Question:

Bob Have you tried really small baits??   I use 3" twisty tails on a very light jig with 6lb test on tough days.  Just a thought. Merry Christmas and catch one for me cause all the water up here is hard. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I may have mentioend once or twice before that I like to play around fishing the canals when I only have a few hours to fish.  During warm weather its great.  I have found where to catch a few, and they are always there.  Not many keepers, but lots of fun on light tackle with an occassional nice fish. Since the weather turned cooler they have all disappeared.  I know the bass still have to be there somewhere.  But I can’t find them.  I have heard that when the weather turns cold they head for deeper water, but I’m talking about canals here.  What deeper water? — Bob La Londe The Security Consultant http://www.diycomponents.com 849 S Ave C Yuma, Az 85364 (928)782-9765 ofc (928)782-7873 fax ROC 103044, C-12 ROC 103047, L-67

Response:

Bob Have you tried really small baits??   I use 3" twisty tails on a very light jig with 6lb test on tough days.  Just a thought. Merry Christmas and catch one for me cause all the water up here is hard.

You have my condolences.  Down here we only have to deal with hard water in our plumbing. I’ll try some smaller stuff like that for probing the bottom.  I usually use small stuff like1/8 oz spinners when it gets tough, but I forgot about using smaller bottom probing stuff. I even just picked up some small jigs because I want to try some float and fly next weekend floating a couple miles of the Colorado river. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve I may have mentioend once or twice before that I like to play around fishing the canals when I only have a few hours to fish.  During warm weather its great.  I have found where to catch a few, and they are always there.  Not many keepers, but lots of fun on light tackle with an occassional nice fish. Since the weather turned cooler they have all disappeared.  I know the bass still have to be there somewhere.  But I can’t find them.  I have heard that when the weather turns cold they head for deeper water, but I’m talking about canals here.  What deeper water? — Bob La Londe The Security Consultant http://www.diycomponents.com 849 S Ave C Yuma, Az 85364 (928)782-9765 ofc (928)782-7873 fax ROC 103044, C-12 ROC 103047, L-67

Response:

I may have mentioend once or twice before that I like to play around fishing the canals when I only have a few hours to fish.  During warm weather its great.  I have found where to catch a few, and they are always there.  Not many keepers, but lots of fun on light tackle with an occassional nice fish. Since the weather turned cooler they have all disappeared.  I know the bass still have to be there somewhere.  But I can’t find them.  I have heard that when the weather turns cold they head for deeper water, but I’m talking about canals here.  What deeper water? — Bob La Londe The Security Consultant http://www.diycomponents.com 849 S Ave C Yuma, Az 85364 (928)782-9765 ofc (928)782-7873 fax ROC 103044, C-12 ROC 103047, L-67

Response:

Question:

Not being a fish I can’t say for certain but… Just because the fly in you hand looks to the angler like the fly that is hatching doesn’t mean that the fish sees it the same. I bet that there was something that the fish saw that was different enough that it ignored the imitation and went after the real thing. The caddis was something familiar but without something to compare it to. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Took the recently acquired 2 wt. out to my favorite stream yesterday for some mid summer midging.  When I arrived, I observed trout feeding on the surface but couldn’t see what they were feeding on.  When I got on the water I saw tiny, cream colored insects hatching and flying off the waters surface.  This is exactly what I had hoped for.  I was prepared with a handy selection of cream colored midges ranging in size from 20-24 and was eager to use the 2wt. in this setting.  After watching my presentations be ignored for over 45 minutes in every size category,  I  decided that if I was going to fish dry and not catch anything, I may as well fish with something I could darn well see. So, I tied on a size 16 elk hair caddis and on the first cast was hooked onto a nice rainbow.  I proceeded to catch 3 more bows in a 30 minute span.  Much to my dismay, the skies had turned dark and the boomers were signaling that I should exit the stream. I still can’t figure it out…..there was absolutely nothing on the water the size of the caddis I was fishing.  In fact, it looked like a darn freighter among canoes where the hatch is concerned. Could it be that it was just so big and juicy looking the fish couldn’t turn it away?  Ideas, thoughts welcome and appreciated.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On some heavily fished waters, especially where the fish are highly educated, this technique is not quite as successful, as the fish are often simply too wary, but it will still work often enough.  Tactics for use on specific waters vary, but one thing is certain, now matter how wary a fish becomes, it has to eat to survive, and if you find the right fly in this case, and present it properly, you will invariably be successful. In my experience, and in that of many others, as is well documented in the literature, you may catch at least ninety percent of the trout you find on any reasonable fly,  correctly served.  The other ten per cent will prove more difficult, and may require other more specific prescriptions. Often this ten per cent includes the larger fish. They got large because they are naturally more wary than their brethren, or because they live in "impossible" places, which can not be reached suitably with a fly.  In some cases, most especially with some big browns, the fish are almost entirely piscivorous, and a normal dry fly or nymph is seldom taken.  A streamer or a large bug like a hopper may prove useful for such fish.  Or even something like a large woolly bugger, fished deep near a known lie. Or it may be necessary to fish for them at night.  These fish rarely have anything but fish in their stomachs. An inspection of the stomach contents of practically any trout, will invariably show that the fish has taken all sorts of things, ( the piscivorous fish excluded of course ),  even when a specific hatch is in progress, and though these insects ( often the nymphs especially), may dominate, there are always other insects in there as well. This is also one reason why even more or less hopeless anglers, using awful technique and equipment , terrible presentation, and more than likely lousy flies as well, still manage to catch a few fish. None of the above applies to sea-trout or salmon, or indeed to other anadromous fish which normally cease to feed in fresh water.  They do not take the flies in order to survive, and indeed in many cases can not digest them properly anyway.  Here it is basically a case of finding a fly which will annoy them enough to grab it, or for some other reason, reflex, feeding memory etc etc. There is no way to know why these fish take a fly at all. Logical considerations, as in the case of normal freshwater fish, do not apply here. Just a few thoughts on the matter. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

flyfish writes: Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish

If you plan on staying at Lakewood, you’ll have to make reservations with Sue. Info is on the clave web site.  There are ways to walk in, however, and I’m sure you are aware of them.  <g   Hope to see you there, as well as Mudfish…… Dave

Response:

flyfish writes: Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish If you plan on staying at Lakewood, you’ll have to make reservations with Sue. Info is on the clave web site.  There are ways to walk in, however, and I’m sure you are aware of them.  <g   Hope to see you there, as well as Mudfish……

Knowing Ed and Dave, they’ll probably sleep in the truck…if they haven’t gotten it stuck somewhere. Dave B: if you come in from Wilson’s, use the NEW road. There’s a bridge missing on the Old Middledam Road… /daytripper (whose Pathfinder nearly "found" Sturtevant Stream one night)

Response:

Having never been myself I’ll have to let Mud navigate. Lemme see, if we leave early the 10th we should be there for the camp breaking exercises. Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – flyfish writes: Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish If you plan on staying at Lakewood, you’ll have to make reservations with Sue. Info is on the clave web site.  There are ways to walk in, however, and I’m sure you are aware of them.  <g   Hope to see you there, as well as Mudfish…… Knowing Ed and Dave, they’ll probably sleep in the truck…if they haven’t gotten it stuck somewhere. Dave B: if you come in from Wilson’s, use the NEW road. There’s a bridge missing on the Old Middledam Road… /daytripper (whose Pathfinder nearly "found" Sturtevant Stream one night)

Response:

Is there one? Where might it be? Mudfish and I may attend after all being as it’s all of an hour and a bit drive from my place Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more http://members.xoom.com/lokiskinder JG13 A proud Red Baron 2 squadron

Response:

