Question:

Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes.

Sorry, that was an inside joke.   Which leads me to another tip if you’re a usenet newbie:  http://groups.google.com is an archive of past posts from this & other newsgroups going back several years.   It’s not a bad idea to do a search there before posting a question here (or anywhere).   Chances are good it’s been asked before & answered 20 different ways; but you’re always free to be #21.   Just for fun, you could do a search on the M word (it was the subject of some spirited discussion a while back). HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes.

Benign?  BENIGN??!!  Why you littl…….sputter…….wheeze….if I eve…..aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Wolfgang deep breaths….deep breaths….

Response:

Thanks Guys, Found http://www.faqs.org/usenet/ is a good source of Usenet News Netiquette and Sundry.  Thanks to your suggestions. Goofed again thinking I knew how to post a link to a picture of a trout I caught with whirling disease, works…but to wrong photo.  Not sure if I can tell if I got the new posts cancelled which I attempted immediately.  Got Lots of studying before I post to other than ‘misc.test’ and such. Thanks for your patience, Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  With the message you want to cancel selected, go to the tab marked "message" click on it, select "cancel message" and you are done. It won’t be cancelled on all servers if it has been a while since the post was made, but unless it is reallllly a bad post don’t bother sending a cancel.

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That’s OK Scott, I’m an old fart hereabouts so I’ll say it for you…meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, Wolfie sucks meniscus thru a straw!  There, I feel better now. (seg) Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -}<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Scott

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That’s OK Scott, I’m an old fart hereabouts so I’ll say it for you…meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, meniscus, Wolfie sucks meniscus thru a straw!  There, I feel better now. (seg)

He knows where you live.  He knows where you fish.  He will bide his time.  He is patient.  He is inexorable.  He is implacable. Not Pete

Response:

Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Benign?  BENIGN??!!  Why you littl…….sputter…….wheeze….if I eve…..aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Wolfgang deep breaths….deep breaths….

– I’ve finally made my mind up about you Wolfgang.  You’re just like cancer.  Given enough time, you grow on people. Love your humor when it isn’t vicious. zoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! deep breaths . . . *sigh* (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

And, for GOD’s sake, watch out for Waldo if he’s having a bad hair day..

In the past 2+ years I’ve fished with Waldo probably 12-15 times and until he opened that shop in Morganton I wasn’t aware that he was capable of anything *but* bad hair days –Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Benign?  BENIGN??!!  Why you littl…….sputter…….wheeze….if I eve…..aaaaarrrrgggghhhh! Wolfgang deep breaths….deep breaths…. — I’ve finally made my mind up about you Wolfgang.  You’re just like cancer.  Given enough time, you grow on people. Love your humor when it isn’t vicious. zoooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! deep breaths . . . *sigh*

Took you a while.  He’s always vicious.  If it didn’t seem like it, you missed something.  Trust me. Not Pete damn, where did you guys pick this one up?

Response:

Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted?

 With the message you want to cancel selected, go to the tab marked "message" click on it, select "cancel message" and you are done. It won’t be cancelled on all servers if it has been a while since the post was made, but unless it is reallllly a bad post don’t bother sending a cancel. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Surprised that a post containing ‘<a href…etc’ was kicked back by the news server filter but it allowed attachment through if they are unacceptable. Saw that ‘alt.fan.bettie-page’ (that probably shows my age) had attachments but have no idea what ‘alt.’ means or which other allow for images besides ‘.binary.’ Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats. Help, Scott Have pic of the most beautiful moss-back brown trout I have ever seen, beyond my abilities of description…are image attachments acceptable? Newbie to newsgroups.  Figure if attachments not allowed, wont go through…as I discovered with post containing HTML link being rejected. NO!   Image attachments are *not* okay here.   You should post them to a binary ng such as alt.binary.pictures.fishing.   Then simply post here that the pix are there.   And unfortunately yes, they did come through (all 92KB of them.); but nobody with a shred of sanity would open an unsolicited attachment anyway. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Thanks rb, Stan, Tom; Got it…all except never saying the ‘m’ word.  Sounds nasty, but my dictionary says it is pretty benign as far as the English form of the word goes. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t try to sell stuff or use this forum as your personal soapbox.   Do tell us about yourself, your fishing trips, your tips & secrets.   If you make a nasty comment meant in jest, it’s not a bad idea to make that clear with a smiley or grin for the benefit of the humor-impaired.   Don’t say anything  here you wouldn’t say to a man’s face.  Don’t forget that this is an international forum.    Don’t ever say meniscus. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Have pic of the most beautiful moss-back brown trout I have ever seen, beyond my abilities of description…are image attachments acceptable? Newbie to newsgroups.  Figure if attachments not allowed, wont go through…as I discovered with post containing HTML link being rejected.

NO!   Image attachments are *not* okay here.   You should post them to a binary ng such as alt.binary.pictures.fishing.   Then simply post here that the pix are there.   And unfortunately yes, they did come through (all 92KB of them.); but nobody with a shred of sanity would open an unsolicited attachment anyway. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted? Surprised that a post containing ‘<a href…etc’ was kicked back by the news server filter but it allowed attachment through if they are unacceptable. Saw that ‘alt.fan.bettie-page’ (that probably shows my age) had attachments but have no idea what ‘alt.’ means or which other allow for images besides ‘.binary.’ Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats. Help, Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have pic of the most beautiful moss-back brown trout I have ever seen, beyond my abilities of description…are image attachments acceptable? Newbie to newsgroups.  Figure if attachments not allowed, wont go through…as I discovered with post containing HTML link being rejected. NO!   Image attachments are *not* okay here.   You should post them to a binary ng such as alt.binary.pictures.fishing.   Then simply post here that the pix are there.   And unfortunately yes, they did come through (all 92KB of them.); but nobody with a shred of sanity would open an unsolicited attachment anyway. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted?

Some newsreaders (e.g. Outlook Express) allow a "Cancel Message" but it doesn’t always work, & I wouldn’t bother. Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats.

Probably, but darned if I know where.   Undoubtedly someone here does & will jump in.   In general, though most of what you need to know will only come through experience.   Most groups have different "personalities" as far as the level of friendliness, abuse, hostility, etc. that goes beyond the how, what, & why.   With any group, it’s usually a good idea to just read all the posts for a while to get a feel for it before jumping in.   This group, for example, despite being primarily fly-fishing related, spends a great deal of time discussing other things.   In the right context, that is acceptable here; but some groups react badly to any off-topic discussions. Also in general, be respectful of basic societal norms and courtesies. Don’t be an asshole.   Pay attention if somebody tells you you are.   We cannot and do not keep total assholes from barging in here and being a nuisance, but we can at least have a great deal of entertainment at their expense (lemons from lemonade and all that).   You do not want to be on the receiving end of what some folks can dish out. Don’t try to sell stuff or use this forum as your personal soapbox.   Do tell us about yourself, your fishing trips, your tips & secrets.   If you make a nasty comment meant in jest, it’s not a bad idea to make that clear with a smiley or grin for the benefit of the humor-impaired.   Don’t say anything  here you wouldn’t say to a man’s face.  Don’t forget that this is an international forum.    Don’t ever say meniscus. Don’t think you’re smarter than us; you’re not.   The collective intelligence among the cast of characters here is amazing on a variety of topics.   If you ask for help, somebody will definitely know the answer if it’s fishing-related; and you’ve got a good chance even if it isn’t.   And be specific. We’re all human being behind these electronic facades, & it’s better when we act accordingly.   Read, pay attention, listen, join in.   It’s simple. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

