Question:

Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel.   That’s 150 freaking feet!! Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.) The Airflo shooting head system is super slick, never noticed the loops going through the guides.  I’m in love . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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[shoot].   That’s 150 freaking feet!!

Man that’s gonna take awhile to get back on the spool Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.)

You have rocks in a laundry that is big enough for a 150ft cast? Everything *is* bigger up there The Airflo shooting head system is super slick, never noticed the loops going through the guides.  I’m in love . . .

Noted. (The airflo bit At least when you lose the whole fly you usually realise pretty quick,   losing the damn point is a much more subtle affair in the implementation and detection … Steve

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[shoot].   That’s 150 freaking feet!! Man that’s gonna take awhile to get back on the spool

Marquis Salmon No.3 – not long Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.) You have rocks in a laundry that is big enough for a 150ft cast? Everything *is* bigger up there

Here’s a view of my washing machine. http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/whirlpool/spey_casting_the_line_layou… The Airflo shooting head system is super slick, never noticed the loops going through the guides.  I’m in love . . . Noted. (The airflo bit At least when you lose the whole fly you usually realise pretty quick,   losing the damn point is a much more subtle affair in the implementation and detection … Steve

Not with the big heads – there’s so much momentum it’s easy to snap it off and fish sans fly without noticing. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Here’s a view of my washing machine.

That the cable car line overhead? Joe F.

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Here’s a view of my washing machine. That the cable car line overhead? Joe F.

And how long will it take him to tangle his line in that ?  That’ll piss em off Scott

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Here’s a view of my washing machine. That the cable car line overhead? Joe F.

Yup, it used_to_be out of reach. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!!

In the U.S that’s only 100′

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Here’s a view of my washing machine. http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/whirlpool/spey_casting_the_line_layou…

S’a beautiful looking spot. Not with the big heads – there’s so much momentum it’s easy to snap it off and fish sans fly without noticing.

Yeah, thinking about it that sounds reasonable.  My only experience has been with lightweight (for heads) #8 #9 and the whole thing can "get out of shape" a lot easier than the conventional #4, & 6 WF setups I use.   I wonder how many Whirlpools there are world wide … I can think of 2 here in Aus. that I’ve fished … one in the salt and one in fresh.  I have pics of both somewhere, but your washing machine winds hands down for scenerics. Steve

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!! In the U.S that’s only 100′

My turn – BITE ME! Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!!

So how do you hook up with 150 freaking feet of line out? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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… That’s 150 freaking feet!! So how do you hook up with 150 freaking feet of line out?

Accidentally. — Ken Fortenberry

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Now if I can only get over my Whirlpool paranoia (losing flies on the rocks on the backcast.)

Have you considered trying a cut 850 grain Scientific Anglers Deepwater Express shooting head? I use a soft 8 wt rod in the surf and my preferred setup is about 18 feet of LC-13 connected to a running line.  I like having a short shooting head because sometimes the fish are in really close or they follow the fly all the way close to shore.  Whether I land the fish or not, I have a minimal amount of work to do in order to get the head out past the guides again in preparation for another cast since the head is so short.  Also, there are always dogs, kids, frisbees and who knows what else sneaking up behind me so the short head reduces the chances of incidental non-piscine hookups. A short head is also easier to lift back up to the surface when getting ready for the next cast.  You lose some distance and the transition from back cast to forward cast feels more abrupt (the latter can be minimized by altering your casting motion) but I really like it for the kind of fishing I do especially given that my St. Croix is a slow action rod. You could chop that SA DWE 850 grain head down to 15 feet and still have a 425 grain head. But Airflo has the fastest sinking heads.  That DWE 850 is rated at 9-10 IPS.  A 300 grain Airflo will (purportedly) sink just as fast. Mu

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Have you considered trying a cut 850 grain Scientific Anglers Deepwater Express shooting head? I use a soft 8 wt rod in the surf and my preferred setup is about 18 feet of LC-13 connected to a running line.  I like having a short shooting head because sometimes the fish are in really close or they follow the fly all the way close to shore.  Whether I land the fish or not, I have a minimal amount of work to do in order to get the head out past the guides again in preparation for another cast since the head is so short.  Also, there are always dogs, kids, frisbees and who knows what else sneaking up behind me so the short head reduces the chances of incidental non-piscine hookups. A short head is also easier to lift back up to the surface when getting ready for the next cast.  You lose some distance and the transition from back cast to forward cast feels more abrupt (the latter can be minimized by altering your casting motion) but I really like it for the kind of fishing I do especially given that my St. Croix is a slow action rod. You could chop that SA DWE 850 grain head down to 15 feet and still have a 425 grain head. But Airflo has the fastest sinking heads.  That DWE 850 is rated at 9-10 IPS.  A 300 grain Airflo will (purportedly) sink just as fast. Mu

I’ve done that before with a DWE 850 but I *really* didn’t like how they casted.  The Airflo Type 7 on a 15′6" rod isn’t a handful at all and can be brought in quite close.  The rod action allows some loading in tight in the event you just want to fish in front of you and the loops are so smooth, they’ll run through the guides with no problem. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Took the 15′6" 11 wt. Daiwa to the park at lunch for the first trials with the Airflo shooting head system.  I had on it a 45′ 12 wt. Airflo Type 7 shooting head with a 5′ leader – all attached to 100′ of Airflo running line and practiced my overhead casting with the big stick.  On the fourth cast, I pulled out the backing knot between the stripper and the reel. That’s 150 freaking feet!! So how do you hook up with 150 freaking feet of line out?

Ken’s right – 15 lbs. of steelie  or 30 lbs. of chinook doesn’t require any finesse – the fish hook themselves and with 15′ 6" of rod in the air, I can move a lot of line.  The furthest out I’ve hooked a fish so far has been about 80′-85′ on a streamer (below Lower Dam on the Rapid – about a 2 1/2 lb. salmon.).  There’s so much current pressure on the line that soon as you feel weight and tighten up, the pressure on the line sets the hook. Avoiding breaking off the fish, is the second biggest challenge.  It is real easy to overpower your tippet with that rod in those conditions.  Hooking up isn’t a big deal, getting ‘em to strike when things are slow – that’s the real challenge. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/whirlpool/spey_casting_the_line_layou… S’a beautiful looking spot.

Here is Mapquest’s rendition of the Whirlpool http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2DA6278 Looks like it’s about 900 across.  And that ain’t slack water in there. Look at the direction of the river (flows northwards).  I slams into the whirlpool in a northwesterly direction and then pours out northeasterly. Or maybe this is just the "shadow" Whirlpool Mu

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loops are so smooth, they’ll run through the guides with no problem.

Are those the seamless polymer loops?  My Rio intermediate shooting head has a loop with some sort of sleeve on it and it does not traverse the guides very well. Mu

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loops are so smooth, they’ll run through the guides with no problem. Are those the seamless polymer loops?  My Rio intermediate shooting head has a loop with some sort of sleeve on it and it does not traverse the guides very well. Mu

Yup, the Head loop is conventional looking but small.  The running line loop is the fused polymer type, very large so it can be slipped over a spool – very well thought out. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Mr Charles,   We are sorry to inform you sir that we will have to cry FOUL on the posting of that picture. To think that someone would have the cajones to post something like that only in the interest of teasing others. A pox upon you sir. Is there room in that whirlpool for 2? –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around.