Passing this along to Muddie, we’ll probably do just an overnighter to whet our whistles etc. maybe even fish Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Go to Paul Goodwin’s site: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/maineclave2000.html Hope to see you and Mudfish there. Dave Dave LaCourse

Response:

flyfish writes: Is there one? Where might it be? Mudfish and I may attend after all being as it’s all of an hour and a bit drive from my place Flyfish

Go to Paul Goodwin’s site: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/maineclave2000.html Hope to see you and Mudfish there. Dave Dave LaCourse

Response:

The thread I started a month or so back to announce the web page went off topic and down hill fast. You can find the site at: http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/maineclave2000.html Day_tripper supplied most of the photos for the flies. The one pattern I need a good photo of is a strawman. If anyone has one please email it to me. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there one? Where might it be? Mudfish and I may attend after all being as it’s all of an hour and a bit drive from my place Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more http://members.xoom.com/lokiskinder JG13 A proud Red Baron 2 squadron

Response:

Question:

actually walt…i think marie changed pj…or was it vice versa?   also, wasn’t it soon after james macdonald roberts left your presence that you wrote that blazing binary rant and began tying wooly buggers on treble hooks??? jeff (in recovery at the "pamlico" wing of the Hebron Colony) …the power of the prince of pilsner has commanded the scene. pj,

pj, has been changed.  just a simple tasting of dahlwhinnie evolution and the logic of the wee one…sad, to see an icon in tears. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – waldo, the prince of pilsner

Response:

Any advice? Thanks, Jeff (aka – empty handed) Jeff, Go smaller with 20-26 midges if you’re fishing the dry.

        (altruistic dispensation of wisdom from the king of the kamloomps snipped) –Walt

        if i were you, old buddy, i would be forgetting about idyllic days on the stream, and start thinking about survival.  ’cause i can hear, off to the east, in a growing, ominous, rumble, the thunderous stride of (gulp!) ….pamlico jim hissownself!!!!!         say goodbye to marie, and shake hands with the devil. wayno, who knows whereof he speaketh

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any advice? Thanks, Jeff (aka – empty handed) Jeff, Go smaller with 20-26 midges if you’re fishing the dry.         (altruistic dispensation of wisdom from the king of the kamloomps snipped) –Walt         if i were you, old buddy, i would be forgetting about idyllic days on the stream, and start thinking about survival.  ’cause i can hear, off to the east, in a growing, ominous, rumble, the thunderous stride of (gulp!) ….pamlico jim hissownself!!!!!         say goodbye to marie, and shake hands with the devil. wayno, who knows whereof he speaketh

wayno…the power of the prince of pilsner has commanded the scene. pj, jm, and yours trully returned from a remarkable winter day astream… pj, has been changed.  just a simple tasting of dahlwhinnie evolution and the logic of the wee one…sad, to see an icon in tears. waldo, the prince of pilsner

Response:

It’s my first winter in the area and I’m having a really tough time getting anything to hit. Have fished the Davidson, South Mills, Jones Gap (Saluda River), multiple locations of the Green River, with every #12-18 fly that I have been able to tie or find. No luck, not even a strike… I’ve tried am and pm.  All of the same locations produced through the summer/late fall of this year. Any advice? Thanks, Jeff (aka – empty handed)

Response:

It’s my first winter in the area and I’m having a really tough time getting anything to hit. Have fished the Davidson, South Mills, Jones Gap (Saluda River), multiple locations of the Green River, with every #12-18 fly that I have been able to tie or find. No luck, not even a strike… I’ve tried am and pm.  All of the same locations produced through the summer/late fall of this year. Any advice? Thanks, Jeff (aka – empty handed)

Jeff, Go smaller with 20-26 midges if you’re fishing the dry. A rig that I use is to tie the midge about 18-30 inches behind a 16 or so para adams which helps me keep track of where the midge is. You’ll be surprised how many take the "indicator." However, you will have far more success nymphing in the winter months. This afternoon I actually caught two or three fish on the stimulator indicator which had a 18 bead head dropper. The bead head was deadly today with many fish caught and many fish missed, all-in-all, a fine day astream in the winter. –Walt — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com For Book & Print Auctions: http://www.amazon.com/seller/mariebooks Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/dhome.html?id=33… P.O. Box 5112, Banner Elk, NC 28604

Response:

Question:

Michael,    I think this group has determined that fly size is more important than color.  Of course presentation is important but that is not a characteristic of the fly. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you think??   We need a good, ON-TOPIC bloodbath on this group, and we haven’t had one in quite a while. Michael Roegner

Response:

Dave,    I would rather have a glass of beer.  We know that colors darken when wet, and that the fish is usually looking at a back lighted object.  We are not certain what light spectrum the fish sees.  The impression the fly makes when sitting on the water or trapped bubbles on a rising insect are probably more important than the exact shade of the insect.  The more you know about the insect the more likely you are to tie a good imitation.  The beer is handy for sipping while tying.  The real test of the fly will come when you present it to the fish. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave

Response:

I would use a photo, the colors of bugs disappear in minutes after death.   I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave "M

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

Dale –         You’re not nuts at all, although I suspect that the reason why they turn the color of the rocks doesn’t really derive from the "rocks they eat".  

I was wondering if anyone would else would comment on this. This conjured up the image of some robotic like insects chewing up rocks.           That having been said – I’m going to drop a pretty major bombshell here in the hopes of sparking some discussion.  I have found that precise pattern, precise coloration, etc., is generally pointless in most (if not all) flyfishing.   What I’ve generally found is that just about ANY fairly representative pattern will catch as many, and as large, fish as the most perfectly colored, precisely matched pattern.  

I’ve brought this topic up in the past and not much interest was generated. In fact one poster said he couldn’t think of anything more boring. (I guess talking about someone’s underwear etc. has more interest to this person) I pretty much agree with you. Presentation is where it’s at. Fly size however, is VERY important. Pattern type is next i.e.. up wing, down wing, emerger, etc. Color is not very important. An exception to this is with heavily fished C&R waters, especially in tailwaters with their limited range of insect types. Some fish in these places can become hyperselective to pattern and color. This is just one of the peculiarities these fish exhibit.         What does make a difference?   Presentation is a major issue, being careful not to spook the fish,  observation of their feeding patterns,  ability to spot fish, knowledge of where they’re likely to hold, and patience.   If you cover those items, you’ll usually find that you can catch fish just fine with a pattern that doesn’t do such a precise job of matching the naturals.

My advice to new anglers is to spend less time on changing flies and more time on making a good presentation. Stalk a fish to get closer, change position, make more or different mends, change tippet length or size, add or remove weight etc. etc. etc. Correct presentation is a very broad and complex topic. It’s the most difficult of the skills in flyfishing.         I have a theory about all this – the myth that you have to match the naturals so precisely was created primarily to catch FISHERMEN rather than FISH.  And it has worked well, primarily because its always easier to tell yourself that "If I only had color X, or pattern Y, I’d be catching fish"  than it is to recognize that your own skills are what need improvement.

I also think that searching for the "perfect" fly is futile. I’ve never run into the situation where there was a "right" fly although some other posters here swear they have been in this situation. I fish mainly a range of different styles of flies in a range of sizes rather than specific patterns. I probably use about 4 different styles 90% of the time. Willi

Response:

Some may think I’m nuts about this also, but I think some of the color of the bugs is determined by the color of rocks they eat.

Bugs eat rocks? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Good points Ernie and Harry, and some of the best looking dry fly’s on the water IMHO that I tie are Compara-dun’s out of "Compara-hatch" booklet by Caucci/Nasatsi. Easier to tie than the traditional ones for me, what is the consensus on compare vs. traditional here, besides the traditional might be better on slower water?

