Question:

Spending a week in the Jackson Hole area, and would like suggestions for access to Flat Creek in the Elk Refuge. Has it been too dry?  Bank fishing only or can it be wade fished? Best, Vic

Vic: Not to worry about Elk. They don’t come to the refuge till late Oct/Nov. Sounds like your times are OK…..George  ( enjoy  )

Response:

Spending a week in the Jackson Hole area, and would like suggestions for access to Flat Creek in the Elk Refuge. Has it been too dry?  Bank fishing only or can it be wade fished? Best, Vic

Response:

Spending a week in the Jackson Hole area, and would like suggestions for access to Flat Creek in the Elk Refuge. Has it been too dry?  Bank fishing only or can it be wade fished? Best, Vic

Vic:  Access is easy at cut out parking along side the Elk refuge. Put on gear and walk to Flat Creek(couple hundred yards).My son lives in Jackson and fishes the creek often.He has not mentioned it being dry. I can’t see that hapening frankly.We will be there next month. I have fished the creek an it is the PHD of fly fishing. Fish are VERY spooky. You can wade easily although I have never seen anyone do it cause you spook the fish. Best to sneak along the bank so as not to be seen and cast from there.There are some really BIG fish in it, but probably by now they’ve seen about every fly in existance. Creek is never crowded–that’s not the problem…the fish are SMART. Good luck…sincerely. I’d be interested in your outcome. George Reber

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Thanks George! September is Elk mating season, no clanking about, eh. I’ll give it a try from the bank. Fish usually rise around 11:00 AM, and return for the evening hatch around 4:00 PM? Tight lines, Vic

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spending a week in the Jackson Hole area, and would like suggestions for access to Flat Creek in the Elk Refuge. Has it been too dry?  Bank fishing only or can it be wade fished? Best, Vic Vic:  Access is easy at cut out parking along side the Elk refuge. Put on gear and walk to Flat Creek(couple hundred yards).My son lives in Jackson and fishes the creek often.He has not mentioned it being dry. I can’t see that hapening frankly.We will be there next month. I have fished the creek an it is the PHD of fly fishing. Fish are VERY spooky. You can wade easily although I have never seen anyone do it cause you spook the fish. Best to sneak along the bank so as not to be seen and cast from there.There are some really BIG fish in it, but probably by now they’ve seen about every fly in existance. Creek is never crowded–that’s not the problem…the fish are SMART. Good luck…sincerely. I’d be interested in your outcome. George Reber

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Question:

When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

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Gordon MacQuarrie stories, published in the 40’s and 50’s in outdoor magazines, were collected in 3 volumes as "Stories of the Old Duck Hunters", "More Stories of the ODHs" and (I think) "Last Stories of the ODHs".  About half the stories are hunting, half are fishing, mainly on the Brule.  Then there was a fourth volume, "Lost Stories of the ODH", which was stuff they missed the first time thru. Gordon MacQuarrie is my favorite fishing author.  Traver and Gierach and others get as good occasionally, but every MacQuarrie story is excellent.  Henry VanDyke is a close second.   Frank Stetzer                        "…a cheerful comrade is better Employed by, but not speaking for     foot-warmer."  Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA     "Fisherman’s Luck", 1899. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

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When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

Its a good bet that it was Gordon MacQuarrie. Check out this book (info from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1572230258/t/002-4166657-7704468) I got this book for Christmas and have read it twice already. Jim Fly Fishing With MacQuarrie by Zack Taylor, Gordon MacQuarrie List: $19.50 Our Price: $13.65 You Save: $5.85 (30%) Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days. Hardcover Published by Willow Creek Pr Dimensions (in inches): 0.97 x 10.26 x 7.23 ISBN: 1572230258 — Jim Jacoby Mt. Horeb, WI To send a reply, remove "-take_this_out-" from the address.

Response:

When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.  