And, for GOD’s sake, watch out for Waldo if he’s having a bad hair day.. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oops…is there a way for me (as the sender) to delete the post or have it deleted? Some newsreaders (e.g. Outlook Express) allow a "Cancel Message" but it doesn’t always work, & I wouldn’t bother. Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats. Probably, but darned if I know where.   Undoubtedly someone here does & will jump in.   In general, though most of what you need to know will only come through experience.   Most groups have different "personalities" as far as the level of friendliness, abuse, hostility, etc. that goes beyond the how, what, & why.   With any group, it’s usually a good idea to just read all the posts for a while to get a feel for it before jumping in.   This group, for example, despite being primarily fly-fishing related, spends a great deal of time discussing other things.   In the right context, that is acceptable here; but some groups react badly to any off-topic discussions. Also in general, be respectful of basic societal norms and courtesies. Don’t be an asshole.   Pay attention if somebody tells you you are.   We cannot and do not keep total assholes from barging in here and being a nuisance, but we can at least have a great deal of entertainment at their expense (lemons from lemonade and all that).   You do not want to be on the receiving end of what some folks can dish out. Don’t try to sell stuff or use this forum as your personal soapbox.   Do tell us about yourself, your fishing trips, your tips & secrets.   If you make a nasty comment meant in jest, it’s not a bad idea to make that clear with a smiley or grin for the benefit of the humor-impaired.   Don’t say anything  here you wouldn’t say to a man’s face.  Don’t forget that this is an international forum.    Don’t ever say meniscus. Don’t think you’re smarter than us; you’re not.   The collective intelligence among the cast of characters here is amazing on a variety of topics.   If you ask for help, somebody will definitely know the answer if it’s fishing-related; and you’ve got a good chance even if it isn’t.   And be specific. We’re all human being behind these electronic facades, & it’s better when we act accordingly.   Read, pay attention, listen, join in.   It’s simple. HTH, Joe F.

Response:

Are there any tutorials or faq for usenet newbies?  My isp (amexol) provides nothing.  Search for info did not cover such questions, mostly hows, not whats.

Go to www.google.com and enter the search phrase ‘usenet FAQ’. Generally binaries are acceptable in alt.binary.*** groups and possible a few others.  There’s lots of reasons for keeping attachments out of the text newsgroup hierarchies, which the FAQs will explain.  Joes’s suggestion to post of alt.binaries.pictures.fishing is appropriate as is sending the URL of a web page where the picture can be retrieved.  Note that some of the ROFF readers cannot get a.b.p.f., and a web reference reaches more people. Nice fish by the way. –Stan

Response:

Question:

Looking for info on fly fishing around Lava Hot Springs, Idaho. I will be there in August of ‘99 for a week and would like to fly fish the area with out a 2 hour drive. Could use any and all help. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. JWTrout

Response:

Looking for info on fly fishing around Lava Hot Springs, Idaho. I will be there in August of ‘99 for a week and would like to fly fish the area with out a 2 hour drive. Could use any and all help. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. JWTrout

John: I don’t have my information here in front of me, but one place you might want to try is the Blackfoot River above Blackfoot Reservoir.  If you do a little checking, you’ll find that the Nature Conservancy and the State of Idaho have purchased a large piece of land surrounding the river and are in the process of restoring the cutthroat fishery there.  Based on pictures I’ve seen, it looks like classic meadow fishing and supposedly there is starting to be some very good fishing. There is also a rod-fee fishery on the Blackfoot Indian Reservation in the something-or-other Springs close to the Snake River near the town of Blackfoot. There is an Idaho Flyfishing book that I’ll look up when I get home.  It has quite a few suggestions for SE Idaho fishing. Bob

Response:

Looking for info on fly fishing around Lava Hot Springs, Idaho. I will be there in August of ‘99 for a week and would like to fly fish the area with out a 2 hour drive. Could use any and all help. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Check out this website         www.2.state.id.us/fishgame/askfish.htm It might help you out Big Al

Response:

Looking for info on fly fishing around Lava Hot Springs, Idaho.

No fishing there. Nope. None.  Don’t bother to bring waders. For some reason Idaho Fish and Game close the river in town to fishing.  Afraid people would hook a swimmer or something. As for fishing ousid of Lava Hotsprings.  Just drive around until you find a stream.   An Idaho Topo Atlas by Delorme is worth the $15 investment even if you are only going to use it that week. Carl

Response:

bring your float tube and try out Daniels, Twenty-Four Mile, and Chesterfield Reservoirs.

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Question:

>From: Gidget >urf wrote: >> Speaking and acting with love in one’s heart for others is an ideal that I >> would follow to the extent that I am able to. >I wouldn’t go that far.  The love in my heart is reserved for those who’ve >earned it for whatever reason.  But speaking and acting with compassion and >respect for others is, to me, a very reasonable ideal.

Ditto.  This goes back to the thread on what we need.  I think that when others are treated respectfully, it is not necessarily coming from a place of love…moreso from a place of caring. No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. -William Blake

Response:

>Minus 10 points for political correctness…

You butt. ) No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. -William Blake

Response:

Speaking and acting with love in one’s heart for others is an ideal that I would follow to the extent that I am able to. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oceanmomma wrote in message <19990309112015.28004.00000…@ng134.aol.com>… >>From: urf <nos…@erols.com> >>Judgment is unavoidable. People have opinions and should be able to >>express them. There should be no "political correctness" here. No one >>should say anything they don’t mean to gain favor. The one thing I >>have trouble with is condemnation. >>But I’m not condemning anyone for that. >I agree that people should be able to express their opinion.  If they choose to >do it disrespectfully, or judgmentally, that speaks loudly of who they are. >There is a difference between being politically correct and just showing some >plain old respect.  Why not speak to members of this group as lovingly as one >would speak to their spouse?  Doesn’t all personkind deserve respect?  Or does >it only apply at home? >No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. >-William Blake

Response:

Semantics again. The people with whom I disagree are "judgmental". The people with whom I agree are "insightful". Or so it seems to me. — Sourdough sez: "We would worry a lot less about what other people think of us, if we realized how seldom they do." Oceanmomma wrote in message

<19990308203922.14376.00003…@ng18.aol.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>From: urf <nos…@erols.com> >>I agree, Gidget. One should be free to say anything without fear here. >I agree Urf.  It would be really nice if there were an atmosphere of >non-judgement.  However, the reality is that there is plenty of judgement in >here. >And please let’s not get started on what reality is  Pretty please???? >No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. >-William Blake

Response:

urf wrote: > Speaking and acting with love in one’s heart for others is an ideal that I > would follow to the extent that I am able to.

I wouldn’t go that far.  The love in my heart is reserved for those who’ve earned it for whatever reason.  But speaking and acting with compassion and respect for others is, to me, a very reasonable ideal.