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–SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around.

Then keep Epps out of the stew. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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Mr Charles,  We are sorry to inform you sir that we will have to cry FOUL on the posting of that picture. To think that someone would have the cajones to post something like that only in the interest of teasing others. A pox upon you sir.

nah, nah – I got my pox shots already – a pox back at ya Is there room in that whirlpool for 2?

Well sure, we can always fit in one more.  Just leave the pox at home. –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around.

Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles: –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter

Dave, 4.2L A6

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Charles: –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter Dave, 4.2L A6

Perish the thought! This only applies to those guys that drive (and there’s only a few left) those gray Grumman A-6’s. I’ve noticed they aren’t real good around gondola wires. –SteveC– Who lives far too close to 2 naval air stations

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Dave, 4.2L A6 Perish the thought! This only applies to those guys that drive (and there’s only a few left) those gray Grumman A-6’s. I’ve noticed they aren’t real good around gondola wires. –SteveC– Who lives far too close to 2 naval air stations

Ahh, that was a just little too obscure for us.  We’re slipping obviously. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr Charles,  We are sorry to inform you sir that we will have to cry FOUL on the posting of that picture. To think that someone would have the cajones to post something like that only in the interest of teasing others. A pox upon you sir. nah, nah – I got my pox shots already – a pox back at ya Is there room in that whirlpool for 2? Well sure, we can always fit in one more.  Just leave the pox at home. –SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Ah, I see you’ve met one or two already.  <g Peter

Unfortunately yes, I have. You can always spot ‘em from a mile off too, they love those big watches! –SteveC– I thought the Avenger was a comic book hero? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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–SteveC– I’ll show if there are no A-6 drivers around. Then keep Epps out of the stew.

Frank got it though – who ever said military intelligence is an oxymoron. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

wish ‘em luck Peter

An article in The Electronic Telegraph, a London e-paper, has an article on the SAS unit.  Also mentioned was the deployment of Tornados to the "little" military exercise in Oman, with about 20,000 people.  I don’t think most people, on either side, are aware of the size of the wave about to break. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!

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An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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The British SAS were used in the Iranian embassy siege in London a few years ago.  They went in from the roof and balcony and killed all, but one, of hostage takers.  The stroy goes that when they realised one of the hostage takers was hiding among the hostages outside the embassy, they went out to drag him inside to kill him.  Hostages pleaded for his life to be spared. He is serving life in jail. They took out IRA members in Gibraltar, leaving the bodies on the road. There was accusations of a "shoot-to-kill" policy. They turn up in many places where justice, law and order fails to take hold.  For example, an IRA man was found not guilty at the Old Bailey (Central Criminal Court, London) despite overwhelming evidence.  A few weeks later, he was shot dead, along with his mates, in a Northern Ireland churchyard, having just robbed a bank. The SAS are based at Hereford.  Its best to say "Sir" to anyone you speak to in Hereford. Bobby Bewl —

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Any relation to the 24th Yorkshire Foot and Mouth? Bobby

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has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment

Then this article, in yesterday’s Sunday Times, will not have gone down very well: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa02023.html "Tom Carew, an SAS soldier who helped turn Afghanistan’s fighters into an effective modern guerrilla force, on the daunting task facing allied troops in the air or on the ground.  My life with the mujaheddin." — Phil Jones

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They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

In WWII, the Commandos were Royal Marines whereas the SAS were drawn mostly from the army and RAF.  The Commandos specialized in amphibious raids while the SAS, as the name suggests, used airborne and overland approaches. There is a Royal Marine version of the SAS called the SBS (Special Boat Squadron) that is even more clandestine than the SAS (and if you ask a Marine – tougher.)  Just to confuse matters, the SAS has a Boat Troop that operates similarly to the SBS while the SBS also operates from naval helicopters.  Both the SAS and the SBS originated in WWII. http://business.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/Nsco/a/r/m/armedforces/mari… http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/SBS.htm Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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If there is a reasonably accurate account of the SAS in book form or official history, I woiuld like to add a copy to our Museum’s library.  We currently have a little material from W.W.II North African campaigns in the collection including some Desert Rats material.  Our collection includes significant material from England and Commonwealth counries from both World Wars and the Cold War.  We hold the largest ANZAC collection in the US and need to expand input from the British. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!

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They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps.

I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

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Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences?

One that was semi-officially sanctioned by the Regiment several years ago was "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty.  It is pretty factual, although obviously just a selection of stuff that can be made public.  Of interest is the fact that Tony Geraghty, an ex-Territorial (Reserve) paratrooper and journalist wrote a book about Northern Ireland only a couple of years ago and got himself arrested for spilling a few too many beans.  His earlier book mentioned above, is pretty accurate up to the Gulf War. There are numerous others, but most are either glamourizing tales of bravado written with an eye to the dollars, or semi-political works that try to make the authors’ pet point. The more accurate books are restricted circulation ones within the SAS Association or Special Forces Club library. There is one by Ken Connor, a long-time member of the Regiment, called "Ghost" I think from memory – it’s not too bad, but he does push his own barrow a fair bit, and has a slightly jaundiced view of things.  Some say he was in there too long.  I had just under 6 years in, and I saw enough to make me appreciate all the good things in life, and also to recognize what’s REALLY important in life as opposed to what society and peer- pressure try to tell us is important.  That’s why I enjoy fly-fishing! (Nifty, cunning return to topic there – heheh — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe.

Just for the record, he was knighted back in the 1980s, and he died in 1991, just a few months before the Regiment’s jubilee (50th) birthday celebrations, which I attended and was marked by a touch of sadness that the founder had not quite made it. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public.

Both.  The inaccuracies are real and grossly exaggerated.  It’s interesting that no mention of these huge body counts was made in the video-taped debriefings of both ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’.  And the other reason for the dislike of the books is that has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment.  It’s for this reason that the two writers mentioned are now persona non grata in the Regiment and its Association.  Mind you – I’m sure they’re crying all the way to the bank…. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way.

Just to balance the accounts a bit – let me just say that several ex- members of the Regiment HAVE written books that are held in much higher esteem than the ‘McNab’ and ‘Ryan’ books, but these are (a) factual, (b) usually limited distribution through the Association, and (c) not glorifying or exaggerating any deeds or misdeeds. Knocking down heroes is a peculiar sport, but in the opinion of most members and ex-members of the Regiment, neither ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’ were heroes – they just did a bloody good E + E (escape and evasion) effort, then tried to cash in on this stuffed up patrol and make ‘heroes’ out of themselves. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom"

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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SAS = ?

