Question:

[deleted] volkswagon beetles [deleted] chevrolet hare’s ears

orvis jeep beadheads… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

this thread is for anything unrelated to flyfishing. feel free to contribute, but PLEASE,  no flyfishing (than it would be an off-topic, off-topic thread and would kinda be like looking in the mirrors at a barbershop…) ie… volkswagon beetles

        imho, far superior to chevrolet hare’s ears for really getting a sinking line down where the big uns are.  oh, i realize casting can become a little tiresome; but, hey, that’s fly fishing for ya…         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

this thread is for anything unrelated to flyfishing. feel free to contribute, but PLEASE,  no flyfishing (than it would be an off-topic, off-topic thread and would kinda be like looking in the mirrors at a barbershop…) ie… kohlberg tongue swallowing dueling banjoes tv ratings cursing me, yourself, or others lovefests volkswagon beetles internet bad guys internet good guys anything goes…..

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Question:

Hey: I’m interested in doing some flyfishing in the Florida Keys next April. Can anybody give me recommendations on guides in that area for tapon and bonefish?  This is my first trip.

Response:

Hey: I’m interested in doing some flyfishing in the Florida Keys next April. Can anybody give me recommendations on guides in that area for tapon and bonefish?  This is my first trip.

Hi Brian, This is a good time to book a guide for next spring. April/May/June is prime time. All the top guides have tackle for the day(s) you are with them. If you want to wade or rent a boat on your own then you need some tackle. I would call West and if he doesn’t have any days left he will know some other high quality guides in the Keys. He is considered in the top of his field and is also lots of fun to fish with. You can see him in the Billy Pate Tarpon fishing videos. As you can tell he is one of my heros.  . Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

I was there May 20th of last year. I doubt there will be any runoff because the mountains aren’t high enough to get much snow.

Well, last year was a severe drought. This year was a banner snow year. From Santa Fe, you can still see snow well down the south face of Tschicoma (11,500), so I imagine that Redondo (11,200) and San Antonio (10,000) still have plenty of snow. The Jemez River and Rio San Antonio drain these mountains. I don’t have a recent report, but if you want the latest info for your trip, call (505) 98-TROUT. That’s the High Desert Angler in Santa Fe. They keep stream flow info on most norhtern NM streams including the Jemez Mtns. Bill Schudlich Santa Fe, NM

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I was there May 20th of last year. I doubt there will be any runoff because the mountains aren’t high enough to get much snow. I did well in the Jemez river. The drought was severe at that time and the river was low and very warm, causing trout to be stacked up in shaded riffles. The Jemez reminded me of the streams we have here in North Carolina- small and lots of brush. The main area I fished was near Jemez Springs, above Soda Dam( a natural formation). One of the branches of the Jemez, over near the caldera, looks really nice. Would also be a good area for a day hike. The Jemez Mountain Inn in Jemez Springs is a great place to stay. The aquaduct flows right through the courtyard. Have a great trip, this is one of my favorite areas in New Mexico. Evan

Runoff in the Jemez can be severe. The peaks are well over 8,000 feet, and can collect quite a bit of snow.  Evan saw little snow last year because of a mild winter and severe drought.  This year, runoff is likely to last into late May, even early June.  Great thing about the Jemez streams, though, there are enough of them, you can usually find a clear one.  Good guide to the area is "Fly Fishing in Northern New Mexico" from UNM Press. Have fun!

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Will be going to the Jemez Mountains in New Mexico May 20th. I would like any information on good spots that won’t be raging with runoff. Thanks, Michael Smith

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I was there May 20th of last year. I doubt there will be any runoff because the mountains aren’t high enough to get much snow. I did well in the Jemez river. The drought was severe at that time and the river was low and very warm, causing trout to be stacked up in shaded riffles. The Jemez reminded me of the streams we have here in North Carolina- small and lots of brush. The main area I fished was near Jemez Springs, above Soda Dam( a natural formation). One of the branches of the Jemez, over near the caldera, looks really nice. Would also be a good area for a day hike. The Jemez Mountain Inn in Jemez Springs is a great place to stay. The aquaduct flows right through the courtyard. Have a great trip, this is one of my favorite areas in New Mexico. Evan

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Question:

Not exactly that crude of an explaination Burt.  What Jim and do is start at the tail of a shoot and throw rocks in.  Big rocks so the ‘clunk’ on the bottom.  This drives the steelhead, like cattle to the top or tongue of the shoot or run where we then start nymphing for them again.  It’s a very workable and successful way to gather your fish that are strung out. George