I like Compara dun style better for slower water.  I especially like them using CDC for the wing instead of deer. It’s my usual choice for mayfly feeding fish on flat water. They can also be changed to an emerger at streamside by flattening the wing along the back.  You can fish them dry, damp or wet. Versital fly. Willi

Response:

How many feathers do you use for the wing ? What kind of tailing, now that I’m ask a million questions.;-)   I like this pattern as well but it floats for only a short period, in my experence. I think the tailing is very important  with slow water bugs and CDC. I like Compara dun style better for slower water.  I especially like them using CDC for the wing instead of deer. It’s my usual choice for mayfly feeding fish on flat water. They can also be changed to an emerger at streamside by flattening the wing along the back.  You can fish them dry, damp or wet. Versital fly. Willi

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On those that I’ve examined, the thorax is sort of a cream with dun mixed in and the abdomen is an olive with rust and the wings definitely a medium to dark dun. Like I’ve always said, nothing in nature is monotone… it’s always a mixture of colors and that’s why the best dubbing is blended from different materials and colors.  You never get exact matches and day-to-day, you’ll find the naturals in differing shades, depending on the weather, natural lighting conditions, time of day they hatch and other variables. Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system. Others? Larry #:)#

______  You make an excellent point Larry and its the same one I’ve offered for many years.  The wise fly tier will always "test-dress" a bit of sample dubbing or a fly at the fly tying bench with the fly dressing of their choice.  There is no sense in having a Light Cahill turning into a Dark Cahill after it gets wet beyond the desired shade required.  Of course my favorite choice shows the shade changes perfectly because it duplicates how the fly will look on the water to a finicky trout, and lets face it, there are more and more finicky, experienced, trout then ever before. Again Larry, I agree with you.  If it isn’t perfect at the bench, it won’t be perfect astream. Mr.G.

Response:

Some may think I’m nuts about this also, but I think some of the color of the bugs is determined by the color of rocks they eat. For an example if the rocks are primaily granite their main color might take on a light pink effect as well as all the other colors. Big Dale

Response:

Dale –         You’re not nuts at all, although I suspect that the reason why they turn the color of the rocks doesn’t really derive from the "rocks they eat".   I would expect that it has more to do with protective coloration – an insect has a much better chance of surviving to reproduce if their predators can’t pick them out against the background colors.         That having been said – I’m going to drop a pretty major bombshell here in the hopes of sparking some discussion.  I have found that precise pattern, precise coloration, etc., is generally pointless in most (if not all) flyfishing.   What I’ve generally found is that just about ANY fairly representative pattern will catch as many, and as large, fish as the most perfectly colored, precisely matched pattern.  This is an area of special interest for me, and I frequently test it by switching patterns to a off-color or more general pattern while my buddies obsess on "matching the hatch".   There doesn’t seem to be any difference at all.             What does make a difference?   Presentation is a major issue, being careful not to spook the fish,  observation of their feeding patterns,  ability to spot fish, knowledge of where they’re likely to hold, and patience.   If you cover those items, you’ll usually find that you can catch fish just fine with a pattern that doesn’t do such a precise job of matching the naturals.         I have a theory about all this – the myth that you have to match the naturals so precisely was created primarily to catch FISHERMEN rather than FISH.  And it has worked well, primarily because its always easier to tell yourself that "If I only had color X, or pattern Y, I’d be catching fish"  than it is to recognize that your own skills are what need improvement.           What do you think??   We need a good, ON-TOPIC bloodbath on this group, and we haven’t had one in quite a while.                                         Michael Roegner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some may think I’m nuts about this also, but I think some of the color of the bugs is determined by the color of rocks they eat. For an example if the rocks are primaily granite their main color might take on a light pink effect as well as all the other colors. Big Dale

Response:

…         What do you think??  

I’ll pull out the weasel words on this one. While I tend to agree most of the time, I’ve been in situations, rarely, where a precise match would catch fish and no other fly would. I don’t remember the name of the stream but it’s just outside Jackson, WY. One of the toughest places I’ve ever fished. They were taking Callibaetis spinners and that was IT. Another data point is fishing Joe’s Hoppers on Slough Creek. So long as the fly was whole I had no trouble catching those big, dumb cutts but as soon as the turkey wing got just the least bit separated it was like turning off the lights. Put on a new hopper and the lights come back on. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On those that I’ve examined, the thorax is sort of a cream with dun mixed in and the abdomen is an olive with rust and the wings definitely a medium to dark dun. Like I’ve always said, nothing in nature is monotone… it’s always a mixture of colors and that’s why the best dubbing is blended from different materials and colors.  You never get exact matches and day-to-day, you’ll find the naturals in differing shades, depending on the weather, natural lighting conditions, time of day they hatch and other variables. Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system. Others? Larry #:)# ______  You make an excellent point Larry and its the same one I’ve offered for many years.  The wise fly tier will always "test-dress" a bit of sample dubbing or a fly at the fly tying bench with the fly dressing of their choice.  There is no sense in having a Light Cahill turning into a Dark Cahill after it gets wet beyond the desired shade required.  Of course my favorite choice shows the shade changes perfectly because it duplicates how the fly will look on the water to a finicky trout, and lets face it, there are more and more finicky, experienced, trout then ever before. Again Larry, I agree with you.  If it isn’t perfect at the bench, it won’t be perfect astream. Mr.G.

Response:

Good points Ernie and Harry, and some of the best looking dry fly’s on the water IMHO that I tie are Compara-dun’s out of "Compara-hatch" booklet by Caucci/Nasatsi. Easier to tie than the traditional ones for me, what is the consensus on compare vs. traditional here, besides the traditional might be better on slower water? Dave (Harry great photo’s on your site) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would use a photo, the colors of bugs disappear in minutes after death. I guess that from a lot of posts on here lately (thanks for all the great info) that I should include a glass of water at my bench when I tie. And a specimen of the fly itself. Dave "M Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

On those that I’ve examined, the thorax is sort of a cream with dun mixed in and the abdomen is an olive with rust and the wings definitely a medium to dark dun. Like I’ve always said, nothing in nature is monotone… it’s always a mixture of colors and that’s why the best dubbing is blended from different materials and colors.  You never get exact matches and day-to-day, you’ll find the naturals in differing shades, depending on the weather, natural lighting conditions, time of day they hatch and other variables. Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system. Others? Larry #:)#

Response:

______  Dear Pete: I suppose, one of the main flies in my arsenal is indeed various sizes of the "Blue Winged Olive Dun."  In fact, the majority of my finest flies that I tie are from the exact patterns as described in Ernie Scwiebert’s masterful work, "Matching The Hatch."  I personally think no fly fisherman would find themselves wanting on any stream in the United States if he tied up a half dozen of every fly in this magnificent book.  It is the base of my entire fly collection that I carry in my vest for the last 44 years! The Blue Winged Olive Duns along with the Iron Duns are perhaps the mainstay of a starting line on most streams, early in the season, especially the Iron Blue Dun on a river such as the Frying Pan, Gunnison, Blue River, Fire Hole, and the list goes on.  The Blue Winged Olive Dun has a total range across the United States from New York State, westward beyond Montana. I would suggest that these ‘Steak and Potato’ flies be best researched and tied out of the classic volume I have just mentioned.  I don’t think any fly fisherman could do better regarding descriptions and the basic history of some of the finest flies used on the American Continent. To wit:  Thank You Mr. Ernie Schwiebert. Mr. G.