Response:

Nobody wrote: > Gidget, I agree 100%.  I think its a troll, but the guy sounds like > he’s into power games.  I also would guess that his wife is mildly > interested in the power games as well, seeing that she responded > with the "Yes, Master" he wanted to hear instead of, "Shove it, > you fool."  There are a lot more people into the power game thing > than you might think.

Not only that, but I have a hard time believing that this guy all of a sudden woke up one day and decided he wanted his wife to go w/o underwear or play kinky sex games. This kind of thing, if the person is interested, would be kind of difficult to conceal for 29 years of marriage.

Response:

Gidget, Then what does it make them? I’m curious as to how you would characterize them. Arnie In article <36E3BE68.9EF8…@hotmail.com>, Gidget – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> wrote: > He does sound trollish, but the truth is… a husband that wants his wife to go > without underwear or wants to be called "Master", is not all that bizarre.  Lots > of people have some kind of fetish that they like to indulge in, and while their > practices may seem "weird" to you and me, it hardly makes them "sick > motherfuckers."

Response:

Arnie wrote: > Gidget, > Then what does it make them? I’m curious as to how you would characterize them.

Assuming the original poster is not just a foolish troll… I would characterize him as a person with a fetish (the desire for his mate to go w/o underwear) and a taste for "alternative" sexual practices (the dominance/submission games).

Response:

In article <36E3BE68.9EF8…@hotmail.com>,   Gidget <gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> wrote: > Lots of people have some kind of fetish that they like to indulge in, and > while their practices may seem "weird" to you and me, it hardly makes them >"sick motherfuckers."

If an individual had an Oedipus complex and they followed through on their feeling then I think that they would qualify.  Dont you Gidget? garyz We cannot direct the wind but we can adjust the sails. ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

ga…@my-dejanews.com wrote: > If an individual had an Oedipus complex and they followed through on their > feeling then I think that they would qualify.  Dont you Gidget?

Obviously… so would a pedophile.

Response:

C’mon, now!  What goes on between ‘consenting adults’ is none of our business! Really, I’m kidding. Amused – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ga…@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7c1cs5$nj…@nnrp1.dejanews.com>… >In article <36E3BE68.9EF8…@hotmail.com>, >  Gidget <gidgetoli…@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Lots of people have some kind of fetish that they like to indulge in, and >> while their practices may seem "weird" to you and me, it hardly makes them >>"sick motherfuckers." >If an individual had an Oedipus complex and they followed through on their >feeling then I think that they would qualify.  Dont you Gidget? >garyz >We cannot direct the wind but we can adjust the sails. >———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- >http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Response:

I agree, Gidget. One should be free to say anything without fear here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gidget wrote: > Gail Warnings wrote: > > I really hope this is a troll, not just some sick motherfucker who likes to > > do weird things to some woman who is probably 60 years old.  This reminds me > > of the rape guy– and not in a good way. > He does sound trollish, but the truth is… a husband that wants his wife to go > without underwear or wants to be called "Master", is not all that bizarre.  Lots > of people have some kind of fetish that they like to indulge in, and while their > practices may seem "weird" to you and me, it hardly makes them "sick > motherfuckers."

Response:

Judgment is unavoidable. People have opinions and should be able to express them. There should be no "political correctness" here. No one should say anything they don’t mean to gain favor. The one thing I have trouble with is condemnation. But I’m not condemning anyone for that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oceanmomma wrote: > >From: urf <nos…@erols.com> > >I agree, Gidget. One should be free to say anything without fear here. > I agree Urf.  It would be really nice if there were an atmosphere of > non-judgement.  However, the reality is that there is plenty of judgement in > here. > And please let’s not get started on what reality is  Pretty please???? > No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. > -William Blake

Response:

Minus 10 points for political correctness… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Oceanmomma wrote in message <19990309112015.28004.00000…@ng134.aol.com>… >Doesn’t all personkind deserve respect

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>From: urf <nos…@erols.com> >Judgment is unavoidable. People have opinions and should be able to >express them. There should be no "political correctness" here. No one >should say anything they don’t mean to gain favor. The one thing I >have trouble with is condemnation. >But I’m not condemning anyone for that.

I agree that people should be able to express their opinion.  If they choose to do it disrespectfully, or judgmentally, that speaks loudly of who they are. There is a difference between being politically correct and just showing some plain old respect.  Why not speak to members of this group as lovingly as one would speak to their spouse?  Doesn’t all personkind deserve respect?  Or does it only apply at home? No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. -William Blake

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Did he also have a diamond in his belly button? lol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Amused wrote: > I saw him last week living under a bridge, eating Billy-goats and fly > fishing. > Amused > Gail Warnings wrote in message <7buhgj$o6…@camel18.mindspring.com>… > >Richard Terry wrote in message <7bu94a$6i…@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… > >.  I want my wife to stop wearing > >>underwear.  I positively had bras and for a time hid all her bras and made > >>her wear bralettes, which provide minimum support and maximum view. > >>I’ve told her that when our youngest son (a senior in high school) goes to > >>college I want her to go around the house without clothes.  .  It turns me > >on to think of > >>inflicting mild pain on my wife.  I have wrist restraints that I just > >bought > >>that I would like to use and a riding crop that I bought in hopes of tying > >>her up after a few weeks post op rest as well as nipple clamps.  I don’t > >>really want to hurt her, it just turns me on for her to be submissive. > >I really hope this is a troll, not just some sick motherfucker who likes to > >do weird things to some woman who is probably 60 years old.  This reminds > me > >of the rape guy– and not in a good way. > >Gail

Response:

>From: urf <nos…@erols.com> >I agree, Gidget. One should be free to say anything without fear here.

I agree Urf.  It would be really nice if there were an atmosphere of non-judgement.  However, the reality is that there is plenty of judgement in here. And please let’s not get started on what reality is  Pretty please???? No bird soars too high, if he soars with his own wings. -William Blake

Response:

Call Dr. Popoola.  He helped you before according to your other posting in alt.support.obesity. _____________________________________________________________________ Rich here.  10 months ago I weighed 300 pounds, today 3/1/99 I weight 207. After years of trying to diet I finally realized that my weight problem did not have to do with lack of will power, but a genetic problem passed down from generation to generation. Dr. Dapo Popoola, of the Surgilite Medical Group of North Hollywood, CA. performed a Vertical Ring Gastric Bypass on me and since that day my entire life has changed.  I was diabetic, I am no longer diabetic.  While I am still hypertensive I have cut my medications in half.  I am healther than I have ever been running up to 18 miles a week and doing a full body work out 3 days a week.  If you’re interested in knowing more, I have created a website for Surgilite at surgilite.hypermart.net and you can find out whatever your need to know by visiting that site.  Goodluck. ______________________________________________________ garyz Never mistake motion for action. –Ernest Hemingway ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

"Richard Terry" <rwte…@earthlink.net> wrote: >Short of going to a psychiatrist I am looking for some help.  Perhpas this >is the place.  Please bear with me as I explain.

Richard, It sounds like you’re going to need that psychiatrist.  It doesn’t sound like your wife is into these sex games you are playing.  If she isn’t,  you need help and plenty of it.

Response:

Gail Warnings wrote: > I really hope this is a troll, not just some sick motherfucker who likes to > do weird things to some woman who is probably 60 years old.  This reminds me > of the rape guy– and not in a good way.

