it’s really possible to stand up in it like the chap depicted in the ad on their web page.
It is, but I’m not sure I could land a fish that way. <g — Charlie…
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Cockroach Bay is a "good area." Still relatively undisturbed. Too shallow for many powerboats. Rich in fish and birdlife. Also try the sandbar just north of the Cockroach Bay boat ramp and separating the outer mangrove shore from Tampa Bay. I used to wedge a paddle into the sand and tie my canoe to it; then, walk/wade the bar, casting off the side that seemed likely to be most productive. Got snook, trout, bonnethead shark, etc., there. Very pleasant even when fish weren’t biting. Jeff Jeff Harper jeff#doplay.com
| Greetings All, | | I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers | in this area as to what ‘yak you use and what are some good areas. I’m | considering a Scupper Pro TW or a Wilderness Systems Ride. I’m | thinking the Weedon Island area is a good place, and the flats area | between the Gandy and Skyway. | | Scott |
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Greetings All, I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers in this area as to what ‘yak you use and what are some good areas. I’m considering a Scupper Pro TW or a Wilderness Systems Ride. I’m thinking the Weedon Island area is a good place, and the flats area between the Gandy and Skyway. Scott
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Question:
Steve, How about sharing the outrageous p[attern.. This is one I have not heard of and would be most grateful for a reply. Thanks
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: Steve, : : How about sharing the outrageous p[attern.. This is one I have not heard : of and would be most grateful for a reply. Thanks : No problem. Let me explain how we came across this fly. My dad saw the pattern advertised by C.I. Tackle Co. of Battle Ground, Washington. He bought four and we took them with us on our 1992 trip to the Alaska Peninsula. The Pinks and Silvers went nuts with them. In no time, those four were gone. Since then we make them part of every trip since they catch quite a few different fish. The thing I did not like about these Outrageous (the ones purchased) was the hook. They are very poor quality. I bought just one more and use it as a pattern for tying my own. As I mentioned, I use a Tiemco 5263 hook, no.4. The thread color is orange. I tie them weighted, but be sure to leave enough room for the head, it can get cramped. The body is pink, using, well, it looks like dyed wool. I tie it so it completely covers around the lead wire and is about 5/8" past the bend of the hook. Then, there are two sets of feathers that go along each side. These feathers are pink and red, I use schlappin (sp?). Cut these feathers (use the ends) about 3 1/8" long and tie them just behind the eye of the hook. I tie them with the pink feather on the inside (closest to the body) and the red on the outside. Again, these go on both sides. Next, tie in some *electric blue* Flashabou on top, kind of between the two sets of feathers. This is tied in just behind the hook eye as well. Then goes the hackle. This is one orange and one red schlappin feather tied in a palmered style about 3/16" behind the hook eye. Use the orange thread to build a nice head and finish per usual methods. Now, just add water. The fish part will take care of itself! If I can find the old packaging from the materials, I will pass that along so the exact body material can be identified. Kindest regards, Steve Kernosky
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Since the subject has come up, I thought I would pass along some information concerning what flies worked on a recent trip to Alaska. Purple egg sucking leech-tied on a no.4 Tiemco 5263 hook. The egg was light pink to simulate the egg of a Chum salmon. With this fly, I caught King salmon, Chum salmon, Rainbows (lots!), Char, and Grayling. Really, this fly caught everything! Outrageous-Also tied on the no. 4 Tiemco 5263 hook. This fly took King and Chum salmon, rainbows, and Char. In previous trips, this fly has worked extremely well for Pinks and Silvers. Humpy-size 12. Caught Grayling and Char with this fly. The Char seemed to strike best when the fly was skated across the surface. The largest Grayling was about 22" (close to three pounds, maybe). Brown Drake-size 10. Caught Grayling (lots!) and a few rainbow with this fly. Mice-this is the first trip where I have tried mice and I was absolutely amazed. Char (upwards of seven pounds), rainbow, and even Grayling go after these things. I tied some using caribou hair. The final product was about an inch long but in the future I think I will cut this down just a bit. The fish would often just keep striking the little critter until they were hooked. For the entire seven days, these are the only five flies I used. I was fishing on the Alaska Peninsula through Blue Mountain Lodge, owned by Tracy Vrem. The lodge is located about 15 miles southwest of Lake Becharof. Without getting into too much detail (and sounding like an advertisement), Tracy conducts fly-out type fishing. The lodge itself is not really fancy. He has many places to fish within a short (say, twenty minutes) plane ride from the lodge. The fishing can vary from catching salmon on streamers to Grayling on dry flies. Thanks for you time. Best regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University
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