Beats me!  I used to fish the brule a lot when I was a kid, and learned to flyfish there. To me it still stands as one of the most beautiful trout rivers on this planet – absolutely gorgeous.   I don’t reacll anyone writng about it at length.  There has been an article or two, and honorable mentions in guidebooks. It was in it’s time VERY popular nationally.  Teddy Roosevelt fished the Cedar Island water.  Calvin Coolidge liked the Brule so much they named the hwy that follows it south from US 2 after him.  Dwight Eisenhower had friends with a house at the lower end of Big Lake, and fished there often. I suspect that many other notables fished there too. If there is a book out there that speaks of the Brule, I’d love to find a copy. BTW:  what prompted this teacher to use that book.  Why did it stick with you?  have you ever been there?  A thread on the Brule would be a pleasant diversion – I do have a story or two of my own about her. </chaz

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Perhaps we had the same teacher.  My fourth grade teacher read me "Rascal", by Sterling North.   This is a heart-rendering book set in Southern Wisconsin, during the 1910’s, about a boy and his pet racoon.  Part of the book relates the wonderful trip that Sterling and Rascal had to northern Wisconsin, much of it along the Brule.  I recently read the book to my children and they love the story as much as I did then and still do now.  A definite top ten book in my life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books. — jm

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Thanks for the help from folks.  To answer Chaz’s questions.  I think he read from it because he loved fishing.  I think I remember it because it sounded like such a great place and it was in Wisconsin.   My question was prompted because I work at Wisc Public Television and we are working on a show about fishing in Wisconsin for Aug 99 and the Brule will be featured in the show.   jm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW:  what prompted this teacher to use that book.  Why did it stick with you?  have you ever been there?  A thread on the Brule would be a pleasant diversion – I do have a story or two of my own about her. </chaz

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gordon MacQuarrie stories, published in the 40’s and 50’s in outdoor magazines, were collected in 3 volumes as "Stories of the Old Duck Hunters", "More Stories of the ODHs" and (I think) "Last Stories of the ODHs".  About half the stories are hunting, half are fishing, mainly on the Brule.  Then there was a fourth volume, "Lost Stories of the ODH", which was stuff they missed the first time thru. Gordon MacQuarrie is my favorite fishing author.  Traver and Gierach and others get as good occasionally, but every MacQuarrie story is excellent.  Henry VanDyke is a close second. Frank Stetzer                        "…a cheerful comrade is better Employed by, but not speaking for     foot-warmer."  Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA     "Fisherman’s Luck", 1899. When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books. — jm

This is my first post in a NG.  Absolutely, yessir, right on, AMEN. MacQuarrie is without peer.  Every one of his short stories a classic. I fished the Bois Brule in Northwestern WI (not to be confused with the "Border Brule" in Upper Michigan) for the first time last summer.  It was just great visiting the places MacQuarrie mentions in his writings.  It was like visiting an old friend.  I will be back again this year.  Then maybe someday the Roaring Fork and Frying Pan in CO and maybe someday the Yellowstone area with all the great spots out there.   Then maybe ….?

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<snip   My question was prompted because I work at Wisc Public Television and we are working on a show about fishing in Wisconsin for Aug 99 and the Brule will be featured in the show.   jm

Kewl! If you have any say in what gets filmed take a look at the water around Cedar Island.  Used be a resort/lodge – lately owned by the Ordway family.  Classic, beautiful trout water.  I used to sneak into the lower end when I was a kid, and fish my brains out. Teddy Rooselvelt fished there.  Stories tell that before teddy arrived, the folks at the hatchery downriver in Brule netted out a bunch of big brood fish they usually kept in a big pool, put them in one of the rearing runs and starved them for a couple days.  The day before The Man arrived at Cedar Island they turned these hungry monsters loose in a side channel with pools the lodge owners had dug for their guests.  The President would be assured of "good fishing". Another good run would be just below Big Lake.  Wildcat Rapids.  There’s no public access to this water except by canoe, so it won’t be real crowded.  This was my favorite stretch as a kid.  The Caretaker for one of the properties there was a friend of my Grandpa’s and would let us in when the owners weren’t around.  I’d give my eyeteeth to get back in there, I can tell you.  In fact there could be an angle here – local boy returns to his favorite water after 30 years – hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm – pay my way out and I’ll talk to my agent;-).  After we’re done filming, we’ll ditch the camera ops and I’ll take you over to the White. And I’d love to see your show. </chaz

