Question:

<snip Nice report, Roger. I watched a UK fishing show about a guy who rented and floated a large river in Sweden on a raft. He fished for whitefish and trout. Ever heard of this? — Gary M

Response:

Nice report, Roger. Keep catching those big, fat grayling, and keep the reports coming. — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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Hi! Had planned to stop working 2 pm. As usual something came up and I wasn’t on my way until 4 pm. Driving the 85 km to my intended fishing spot downstream the Village of Myrheden, I passed a local thunderstorm headed for the coast. However, on arrival at the river the weather was sunny and approx 23 degrees Celsius. River Byske is one of Swedens most famous salmon rivers, but also hold grayling and trout. Earlier in the history of the river it was used to float timber to the coast. As a consequence there were long arms of stone built to concentrate the flow of water to a smaller area and as such deepening the river. Listening to my grandfather talk about the fishing in these days it is obvious that fish benefitted from the timber floating. A huge amount of timber in the first half of the summer meant an enormous food supply for the fish as a variety of insects fell into the water with the timber. Grayling up to lb 4 were caught every summer and brown trout up to lb 10. Today the care takers of this fishing area has started to restore the river to its "natural" state by digging these stone arms back into the river using excavators. Fish biologists have pointed out that this work must be done so that alternating deeper and shallower parts of the river are created (obvious) but the care takers look at money first and as a consequence the cheapest contractor gets the job. What happens? Well, this contractor often knows nothing about restoring the river bed and the result is just as often dissapointing. The tragic part of all this is that the restorations are made with the salmon’s best interest in mind. So in failing improvements for salmon, which after all are migratory fish, the care takers have failed catastrophically with the stationary fish which is only a remnant of what it once was. Enough of this crap, back to the report. Since this was the first trip, this year, to this area, I went straight for the hot spots that have emerged during 26 years of fly fishing in this river. There’s a square meter of the river that every year gets my first attention and this year was no different. Kind of silly isn’t it? to go to the exact same spot year after year, especially since the river is something like 150 km long. But to me it’s like visiting an old friend and being there makes me content if nothing else. The first thing I noticed was that the river was low, more so than usual this time of year. The second was that, probably due to a surprisingly early summer with above average temperatures for over three weeks in a row, the insect life was in full activity. There were two different mayflies swarming and also a number of caddis flies with a medium sized grey variant in majority. One of the mayfly species (don’t know its latin name) was a bright yellow and fairly large mayfly, these mayflies, with the grace of a butterfly, are beautiful to watch. To reach the spot I had to do some wading and whilst doing so I saw a rise just where I had expected it to be. It looked like a fairly large grayling. The spot is located on the neck of a stream with an underwater rock just upstream. By this time my expectations were high and my first cast a bit short in the eager to reach the fish. The second cast I hooked a 15.5 inch grayling weighing slightly below lb1.5 . I usually catch one fish for eating, but this one was too big so I released it. All in all I caught 18 grayling and kept two for breakfast, one for me and one for my 80 year old grandfather who still fly fish but due to a bad knee mostly in lakes. I fished until 4 am with a short break for cooking coffee at midnight. As always this time of the year the presence of the sun was visible as a redish light in the horizon even at 1 am. End of story. P.S. I just got off the phone as a friend of mine called to tell me about a visit to a small river "Mal

Question:

Hmm…..Do you need a new best friend, Mr. Cooke? /daytripper ("Have Rod, Will Travel"

hey Trip we got a chalk stream in Maine here, I’ve never been up but for you old buddy, I’d make the trip. Flyfish

Response:

Hmm…..Do you need a new best friend, Mr. Cooke? /daytripper ("Have Rod, Will Travel" hey Trip we got a chalk stream in Maine here, I’ve never been up but for you old buddy, I’d make the trip. Flyfish

Just make sure that there is no climb involved, especially no climb with speed bumps liberally placed along the trail! Op

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This is not the case where I fish, and obviously not the case for wild fish in loughs, where you fish. No – usually chalkstreams – Itchen, Test, Wylie and Avon. Not easy water.