George, Maybe better, you could just drag a big net across the pool and on upstream and keep the fish at your feet…..that way you wouldn’t have to stop fishing every once in awhile and go throw some more rocks.  Damn, all these years I have spent time moving down a pool to meet the fish…maybe I’ll bring my deck chair next time and TimW also; sounds like his type of fishing. Fred Rickson

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I am going to change the treat a little. Nymphing with a floating line is almost something I can understand and do. But I get into trouble when nymphing (or streamerfishing) with a sink tip line (except the stripping retrieve in lakes, OK). How do you fish you sink tip line and how do you detect strike. Any input would be welcome. Where are the salmon/steelhead ffer and speyfisher, any comments there?? TIA     Thomas

Hi Thomas, I agree with most of the folks who say it is much tougher to nymph with a sinking or sink-tip line than a floating line.   The reason it is so tough is that if you get a dead drift with a sinking or sink-tip line you won’t feel anything and the trout has to really move the fly a lot for the sinking part of the line to move enough for you to see it at the surface.  If you keep a tight line so you can feel the strike, you don’t get a dead drift and don’t get nearly as many strikes.  In fast water, the current is more likely to force the fly into the corner of the fish’s mouth and hook him long enough to move the line.  In slower water he is long gone before you’d get any indication of a take. One way of nymphing with a sinking or sink-tip line is to cast up and slightly across stream, allow the fly and line to sink  to the bottom, and then raise the rod just enough to straighten out the line and lead it downstream just *slightly faster* than the current.  Properly done this doesn’t give you a drag free drift, but it comes close and still allows you to feel the strike.  Some of the best areas to do this are in fast water as mentioned above, and also where a riffle drops into a plunge pool.  This is known as just barely "keeping in touch" with your fly.  You can also use this tactic in close using a floating line and a long leader.                         Hope this helps,                                 Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This reminds me of something:  I saw a ff’ing tv show back in ‘93 or so that featured Jim Teeny as guest and guide for the hour.  He took the Jim Teeny and his wife have a very good reputation in the fly fishing industry. I have not met them, but have heard good things about them. Some anglers might not like to fish their techneques. Yeah, speaking of his techniques, I was watching a vid of him fishing for stellhead, don’t remember where – North Umpqua maybe.  He could get the fish to take his fly, so he says here is a tactic I use to get the fish moving. He picks up a big rock and throws it right in the middle of the pod of fish. He did catch one a little later.  I have always felt a little uncomfortable with that. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Not exactly that crude of an explaination Burt.  What Jim and do is start at the tail of a shoot and throw rocks in.  Big rocks so the ‘clunk’ on the bottom.  This drives the steelhead, like cattle to the top or tongue of the shoot or run where we then start nymphing for them again.  It’s a very workable and successful way to gather your fish that are strung out. George