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This is a copy of a press release about a Wisconsin fishing program in current production.  If you have stories or if you know great story tellers, we’d like to see and hear it.  Get your hands on a video camera and follow the instructions below.  Thanks.   xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :- xxx :-  xxx :-  

FISH TALES SOUGHT FOR Wisconsin Public Television SPECIAL         It’s been said that every angler has a great story to tell, and Wisconsin Public Television wants to hear yours!         WPT is preparing a special on fishing in Wisconsin that will air in August 1999.  As part of the effort, we’re seeking fish stories from anglers all over Wisconsin.         "We’re looking for all kinds of tales," says producer JoAnne Garrett. "Not just the stories about the biggest fish or the longest struggle, although we’d like those, too.  We also want to hear about how fishing helped form family bonds and family memories, stories about fishing that touch the heart."         Tale spinners with humorous stories also are sought.         Stories should be documented on VHS tape with a video camera.  Send tapes to: Fish Tales, c/o JoAnne Garrett, Wisconsin Public Television, 821 University Ave., Madison WI 53706.  Deadline is Sept. 1.  If you want your tape returned, please enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Jon Miskowski Wisconsin Public Television

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Question:

Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

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Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

Hi Steve I recently fished there and the fishing was good. I didn’t use a guide but I’m sure you can find a guide by clicking on my web page and then on the fishing reports. There is a whole section on New Mexico. From there it’s just a matter of checking the different report and the organizations who supply them. Good luck & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

Hi Fisherfolks! One of my friends is going to a family reunion near Charma, New Mexico. He says the Brazos River is near there. He would like to try fly-fishing again while he is there. He used to flyfish as a kid, but let it go as an adult, and would like to find a guide who can help him get reacquainted (sp?) with it. Can anyone help with this? Please E-mail me your response. Thanks for the help! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

I don’t know about the Brazos but the Chama, the Rio Grande, the Cimmaron and other N New Mexico streams and rivers offer great fishing.  Your friend might contact Van Beacham at Los Rios Angler in Taos (not too far from Chama by western standards).  LRA phone number is (505)758-2798.  Los Pinos in Albaquerque (505) 884-7501 or High Desert Angler in Sanat Fe (505) 98 TROUT –don’t you hate look for those letters?– might be able to suggest or provide guides.  The book Flyfishing in Northern New Mexico is great if you friend doesn’t really need a guide. John

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Question:

Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

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Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

Hi Peter I’ve cast both rods and they are fine. To me the travel rod seemed slightly faster but that could just be my immagination. They are both fine rods. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Peter, I can’t give you a comparison as I don’t have both rods, however I do have the 5/6 St Croix travel rod. It compares favorably with my Sage 2 piece rods, which are the LL series. Mine is going into it’s 3rd season now, and I have no complaints whatever, in fact, I’m thinking of getting their 3/4 wt travel rod as well. Best buy on the market for my money.  Good luck. — Frank Church Elkhart, IN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

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Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

I’ve been using the St. Croix pack rod exclusively for 4 years now.  It is ideal anywhere, anytime.  Really has a lot of power for shooting into the wind also.