Response:

Funny – we’re using the same name for different insects. In Europe the Blue Winged Olive is the anglers name for the Ephemerella ignita. From May to September – don’t leave home without it! Some nice pics at: http://www.fishing-in-wales.co.uk/wildlife/insects/upwing/bwolive.htm Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. … Bluewinged Olive is the fishermen’s name for the subimago of several Baetis spp. and Pseudocloeon spp. and the subimago Ephemerella flavilinea. What I call "the little grey ones". — Ken Fortenberry

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

[snip] Also keep in mind, the color of your imitation is influenced by reflected light, how wet the materials get and other factors as well, so what comes off the vise is likely to look drastically different when it’s on the water….. and especailly when it’s viewed from beneath the water by a creature with a highly different vision system.

Is he talking about Louie?

Response:

Excellent book and excellent fly.  Perfect for Colorado and New Mexico streams. Well said, Mr. G DP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  Dear Pete: I suppose, one of the main flies in my arsenal is indeed various sizes of the "Blue Winged Olive Dun."  In fact, the majority of my finest flies that I tie are from the exact patterns as described in Ernie Scwiebert’s masterful work, "Matching The Hatch."  I personally think no fly fisherman would find themselves wanting on any stream in the United States if he tied up a half dozen of every fly in this magnificent book.  It is the base of my entire fly collection that I carry in my vest for the last 44 years! The Blue Winged Olive Duns along with the Iron Duns are perhaps the mainstay of a starting line on most streams, early in the season, especially the Iron Blue Dun on a river such as the Frying Pan, Gunnison, Blue River, Fire Hole, and the list goes on.  The Blue Winged Olive Dun has a total range across the United States from New York State, westward beyond Montana. I would suggest that these ‘Steak and Potato’ flies be best researched and tied out of the classic volume I have just mentioned.  I don’t think any fly fisherman could do better regarding descriptions and the basic history of some of the finest flies used on the American Continent. To wit:  Thank You Mr. Ernie Schwiebert. Mr. G.

Response:

Aside from the "bad weather fly" part (must be a western thing – we get ‘em all the way up through Maine even on really nice days)

It might be an altitude/sun thing ie. sun more intense at higher altitude. Out West cloud cover really makes a difference. They will hatch out on sunny days but much better with cloud cover.  If you’re on the stream on a sunny day and you get a period of cloud cover, even for a relatively short period of time, the hatch intensifies and the fish will start feeding.  When the sun comes out the whole thing stops. I’ve been on the river during partly cloudy days and have see this cycle repeated all day long. Willi

Response:

Hi Guys, I was on the Lower Kings River the other day and I picked up what was defined to me as a BWO or blue wing olive.  This was the first actual specimen I had ever seen.  Upon close examination, the thorax showed up to be what I would describe as a light yellowish olive or even a very light lime green color.  The wings were the standard gray which I believe is also called dun color. I tied up a few in the same color (from memory) using the parachute style, and they came out pretty nice after a few tries.  In speaking with a bud regarding this fly, he stated that he thought the thorax is often other colors such as gray, bluish or yellow.  Not that I doubt him, but I have not found any materials which show me other variations of the blue wing olive. I don’t see blue wing yellows or blue wing grays either. <g Any thoughts on this topic? Pete

Response:

BWO’s do vary in the color of the body as well as the shade of gray of the wing. They also vary in size. On a given river, these differences are usually seasonal. As a whole they tend to get smaller as the season goes on. In the Spring, they will be of a size 16 or 18. By late Fall and Winter they will be down to a 20 or 22. Different watersheds also have different BWO’s. From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. The commonality is a gray wing and a body with some olive tones in it. The body often has other colors in it including: gray, yellow, rust, brown. cream etc. When tying them I generally blend an olive with several other colors. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style. BWO’s are a "bad weather" fly.  They hatch heaviest on overcast days. In the Rockies, the BWO’s are the most consistent Mayfly.  They will hatch every month, even in mid Winter during a warm spell. Just before runoff, there are some very strong hatches on cloudy days that provide some excellent surface fishing. The hatches also seem to get stronger again in the Fall. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Guys, I was on the Lower Kings River the other day and I picked up what was defined to me as a BWO or blue wing olive.  This was the first actual specimen I had ever seen.  Upon close examination, the thorax showed up to be what I would describe as a light yellowish olive or even a very light lime green color.  The wings were the standard gray which I believe is also called dun color. I tied up a few in the same color (from memory) using the parachute style, and they came out pretty nice after a few tries.  In speaking with a bud regarding this fly, he stated that he thought the thorax is often other colors such as gray, bluish or yellow.  Not that I doubt him, but I have not found any materials which show me other variations of the blue wing olive. I don’t see blue wing yellows or blue wing grays either. <g Any thoughts on this topic? Pete

Response:

And I always thought it meant "Budwiser With Onionrings" I guess I’ll have more room in my vest next time out for flies Dave ( the book is on my wish list, thanks George) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ______  Dear Pete: I suppose, one of the main flies in my arsenal is indeed various sizes of the "Blue Winged Olive Dun."  In fact, the majority of my finest flies that I tie are from the exact patterns as described in Ernie Scwiebert’s masterful work, "Matching The Hatch."  I personally think no fly fisherman would find themselves wanting on any stream in the United States if he tied up a half dozen of every fly in this magnificent book.  It is the base of my entire fly collection that I carry in my vest for the last 44 years! The Blue Winged Olive Duns along with the Iron Duns are perhaps the mainstay of a starting line on most streams, early in the season, especially the Iron Blue Dun on a river such as the Frying Pan, Gunnison, Blue River, Fire Hole, and the list goes on.  The Blue Winged Olive Dun has a total range across the United States from New York State, westward beyond Montana. I would suggest that these ‘Steak and Potato’ flies be best researched and tied out of the classic volume I have just mentioned.  I don’t think any fly fisherman could do better regarding descriptions and the basic history of some of the finest flies used on the American Continent. To wit:  Thank You Mr. Ernie Schwiebert. Mr. G.

Response:

I was told by an entomologist/flyfisherman that there were twenty different species called BWO that he was aware of. He felt that there probably was really close to a hundred. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. … Bluewinged Olive is the fishermen’s name for the subimago of several Baetis spp. and Pseudocloeon spp. and the subimago Ephemerella flavilinea. What I call "the little grey ones". — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BWO’s do vary in the color of the body as well as the shade of gray of the wing. They also vary in size. On a given river, these differences are usually seasonal. As a whole they tend to get smaller as the season goes on. In the Spring, they will be of a size 16 or 18. By late Fall and Winter they will be down to a 20 or 22. Different watersheds also have different BWO’s. From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. The commonality is a gray wing and a body with some olive tones in it. The body often has other colors in it including: gray, yellow, rust, brown. cream etc. When tying them I generally blend an olive with several other colors. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style. BWO’s are a "bad weather" fly.  They hatch heaviest on overcast days. In the Rockies, the BWO’s are the most consistent Mayfly.  They will hatch every month, even in mid Winter during a warm spell. Just before runoff, there are some very strong hatches on cloudy days that provide some excellent surface fishing. The hatches also seem to get stronger again in the Fall. Most of the time, I prefer a parachute or paradun style.

Aside from the "bad weather fly" part (must be a western thing – we get ‘em all the way up through Maine even on really nice days) you provided some solid information on this pattern, William. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count all the body color variations I’ve seen used on BWOs – though the wings, hackles, and tails are nearly always a medium blue dun (and I wouldn’t tie ‘em with anything else). Anyone making the Y2K Maine Conclave should have a bunch of these at the ready, size 16-20 (particularly 18-20)… /daytripper

Response:

… From what I understand, BWO is a fisherman’s term that describes a number of different species of mayflies. …

Bluewinged Olive is the fishermen’s name for the subimago of several Baetis spp. and Pseudocloeon spp. and the subimago Ephemerella flavilinea. What I call "the little grey ones". — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick. Please note the following: -my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are ignored by     the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, especially     those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly spinners     etc. etc. – IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky fish,     and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to time.     Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are forced to     rollcast your dries ? – a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use seems     to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details of small flies,     and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, that will     prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water Thanks -Vittorio

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick.