He does sound trollish, but the truth is… a husband that wants his wife to go without underwear or wants to be called "Master", is not all that bizarre.  Lots of people have some kind of fetish that they like to indulge in, and while their practices may seem "weird" to you and me, it hardly makes them "sick motherfuckers."

Response:

Richard Terry wrote in message <7bu94a$6i…@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>…

.  I want my wife to stop wearing >underwear.  I positively had bras and for a time hid all her bras and made >her wear bralettes, which provide minimum support and maximum view. >I’ve told her that when our youngest son (a senior in high school) goes to >college I want her to go around the house without clothes.  .  It turns me on to think of >inflicting mild pain on my wife.  I have wrist restraints that I just bought >that I would like to use and a riding crop that I bought in hopes of tying >her up after a few weeks post op rest as well as nipple clamps.  I don’t >really want to hurt her, it just turns me on for her to be submissive.

I really hope this is a troll, not just some sick motherfucker who likes to do weird things to some woman who is probably 60 years old.  This reminds me of the rape guy– and not in a good way. Gail

Response:

I saw him last week living under a bridge, eating Billy-goats and fly fishing. Amused – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gail Warnings wrote in message <7buhgj$o6…@camel18.mindspring.com>… >Richard Terry wrote in message <7bu94a$6i…@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… >.  I want my wife to stop wearing >>underwear.  I positively had bras and for a time hid all her bras and made >>her wear bralettes, which provide minimum support and maximum view. >>I’ve told her that when our youngest son (a senior in high school) goes to >>college I want her to go around the house without clothes.  .  It turns me >on to think of >>inflicting mild pain on my wife.  I have wrist restraints that I just >bought >>that I would like to use and a riding crop that I bought in hopes of tying >>her up after a few weeks post op rest as well as nipple clamps.  I don’t >>really want to hurt her, it just turns me on for her to be submissive. >I really hope this is a troll, not just some sick motherfucker who likes to >do weird things to some woman who is probably 60 years old.  This reminds me >of the rape guy– and not in a good way. >Gail

Response:

Gidget wrote: > He does sound trollish, but the truth is… a husband that wants his wife to go > without underwear or wants to be called "Master", is not all that bizarre.  Lots > of people have some kind of fetish that they like to indulge in, and while their > practices may seem "weird" to you and me, it hardly makes them "sick > motherfuckers."

Gidget, I agree 100%.  I think its a troll, but the guy sounds like he’s into power games.  I also would guess that his wife is mildly interested in the power games as well, seeing that she responded with the "Yes, Master" he wanted to hear instead of, "Shove it, you fool."  There are a lot more people into the power game thing than you might think. Drew

Response:

Short of going to a psychiatrist I am looking for some help.  Perhpas this is the place.  Please bear with me as I explain. I have been married to the same woman for 29 years.  I love her beyond words, but for 29 years we have struggled with a problem that seems to be getting worse and I need some objective input for disinterested third parties.  So here goes. As I said I love my wife, but I have a desire to control her, Oh, not in the conventional way.  I want her to have her own live, but I want to control what she wears under her clothes.  My wife says I just want to control her, if so, after you read this tell me so.  I want my wife to stop wearing underwear.  I positively had bras and for a time hid all her bras and made her wear bralettes, which provide minimum support and maximum view.  She is getting read to have a hysterectomy and after the surgery I do not want her to wear panties any more.  It turns me on to think of my wife, out in public, without underwear.  I’ve never asked her to do anything that she would consider immoral, only that she not wear underwear. On occasions she has gone without a bra, and several yeas ago, on one of our anniverseries, she went without bra and panties and I can’t describe how it made me feel.  I have a strong sex drive, but she does not.  I want sex every night, she wants it every week or month (I’m no exaggerating).  I dream about her every night. I dream about her being naked in front of other men and women and being ordered to allow the men to make love to her to for her to provide oral sex to the women. I’ve told her that when our youngest son (a senior in high school) goes to college I want her to go around the house without clothes.  I don’t want sex 24/7 I just like to look at my wife’s beautiful body. I do have one other "hang up" if you please.  It turns me on to think of inflicting mild pain on my wife.  I have wrist restraints that I just bought that I would like to use and a riding crop that I bought in hopes of tying her up after a few weeks post op rest as well as nipple clamps.  I don’t really want to hurt her, it just turns me on for her to be submissive. Last night we had a fight, afterwards I ordered her to remove all her clothes and as I made love to her I told her that she was to address me, at all times with "Yes, Sir" and when it was just she and I she was to address me as "Master".  I can’t begin to tell you how it turned me on when I asked "Do you understand what I’m saying" and she replied "Yes master." I love my wife and want help. After love making I feel so guilty.  I don’t want to hurt her, but at the same time I get so turned on by her submissiveness.  Does anyone have any suggestions that might help me to control my passions and range.   Please reply to me privately and not on this list because I need to hear from you as soon as possible. thanx for listening, I hope you can help. RWT mailto:rwte…@earthlink.net

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Question:

hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

Greg, Anywhere on Century Drive late August should be fantastic! I love Hosmer, Sparks and the Sheeps Bridge area on the Deschutes Arm of Wickiup. The Browns start to move up into the Deschutes preparing to spawn and early morning and evening fishing can be incredible. I once saw a gentleman from Bend fishing the oxbow bend below the guard station accross from Twin Lakes release a ten pound brown with the comment that "you can only keep two fish and you want them to be good ones".(actually, they all should be released!)I was afraid to let my setter in the water there because of the size of the fish rolling everywhere. You should have Brooks at Sparks, Brooks and Atlantics at Hosmer, Kocs and Rainbow at Craine Prairie, and Browns in Wickiup all easily within your 50 mile radius. The area is Magic!!!!! Enjoy. Tight Lines  Jean

Response:

hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

Response:

hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

Below are from my own personal experiences over about 15 years.   Others may well have different opinions. Wickiup Reservoir: kokanee during the day, BIG browns in evening.  (Look at pictures at Twin Lakes Store on the way in.)  Get on the lake early and expect high winds to blow you off between 11:00am and 1:00pm.  Usually calm down about sundown. Lava Lake: lots of trout; brookies and rainbows. Hosmer Lake (fly fishing only): large brook trout, catch and release Atlantic Salmon. Upper Deschutes River (between Lava and Crane Prairie): brookies and rainbows. Upper Deschutes River (between Wickiup and Pringle Falls): rainbows and browns; take dirt road between Pringle Falls and Wickiup and fish from shore, or find a place to launch boat, somewhere.  (I float tube it – 2 1/2 hour drift). Paulina Lake and East Lake (both in Newberry Crater – make a side trip to the observation point for the view and information about the crater, well worth it). Paulina: large browns in very early morning, kokanee later – usually very clear water and beautiful setting; East Lake: mostly for large rainbow and browns, high mercury content in water (natural, not man made), so read warnings. Davis Lake (fly fishing only): large rainbows. Cultus Lake: Huge Lake Trout, but hard to catch, and many water skiers. Cultus River looks likely, but the water is full of natural sulfer and there are no fish in it. As a general rule, forget: Elk Lake, Twin Lakes, Fall River, Little Lava Lake, unless you are with someone who is experienced with them. Good luck. — Max Max Whittington Investigations Beaverton (Portland), Oregon http://www.inetarena.com/~mwi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Davis Lake (fly fishing only): large rainbows. Cultus Lake: Huge Lake Trout, but hard to catch, and many water skiers. Cultus River looks likely, but the water is full of natural sulfer and there are no fish in it. As a general rule, forget: Elk Lake, Twin Lakes, Fall River, Little Lava Lake, unless you are with someone who is experienced with them. Good luck. — Max Max Whittington Investigations Beaverton (Portland), Oregon http://www.inetarena.com/~mwi