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe. By the way, at one point Stirling was a POW in Colditz Castle, which was the inspiration for the computer game that "started it all" (yes, a shooter game that preceded Doom) – Castle Wolfenstein.  (There was also a board game called "Escape From Colditz".)  A later version of the computer game was "Spear of Destiny", where a commando was sent in to retrieve the spear that pierced the side of Christ, which was supposedly being kept by Himmler in the belief that Nazi armies would be invincible while it was in their possession (in keeping with his occult leanings.)  "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" is due out this fall, for more Nazi-killing goodness.  Boy is this OT.

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An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom

I was involved in that little lot.  It was in the Radfan mountains in the mid-60s, (1966 to be exact) the mountain range between what was then South Yemen and the Protectorate of Aden, as the Brits were withdrawing from Aden, we were basically covering their collective backsides.  The terrain there was like the flipside of the moon, about 50degrees Celsius by day, and sub-zero at night, with rocks underfoot that could cut through a pair of tough desert boots in no time. Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

One small difference of opinion if I may – the SEALs were the USA’s answer to the SAS, not the other way around  The whole idea of Special FOrces, where small teams of highly-trained individuals could wreak more havoc than a company of grunts, originated in the fertile minds of David Stirling, his brother Bill Stirling, Paddy Maine, Jock Lewis, and a few others in 1942. According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution.

22SAS has had a very long involvement in the middle east, and particularly in desert terrain, including Aden as above, Oman (southern area called Dhofar) etc etc, and the regiment was actually started in the northern deserts of Africa in 1942.  They are long-time masters of ‘low- intensity’ campaigns, fighting guerilla tactics and winning hearts and minds as well as using all sorts of means to stay undetected deep behind enemy lines and across borders.  They are primarily a recon and special ops outfit rather than front-line engagement troops. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom" — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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Ditto Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

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having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

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  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

        up the empire, peetah!         thanks to the brits from         their friend in the old north state         wayno         and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Response:

Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

SAS = ?

Special Air Service. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

Response:

Peter Collin: SAS = ?

Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

Response:

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter Charles: I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck

Damn straight, Peter!  Hope they get him.  Betcha you’re poppin’ some buttons! <g Dave

Response:

SAS = ?

Response:

aka "m-14" …special forces for Britain i believe… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SAS = ?

Response:

Question:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

At the Maine Clave in September, the Lakewood Camps staff prepared sack lunches for people who didn’t want to interrupt their fishing at mealtime. I recently found the remains of a stick of cheese from one of those lunches in the bottom of one of the front pockets of my vest. I left it there for good luck. –Steve

Response:

Pretty much was Ken has said, except for the camera.  My most important tool is a knot tying tool, although if I lost it I could use my hemostats to tie the clinch knots. I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white.   Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

"Peter Charles" wrote Different fish  species usually means different stuff but the constants are: snip Peter

Nice list Peter, I also carry: Albolene Tippet material Extra leaders antiseptic Ernie

Response:

two condoms, a wine opener, a yashica t4super, two rolls of film (one b&w, one 400asa fuji print), and a waterproof copy of the kama sutra.

Two, huh? Who’s the other guy? –Steve

Response:

I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white.

Interesting. I’ve never heard of doing something like that. I’m assuming that’s to make the tippet more invisible when fishing dry flies, no? Is that for mono tippet or only for flouro? I thought the darker colors were more invisible so this is news to me. –Steve

Response:

frog fanny What’s a frog’s ass doin in your vest? Seriously though, what is it?

Frog’s Fanny is a self-described "Double Duty Fly Treatment". I first learned of it this summer from Mary Dorsey’s guide friend who gave me a couple of his "Ray Charles Specials", (even a blind guy could catch a fish on this fly , that had been brushed with this stuff. I was REALLY impressed with it and said so here on ROFF. Turns out Charlie Wilson had discovered this stuff a long time ago and was so impressed he bought a whole case, just in case they ever went out of business, so he sent me a bottle. It’s essentially a very fine powder that you apply with a brush to work it into the dubbing. Highly recommended. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white. "Zimbo" wrote … Interesting. I’ve never heard of doing something like that. I’m assuming that’s to make the tippet more invisible when fishing dry flies, no? Is that for mono tippet or only for flouro? I thought the darker colors were more invisible so this is news to me. –Steve

Zimbo, In some parts of the country there is a drifting caddis that spins a white line which helps it to drift.  A white tippet resembles this line. Ernie

Response:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

I’m a bit of a minimalist, but here goes… – flies (usually in two small boxes) – extra tippet – license – floatant – hemostat – sunglasses – trash bag (for carrying out garbage left by other fishermen) Don’t have a vest, usually use a generic fanny-pack.      - Ken

Response:

Zimbo writes: I also carry a stick of "Mean streak", a magic marker for coloring the last 12 – 16 inches of tippet white. Interesting. I’ve never heard of doing something like that. I’m assuming that’s to make the tippet more invisible when fishing dry flies, no? Is that for mono tippet or only for flouro? I thought the darker colors were more invisible so this is news to me. –Steve

No.  It is used to color the tippet (kind doesn’t matter) to mock the thread of net making caddis worms.  It is a neat trick used on the Rapid and other rivers in Maine.  It works with the green rock worm.  Sometimes the worms (larva) are washed away from their rock, but hold on, not unlike a spider dangling from his web.  Read Gary LaFontaine’sCaddisflies. Dave L.

Response:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

in my wader pocket- -spool or 2 of maxima -license -hook file tucked inside front of wader (or if raining in rain jacket pockets)- -one flybox -one shooting head wallet for holding sink-tips vests suck,<G chris

Response:

Nice list Peter, I also carry: Albolene Tippet material Extra leaders antiseptic Ernie

I’ll be you carry yourself very well, Ernie. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

: Frog’s Fanny is a self-described "Double Duty Fly Treatment". : It’s essentially a very fine powder that you apply with a : brush to work it into the dubbing. Highly recommended. So is it bait or what?  ;-) You never actually say what double duties it performs… JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

Response:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

There’s no rule that says you need to fill them. What I carry depends on where I’m fishing. For local waters or waters where I think I know what to expect, I have a somewhat minimal fishing shirt I use that has only two pockets. I carry floatant, nippers, and two spools of tippet. I carry two small flies boxes.  Inside of one of the boxes there is some Biostrike strike ind. and a few small weights in addition to flies. I ALWAYS carry a pair of reading glasses. On waters I’m not familiar with, I carry a fully loaded vest but the main difference is more flies. I do try and avoid this because I find a fully loaded vest a pain. Willi

Response:

: Frog’s Fanny is a self-described "Double Duty Fly Treatment". … You never actually say what double duties it performs…

Blurb straight off the bottle; … Frog’s Fanny is not only the best dry fly floatant that you will ever use, now you can really "Match the Hatch" by coating your nymphs with Frog’s Fanny. It will put an air bubble around them that looks exactly like an emerging insect. It floats a dry fly better than anything I’ve ever used if brushed into the dubbing thoroughly, can’t vouch for the "air bubble around the nymph" claim. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

good inventory snipped<

This shows me that I don’t fish often enough.   To give the detailed inventory Ken offers, I’d have to get out my vest and check. I never carry my sunglasses in my vest, they stay on a neck cord.   I don’t usually carry a compass, but I have taken a small GPS on occasion.   Never needed a tape measure (yet).   Don’t carry a Leatherman tool, but have a nifty little pair of curved needlenose pliers. All in all, I carry much the same stuff as Ken, except in my upper right outside pocket are some strike indicators. Nice idea for a thread, thanks TR.<

ditto. Joe F.