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I’ve seen some derogatory things posted here about Jim Teeny that are not at all characteristic of the man. I met Jim Teeny at a steelhead seminar weekend put on by Stewart’s Custom Tackle in Wood Village, OR (just east of Portland) in the mid 70’s.  He was very helpful to a new FF devotee (me) getting started steelhead fishing.  Full of info and willing to share it – uncommon in that area at the time.   The first steelhead that I had on long enough to see  jump, was on the Salmon River outside of Welches, OR which is the Salmon River in question.  It is illegal to fish for Salmon there as they were trying to rebuild the run even back in the  70’s and the stream had a great steelhead run.  Nonetheless every once in a while someone would hook a salmon.  The law requires that they be released unharmed.  I’ve seen Jim on that river a number of times and he was always sight fishing for steelhead.  He is a very effective sight fisher and rarely hooks anything he doesn’t intend to.  This is a fairly small stream and is usually pretty clear. Very hard for me to believe he would be fishing for salmon illegally.   The Salmon is a tributary of the Sandy River and the salmon that make it up there are usually dark and don’t fight for crap.  I hooked a couple there while fishing for steelhead on the swing back then.  The first one I tried to pull in and he just dogged it on the bottom bending my 8 wt. like a noodle.  Learned my lesson quickly, pointed the rod at the fish and pulled to break him off.  Broke of the second one immediately. Not my idea of a good time, especially when there are fish in the river that will jump 4-5 ft. into the air and tear off 120 yards of backing like there was nothing to it.  Most of the fish I caught there I spotted first.  Not something Jim would purposely go after. Yes, this is one of the rivers on Jim’s SA video Catching More Steelhead.  In my experience Jim has always exhibited sportsmanship and ettiquette on the stream.  Even during the rock throwing incident on the video to stir lathargic fish up (known as stoning the pool in the UK I believe) he cautions to be sure to check with any anglers in the area before doing so, so it doesn’t ruin their fishing.  He also says it is a last resort when the fish is in a lie that is impossible to cover. In the mid 70’s, Jim lived outside of Gresham on the banks of the Sandy River and that is the river he calls home. Since I lived in Troutdale at the time, I fished it a lot too, though no where near as effectively.  The Sandy gets a good run of big steelhead in the winter. They are very hard to catch on a fly because the water is deep, fast, and very cold.  If you don’t put it in front of the steelhead’s face, he won’t take it.  Jim had a reputation for catching more fish there than anyone on the river.  On the number of occasions that I ran into him back then, he was always enthusiastic, helpful, and polite. I’m not sure he would remember me, but he helped me get started fly fishing for steelhead and I can’t be quiet when his reputation is sullied.  On the occassions I have seen him since, mostly at trade shows, he has always remained exuberant and cordial.                                         Grateful for his help,                                                       Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Structured Network Systems, Inc.    Perhaps as a friend you might want to consider giving your friend some    well intentioned advise.  When filming a fishing show try to not fish    for the spawners.  Too many times I’ve seen shows with Jim catching very    dark Salmon or Steelhead that look close to spawning.  As a    professional, catching spawners just doesn’t impress.    Robert Especially if the fishing method involves the skilled placement of a hook in a stationary, inactive, fishes mouth.  There is a difference between hooking a fish and having it strike. -tgades

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So to me, Jim Teeny is a classic fly fisherman and gentleman.  One that I admire and will always admire . . . no matter where I am. Mr. Gink Perhaps as a friend you might want to consider giving your friend some well intentioned advise.  When filming a fishing show try to not fish for the spawners.  Too many times I’ve seen shows with Jim catching very dark Salmon or Steelhead that look close to spawning.  As a professional, catching spawners just doesn’t impress. Robert

You are right.  I’ll do that next time I talk to Jim. Mr. Gink

Response:

So to me, Jim Teeny is a classic fly fisherman and gentleman.  One that I admire and will always admire . . . no matter where I am. Mr. Gink

Perhaps as a friend you might want to consider giving your friend some well intentioned advise.  When filming a fishing show try to not fish for the spawners.  Too many times I’ve seen shows with Jim catching very dark Salmon or Steelhead that look close to spawning.  As a professional, catching spawners just doesn’t impress. Robert

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hummmmm?  Well, Gentlemen.  If you

Question:

Does anyone out there know where there is any good flyfishing within a 100 miles of San Francisco.  I am going there in October and would like to try my luck.  I would appreciate a direct response thanks

Response:

Hi. Write or call Daiablo Valley Fly Fishemen, PO Box 4988, Walnut Creek, CA. 94596 Pres. Rod Black 415 736-1989 or 510 736-1989. If you need any info. about Montana I can also help. I spend Mayto Nov. at my fishing lodge in MT and Nov to May in San Francisco Bay Area. Have a nice day fishing.                                Bryant BBlewett

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Question:

I dunno what the numbers are, but it is my understanding that you are 3 times more likely to drown in Yellowstone then get eaten by a bear there. Have fun, TimW

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I dunno what the numbers are, but it is my understanding that you are 3 times more likely to drown in Yellowstone then get eaten by a bear there.

Also, if you are going to worry about the animals around here, *many* more people are gored by bison, often fatally, than get hurt by bears in Yellowstone.   Bear attacks in Yellowstone are extremely rare.  More people get kiled on the Gallatin Road driving to Yellowstone, you are more likely to die of a heart attack from working too hard carrying your float tube in a few miles, etc. It is worth taking the obvious precautions like raising your food cooler and cooking stuff up on a bear pole if you are camping on Shoshone Lake, but bear dangers are not high. Denbigh

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 I’m heading to Yellowstone in about 3 weeks. My partner wants to carry the  float tubes back to a couple of prime lakes, some with grayling. We’ll be  checking closely with the rangers, but I was wondering if any of you have  had any first hand experience there with bear sightings? It IS grizzly  country, after all…yikes! When my friend and his wife went there a few  years ago they WANTED to spot bears for photo ops, but never saw a one.