Also, try getting a map and if you don’t mind a few miles of washboard dirt road try Little Cultus lake.  The fish aren’t big but they’re plentiful and pretty easy to catch ; ) rn

Response:

jFirst off 1 day a Crane will not do it or yourself justice. I would plan for at least 2 or 3 days unless you are really pressed for time. Big Lava Lake is near there and is another excellent trout lake. Give it a try too. hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

– No mans property is safe when congress is in session…

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Question:

I have a couple of days free in Seattle at the end of June. Any FF recommendations (river, not lake). Appreciate all advice. Thanks. George

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   I have a couple of days free in Seattle at the end of June.   Any FF recommendations (river, not lake).   Appreciate all advice.   Thanks.   George

June can often times be pretty marginal in Western Washington because of runoff from the snowpack.  This year, we have a snowpack in the Cascades that is twice that of the average (biggest in over 20 years).  The rivers may be pretty high in June this year… That not withstanding, there are many steelhead guides that cover the rivers around Seattle.  If you only have a day or two, it might be worth looking into going out with a guide. I’ve not ever fished with a guide around here, so I can’t suggest any firsthand.  I can suggest some folks based on what I’ve heard.  Email for more details. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

Response:

I have a couple of days free in Seattle at the end of June. Any FF recommendations (river, not lake). Appreciate all advice. Thanks. George

Summer steelhead should be good on the North Fork of the Stillaguamish River, a fly fishing only river 1 1/2 hour drive north of Seattle. — Shinji Unno                     Karaoke Party in Seattle, WA, USA? Also a steelhead fly fisher               http://www.sbkaraoke.com

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Question:

I would like to find a canoe that will work as a boat to flyfish out of (small lake fishing).  This means I HAVE TO be able to stand up in it.  I also have to be able to carry it on top of my Jeep Wrangler. The canoe that has caught my eye is the Old Town Discovery 133k.  I understand that this canoe has been around for some time so I should be able to pick up a used one for a reasonable price.  I also want it to be able to be fit with oar locks.  What price should I pay for this canoe used? new?  What other canoes might suit my purpose better?  I am also considering building some type of outriggers for it for added stability and a platform to fish/cast from.  Any advice on this? Thank you, Paul P.S. Besided the classifieds, which I’m watching closely, does anyone have an idea of a good place to find a used canoe.  I live about 2 hours north of Seattle.

Response:

I would like to find a canoe that will work as a boat to flyfish out of (small lake fishing).  This means I HAVE TO be able to stand up in it.   snip< Thank you, Paul

Dear Paul;  I don’t mean to pick, no not at all, but to be fair to you and to the potential craft, I would recommend that if you need< to stand up to cast, you should work on your casting technique. I won’t go into it here, but you really should be able to cast sitting down, yeah, you can’t cast as far< sitting down, but you can sure cast safer.

luv chipper

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I would like to find a canoe that will work as a boat to flyfish out of (small lake fishing).  This means I HAVE TO be able to stand up in it.   snip< Thank you, Paul

Paul, I think it’s Mad River, but they used to make several boats ( the winooski comes ito my foggy mind here) that were "really wide as hell". I think they had a 15 foot boat that was like 60" wide at midship. It was really stable. But then again, it was really interesting to paddle. I sat in the middle, and leaned it over like Mason would have done, and it spun on a dime, but with 4 feet of boat sticking up in the air, it really caught the wind too. You know, this might actually be an application for one of those rigs that have an extended thwart that sticks out either side of your boat, and has a flotation bag on each end. Like a Hawaiian boat, only you have two. You could dance a jig on one of those things. Still, If I can stand up in a dragonfly and fish, you can stand up in one of those things. I stand up sometimes in my Blue hole when fishing, and with a ton of gear in the thing, it’s really stable. I dunno,  shouldn’t be a problem whatever you decide to do. Good Luck. Dale  http://www.inlink.com/~dailu/  http://www.inlink.com/~dailu/intergear.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to find a canoe that will work as a boat to flyfish out of (small lake fishing).  This means I HAVE TO be able to stand up in it.   snip< Thank you, Paul Dear Paul; I don’t mean to pick, no not at all, but to be fair to you and to the potential craft, I would recommend that if you need< to stand up to cast, you should work on your casting technique. I won’t go into it here, but you really should be able to cast sitting down, yeah, you can’t cast as far< sitting down, but you can sure cast safer. chipper

Thank you for being helpful and posting a follow up to my question, however I am still looking for an answer.  I know that my post is only a day old, but I don’t want Chipper’s interjection to be viewed as a conclussion to my question.  Please refer to the original post and present your answers according to it.  In case the original post wasn’t clear I’m interested in a canoe that is stable enough so I can stand up in it while flycasting.  This is the main requirement for the canoe.  Meanwhile I will ponder Chipper’s recommendation. Thank you Paul

Response:

Standing in a canoe is something that only takes practice and is not particularly dangerous – in spite of what the Red Cross canoeing course has said for many years.  I’ll be teaching some local scouts the skill later this summer, and hope to have canoe poling officially recognised by the BSA in the next few years. Here in Maine, standing and poling a canoe is common practice. The rivers get pretty low late in the year, and it’s just plain fun. I don’t have any specific canoe recommendation, because any shallow arch, flat bottom or shallow V hull will work. I have stood in and fly casted in dozens of canoes, including Discovery’s 169 and 174, Grummans, Old Town 15-20 foot wood canvas canoes in many models, EM White Guide, Miller (from NB, Canada), Chestnut Prospector, Jerry Stelmok’s Willow (a tender 13 foot W/C canoe) and more. It’s a wonderful way to reduce the glare off the water and with practice is not at all dangerous. What you might consider is getting into a canoe with a setting pole (12 foot or so) and just pushing yourself around off the bottom for a while. If you can get some poling instruction (there’s a class in Maine in June) that’s even better. The trick is to feel comfortable standing in the canoe, even if the canoe moves around under you. Once you have this down – you can walk around in many canoes and be perfectly safe. My 20 foot Old Town Guide has been named "The Enterprise" by my wife, because she’s as big and stable as an aircraft carrier (not my wife, teh canoe). My kids regularly change ends by standing up and walking one end to the other – stepping or crawling over the gear pile in the middle. -Tim — Tim Hewitt – Webmaster Wooden Canoe Heritage Association, Ltd http://www.wcha.org

Response:

I would like to find a canoe that will work as a boat to flyfish out of (small lake fishing).  This means I HAVE TO be able to stand up in it.