Response:

I’ll add ; a small pen lite flashlight, a cheap pair of reading glasses chap stick pocket knife – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with? Inside pockets (5): first aid kit leatherman tool map & compass car keys Outside vest: patch of amadou nipper on a retractable cord hemostat foam fly patch (can’t get barbless hooks to stay on a wool patch) hook hone Upper right pockets (2): leader wallet with spare leaders & licenses floatant frog fanny Orvis dessicant Upper left pockets (2): camera spools of tippet (usually 4X, 5X, 6X for trout) Lower right pockets (2): sunglasses whisky flask fly box Lower left pockets (3): stream thermometer (used to be outside next to hook hone but I lost too many) fly box red Mucilin patch of Cortland line cleaner container of assorted weights (rarely used tape measure Back of vest (two compartments): lunch water bottle rain jacket and a brand new landing net from Float ‘n Fish. Nice idea for a thread, thanks TR.

         Harry Mason     www.Troutflies.com               *** "Quality Flies for a Trout’s Eyes"

Response:

Different fish  species usually means different stuff but the constants are: nippers hemostat hook sharpener magnet-needle-nailknot thingie key to the back of my truck flashlight thermometer bandaids compass matches splitshot strike indicator putty spare sunglasses also usually carry a small camera and a flask of the good stuff Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

frog fanny

What’s a frog’s ass doin in your vest? Seriously though, what is it?

Response:

At first you just put in a few things that you need and before you know it you don’t have any room left. Ernie "TimeRanger" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

Response:

On a typical day of fishing -, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?

        two condoms, a wine opener, a yashica t4super, two rolls of film (one b&w, one 400asa fuji print), and a waterproof copy of the kama sutra. wayno

Response:

… My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

I use an LL Bean chest pack and usually carry the following: Outside: Albolene Nippers Hemostat Flashlight Insect repellent Leader straightener Mesh Pockets: Tippet Material, sizes depending on stream and time of year, Inside: Goose neck light Compass Reading glasses Sunglasses Extra leaders More tippet material Dessicant 1-1/2" square magnet(instead of fleece patch) Weights Small needle nose pliers Car key Wallet containing licenses Thermometer Hook hone Line dressing Backstrap: Maps (if needed) Spare reel spool w/line Bandana Toilet Paper Wader patch Spare glasses Lunch, light jacket, or rain gear (if needed) In very hot weather, I use a mesh backstrap which carries nothing, so all of the above would be eliminated. Again, good idea for a thread. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

In my vest (just going by memory here) Inside Pockets Left Side Leader Wallet (3 packs of 10′ 5x & 7.5" 6x leader. One fast sinking leader) Extra Spool of 5x, 6x tippet Pewter Flask (filled with either Captain Morgan, Talisker or Tequila) Miniature Flashlight Inside Pockets Right Side Eyeglasses Fishing License Bottom Left Outside Pockets Two foam fly boxes – one nymph/emergers, one dry fly Bottom Right Outside Pockets Midge Fly box David’s  Sunflower Seeds (Salsa or Ranch) Middle Outside Pocket Leatherman Tool Spyderco Pocket Knife Top Outside Pocket Split shot Strike Indicators (Yarn and Foam) Outside D-ring left side – Fly floatant – Albolene Outside Right side – Old metal shower curtain ring – holds two spools of tippet Zinger with Snips for tippet Back zippered section – If weather looks bad – store my rain jacket in there.  If it is good weather, will store extra beers. Depending on time of year, In the bottom of it, carry my fingerless wool gloves Back outside D-ring – Net Wear a fanny pack for lower back support, wade belt Outside Pocket Safewater Bottle (In a pinch will also hold 3 beers and a small sandwich) Inside chest waders pocket – On the San Juan, carried my digital camera in a Ziploc freezer sandwich bag bc. — I don’t care who you are, you are not walking on the water while I’m fishing.

Response:

On a typical day of fishing – say on the recent San Juan Clave, what are the things in your vest/chest pack that you would not be without (besides flies)?  My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with? — All fishermen are liars ‘cept you n me, and I’m starting to have doubts about you! www.fishticker.com

Response:

… My vest (el cheapo Wally World special) has about 20 different pockets and an assortment of D-rings.  What sort of goodies do *you* fill these pockets with?

Inside pockets (5): first aid kit leatherman tool map & compass car keys Outside vest: patch of amadou nipper on a retractable cord hemostat foam fly patch (can’t get barbless hooks to stay on a wool patch) hook hone Upper right pockets (2): leader wallet with spare leaders & licenses floatant frog fanny Orvis dessicant Upper left pockets (2): camera spools of tippet (usually 4X, 5X, 6X for trout) Lower right pockets (2): sunglasses whisky flask fly box Lower left pockets (3): stream thermometer (used to be outside next to hook hone but I lost too many) fly box red Mucilin patch of Cortland line cleaner container of assorted weights (rarely used tape measure Back of vest (two compartments): lunch water bottle rain jacket and a brand new landing net from Float ‘n Fish. Nice idea for a thread, thanks TR. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

Thomas, Thanks for the notice!  I live up in Portland so it’s not easy to get down there.  Does the Mid Willamette group have a website? Brad Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks for the notice!  I live up in Portland so it’s not easy to get down there.  Does the Mid Willamette group have a website?

The MWFF does not yet have a web site.  There is a new Oregon Council Federation of Fly Fishers web site that lists all the Oregon fly fishing clubs, and has links to those that do have web pages.      http://oregonfff.org Thomas Gilg

Response:

This December 12th, 2000, fly fishing writer, photographer and cartoonist Gene Trump will be giving a slide show to the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers (Corvallis, Oregon) on "Fly Fishing for Shad in Oregon".      First Presbyterian Church      8th and Monroe in Corvallis      Free – No Admission Cost Gene’s slide presentation will focus on shad fly-fishing in the State of Oregon. Often called "mini-tarpon", shad of 3-7 lbs. return by the 100,000+ in several of Oregon’s coastal streams, and by the millions in the Columbia River Basin. Largely unknown to many anglers, shad are easily caught by fly anglers and fight hard. Gene will reveal all he knows. Next month, the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers will hold their yearly banquet (1/6/2000), and will have Rick Hafele as the nights speaker. Rick has helped write many of the insect/hatch books that fly fishers in the west depend on. Banquet tickets are on sale at Wilson Motors in Corvallis and at the 12/12 meeting. Please call me if you have any questions – 541-715-2756 during the day, or 541-753-4276 during the evening. The Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers general meeting is the 2nd Tuesday of all months except January, July, August and September, when the banquet and outings dominate the schedule. All meetings and outings are open to the public – membership is NOT required. For those that can make it, my wife (Donna) and I will be giving a presentation to the Santiam Fly Casters in Salem Oregon on 12/14/2000.  Donna and I have a slide show "His and Hers Alaska" which contrasts 4 "grungy macho guy trips in rafts" against 1 "civilized real-food real-heat trip in cabins/houseboat" that the wife forced the guy into  Though my portion of the slide show ends with burning underware (low cost laundry), Donna is substantially meaner towards the male of the species, with her "selective femenism" theory (guys do all the hard junk women don’t choose to do). Thomas Gilg – President, Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers – VP Conservation, Oregon Council of the Federation of Fly Fishers