Although 2 to 5 bear attacks are experianced annually in Yellowstone, It is unlikely you will see a grizzly.  No firearms are allowed in the park. If you follow the recommended precautions with food, and a large enough group(making noise as your walking) you should be ok. you will more likely see alot of buffalo(respect them and keep your distance)

Response:

I’ve heard that more people are attacked by moose each year than by bears.  In Yellowstone you are far more likely to be killed by a bisson than a bear.  Buy some spray if you want a bit of added security and wear a bell to prevent any close encounters.  Otherwise go have fun fishing, its an amazing place to catch trout.

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I saw a TV show on Alaska fly-fishing once where a fellow was into a large salmon for quite some time.  A Ranger came by and informed the gent he would have to leave the area temporarily as there was a grizzly bear coming.  The guy looked up to see the aforementioned grizzly a mere 100 yds upstream and coming his way.  He looked at his line, the end of which held the salmon of a lifetime, then looked back at the bear.  His hesitation caused the Ranger to again advise him of the gravity of the situation.  The man again looked longingly at his line and again at the closing bear.  The Ranger, becoming a tad more frantic in his demeanor, told the man more loudly and more forcefully that he should leave!  Once more the man struggled with his desire for the fish.  Finally, the Ranger unsheathed his knife and cut the anglers line, thus ending his inner turmoil.  Now THAT’S a true fly-fisher!!!

Response:

No but I got chased and snapped at by a very angry swimmin cow moose while rafting near the headwaters to Earthquake Lake.  It was durin stonefly hatch and we think she had a calf in the willows. Only a paddle smack on the nose turned her away or she would have had the rubber raft.

Response:

I’m heading to Yellowstone in about 3 weeks. My partner wants to carry the float tubes back to a couple of prime lakes, some with grayling. We’ll be checking closely with the rangers, but I was wondering if any of you have had any first hand experience there with bear sightings? It IS grizzly country, after all…yikes! When my friend and his wife went there a few years ago they WANTED to spot bears for photo ops, but never saw a one.

Don, You should check out the thread: bear repellent for Yellowstone   (38 long and counting) Does anyone have the stats for the number of bear attacks in North America or USA each year?  Im sure its not many considering the number of people that are constantly in bear country!   IMHO bears are not the horrible monsters most seem to preceive them as!  I planted trees for 5 months in several remote parts of Bristish Columbia one year.  (I was young and figured it was my last chance before hitting the real world) (I was right).  Bear encounters were very common.  Neither I or anyone else carried bells or anything like that. (all the foreman carried spray).  You were usually about a 1/4 mile from anyone else.  We never had a single problem that year! Usually the bears were more afraid of you than you of them, and took off.  At that time the company I worked for had not had a single attack in its 14 year history. I (and 3 others I was with) ran into a small griz in YNP last week. It really didnt seem to care that we were there and had obviously seen people before.  Yet, we keep hearing these stories of people treed in YNP by bears!?!  Maybe the bears in YNP get really irratated by all the people??  I know I did!  :)   (20 min traffic delays becuase there is a bear in view from the road) I will try to find the bear attack stats and post them.  In the meantime if you have some please post em! Enuff Rambling for Now, Jason

Response:

I’m heading to Yellowstone in about 3 weeks. My partner wants to carry the float tubes back to a couple of prime lakes, some with grayling. We’ll be checking closely with the rangers, but I was wondering if any of you have had any first hand experience there with bear sightings? It IS grizzly country, after all…yikes! When my friend and his wife went there a few years ago they WANTED to spot bears for photo ops, but never saw a one.

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Question:

Does Anyone know any good flyfishing rivers/lakes in or near Halifax, NovaScotia? I will be traveling there for about two weeks and would like to know if there even is flyfishing there. Please E-mail me back or just posting it up might be good if I ever see it again.                        Thanx JT

Response:

Does Anyone know any good flyfishing rivers/lakes in or near Halifax, NovaScotia? I will be traveling there for about two weeks and would like to know if there even is flyfishing there. Please E-mail me back or just posting it up might be good if I ever see it again.                       Thanx JT

Response:

Submit one or browse what we’ve got!!! http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/reports/index.html

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Submit one or check out what we have!!! http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/classifieds/index.html