My error. I would have thought the chalkstream fish were fairly "educated" as well. ( I have fished the Costa Beck a few times), but I didn

Question:

Dear Steve, I read your inquiry regarding the CMR-Reel and I’m sure you’ll be very pleased with it, should you decide to purchase one. You can get all the technical information about all Marryat products including the CMR reel on the Web page at: www.marryat.com Regards, Roger Ritter, Marryat staff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When fly fishing for trout in Sweden, I saw someone fishing with the new Marryat CMR reel made in Switzerland. This guy was extremly pleased with its performance. Before buying one, I would like to hear how others feel about this new product. Steve Turner

Response:

When fly fishing for trout in Sweden, I saw someone fishing with the new Marryat CMR reel made in Switzerland. This guy was extremly pleased with its performance. Before buying one, I would like to hear how others feel about this new product. Steve Turner

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.

I agree, but I wasn’t talking about you.  :-) I went back and found out who it was, it was "Mr G", Here’s the excerpt: "The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.  " Now, do you believe that "the flow of [Tim's] persona" wins any moment of any thread?  He’s usually the first one in there swearing and cursing and spitting foul words. Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG)

None taken nor given. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words?     What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started     because Tim had to resort to swearing.             – Ken     —     Not speaking for anyone but myself       No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the   "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all   the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is   bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who   doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too   much drugs.  :-)

Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you. Pentium inside eh? -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you.

If so, I’m wrong.  Please read what I first wrote (what I’ve left unsnipped above). I asked him for clarification about what he wrote. Note the question marks…I’ll stop now so that I don’t turn and begin to spit foul words.  :-) GRRR,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said.

I stand corrected.  I DID ask for a clarification, but then the thread wandered and I forgot the starting point.  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them.            - Ken

How about adopting the sensible policy of only replying to the threads that you _do_ "keep up on".  Failing that, how about warning readers when you are replying to an article you have not read or thought about… cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Tim I don’t see how it is possible to "moderate" the group except by general consensus, ie. if someone oversteps the mark then the group excludes them to the extent that they give up and go elsewhere. If someone feels strongly enough to post a "fuck off" then OK, as long as it isn’t gratuitous. If you are insistent on creating a FAQ, (I don’t really consider it necessary, personally), then keep it to "frequently asked questions", why try and have rules that are unenforceable? General consensus will suffice. Personally, I still have reservations about Mr. Winters’ continued involvement with the group, time will tell if I am on my own on this one but, in my opinion, some valuable members have left as a result of his continued presence and this irks me. Maybe a few less Brits would suit some members of the group? Your apparent new found "sycophancy" worries me almost as much as the original "misdemeanours"! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded)

Even more fundamental question, who decides what is "un-gentlemenly"? There are many ways to be vulgar and offensive without swearing. Is it okay to say: "F*ck off" "BS" "Bite me" "Bite my rod" I have not used an "offensive" word in the list above, the meaning is still there. If we say that none of these is acceptable, who is going to enforce it.  You say you will leave if this group becomes moderated, but short of moderation this decision is unenforceable. Let me try to put this in terms you will understand since I hear that you are a programmer.  You have coding style requirements. With the requirements alone, nothing changes, with moderate enforcement you get some change, but mostly only after the enforcement has happened upon your unfortunate soul, or you have heavy enforcement where if you don’t code properly your code doesn’t compile and won’t work until you fix the error. If you want "posting" standards the same will occur.  Write down a list of rules and don’t enforce and it means nothing. Enforce heavily and it will work, but you will have a moderator sitting there saying yah or nay to every post. Is this what you want?  I’m not in favor of moderation, but this is an academic exercise if you think writing down rules will change anything. or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected)

This is status quo. I think the only way to "change" things is through individual policing. Think about how you personally are responding and whether or not you want to be seen the way your post makes you look.  There will always be abusive people on usenet, it’s your decision about how to respond to them.  For example, if someone, oh let’s see, calls someone a "fucking moron" you can respond in kind and get in a name-calling contest or ignore the post, or just snip out the line and continue with a semi-constructive argument.  It may not change the abusive poster, but at least things won’t turn into a complete brawl and you won’t be acting like a 2nd grader. I don’t know if this helped or not, but at least it made me feel slightly better (CRAPPY weekend). Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

Umm…. ..are we gonna forget the charter and FAQ whilst everyone keeps pissing and moaning about Mr. G and what Tim REALLY meant and the rest of this Blah, Blah? I thought the "group" was serious about trying to get on track? Why don’t the limited number of you that want to continue griping about all the side issues find a chatroom to meet in and hammer this out between yourselves???