Response:

Tom, This sounds very ineresting, especially in light of the huge run of shad below Bonneville dam, near where I live.  Any chance of posting a transcript or highlights of the presentation? Thanks, Pat K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This December 12th, 2000, fly fishing writer, photographer and cartoonist Gene Trump will be giving a slide show to the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers (Corvallis, Oregon) on "Fly Fishing for Shad in Oregon".      First Presbyterian Church      8th and Monroe in Corvallis      Free – No Admission Cost Gene’s slide presentation will focus on shad fly-fishing in the State of Oregon. Often called "mini-tarpon", shad of 3-7 lbs. return by the 100,000+ in several of Oregon’s coastal streams, and by the millions in the Columbia River Basin. Largely unknown to many anglers, shad are easily caught by fly anglers and fight hard. Gene will reveal all he knows. Next month, the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers will hold their yearly banquet (1/6/2000), and will have Rick Hafele as the nights speaker. Rick has helped write many of the insect/hatch books that fly fishers in the west depend on. Banquet tickets are on sale at Wilson Motors in Corvallis and at the 12/12 meeting. Please call me if you have any questions – 541-715-2756 during the day, or 541-753-4276 during the evening. The Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers general meeting is the 2nd Tuesday of all months except January, July, August and September, when the banquet and outings dominate the schedule. All meetings and outings are open to the public – membership is NOT required. For those that can make it, my wife (Donna) and I will be giving a presentation to the Santiam Fly Casters in Salem Oregon on 12/14/2000.  Donna and I have a slide show "His and Hers Alaska" which contrasts 4 "grungy macho guy trips in rafts" against 1 "civilized real-food real-heat trip in cabins/houseboat" that the wife forced the guy into  Though my portion of the slide show ends with burning underware (low cost laundry), Donna is substantially meaner towards the male of the species, with her "selective femenism" theory (guys do all the hard junk women don’t choose to do). Thomas Gilg – President, Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers – VP Conservation, Oregon Council of the Federation of Fly Fishers

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino —

Response:

<< I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino   Regino, You will be about an hour to hour and a half from the famous Yakima River.  I highly recommend fishing it for wild Rainbow trout.  A local store in the area keeps a good web page about conditions.  I believe it is www.worleybugger.com In case that isn’t the right URL search under Worly Bugger Fly Shop. Fishing on the Columbia is very limited this time of year.  You can head over towards the Idaho border and get into some Spring Chinooks.  The Clearwater would be a decent bet there.  Unfortunately, I don’t fish that run so can’t be much help. Mike Spokane, WA

Response:

I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino

The Yakima River between Yakima and Ellensburg is pretty good.  It takes a bit over an hour to get there from Richland.   Unfortunately, this time of year usually means considerable flow in the river to support irrigation, but you may be able to find decent fish along the banks using hoppers. About an hour north of Richland is a spring creek called Rocky Ford.  It is between Moses Lake and Ephrata off of SR 17.  When I lived there, it was great in the early morning and in the evening, but quite slow during the day.  Fish (Columbia Redsides) averaged ~20-24 inches and 3-8 lbs.  If you go there, take small flies (no bigger than 18s). You also might try the Jon Day and the Deschutes in Oregon.  They are not that far from the Tri Cities.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino The Yakima River between Yakima and Ellensburg is pretty good.  It takes a bit over an hour to get there from Richland.   Unfortunately, this time of year usually means considerable flow in the river to support irrigation, but you may be able to find decent fish along the banks using hoppers. About an hour north of Richland is a spring creek called Rocky Ford.  It is between Moses Lake and Ephrata off of SR 17.  When I lived there, it was great in the early morning and in the evening, but quite slow during the day.  Fish (Columbia Redsides) averaged ~20-24 inches and 3-8 lbs.  If you go there, take small flies (no bigger than 18s). You also might try the Jon Day and the Deschutes in Oregon.  They are not that far from the Tri Cities.

I also recommend Rocky Ford.  Very small flies work great, but we also did well for very large bows using San Juan Worms, so take those along too.  At times the lunkers would hit those like a freight train. Good Luck, Pat Kirkpatrick * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I also recommend Rocky Ford.  Very small flies work great, but we also did well for very large bows using San Juan Worms, so take those along too.  At times the lunkers would hit those like a freight train. Good Luck, Pat Kirkpatrick

Oops….I also forgot one:  try wooly buggers around dusk. Pat:  Is the stretch below the lower hatchery still closed?  It used to be a great place to go to avoid other fishers….

Response:

place to go to avoid other fishers….

Better check the reg’s.  We were there 2 years ago and it was open right below the hatchery.  Btw, we ran out of San Juan Worms and couldn’t find any locally.  Finally found a tackle/hardware shop in Soap Lake, and the owner/tyer tied some up while we ate dinner across the street–kind of a flys made to order while-you-wait deal! Cheers, PatK * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Btw, we ran out of San Juan Worms and couldn’t find any locally.  Finally found a tackle/hardware shop in Soap Lake, and the owner/tyer tied some up while we ate dinner across the street–kind of a flys made to order while-you-wait deal! Cheers,

Ah….I remember the Soap Lake shop well…..I always thought that opening a shop in Ephrata would be a good thing to do.  You know…..go to RF in the morning, figure out what is hatching, tie a bunch up and sell them for an exorbitant price to all the folks getting skunked on the stream. When I left WA (about 4 years ago or so) RF had just been closed to public access right above the discharge stream from the lower hatchery.   The first year it was closed I managed to obtain access from the owner, but he subsequently ceased granting such access.  Oh, well.

Response:

There certainly is a dearth of flyfishing gear in that area, despite the ffing opportunities.  To insure a successful shop opening in that impoverished area, however, you may need to combine the flyshop with a Greasy Spoon diner, and maybe a gas station/general mercantile.  You know–a shopping mall not to exceed 1000sq.ft.! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Btw, we ran out of San Juan Worms and couldn’t find any locally.  Finally found a tackle/hardware shop in Soap Lake, and the owner/tyer tied some up while we ate dinner across the street–kind of a flys made to order while-you-wait deal! Cheers, Ah….I remember the Soap Lake shop well…..I always thought that opening a shop in Ephrata would be a good thing to do.  You know…..go to RF in the morning, figure out what is hatching, tie a bunch up and sell them for an exorbitant price to all the folks getting skunked on the stream. When I left WA (about 4 years ago or so) RF had just been closed to public access right above the discharge stream from the lower hatchery. The first year it was closed I managed to obtain access from the owner, but he subsequently ceased granting such access.  Oh, well.

