Question:

<delightfully perverse poetry snipped Artfully done, Mr. Connor! It never would have occurred to me to rhyme "succour" and "motherfucker". I lay my sword at your feet.

Could I borrow it to "slay the dragon"?   This abyss is a bit of a trial at times. TL MC

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …….I refuse to respond to Mike Con again…… Oh, nobody’s EVER gonna remember THIS line! Wolfgang is it just me or have absolutes somehow become…..well, less absolute? Naw, it’s just a matter of abstract perspective…

Some are more abstract than others. MC

Response:

YES SIR!  I read you loud and clear.  You got my attention Nightbutcher!  I consider myself chewed out and you’re right.  I refuse to respond to Mike Con again.. Gosh!  I needed that.

I hear Las Vegas is taking bets on this one right now.

Response:

YES SIR!  I read you loud and clear.  You got my attention Nightbutcher!  I consider myself chewed out and you’re right.  I refuse to respond to Mike Con again.. Gosh!  I needed that.

Thank you — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

says… Sir, you are apparently attempting to abridge my right of free speech. There are some on here who will take you to task for that.

Not at all – just trying to abridge a pointless and childish contest on ALL sides that is really starting to irritate the rest of the people who lurk here.  You always have the right to speak out against my speaking out (in fact you just did), just as I have the right to tell you and George to shut the hell up and give it a break. Surprising how many psychiatrists we suddenly have on here.  Where were you when you were needed?

Not a psychiatrist, and I was lurking, hoping it would all go away and settle down like real adults. I was not aware of any unduly unsteady motion. Threats of physical violence, or being actually touched with a cursed object, are relatively futile threats. Your kill-file option would seem the more sensible of those available.  Inserting sticks up somebodies rectum ,is then, in your opinion, an adult way of pursuing things? Strikes me as simply shit being pushed the wrong way.

Better than the shit that’s being pushed this way under the guise of rational Usenet posts…..  and that applies to BOTH of you.  I refuse to take sides. "If you dont like it dont read it". Is I believe the standard panacea for all ills, real or perceived, at this present time?

Too true.  I herewith retire back to lurking yet again.  Plonkity plonk…. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

<SNIP "If you dont like it dont read it". Is I believe the standard panacea for all ills, real or perceived, at this present time? Too true.  I herewith retire back to lurking yet again.  Plonkity plonk…. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

My apologies for coming down so heavily on you, for what was in fact a perfectly reasonable post. I am perhaps a trifle oversensitive regarding criticism of my actions at this present time. Being compared to Gehrke, or indeed even being mentioned in the same post,  is also not exactly flattering. It was not my intention to upset an honest poster, who is just sick of shit. I therefore beg your indulgence. Your apparent decision to use a kill-file on something you do not want to see, is eminently sensible. TL MC

Response:

With Red Tags on in fact.  

An Aussie? A New Zealander? ?? Steve

Response:

Sheath the sword, ’twas bound to happen, LR’s come up with a better weapon. Connor and I’ve looked in the abyss, I think it’s best that we fill it with piss. A little Harp, a Weiss Bier, fill the Flagon! Stand on the rim, drown the fucking dragon. the meter needs work, but aren’t those some nice rhymes? Succour – motherfucker. Masterful. I never stop learning from you, Mike.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <delightfully perverse poetry snipped Artfully done, Mr. Connor! It never would have occurred to me to rhyme "succour" and "motherfucker". I lay my sword at your feet. Could I borrow it to "slay the dragon"?   This abyss is a bit of a trial at times. TL MC

Response:

I’ll have to come over there and insert a bastard rod into two assholes – sideways. With hooks attached.  With Red Tags on in fact.  With Clowser Minnows as droppers even……

ethical. (don’t forget to post a TR on the chromes, have a great trip). — The Halfordian Golfer The deceipt ends with the lure.