I hear Orvis has a GREAT floatant, you should try that. [Ducking],      - Ken — "Time is but the stream I go a-fishin in. I drink at it, but while I drink I see the sandy bottom and detect how shallow it is. It’s thin current slides away, but eternity remains."   – H.D. Thoreau

Response:

Other than Scotch Guard, the way you dress you pattern helps, meaning your hackle density, etc.  Variants of patterns such as a parachute or irresistable instead of a standard adams; CDC & Elk Hair vs a regular Elk hair caddis, etc..  Dress your flies to suit the water you will be fishing. A good dessicant can help, which is what I use when I can’t false cast. There is a brand of dessicant in a green translucent bottle called "Dry Shake" that dries off a fly quickly.  If you use that, and then hit it with your flotant of choice, its as good as starting with a fresh fly. I am going to mention it anyhow Vittorio, GG’s flotant really is good stuff. I used to use paste before switching.  It is worth the small investment of giving it a try.   Liquid floatants are better at getting into the details, which is the main reason I tried liquids, the liquids I tried didn’t work well enough until I used GG’s brand of flotant, no kidding. Good luck, let us know how your Scotch Guard soaking works.  I have found just spraying SG to be relatively useless. — Matt Blickensderfer * Piscaro itaque dicet mendacium *

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick. Please note the following: -my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are ignored by    the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, especially    those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly spinners    etc. etc. – IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky fish,    and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to time.    Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are forced to    rollcast your dries ? – a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use seems    to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details of small flies,    and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, that will    prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water Thanks -Vittorio

Response:

Michael, I have tried the soaking in ScotchGuard trick. I found very little improvement on floatability. I soaked several flies in a container of Scotchguard for about a half hour then let them dry on a paper towel. I then took them and some flies I had not treated with Scotchguard fishing.  The flies soaked in Scotchguard floated only slightly longer than non-treated flies. To me it did not seem to be worth the extra effort and mess of soaking the flies in Scotchguard for what little extra floatability I got.The fliesI fished with floatant(Gink) floated just fine. I was experimenting with a parachute Adams. bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -0] : : I have seen people claim that soaking in ScotchGuard works, although I : haven’t tried it. They said to spray some in a 35mm film cannister and : shake the flies in there, as I recall. : — : Charlie… I have tried that and come to the conclusion that Scotchgaurd  has no noticable effecton the flotation or soakability of my dry flies. I currently use old GG’s product at streamside and find that it works as advertised. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971  a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491

Response:

vittorio asked for advise on fly floatants. Anyone who tries Scotchguard might be tempted to try Rain-X. Please don’t that crap stunk up the garage for about a week. Big Dale

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Other than Scotch Guard, the way you dress you pattern helps, meaning your hackle density, etc.  Variants of patterns such as a parachute or irresistable instead of a standard adams; CDC & Elk Hair vs a regular Elk hair caddis, etc..  Dress your flies to suit the water you will be fishing. A good dessicant can help, which is what I use when I can’t false cast. There is a brand of dessicant in a green translucent bottle called "Dry Shake" that dries off a fly quickly.  If you use that, and then hit it with your flotant of choice, its as good as starting with a fresh fly. I am going to mention it anyhow Vittorio, GG’s flotant really is good stuff. I used to use paste before switching.  It is worth the small investment of giving it a try.   Liquid floatants are better at getting into the details, which is the main reason I tried liquids, the liquids I tried didn’t work well enough until I used GG’s brand of flotant, no kidding. Good luck, let us know how your Scotch Guard soaking works.  I have found just spraying SG to be relatively useless. — Matt Blickensderfer * Piscaro itaque dicet mendacium * I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick. Please note the following: -my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are ignored by    the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, especially    those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly spinners    etc. etc. – IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky fish,    and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to time.    Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are forced to    rollcast your dries ? – a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use seems    to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details of small flies,    and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, that will    prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water Thanks -Vittorio

3M marketed a floatant years ago (20 yrs, maybe) and from what I heard it was scotchguard – I think the trick is to spray flies 24 hrs b4 there use and then apply a floatant, Daves bug float or whatever. The post b4 mine from Mr Matt Blickensderfer about dressing flies is probably most important.  http://www.newsfeeds.com/       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

tried gink? — Nicholas J. Slodki http://trampled.net/Nikolai0/

:I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. :I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do :too much. :I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if :there are other products that could to the trick. : lease note the following: : :-my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are :ignored by :    the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, :especially :    those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly :spinners :    etc. etc. :- IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky :fish, :    and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to :time. :    Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are :forced to :    rollcast your dries ? :- a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use :seems :    to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details f small flies, :    and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, :that will :    prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water : :Thanks : :-Vittorio : : :

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies.

        in my twentysomething years of fishing for trout, i have found nothing that is as long lasting as gink. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks -Vittorio

Response:

(Frogspritz) writes: Someone gave me the bottle to try.  Haven’t tried it yet, however, so who knows? Unfortunately, I don’t know where it could be for sale.

The stuff works, it really works if you follow the instructions. And it is becoming available in many fly shops. Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

0]

: I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. : I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do : too much. : I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if : there are other products that could to the trick. : : I have seen people claim that soaking in ScotchGuard works, although I : haven’t tried it. They said to spray some in a 35mm film cannister and : shake the flies in there, as I recall. : — : Charlie… I have tried that and come to the conclusion that Scotchgaurd  has no noticable effecton the flotation or soakability of my dry flies. I currently use old GG’s product at streamside and find that it works as advertised. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies.         in my twentysomething years of fishing for trout, i have found nothing that is as long lasting as gink.

Speaking of Gink, you’re suposed to put it on a dry fly (I mean on a fly that’s not wet). No doudt that’s best, but I sometimes slather it on a soaked fly and it still seems to work pretty well. I’ll dry the fly out as well as I can with a few false casts, but the fly is still pretty damp. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

<<I hear Orvis has a GREAT floatant, you should try that. And, Orvis sells a neat tub of dessicant (drying crystals).  Simply put you fly in the tub, close the lid, and shake a couple of times. Works wonderfully.  Then you wouldn’t need any of that sissy floatant stuff. Dave pushing Ken aside and also ducking.

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies.

I have before me a little bottle of stuff called "Water Shed", which is called "permanent waterproofing liquid".  Instructions call for a drop to be added to the fly at least one day before the fly touches the water for the first time. "It will not effect color, softness and is odorless after 24 hour cure period" says the label. Someone gave me the bottle to try.  Haven’t tried it yet, however, so who knows? Unfortunately, I don’t know where it could be for sale. Mark Faulkner

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick.