Response:

Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… ROFF Charter  Purpose of NG  Goals of NG  Rules for posting to NG  Profanity  Selling  Attachments  When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s  Equipment  Rods and Reels  Float Devices  Nets  Vests  Lines  Leaders  Accessories  Clothing  Rain Gear  Hats  Waders/Boots  Guides  Tipping  Personal Experience Stories  Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs  Regular Frequent Posters  Known Commercial Posters  Known Frequently Medicated Posters

Response:

<nice post "Any fish bite if you got good bait… I’m a going fishin’ too".<g — Charlie…

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Nice to see you back.  I still do not agree with most of what you say though. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<MERCILESS CHOP    The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track <MERCILESS CHOP   Hey, isn’t that what the investigator joker said too?  Anyway, I   can’t imagine what the hell this "back on track" acually means.  It   always was a bunch of us jackass fishers talking amongst ourselves about   whaterver we please and it always will be.   My observations of these groups (since their conception) is that for   every person who takes them (too) seriously, there are a thousand (and   climbing daily) who don’t.  If anyone wants to get with a group of   folks that are all as serious as they are should get into a   listserv – I’ll be happy to explain via email what this means.   FAQ’s for these groups are a great concept, but a waste of time.   99.44% of the time the only people aware of the FAQ are people who   don’t need it – and FAQ’s certainly don’t squelch the repetitive   discussions. cheers,   -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Q:  What’s the difference between Tim Walker’s head and a buttplug? A:  The buttplug comes out once in a while. Sorry, just had to complete the symmetry. I’ll help out on the FAQ, but someone, really anyone, has to set out a real and complete first draft of a Table of Contents.  It won’t be the final one and it won’t be right, but it will give a starting point.  I could suggest a list of 10 or so names for this job, but you guys probably know who you are.  Any volunteers?  We can’t really start without it. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ?

No offense, and with all due respect, it’s you. Swearing at people who don’t agree with you, calling people names when they don’t agree with you, doing whatever pleases you to someone who doesn’t agree with you is what makes this newsgroup so violent. If you REALLY are trying to turn over a new leaf then I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, but if you think that simply making a FAQ is going to change anything by itself you are far too optimistic. So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson.

Hey, give credit where credit is due, it was my pool.  :-) Although NOBODY was guessing this soon, you usually wait at least a couple of weeks. The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future.

<honest question Maybe you can define what a "better" ROFF looks like. – No political rants? – No ethical rants? – No swearing? – No name-calling? Unless you do some or all of those, what will change? </honest question Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ?

Sure, I’ll be happy to start over, again it’s mostly up to you though.  Your first swearing rant over someone C&R-ing a fish and we’ll be right back where we started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization..

The general info part of a FAQ is certainly a good idea.  I question the ability of a FAQ to regulate etiquette or to make a difference in the "endless threads".  The problem is that veterans already know the info and those who need the info rarely read FAQs. I would be willing to help with a general info section, but the other sections are basically futile in the chaotic USENet. Tell you what, if you can get an agreement on what a "better" ROFF looks like I’ll reconsider. I think you are underestimating the variety of viewpoints people have here. Good Luck,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

_____ Well Tim, I know nothing about this person Max that is supposed to be a rascal, but your arguments are of a reasonable man.  Of course, personally, I like most of the men in this group.  The only reason why there aren’t more ladies involved here is because . . . and then it ceases to be interesting regarding "attention spans and talking fishing?" Not important issue right now.  But I accept your reasoning. My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Response:

<lot of good stuff snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^) btw…"SECRET" flies in the mail come tuesday, just finished tying another batch of ‘em. -walt

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tim…you ‘da man…. ;^)

Yeah! — Bill

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ROFF Charter         Purpose of NG         Goals of NG         Rules for posting to NG                 Profanity                 Selling                 Attachments                 When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s         Equipment                 Rods and Reels                 Float Devices                 Nets                 Vests                 Lines                 Leaders                 Accessories         Clothing                 Rain Gear                 Hats                 Waders/Boots         Guides                 Tipping                 Personal Experience Stories         Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs         Regular Frequent Posters         Known Commercial Posters         Known Frequently Medicated Posters

Response:

Good start!  I’ve added a suggestion or two below.