Response:

….Gather round good anglers, be bright and perky,

A delight to see you again, sweetie! Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….Gather round good anglers, be bright and perky, A delight to see you again, sweetie! Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Dear lady, the pleasure is all mine. I am very happy indeed to see you on here. I feared indeed that events might have obliged you to depart.Hope you got some good fishing in during my absence. TL MC

Response:

With Red Tags on in fact.   An Aussie? A New Zealander? ?? Steve

Aussie – Red Tag works well in most conditions in Tasmanian Highland Lakes ) — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

Response:

Hope you got some good fishing in during my absence.

A little, and I have made good progress on my rod collection, too.  <g Fall and early winter mean a great deal of work and little spare time for me, but I emerge again in spring, ready to play.  Hope to get in a day’s fishing here and there on weekends despite the awful schedule. Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

Aussie – Red Tag works well in most conditions in Tasmanian Highland Lakes )

  So I’ve heard, but comparing the situation you were going to use them   in and the Highlands … well …  ;-)     Perhaps we’ll hear some of your exploits in the Highlands one of these   days … Steve (bemoaning the fact that ANOTHER Bass Strait crossing looks like being  postponed)

Response:

…….I refuse to respond to Mike Con again…… Oh, nobody’s EVER gonna remember THIS line! Wolfgang is it just me or have absolutes somehow become…..well, less absolute?

Notice the out he left himself there, though. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …….I refuse to respond to Mike Con again…… Oh, nobody’s EVER gonna remember THIS line! Wolfgang is it just me or have absolutes somehow become…..well, less absolute? Notice the out he left himself there, though.

Stick around.  You ain’t seen NUTHIN yet!    :) Wolfgang where else ya gonna get the fourth of july six, seven, eight times a year?

Response:

My commiserations to your unfortunate guests. Must be hell.  Do you allow them to fly your sabres around the studio?  Does that drown out the piano?How many fingers am I holding up? There is a man who sometimes makes, nasty oily stuff, and burns a lot of stakes, He is sadly often seen on here, suffering from chronic verbal diarreah. This of course is very very sad, but things would not be quite as bad, if the asshole did not really stink, or try to sell his stakes and gink. Despite all pleas, he still remains, a curse, like something from the drains, vile and putrid, seemingly beyond chastisement, indulging yet again his lunacy, and aggrandisement. His lies and silly tales are quite beyond the pale, over his poor manners, we must draw a veil, and still, try to believe it if you can, the ignorant boorish oaf thinks he

Question:

Being a new guy here, I don’t know shit…(get out the keyboard soap) but evidently Mikey must live in a coutry where they charge by the minute for phones and access….without experimenting until my brain slips a cog (happens often-sorry) wouldn’t it be possible to download this newsgroup on a regular basis, zip the files and e-mail them to him?? wouldn’t that save him a few bucks  (400 is much more than a few)….?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry I started the USA vs Brits thread as an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts that were being made at that particular time.

Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture. When someone insults a country on Usenet you can expect angry replies, and rightly so. The "Indian Rights" thing started when someone posted a claim that commercial fishing, not the Lower Snake dams, was responsible for the decline of the Snake River salmon, and that morphed into Indian Rights. A thread that to one person is nothing but off-topic rants might be very interesting to someone else. I found the Indian Rights thread to have value, once you got past the race baiting, but I can see why a European might get bored by it. Some Europeans seem miffed that Usenet is dominated by Yanks. Too bad. Let them post some European-specific stuff. I won’t mind at all. I thought Mike Connor changed his telephone to a flat-rate service. Why the $400? It’s really no one’s responsibility in ROFF to keep Mike’s or anyone else’s Usenet-related bills down. Hell, we can reduce them to nearly zero by just shutting down the whole thing. I hope MC returns. I liked some of his doggerel verse and his prose fiction, he obviously knows a lot about many kinds of fishing, he added a welcome and needed European perspective to ROFF, and he’s generally a very smart and creative person. But I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture.