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Question:

: I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you                        <clip<clip<clip : has since been taken over by animal "rights" types. : For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm : "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of : 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington : state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each : campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional : stewardship of state wildlife managers. : Americans for Medical Progress, the key national research advocacy group : that monitors the animal rights agenda, predicted the HSUS ballot          <clip<clip<clip : and laboratory animal issues and other issues that are appropriate" in the : future."… There was an initiative here in Michigan this last election dealing with the taking of bear over bait or with hounds.  The initiative would have banned both practices. When I found out what was  behind this initiative, it became clear to me it was nothing more than an anti-hunting measure.  The person behind getting it on the ballot claimed it would help bear hunting because it would license more hunters to get the same harvest.  Well, it would also have banned bear hunting during anytime in which baiting for any other specie was allowed. Since we have a deer season that runs from October first to the end of of December, there wouldn’t really be any time to have a bear season. There were a couple of other issues that indicated to me that this whole thing was vacant of anything substantive and was just an anti-hunting measure. Fortunately, it was defeated *SOUNDLY* and another measure passed that gives wildlife management to the professionals. PETA and apparently HSUS supported the initiative. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University

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My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal.

In my view of the universe, the achilles heel of this legislation is in the fact that it takes "wildlife management" out of the hands of the professionals (ie. Departments of Fish and Game/Wildlife [admittedly an arguable statement, but certainly not improved upon by asking Joe/ Jane-weaned-on-Disney-Classics to take up this responsibility]).  Why do we believe that Fish and Game managers allow detrimental (some would claim "cruel’) practices to continue despite convincing evidence "that even a layman can understand"?  Could it be that the issue is more complex than we appreciate?  Let the wildlife management community do their job.  We should be able to make input into the decision making process.  But, let’s not take the decision making out of the hands of the trained professionals until they give us cause. Clearly, with 27 ballot initiatives on the Oregon ballet this year, the initiative process is being abused.  I always ask myself– "Is this a matter that requires a change to the state constitution, with all the attendant costs, to address the issue?"   The answer is usually, "No". I guess it goes back to the thread about big government vs. individual responsibility.  But, in reverse!  Now were talking about big government (ie. the voting owners of the government) trying to dictate how the little wildlife management community (probably a government agency working with state schools) carries out its responsibilities. Life is weird when you’re left-handed! Charley

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First of all, I actually read the initiative.  Unfortunately I don’t have a copy here in front of me, so this is from memory.  One of the local papers had an editorial slamming the initiative because it didn’t "Outlaw" the practices, just made them illegal for common folk. The text of the initiative stated (not a quote, but the gist) that Wildlife agents or their assigns could use bait or hounds to hunt down and kill problem bears.  Read "bears that are annoying people".  Sort of gives the lie to the idea that the practices are just tooooo barbaric and unfair. It stated that bait could be used to attract bears for "research purposes," whatever that means.  (But I thought that we didn’t want the bears to get used to people feeding them…) Anyone who has ever hunted bear in Western Washington brush knows that the traditional method of controlling bear numbers (sport hunting) just went out the window.  Incidental kills simply will not keep pace with population growth.  Ain’t no way you’re going to be able to target an area and reduce the bear population without resorting to bait and/or hounds. Well, maybe poisoned poodles……no wait, that’s bait…… Of course we could mount a multimillion dollar campaign to supply the bruins with condoms. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds. Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  

In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

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     < snip "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts.

Hi Jim, The Washington State initiative is the only one I know about.  It only prohibits bear baiting and hound hunting for cougars.  I don’t hunt but "some of my best friends . . .".  Many hunters supported the initiative but the anti crowd used wild and false statements (along the lines of "they wanna take away your right to hunt, they wanna take away your way of life") in their attempt to defeat the initiative.  Fortunately, the public saw through their BS and passed it. My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal. August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: alt.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: AM Construction   In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for   bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these   techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and   presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.     Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.     Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do   it for sport, and it generates revenues.   Steve

OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds.   Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations. In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

And don’t get caught with a trap. I hear that the next election, they are going after using hooks on fish. Paul

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In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.   Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.   Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do it for sport, and it generates revenues. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers. For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,       -tgades tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

The other method they use is to create paranoia through undercover fanatical defenders of the insane under the guise of "I’m just sticking up for the minorities no matter how ludicress it sounds". Scully and Mulder will expose your devious plot.  You don’t fool me! Mike

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

Response:

  I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers.