: ROFF Charter :       Purpose of NG :       Goals of NG :       Rules for posting to NG :               Profanity :               Selling :               Attachments :               When to respond to Writer rather than Group : FAQ’s :       Equipment :               Rods and Reels :               Float Devices :               Nets :               Vests :               Lines :               Leaders :               Accessories :       Clothing :               Rain Gear :               Hats :               Waders/Boots :       Guides :               Tipping :               Personal Experience Stories :       Tying (see ROFFT)         General                Why are they picking on Orvis?                What do they have against Jeep Grand Cherokees?                Who is Brian Keith? : PERSONAL BIOs :       Regular Frequent Posters :       Known Commercial Posters :       Known Frequently Medicated Posters :       — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire. Lighten up….. –Walt

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire.

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Lighten up…..

Nah, I’m always too light, maybe if I called someone an imbecilic dweeb I could get in on the really good fights.  :-) Later,      - Ken P.S.  No hard feelings, I noted the smiley and please note mine in return. — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-)

Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.  I’ve no doubt some of Tim’s comments in the future will be succinct, curt, bombastic, witty, even vitriolic, but always well founded on solid principle. Can you match up to such a guy in eloquence and character? Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG) Regards, — Bill

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I am disturbed by these recent events. Restless.  Sleepless.  Bothered. What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ? IMHO – Max Whittington is, I am certain (now more than ever) a good man who made an honest mistake.  Lord knows, I have.   Moreover he made a mistake about something he is passionate about.  Lord knows, I have done that too.  Have you ? I have read carefully every post has made here and I see something different than what has been revealed by these events. First off he is helpful to the beginner.  Cordial and a gentleman.  Sincere.  He is also a hell of an investigator <g, this might be useful when the REAL loons come around <g. We can not all get mad and quit when something bad happens and I am not setting any example.  I am very sorry for that.  If we all acted like this…then there were none. —- Like the constant upstream migration of an emerging insect, with all of the odds against it, we *must* press upstream and solve this problem…. —- So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson. I can not leave the group like this.  It sucks.  It’s mean spirited and hurting.  And it is only Qayaniskatsi – Life out of balance. I do not sense mean hearts among us, anywhere, do you ? —- I have 2 serious issues.  Please bear with me The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future. —- First off…everyone…please go to www.dejanews.com and read the stuff Max posts.  He’s a good Joe, IMO (not that MY opinion is worth a ratty waterlogged adams). It is true that I felt violated by the background check and the email to my employer, but he woke my eyes up in a huge way. It may NOT be safe to have an unchecked opinion in cyberspace.  You too might want to consider this.  I am hoping to find out just what in the world is out there easily for people to find and I intend to ask Max to help me. Friends… You take the bad with the good, but you look for the good… …and I see a hell of a lot of it in that man. I challenge you to read *all* of his posts and not agree. I know (feel) that something positive is coming out of this and in the end I predict that not only will Max be a good friend to a lot of us, but that ROFF will be better, stronger and more organized place to deal with the hectic, eclectic and sometimes strange internet demands placed upon it. — Let’s use this as an opportunity to grow.  Individually, collectively… — That was my first serious issue and I am serious. Can we forgive and forget by remembering [who we are]…Royal Order of the Brothers of the Bugchuckers… Number two will just be ‘#2′  <g if we can not. Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ? Part 2. RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly Request for Discussion… We need a new FAQ for ROFF.  It is high time.   I believe that none of this would have happened if we had one and will take at some of the heat if for this alone. I’ve been around long enough that it’s at least partly my laziness that we don’t have the damned thing done yet ! John Ferriera, where are you ? Consider this…. The C&R thread has been active for at least 7-8 years ?  It has started/ended/mutated so many times that it’s *amazing*.  This can *only* speak to its relevence of it as a valid subject in our sport, or at least to a buncha people here as it relates to our sport (I am in this group that feels that it needs discussing). That, however, is *not* the point (only an example)…please view it only as such. The point is, is that it is maddening to have to justify its (the threads) existence over and over and over, like some of us have had to.  Why should I feel guilty discussing C&R ad infinitum around here ?  (or cussing or swearing…).  We have been around and around on this and I have a solid proposal. To use Max’s example: Assume that this is a club, only its like no other club in the world.  We have no limitations on membership. No education requirements or dress code.  We have no choice in the matter, really, unless we moderate the group, because this group exists in the Universe of the internet we must treat it as a subset of this Universe.   If the group becomes moderated, well…that’s fine…but then please point me to the unmoderated one. The FAQ *WILL* give credence to and justify these ongoing threads so that they will not be the targets of trivialization or condemnation.  Moreover the FAQ will set the rules of fair play in ROFF that we will all have to agree to, or move on. Certain things will be covered in the FAQ, such as "Opinions on Floatants". Hopefully, this will grow with relevent information and all of the info, such as Albolene, secret formulas and the history of George Gehrke and his product on can get thoroughly and objectively covered there once. Instead of saying "This group sucks…can we change it ?", We could say…"Uh…this part of the FAQ sucks, can we change it …?". Thus I propose a *MEMBER DETERMINED* FAQ having a "table of contents" something like: "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization.. IOW – Shouldn’t we get our collective shit together a little ? Vroman hates me for a very similar misunderstanding…we simply don’t agree on what ROFF is, but how can either of us be right if NOBODY knows what ROFF is ? By end of summer…let’s say…we all agree on what ROFF is…DEAL ? It’s something to consider…. Max, I hope you’re still with us ? Comments ? Peace. No hard feelings…. I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW What is ROFF ?