The fact of the matter is it started off as a joke.  Tony and I were joking around,at least that was the impression that I got.  Some people took this a little too serious and then the thread ended up with threats.  I think that is what really pissed Mike off. Believe me RW, I am not losing any sleep over this either.  It does bother me because Mike was a valuable source of knowledge.  I was constantly amazed at the amount of info that man had locked in his brain housing group.  The part that I liked most was that he didn’t try and make you feel stupid about it either. I sent Mike an email once expressing my appreciation for his help on several things I had questions with.  Mike would typically point me in the direction so that I could research the topic on my own and give me a few pointers of his own.  It was always short, helpful and contributed greatly to my own knowledge base. I am not saying that Mike C was the only person with lots of knowledge on a broad variety of topics, but he was a class act that is going to be missed by those who ask lots of questions around here.  Not to mention his writings….. Warren

Response:

It won’t be the same as having him on ROFF, but he does write a column and have a chat  group on "Fly Anglers on Line" http://www.flyanglersonline.com/ Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff:   http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, a Brit named Tony Deacon started the whole thing (not that particular thread) with a totally gratuitous insult of American culture. The fact of the matter is it started off as a joke.  Tony and I were joking around,at least that was the impression that I got.  Some people took this a little too serious and then the thread ended up with threats.  I think that is what really pissed Mike off. Believe me RW, I am not losing any sleep over this either.  It does bother me because Mike was a valuable source of knowledge.  I was constantly amazed at the amount of info that man had locked in his brain housing group.  The part that I liked most was that he didn’t try and make you feel stupid about it either. I sent Mike an email once expressing my appreciation for his help on several things I had questions with.  Mike would typically point me in the direction so that I could research the topic on my own and give me a few pointers of his own.  It was always short, helpful and contributed greatly to my own knowledge base. I am not saying that Mike C was the only person with lots of knowledge on a broad variety of topics, but he was a class act that is going to be missed by those who ask lots of questions around here.  Not to mention his writings….. Warren

Response:

        have i missed something here?  where the hell has connor gone? vacation?  work?  pissed?  under arrest? wayno

Response:

        have i missed something here?  where the hell has connor gone? vacation?  work?  pissed?  under arrest?

Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry

What a shame.  One of the more enjoyable personalities on ROFF, IMO.  Always enjoyed his stories. Keith Brewster

Response:

Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry

I started the USA vs Brits thread as an attempt to lighten the mood of the posts that were being made at that particular time. I in no way meant to hurt anybody’s feelings and if you look at the original post I think that is evident.  Mike was usually the first one  that responded to me when I would post a question and I will surely miss him if he is truly gone. Mike, if you were offended in any way by my USA vs Brit post, I apologize. Tim

Response:

Could it possibly be that he is busy with personal things? He’ll be back.  He’s just busy.  Mike is not the type of man that would go away in a snit without saying good-bye. I miss him but will not help to clutter up his mail box by e-mailing him.  Just give him a little room, folks.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

He told me the same in an email over the weekend.  I surmised that he is very busy as well, but the tone of his message didn’t leave me with the impression that he was interested in returning to this happy band. Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting the ultimate practitioner.                                                 Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

He told me the same in an email over the weekend.  I surmised that he is very busy as well, but the tone of his message didn’t leave me with the impression that he was interested in returning to this happy band.

What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

… He didn’t say bye… I wonder why…

He’s a class act, that’s why. If one decides to filter another poster or unsubscribe from a newsgroup one simply does so. No whiny recriminations, wounded, emotional farewells or parting shots necessary or appropriate. Mike’s last post was titled "Guilty". It was eloquent, and as appropriate a farewell as I’ve seen. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Mike evidently never considered it necessary to remind anyone on this group that he was "Your pal," and he was right.  Your constant reminder notwithstanding I suspect few will miss you as much as we will Mike. "Guilt debased the meal…"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

He did say bye, He did say why, He just didn’t serve it up Like yesterday’s pie. Peter

Response:

He didn’t say bye…

I think it was when you were off sulking the latest time. — Charlie…

Response:

Good one Charlie Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He didn’t say bye… I think it was when you were off sulking the latest time. — Charlie…

Response:

EEEHH   GADS! Come back Mikey – all other verse is worthless without ye! RalphH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" He did say bye, He did say why, He just didn’t serve it up Like yesterday’s pie. Peter

Response:

If it is indeed true that Mike has left for the reasons listed below, then I’m inclined to think that the whole "ROFF is Darwinian" concept isn’t as great as some have made it out to be. I for one thought Mike’s posts were a rare species worth protecting from extinction. Steve Zimmerman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Left for the following reasons (in order): 1. Spam 2. Indian Rights 3. USA vs. Brits 4. Nasty emails vis-a-vis #2 & 3 5. #1-3 cost him over $400 last month. Says he doubts that he will return.