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

  G.Gehrke Bamboo Fly Rod Builders October 14 – 06:40 am   Fly Tying October 12 – 05:12 pm   Tackle September 29 – 03:38 pm   Freshwater Fly Fishing September 29 – 03:39 pm   Saltwater Fly Fishing October 3 – 04:18 pm   Catch & Release October 1 – 02:56 am http://www.gink.com/discus Active Bulletin Board 24 Hours a day: Mr. G.

Response:

[BS mercifully snipped] http://www.gink.com/discus Active Bulletin Board 24 Hours a day: Mr. G.

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[The rantings of a pompous old windbag snipped] http://www.gink.com/discus Active Bulletin Board 24 Hours a day: Mr. G.

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Question:

How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

The Aztec would burn considerably more than 8-10 GPH.  Probably closer to 25 GPH.  So we are talking about over 500 gallons.  The Aztec is a rather slow twin with a pair of 250 HP flat engines.  It is Pipers upscale Apache, just as the Beech Baron is the high power version of the Travelair. John

Response:

Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html.

This link doesn’t work for me?

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Response:

Check out http://www.calle.com/aviation/airports.cgi Allows you to specify departure, destination, range and speed, and displays a nice table and map of the results. Lots of material for dream flights… BTW you probably don’t want a totally deserted island; food, water, fuel, runway and women should be minimum requirements (the website allows you to specify 2 out of these 5 Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

I think someone tried this in a twin.  Her name was Amelia something….. Sorrry, it was too easy to pass on  :-) Jeff Oslick

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Da Plane, Boss, Da Plane! (sorry, just couldn’t help myself) John Galban====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

James, It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter. Reinhard

Response:

I don’t know what you are flying but when flying my instructors Turbo Aztec, six full grown american people and topped off I can hold 15,000 on one engine, well, or as long as my leg holds out. cg It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. Reinhard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what you are flying but when flying my instructors Turbo Aztec, six full grown american people and topped off I can hold 15,000 on one engine, well, or as long as my leg holds out. cg It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. Reinhard

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter.

You could also go up to Alaska, across and down through Russia, over to Japan and then on to the South Pacific.  It is a much longer journey, but no 2000 mile over water legs. (I wonder how far the jump to Palau would be, I’ve always wanted to go there…) Brian

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I only show from OAK to PHNL to be 2089 nm that would only be about 10 hrs in the air.

My rounded off 2100 NM was only a paltry 11 NM off from your very accurate 2089!! well within range 300 gal, 1800 lbs, but you would not be flying  more than 5 hours on one engine. cg

It is quite obvious to me that you are an armchair pilot who has never done anything like this before. Your numbers are all wrong, and I hope for your sake that you never try it. You would most certainly get your feet wet. It took me 13 hours in a Baron 58 and 15 in a Twin Bonanza. Your turbos in that Aztec would most likely do very little if anything for you since westbound to HNL most frequently you need to stay at 10K or below lest you catch the prevailing westerlies which are very strong at altitude. So you would do well to get 150K over the water. Reinhard

Response:

I only show from OAK to PHNL to be 2089 nm that would only be about 10 hrs in the air. well within range 300 gal, 1800 lbs, but you would not be flying  more than 5 hours on one engine.   cg First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!   John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James James, It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter. Reinhard

Response:

What is the availability of av-gas in Russia. I hear that it’s non-existant. D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks! How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil. If you stay below 10k feet, you will frequently find winds that are not too bad. You often find about 10 knots of help down low.. Under no circumstances would I start out with ANY headwind on that leg. Then you could make HNL in about 14-15 hrs in an Aztec. Taking a Baron to Fiji last year, I flew at 6K feet to HNL and did quite well. (13 hrs.) Fitting all that fuel into the plane is really not so difficult. There are professional tanking outfits that install ferry tanks in the cabin in a day. You are certainly correct when you adress the oil issue. It is absolutely essential that you know the oil consumption of your engines. And there is also a way to rig an oil replenishing setup to that you can add oil in flight. Reinhard

Reinhard is exactly right.  You notice in the original post that I did mention that it would take some fancy ferry tanks to get the fuel in! When my airplane flew across the Atlantic from Brazil to Cornwall, they added a special fancy ferry tank.  A 50 gallon drum on chocks where the back seat goes, with a wobble pump to pump fuel up into the wing tank. They recommended that you run the wing tank down to less than a quarter full before pumping fuel up to it.  They said watch the gauges so you do not overfill it and pump fuel overboard.   The also recommended the long distance power setting of 1800 RPM and 23 inches of manifold pressure.  That was supposed to get the fuel consumption down to 14.7 gallons per hour.  That gave a little over eight hours in the air.  At that power setting, you get 100 knots! Still wouldn’t make Honolulu! John

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No idea about a KR2, but you might want to read Sport Aviation (past few issues) and look for the 2 part round the world story by the author and Burt Rutan, who flew their Long EZ’s around the world. Very informative (and nice pictures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html. He has also published his autobio called "Aiming High", Wakefield Press, South Australia, ISBN 1 86254 424 7. Highly recommended reading for anyone building their own plane.

James, You are considering a monumental task here ol chap, this sought of feat requires a hell of a lot of homework and I would suggest you’re really stretching it in a KR-2. With a large amount of retro-fitting you could possibly carry out this adventure, however the stakes are extremely high! I would also endorse the above, ie read Jon Johannson’s book and while your doing that bare a thought for the planning both technically and enroute that goes into these voyages. You may also wish to contact the "Mick & Dick" of "Round the World Friendship Tour":- Sport Aviation Feb edition Pg 76. For a start, unless you’ve got heaps of "Bucks" behind you, just go build your A/C and enjoy flying it around the "States". Whilst I’ll admit, I don’t have an intermit knowledge of the KR-2 and its weight & balance etc, it is only small by any standards. Its payload excess does not go down well with the number crunching required when you consider such additions as fuel, extra redundancy systems req’d, and ESPECIALLY CONSIDER ENGINE RELIABLITY etc, etc. To say the least, 18 plus hours is a long time to spend in the close confines of a KR-2 cockpit, surrounded by custom built ferry tanks around your ears. I have two buddies that were involved in Ferry Flights across the Pacific in their younger days. One of them did get his feet wet mid Pacific (1200 Nm from nowhere & at night) when the nut on the Alternator pulley worked its way loose. Lucky for him he had spotted a fishing boat a couple of hours before and was able to back track and relocate it. All be it, he was now down to torch and compass. That was in a brand new production A/C as well. Glenn now does his long transcontinental flights the same way I do, the only way:-In style at 43,000 ft. James, whilst your challenge is a commendable one, the golden rule is to keep your feet dry. Best way to do that is travel the South Pacific the same way most of us do, In a 747, 767 etc, and don’t forget you can have the added advantage of sipping champagne or other adult beverages!! If you’re considering going on from HNL to other South Pacific destinations, then you have a hole heap more challenges in front of you. Regards Ray (Just my 2 cents worth) J.