"Watershed" permanent waterproofing liquid is recommended by and available from Feather-Craft Fly Fishing of St.Louis. http://www.flyfishamerica.com/Ads/National/FeatherCraft98JF.html I have no connection with Feather_Craft other than satisfied customer. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

The power company last spring stated that for new lines to be strung an Impact report had to be filed  because the home was within 300′ of the river.No trees or brush could be removed till he had permission from the BLM and CFG.

snip Harry – I appreciate your friend’s difficulties. I will not defend, and in fact will oppose, unreasonable restrictions on property rights. But, on the other hand, protection of our resources will require some restrictions – where the rabbit goes in the hat is what is "reasonable".   I can assure you that this conference does not have as its pupose the extinguishment of our property rights. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Sheesh Harry: I’m holding the registration brochure/abstract listing in my hand and I’m sorry, but I fail to see anything about government confiscation of property or abridgement of 5th Amendment Rights.  There will however, be sessions on stream bank fencing, the benefits of streambank riparian buffers on aquatic habitats and lo and behold… also sessions on landowner assistance, and the purchase of easements for riparian habitat enhancement work. That’s purchase, you know… a wiling buyer and a willing seller.  From what I can glean from your description, your friend on the Klamath is yet another example where the "One Size Fits All" proclivity of government has exhibited from time to time in being inflexible and profoundly unfair to citizens and property owners. He has been wronged.. This type of abuse deserves the same vigorous exposure and correction as the unmasking and pursuit of those who would use the guise of whining about property rights violations to hedge and fudge existing environmental standards.  For as long as I can recall, this entire discussion has been overly long on the proclamation of "rights" and far too brief on the discussion of "responsibilities". Enough of that. This conference is not about how to mount a night raid to seize Uncle John’s south woods along the North Fork of Hometown Run and add them to the public trust.  Its about why trees with good root systems tend to hold streambanks in place and stuff like that. The luncheon and presentations are great, but conspiracies are in short supply, I’m afraid.  

Response:

RLPPT   You are correct, I was ahead of myself.    The one size fits all dogma of the Fed is derived in no small part from  those groups and experts that know "what’s best for the Resource".  I’m sorry if I implied that the Keystone Conference in of it’s self is responsible for this type of thought process. That was not my intension. What I am saying is that over time, the Ecological and Philosophical solution to the premise that the Riparian habitat is being destroyed is; prohibit entrence.There is no reference to conspiracy or rights or responsibilities in that statement, nor were there in my other note. HM electrons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sheesh Harry: I’m holding the registration brochure/abstract listing in my hand and I’m sorry, but I fail to see anything about government confiscation of property or abridgement of 5th Amendment Rights.  There will however, be sessions on stream bank fencing, the benefits of streambank riparian buffers on aquatic habitats and lo and behold… also sessions on landowner assistance, and the purchase of easements for riparian habitat enhancement work. That’s purchase, you know… a wiling buyer and a willing seller. From what I can glean from your description, your friend on the Klamath is yet another example where the "One Size Fits All" proclivity of government has exhibited from time to time in being inflexible and profoundly unfair to citizens and property owners. He has been wronged.. This type of abuse deserves the same vigorous exposure and correction as the unmasking and pursuit of those who would use the guise of whining about property rights violations to hedge and fudge existing environmental standards.  For as long as I can recall, this entire discussion has been overly long on the proclamation of "rights" and far too brief on the discussion of "responsibilities". Enough of that. This conference is not about how to mount a night raid to seize Uncle John’s south woods along the North Fork of Hometown Run and add them to the public trust.  Its about why trees with good root systems tend to hold streambanks in place and stuff like that. The luncheon and presentations are great, but conspiracies are in short supply, I’m afraid.  

Response:

the electons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it. Thanks Bob, you saved me some typing.  I’ll see you there.  Not sure where Harry was coming from there.   Mark Faulkner

  I have a friend who lives on the Upper Klamath,outside of Happy camp. He is a Nam vet and has ‘retired’ to a home he inheritated from his father in 88.His place sits on about 30 acres of ground with about an 1/8 of mile of river front. The heavy winter of last year did a number on his power lines and he spent time and money to replace what he could till last spring so the major line could be replaced. The power company last spring stated that for new lines to be strung an Impact report had to be filed  because the home was within 300′ of the river.No trees or brush could be removed till he had permission from the BLM and CFG.The report cost $1750.  They have succeeded in impeding any improvements ,maintenance to his property till he got "permission". The road to his place needed attention of a D9 cat , he could not do it.  They have for all intents and purposes, confiscated his property. He could sell but then he, by law, has to state that the Fed will not allow improvements or the like… that means no buyers. After much legal hassle and expense the power was replaced under a "one time" grandfather clause. His is still fighting to get what’s left back.   So when a group, any group gets together to "decide what’s best for the resource" my ears perk up. If, like on the "Post Spill" Upper Sac here in Ca. a group or town (Dunsmire) can demand the fishing regs reflect it’s desire to allow more bait fishing, then the jump in the opposite direction,i.e. No fishing at all is not as Quantum as you may think.It depends on who is yelling the loudest  The environmental extension to the question of what’s best for the resource is; no human interaction. After all, if C&R is deemed harmful to the resource by a group that wields the power or the public backing, we as a group are not left with much to do except fish from our SUV’s with  3 D helmets on.  I agree with those that are trying to improve what can be and have and do jump in myself, but given the radical days of Green Political correctness we are in, the outlawing of fishing and or boating is not nearly as far fetched as it was 10 years ago. What will the next 10 hold ?   harry Other than that, I off to tye at the ISE show… Have a good one

Response:

the electons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it. Thanks Bob, you saved me some typing.  I’ll see you there.  Not sure where Harry was coming from there.   Mark Faulkner

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it.

Thanks Bob, you saved me some typing.  I’ll see you there.  Not sure where Harry was coming from there.   Mark Faulkner

Response:

projected the electons to read: THIRD ANNUAL KEYSTONE COLDWATER CONFERENCE:                           MULTIPLE BENEFITS OF STREAMSIDE BUFFERS The time is coming when this "Quite" sport in which we participate will come to be looked upon as invasive, detrimental and  damaging to the riparian environment. Harry, get a grip, man.  One just doesn’t follow from the other.  Now put down your copy of "The Turner Diaries", kick back and enjoy the millenium. Anything being sponsored by Penn State University has to be good.

 Fiddle on Nero , Actually I just finished Tyer’s Benchside cover to cover, very nice book. In general  schools east of the Divide are just to Provincial… Hm (helmet in place )

Response:

The 2/20 conference at Penn State is jointly sponsored by Pennsylvania and National TU, the Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Pa Fish & Boat Commission, Pa Audubon, PA-DEP, PA-DNCR (PA’s Environmental Regulatory Agencies), and several private sector companies like Orvis, etc. This is the third annual conference and if it comes off like the first two, there will be over 300 folks there from agencies and the conservation community networking and talking and planning on what is best for the resource and our coldwater fisheries.  Registration is open until 2/6. Call one of the folks in the previous post.  Last year,I think we had attendees from 11 states. This is getting to be some event and I for one won’t miss it.

Response:

THIRD ANNUAL KEYSTONE COLDWATER CONFERENCE:                           MULTIPLE BENEFITS OF STREAMSIDE BUFFERS

The time is coming when this "Quite" sport in which we participate will come to be looked upon as invasive, detrimental and  damaging to the riparian environment.

Harry, get a grip, man.  One just doesn’t follow from the other.  Now put down your copy of "The Turner Diaries", kick back and enjoy the millenium. Anything being sponsored by Penn State University has to be good.