Response:

Bullseye! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a whimp. He leaves, we grieves, and goze limp. He didn’t say bye… I wonder why… Not gonna cry… just wonder why. Your pal, "Guilt replaced the creel…" Mike evidently never considered it necessary to remind anyone on this group that he was "Your pal," and he was right.  Your constant reminder notwithstanding I suspect few will miss you as much as we will Mike. "Guilt debased the meal…"

Response:

Question:

Hi, I maybe heading to the Lower Deschutes during the third week in May.  Does anyone know what I can expect as to the fishing that time of year ?  What hatches, river levels etc.,  What weight rod would be the best ?  Any recommendations to local advice/fly shops. Thanks in advance.

Response:

Hi, I maybe heading to the Lower Deschutes during the third week in May.  Does anyone know what I can expect as to the fishing that time of year ?  What hatches, river levels etc.,  What weight rod would be the best ?  Any recommendations to local advice/fly shops. Thanks in advance.

WIth snow levels this year, I think you can probably expect high water; snow pack is about double a normal year. A 9 foot, five weight rod with a floating line will work for most situations you’ll encounter on the Deschutes. Deep nymphing is the most consistently successful method on the lower river. The salmonfly hatch should be getting started, as well as the golden stoneflies. BIG, heavily weighted stonefly nymphs in black and gold. Black and golden stimulators for the adults. Caddis: Rhyacophilia, hydropsyche, Glossoma, Brachycentra: larvae, pupae, and adults. Mayflies: Baetis, Heptagenia, maybe some early PMDs. Midges. Local shops: The Deschutes Canyon fly shop in Maupin, The Fly Fishing Shop in Welches.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-  Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.  Are you just using a regular pull scales or what?  And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records".  MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc.  This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies.  Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong.  I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures.  Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch.  Etc, etc.  But I find serious disagreement with your percentages.  Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function.  For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better".  I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like.  Just need a mailing address Ralph.   Mr. G.

Response:

Hi George-  Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing. . .  It means consistant breaking

or parting percentages every time.    I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers.   Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  

   That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.

Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.

Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…

For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you).   No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.

Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio

Response:

Hi Rick-   The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.   -Ralph

Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/                            /v/

– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Great .sig file Anglerboy !.  You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.

I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.

Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer

As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate.  If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   (much blather snipped)   Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test   that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would   bother with such a product streamside.   Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t   imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside   or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.   Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute   in the realms of flesh and sun   breaks down more pain than ages   of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"

Response:

Hi Jon-   We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip.    When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity.    The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests.    -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

Response:

Hi Rick-    The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

RALPH, you are not a dipshit.  Christ.  Loosen up.  What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth.  Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit.  What I say is based on sound facts.  If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect.  As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph.  I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL.  Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this.  You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break.  This comes with experience.  It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known.  A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc.  However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do.  Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing.  I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls.  The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT!  The knots aren’t burnt.  The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  This means what?  It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before.  A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception.  This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing.  Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters.  In fact, none of us do.  The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests.  I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece?  I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.  And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no.  I don’t know everything.  I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either.  I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone.  But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread.  I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT:  I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima.  I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it.  No Sir.  Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons.  When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. Everyone.

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,

While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    (much blather snipped)     Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test     that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would     bother with such a product streamside.    Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t    imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside    or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.    Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.  It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.

Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.

Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Response:

..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.

…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G.

Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%.  The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%.  The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%.  These results I’ve seen repeatedly.  These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

But of course.  This is the one I tie best.  Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator!  :-)   -Ralph

Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS:  ’Love your book, Ralph.  It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers.  Keep up the good work.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?

Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points.  I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.

Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know.  Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

Response:

Question:

Hi Group Due computer problems I my regular email will not be working. I will answer emails as soon as I get back on line. If any of you need to contact me before then you can do so at my wife’s email Being off line will give me a lot more time to tie flies. Good tying… — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

the computer was a simple fix, back on-line. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Dutch government intends to forbid live bait fishing (i.e., fishing with living fish, minnows, etc.) starting January 1, 1997.  If you think this is none of your business, please read on.  Eventually, perhaps sooner than you think, this plan might restrict anyone’s freedom to fish. Not allowing live bait fishing is of course nothing new.  It is in effect in several countries in Europe and, if I am correctly informed, also in some states in the US of A.  Some fishing associations also allow only artificial bait in (some of) the waters they rent.  The reasons vary from country tot country and from place to place.  So what else is new, why should you care? What’s new is, that our government uses an ethical argument: the fish feel pain, suffer, etc.  As you might expect, our government’s current viewpoint is the result of a protracted lobby of the Dutch Animal Rights movement, which have for years argued against fishing for ethical reasons, although the scientific basis for ‘the ethical argument’ seems to be weak.  In fact, neurological evidence points in the opposite direction: fish don’t have the brain structures that are held responsible for feelings of pain and suffering in mammals. Forbidding life bait fishing for ethical reasons is alarming, because once you use an ethical argument against life bait fishing, it’s hard not to apply it to fishing in general and, consequently, forbid fishing entirely.  Of course, the long-term goal of our Animal Rights movement is just that. If fishing is no longer allowed in one country, this will surely encourage Animal Rights movements in other countries to strive for something similar. It is for this reason that I think that fishermen in other countries should care. Lots of fishermen in The Netherlands have written letters of protest to the political parties that support the government’s intention.  Letters from fishermen in other countries would also be most welcome and very much appreciated, the more the better.  We have ridiculously many political parties, but four of them really matter here: PvdA, D66, VVD, and CDA (the latter two do not have a very strong opinion on the matter, but they are among the largest parties). If you would like to support us, please send an E-mail to them.  They should be addressed as follows:                             E-mail address If you write a letter of protest, please be polite.  It wouldn’t do any harm, however, when you pointed out that you would not feel terribly at ease in a country that forbids life bait fishing and that therefore … Because I would like to know whether a protest like this can be organized on the net, I would appreciate being informed by those who do send a letter of I’ll let you know what happens. This is the first posting of this letter.  It will probably be posted by me two times more in the next two weeks. Leo Beem E-mail:

until it’s too late.We in America keep suupporting ,subconciously,politicians who have no balls to stand up to Amimal rights nonsense.Just like gun-ownership and hunting,we will become the fringe ,as the media and liberal politician will paint us .Then ultimately bans on bait will be seen as the middle ground,and then bans on hook barbs,thenbans on anything but fly fishing,then a total ban.And yes ,the fly fishermen will go along with all of this,as their exclusive sense of moral righteousness,and sportsmanship will encourage this type of political crap.     If you don’t believe me,go talk to some members of trout unlimited,who will tell you they are ethically superior in their means of sportsmanship,Of course baitfishing is considered "unsporting" and fishing with barbed hooks is "deadly to the fish".     The other example I have to offer is the so-called assault weapon.Go to a skeet match and speak to the elite shotgunners with Perazzi’s and Beretta’s.They will tell you what neanderthals those men are who own semi-auto rifles and large magazines.They will tell you they should be banned.So you see,Americans have no unity in their ranks.We will lose our outdoor heritage,as our membership continues to compromise on what they consider moral,and ethical

Response:

The Dutch government intends to forbid live bait fishing (i.e., fishing with living fish, minnows, etc.) starting January 1, 1997.  If you think this is none of your business, please read on.  Eventually, perhaps sooner than you think, this plan might restrict anyone’s freedom to fish. Not allowing live bait fishing is of course nothing new.  It is in effect in several countries in Europe and, if I am correctly informed, also in some states in the US of A.  Some fishing associations also allow only artificial bait in (some of) the waters they rent.  The reasons vary from country tot country and from place to place.  So what else is new, why should you care?  What’s new is, that our government uses an ethical argument: the fish feel pain, suffer, etc.  As you might expect, our government’s current viewpoint is the result of a protracted lobby of the Dutch Animal Rights movement, which have for years argued against fishing for ethical reasons, although the scientific basis for ‘the ethical argument’ seems to be weak.  In fact, neurological evidence points in the opposite direction: fish don’t have the brain structures that are held responsible for feelings of pain and suffering in mammals.   Forbidding life bait fishing for ethical reasons is alarming, because once you use an ethical argument against life bait fishing, it’s hard not to apply it to fishing in general and, consequently, forbid fishing entirely. Of course, the long-term goal of our Animal Rights movement is just that. If fishing is no longer allowed in one country, this will surely encourage Animal Rights movements in other countries to strive for something similar. It is for this reason that I think that fishermen in other countries should care. Lots of fishermen in The Netherlands have written letters of protest to the political parties that support the government’s intention.  Letters from fishermen in other countries would also be most welcome and very much appreciated, the more the better.  We have ridiculously many political parties, but four of them really matter here: PvdA, D66, VVD, and CDA (the latter two do not have a very strong opinion on the matter, but they are among the largest parties). If you would like to support us, please send an E-mail to them.  They should be addressed as follows:                             E-mail address If you write a letter of protest, please be polite.  It wouldn’t do any harm, however, when you pointed out that you would not feel terribly at ease in a country that forbids life bait fishing and that therefore … Because I would like to know whether a protest like this can be organized on the net, I would appreciate being informed by those who do send a letter I’ll let you know what happens. This is the first posting of this letter.  It will probably be posted by me two times more in the next two weeks. Leo Beem

Response:

Please be aware that in many states in the good old USA live bait is restricted for reasons other than cruelty. Many fish species used for bait are not indigenous to the local ecology. Introducing foreign species to certain lakes and ponds can wreak havoc and destroy the local ecology. These introduced species can thrive in ares where natural competition is not present. Many states restrict live bait for these reasons. You would be amazed how many so called sportsmen have introduced fish species into local ecologies via bait and or intentionally trying to stock and improve their local fishery. A VERY bad idea.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am suppose to go camping for the whole month of August on the north shore of the St-Laurent River.  I will be going in the surrounddings of the Lac St-Jean. Parc Mingan, Gaspesie, P.E.I., New brunswick, Nova Scotia and finally Maine. I would be please if there was somebody out there that could advice me on  more specific place to go and flies and method of fishing to use Richard  457-3067 montreal

Response:

I am suppose to go camping for the whole month of August on the north shore of the St-Laurent River.  I will be going in the surrounddings of the Lac St-Jean. Parc Mingan, Gaspesie, P.E.I., New brunswick, Nova Scotia and finally Maine. I would be please if there was somebody out there that could advice me on  more specific place to go and flies and method of fishing to use Richard  457-3067 montreal

Response:

Richard, You didn’t say what part of Maine you need info for.  A couple suggestions if your plans are flexible. The West Branch of the Penobscot river west of Millinocket is the premier landlocked salmon river in New England.  The area below Ripogenus dam down past the entrance to Baxter State PArk is considered best.  Check the locals for specific flies/hatches, but bring along some hornbergs, green ghost, gray ghost, elk hair caddis and royal wullfs as a starter. The area around Moosehead lake and Rangely lake is also a good spot.  Try the Roach river, Cupsptic River, Moose river, Little Kennebago, Magalloway River with the same flies mentioned above, in addition to an current hatch-matching selections.  The Maine Guide fly shop in Greenville near Moosehead lake is a good place to check for current information. You could also call LL Bean in Freeport Maine and ask for the fishing department.   They keep track of what is going on all over the state. Tight Lines, Gerry Crow

Response:

Question:

Any suggestions for where to find flyfishing sites on the worldwide web? Is this in a fishing FAQ?  If so where is it?                  /                 /                                            John Woodling              o/                                             Sacramento, CA              /                                                                <     <

Response:

Any suggestions for where to find flyfishing sites on the worldwide web? Is this in a fishing FAQ?  If so where is it?