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Question:

Does anyone know of any newsgroups relating to Oregon’s fly fishing?

Response:

Hi Leif:  Iive in Clackamas and read this newsgroup pretty regularily and occaisionally post a note here.  What,s wrong with this group?

Response:

Does anyone know of any newsgroups relating to Oregon’s fly fishing?

Don’t know of any specifically for Oregon but recently joined an International news group called "The Fly Fishing List". It is excellent. Some folks from The West on it. There are lots of sites on the Net from Oregon that offer loads of info such as The Virtual Flyshop at www.flyshop.com They even have a chat room. Many others also. I’m sure a search would turn up more web sites than you’d ever want to peruse. The Gorge Fly Shop has a site I recall also. Anyone can start a news group I understand, but apparently it is quite a *chore*. Good Luck!

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Question:

Whats the best model/brand fly line? (wf5-floating)

Response:

Whats the best model/brand fly line? (wf5-floating)

My vote is for the Ultra 3 by Scientific Anglers. Take Care,

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Whats the best model/brand fly line? (wf5-floating) My vote is for the Ultra 3 by Scientific Anglers.

Considering price as well, Cortland 333 (2nd choice 444) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

I don’t know what the best line is but I can tell you to stay away from Courtlands Lazer Line.  I’ve got a DT5F that casts great….unfortunately it floats like a brick.  If I wanted a sinking line I would have bought one.  

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: Whats the best model/brand fly line? (wf5-floating) I am about to try out a WF6-F Mastery XPS.  Several fishing buddies and acquaintances think it is "the best". Cortland 444 lines last forever.  Cortland 444 SL lines tend to get sticky.  The Masterline series from Great Britain is not bad. — Burnaby, BC

Response:

Whats the best model/brand fly line? (wf5-floating)

Hello William,         There are many good fly lines available to the angler today.  All of them have attributes that may or may not be what you are looking for. I don’t think you can go wrong with any of the cortland lines.  The SL lines float well and sag very little in the eyes of your rod.  The Lazer lines have small dimples in the texture,(much like a golfball) to give you the maximum distance.  My favorite line is by Scientific Anglers.  It is the Mastery XPS.  It  is a supple line allowing great control.  Not a distance line, but I am not a distance guy.  You should go into your local shop and have them explain these subtleties. They may even haave these lines available for you to cast.  Good Luck. Paul J.

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Question:

I’m a native of Florida and have been tying my own flies for some time now. I have an assortment of 3 that Snook/Redfish and Trout kill in the backcountry of Central and South Florida. If I get good response from this message I’ll post a photo in the and sell them my mail order. Let me know what you think. -Mark Ballard I have been flyfishing in Jenson Beach area of Florida without great results..I would be interested in information on your {hot flies and how to fish them.     Thanks, TomI plan on a "business trip" to central Florida the first part of May and

plan to fish in the Titusville area.  I would like to know more about your flies and other patterns that are successful in the area.