Mike:         I too flyfish out of my canoe quite a bit and like to stand a little. Can’t afford a strictly FF boat though so I just settle for my Mad River Explorer.         I think you should be aware that at least some canoe manufacturers (such as Mad River) are honest and don’t try to pretend that every boat they make is suitable for every activity under the sun, but then use differing pictures or euphemisms to hint to you what it’s best use is. Thus, Mad River talks in terms of boats with good "initial stability" and those with good "secondary" stability. Get one of their catalogs and 802-496-3127).         I believe this distinction is a valid one. It seems to me there are two different styles canoe bottoms come in: flattish and deep vee. Of course there are all degrees of in-between. What you find in those towards the flattish end of the scale is that they feel very stable initially; i.e. you put some weight towards one side and the boat does not rock that way very much. The problem with these boats is that they are not very good for traveling far; they paddle like tubs, are susceptible to wind, etc., AND (a very important AND you will quickly grasp once in one), while they have such good "initial" stability once you put just a little too much weight towards one side, when they start to flip THEY REALLY GO. Suddenly. With little warning. Ass over elbows.         On the other end of the spectrum the boats with deep vees tend to "feel" less stable. A little shift to the side and you feel it right away. BUT: you can continue putting weight towards the side and its a far more gradual thing than the flatter-bottomed boats. This is "secondary" stability.         If you truly are willing to buy a boat that has just one use such as FF, you can go quite far to one end of the spectrum and feel very happy.         I know that the Mad River "Winooski" is a very flat-bottomed, wide boat. Other mfg.s undoubtedly have models that are similar in approach. Mad River doubtlessly also has other boats that tend toward the flat-bottomed end of the spectrum. Again, their catalog is excellent in describing these things generally and specifically for each of the boats they sell.         Hope this helps; please know that I am not shilling for Mad River here and have no interest in the company other than as a consumer. (Though I do think they are a great company; they have treated me fantastically as a consumer.)         I just bought an Old Town "Pack" model canoe. A little solo 12 footer, for portaging into little trout lakes to fish up in Canada. If I had really wanted what you want I would have gone with the Winooski but I liked the weight of the Pack model (33 lbs.) and the price. Don’t know yet if its stable enough for your needs, and, of course, if you intend on fishing with more than one person in the thing the Pack is not the way to go.         I would say this, while you may be strongly drawn to a very flat bottomed boat and may have the luxury of needing/wanting nothing with more versatility you might want to go to a retailer on a lake/stream and at least try out

Question:

Hello All; I have been flyfishing the Deschutes for the last couple of years, and am ready to try the ‘Promised Land’ of Montana.  My inlaws just moved to Red Lodge, and we are visiting in a couple of weeks.  I would appreciate any input on water, flys, flyshops and guides around the area. An insight would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Joe Madden

Response:

: Hello All; : I have been flyfishing the Deschutes for the last couple of years, and am : ready to try the ‘Promised Land’ of Montana.  My inlaws just moved to Red : Lodge, and we are visiting in a couple of weeks.  I would appreciate any input : on water, flys, flyshops and guides around the area. To get from Oregon to Montana, all but the most relaxed traveller will pass through Idaho.  I recommend you stop and smell the trout before moving on to the "Promised Land." — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

To get from Oregon to Montana, all but the most relaxed traveller will pass through Idaho.  I recommend you stop and smell the trout before moving on to the "Promised Land."

Surely this was a typo, right? Didn’t this really mean moving on "from" the promised land? :] Alan (already in the PL)

Response:

Rock Creek on the outside of town (toward the mountains) is decent, but I’d go on over the pass and hit the Clark’s Fork of the Yellowstone.  Try the canyon off the Chief Joseph Highway.  Tough to get to, but big rainbows in there. Nearly all the lakes on top have brookies.  Some have cuts and ‘bows.   Try the upper lake at Island Lake campground for larger brookies. Fishing was tough this year, mainly due to high water last spring.  I live in Silver Gate in summers and fish inside the park most of the time. It only costs $20 to fish yellowstone (was free three years ago).   Down below, The Rosebud isn’t far from REd Lodge, and the Stillwater is also close.  Stillwater has some excellent spots on loop where river turns away from road.  Lots of fast water.  They should be looking for hoppers this time of year.  If that doesn’t work, try parachute duns and Madame X.

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Question:

Has anyone been able to get into Trout Unlimited’s web site??? It was supposed to be available as of January 15th but I get no response each attempt to get in. I’m using the advertised address…..http://www.tu.org/trout….Is this correct? Thanks in advance…. JAPPLe

Try this address, http://www.cais.net/trout/. Vince

Response:

Has anyone been able to get into Trout Unlimited’s web site??? It was supposed to be available as of January 15th but I get no response each attempt to get in. I’m using the advertised address…..http://www.tu.org/trout….Is this correct?

Seems to work fine for me. It does however, take several minutes to load…. Wherever you go….. There you will be

Response:

Go to the YAHOO search engine.  There is a reference point to a Trout Unlimited Site.  It is up and running, I’ve been there. Ross Laurie

Response:

Hi Try the following web address for the Trout Unlimited web site: http://www.cais.net/trout/ Good Luck Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, Mt (catalog avail)

Response:

Question:

I suppose it is a question of numbers.  I like solitude when I fish — yes, I do more walking now then I use to.  A few years ago before kayaking and rafting was all the rage, a kayaker or two floating by now and then was no big deal. Now, however, I’ve simply given up on water frequented by this crew; it is a steady, continuous stream of sometimes polite, but often not, kayakers and crowded rafts, at least in daylight hours.   It has become their river, not mine or that of most fisherman I know.  And, it would seem, some kayakers and rafters prefer solitude also and so I find them increasingly in places they never were before — even tubbers in relatively quiet waters! I would favor seasons on such waters.  One for fishing, one for rafting.  In the latter case, I would surrender the river during high run-off times, and restrict it to fishing, swimming, picnics, etc. during the rest of the year (now, there is no rest of the year, at least during warmer weather).  When this first got going, it was high, white water that attracted rafters and kayakers.  Now it seems to be almost anytime. The commercial folks would probably have a fit though, and probably the resort owners catering to fishermen as well.   idle thoughts, Richard Wildman

Response:

A world away from the rafts, kayaks, tubes and outfitters… Started my fishing season after work yesterday, hitting the beach down the street to see if the first run of stripers had reached Maine yet. Usually this happens about May 15th, but the winter was mild, the sun was shining and the tide was right. Packed the family lab into the Jeep pickup and brought the light rod, the 8 weight….Powell (Yeah, you thought I was going to say Orvis weren’t you…). No cars at the beach, might as well let the beast run. Little tide so the rip wasn’t too intense as I waded out into the surf. I expected Cassidy to dive in after my fly since I usually leave her in the truck when I fish, but somehow she knew not to. Swam a bit, then went about the business of terrorizing the local bird population. Chartreuse clouser drew no interest nor did the surf candy. If these two don’t do it there ain’t no fish there yet, but I continued casting, enjoying the feel of the waves on my chest. Decided to do a test on a big bulky pattern I tied to imitate bunker. Looks good dry, but I wanted to see how it cast & tracked. It’s really a 2/0 white deceiver, which is then sheathed in Enrico’s sea fiber (lavender) with 2 strips of flashabou on each side, big eyes and an epoxy head and herl on top. About 8" long. I was concerned that the sea fiber would absorb water and cast like a wet towel, but was real glad to find otherwise. I think this will be a good material for building cow flies, check it out. Anyways after 2 hours I knew the run hadn’t started yet, called in the dog and decided to walk up the Mousam River. Once the run starts this place will be elbow to elbow with fishermen, and I will retreat to the treacherous crags and cliffs where every fish is a surprise, returning here only when the weather is bad enough to keep sane people at home. But tonight the beach is ours and as we sit watching the reflection of the sunset in a tidal pool, listening to the cadence of the surf I think of the t-shirt that says ‘Maine: The Way Life Should Be’ and I think "Yup, it sure is."                               john cloyd