I keep a fly fishing web page mostly dedicated to the state of Arizona, but also with some more general information, including a long list of links to other pages.  I hope this helps. John Shannon Fly Fishing in Arizona http://www.indirect.com/user/jshannon

Response:

Any suggestions for where to find flyfishing sites on the worldwide

web? For starters, try  http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~jsuchosk/fish/fishpage This has a lot of hypertext leads to other places.  It’ll keep you surfing until the green drakes hatch.                                           Catch and release,                                                              Phil Holt

Response:

: Any suggestions for where to find flyfishing sites on the worldwide web? : Is this in a fishing FAQ?  If so where is it? :     Hi- FAQ URL: http://www.geo.mtu.edu:80/~jsuchosk/fish/all-faqs.html List of flyfishing web sites (and fishing sites in general): http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/fishing.htm Hope this helps, Diane

Response:

Question:

RE: Attractor patterns. We here in the east fish such great waters as the east branch of the croton river ( New York Suburbs) and the west branch of the delaware ( pennsylvania). These waters are so heavily fished that the trout usually will ignore everything you can throw at them that matches the hatch. When we see this happening, we usually tie on something like a parmachene belle, which is a gaudy silver, blue and red. Ive seen alot of wary rainbows fall for it when nothing else produces. Neil Ferri – New York — Neil Ferri New York

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello from Iowa-        Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?        Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                Tight Lines,                                                Ryan Maas P.S. Anyone passing through the Des Moines, Ames area in late spring…and willing to stoop to tackling bass? — Ryan Maas

I would agree that the Madison requires hatch matching more than any stream I know.  However, I have had luck on both the South Fork of the Snake and the Yellowstone River using a Royal Wulff during prehatch, and on days when nothing else seemed to work.  I love the Royal Wulff, and find that it is just what Lee Wulff said it was, a trout’s strawberry shortcake.  As far as other attactors, the South Fork had a spell (three or four years ago) when Double Renegades and variations on the Double R worked wonders during June. Several years ago, a video on the South Fork showed anglers slaying cuts on trudes.  I have never tried one there.  Hare’s ears work well on all of these waters, especially during the spring, and mostly for white fish.  But heh, when the trout wont hit, tight lines are tight lines. Finally, I know that creeks and smaller streams are not what you’re talking about, but attactors work incredibly well on the smaller streams, and if anyone sticks up his or her nose at your throwing a Royal Wulff on a famous river, just smile to yourself when that big brown slams it like there’s no tomorrow. GOOD LUCK!!

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Hello from Iowa-         Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?         Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                 Tight Lines,                                                 Ryan Maas P.S. Anyone passing through the Des Moines, Ames area in late spring…and willing to stoop to tackling bass? — Ryan Maas

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Sheeeoot yeah, attractors work on the rivers you mention.  Wulffs and trudes work great on the Madison, esp. in thhhe area between Hebgen and Quake Lakes (in my experience).  As a guide, working in and around Yellowstone Park, I use all those flies regularly. The hugest fish I hooked (and lost) last summer was on Nelson’s Spring Creek, and I hooked it on a (GASP!) Wooly Bugger dead-drifted past some weeds.  One day on the Lamar, my client caught 24 cutts on Grey and Royal Wulffs. . .in 2 hours. So don’t let any Nancy-Boy purists put down attractors.  While it’s true that hatch-matching works best when there is a hatch going on (f’rinstance, during the PMD hatches on the Lamar, no self-respecting cutt would look at a Wulff), there have been many times where some- thing big and ugly has turned a crappy day into something good. I’d rather fish a dry fly any day of the week, and I’ll often fish dry when others have given up.  However, when all else fails, buggerize them. Phil

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The three you inquire about are on my short list. The Royal Trude is perhaps my favorite dry fly,

I agree 100%, it is my #1 producer especially during caddis hatches!!! It’s only drawback is that it gets destroyed pretty easily after a few bruisers get their teeth into it.  Tie ‘em from #12 to #18.   Happy Trails,                                                Steve Jackson