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Mark: I am headed to S.W.Florida- would really like to have some trout and redfish flies and also the best type of places to fish them. Thanks-Alex

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I would like to hear about those flies also. Jerry Virzi

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For all these fish there are several types of flies that are very successful: 1)  Clouser Minnows 2)  Lefty’s Deceivers 3)  Crazy Charlies and other shrimp/crab immitations. These all work well on the Texas flats, assume they will work in Flordia or elsewhere.

Response:

I’m a native of Florida and have been tying my own flies for some time now. I have an assortment of 3 that Snook/Redfish and Trout kill in the backcountry of Central and South Florida. If I get good response from this message I’ll post a photo in the and sell them my mail order. Let me know what you think. -Mark Ballard

Response:

I’m a native of Florida and have been tying my own flies for some time now. I have an assortment of 3 that Snook/Redfish and Trout kill in the backcountry of Central and South Florida. If I get good response from this message I’ll post a photo in the and sell them my mail order. Let me know what you think. -Mark Ballard

I have been flyfishing in Jenson Beach area of Florida without great results..I would be interested in information on your {hot flies and how to fish them.     Thanks, Tom

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Question:

Could someone please post me detials of what this organisation does and how I can get hold of them internationally – 1800 numbers are no good to a New Zealander. Best Wishes Simon Simon Lusk Fly Fishing New Zealand on the WWW http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro Department of Consumer Technology Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand

Response:

Hi Simon The FFF’s moto is Conserving, Restoring, & Educating through Fly Fishing. Our main focus is on education, especially youth, and conservation.  To get information sent to you contact then at the following Compuserve email address: Good luck Al Beatty (former FFF President) BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT

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Could someone please post me detials of what this organisation does and how I can get hold of them internationally – 1800 numbers are no good to a New Zealander. Best Wishes Simon Lusk Fly Fishing New Zealand on the WWW http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro Department of Consumer Technology Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand

Simon, the FFF has a Web site at <http://www.wsa.com/ool/fff.html.  The site gives a lot of information as well as offering a link for E-mail. The direct tele# in Bozeman, MT is 406-585-7592. I hope this helps.   —Catch & Release— To catch a fish is human,     To release it is divine!

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Question:

keen english fly fisher visiting san francisco third week febuary enjoy both fresh and salt water need advice      please re — |                                          |

Response:

A countryman of yours runs a shop on Geary St. out around 10th Avenue, I think its called SF Flyfishers Exchange.  Very nice guy, and I’m sure he’d be of great assistance.  The Flyfishing stretch of Putah Creek is open, just below the Lake Berryessa Dam, about 1 hour north of SF.  Steelhead may be good in the north coast streams, Russian River, Smith, Gualala, Eel, but that will really depend on the weather.  Call shop when you get here, and check out the No Cal Report on this news group.–Crashjibe

Shop in question is SF Flyfishers Supply, located on Clement St. between 25th and 26th Ave. (1 Block north (?) of Geary St). Stephen Haggard/Doug Matteo owners (Haggard is the one from England) you can call them at (415) 668-3597

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Question:

I’m new to this sport and love it!  Wonder where I can go for some good fishing that is in close proximity to home (Bryan, Texas)?  I’d like to be able to get there pretty quick and still spend a couple  hours after work fishing.  Any advice?   Also, I’m going to be down near Corpus Christi in July, any suggestions there?   Thanks in advance for the advice! Mark Klemm

Response:

I’m new to this sport and love it!  Wonder where I can go for some good fishing that is in close proximity to home (Bryan, Texas)?  I’d like to be able to get there pretty quick and still spend a couple  hours after work fishing.  Any advice?   Also, I’m going to be down near Corpus Christi in July, any suggestions there?   Thanks in advance for the advice! Mark Klemm

Mark, almost any place that has fish, you can fly fish.  Don’t think that it is restricted to trout.  If you want to fish for trout however, try the Guadalupe where it comes out of Canyon(?) Dam.  That area is stocked, and is currently getting good press about the success of the program. Also, you can fly fish the same Guadalupe for bass. Small streamers are best, however even large wooly buggers and mariboo steamers will work…..   Dee Crabtree DeeCrab*ibm.net

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