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Please stop by and add your link to our "Add-a-link" section!!! http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/index.html (Netscape 2.0) http://www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/aol.html (non Netscape Users)

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Stop by our site, add you links, browse our classifieds and Virginia Reports, leave us your comments!!! www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish for netscape users www.sklarew.com/vaflyfish/aol.html for other browsers

Response:

I’ve been out with a pulled back for over one month now!  I pulled it setting up my research project up in the Blue Ridge.  How’s the fly fishing going in VA?  What hatches have come off?  Any successful fishing reports? Thank, steve

Response:

Well, smallmouth fishing in the northern half of the state has been pretty lame due to an unusually wet spring and high water. But I had a great day in May catching native brookies in Shenandoah National Park! Scott W.

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Fishing has gone from poor to worse here at least in northern parts of Virginia since Memorial day. We’ve had record rains and flash flooding. Fishing was fairly good for a short spell about a week ago, but then the rains hit AGAIN!!! Keith in Waterford, VA

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Question:

Greetings, I’m moving to southeastern S. Dakota in a couple of weeks.  Any good suggestionsfor flyfishing opportunities to start with?  I’m not much into big water walleye spin fishing that I hear so much of in that part of the country.  Any trout? thanks,        curt Curt Anderson Dept. of Biological Sciences Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, AZ  86011

I think that there are some nice small streams in the Black Hills. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

Curt, you’re along way from any trout.  Best try to find a good farm pond or small lake for some bluegills and bass.

How about trying Northeastern Nebraska. The State of Nebraska  has a page on fishing and hunting in the state. http:/adm-server.ngpc.state.ne.us/ I took a peek about six months ago and noticed that they stock streams in the northeastern part of Nebraska. Maybe South Dakota does somthing similar in tributaries to the Missouri?

Response:

Greetings, I’m moving to southeastern S. Dakota in a couple of weeks.  Any good suggestionsfor flyfishing opportunities to start with?  I’m not much into big water walleye spin fishing that I hear so much of in that part of the country.  Any trout? thanks,         curt Curt Anderson Dept. of Biological Sciences Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, AZ  86011

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al, I still can’t seem to get to the new group from IBM’s ADVANTIS network so other folks may be having similar problems with their news servers. Hopefully they will all be ironed out soon. — Charlie Choc Charles E. Choc & Associates Computer Telephony Consulting Marietta Georgia, USA Hi Charlie, Sorry to hear you network is not carrying the tying newsgroup – at least I assume this is the problem. My last look at the group indicated about 75 messages on the current screen. Maybe a call or email to your network server would be in order. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

That’s all it’ll take.  The ROFFT group is definitely going. Bob Lundy IWFFC Mississauga, ON http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rlundy

Response:

Hi Sandy. Keep plugging away, the group is being accessed by UK readers. Damn good stuff too. I’ve currently got something like 175 news items stored. E.mail your provider and tell them of your problems.                                        Read you soon. Dave T. , I am having trouble accessing the fly tying group through America On Line. , It will show up for a while and then disappear. When I search for it-it’s , gone.  No one seems to be posting there. I keep loggin on, but no new messages appear. We need a few people to log on to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying, with something (anything) to say!

– dave tait

Response:

Hi Sandy. Keep plugging away, the group is being accessed by UK readers. Damn good stuff too. I’ve currently got something like 175 news items stored. E.mail your provider and tell them of your problems.

Just to clarify things… The newsgroup is indeed globally created and has been receiving quite a bit of traffic.  I was out of town for the weekend and when I returned there were 96 new messages. If you still can’t access the group the problem is with your provider.  Some service provides don’t "auto-create" new newsgroups and you’ll specifically have to ask them to add the group to their subscribed list.  In any case, there isn’t anything that anyone that is reading this newsgroup can do about the local problem. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

This newsgroup still doesn’t exist…for me.  Is it active?

:   : , I am having trouble accessing the fly tying group through America On Line. : , It will show up for a while and then disappear. When I search for it-it’s : , gone. :   :   No one seems to be posting there. I keep loggin on, but no new messages : appear. We need a few people to log on to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying, : with something (anything) to say! — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster —–BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—– Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDtvLEAAAEEAKAC21G2Be0K0DMgjLpxrwLmsYfCz8rWcfgyABjr3Ryfk1dO nV7fFFpUF3xohR7die+/B2V9oqRQzTLeSF2ECKlsTY/yUyw2kn+P2ju1umh4Fwzd cVTvc+H69q1+Ft3kmw/PE0Pan+g0PUGGJ43stw3q4OgBHdixbRd/f9giJFDxAAUR tCZKYW1lcyBBLiBGb3N0ZXIgPGZvc3RlckBjcy51aWRhaG8uZWR1PokAlQMFEDD8 ReEXf3/YIiRQ8QEBFrAD/2AFuRWcD/3MENC3qJMC/Or1qxknjkK7Uv+TDf2LHPOY GHBbG9PyWuXQ8of0Dd+JYwf/tzlO9Yk1s1zTdikfriak21FW0bCokxDIhA3myppZ IZDWVA9CyvDYHuP5Ii1NkBvocab813JzDLZA+0iVN5sebGb9zSXR4Za47hlriHeP =RDHK —–END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—–

Response:

I’m unable to find this group either.  Address again?  The one I got a week ago just doesn’t connect, at least on my server… — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Response:

I’m unable to find this group either.  Address again?  The one I got a week ago just doesn’t connect, at least on my server… — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying is what I have been trying to join. — Charlie Choc Charles E. Choc & Associates Computer Telephony Consulting Marietta Georgia, USA

Response:

Al, I still can’t seem to get to the new group from IBM’s ADVANTIS network so other folks may be having similar problems with their news servers. Hopefully they will all be ironed out soon. — Charlie Choc Charles E. Choc & Associates Computer Telephony Consulting Marietta Georgia, USA

Hi Charlie, Sorry to hear you network is not carrying the tying newsgroup – at least I assume this is the problem. My last look at the group indicated about 75 messages on the current screen. Maybe a call or email to your network server would be in order. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

, I am having trouble accessing the fly tying group through America On Line. , It will show up for a while and then disappear. When I search for it-it’s , gone.  No one seems to be posting there. I keep loggin on, but no new messages appear. We need a few people to log on to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying, with something (anything) to say!

Something is wrong on your end.  My site did not add the group until it was officially released, but since then (a week or so) there have been around a dozen messages a day on it. Dave

Response:

Hi Vic, I’ve been corresponding through the tying newsgroup with several folks who use AOL and they seem to have no problem. Anyway the tying group seems to be taking off. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Al, I still can’t seem to get to the new group from IBM’s ADVANTIS network so other folks may be having similar problems with their news servers. Hopefully they will all be ironed out soon. — Charlie Choc Charles E. Choc & Associates Computer Telephony Consulting Marietta Georgia, USA

Response:

I am having trouble accessing the fly tying group through America On Line. It will show up for a while and then disappear. When I search for it-it’s gone. Is this a common problem for AOL members or am I doing something stupid again? Vic’s Fly-By-Night Too much time spent tying Not enough fishing

Response:

Hi Vic, I’ve been corresponding through the tying newsgroup with several folks who use AOL and they seem to have no problem. Anyway the tying group seems to be taking off. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

, I am having trouble accessing the fly tying group through America On Line. , It will show up for a while and then disappear. When I search for it-it’s , gone.   No one seems to be posting there. I keep loggin on, but no new messages appear. We need a few people to log on to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying, with something (anything) to say!

Response:

Question:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I and several others noticed there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could spend on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagellation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)? Few things get my burner going like the guardian of holy secrets of fly   fishing. When I graduated to a Fenwick Eagle rod, Berkly reel and a pair of Redball waders, I braved the Yellowstone.  I didn’t have a clue.  Talk about being intimidated.  Time was precious and I needed to know what and how to fish it.  So I went up to a guy and asked.  He eyeballed me up and down, gave me that "oooooh, what a big spender you are" look, and went back to tying on his fly without a word." Maybe that is the problem, you think there are "holy secrets of flyfishing", a magic grail that is a substitute for personal observation and experience. Maybe the gentleman on the Yellowstone was giving you his "oooooh no, another dude who thinks his time is too precious to do his homework and acquire the necessary skills before coming here" look.

Well, I guess we got each other pegged.  I never went and got my flyfishing Phd.  Hope I never do.