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My tongue was firmly in cheek.  I don’t fly VFR without at least 1 hour reserve. — Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!   John I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James

Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html. He has also published his autobio called "Aiming High", Wakefield Press, South Australia, ISBN 1 86254 424 7. Highly recommended reading for anyone building their own plane. Rgds JD   …… I’d rather be flying ….. John Duncan M.C.N.E.  PPL(A)  J.P.  AOPA(Aust)#42745 EAA#548147 J & J Network Services Pty Ltd P.O. Box 109 Minto N.S.W. 2566 Australia

Response:

I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks! How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

If you stay below 10k feet, you will frequently find winds that are not too bad. You often find about 10 knots of help down low.. Under no circumstances would I start out with ANY headwind on that leg. Then you could make HNL in about 14-15 hrs in an Aztec. Taking a Baron to Fiji last year, I flew at 6K feet to HNL and did quite well. (13 hrs.) Fitting all that fuel into the plane is really not so difficult. There are professional tanking outfits that install ferry tanks in the cabin in a day. You are certainly correct when you adress the oil issue. It is absolutely essential that you know the oil consumption of your engines. And there is also a way to rig an oil replenishing setup to that you can add oil in flight. Reinhard

Response:

It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!  

How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

Response:

What did you assume that I would try it without any  preflight planning?? cg It is quite obvious to me that you are an armchair pilot who has never done anything like this before. Your numbers are all wrong, and I hope for your sake that you never try it. You would most certainly get your feet wet. It took me 13 hours in a Baron 58 and 15 in a Twin Bonanza. Your turbos in that Aztec would most likely do very little if anything for you since westbound to HNL most frequently you need to stay at 10K or below lest you catch the prevailing westerlies which are very strong at altitude. So you would do well to get 150K over the water. Reinhard

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  

Surely you jest, Doug. Kidding aside, the special flight permit that you get for the overload condition and he temporary fuel tank installation requires you calculate in a 3 hour reserve on transoceanic flights. Things can happen while on such a long flight; the forecast winds can turn out different, you might have equipment problems that cause you to burn more fuel for less airspeed than you had planned, etc. I have had several a couple of occasions when I was glad for the extra fuel. Remember, there is only one time when you can have too much fuel: when you are on fire. Reinhard

Response:

Question:

In a couple of weeks, I will be taking a trip for a couple days of fishing on Dale Hollow then a couple of days at Table Rock.  I have never been on either one of them.  Anyone have any advice on how to fish and what to use.  Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

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I am envious.  I have not been on table rock in 10 years.  Table rock is full of bass and a few rainbow’s.  There are a few main rivers that empty in to Table rock.  One is the white river.  This river has decent fishing, but it soon turns shallow.  The other river is the Roaring River.  Matter a fact I would recommend canning the trip to table rock and heading up to Roaring River State park.  Buy a day pass, at last check it was $3, and fish your heart out.  The state park stocks the river with trout from the hatchery at the end of the park every night.  The limit was 5 trout and they are mighty good eating.  Roaring river is about 5 miles from Eagle Rock landing on tablerock.  If you like to fly fish, you will not find a better place in which to practice the fine art. Let me know if you wand any further info on Roaring River. IF you still want to go to table rock you will find great coves with plenty of dead cover.  That is, plenty of trees and stumps.  The bass are thick as theives.  If you go down by the dam the water is about 150 feet deep.  This is good fishing.  The water gets pretty warm in the summer. So the fish tend to run deep in the daytime. I hope you have luck.  If you need any further recomendations please let me know.  This is where I spent my summers for years. Deon Smith

Response:

: In a couple of weeks, I will be taking a trip for a couple days of fishing : on Dale Hollow then a couple of days at Table Rock.  I have never been on : either one of them.  Anyone have any advice on how to fish and what to : use.  Any ideas would be appreciated. I fished the B.A.S.S. Missouri Invitational on Table Rock a few weeks back and I love the lake. If you haven’t booked a place to stay yet I stayed at a place called the Lighthouse Lodge in Kimberling City. A guy named Dave owns it and I really liked him. He is a fair source for where the fish are too. And no I don’t get no kick back or anything else from him. Although I haven’t fished Dale Hollow I was up there this spring to look around and it LOOKED a bit like Table Rock. Judgement based on standing no shore and looking at the lake. So take it for what its worth. Back to Table Rock. Best pattern I saw was fishing CEDAR trees. I could catch nice fish by dragging a lure through the tree and coming in contact with the tree. Stopping right after it hits and I would get bit. This was in varying depths of water. Could be as little as 8 feet and as much as 40. One guys method was to crank a stick bait down into the tops of trees in DEEP water and let it sit there. Move it a bit and let it sit again. It was too slow a pattern for me. Another good lure/method was to through light line with no weight and a Zoom minnow imitation to the tops of trees and let it sink. Twitching once in a while. This was a killer combination IF you had the right color. Color was key here. Just keep trying colors till they start tearing your arms off. Next was gravel points. Look for pea gravel on points and I used jerk baits. This was my best pattern. Both lakes are extremely clear water so long casts are a must. And remember that conditions change and what was working last month may not this month. Oh and when we were there the fish were spawning. Many people caught limits by sight fishing beds. Good fishing, All About Computers      | (810) 456-3894 (work) 2887 Pontiac Ct.         | (810) 373-6865 (home) Auburn Hills, Michigan   | Single and not taking applications. 48326                    | Interviews maybe.

Response:

Question:

Once upon a time after a full day of fishing I tied on a olive

wooly bugger, turned around and cast down stream and let all of my line out in the current.  The I started reeling, yes thats right reeling the line back in.  And guess what.  The trout loved it. Hope I am not stipped of my rod and waders for admit<<< Hey, they call that slamming fish where i come from, and its a hell of technique.  Works great for steelhead and salmon. Tom — "For the love of the fly, the cycle of spring, and all things that remind us of nature’s cruel dance."

Response:

Colin Albert writes: My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams.  But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other.  There, I saidit.  This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why.  Am I the onlyone that ties this on when nothing is working???

I use the Royal Wulff #14 on small mountain streams in New Mexico. It is the best single producer for me. I wonder how much color can be seen from below water, and how much the fisherman can see. May improve the fisherman’s odds ? Nothing makes a more attentive fisherman than a fly that he thinks is going to work ! Arch Thiessen an indian trader from Santa Fe ******* Arch Thiessen                                                 "never put off ’till tomorrow what can be put off ’till next week" . . . anon

Response:

My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams.  But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other.  There, I saidit.  This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why.  Am I the onlyone that ties this on when nothing is working???

I’ve caught alot of Brown Trout on the Royal Wulff in the small lakes in the hills of Mid Wales. It seems to work especially well in a flat calm and can bring fish to the surface if twitched rather than fished static. I’m never sure if this is simply because of the disturbance caused or whether the pattern has something to do with it. A Grey Wulff of the same size doesn’t seem to have the same effect. Any answers? Oliver Hides BBC Wales Cardiff.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My favorite patterns are similar – elk hair caddis, lt cahill, griffin gnat renegade, adams.  But, and I am a bit ashamed to admit this — I have caught more trout and larger trout on a #16 royal wulff than any other.  There, I saidit.  This fly has seemed to go out of favor, and I wonder why.  Am I the onlyone that ties this on when nothing is working??? I’ve caught alot of Brown Trout on the Royal Wulff in the small lakes in the hills of Mid Wales. It seems to work especially well in a flat calm and can bring fish to the surface if twitched rather than fished static. I’m never sure if this is simply because of the disturbance caused or whether the pattern has something to do with it. A Grey Wulff of the same size doesn’t seem to have the same effect. Any answers? Oliver Hides BBC Wales Cardiff.

Once upon a time after a full day of fishing I tied on a olive wooly bugger, turned around and cast down stream and let all of my line out in the current.  The I started reeling, yes thats right reeling the line back in.  And guess what.  The trout loved it. Hope I am not stipped of my rod and waders for admitting this. heheh Tom

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: : : : I’ve caught alot of Brown Trout on the Royal Wulff in the small lakes in the : hills of Mid Wales. It seems to work especially well in a flat calm : and can bring fish to the surface if twitched rather than fished static. I’m : never sure if this is simply because of the disturbance caused or whether the : Once upon a time after a full day of fishing I tied on a olive wooly bugger, : turned around and cast down stream and let all of my line out in the current. :  The I started reeling, yes thats right reeling the line back in.  And guess : what.  The trout loved it. Hope I am not stipped of my rod and waders for : admitting this. heheh : Tom Anyone who would strip you of anything for catching fish on a particular fly is just a snob.  I have had lots of luck with wooly buggers as well as Royal Wulffs.  I think the Royal Wulff is a beautiful fly and is described by the original tyer Lee Wulff as a nice desert for fish…

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Count me in as one all in favor of this idea PROVIDED the fly fishing messages weren’t all cross-posted to alt.fishing or r.o.f.  I routinely skip all fly-fishing postings, and would certainly welcome a new place for them!

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How would I know if this newsgroup were set up?  Are alt.fishing and r.o.c. also newsgroups?  Yesterday there was a mention of some kind of private posting.  How does that work?     (New to both flyfishing and internet…)

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Count me in as one all in favor of this idea PROVIDED the fly fishing messages weren’t all cross-posted to alt.fishing or r.o.f.  I routinely skip all fly-fishing postings, and would certainly welcome a new place for them!

 Yes indeed,  here’s my support for just another group, LISTSERV was nice, but like all, well most of them, they just become too popular for the morning reading!…we do have work to do:-)  Steve Drossel

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How would I know if this newsgroup were set up?  Are alt.fishing and r.o.c. also newsgroups?  Yesterday there was a mention of some kind of private posting.  How does that work?     (New to both flyfishing and internet…)

While I’m not new to flyfishing I am new to Internet. Would someone please explain to me, Jessica, and other newcomers how to access Flyfish? Thanks

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WHAT IS THE FLYFISH LIST?      What is the flyfish list? The flyfish list is a worldwide discussion group with flyfishing as the topic.  It is called a list because it is simply a mailing list.  The messages which comprise the discussion are sent as electronic mail (email) to everyone on the mailing list.  If you subscribe to flyfish, your name and computer address will simply be added to the mailing list and you will automatically receive electronic mail messages about flyfishing.      How do I subscribe? To subscribe to the flyfish list, send an email message to: The text of the message should be: subscribe flyfish John Smith (Substitute your name instead of John Smith) It is not necessary to specify a subject for this message.  Be everyone on the list.  The listserv address is used for administrative messages such as subscriptions and is handled automatically by a computer program which controls the list.      How do I get removed from the list? Once subscribed to the list, you may at some point wish to remove yourself from the list.  To do this, send an email message to: The text of the message should be: signoff flyfish (an equivalent command is: unsubscribe flyfish) It is not necessary to specify a subject for this message. Again, please remember to send this message to      How do I post messages? To post a message (to everyone on the list), simply send the message to: Any message mailed to this address will automatically be sent by the listserv program to everyone currently on the mailing list.   It helps to specify a brief, descriptive subject so that the people on the list can read (or delete) their mail efficiently. It also helps to end your message with your name and email address, so that readers may respond to you directly when desired.      How do I reply to a message? To reply to a message, you must first decide whether you want to reply only to the person that posted the message or to everyone on the list.  If you want to reply only to the one person, then do not use the "reply" function in your mail program.  That will of course, result in it being sent to everyone on the list. Instead, send your reply to his or her email address.  This can usually be obtained by examining the message to which you are responding.  Look for a signature at the end of the message or Unfortunately, it is possible that your mail program will remove such non-essential lines from the message header.  Signing your messages with your email address will assist others with this same problem. If you want your reply sent to everyone on the list, then send As with any message sent to this address, it will be distributed to everyone on the list.  It is helpful to specify the same subject, preceeded by "Re:". Most mail programs have a reply function which simplifies the process of replying to a message.  If you reply to a posted message using your reply function, your reply will be sent back distributed to everyone on the list.  This is how most people reply to messages because there is no need to type in the list address or the subject.  This may not work for everyone; in rare cases an overeducated mail program will ferret out the original sender from the header and reply to that person rather than the list, so you may have to do things the old fashioned way.      Why don’t I receive the messages that I post? If you post a message to flyfish, it is sent to everyone on the list except you, the sender.  If you want to receive your own with the following line of text: set flyfish repro Most people prefer to see their own messages sent back to them, if only as confirmation that the message actually was sent out without any difficulties.      I get too much mail from the list.  What can I do? You can get the mail from the list sent to you in digest form.  You will then get one message per day (usually) which contains all of the messages of the day.  Just send the message: set flyfish digests If this is still too much for you, you may wish to signoff the list.     Save these instructions in case this happens to you.      Are old messages archived? Yes, the old messages are archived.  To get a list of archived files containing the text:  index flyfish      How do I get an archived file? containing the text: get flyfish filename (Substitute the name of the file you want to get for filename)      Can I get a list of listserv commands? A short list of listserv commands will be sent to you if you send the message: help      Where else on the internet can I get flyfishing information      and files? Information on other electronic sources of flyfishing information is given in another FAQ file also posted periodically to the flyfish list.      I’m confused.  Where can I get help? If you have difficulties subscribing, resigning, or posting to the flyfish list, please direct your questions to the listowner and not to the list.  There is no need to clutter the mailboxes of subscribers with such questions.  The listowner will be happy to help you. This file is posted periodically to the flyfish list by questions about this file directly to me and not to the list. PS  The listowner and the location of the list will change in the     there is a definite problem with the list.  If you need help, you     A new flyfishing newsgroup should be starting soon.  I have posted     this message so that those of you that want to try the flyfish     list will know how to send commands to listserv (not flyfish),     because it is disruptive to the list to have administrative     messages sent to everyone.  However, if you are interested in     flyfishing, and have usenet access, please help get the new     group started.  Everyone will benefit, especially those that     would rather get their flyfishing fixes through a newsgroup     instead of in their email boxes.

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