Response:

Seminars will include: River viewing from afar. Casting over the Riparian zone with bow and arrow. Landing trout remotely from viewing area. Who to contact in the Fed. to get permission to ask someone if you can touch the water.   A feasibility study of "virtual" fly fishing in 3D  from your now outlawed SUV. Pay for view The time is coming when this "Quite" sport in which we participate will come to be looked upon as invasive, detrimental and  damaging to the riparian environment. You may say, it’s a matter of degree, FF’ers don’t damage the "Zone" as much as say  Cattle .You would be correct, the problem is: we do not define the Degree and wading is invasive, trails are damaging and sticking little fish for joy is or will not  be PC. It’s only a matter of time, sorry to say. HM (I don’t see Black Helicopters or Grays, but I do not inhale sand either.) projected the electons to read: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -THIRD ANNUAL KEYSTONE COLDWATER CONFERENCE:                           MULTIPLE BENEFITS OF STREAMSIDE BUFFERS      SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1999 To inform individuals from grassroots groups, including watershed organizations and trout unlimited chapters, about the value and function of natural and planted riparian vegetation along upland coldwater streams in enhancing both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. There will be sessions on:                 Fish and Water Quality                 Bird Abundance and Diversity                 Landscape Ecology                 Stream Bank Fencing                 Geographical Information Systems For up to date conference information: http://www.outreach.psu.edu/C&I/Coldwaterconservation For More Information About program content: Janie French (814) 768-9584 Jack Williams (814) 764-3368 About registration or access: Mark Bernhard, Penn State Conferences and Institutes 225 The Penn Stater Conference Hotel State College  PA  16802 Phone: (814)863-5121 Fax: (814) 863-5190

Response:

Question:

Happy New Year to all my fellow Fisher-people. This light spinning tackle inshore salt water fisherman is ready to learn how to fish with a fly rod. I am looking for a 9ft 8wt fly rod that will be my learning rod. My question then is… How good are Cabela’s saltwater Fly rod blanks? How Bout the SL or FT blanks? How would these compare to the GLoomis GL3 blanks? Or is there a better route to take, maybe a fly rod combo set-up for saltwater. What do I need to look for when picking out a fly reel? Is there one type/model/construction/drag that would be advantageous over another? Thanks, Jay

Jay I can’t talk about Cabela’s, I don’t use their stuff, but I have used a Loomis GL3 8/9 weight 9 foot megataper saltwater rod for the past two years.  Unlike other salties, it has a soft tip that makes it useful for salmon, steelhead, bass, pike etc. (my type of fishing.) The usual salty is a broomstick, designed to put a lot of leverage on a fish.  Generally, they are brute force canons capable of great distances but pathetic to cast with any finesse.  They don’t really begin to load until you’ve got 30-40 foot of line beyond the tiptop. The GL3 8/9 is an exception, capable of delicate short casts, yet can match distance with any of them. Good diameter butt section for strength.  Very light, which is very important at the end of a long day.  At 3.85 ounces, there are 6 and 7 weights that weigh more. I was recently fishing for steelhead with another fishermen who was using an Orvis Trident salty.  He fishes salt frequently, and he made the same comments to me, as we compared rods.  I found his rod difficult to cast well, probably would be very difficult for a beginner.  On the other hand, my GL3 8/9 feels like a nice trout 6 weight, very easy to cast. A good reel match for the GL3 8/9 is the Lamson 3.5.  Tough reel, good drag, balances out the GL3 8/9 beautifully, tons of room for backing. Peter

Response:

Happy New Year to all my fellow Fisher-people. This light spinning tackle inshore salt water fisherman is ready to learn how to fish with a fly rod. I am looking for a 9ft 8wt fly rod that will be my learning rod. My question then is… How good are Cabela’s saltwater Fly rod blanks? How Bout the SL or FT blanks? How would these compare to the GLoomis GL3 blanks? Or is there a better route to take, maybe a fly rod combo set-up for saltwater. What do I need to look for when picking out a fly reel? Is there one type/model/construction/drag that would be advantageous over another? Thanks, Jay

I know I’ll eat some flames for this but I would recommend getting one of the Orvis Clearwater combos.  I think the 8wt goes for about $180.00 and it is ready to fish.  I own one and it casts nice, and can double as a steelhead/salmon rod when you are in the mood. -John —        My Policy is to ALWAYS Blame the Computer

Response:

Anything Cabela’s sells is usually very good and they give you a 100% satisfaction guaranty.   Joel Axelrad

Response:

Happy New Year to all my fellow Fisher-people.  This light spinning tackle inshore salt water fisherman is ready to learn how to fish with a fly rod. I am looking for a 9ft 8wt fly rod that will be my learning rod. My question then is… How good are Cabela’s saltwater Fly rod blanks? How Bout the SL or FT blanks? How would these compare to the GLoomis GL3 blanks? Or is there a better route to take, maybe a fly rod combo set-up for saltwater. What do I need to look for when picking out a fly reel? Is there one type/model/construction/drag that would be advantageous over another? Thanks, Jay

Response:

Question:

: :Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it :is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   no, the accuracy is only good to 50ft or so under ideal conditions. — george jefferson

Response:

| Now, the question: | | Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it | is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   | Seems to me it would take a complete map of the bottom and more waypoints | than any  device could handle. | | Peggie Hall/Peal Products | Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 | (And should prob’ly stick to giving plumbing advice only!) | | Peggie, If your boating friends make such wide-sweeping assumptions that you do, then I can understand why they would run aground in the middle of a channel! Actually, many ocean-going boats have much more advanced guidance and navigation systems than most of the lake-trailers that you see on Lake Lanier. Auto-pilots and GPS combined are used by many fishing and scuba outfits to drop almost dead-on a target with minimal search. I’ve seen it done many times. Please read what I have written again. If I was looking for a target, why would I run WOT? However, if I was heading for a fishing spot on, say, Lake Hiwassee, and I knew the GPS co-ordinates, then why do you fail to see the value in inland lake GPS? Actually, there are GPS maps of many lakes available, with features pre-programmed. Plug and play, as it were. I doubt that any electronics, whether it be GPS or marine radios, can replace the instrument between your ears. Now, you want to talk useless. With a toilet at every ramp, who needs a marine toilet?

Response:

I doubt that any electronics, whether it be GPS or marine radios, can replace the instrument between your ears.

Absolutely true. You mentioned going fast, night running, unfamiliarity with powerboats, unfamiliarity with the lake (which has a nasty habit of changing week to week)…and spoke of using a GPS to do your navigating. But from your above comments, it’s obvious I misread your intent to use it to navigate going fast at night…Sorry!  However,  when you’ve heard as many stories as I have about some of the ideas new boat owners have, it’s understandable.  The best one recently was a dealer who told me about a first time buyer who wanted GPS and an autopilot on his new houseboat so it could take him back to his slip at night if he was too drunk to do it himself! I see bass boats hauling all over the lake at night at WOT (more often than not with no lights showing BTW)… occasionally hear of  tragic consequences….I just don’t want you to be  one of  ’em. Now, you want to talk useless. With a toilet at every ramp, who needs a marine toilet?

Anyone who has a boat with enough privacy for one who doesn’t  want to go find a toilet on land every time his wife has to pee! <gg Bring that shiny new toy up my way one of these days and I’ll buy you a beer…it’s the least I can do after insulting your intelligence! Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987

Response:

WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear.

Welcome to boating!  I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank.

Welcome to the reality of owning (and dumping money into) a boat . . .

Response:

For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier!

Gee, my GPS displays current course and speed. (In knots, statute miles per hour, or km per hour) If you go over the the sci… groups, you can debate whether the speed is calculated based on delta-t / delta-d or doppler shift. Lee Lindquist     lindquist ‘at’ ibm.net "Only 2 more years until people stop telling me when the millenium REALLY ends."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! Gee, my GPS displays current course and speed. (In knots, statute miles per hour, or km per hour) If you go over the the sci… groups, you can debate whether the speed is calculated based on delta-t / delta-d or doppler shift.