Response:

: …Now, however, I’ve simply given up on water frequented : by this crew; it is a steady, continuous stream of sometimes : polite, but often not, kayakers and crowded rafts, at : least in daylight hours.   : I would favor seasons on such waters.  One for fishing, : one for rafting.  In the latter case, I would surrender : the river during high run-off times, and restrict it to : fishing, swimming, picnics, etc. during the rest of the year : (now, there is no rest of the year, at least during warmer : weather).   : …The commercial folks would probably have a fit though, : and probably the resort owners catering to fishermen as well.   They are.  This argument is currently in full dress in Hells Canyon on the Snake River in Central Idaho.  In this case it is jet boaters vs. the kayakers and rafters.  No road access, so very little fishing pressure.   The kayakers and rafters are pushing hard, and winning, for a short season for power boaters.  The commercial oufits are screaming loudly.  I wonder how the kayakers and rafters would view your plan?  Everywhere is becoming too crowded, except for a few places I won’t talk about here or in books.  I wish everyone would follow that advice. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

Question:

| In some cases, rainbows have been stocked into rivers. One | example of this is the River Derwent which is a tributary of | the River Tyne here in the NE of England. The Tyne, I should | point out is now a rapidly improving salmon river now that | estuary pollution has been cleared up (!!almost!!). | I thought the Wye in Derbyshire was the only English river with a natural population of rainbows. If the Derwent has them reproducing, i would love to hear more. Of course, most of the chalk-streams have been ruined by overstocking of both rainbows and browns. | | There have, however, been some reports of rainbows being | caught at sea by commercial fishermen but these have been | ignored by the government agencies responsible for overseeing | fisheries (Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries aka MAFF and | the National Rivers Authority aka NRA) who apparently just | didn’t believe it possible until one had been slapped across | the table. Give me a ring about this, at work — 071-956-1682 — and I willput you through to my frinsd the rural affairs correspondent. It would make a good story if we talked to kthe netsman. | | Yesterday evening I was talking with a local netsman who told | me he had been catching quite a number recently and had just | succeeded in convincing the NRA that they existed. These fish | are, according to this guy, akin to steelheads with a mouth | full of teeth, and are voracious feeders. Furthermore they are | not small, running to several pounds. Completely different | from the tame little fish reservoir anglers are used to!! | | What worries me about this is the possibility that these | things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I | don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. | If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they | lose those teeth. In Denmark and Southern Sweden, many of the rivers with trout farms on them have a run of steelhead, too. Certainly the Goeta Aelv (which runs through Gothenburg) did. We used to catch them occaionally in the stuary while trying for sea trout. They did not real harm: certainly a lot less than the greedy touristic masses of stocked, non-migratory fish. — Religious Affairs Correspondent | phone +44-71-253-1222 xt 1682 | London, England                 | I’m not paid to have opinions |

Response:

Informed opinion has it that these fish will not breed naturally in our waters and the presence of overwintered, egg bound females in the early part of our season (March) would seem to confirm this.

Aren’t they spring spawners? If so then March would be pre spawn period. Anyways, it may be just possible that they are laying eggs but the habitat does not induce success. Would there be a clear creek for one of the lakes that they could run for spawning? What worries me about this is the possibility that these things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they lose those teeth.

Steelhead are spring spawners by nature and will eventually revert back to spring spawning after several generations. This means most will run the rivers in the spring. But some run the rivers in the fall holding overwinter. The fall runners would probably feed on loose salmon eggs, insects, minnows. But during winter their metabolism is slow and would suspect they don’t feed much. In the sea they feed to grow but in the river they would feed to sustain energy spent. So can I ask you all for some info about these things in the wild?? 1. If they do run our rivers and continue to feed avidly, will they threaten existing fish stocks of salmonids by feeding on eggs, fry or smolts.

I doubt this especially if you have a healthy run of salmons. 2. What breeding conditions do they need?

Same as a salmon but they probably would have a higher fry success rate than salmon. 3. Do they run a river, breed and die/return to the sea like atlantic salmon?

Run, spawn, return. or 4. Will they run up a river, graze until the larders empty and then return to the sea?

No! This could be a real problem for us, I’d appreciate some or any info you might have. Finally, In the event the River Tyne ends up with a steelhead run know any good fly patterns??  =8-(

Anything black works here, nymphs, wigglers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tight lines

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Hi! In the UK our experience with rainbows has, in the past, been largely limited to stillwaters (mostly reservoirs), which are stocked with hatchery reared fish at intervals. I understand, **though I may be completely wrong on this**, that two basic types (shasta and steelhead) were imported into this country a number of years ago but that insufficient care/understanding by breeders has lead to a thorough mixing of the two. What we have now, in nearly all stillwaters, are, as you can guess, pretty poor specimens which apparently bear absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE WHATSOEVER to the REAL thing. You can, however, still pick up obviously different fish which, presumeably, relate more closely to either of the wild types. Informed opinion has it that these fish will not breed naturally in our waters and the presence of overwintered, egg bound females in the early part of our season (March) would seem to confirm this. In some cases, rainbows have been stocked into rivers. One example of this is the River Derwent which is a tributary of the River Tyne here in the NE of England. The Tyne, I should point out is now a rapidly improving salmon river now that estuary pollution has been cleared up (!!almost!!). There have, however, been some reports of rainbows being caught at sea by commercial fishermen but these have been ignored by the government agencies responsible for overseeing fisheries (Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries aka MAFF and the National Rivers Authority aka NRA) who apparently just didn’t believe it possible until one had been slapped across the table. Yesterday evening I was talking with a local netsman who told me he had been catching quite a number recently and had just succeeded in convincing the NRA that they existed. These fish are, according to this guy, akin to steelheads with a mouth full of teeth, and are voracious feeders. Furthermore they are not small, running to several pounds. Completely different from the tame little fish reservoir anglers are used to!! What worries me about this is the possibility that these things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they lose those teeth. So can I ask you all for some info about these things in the wild?? 1. If they do run our rivers and continue to feed avidly, will they threaten existing fish stocks of salmonids by feeding on eggs, fry or smolts. 2. What breeding conditions do they need? 3. Do they run a river, breed and die/return to the sea like atlantic salmon? or 4. Will they run up a river, graze until the larders empty and then return to the sea? This could be a real problem for us, I’d appreciate some or any info you might have. Finally, In the event the River Tyne ends up with a steelhead run know any good fly patterns??  =8-( Tight lines

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…two basic types (shasta and steelhead) were imported…

For *trout*, I believe most of Europe was stocked with "Eagle Lake" rainbow – a lake not far from Shasta in California, USA. For *steelhead*, I could only guess you have the Skamania steelhead from Washington State, USA.   It has been selected for transplant all over because of its suitability with hatchery operations (i.e. cheap and easy to raise). Trout and steelhead are different critters.   Trout are landlocked, and steelhead are typically sea-run, though if you landlock them, they’d probably do fine – the great lakes in the U.S. are an example where they do just fine, and make runs, the only difference is their ocean is freshwater. What we have now … apparently bear absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE …

The U.S. was stocked primarly with two strains of brown trout from Europe.   Old timers said it was once possible to tell them apart. Now they too have interbred and don’t look quite like the real thing.   Still fun to catch though Informed opinion has it that these fish will not breed naturally in our waters and the presence of overwintered, egg bound females in the early part of our season (March) would seem to confirm this.