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

You might want to re-read the the ballot question carefully. Question 1 in Massachusetts was advertised to outlaw the use of spring traps in the state. At the End of the lengthy ballot question it also read that the laws are to be changed to allow non sportsman(AKA ARA’s) to serve on the board that governs hunting and fishing in this state. Unfortunatly all the TV ads showed thirty year old footage of animals including household pets caught in the traps with no mention of the second part of the question and question 1 passed by a 3-2 margin. Hopefully this can be changed before the ARA’s take over the board and try to ban hunting and fishing in this state.(Don’t think it can’t happen!!)

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thing of it is, all this competitive junk we heap upon our pursuits more often than not will keep us from enjoying them fully. Don’t worry about your ‘level’, answer the question ‘Am I having fun ?’ If yes, then keep doing it ! An interesting aside, I was recently approached to run a FFing school and was kind of uneasy about it, though I didn’t know why. This string answered my question, think I’ll pass !                                               jc COME ON!    jeeze!   you guys are relentless!  The level thing was obviously (to me) a tongue in cheek post concerning the realization that that you really *are* here to be in the moment and enjoy your surroundings : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus…   If you guys would stop trying to be so damned elitist, you would see that half the posts you flame are posts you would agree with if you would take the time to read them.

Congratulations, You have demonstrated a command of the language which may be unobtainable by the "elitists".  Words do have meaning.  Reading is such hard work. Dennis

Response:

: I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I : realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: : 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment : 2)catch lots of fish : 3)catch a large fish : 4)catch lots of large fish : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… I’m at all these levels, I love to fish and catch fish, whether it’s tarpon in Florida or bluegill down the road, or just watching a trout feed and not wetting a line.  Why limit yourself.  I will fish for anything, anywhere, anytime and enjoy it. John

Well said! Jack

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How many of you were ever new to flyfishing? Do you remember that first stike, how the excitement surged as you "swung and missed". And that rush as you clumsily horsed in you first fish. And what about the satifaction as you let that first big brute go after a battle well fought. Let us not loose sight of why we fish…That big chess game we play with Mother Nature. Instead of limiting the players, why not educate them on how the "game" is played. Anyone who wants to enjoy this wonderfull sport of Flyfishing should be able to WITHOUT the harassment of others. Maybe a helping hand should be extended instead of a judgemental finger. Dana Clark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pavlov) writes: : : tim:  look, why don’t you cut folks like the originator of this thread : a little slack.  he did nothing to deserve your relentless sarcasm, … : Maybe everyone is getting a little touchy.  I don’t see how Tim’s posts reflected on the originator of the thread.  The one that you quoted was a response to someone else altogether.  greg pavlov

It never fails to amaze me that regardless of the hobby, there are those who use their proficiency as a weapon to downgrade those who are less accomplished.  When I first got into photography (prior to the wonders of the internet) I ran into the same smug and demeaning attitude I find on this forum on occasion.  Let’s face it, after A River Ran Through It was released thousands of newcomers became enamoured with flyfishing.  Some of these people are just trendy types who confuse fishing with ownership of all the toys.  They will never really appreciate the joy of standing in a stream and taking it all in. Most of these people will fish awhile and then put their equipment in the closet along with the remains of their other short-term obsessions.  On the other hand, there are those who seriously enjoy the experience and who plan on spending the next several years learning flyfishing and being responsible in what they do.  Oldbies should take the time to learn the difference. Bo Johnson