                                         Quint McDonald                                          Hewlett Packard                                          Corvallis Oregon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello from Iowa-         Has anyone had experience, successful I may add, with attractor patterns such as Humpies, Trudes, any of the Wulffs, Woolly Buggers, Hare’s Ears, and the like, on trout found in such heavily hit waters as the Madison and especially the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake.  I’ve had limited success with ants and Royal Wulff’s (impressionistic of beetles I presume) on the Last Chance run on the Henrys’ and regular success with Montana Stones and the ubiquitous Elk Hair Caddis on the Madison.  Does this mirror others’ experiences on these waters or other waters of similar nature?  Are these trout truly as demanding as the mag writers make them out to be (spring creek trout notwithstanding)?         Second, it seems that while attractor patterns, especially dries and the Woolly Bugger, were in vogue several years ago (probably before my start), they have lost favor again to the small and prescise school of flies. Is this true and are my wishes to fish them going against some yuppy’s notion of true dry fly fishing?  I do love the take on an attractor pattern.                                                 Tight Lines,                                                 Ryan Maas

Can’t speak for the Henrys’ Fork of the Snake, but trudes, humpies and wooly buggers are as productive and popular as ever here in Montana. Royal Trudes, yellow or red Humpies, and black, brown, or olive Wooly Buggers are on my don’t leave home without list.  These patterns work for most of the summer season but the attractors are especially effective during the hopper season from the end of July through August. Wooly Buggers are best fished as streamers (of-course) and early spring is best for rainbow and fall is best for browns. I fish the Madison, Yellowstone, and Gallatin most of the year (yes, even winter) and have come to count on a short list of proven patterns. The three you inquire about are on my short list. The Royal Trude is perhaps my favorite dry fly, right up there with a modified Adams that I tie with a bright shiny blue body. As for the trout IQ level of the big three streams above…  Depends on who you talk to. Certain areas of each river get alot of fishing pressure and there are days when nothing much is happening.  It is doublely satisfying when I can rise to the challenge and land a beautiful 17" brown from beneath a bridge that gets a daily mix of dogs, kids, winch and cable fishermen, and rafters.                                                 Happy Trails,                                                 Steve Jackson

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                   NCFF MINI CONCLAVE                 SATURDAY, MARCH 13,1993 The sixth North Coast Fly Fishers’ Mini Concclave is a focal point of fly fishing education, instruction, and communication for northeastern Ohio. This annual event will be held on Saturday, March 13, 1993 at Pentitentiary Glen in the Lake County Metroparks.  

AND, IN THE LOWER LEFTHAND CORNER OF THE USA…      The Southwest Council FFF Conclave will be April 3-4 at the Long Beach Convention Center (across the harbor from the Queen Mary), probably the biggest flyfishing show in Southern California.  Speakers/presenters will include Poul Jorgensen, Maggie Merriman, Lani Waller, and the proverbial cast of thousands whose names I don’t have at hand.  The SWC conclave is probably the biggest of the regional FFF conclaves. — * Bruce Pencek    Political Science Dept   UNLV    Las Vegas, NV  89154-5029 | *  "To him, all good things — trout as well as eternal salvation — come by | * grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy."   Norman Maclean |

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                        NCFF MINI CONCLAVE                      SATURDAY, MARCH 13,1993 The sixth North Coast Fly Fishers’ Mini Concclave is a focal point of fly fishing education, instruction, and communication for northeastern Ohio. This annual event will be held on Saturday, March 13, 1993 at Pentitentiary Glen in the Lake County Metroparks.  Ther will be "hands-on" programs for people interested in learning fly fishing skills–including casting, fly tying, terminal tackle, stream tactics, reading the water, fish behavior, and fly fishing strategies.  In addition, there will continuous demonstrations of numerous fly fishing skills, exhibitions by tackle dealers of the newest equipment, and displays by various fly fishing clubs of their activities and interest. P.S. I am sorry for posting this so late but I just now learned how to do it.

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