Rainbows and cutthroat are spring spawners. Steelhead spawn from fall to spring, depending on latitude.   I suspect you’re close to Oregon and Washington – winter (December) through spring (late April) spawning. Only guessing – stocking stillwaters isn’t too successful (spawning wise) for trout.    Most lakes for example in Oregon, were stocked with trout in the 1920’s, or there abouts, and require repeat stockings every few years.   Only those lakes with small creeks incoming, or gravel banks with lots of hydrodynamics, seem to maintain populations without stocking. Rivers however, trout stock fairly easily.   Ditto steelhead if they have a large body of stillwater and running water to run between. There have, however, been some reports of rainbows being caught at sea by commercial fishermen …..

Wouldn’t surprise me. Some Atlantic Salmon were raised next to a coastal stream in Washington State – some accidently got into the river.   Recently, there have been reports of *large* Atlantic Salmon being caught.   I could imagine the Steelhead in Europe finally establishing themselves. What worries me about this is the possibility that these things are going to start running up our salmon rivers. I don’t know if they’re going to continue feeding in freshwater. If so, on what? Not nymphs and flies I expect, unless they lose those teeth.

I don’t know the spawning period for Atlantics.   Read the article enclosed below – there will certainly be competition at some points in the life cycle.   BTW – Young steelhead (egg – alvein – parr – smolt) are aggressive feeders of anything while in fresh water, which is usually from 6 to 24 months, some 36 months. 1. If they do run our rivers and continue to feed avidly, will they threaten existing fish stocks of salmonids by feeding on eggs, fry or smolts.

Adult Steelhead only come into fresh water to spawn, and don’t feed much.   Also, unlike Atlantics, they don’t do as much repeat spawning. In a given run, maybe 35% are one time repeaters, 10% two time. 2. What breeding conditions do they need?

For Steelhead, Very fast tailout water – 3 to 5 mph or up to 8 kph.  Small gravel in tributaries.   For early incoming steelhead, deep holding pools prior to the spawning season. 3. Do they run a river, breed and die/return to the sea like atlantic salmon?

Yep, except more Atlantic repeat the process. 4. Will they run up a river, graze until the larders empty and then return to the sea?

What’s a larder? know any good fly patterns??  =8-(

Many Atlantic Salmon patterns have been modified for Steelhead. Thomas Gilg FYI – From a back issue of our clubs newsletter:                 Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers Newsletter VOLUME X NO.5                                           May 1993 *** Introduction to Stream Habitat Improvement *** Summarized and adapted by Frank Cochrane from ODF&W publication "An Introduction to Stream Habitat Improvement" For a stream to produce large numbers of trout or salmon, the stream habitat must be in good condition.  This requires cold, clean water, food, and cover.  Most of Oregon’s streams have been degraded by man’s activities.  Therefore, the streams cannot support as many fish as they once could. Loss of spawning gravels, rearing areas, streamside vegetation, instream woody debris, and access to productive areas are some of the major results of man’s careless treatment of the aquatic environment. Many of those problems can be overcome in sections of some streams through habitat improvement projects.  The Conservation Committee is presently looking into possibilities for meaningful projects by the Mid Willamette Fly Fishers to improve the aquatic habitat in some of the nearby streams — and improve our fishing opportunities.  The material below gives an introduction to the basic principles of stream habitat improvement. The "Bottleneck Concept" If some limiting factor exists, a stream’s fish production is restricted or "bottlenecked".  Fish numbers are lower than optimum as a result.  Here are two examples:    o If spawning area is limited, spawning success is low.      Therefore, fish numbers are restricted by the small      number of eggs that hatch and develop into fry.    o If the rearing area is poor or the food supply is      inadequate, the fish become stunted or their numbers      are reduced.  Therefore, the mature fish are not      healthy, or there are not many mature fish. In either case, fish numbers cannot be increased until the stream habitat is improved and the bottleneck is reduced. It is important to understand what is limiting fish production in a particular situation so that efforts to increase the numbers of fish are not misdirected and wasted. What are common Habitat Problems?    o Water Quality.  Temperatures may be too high for trout      or salmon.  Various types of pollution may be having a      negative effect on fish and aquatic insect production.    o Barriers to Production Areas.  These may be either      natural, such as falls or log jams, or man- made, such      as dams and improperly installed culverts.    o Abused Riparian Zone.  Overgrazing, logging, road      building, and urban development often result in loss of      streamside vegetation.  Good plant growth along a      stream provides shade that helps keep water cool,      reduces erosion and silt loads, and contributes insects      to the fish food supply.    o Lack of Spawning Area.  Some streams lack suitable      spawning areas because of scouring by floods, channel      alterations from human activity, or the lack of proper      size gravels in the stream.    o Inadequate Juvenile Rearing Areas.  A mixture of      riffles and pools, undercut streambanks, side channels,      and instream boulders plus a certain amount of large      woody structures are necessary to provide juvenile fish      with an environment for survival and growth.    o Adult Holding Areas are Missing.  Adult fish need pools      for hiding and resting.  This is especially true for      some salmon and steelhead that return several months      before spawning.  Many streams lack sufficient holding      pools for adults. How to Conduct a Project to Improve Stream Habitat Each project to improve stream habitat requires individual consideration to tailor it to the need and the site.  The steps below are essential for a successful project.   1. Identify the Problem.  Before starting a project to      improve stream habitat, we need to find out where and      what is needed, with the help and guidance of ODF&W or      other fishery professionals.  Stream surveys must be      done to collect appropriate information, and the      results must be evaluated.  What are the bottlenecks?   2. Prescribe a Treatment.  We should determine what      actions can be taken to reduce the bottlenecks.   3. Treat the Bottlenecks.  The treatment prescribed above      is then carried out.   4. Evaluate the Results.  Is the treatment accomplishing      the desired result?  We should consider both short and      long term effects.  Are there more healthy fish in the      stream?  Are there lessor bottlenecks that need      treatment?   5. Maintain the Habitat Improvement.  Periodic inspection      and maintenance may be needed to ensure the retention      of any beneficial effect. It is sometimes tempting to get in too big of a hurry to do Steps 1, 4 and 5.  Let’s not fall into that trap! Look for more from the Conservation Committee in the near future concerning projects to improve stream habitat — and to improve fishing opportunities at the same time.

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