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Dear Gentlemen;         If I may expand this idea of "the clothes make the man": Sure, there are a lot of middle-aged and younger flyfisherman with the newer more technologically developed gear, but look at where 4-wheel drives have gone.  Who would have ever though a uper-mid. class house wife would lust after a Chevy Blazer, for heaven’s sake!  There are a lot of established F.Fisherman here in the east who don’t have a lot of money and who persue their sport with the single-midedness of an olympic athelete.  They welcomed me to thier waters, (if not thier ranks, yet), and gave me the info I neede to catch fish.  None of these guys act in a demeaning way if you do not have the best equipment.  If you have the *right* equip., that is important.  They know what will catch trout.  They also know that just having the right equip. guarantees nothing.  Stuff works or it doesn’t.  Sometimes, no matter how good you rod is, well, trout can’t read, and they have no concept of money.  Some fantastic F.Fisherman from my home area, NW PA, have rather inexpensive glass rods and cheap reels.  They learned long ago that the flyline and the presentation of a fly which the trout *might* take are the most important factors.  We cannot get on people’s cases about equipment.  Technique will be lost.  I honestly need better technique.  I know I don’t do what I should as well as I should, but expensive equipment (or new) will not help me.  Overall, I have found that the oldest of the order are the most accepting of new blood.  They are less competetive for fish.  I owe them tremendously.                   Sincerely;                 Jason Beary

Response:

Another level altogether: when you take your neighbor’s kid out because he/she looks a little down.  You leave your rod behind so you can concentrate on helping this youngster have the best time he/she possibly can. — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster —–BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—– Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDtvLEAAAEEAKAC21G2Be0K0DMgjLpxrwLmsYfCz8rWcfgyABjr3Ryfk1dO nV7fFFpUF3xohR7die+/B2V9oqRQzTLeSF2ECKlsTY/yUyw2kn+P2ju1umh4Fwzd cVTvc+H69q1+Ft3kmw/PE0Pan+g0PUGGJ43stw3q4OgBHdixbRd/f9giJFDxAAUR tCZKYW1lcyBBLiBGb3N0ZXIgPGZvc3RlckBjcy51aWRhaG8uZWR1PokAlQMFEDD8 ReEXf3/YIiRQ8QEBFrAD/2AFuRWcD/3MENC3qJMC/Or1qxknjkK7Uv+TDf2LHPOY GHBbG9PyWuXQ8of0Dd+JYwf/tzlO9Yk1s1zTdikfriak21FW0bCokxDIhA3myppZ IZDWVA9CyvDYHuP5Ii1NkBvocab813JzDLZA+0iVN5sebGb9zSXR4Za47hlriHeP =RDHK —–END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—–

Response:

"Another level altogether: when you take your neighbor’s kid out because he/she looks a little down.  You leave your rod behind so you can concentrate on helping this youngster have the best time he/she possibly can." This person is a "master" fly fisher. We all concentrate on our equipment, where we fish, how many fish we catch and so on. After many years we reach a level where we own fine quality equipment, we’ve fished all of the popular waters for a variety of species, and we’ve caught more fish than we can remember – and probably fewer than we sometimes profess. At this time we are regarded by our peers and ourselves as accomplished and notable fly fishers. But, until you take the time to pass along you knowledge, in a gentle and patient manner, you have not mastered the sport. Congratulations on reaching this ultimate plateau.

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I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment 2)catch lots of fish 3)catch a large fish 4)catch lots of large fish 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus…

Is it possible that there is a (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Rowing my little dory on trappers lake and seeing all of the cutts in the gin clear water with no desire for… Dooo Dooo Dooo…. …ripping lips. Tim Walker