So I’ve heard from a dozen people via e-mail!  Since there’s no real practical use for ‘em on an inland lake, the only ones I’ve seen were on friends’ sailboats on the Chesapeake Bay….and those only showed course and position. The owners  all have separate knotmeters. How ’bout expanding  my learning curve a bit more…first, the lake conditions: Lanier is a river in the foothills of the Smokies that was dammed and spread out over hills & valleys…around 260′ deep at the dam, but as little as 15′ deep up "creeks" out of the main channel. The water level fluctuates as much as 13′…what’s  6′ below the surface-and no problem–at full pool can "rise" to 2′ below it in a  matter of a week or two,  much of  it in the middle of  channels.  And the shoreline "moves" as a result.  In fact, the shoreline is "expanding" and islands  are shrinking–some have disappeared –due primarily to wake…Lanier is the most-used Corps of Engineers lake in the country. While the areas that are always shallow, many of which are passable when the lake is at full pool, but not when it’s down as little as 2′,  are marked,  it’s impossible to mark the ones that appear and disappear with fluctuating water levels as fast as often happens …and markers get knocked down. "Local knowledge" of the reefs and shoal waters is  essential…prop and outdrive repair accounts for a major percentage of the marine repair  business around the lake…even seasoned boaters who’ve been on the lake for more than a decade fall victim, proceeding VERY cautiously even in the daytime, and especially at night. Just last fall a friend who’s had a houseboat on the lake for more than 20 years lost an outdrive on an unmarked shoal in the main  channel of the lake, more than 100 yds from the shore…running at about  1200 rpms, but not paying enough attention to his course. Now, the question: Is it really possible-as our friend with his first boat seems to think it is-for  any  GPS to "steer" a boat running WOT around all these hazards?   Seems to me it would take a complete map of the bottom and more waypoints than any  device could handle. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 (And should prob’ly stick to giving plumbing advice only!)

Response:

| Congratulations!  You’re about to find out why B.O.A.T. stands for Break | Out Another Thousand! <gg | | However…. | | I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat | will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add… | | But first do the rest of us on Lanier–and yourself–a HUGE favor: take | a Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron boating safety course! | | For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for | Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation | system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in | latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all | sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! | | You DO need a VHF radio, however…so you can call for help when you run | out of gas. <GG | | A boating safety course costs nothing but the time to do it. You’ll | learn the rules of the road, correct VHF procedure, how to read a chart, | how to recognize when weather is building and get to shelter before the | storm hits (I’ve been on Lanier in sudden squalls packing 45 knot | winds–NOT where someone in a 17′ open boat wants to be!)…safety gear | and how to use it–what’s required…a whole BUNCH of information that | could save your life–or mine. <g | | Have fun and be safe!  When you get the radio (and learn how to use it), | call SOLITAIRE…I’d love to see your boat. | | Peggie Hall/Peal Products | Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 | | Peggie | Thanks Peggy, I am reading a boating safety manual right now, which is probably more than most boaters do as a minimum. It is not my first time on the water, just my first power boat. I’ve have four other boats under the deck. Thanks, too, for the info on the GPS. I was trying to head off the corrective comments about speedometers not being accurate. GPS is a lot more useful than just finding your way back to the dock, in my estimation. It can be a safety device in tough boating conditions such as inclement weather or just being in the dark. Shorelines can be tricky to read in the dark, and one might not want to run next to waterway markers if there is a boat anchored nearby. Last, but not least, GPS can be used to re-locate positions, whether it be underwater cover, building foundations (my wife and I are divers, as well), and submerged islands, particularly on the distant lakes where I plan to trailer my boat. Not too sure I need a VHF radio, though. I’ve got twelve gallons of gas and I am an awful cautious. I switch over a tank leaving enough to get back on in the empty. I prefer to have a HONKIN’ bilge pump with a redundant back-up to buy me enough time to get to safety or shore. I have been in a thirteen foot Ghenoe on a river when it was raining so hard and the boat was filling with water so fast that I couldn’t stop bailing long enough to set the gear out of the boat on the bank! I’ve also paddled the Ocoee river in my kayak a few of times and gotten chewed up by Double Trouble and Diamond Splitter, as well as Hell Hole and Double Suck, but I’ll say this…it wasn’t as thrilling as cruising the lake in MY BASS BOAT!!! See you on the water.

Response:

Congratulations!  You’re about to find out why B.O.A.T. stands for Break Out Another Thousand! <gg However…. I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add…

But first do the rest of us on Lanier–and yourself–a HUGE favor: take a Coast Guard Auxiliary or US Power Squadron boating safety course! For one thing, you’ll learn that GPS isn’t a speedometer…it stands for Global Positioning System…it’s a computerized satellite navigation system that tells you where you are and what course to steer in latitude/longitude terms. Since you can always see the shore on all sides, you don’t need one to find your way home on Lanier! You DO need a VHF radio, however…so you can call for help when you run out of gas. <GG A boating safety course costs nothing but the time to do it. You’ll learn the rules of the road, correct VHF procedure, how to read a chart, how to recognize when weather is building and get to shelter before the storm hits (I’ve been on Lanier in sudden squalls packing 45 knot winds–NOT where someone in a 17′ open boat wants to be!)…safety gear and how to use it–what’s required…a whole BUNCH of information that could save your life–or mine. <g Have fun and be safe!  When you get the radio (and learn how to use it), call SOLITAIRE…I’d love to see your boat. Peggie Hall/Peal Products Specializing in marine toilet systems since 1987 Peggie

Response:

I think its great that you got you’re first boat. I bought my first boat as well last week. Its an old boat a ‘72 Starcraft with a small motor (35 HP). We took it out Sunday and ran around a local lake. Sonce i was a kid I’ve wanted a boat. Someday, I’ll upgrade, but I’m just in heaven from this boat. I did not catch any fish my first time out, but I did not really try. Have fun and be safe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

Response:

This is what it is all ABOUT!!! Tear it up Tom & family…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

Response:

WARNING – This post will have little content. I picked up my first bass boat on Saturday and I am gleaming from ear to ear. I bought a 17ft Grumman with console steering with a 50HP Johnson with pwr trim/ tilt. Two casting decks, aerated livewell, and a Johnson foot-operated trolling motor. My wife and I went out both Saturday and Sunday on Lake Lanier (north of Atlanta) and just had a blast. I caught a small spotted bass (about 1-1/4#) and she made me bring him home and clean him, since it was the inaugural bass, in the first 15 minutes of fishing! I am new to powered boats, but have driven friend’s boats. This boat will fly! I am not sure how fast, though – no GPS, yet. I plan to add a Bimini top, fishfinder(s), bilge pump (not included!), and a tachometer, once the checkbook balances out. I even have to add tie-down cleats! I put in another 6 gallon tank. This boat sips fuel, though. My wife loves it and the dogs were great for their first trip out. Got to get that bimini top on, though, for everyone’s sake. There was hardly anybody on the lake, especially yesterday. Although, it was partly sunny, we saw only a dozen boats. Great time for us to try out our new baby. The name of our new boat? Well, I guess we’re getting silly as we age, but we call our new Ford truck the "Golden Boy" (after the "Seinfeld" episode), so our aluminum boat is called the "Silver Queen", after the corn we love to pick out of our teeth. See you on the water…

Response:

Question:

Grow up and get a life!  If you have a "head in the sand" approach to flyfishing that’s fine, but don’t try to foist it on the rest of us.  Most fly fishers enjoy a variety of approaches to catch, and often release, a variety of fish species.   To each his or her own.

Response:

A nicely weighted nymph, quietly cast upstream, on a dead drift, is truly the only sporting way to pursue the honorable Mr. Trout.                                                        __ john quill taylor                                     / / writer at large                                      / /   Hewlett-Packard, Storage Systems Division    __     /_/ / Boise, Idaho U.S.A.                         /_/  __ _ Telephone: (208) 396-2328 (MST = GMT – 7)     /  \  / Snail Mail: Hewlett-Packard                    / \             11413 Chinden Blvd                 \             Boise, Idaho 83714                   _/             Mailstop 852                            _/                                                   _/       "When in doubt, do as doubters do." – jqt –                   haiti, rwanda, cuba, bosnia, … we have a list,              where is our schindler?

Response: