Question:

"Greg Pavlov" wrote  The consolation is that you can then get next  year’s model: it will come with headlights, two  cup holders, and a reverse hydration system.

I assume that’s the women’s version? Bob

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   Well Uncle Wally i guess i will have to have a talk with the big cheese at Simms i thought you was to get the G3"s last month ahead of everyone else.    Well did the rep at least leave the one’s you were prancing around the shop in?                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

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   Well Uncle Wally i guess i will have to have a talk with the big cheese at Simms i thought you was to get the G3"s last month ahead of everyone else.

shoot mike, that would be unethical <g    Well did the rep at least leave the one’s you were prancing around the shop in?

i tried…. but it was the only pair he had with him on his sales rounds. besides, they were a bit small fer me. he did leave me with some sage stuff to play with. have ya been down to penns lately? i have a buddy that wants to fish it in the spring and we’re planning on a long weekend in march or april. –wally

Response:

Hi everyone! I was planning on buying a pair of Simms guide weight waders when I’m visiting Canada next month. When I contacted a local shop about the waders, they told me that Simms had a new 2003 model of the guide weight waders coming out (the old model will be called ‘Classic Guide’ from now on). Has anyone seen the new model or heard of them? What are the differences?

No, but I figure the *real* difference is about a year. Op  –seriously– – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Jarmo Hurri

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Guyz-N-Flyz No, but I figure the *real* difference is about a year. Not *only* that, but also 100CAD. But I’d still be interested to find out. — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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Guyz-N-Flyz No, but I figure the *real* difference is about a year. Not *only* that, but also 100CAD. But I’d still be interested to find out. — Jarmo Hurri

Try to PING Uncle Wally at ezflyfish.com.  I be he has a new pair in stock, and would know if the differences are worth the extra cost. Op

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Guyz-N-Flyz Try to PING Uncle Wally at ezflyfish.com.  I be he has a Guyz-N-Flyz new pair in stock, and would know if the differences are Guyz-N-Flyz worth the extra cost. Heck, he’s got it *all* http://www.ezflyfish.com/simmsg3waders.html — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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No, but I figure the *real* difference is about a year. Op  –seriously–

And a lot of dollars   /Roger

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Hi everyone! I was planning on buying a pair of Simms guide weight waders when I’m visiting Canada next month. When I contacted a local shop about the waders, they told me that Simms had a new 2003 model of the guide weight waders coming out (the old model will be called ‘Classic Guide’ from now on). Has anyone seen the new model or heard of them? What are the differences?

hey Jarmo, I’ve seen and tried a pair on about a month ago when the Simms sales rep was in the shop. It has new features and is more breathable according to Simms. I’ve just yesterday loaded the image and Simms press release at my site: http://www.ezflyfish.com/simmsg3waders.html I haven’t field tested a pair yet so I can’t give you any advise concerning it’s functionality etc. but the pair I wore around the store was very comfortable and seemed to be built very well. Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

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differences…. a few that I liked…. 1) Built in gravel guards. 2) the hand warmer will be ideal for holding bottled water or other beverages of choice…. easy access ;^) 3) the ass portion is more durable. i slide on my butt down boulders and hills quite a bit when i fish nc streams. i do this for safety because i’m not very stable walking downhill or downstream. 4) the knees are also more durable which is important here also…. low stealthy profile when fishing. 5) the little built-in chest pack will allow minimalist (no vest) fishing. — wally

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Walt differences…. a few that I liked…. Walt 1) Built in gravel guards. Walt 3) the ass portion is more durable. i slide on my butt down Walt    boulders and hills quite a bit when i fish nc streams. i do Walt    this for safety because i’m not very stable walking downhill Walt    or downstream. Walt 4) the knees are also more durable which is important here Walt    also…. low Walt    stealthy profile when fishing. I think these three are pretty important. But… a bit of bad luck. I’m coming over there in December, and the product will be available in January. Sigh… — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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And a lot of dollars  

Indian Joe replies–and for the big dollars they did not include a zippered fly for those us who had too much beer last night or too much coffee this morning. or a back supporting belt with a water bottle holder. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Sound to me like Uncle Wally has some Jarmo. He could proberly hook you up with a set.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

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Sound to me like Uncle Wally has some Jarmo. He could proberly hook you up with a set.                    Handyman Mike         Standing in a river waving a stick

nahhh Mike, I won’t be receiving any until they ship them in January to all the dealers. I think I have 15 or so pair due in. –wally

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Greg  The consolation is that you can then get next year’s model: it Greg  will come with headlights, two cup holders, and a reverse Greg  hydration system. I don’t think that reinforced parts in the posterior area and knees qualify in the same class as cup holders. It’s not an imagined need. On the other hand, I do admit that I don’t know how strong these reinforced parts are when compared with the ‘classic’ ones. — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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I think these three are pretty important. But… a bit of bad luck. I’m coming over there in December, and the product will be available in January. Sigh… – The consolation is that you can then get next year’s model: it will come with headlights, two cup holders, and a reverse hydration system.

And tail fins!

Response:

Hi everyone! I was planning on buying a pair of Simms guide weight waders when I’m visiting Canada next month. When I contacted a local shop about the waders, they told me that Simms had a new 2003 model of the guide weight waders coming out (the old model will be called ‘Classic Guide’ from now on). Has anyone seen the new model or heard of them? What are the differences? — Jarmo Hurri address or apply rot13 to header email address.

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Question:

wish ‘em luck Peter

An article in The Electronic Telegraph, a London e-paper, has an article on the SAS unit.  Also mentioned was the deployment of Tornados to the "little" military exercise in Oman, with about 20,000 people.  I don’t think most people, on either side, are aware of the size of the wave about to break. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!

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An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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The British SAS were used in the Iranian embassy siege in London a few years ago.  They went in from the roof and balcony and killed all, but one, of hostage takers.  The stroy goes that when they realised one of the hostage takers was hiding among the hostages outside the embassy, they went out to drag him inside to kill him.  Hostages pleaded for his life to be spared. He is serving life in jail. They took out IRA members in Gibraltar, leaving the bodies on the road. There was accusations of a "shoot-to-kill" policy. They turn up in many places where justice, law and order fails to take hold.  For example, an IRA man was found not guilty at the Old Bailey (Central Criminal Court, London) despite overwhelming evidence.  A few weeks later, he was shot dead, along with his mates, in a Northern Ireland churchyard, having just robbed a bank. The SAS are based at Hereford.  Its best to say "Sir" to anyone you speak to in Hereford. Bobby Bewl —

I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

Any relation to the 24th Yorkshire Foot and Mouth? Bobby

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has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment

Then this article, in yesterday’s Sunday Times, will not have gone down very well: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa02023.html "Tom Carew, an SAS soldier who helped turn Afghanistan’s fighters into an effective modern guerrilla force, on the daunting task facing allied troops in the air or on the ground.  My life with the mujaheddin." — Phil Jones

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They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

In WWII, the Commandos were Royal Marines whereas the SAS were drawn mostly from the army and RAF.  The Commandos specialized in amphibious raids while the SAS, as the name suggests, used airborne and overland approaches. There is a Royal Marine version of the SAS called the SBS (Special Boat Squadron) that is even more clandestine than the SAS (and if you ask a Marine – tougher.)  Just to confuse matters, the SAS has a Boat Troop that operates similarly to the SBS while the SBS also operates from naval helicopters.  Both the SAS and the SBS originated in WWII. http://business.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/Nsco/a/r/m/armedforces/mari… http://www.britains-smallwars.com/main/SBS.htm Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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If there is a reasonably accurate account of the SAS in book form or official history, I woiuld like to add a copy to our Museum’s library.  We currently have a little material from W.W.II North African campaigns in the collection including some Desert Rats material.  Our collection includes significant material from England and Commonwealth counries from both World Wars and the Cold War.  We hold the largest ANZAC collection in the US and need to expand input from the British. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!

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They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps.

I was in high school during WW II, but I remember reading about British "Commandos," which I vaguely recall was a word taken from a Dutch word "commando" used during the Boer War. Was "Commandos " another name for the SAS? vince norris

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Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences? Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Thanks for getting back to us.  BTW, there are a number of regiment histories out there – preferences?

One that was semi-officially sanctioned by the Regiment several years ago was "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty.  It is pretty factual, although obviously just a selection of stuff that can be made public.  Of interest is the fact that Tony Geraghty, an ex-Territorial (Reserve) paratrooper and journalist wrote a book about Northern Ireland only a couple of years ago and got himself arrested for spilling a few too many beans.  His earlier book mentioned above, is pretty accurate up to the Gulf War. There are numerous others, but most are either glamourizing tales of bravado written with an eye to the dollars, or semi-political works that try to make the authors’ pet point. The more accurate books are restricted circulation ones within the SAS Association or Special Forces Club library. There is one by Ken Connor, a long-time member of the Regiment, called "Ghost" I think from memory – it’s not too bad, but he does push his own barrow a fair bit, and has a slightly jaundiced view of things.  Some say he was in there too long.  I had just under 6 years in, and I saw enough to make me appreciate all the good things in life, and also to recognize what’s REALLY important in life as opposed to what society and peer- pressure try to tell us is important.  That’s why I enjoy fly-fishing! (Nifty, cunning return to topic there – heheh — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe.

Just for the record, he was knighted back in the 1980s, and he died in 1991, just a few months before the Regiment’s jubilee (50th) birthday celebrations, which I attended and was marked by a touch of sadness that the founder had not quite made it. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public.

Both.  The inaccuracies are real and grossly exaggerated.  It’s interesting that no mention of these huge body counts was made in the video-taped debriefings of both ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’.  And the other reason for the dislike of the books is that has long been the unwritten rule that one does NOT write about one’s life in the Regiment.  It’s for this reason that the two writers mentioned are now persona non grata in the Regiment and its Association.  Mind you – I’m sure they’re crying all the way to the bank…. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way.

Just to balance the accounts a bit – let me just say that several ex- members of the Regiment HAVE written books that are held in much higher esteem than the ‘McNab’ and ‘Ryan’ books, but these are (a) factual, (b) usually limited distribution through the Association, and (c) not glorifying or exaggerating any deeds or misdeeds. Knocking down heroes is a peculiar sport, but in the opinion of most members and ex-members of the Regiment, neither ‘McNab’ or ‘Ryan’ were heroes – they just did a bloody good E + E (escape and evasion) effort, then tried to cash in on this stuffed up patrol and make ‘heroes’ out of themselves. — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom"

I’m aware that McNab’s book hasn’t received the best of reviews from his former associates, though to the best of my knowledge, the 250 number came from other sources, not McNab.  Having had a former SAS Flt. Lt. as a training officer, I know about their reticence regarding any sort of publicity.  So I wonder whether the regiment’s dislike of the book comes from perceived inaccuracies in the story or the fact that McNab has profited from matters that should not have been made public. (Cultural information note to the U.S. contingent in the ROFFian Universe.)  Over the past few decades the British and especially the Canadians have developed the bad habit of viciously tearing down their heros as soon as they’ve elevated them.  While it’s always wise to view claims to heroism with a clear eye, the counter-claims from these sources should be viewed, at the very least, the same way. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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SAS = ?

British special forces (Special Air Service) – originated during WW II as a raiding force to fight Rommel’s forces in Africa, and obviously it stuck together.  The man who started it (Stirling) was knighted about 10 years ago I believe. By the way, at one point Stirling was a POW in Colditz Castle, which was the inspiration for the computer game that "started it all" (yes, a shooter game that preceded Doom) – Castle Wolfenstein.  (There was also a board game called "Escape From Colditz".)  A later version of the computer game was "Spear of Destiny", where a commando was sent in to retrieve the spear that pierced the side of Christ, which was supposedly being kept by Himmler in the belief that Nazi armies would be invincible while it was in their possession (in keeping with his occult leanings.)  "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" is due out this fall, for more Nazi-killing goodness.  Boy is this OT.

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An SAS group was active for a brief time in South Yemen a few years ago (when there were *two* Yemens – now there is one).  These folks, like most shadow warriors are seldom seen, heard about only in rumor, and you surely wouldn’t want to wake up with them standing by your bed, if you are on the task list. This will likely be the sharpest edge of that terrible swift sword. Tom

I was involved in that little lot.  It was in the Radfan mountains in the mid-60s, (1966 to be exact) the mountain range between what was then South Yemen and the Protectorate of Aden, as the Brits were withdrawing from Aden, we were basically covering their collective backsides.  The terrain there was like the flipside of the moon, about 50degrees Celsius by day, and sub-zero at night, with rocks underfoot that could cut through a pair of tough desert boots in no time. Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

One small difference of opinion if I may – the SEALs were the USA’s answer to the SAS, not the other way around  The whole idea of Special FOrces, where small teams of highly-trained individuals could wreak more havoc than a company of grunts, originated in the fertile minds of David Stirling, his brother Bill Stirling, Paddy Maine, Jock Lewis, and a few others in 1942. According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution.

22SAS has had a very long involvement in the middle east, and particularly in desert terrain, including Aden as above, Oman (southern area called Dhofar) etc etc, and the regiment was actually started in the northern deserts of Africa in 1942.  They are long-time masters of ‘low- intensity’ campaigns, fighting guerilla tactics and winning hearts and minds as well as using all sorts of means to stay undetected deep behind enemy lines and across borders.  They are primarily a recon and special ops outfit rather than front-line engagement troops. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what

As a (shhh!) ex-member of the said regiment, back in the 60’s, allow me, as a long-time lurker here, to say a couple of words.  Andy ‘McNab’’s book is hugely exaggerated, especially about the number of Iraquis they allegedly ‘took out’ on the patrol which was a total stuff-up from day one.  There is another book about the same patrol, called "The One That Got Away" by Chris ‘Ryan’ (all pseudonyms) that is even more exaggerated and self-grandising. Now I’ll just fade silently back into "lurker-dom" — NightStalker Email addy is nightstalker87 at hot(you know).com

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Ditto Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

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having read down to bobby’s post…..I’m impressed… john

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  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

        up the empire, peetah!         thanks to the brits from         their friend in the old north state         wayno         and if you think *they’re* tough, wait ’til they get a whiff of the 24th foot…the south wales borderers.

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Peter Collin: SAS = ? Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

According to the Washington Post, they’ve been training in the Pakistani mountains for the past five years and before that, with the Pathan warriors against the Soviets.  If they follow standard SAS ops, most will speak the local language – they’ll concentrate on recon, demolition, and ambush; vectoring in a larger force for the capture and covering it on the extraction.  Then they’ll disappear again and we’ll probably never hear about their contribution. If anyone wants to get an inkling of current SAS ops, check out Andy McNab’s "Bravo Two Zero" about the Gulf War.  An 8 man SAS patrol lead by McNab on a Scud busting mission, was dropped inadvertently in the middle of two Iraqi divisions.  Their mission compromised right from the start, they made a 110 mile escape and evasion to the Syrian border.  One made it, three died (two from exposure) and four were captured at the Euphrates River, the border with Syria.  On the way, it was estimated that they took out over 250 Iraqi soldiers. They were started in WWII by David Stirling, operating in the desert, doing recon and blowing up Rommel’s airplanes and ammunition dumps. The old TV series Rat Patrol was, as is usual for Hollywood, stolen from SAS service history.  The series does give some sense of what their WWII desert ops were like.  Hitler gave orders that any captured SAS soldiers were to be executed immediately as they were too dangerous to be left alive. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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SAS = ?

Special Air Service. — Gary (Email address is munged with x’s)

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Peter Collin: SAS = ?

Special Air Service.  Roots from WWII.  It’s the Kippers’ answer to our SEALS, Special Forces, Rangers, etc.  Damn fine bunch even if they are Brits!  <g Dave

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I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Peter Charles: I haven’t seen it mentioned on CNN but the Toronto Sun has reported a fire fight between a Taliban force and an SAS recon patrol. Apparently, they’ve been in country for nearly a week, looking for bin Laden. wish ‘em luck

Damn straight, Peter!  Hope they get him.  Betcha you’re poppin’ some buttons! <g Dave

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SAS = ?

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aka "m-14" …special forces for Britain i believe… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – SAS = ?

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Question:

All who contribute to ROFF are equally important, as ROFF is a team effort, and as such far greater than any individual, or even the sum of the individuals involved. Most of us are here to enjoy ourselves in the discussion of a common interest and its periphery, often including wild  tangents,or indeed completely unrelated subject matter. Nobody has more rights than anybody else, and everybody is free to voice their opinions as they see fit.

Sounds like a great intro paragraph for any newbies stumbling in here and wondering what the hell we’re about.    Thanks for leading the way Mike. <bg Joe F.

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I was serious once in 1968.  Never again though.  I am not related to our fearless leader (or our defacto roff leader. wordsmith Mike Conner)   For people who like to stir up shit and get people worked up ( mostly over nothing ) roff is a "target rich" enviroment.  Many pots of stercium and me with a stick, how can one resist to stir it up once in a while. I do fly fish and do pick up many pearls of information ( for which I am grateful ) from roff participants.   I also try to contribute ( meaningful fly fishing information) when I am able. I consider any string "off topic" as open for any comments. I don’t like being corrected by Ditto headed republicans,  If you have the mental capacity of a 3 year old crowbar  what can you  teach?

OK, so Latin, grammar, and punctuation are out…from your other response, trolling is out.  I stick by my original suggestion…

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I do not lead anything or anybody at all, and I have no desire so to do. This being the case, I would prefer not to be so titulated. My opinions are worth no more than any other opinions which might be published by various people on here, except in the sense that some of my experience or knowledge of the subject  might tend to give them more weight.  I often discuss relatively simple facts, and there is little chance of much going wrong if one sticks to these. This applies only to subjects of which I have direct knowledge and experience, that is, mainly fishing related, and does not qualify me in any way to hold forth on any other subject. It is not my intention to influence people to any great degree, and I usually only answer specific questions or enter discussions on specific subjects about which I know something, apart from when I engage in writing usually more or less nonsensical doggerel, attempting mostly humorous comebacks, or the occasional story, which to date,  have all been factual, and related to direct experience. Most unfortunate that some people appear to have gotten the idea that I might lead anything.  All who contribute to ROFF are equally important, as ROFF is a team effort, and as such far greater than any individual, or even the sum of the individuals involved. Most of us are here to enjoy ourselves in the discussion of a common interest and its periphery, often including wild  tangents,or indeed completely unrelated subject matter. Nobody has more rights than anybody else, and everybody is free to voice their opinions as they see fit. While I am aware that many people respect my opinions, and  I find this gratifying of course, I would be most disappointed to be considered as some sort of guru, most especially one responsible for the general tone. This is most certainly not the case, and would also be insulting to many others, were it indeed so. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding.

I’ll concur.  In approx 26 years of fishing I’ve only been checked twice.  Actually, come to think of it, I need to take out some of those years since I was too young to need a license (sheesh, drops that number to 13 years).  Anyway, neither here nor there.  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers. I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. Just curious,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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  I would tend to believe that most _fishermen_ would follow the rules. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

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This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Yep. As long as the "regulations" don’t get too onerous, I think most flyfishers would follow them on an honor system.

Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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While completely nekkid, William Loehman/Susan Schwarz Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

It’s probably the latter. The DOW’s enforcement people are called District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – District Wildlife Managers. Technically, they’re peace officers[1] and are required to be certified as same, but they typically spend less than 30% of their rime on law enforcement. The other 70%-plus is spent on other wildlife management tasks. [1] Under the criminal code, they’re Peace Officers, Level II. That’s the same level as agents of other regulatory agencies like Gaming, Alcohol, Parole, Corrections, etc. That means that they’re not allowed to carry concealed weapons when they’re not on duty. "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

You must live in a strange part of Texas…Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be. Big Dale – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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You must live in a strange part of Texas…

I’m not in any part of Texas.  I couldn’t have been that bad in my previous life. Maybe we should have not given so much of the state away. Around here they are called game wardens and even the Texas Rangers are jealous of the power of a game warden. There is not a law enforcement officer in the state with more power.

They’ve got a fair bit of power here. More than I’ve got, and I’m a real live Peace Officer, Level I just like the city cops and CSP and CBI. The only difference is that I make less, can’t enter private property without PC, warrant, or exigency, and I get to wear my gun home at night if I feel like it. Unfortunately, very few game theives spend many years in prison even when caught. Their fines are seldom over the cost of a house, and few even have their pickups consficated as they should be.

It gets worse. There was a waterfowl-poaching case that the USFWS took a few years ago. The plea agreement was for forfeiture of all firearms and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence. It’s good to know that damage to our common resources is taken seriously by the Federal district judges. (This was a judge in TX, but I’m not sure which district, etc.) "They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone — the most comprehensive of rights…" -Justice Louis Brandeis

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–                                                       -dnc- ET1 wrote …  Personally I’ve seen a LOT of anglers who don’t follow regulations, but it’s almost exclusively been on the put-n-take waters and sorry to say it, but it’s almost always been those fishing with bait and filling freezers.

That’s consistent with what I’ve seen over the years too.  Most poaching I’ve witnessed was in areas where people already had the legal right to take a hefty number of fish. Hmmm.  I wonder how the poached dead fish statistics compare to number of released fish killed? I think unenforceable regulations are followed in direct proportion to how much people believe in the rationale behind the regulation and the chances of them getting caught.  Don’t see this being of much use for overcrowding. Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply.

I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

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and vehicles used, plus five digits in fines and a few months in prison. Even the defense bought it. Then the judge knocked the fines down to three digits, wiped out half of the forfeitures, and suspended the sentence.

Sounds like the plea agreement was on the right track, except I think there must have been a typo as it came out a few months in prison when it should have been a few years. Then the judge went and screwed it up. Big Dale

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Just throwing something out here, but has anyone thought about maybe making multiple access points to popular waters?  I’ve never fished ANY moving water where I’ve felt even remotely crowded so I’m just guessing here.  Is there limited access?  Just me, but I can’t see why anyone would purposely fish as close together as some of you seem to imply. I don’t like the idea of increasing access.  While I think all public lands should be open to everyone, remoteness still has a value in protecting some resources from overuse.

I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance. Later,      - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only  arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience."  - Mike Connor

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I’m mostly just curious.  I’ve never fished moving water where I felt crowded.  If there are more people fishing than I felt comfortable with, I just start walking.  Just for my own understanding I’d like to know why the horror stories exist.  If some people don’t mind fishing in a crowd that’s fine by me, but I’ve never had trouble finding a remote spot within a reasonable walking distance.

Here in Wisconsin there are very few places left more than a mile from the nearest road.  The vast majority of the land here is considerably less.  Each fishing season northern Illinois (which includes Chicago for the geographically challenged) and eastern Minnesota (Minneapolis, St Paul) disgorge their teeming millions upon our fair waters.. Lots of other folks come from all over the place.    I dare say there are few places in America that get pounded as hard as our fair state.  Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations?

Inherently wrong? Of course there is. If there is not a reasonable degree of enforcement the laws will be ignored. You are talking about a law that would require an observer (or team of observers) to watch you fish all day and count your catch, as opposed to a policeman seeing you run a stop sign. — Charlie…

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George Adams wrote Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed.

I propose an law whereby it’s illegal to puke. <g —                                                       -dnc-

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I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least?

I don’t have a problem with published guidelines, but passing laws that you know can’t be enforced simply to establish those guidelines is worse than just wrong. — Charlie…

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Let’s look at it another way.. is there anything inherently wrong with unenforceable regulations? One parallel is traffic laws.. so why do traffic laws work?  The potential of catching stop sign runners is so extremely low, but most people stop.  So then.. is it the threat of enforcement, or is it because we all realize it would be chaos if we didn’t follow the rules? I’ve said this before, but aside from the most popular fishing spots, take limits are also pretty unenforceable.  There are just too few fish & game officers to make the threat of being caught real.  Yet, it seems most people do follow the rules. Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I do agree that most people do behave responsibly.. but for those who want to be responsible C&R’ers, what do they have to go on?  Shouldn’t there be some guidelines at least? -Mark But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I was fishing a week ago and was checked twice.  When the fist warden came through, he checked my licence out and we talked for a minute or two about the area and what DNR is doing.  He then walked over to where two other fisherman were fishing about 50-60 yards away.  It didn’t take much time for the warden to pull out his pad and start writing something on a piece of paper.  The warden handed the paper to the two fisherman and then the fisherman left.  These two fisherman were sitting there the entire time that the warden and I were talking and could have easily seen the game warden and left, but they didn’t.  I don’t know what makes some people so stupid. A third group of people moved in fairly close to where I was throwing the fly.  In fact, they were too close for my liking.  I was just about ready walkaway when the  second game warden came through.  The warden checked out my licence and we had a short talk about the area.  He then went to the other group of people.  I was close enough to hear the warden ask for their licence and then tell them, "you need a licence to fish."  Obviously, they didn’t have a licence.  The warden gave them a warning and walked away.  He didn’t even ask them to stop fishing. When I walked back to my car at the end of the day, passing the original spot, these fisherman were still fishing.  It was hard for me to understand why the warden wouldn’t make these creeps stop fishing. Earlier in the year, I saw a group of people collecting, I will not say fishing, fish with a cast net. They had several buckets with about 40 fish in them.  I was so upset, I went to a park ranger and they did nothing.  This was a put-and-take area.  I then called the DNR and they set out to check on the poachers.  The poachers were gone when they arrived.  DNR told me that they could nothing unless the offenders could be caught.  They also told me that the park ranger should have stopped and cited the poachers.  They also told me that this problem with the park rangers in not uncommon in this area.  The park rangers want to concentrate on people management not wildlife management.  I’m still upset about that situation. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie… I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible.

Take limits are enforceable regulations, he is talking about implementing unenforceable ones. — Charlie…

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 ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations.

I have only been checked once in my (considerably shorter) life, but I think that it is safe to say that it is cheaper to fish without a license all the time and pay the fines when you get checked than to buy a license every year. The time I got checked I was following all fishing regulations, but I had to hide my beer in a hurry, since I was only 16 at the time. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

I personally have no idea what an appropriate take limit should be for specific fish in a specific area.  I don’t think that the average fisherman does either.  I need to know what the limit is in order to behave responsibly.  Making it a law gives the authorities a means of punishing those that are grossly irresponsible. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

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BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

Count me among those who are likely to puke if one more unenforcable, or unenforced, law is passed. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits.

Who is this we and where have you shown yourselves to be irresponsible with respect to fishing? BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority.

The majority who don’t behave responsibly unless they are told to? — Charlie…

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But I think we’ve already shown that we cannot be trusted to self-police. That’s why we need take limits. BTW, count me among the people who believe that regulations do not need to be enforceable to be respected by the majority. Well, what’s so onerous about "use some common sense, please?"  You’re too trusting, I fear.  The true sportspersons will act properly, and don’t need laws/regs, but mere suggestions and education, but the bozos will act like bozos, and the laws/regs are needed to keep them from destroying everything, even if through sheer ignorance rather than maliciousness or greed. —

–  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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Naturally, this results in some very crowded conditions in some places.  But despite all this, I have never had any trouble finding a place to fish in solitude when I wanted to.  I think the trouble some people have with this one Ken is that they haven’t mastered the rules for finding out of the way spots, and so: 1.  Find out where everybody goes. 2.  Go someplace else.                                      

That’s not the problem I have with over crowding. Especially on streams and rivers, I just think that the extreme over crowding that happens in our "famous" waters, is very disrespectful and harmful to the resource and shouldn’t be allowed. I’m no different than you. I find places that others don’t fish. I fished for Wisconsin stream trout for the first time last Fall and found a place where I didn’t come across any other anglers in full day of fishing. Very nice! Willi

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I’ve been fishing for forty five years. During my childhood and teens, I fished throughout the Midwest and Canada.  For the last 25 years, I’ve lived in Colorado and have fished most of the Rocky Mt.. area. I’ve only been asked to show my fishing license twice in my whole live. I’ve never had an officer ask to see what fish I had kept or see if my fly was barbless in barbless water or ……. Either I’m the luckiest guy in the world or there are extremely few DOW officers around that are enforcing regulations. On the other hand, I’ve only seen a few people fishing or keeping fish in violation of regulations. It seems that our regulations are personally enforced or enforced by the presence of other anglers. My experience is that the vast majority of anglers follow regulations even without the threat of enforcement from the legal system. This would imply to me that regulations that were not readily enforceable, would still be followed by the majority of anglers. I would personally like to see "regulations" of this type used to reduce over crowding. Willi

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Question:

Recently I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bought an Airflo Polyleader (floating, light trout variety) from ezflyfish.com and really like its ability to turnover. Unlike Maxima, this tapered leader is very flexible – feels like a gel.  It limply rolls off my reel with nearly imperceptible coiling, every time – no need to stretch it out. Also when casting, it seems like it has better momentum transfer from fly line to leader than my hand tied leaders.  The Maxima leaders work well, but the Polyleader really rolls off the end of the cast.  However it does seem also to create a bit more disturbance when lifting off the water.   Depending on the size of the fly and making an adjustment in my casting stroke I can completely straighten out my leader using either type but the Polyleader appears to have better unfurling properties.  Rather than a leader butt, it’s more like a clear finely tapered fly line floating tip.  Might be similar to some of these new clear or clear tipped fly lines available.  Your observations? experiences?

I was introduced to the Airflo leaders in NZ this February by my guide, and have been using them ever since.  I agree with your assessment of their capabilities — they’re fantastic. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Mu We haven’t exchanged posts in a while, how’s it going?   I make my own leaders and I’ve been downsizing the butt rather than making them from thick, stiff mono.  I’ve found that the lighter lines (<5 wt.) sometimes have problems turning them over.  The line rolls out in a nice tight loop but the leader opens up then the tippet and fly lands in a heap.  A sign that the tip of the fly line wasn’t able to move the butt.  I haven’t used the poly leader but I have used their older ones and they definitely turn over better than stiff butt factory leaders.  No  question. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve always heard that you need a stiff butt for your leaders for better turnover. Maxima Chameleon is stiff and I like the color and strength so I have been using it most of the time for tying my own leaders.  Recently I bought an Airflo Polyleader (floating, light trout variety) from ezflyfish.com and really like its ability to turnover. Unlike Maxima, this tapered leader is very flexible – feels like a gel.  It limply rolls off my reel with nearly imperceptible coiling, every time – no need to stretch it out. Also when casting, it seems like it has better momentum transfer from fly line to leader than my hand tied leaders.  The Maxima leaders work well, but the Polyleader really rolls off the end of the cast.  However it does seem also to create a bit more disturbance when lifting off the water.   Depending on the size of the fly and making an adjustment in my casting stroke I can completely straighten out my leader using either type but the Polyleader appears to have better unfurling properties.  Rather than a leader butt, it’s more like a clear finely tapered fly line floating tip.  Might be similar to some of these new clear or clear tipped fly lines available.  Your observations? experiences? Mu Young Lee                         Ann Arbor, MI   USA

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I’ve always heard that you need a stiff butt for your leaders for better turnover. Maxima Chameleon is stiff and I like the color and strength so I have been using it most of the time for tying my own leaders<snip

Hi Mu, Thirty plus years ago, we nail knotted on an ~24" butt of clear hard Mason mono. Then we blood knotted on a Berkley tapered knotless leader. We then used Gladding ‘Gladell’ tippet from France(?). Boy, 6x ‘Gladell’ was pretty hot stuff in those days. I thought that I read something by Lefty Kreh recently that the diameter or mass of the leader butt is what caused the leader to ‘turn over’, not the stiffness. I think he is promoting soft leader butts now? The old rule of thumb was to use two-thirds the diameter of the tip or point of the fly line for a proper butt diameter. I try to get the rigidity of the mono butt section to match the rigidity of the end of the fly line. The best thing to do is get a friend to help you do some testing. One guy cast, while the other one watches the leader turn over?

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I tried some polyleaders at a fly fair in Denmark, and was so impressed with the difference that I bought a whole set of them in various types, Floating, intermediate, slow sinking and ultra fast sinking.  I have not had much chance to use them yet, but I find them far superior to the standard nylon tapered leaders, and they also turn over better than my own carefully hand tied ones. I will be using them as often as possible as soon as I get to do some fishing again. ( too much work at the moment ! ).  I find the floaters do not "pick off" quite as cleanly as nylon, but that is a minor disadvantage if at all. Still have not figured out why this is, but suspect they actually do float a little lower, and this makes them more difficult to pick off. Will have to try a few experiments. Mine are not from Airflo, but from a firm called Scierra. May not be entirely the same. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I tried some polyleaders at a fly fair in Denmark, and was so impressed with the difference that I bought a whole set of them in various types, Floating, intermediate, slow sinking and ultra fast sinking.  

Yeah, Walt sells them in a set too but I couldn’t afford to buy it so I just tried the floating one. I have not had much chance to use them yet, but I find them far superior to the standard nylon tapered leaders, and they also turn over better than my own carefully hand

I was quite surprised by that too.                 I find the floaters do not "pick off" quite as cleanly as nylon, but that is a minor disadvantage if at all. Still have not figured out why this is, but suspect they actually do float a little lower, and this makes them more difficult to pick off. Will have to try a few experiments.

The coating feels like some sort of gel.  It’s definitely not as smooth as nylon.  My guess is that under a microscope it probably will display many small inrregularites which can momentarily hold water as it’s being lifted off the surface. Mine are not from Airflo, but from a firm called Scierra. May not be entirely the same.

I believe Rio also makes similar products.  A friend had told me about Polyleaders last December but I couldn’t really find them anywhere.  A few months ago I ordered a fast sinker from a mail order outfit (Feathercraft) but they didn’t have any that were suitable for a 4 wt (they offered two varieties, a Trout series and a Salmon/Bass series). It wasn’t until I stumbled upon ezflyfish.com that I realized that Airflo also had a Light Trout series.  At ~$7 each they can get pricey.  So far I’ve been quite pleased.  The test will be to see how long they last. Mu

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There’s nothing like forgetting to bring t.p. to make you keep a stiff butt. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

To all dos ROFFers and ROFFets who geff so yenerously to ar last butt apple Verst I vant to say dat back in May I tink it vas you guys ver dealing wit dis picture dat Torben sent from Norvey off de butt-challanged Nordska on is veb site. IAnd dis vomen had a butt dat youst made dis old man cry, becouse da vomen Ive sen parading into de  local Sons of Norway Hall in Poulsbo, Washington (USA) are more posterially endowed den dat undernourished pixie in Torbens veb site.  Vich is anuder sample of da superiority of de Nortmerican diet but dats a hole nudder kettle of lutafisc. Vell now de topic is stiff butts und I vant to extend de offer originally made on behaf off de poor Scandahovian waifs, to da sufferers off dis stiff butt ting. I don relly no dat much about it, but wat da hell it  zounds like a fit. Come on you guys, do ve need anuder Marshall Plan or vhut? Lets veed dese schildren!!! Send da tax  deductable contribution to da Ad Hoc Nordska Butt Fund, General = Delivery, Poulsbo, WA "A mind is a terrible ting to vaste, but a sckinny butt? I tell you, dats a whole lot versor. Ya you betcha!" (Now serffing da sterf butted as vell. Becas ve care a lot.) Daveff PS: un update on da Evil Torkleson Rototiller Luttefisk  barrel  record yump attemp.  Volks, he’s going fur fife barrels dis year at da Poulsbo Vikingfest, ant ittle be a ting ta see. Da new bearings are in from Harley, ant vhen Ole’s back from da halibut fishing ve vill get dem in.

Response:

I’ve always heard that you need a stiff butt for your leaders for better turnover. Maxima Chameleon is stiff and I like the color and strength so I have been using it most of the time for tying my own leaders.  Recently I bought an Airflo Polyleader (floating, light trout variety) from ezflyfish.com and really like its ability to turnover. Unlike Maxima, this tapered leader is very flexible – feels like a gel.  It limply rolls off my reel with nearly imperceptible coiling, every time – no need to stretch it out. Also when casting, it seems like it has better momentum transfer from fly line to leader than my hand tied leaders.  The Maxima leaders work well, but the Polyleader really rolls off the end of the cast.  However it does seem also to create a bit more disturbance when lifting off the water.   Depending on the size of the fly and making an adjustment in my casting stroke I can completely straighten out my leader using either type but the Polyleader appears to have better unfurling properties.  Rather than a leader butt, it’s more like a clear finely tapered fly line floating tip.  Might be similar to some of these new clear or clear tipped fly lines available.  Your observations? experiences? Mu Young Lee                         Ann Arbor, MI   USA

Response:

To all dos ROFFers and ROFFets who geff so yenerously to ar last butt apple Verst I vant to say dat back in May I tink it vas you guys ver dealing wit dis picture dat Torben sent from Norvey off de butt-challanged Nordska on is veb site.

<gasp What would St. Olaf say about all this? Mu

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve always heard that you need a stiff butt for your leaders for better turnover. Maxima Chameleon is stiff and I like the color and strength so I have been using it most of the time for tying my own leaders<snip Hi Mu, Thirty plus years ago, we nail knotted on an ~24" butt of clear hard Mason mono. Then we blood knotted on a Berkley tapered knotless leader. We then used Gladding ‘Gladell’ tippet from France(?). Boy, 6x ‘Gladell’ was pretty hot stuff in those days. I thought that I read something by Lefty Kreh recently that the diameter or mass of the leader butt is what caused the leader to ‘turn over’, not the stiffness. I think he is promoting soft leader butts now?

Absolutely right! The physics of the thing goes with limp leaders NOT stiff ones. Ideally, the whole cast (line/leader/tippet) should involve a steadily decreasing local mass being turned over by the waning energy of the cast. Here in Britain, when we’re reservoir fishing in boats ‘on the drift’, we often use leaders of straight through thin mono, sometimes 20 feet or more long, with droppers. Leader turnover isn’t a problem, because by definition we’re fishing down wind and the breeze helps straighten things out. But this kind of set up is much more difficult (sometimes impossible) to use into the wind and one knows the difference straight away, when the breeze dies to a calm. You have to shorten the leader, or (better) change to a proper tapered one to fish effectively in calms or into the wind. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Question:

Greetings, Wow, I’ve been monitoring this newsgroup for a couple of weeks and never knew how many of my fellow flyfishers were on the net.  I’ve been a computer professional for most of my adult life, but never though much about computers and flyfishing until recently.  Well, anyway, here’s my question. 1) Are there any members of this group who are interested in FFing West Virginia?  If so, I have info, etc. 2) Are there any members who live or fish WV regularly that might like to provide info about WV FFing to fellow members of this newsgroup? 3) Is there interest in seeing a West Virginia FFing Web Page?  I have the technical skills to put it up(at my cost-this is no solicitation!), but before going to the trouble, would like to try to gauge interest. 4)  Is anyone aware of any other pages, etc. that deal with West Virginia fishing.  I have spent a lot of time on Yahoo, et al with no results. 5)  If anyone has info on guides & lodging in WV, I would also be interested in that. Thanks, Keith Comstock

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2) Are there any members who live or fish WV regularly that might like to provide info about WV FFing to fellow members of this newsgroup? 3) Is there interest in seeing a West Virginia FFing Web Page?  I have the technical skills to put it up(at my cost-this is no solicitation!), but before going to the trouble, would like to try to gauge interest.

Hi Keith, I live in Montana and still would be interested in a WV Web Page. Keep us posted on your progress. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Does anyone know the web address for the West Virginia Trout Unlimited page? Thanks in advance for any help

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The address for the West Virginia Council of Trout Unlimited and our fantastically good web page (for a non-profit) is: http://members.aol.com/WVTU/wvtu.html I hope this helps. PS- I am the currrent pres of the Cherrry River Chapter.  We’ve been bad and don’t have our own page yet. Keith Comstock Cranberry Wilderness Outfitters web – http://www.wvoutfitters.com

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I think you can  get the WVTU link from the TU homepage.   John W. Kramer                           Clearwater Outfitters                   WE ENDORSE CATCH AND RELEASE (717) 938-3423

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Question:

says… Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. Hence, your statement about his credibility is your own misguided fallacy.

I figure that’s mostly Powseland’s doing.  I’ve been around this board for a while and he never came out and said he supported anything PeTA advocates that I remember.  Jim probably sees a  PeTA member behind every rock. Like you, I found his general slant to be contrary to their agenda.  Go figure. Things are a little dull with Tim absent. </c

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I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. Tim admits to a love for animals….I have no problem with that. Do you have a problem with it? This all started with a c&r vs. c&k bs debate. Tim kills for his table….he’s not the first nor will he be the last. If you choose to release, good for you. If Tim kills, good for him as long as it is done legally. He claims to fish legally. I choose to do both this year. Last year I caught and released well over 1,000 trout and intentionally killed 0. I’m sure some later died from their "experience" with my fly. If you subscribe to the 15% mortality figure that is bandied about, than over 150 fish died for the sake of my  selfish pleasure. This year I plan on enjoying some on my table and to slow down on the quantity c&r game. I know this decision will actually let more trout live….go figure…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. Yes you missed it. I don’t have the time to dig it out of Deja News. Why don’t you? I would appreciate it greatly. To help you out, he admitted to it just before he left r.o.f.f. BTW, Moe Skeeter is alive and well in other newsgroups. Go to In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. I suspect he once fished but gave it up years ago. He nows uses his past experience to dupe real anglers like yourself. I believe I found the article you are referring to, I’ll paste it below… For the record, it doesn’t say he is a PETA supporter, but that he is an animal rights supporter.  I personally don’t believe that he has ulterior motives, I think he is doing what he believes to be best.  It’s just that he thinks that what he believes is the only correct belief and what anyone else believes is completely wrong and is disgracing a fish and fly-fishing.   Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder if Tim, Muskie, and Vandenman are the same person?  :-)  I don’t know if I’d be more frightened to find out they were the same person or three different people.  :-O Later,     – Ken — Not speaking for Intel rec.outdoors.fishing .fly) Newsgroups:   rec.outdoors.fishing.fly No…if it wasn’t for the mellowness brought on by an occasional good homebrew, I’d be much worse.  Beleive me. On second thought, I agree with you. You do seem to have a lot of hate, anger and fear, which is quite common in AR-supporters. That’s because you piss us both off…<g… That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter.  What wildlife love among us is not ? There are some things that are wrong…like the guy that buried those puppies alive…we need AR laws so that we can prosecute bastards like that.  I have simply drawn the line and "Pure C&R fishing" happens to live on that side of the line which includes other ‘pure sport’ hunting and fishing such as Trophy Big Game Hunting and Prarie Dog shoots. We should not kill, maim, harass or cause undue stress to wild animals…unless we plan to eat them or otherwise use them…which is clearly covered as acceptible. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

– The Blue Ridge Book Gallery | We are located 8 miles south of Boone on Rt. 1 Box 975-23            | Hiway 105 in Foscoe in the heart of the Banner Elk, NC 28604        | beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains. Please (704) 963-5001              | visit us when you’re in the area.                             |  Thanks….Marie & Walter Winter http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter/         also on Interloc…

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Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   -Mark

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Michael K Skorey wrote Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?  

You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your on nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry . —                                                       -dnc-

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: : All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is : his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   Well, I’m not one of the ruffled one’s since I’m usually on his side, but I don’t really fish that often since moving from Colorado to the southern desert of New Mexico, so I can’t report on anything I did or learned. I’m spending more of my "leisure" computer time on horse and donkey discussions, as that’s where my interest lies for now. But this spring I *will* be heading into the Gila to catch up on catching trout. If all goes well my burro will be packing my gear  ;-) JonCook.

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<snip : learned. I’m spending more of my "leisure" computer time on horse and : donkey discussions, as that’s where my interest lies for now. But this I’m guessing you’d want to go with a 9 or 10 weight for a horse or donkey, wouldn’t you?  Do they feed on the surface? —                        http://members.tripod.com/~trunculo/index

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Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   -Mark

I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh? Peter

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says… All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure. Hmmm, I’m not sure T-Bone’s departure is temporary. After admitting that he is a PETA supporter, he pretty much blew his cover. And credibility.

Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. Hence, your statement about his credibility is your own misguided fallacy.

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: : I’m guessing you’d want to go with a 9 or 10 weight for a horse or : donkey, wouldn’t you? Heck even an 8 is sufficient, but you have to go back to fiberglass, because the fast-action graphite stings too much when you whack ‘em. JonCook.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did I miss something? I don’t recall him admitting to be a PETA supporter/member. Yes you missed it. I don’t have the time to dig it out of Deja News. Why don’t you? I would appreciate it greatly. To help you out, he admitted to it just before he left r.o.f.f. BTW, Moe Skeeter is alive and well in other newsgroups. Go to In fact, his fishing activities, be they what they may, are in direct conflict with the PETA agenda of outlawing *ALL* fishing. I suspect he once fished but gave it up years ago. He nows uses his past experience to dupe real anglers like yourself.

I believe I found the article you are referring to, I’ll paste it below… For the record, it doesn’t say he is a PETA supporter, but that he is an animal rights supporter.  I personally don’t believe that he has ulterior motives, I think he is doing what he believes to be best.  It’s just that he thinks that what he believes is the only correct belief and what anyone else believes is completely wrong and is disgracing a fish and fly-fishing.   Is it just me, or does anyone else wonder if Tim, Muskie, and Vandenman are the same person?  :-)  I don’t know if I’d be more frightened to find out they were the same person or three different people.  :-O Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for Intel rec.outdoors.fishing .fly) Newsgroups:   rec.outdoors.fishing.fly No…if it wasn’t for the mellowness brought on by an occasional good homebrew, I’d be much worse.  Beleive me. On second thought, I agree with you. You do seem to have a lot of hate, anger and fear, which is quite common in AR-supporters.

That’s because you piss us both off…<g… That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter.  What wildlife love among us is not ? There are some things that are wrong…like the guy that buried those puppies alive…we need AR laws so that we can prosecute bastards like that.  I have simply drawn the line and "Pure C&R fishing" happens to live on that side of the line which includes other ‘pure sport’ hunting and fishing such as Trophy Big Game Hunting and Prarie Dog shoots. We should not kill, maim, harass or cause undue stress to wild animals…unless we plan to eat them or otherwise use them…which is clearly covered as acceptible. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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where I live trout season never closes  -  sort of an endless summer (just lots and lots of rain in certain months!) Peter

Moe asked me to ask you if there are any trout left?

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says… I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand?

The part where he states he is a card carrying member for PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS, or to clarify it further, PETA. You said he was a PETA member/supporter….you intentionally misled the group, hence THE BIG LIE….save your stories for the river where it is acceptable to stretch a tale.

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Hey Ralphie, I thought you had gone on sabbatical too.  

no – I’ve just been very busy … 25 days, 2 hours and 41 minutes before trout season opens, I’m not going to make.

where I live trout season never closes  -  sort of an endless summer (just lots and lots of rain in certain months!) Peter

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – yeah .. . he needed a break. But don’t ya’ think he might be lurking right now enjoying, all the ‘where’s Tim – I miss all the fascinatin’ dust ups he precipitated ‘ thinkin’ … hey they really do love me!" and preparing for a dramatic return! Then he’ll begin repeating himself all over again. Who said the LP is dead? Oh that’s just Tim – thought it was time to dust off my old 45’s. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Hey Ralphie, I thought you had gone on sabbatical too.   25 days, 2 hours and 41 minutes before trout season opens, I’m not going to make. Peter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. After I posted something, I enjoyed sitting back and waiting for the novel way Tim would string curses together, to describe it and me. But it was time for him to take a rest as he was begining to repeat himself. Peter

yeah .. . he needed a break. But don’t ya’ think he might be lurking right now enjoying, all the ‘where’s Tim – I miss all the fascinatin’ dust ups he precipitated ‘ thinkin’ … hey they really do love me!" and preparing for a dramatic return! Then he’ll begin repeating himself all over again. Who said the LP is dead? Oh that’s just Tim – thought it was time to dust off my old 45’s. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, I’ve avoided responding to Jim P. for years now, but I see it’s about time… : So he says. Actually, I think it is just a lie. Timbo probably was an : angler in the past but he is no longer. And that just goes to show you that you live in your own little world. I’ve personally seen him bonk fish in the last year. I’ve said it before — with all the analogies Tim has made of fishing with hunting (i.e., providing food through sport, not playing trout golf), you oughtta be his staunchest supporter…if you really are a hunter…then again, maybe you are the one with the hidden PETA agenda… JonCook.

Jon this really cracked me up! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. Discussions about which areas are hot and not, where to fish and how well we just did in this stream at this hole on this day with this fly just don’t happen in this group. I can’t blame anyone for that,  I don’t want the whole world to know the prime spots I fish either. But in times when there is very little trout fly fishing going on (such as last winter), Timbo helped to spark an ember or two. I thought the best was the thread about the ass backwards lawyer who wanted to abolish Tim from the group. (kind of looks like it worked in retrospect). "end commercial fishing on all salmonids" Cheers

After I posted something, I enjoyed sitting back and waiting for the novel way Tim would string curses together, to describe it and me. But it was time for him to take a rest as he was begining to repeat himself. Peter

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh? Peter

Face it guys, You all miss Tim with his rantings and and provocations. He has helped to keep people reading the group in times when nothing else in the group was worth reading. Discussions about which areas are hot and not, where to fish and how well we just did in this stream at this hole on this day with this fly just don’t happen in this group. I can’t blame anyone for that,  I don’t want the whole world to know the prime spots I fish either. But in times when there is very little trout fly fishing going on (such as last winter), Timbo helped to spark an ember or two.  I thought the best was the thread about the ass backwards lawyer who wanted to abolish Tim from the group. (kind of looks like it worked in retrospect). "end commercial fishing on all salmonids" Cheers

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Well, I’ve avoided responding to Jim P. for years now, but I see it’s about time… : I stand uncorrected, no mention of PETA. : : Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" Well, again, no mention of PETA… : What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand? So now you change the question from your original one… : Neither do I. It is called animal welfare. Animal *rights* is something : else entirely. If you’ve actually read the threads that have transpired, you’d know that Tim’s definition of "animal rights" is nowhere near what your definition is…so quit applying your narrow AR==PETA definition. It doesn’t fit. You all have twisted Tim’s words through the years, forcing him to make his own phrases, like "pure catch and release" — and then you assail him for it. Well, here’s the perfect example. Everyone except Jim knows that Tim did not mean the PETA agenda when he said "animal rights". : Tim kills for his table….he’s not the first nor will he be the last. : : So he says. Actually, I think it is just a lie. Timbo probably was an : angler in the past but he is no longer. And that just goes to show you that you live in your own little world. I’ve personally seen him bonk fish in the last year. You have no clue about what you write. I’ve said it before — with all the analogies Tim has made of fishing with hunting (i.e., providing food through sport, not playing trout golf), you oughtta be his staunchest supporter…if you really are a hunter…then again, maybe you are the one with the hidden PETA agenda… JonCook.

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Quote: "That said, I *am* an unabashed Animal Rights supporter. TimW" What part of "Animal Rights supporter" don’t you understand? Tim admits to a love for animals….I have no problem with that. Neither do I. It is called animal welfare. Animal *rights* is something else entirely. Do you have a problem with it? I have a problem with AR, not AW.

I USED to think there wasn’t any difference between Animal Rights and animal welfare. However, I’ve learned that when rights are given to animals, instead of animal welfare which protects them with laws requiring humane treatment, a whole nasty can of worms is opened up. It seems like a subtle difference but think of the consequences of assigning rights to animals.  A few to start: no eating of animal flesh, no pets or domesticated animals, no leather, no milk, ice cream or cheese, no animal research, etc. Willi

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh?

Peter:  Good observation, at least because it agrees with mine!  That is, I have also noticed the emergence of some new posters since the C&R/C&K threads have died away.  In any event, you have to give Timbo credit for this – even his absence can provoke controversy, as well as the longest thread here in weeks. Mark Faulkner

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I didn’t find the absence of the regulars as intriguing as the sudden emergence of a lot of new (or occasional) posters. He certainly stokes the fires of debate in ROFF, but the heat seems also to keep many away.  An interesting trade-off, eh?

That kind of "debate" does keep people away.  I checked out this newsgroup about three years ago and quickly decided it wasn’t what I wanted to read every day.   I think it’s a lot friendlier now, not that Tim was ever unfriendly to me… on the contrary, actually; he e-mailed me answers to some of my questions and was quite encouraging. Ironically, it’s messages like this one I’m typing that I don’t want to see, so I’m done typing now!  I want to read about Fly Fishing!   Leave the debating to the after-fishing pub visits. Bob Scott

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Dave Tatosian wrote    "FiddleAway" wrote You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your o[w]n nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry .

Sorry ta ruffle your feathers, ol’ fart! …  8-) —                                                       -dnc-

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From the Deep South New Zealand

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Michael K Skorey wrote Just a random thought here, but does it take T-BONE’S endless rantings and ravings to prompt some of you regulars (you know who you are) to post?? All of you have been curiously quiet since his temporary departure.  Is his nonsense all it takes to ruffle your feathers?   You can find out whether your hypothesis is true by simply stating of your o[w]n nonsense. Just make sure you fire it up with equal parts of controversy, arrogance and curmudgeonry .

HEY! Leave us curmudgeons out of this. Walker couldn’t qualify as a curmudgeon on a bet! /dave (Charter Member of CU – "Curmudgeons Unlimited")

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Question:

I`m going for a week to Nahville Tenn. and Want to Know of any Flyfishing for central Tenn. L.J.`s Eastrn web site is great but its 3 hours from where I will be based.  Any help would be welcome…Tight Lines…Trouter1

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I`m going for a week to Nahville Tenn. and Want to Know of any Flyfishing for central Tenn. L.J.`s Eastrn web site is great but its 3 hours from where I will be based.  Any help would be welcome…Tight Lines…Trouter1

Wasn’t last years TU annual meeting in Nashville?  I think there are some great tailwater opportunities in the area… — Chris Schmelzer, NREMT-P Duluth, Minnesota

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Question:

I’m thinking about trying to make solid bodied baits, like crankbaits, poppers, etc or maybe a rod or two  for something to do during the winter. Can anyone recommend a book on the subjects? I’ve looked around the bookstores and library, but haven’t found anything. If anybody has any exprerience in it, I’d like to know how big of a project it is.  Any leads to sources of materials would also be appreciated. Maybe I could wire a dremmel tool to my extra serial port and do CAD/CAM <g (Yea, right) Anyway, any ideas are appreciated. catch u later, John

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Cant help you there!

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Boyd Pfeiffer has a nice book TACKLE CRAFTS.  We’ve a good fly tie book in our magazine, and should have articles on rod rolling and lure making.  If we don’t now, and I’ll look, I’ll make sure we get them soon. — ** Louis Bignami, Publisher         http://www.finefishing.com Fine Fishing Internet Magazine                "largest fishing mag on the Net" **

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 You might want to give Jann’s a yell, they will send you a catalog full of items like you are after, (No, no M-Baits , but most  Good luck, —     **** Mike Muncy’s ****           "M-Baits"  "Handcrafted Cedar Crankbaits"     **** M-Baits Web Page **** http://www.fishingworld.com/M-Baits/

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As an alternative winter activity to tying flies, I occasionally whittle on cork to fashion largish poppers for bass. I use wine corks that I’ve pulled with a special opener (it has metal or bamboo slats that slide between the cork and bottle neck) so they lack a hole down the middle. After fashioning a body, be it slider or noise maker, I epoxy in an appropriate sized hook rigged normal or keel style. Paint the body something outlandish and tie in a few feathers and it’s ready to go. Make sure you use a hefty rod with these babies since they have *a lot* of air resistance. Haven’t caught an ear yet, though 8). Ron

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Question:

Hi I need some help.  Does anyone know where i can find some flyfishing clip art?  I neeed it for our TU newsletter.  Please e-mail me at Thanks for the help. Jamie Hart

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I need some help.  Does anyone know where i can find some flyfishing clip art?  I neeed it for our TU newsletter.  Please e-mail me at

I need same type of info.  I e-mailed this type of request to TU national over a month ago and haven’t heard anything from them. Please post a reply to the Newsgroup. Tight Lines, Gerry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I need some help.  Does anyone know where i can find some flyfishing clip art?  I neeed it for our TU newsletter.  Please e-mail me at Thanks for the help. Jamie Hart  Get a life!!!!

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