Response:

Charlie,     Do have kids… in their 20s now and they give others space on the stream… Learned fishing manners by age 10 or so.                 Prof. 8x  

Response:

   We all better polish our social skills if we are going to keep, pursuing this wonderful pass time.  I can remember fishing Grand Lake Stream, Slate Run and even the Madison when I was the only person in sight, those days are GONE. I miss them but I’m learning to adapt by:  fishing mostly during the week, fishing water that is difficult to wade and (difficult to boat sometimes) from a specialized water craft, discovering places that have solitude and good fly fishing for different fish (smallmouth bass being my favorite other fish, ounce for ounce fights as good as any trout I’ve ever met.)    And although I’m a loner in many ways I’ve enjoyed interacting with other fisherman as I’ve grown up.  In fact last week and weekend I was on the Halston in Tenn. and it was fairly busy (sulfurs in mid day and all that) and I was impressed with the courtesy and friendship displayed by the east Tenn. folks (Like why don’t you try that 20" brown he’s got me stumped !!)   You had to duck flying hardware on the weekend but the local fly fisherman were very nice. Hats off to them.                                           regards leo

Response:

: Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a : modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of : fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in : letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that : a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream : asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   Well, there you go.  Wanna talk sociology?  Most, not all, good streams are located in rural areas.  In rural areas, it is considered rude to *not* acknowledge the presence of another.  I know this is not true in the urban environment, but it is proper behavior on most streams.  (Unless there are bank to bank fisherfolk, and if that is the case, why are you there?) Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

For every jerk out there who ignores you there are a 100 who are willing to share what they know. Ignore the jerks and keep looking. Bill A.

Response:

: asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   : that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and : inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with :                   :                                     Prof. 8x ‘ Hmmm, no kids, eh, Prof? :^) Charley

Response:

Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the space of others verbally if not physically.   Suggest that a number of you try bowling or perhaps joining a tractor pull fan club as those activities seem more in keeping with your ideas of appropriate streamside conduct.  Comradeship/fellowship involves more that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with the fish when I am in the stream less important that whatever it is you want to interrupt me with?  Do you exhibit the same rudeness to your associates or strangers in the office or at a cocktail party?                                       Prof. 8x

Response:

Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick

Hi, Rick. John Propp?  Nice guy.  I met him at Brown’s a year or two ago.  He said he built rods, but I had no idea he had a shop.  How’d I miss that?  Where is it at? Thanks, -Dick

Response:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I, and judging my most of the other responses, several others notice there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could of spent on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagelation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)?

Response:

[bandwidthectomy] : Now to take on your detractor: : I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living.  They : are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and : socially daunting to most.  I’ll bet they only bought the outlandishly : over priced flies to force you into a few seconds of hopeful conversation. Well put.  I can’t agree with Mike on this one, although it marks a first.  Guiding, like ffishing, is a career (or hobby) that should be built over years.  The good guide is always guiding and eventually he or she will be paid well for it.  And besides, you don’t just hang a sign up and declare yourself a guide worth hiring.  A bit like consulting…I had to give away a lot of free advice before anyone thought it worth paying for.  Same with teaching.  Should I simply ignore the poor students and focus on the ones I figure will succeed?  Many do, but I think not.  And for what it is worth, I think this is a good discussion.  I don’t want to wallow in sexist BS here, but I love a good sports shop.  Hang out and talk fishing with the guys.  Why does it matter what car one drives (to the shop, that is…I still say it is a goofball that drives a $30K car down a dusty, broken road and parks next to a stream.) : Yakima or the Silver Bow in Spokane.   Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

I have been looking for a good dependable fly-shop; however, I   have been warned against Kaufmans, as they were described as   being too uptight and impersonal. Not everybody. Talk to Rod. Steer clear of john hazen. he’s a wealth of information, but only willing to talk to big spenders or people who impress him that they know what they’re doing already. (I’ve fooled him a Sean Williams Student, Teacher, Angler Portland, Ore., USA

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Response:

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  

You’re right. Apologies to john hazen You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".

Well, yes and no. I agree that "big spenders" is perjoritive, but I can think of several situations when a buyer will be laying out big bucks on a new system, or people going on one of the travel packages will be in the store. Often, this is someone new to fishing, who wants (deserves?) special attention to accompany the large purchase. At those times, I can forget about receiving any service. And maybe rightly so. However, although my criticisms might have been unfair or harsh, they are not far from the truth.  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Now its your turn to be a bit more charitable.  My statements were intended for a new angler who needs advice from professionals like those at Kaufmann’s. I think unfair to call their shop staff snobbish, because I don’t think it is, even john hazel.  On the other hand, I have seen people get the short end of the stick while in there. John and the others aren’t there by accident