Question:

I am venturing into Vail in a week for vacation, fly fishing as well as shooting the Colorado wild ……Am amateur shooter,  I will shoot mainly around that area and the Rocky Mtn NP area….the elk are rutting and have come down from the high country as well as moose…. but mainly at dusk are the typical time schedules they follow although many can be shot in full daylight across meadows, you just cant predict nature…… with this type of low  light, I am wondering what film speed for such shots that I wish to blow up with out much grain showing….. Minolta HTsi +……TOKINA 28-105 …1:35-4.5 and Sigma 70-210 1:45-5.6……tripod…..and Jeep XJ Thanks All: Phil

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I would use a 270 winchester with a 6X scope. You could go for a 7×57, but limit the shots to broadside and 300 yards tops. John O.

Response:

Yes and not when he is standin the water….   : )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would use a 270 winchester with a 6X scope. You could go for a 7×57, but limit the shots to broadside and 300 yards tops. John O.

Response:

<< I would use a 270 winchester with a 6X scope. You could go for a 7×57, but limit the shots to broadside and 300 yards tops. As soon as I saw the thread header I figured it wouldn’t be long before someone recommended a caliber or a particular rifle but I must admit this was faster than I imagined . . .

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    You are going to need a fast car,  those guys are not real friendly — Dia ’s Muire duit Joe M

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I know this is off topic but will a 270 really stop an Elk?  I’ve never hunted Elk but I’ve seen them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes and not when he is standin the water….   : ) I would use a 270 winchester with a 6X scope. You could go for a 7×57, but limit the shots to broadside and 300 yards tops. John O.

Response:

After the shot from the 270, you will need something to haul him in. Forget the car. Eric Miller

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     You are going to need a fast car,  those guys are not real friendly — Dia ’s Muire duit Joe M

Response:

Film?  All speed you can get! With a f/5.6 lens in low light you’ll need ISO 800-1600 to get any decent shutter speed.  At that speed almost anything will do – Fuji or Kodak. But with your relatively short lenses, you have a very small chance to approach an elk in the wild…400-500 mm glass is more suitable, although once an Elk run just past me in RMNP while I stood like a dolt with a 400 mm lens… Perhaps you can get some decent pics from the road on the meadows in the RM Park, but it’s getting too late for that.  Anyway, if you wish to try, use the Estes Park Entrance (a rather long rode from Vail – back over the pass, the Eisenhower tunnel, Boulder to Estes Park. – 150+ miles each way.) Or you can try the Grand Lake area – much closer, go in the direction of Winter Park, but there may be no way to drive far into the Park through the west entrance as Trail Ridge Road closes around mid-October. (Try http://www.coloradoguide.com/rmnp/frame1.htm   for more info.) In any event, Grand Lake is very picturesque. Michael

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am venturing into Vail in a week for vacation, fly fishing as well as shooting the Colorado wild ……Am amateur shooter,  I will shoot mainly around that area and the Rocky Mtn NP area….the elk are rutting and have come down from the high country as well as moose…. but mainly at dusk are the typical time schedules they follow although many can be shot in full daylight across meadows, you just cant predict nature…… with this type of low  light, I am wondering what film speed for such shots that I wish to blow up with out much grain showing….. Minolta HTsi +……TOKINA 28-105 …1:35-4.5 and Sigma 70-210 1:45-5.6……tripod…..and Jeep XJ Thanks All: Phil

Response:

I would use a 270 winchester with a 6X scope. You could go for a 7×57, but limit the shots to broadside and 300 yards tops.

Model 70 Winchester in .300 or .338 WinMag and 3.5×10 Nikon scope.  Then you can get really close to the elk for photos.  (Fuji Superia 400 will hold up to some decent enlargement.  It’s my favorite fast print film, although I still haven’t tried the new Kodak stuff….) Good shooting, Bob Scott

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150 heavy bullet, good placement, dead in their tracks. John O.

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@aol.com says… I would use a 270 winchester with a 6X scope. You could go for a 7×57, but limit the shots to broadside and 300 yards tops. John O.

        Wow the hipocracy of it, one minute your taking pictures of it the next you want to kill it. — James Grove http://www.jamesgrove.co.uk

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Wow the hipocracy of it, one minute your taking pictures of it the next you want to kill it.

Can’t you eat elk?

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   Wow the hipocracy of it, one minute your taking pictures of it the next you want to kill it.

Twit, you shoot it first, then come the photos. John O.

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Shooting any kind of deer requires a long lens (in at least the 400mm range generally). Try to borrow or rent a lens like this and also try to get a 1.4x teleconverter (to use with the long lens as well as your Sigma). Forget the slow films, you need speed. An ASA100 film may have smaller grain but that will do you no good if the elk moves while using a long shutter speed. I would not hesitate to use a film of at least 400ASA to get the fastest shutter speed as possible in the low light conditions. You may also be dealing with wind as the air begins to warm, which will require the fast film and shutter cable, even while on the tripod. If you find you need even more speed, push the roll one stop. If you desire a close up shot, a Remington bolt with 30/06 180gr and Swarovski scope will get you in range (if you don’t flinch or get buck fever). You’ll then be able to use an ASA25 with tripod mounted camera. :~) Richard

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am venturing into Vail in a week for vacation, fly fishing as well as shooting the Colorado wild ……Am amateur shooter,  I will shoot mainly around that area and the Rocky Mtn NP area….the elk are rutting and have come down from the high country as well as moose…. but mainly at dusk are the typical time schedules they follow although many can be shot in full daylight across meadows, you just cant predict nature…… with this type of low  light, I am wondering what film speed for such shots that I wish to blow up with out much grain showing….. Minolta HTsi +……TOKINA 28-105 …1:35-4.5 and Sigma 70-210 1:45-5.6……tripod…..and Jeep XJ Thanks All: Phil

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Question:

Maybe a foolish question but i wonder if there are river maps available? The US Corps of Engineers publishes inexpensive river charts for the navigable river systems under their control. Most areas also have cruising guides available. — Skipper

Depending upon which Corps of Engineers Region you’re in you can get maps from http://www.usace.army.mil/         —Hutch * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hello, I live on Crooked River in SE Georgia. I found a map (of sorts) at a Flyfishing shop. It isn’t "exact" and at least in the case of this river, it changes somewhat because of the flow of the river – we have tides because of being so close to the ocean – and there is continual changes in sand bars, etc. But the chart is certainly better than nothing and gives good views of major inlets, marshes, etc. So you might want to check out some Flyfishing shops in your area. Regards, liz Maybe a foolish question but i wonder if there are river maps available? The US Corps of Engineers publishes inexpensive river charts for the navigable river systems under their control. Most areas also have cruising guides available. — Skipper

Before you buy.

Response:

Maybe a foolish question but i wonder if there are river maps available?

The US Corps of Engineers publishes inexpensive river charts for the navigable river systems under their control. Most areas also have cruising guides available. — Skipper

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Question:

Thanks for all of the comments all of you sent me on the IIE vs II.  I just have one other question: How rugged is the Elan?  I plan to use it when I go hiking, canoeing, camping, etc.  I saw in another thread in this group that there was some question about the durability of one of the knobs.  Has anyone had any problems with the knobs breaking?  Can it stand to be used in the great outdoors?

Buy a good Camera bag, and don’t drop it.. I load my ElanIIe on the back of my Kawasaki Ninja zx-11, for motorcycling photos (see http://pwp.starnetinc.com/mercury/biking) I have a LowePro Nova 2 and pack 2 lenses (28-105, 100-300) with all the filters, film, and a micro-tripod (a Bogen) So far, it’s been pretty rugged… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your help.  I’m very close to a decision! Aldo P.S. One of you suggested saving the money and spending it on lenses.  I currently have a Rebel G and several lenses.  I just want a better body.

Response:

I’ve only looked at the IIE once, and I don’t have a brochure handy, but I thought that what you say the salesperson said is correct.  As I recall, the camera doesn’t actually focus on what the eye is looking at, it simply uses whichever of the 3 AF points your eye is looking at (or looking closest to, perhaps).  Am I wrong? Sean, Not sure what you mean.  If the subject covered by the right zone is 60 ft away and the subject at the left zone is 10 ft away, the focal plane will be at the level of the one you look at.  So I suppose the camera does focus on a zone and not an object if that is your point.

I have the IIe and I understand his point. His point is that if, for example, the eye is looking at a far left corner, which is 30 feet away, but the left AF point happens to be resting on an object 10 feet away, you are out of luck.

Response:

Hello Aldo, The IIe is worth the price of $50 for me. It works 98% of the time for me and hence very valuable. I would hate not to have the eye control after using it for a while now. Good luck, Ann — Ann Q. Lee http://carcassi.eng.uci.edu/intropictures.htm

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The Eye control works for me all the time so I am glad that I decided to get the IIe instead of the II.  In addition the DOF preview works too.  So I believe it is low risk to spend extra < $ 100 to get this feature.  I am really confused by the other comments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … However, I have heard a number of camera store salespersons say that they didn’t like it at all, and then went on to say that the camera DOESN’T HAVE TRUE EYE-FOCUSING, it’s just which little red square you use, which should tell you that ignorant camera salespeople are with us and always will be. I’ve only looked at the IIE once, and I don’t have a brochure handy, but I thought that what you say the salesperson said is correct.  As I recall, the camera doesn’t actually focus on what the eye is looking at, it simply uses whichever of the 3 AF points your eye is looking at (or looking closest to, perhaps).  Am I wrong? That is true, but the camera actually _does_ focus using that square. This salesman tried to steer me to a Minolta camera that focusses wherever the eye looks in the viewfinder, apparently. I know that this may not have any bearing on the original poster’s question, and I certainly don’t recommend one over the other, not having any real experience with either. — Sean Streiff — "Outside of that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" If you have nothing else to do, check my photo page at http://www.enteract.com/~ckross

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … However, I have heard a number of camera store salespersons say that they didn’t like it at all, and then went on to say that the camera DOESN’T HAVE TRUE EYE-FOCUSING, it’s just which little red square you use, which should tell you that ignorant camera salespeople are with us and always will be. I’ve only looked at the IIE once, and I don’t have a brochure handy, but I thought that what you say the salesperson said is correct.  As I recall, the camera doesn’t actually focus on what the eye is looking at, it simply uses whichever of the 3 AF points your eye is looking at (or looking closest to, perhaps).  Am I wrong?

That is true, but the camera actually _does_ focus using that square. This salesman tried to steer me to a Minolta camera that focusses wherever the eye looks in the viewfinder, apparently. I know that this may not have any bearing on the original poster’s question, and I certainly don’t recommend one over the other, not having any real experience with either. — Sean Streiff

– "Outside of that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" If you have nothing else to do, check my photo page at http://www.enteract.com/~ckross

Response:

I’ve only looked at the IIE once, and I don’t have a brochure handy, but I thought that what you say the salesperson said is correct.  As I recall, the camera doesn’t actually focus on what the eye is looking at, it simply uses whichever of the 3 AF points your eye is looking at (or looking closest to, perhaps).  Am I wrong?

Sean, Not sure what you mean.  If the subject covered by the right zone is 60 ft away and the subject at the left zone is 10 ft away, the focal plane will be at the level of the one you look at.  So I suppose the camera does focus on a zone and not an object if that is your point. However, the camera DOES in certain mode, determine exactly what the subject is.  It is called AI Servo mode, a ‘predictive’ focus mode and there are a couple of variations on the mode.  To Quote from the Magic Lantern Guide: In AI servo AF mode the shutter can fire even before the AF operation is complete.  Designed for moving subjects, the AI servo AF incorporates predictive AF.  This means that the AF sensor ‘locks’ on to the main subject, determines it’s direction and speed, and calculates where the object will be at the moment of exposure.  Predictive AF even compensates for the unavoidable split second that elapses between the time the shutter release is pressed and the moment of actual exposure, as the reflex mirror flips up and the aperture closes to its working value. End of quote.  In some lighting / film speed situations you may have a wide open aperture yielding little depth of field so this could be the difference between a soft shot and a sharp one.  The book goes on to give some techniques on how you can assist predictive focus to choose the right subject and track it more precisely.  I have not had occasion since buying the camera in December and shooting 30 rolls of film to use this feature.  I can not tell you how well it works or does not work, but the MLG writers say it’s great.  I would think that if it only works or helps half the time it would still be nice. — John Pearce Phoenix  AZ home is the right word for reply

Response:

you are correct. the ECF detects which AF point you’re looking at, i.e. your eye selects which AF point to use. i have the EOS 50E (Elan IIE) and use ECF about 95% of the time. it’s always either ECF or centre focusing point or manual focusing. i never use automatic selection. bl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … However, I have heard a number of camera store salespersons say that they didn’t like it at all, and then went on to say that the camera DOESN’T HAVE TRUE EYE-FOCUSING, it’s just which little red square you use, which should tell you that ignorant camera salespeople are with us and always will be. I’ve only looked at the IIE once, and I don’t have a brochure handy, but I thought that what you say the salesperson said is correct.  As I recall, the camera doesn’t actually focus on what the eye is looking at, it simply uses whichever of the 3 AF points your eye is looking at (or looking closest to, perhaps).  Am I wrong? I know that this may not have any bearing on the original poster’s question, and I certainly don’t recommend one over the other, not having any real experience with either. — Sean Streiff

– My reply address above has been doctored to prevent SPAMming. Please undeliverable mail message.

Response:

Hi I’m considering the Canon EOS Elan II camera, and wanted to know whether the eye-focus function of the IIE is worth it or should I stick to the Elan II.  If you have a IIE do you use the eye-focus a lot? How do you like it?  If you had to do it over again would you buy a camera with the eye-focus feature? Thanks for the help Aldo

Hi Aldo, I just wanted to speak up after watching this thread a couple of days. I am not the pro so many good minds on the group are but I felt I had something to contribute. One fellow mentioned you should buy the II and save the money for a good lens.  Well, no matter what you do you need to get a good lens for certain.  However, if you buy from a place like B&H there is only about US $50 difference in the cost and that won’t go far on a lens anyway. I bought the IIe last December thinking that the money was not such a big deal (I know, I’m lucky and I do give to charity) and I could turn it off if I did not like the ECF.  I heard many say it didn’t work for them, I heard many say you have to hold your face just right for every shot or it didn’t work.  I heard some say it didn’t work with glasses. Well, I’ve shot 30 rolls of film and would kick myself in the butt if I didn’t have it and somehow learned how useful, easy, and realiable it is.  It has worked for me in every single shot, even when I forgot about it and would have messed up the shot on my own.  It works without glasses, with glasses, with sunglasses, with my forehead up against the shoe mounted flash and my nose and mouth away from the camera body, it works when my face is perfectly positioned or not.  It works for me, it always works, and it is effortless.   I don’t know, maybe people that had trouble took calibration too seriously.  Maybe I was sloppy when I calibrated the thing so it works over a wider range of motion.  Maybe I have big eyes.  Who knows.  The thing is you won’t know until you have used one for awhile and only you know if you can afford the $50 bucks to find out.   — John Pearce Phoenix  AZ home is the right word for reply

Response:

… However, I have heard a number of camera store salespersons say that they didn’t like it at all, and then went on to say that the camera DOESN’T HAVE TRUE EYE-FOCUSING, it’s just which little red square you use, which should tell you that ignorant camera salespeople are with us and always will be.

I’ve only looked at the IIE once, and I don’t have a brochure handy, but I thought that what you say the salesperson said is correct.  As I recall, the camera doesn’t actually focus on what the eye is looking at, it simply uses whichever of the 3 AF points your eye is looking at (or looking closest to, perhaps).  Am I wrong? I know that this may not have any bearing on the original poster’s question, and I certainly don’t recommend one over the other, not having any real experience with either. — Sean Streiff

Response:

    I have owned the Elan IIe for over a year – It has survived many flyfishing trips and even a crash or two on a mountain bike – Coming from an Olympus background I was unsure of the plastic of todays camera and lens – but – so far all has worked well. I should also add that the camera with the 28 – 105 canon lens has given me some really great fast action photos that I would probably have botched with a manual focus camera – I wear glases and the eye focus only seems to ’search’ in very low light situations A Happy Canon Camper Wayne

Response:

Thanks for all of the comments all of you sent me on the IIE vs II.  I just have one other question: How rugged is the Elan?  I plan to use it when I go hiking, canoeing, camping, etc.  I saw in another thread in this group that there was some question about the durability of one of the knobs.  Has anyone had any problems with the knobs breaking?  Can it stand to be used in the great outdoors? Thanks for your help.  I’m very close to a decision! Aldo P.S. One of you suggested saving the money and spending it on lenses.  I currently have a Rebel G and several lenses.  I just want a better body.

Response:

see http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~btong/obl/photos/info for my write up on the EOS 50E (aka Elan IIE). click on "hardware". bl Hi I’m considering the Canon EOS Elan II camera, and wanted to know whether the eye-focus function of the IIE is worth it or should I stick to the Elan II.  If you have a IIE do you use the eye-focus a lot? How do you like it?  If you had to do it over again would you buy a camera with the eye-focus feature? Thanks for the help Aldo

– My reply address above has been doctored to prevent SPAMming. Please undeliverable mail message.

Response:

After doing my research and trying the Elan IIe in the store (it wasn’t calibrated correctly), I later let a store clerk talk me into getting the Elan II

Hmm funny a store clerk tried doing the same to me, fortunately I followed a similar tread a while back from the excellent folks in this group, there were a few neg’s and plenty of positives, I found that I too would appreciate a new technology that would save me having to lock focus and recompose or some other trick, so yeah I’d go for the E11e, even if it was just a gimmick I still support the advancement towards innovative and potentially useful technology. Trent

Response:

hi Aldo, i use my eye control always.the other day i picked up my sons reble g and i wasnt able to feel comfortable.(like something was missing) so long, Harry

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*I* use the eye-focus function a lot! My wife, on the other hand, seems to not understand how it’s used, so for her, I put the camera in full auto mode. But it’s a great feature when you need to compose a shot other than dead center, great for depth-of-field auto settings, and will add to the enjoyment of your camera. However, I have heard a number of camera store salespersons say that they didn’t like it at all, and then went on to say that the camera DOESN’T HAVE TRUE EYE-FOCUSING, it’s just which little red square you use, which should tell you that ignorant camera salespeople are with us and always will be. Hi I’m considering the Canon EOS Elan II camera, and wanted to know whether the eye-focus function of the IIE is worth it or should I stick to the Elan II.  If you have a IIE do you use the eye-focus a lot? How do you like it?  If you had to do it over again would you buy a camera with the eye-focus feature? Thanks for the help Aldo

– "Outside of that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" If you have nothing else to do, check my photo page at http://www.enteract.com/~ckross

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I use the IIe in both eye controlled focus and camera controlled focus.  Its nice to have the eye control when you need it.  Buy it, you can always shut it off.

Response:

Hi I’m considering the Canon EOS Elan II camera, and wanted to know whether the eye-focus function of the IIE is worth it or should I stick to the Elan II.  

Save your money for a good lens Jim Arnold Dallas, TX

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After doing my research and trying the Elan IIe in the store (it wasn’t calibrated correctly), I later let a store clerk talk me into getting the Elan II (afterall, it is just a gimmick – and I could find better things to spend the extra money on). Well, I shot one roll of film in the Elan II and knew that I had better get back to the store and exchange it for the IIe. First, while shooting in a wooded area, I could have used the Eye Focusing because the Elan II was automatically focusing on a section of trees that were closest to me, rather than the one I wanted to focus on. So, I had to manually choose the focus point. Next, when wanting to try the Depth of Field Preview, I first had to change the custom setting on the Elan II so I could use the AF Lock button to activate the Depth of Field Preview. By the end of the roll I knew I would miss the Eye Controlled Focussing – or rather, I knew how helpful it can be. Spend the extra $50 and get the Elan IIe. You will not regret it. And, if you wish to turn it off, you can. But it will always be there when you want/need it. The Eye Controlled Depth of Field Preview is worth it alone! Michael Chicago, IL

Response:

I strongly recommend getting the Eye Control Focus feature.  It is much more than a gimmick—it quickly becomes intuitive, and I think it is the natural evolution of making autofocus work as smoothly as manual focus. The ECF on the Elan IIE is better than that on the A2E, since it is bidirectional (vertical and horizontal). Richard Baltimore

Response:

Hi I’m considering the Canon EOS Elan II camera, and wanted to know whether the eye-focus function of the IIE is worth it or should I stick to the Elan II.  If you have a IIE do you use the eye-focus a lot? How do you like it?  If you had to do it over again would you buy a camera with the eye-focus feature? Thanks for the help Aldo

Response:

Question:

For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6"  6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started.  What should an 11 year old be able to handle?  Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here.  BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it.

When I was growing up without a father my next-door neighbor gave me flyfishing tackle and took me fishing. I’ll never forget him. You’ll be doing a very good deed. BTW, do you think maybe his mother has some additional reason for coming to the meeting?

Response:

Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son.  Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -BTW, do you think maybe his mother has some additional reason for coming to the meeting?

Response:

Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son.  Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box.

Sounds like she may have come to the right place anyway. — Charlie…

Response:

I attended the inaugural meeting of a new fly fishing club here in Fredericksburg VA last Wednesday night.  About 15 guys my age showed up, talked fly fishing and passed around photos of a bunch of 8 to 10 LB. stripers caught in the Rappahannock right under Rt. 1.  Also joining the group was a single mom (thirty something and very attractive).  She came to learn about fly fishing so she could teach her 11 year old son and take him fishing.  She seemed to think fly fishing was the most wholesome sport she could think of (no offense but she hasn’t met this group).

        for a shot at mom, i’ll put up my 8′ 2wt thomas&thomas. wayno the relentless

Response:

Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son.  Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box. Wayne

        hold on man; you can’t forget who you are…you are a wayne, dammit, and that *stands* for something in this crazy world of ours. just walk over to her, look her in the eyes, and say:  "my name is wayne.  what color mercedes would you like to have?"         she’ll be putty in your hands. wayno, who knows what he’s talkin about, i mean!

Response:

My son is seven and he likes his KidStart system. It’s an 8 ft two piece rod with a 6/7 line. System comes with the backing, fly line, leader, and the case. The reel that comes with, is plastic. Nice for entry level anglers.

Response:

Stephen, From her demeanor, words, and actions, I believe she had a singular interest in the group; her son.  Besides, if your looking for a new pair of track shoes you don’t go looking in the brogan box.

NEVER underestimate the subtlety of a woman. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

OK Wayno, I’ll bet it’ll be dark blue or black with leather upholstery, looks better on a blonde.  Sorry George, I don’t think this gal has ever had to sleep in a tent! Wayne the damsel in distress rescuer To fish is human…to release divine. Now how did Wayno know the meeting is held a block away from the Mercedes/Volvo dealer? Could it be he keeps a little black book with the names of all the Mercedes dealers? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hold on man; you can’t forget who you are…you are a wayne, dammit, and that *stands* for something in this crazy world of ours. just walk over to her, look her in the eyes, and say:  "my name is wayne.  what color mercedes would you like to have?" she’ll be putty in your hands. wayno, who knows what he’s talkin about, i mean!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I attended the inaugural meeting of a new fly fishing club here in Fredericksburg VA last Wednesday night.  About 15 guys my age showed up, talked fly fishing and passed around photos of a bunch of 8 to 10 LB. stripers caught in the Rappahannock right under Rt. 1.  Also joining the group was a single mom (thirty something and very attractive).  She came to learn about fly fishing so she could teach her 11 year old son and take him fishing.  She seemed to think fly fishing was the most wholesome sport she could think of (no offense but she hasn’t met this group). For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6"  6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started.  What should an 11 year old be able to handle?  Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here.  BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

   Check out "the poor mans fly fishing catalog" Cabela’s. Two of the short and extremely easy to cast. They longer stiffer rods are great if you are well coordinated, hefty, and expierienced. 11 year olds come in all sizes and muscularity but generally are of the smallish akward type and need all the help they can get from the rod.                                                              John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl.

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I agree with Charlie. Physically he should be able to handle it. But I wouldn’t just give it without some ritual. Id make him earn it like this: Tell him and mom that you have this outfit, you think it might fit him but you wonder if he can handle a "man’s" outfit. Suggest a session with Mom and son at a park pond. She watches (the woman is for another time). Show him how to cast. Whatever happens, say it looks like he can handle a "man’s" outfit ( or at least "grow" into it) and give it. Show him how to carry it, break it down, and carefully put in sock etc. I hope Im not being too patronizing.  You are doing a good thing. This kid is not living with a dad so he’s going to have too handle a lot more than a "man’s outfit" on his own, but you can create with this one generous act a positive initiation ritual and talisman of manhood. Our Native American brothers understand this stuff real well.  Good luck , your message says you have the right heart for this. Dave

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I attended the inaugural meeting of a new fly fishing club here in Fredericksburg VA last Wednesday night.  About 15 guys my age showed up, talked fly fishing and passed around photos of a bunch of 8 to 10 LB. stripers caught in the Rappahannock right under Rt. 1.  Also joining the group was a single mom (thirty something and very attractive).  She came to learn about fly fishing so she could teach her 11 year old son and take him fishing.  She seemed to think fly fishing was the most wholesome sport she could think of (no offense but she hasn’t met this group). For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6"  6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started.  What should an 11 year old be able to handle?  Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here.  BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

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For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6"  6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started.  What should an 11 year old be able to handle?  Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here.  BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it.

I think a 6wt would make a good all around starter set. — Charlie…

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I think that he should easily beable to use that rod…My 8year old uses an 6 1/2 foot 4wt and does very well with it. Jon

Clipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6"  6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started.  What should an 11 year old be able to handle?  Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here.  BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

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For this 11 year old I would certainly be willing to give up my 8′ 6" 6 wt. Cortland Fairplay beginner’s outfit to get him started.  What should an 11 year old be able to handle?  Redington and others make great starting outfits but I don’t think much money is available here.  BTW, my Cortland outfit will be offered free if you guys think he can handle it. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.

Wayne: My sons (11 through 14) all handle a 8.5′ 5 wt. just fine.  I got them a 7.5′ 3wt. Cabella outfit for Christmas but I wonder if the 3 wt. might be a little light for their casting ability.  I’ll find out in a couple of months!  I think that 11 year old will do very well with your 6 wt. outfit as long as he gets some good instruction. –Stan

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Question:

Has anyone fished the Resica Falls section lately?  How are the conditions?

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soupy…  An occasional fish at first and last light, or so I’m told.  This isn’t really a trout stream imho.  But it sure is purty…:)

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I will be visiting Bushkills PA next week and was looking for any suggestions about where to go flyfishing while there (a good way to find some quality time to "escape" from the family reunion!) I am happy with either trout or bass waters, might bring my canoe if it seems worth it. Ideally, a stream or river with trout would be nice. Thanks Steve

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Question:

Hi there!  With flyfishing season coming up, I’m looking for a #4 weight rod no more than 9 feet long.  A good quality rod such as Fenwick,Sage, Scientific angler would do.  Willing to pay up to $200 cdn Let me know if you have one to sell thanks! Mike

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  Hi, I just bought a nice little 4wt loomis GL2, 7.5ft. Beautifull rod, well finished with a nice med action. The best part was it only set me back $140 cdn. Great rod at a great price!

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Question:

I am looking for a literary agent to represent a book that I am writing for publication.  Any suggestions?  Thanks a bunch.  I never forget those who help me. — Flyfish NC                                                   Gordon Churchill                                        http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/3853                                                                     Dragon’s Hope Publishing Heidi Dragon Churchill                                               Business cards, ad design, forms and all manner of desktop publishing.      

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I have not failed  I am a writter of peotry.  Need publishcation

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have not failed I have not failedDragon’s Hope Publishing I have not failedHeidi Dragon Churchill                                               I have not failedBusiness cards, ad design, forms and all manner of desktop publishing.       I have not failed                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

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[snip] : I guess they figure the writing chores should be left lot the giants of : the industry, like Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh.  <sigh I feel for ya.  But writers like Stern aren’t the really sad cases.  You may not like him, but he has talent.  You try talking off the top of your head every day and maintaining the attention of a million listeners.  I have a hard time some days with 200 in a classroom, and they pay to be there.  Stern can tell a story. The real sad ones are the cases like this woman bomber pilot recently resigned from the Air Force.  She disobeys a direct order from her superior and gets a large advance to write a book about it.  Shameless. The author, the publisher and the editor. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I am looking for a literary agent to represent a book that I am writing for publication.  Any suggestions?  Thanks a bunch.  I never forget those who help me. — Flyfish NC Gordon Churchill                                        http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/3853

Gordon, I’ve been trying to get an agent to read my novel "Blue Ice" for over a year.  I’ve got 75 rejections, and only a handful (5) even accepted the first 25 manuscript pages.  I have no idea how many of those actually even read the first page. I guess they figure the writing chores should be left lot the giants of the industry, like Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh.  <sigh As a musician friend frequently reminds me that all I need to do is get up in that bell tower with my deer rifle, and I’ll have a book deal within 48 hours.   Yes, I’m cynical.  I’m probably also paranoid.  But then, just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they aren’t all out to get you. — Mark Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-  Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.  Are you just using a regular pull scales or what?  And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records".  MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc.  This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies.  Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong.  I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures.  Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch.  Etc, etc.  But I find serious disagreement with your percentages.  Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function.  For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better".  I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like.  Just need a mailing address Ralph.   Mr. G.

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Hi George-  Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing. . .  It means consistant breaking

or parting percentages every time.    I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers.   Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  

   That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.

Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

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If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.

Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…

For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you).   No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.

Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio

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Hi Rick-   The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.   -Ralph

Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/                            /v/

– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.

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  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Great .sig file Anglerboy !.  You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.

I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.

Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio

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If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer

As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate.  If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   (much blather snipped)   Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test   that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would   bother with such a product streamside.   Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t   imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside   or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.   Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute   in the realms of flesh and sun   breaks down more pain than ages   of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"

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Hi Jon-   We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip.    When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity.    The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests.    -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

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  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

Response:

Hi Rick-    The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

RALPH, you are not a dipshit.  Christ.  Loosen up.  What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth.  Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit.  What I say is based on sound facts.  If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect.  As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph.  I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL.  Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this.  You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break.  This comes with experience.  It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known.  A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc.  However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do.  Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing.  I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls.  The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT!  The knots aren’t burnt.  The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  This means what?  It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before.  A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception.  This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing.  Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters.  In fact, none of us do.  The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests.  I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece?  I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.  And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no.  I don’t know everything.  I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either.  I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone.  But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread.  I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT:  I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima.  I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it.  No Sir.  Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons.  When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. Everyone.

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If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,

While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    (much blather snipped)     Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test     that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would     bother with such a product streamside.    Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t    imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside    or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.    Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.  It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.

Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

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(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.

Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

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..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.

…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

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  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G.

Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%.  The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%.  The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%.  These results I’ve seen repeatedly.  These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

But of course.  This is the one I tie best.  Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator!  :-)   -Ralph

Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS:  ’Love your book, Ralph.  It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers.  Keep up the good work.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?

Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points.  I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.

Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know.  Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

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Question:

This should be another good year for the American Shad.  They migrate up the rivers in the spring, along with the Stripers,  to spawn.  They were imported from the east coast in the late 1800’s, along with the Striped Bass.  Both species really took off and became major fisheries in the North West.  The Sacramento river and it tributaries, the American, Feather and Yuba rivers, have good runs if they have adequate water flows.  The mouth of the American river and the mouth of the Feather river are good early( April/May ) spots ( from a boat )for shad and stripers. As the season progresses ( May/June ), they move up the rivers, were you can wade and fly fish for them quite successfully.  They hold in tight schools like salmon, and average 2 to 3 pounds with tops around  7 pounds. If you want to do something new and exciting,  I recommend getting a guide with a boat and go have a ball.  Try these year-round, full-time, independent guides: 916/331-2001. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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How about the Sacramento or Klamath for Shad? What time of year would you recommend? Thanks

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How about the Sacramento or Klamath for Shad? What time of year would you recommend? Thanks

   The Sacramento drainage will start to kick in in a few weeks. Look for the article on Sacramento shad in the upcoming issue of Flyfishing the West magazine. Start calling Keine’s Fly shop or Fly Fishing Specialties in a couple of weeks, they’re usually on top of whats going on in the valley.    Ralph —

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If you want to do something new and exciting,  I recommend getting a guide with a boat and go have a ball.  Try these year-round, full-time, independent guides: @ 916/331-2001.

I can personally recommend Bob Sparre.  He runs the Yuba mostly, and knows it well.  Offers raft trips for 4-6 fishermen.  Raft is for access only. Shad fishing is wading gravel bars.  Price is reasonable, about $80 a head for a full day I think.   John Woodling Sacramento, CA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This should be another good year for the American Shad.  They migrate up the rivers in the spring, along with the Stripers,  to spawn.  They were imported from the east coast in the late 1800’s, along with the Striped Bass.  Both species really took off and became major fisheries in the North West.  The Sacramento river and it tributaries, the American, Feather and Yuba rivers, have good runs if they have adequate water flows.  The mouth of the American river and the mouth of the Feather river are good early( April/May ) spots ( from a boat )for shad and stripers. As the season progresses ( May/June ), they move up the rivers, were you can wade and fly fish for them quite successfully.  They hold in tight schools like salmon, and average 2 to 3 pounds with tops around  7 pounds. If you want to do something new and exciting,  I recommend getting a guide with a boat and go have a ball.  Try these year-round, full-time, independent guides: 916/331-2001. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

   You might also check out the article "California Shad" in the newest issue of Flyfishing the West magazine (I think it’ll be on the shelves within a week).    -Ralph —

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Question:

I have the opportunity to take a "Flyfishing Seminar" in southern Mississippi with Mel Kreiger.  Since ther is little or no freshwater fishing nearby (at least this time of year), I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help. The problem is the $$$.  They want $175 for each one day session.  The money is donated to a very good cause (the Crosby Arboretum), but it’s still half the cost of a new rod… Anybody out there had any experinece with Mel’s casting classes?  Is it likely to be worth the money? Please let me know ASAP as the price goes up to $225 on the first (yikes, that’s tomorrow…) Many thanks, Bob McAnulty

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to take a "Flyfishing Seminar" in southern Mississippi with Mel Kreiger.  Since ther is little or no freshwater fishing nearby (at least this time of year), I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help. The problem is the $$$.  They want $175 for each one day session. The money is donated to a very good cause (the Crosby Arboretum), but it’s still half the cost of a new rod… Anybody out there had any experinece with Mel’s casting classes?  Is it likely to be worth the money?

I had the opportunity to take a Mel Krieger seminar for free (through Golden  West Women Flyfishers in S.F.), where Mel’s wife, Fanny, is a member.   Although there were a lot of people, and little personalized attention from Mel, it was still very useful (and I am a pretty good caster already).  If you can spend the money, I think Mel Krieger is a great casting instructor.  If you can’t afford the class, at least buy the  "Essence of Flycasting Video."  I like to just review it every  once in a while to keep my casting sharp.   If you are a novice, with some casting experience, I think Mel will  have you throwing a tight loop and double-hauling by the end of the day. John

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For my money Mel is the best casting instructor anywhere.  I have known him for 20 years and have seen him teach many times.  He even taught me.  I still try to find time to spend with him to break the bad habits I pick up along the way.  He has written several books and has at least two videos.

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I honestly cannot attest to Mel’s "live" presentation, but I will say that I learned a lot from his videotapes on casting. The problem, as I see it, with live seminars and to a certain extent, videos, is that each "master" has his own style of casting. There is no one way to cast, and learning other casting styles after a basic motion is mastered is much easier than trying to learn from a "Master." I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the seminar; and you can make a worthwhile contribution to the Crosby Arberitum as an added – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the

seminar. I disagree.  Buy the Essence of Flycasting tape, rather than Essence II.   Essence has the basics, plus some advanced material.  Essence II has some things that may not be useful to the mainstream (spey casting, etc.). This advice only applies if you’re going to buy one tape.  Best bet is to buy them both.

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I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help.

Yes it is and he is superb.                           Dan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem, as I see it, with live seminars and to a certain extent, videos, is that each "master" has his own style of casting. There is no one way to cast, and learning other casting styles after a basic motion is mastered is much easier than trying to learn from a "Master." I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the seminar; and you can make a worthwhile contribution to the Crosby Arberitum as an added

Regardless how you do it, if you move the rod correctly you will get a good cast.   However, the "style" that Mel teaches is efficient, accurate and repeatable all day long without causing soreness or injury.  I espouse this style of casting as I have found it the best for the reasons just stated.  His tapes are superb, however I would recommend "Essence Of FlyCasting" as the best for a novice, and Essence 2 for tournament style casting and 2 handed rod casting. NEITHER of the tapes is a substitute for instruction from the man!!  A competent instructor is far superior to any tape out there because his instruction is personalized to your needs. Price is the difference here.                                                           Dan

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