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: (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. — Jeff Smith                                     Graduate student http://www.msc.cornell.edu/~jeffs         Cornell University, Ithaca, NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. Nah… But I’d like to see… rec.outdoors.flyfishing.lets-put-the-fishing-back-in-flyfishing rec.outdoors.flyfishing.is_fashionable rec.outdoors.flyfishing.natural_order_is_extinct rec.outdoors.flyfishing.C&R.might_as_well_stock_the_olympic_sized_pool rec.outdoors.flyfishing.pensive rec.outdoors.flyfishing.binaries.pictures.erotica.trout.tasteless Tim Walker

tim:  look, why don’t you cut folks like the originator of this thread a little slack.  he did nothing to deserve your relentless sarcasm, which is simply becoming tiresome to many of us who might even agree with some of your positions.  if you want to engage in competitive verbal abuse, pick on someone your own size.  just email me or fletcher or jeff smith, etc., when you feel froggy.  meanwhile, let the newbies and the innocents alone to do their walden/thoreau thing in peace. a. wayne harrison

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: : : (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? : : Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" : because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. : : Nah… <blah, blah, blah : Tim Walker Tim… *yawn* oh, nevermind. -chuck o. —

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I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment 2)catch lots of fish 3)catch a large fish 4)catch lots of large fish 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… Am I alone, or have others experienced this with their own fishing?? Oh yeah, I’m the guy who started the thread about discovering "slower" rods and increasing my enjoyment of the sport 10 fold… Dennis

Response:

: I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I : realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: : 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment : 2)catch lots of fish : 3)catch a large fish : 4)catch lots of large fish : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… : Am I alone, or have others experienced this with their own fishing?? : Oh yeah, I’m the guy who started the thread about discovering "slower" : rods and increasing my enjoyment of the sport 10 fold… : Dennis Yea, I’ve reached level 5 too… But I skipped levels 2, 3, and 4. -chuck o. (not joanne b.) OST, maybe I did attain level 3 (w/o attaining level 2, of course)… depens on your definition of "large." —

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: (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays.

Nah… But I’d like to see… rec.outdoors.flyfishing.lets-put-the-fishing-back-in-flyfishing rec.outdoors.flyfishing.is_fashionable rec.outdoors.flyfishing.natural_order_is_extinct rec.outdoors.flyfishing.C&R.might_as_well_stock_the_olympic_sized_pool rec.outdoors.flyfishing.pensive rec.outdoors.flyfishing.binaries.pictures.erotica.trout.tasteless Tim Walker

Response:

: But I’d like to see… : rec.outdoors.flyfishing.binaries.pictures.erotica.trout.tasteless What would be in this group… the 4 inchers or the 10 inchers? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Congratulations on attaining that state.  Welcome to the group of flyfishers that see the spiritual aspect of flyfishing.  Not only see it, but practice it. I too progressed through the process. Level 5.  Jonathan Livingston Seagull wondered what level is next. JJ

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : : (6) Be near water dreaming of the fishes with no intention of doing : : anything to them, but knowing that you could, if you wanted to..? : : Tim, maybe you should start an RFD for "rec.outdoors.stop-fishing" : because that’s what you seem to advocate nowadays. : : Nah… <blah, blah, blah : Tim Walker Tim… *yawn* oh, nevermind. -chuck o. —

Go Tim! Go!

Response:

WHAT IS IT WITH SOME OF YOU GUYS/GALS?  You were new to the sport at one time so why not give a lot of newbies a little slack?  We may be newer to it than you but we certainly do not come to it with any less honorabel intentions.  We too love the outdoors and the total experience.  We too love the idea of learning to excel at the sport.  SO, PLEASE forgive us if we take a spot on the water once in awhile.

It’s concepts like being at a "level" that make me feel like joining Tim Walker sometimes. There seems to be this "karate school" mentality about; white belt, yellow belt, black belt etc. that people need to attach to everything. It’s as if we need a constant reassurance of our self worth. The twisted thing is, fishing has traditionally been a place to get AWAY from this crap, it’s a mental state where you just exist as a part of the water. It’s inner peace. If it’s there for you, it’s there regardless of your ability. When I started FFing it was like 1967, and I used to fish in the ocean for pollock, mackerel, cod and the occasional sea raven, when is like a sea robin that inflates when out of the water, we used to call them ‘grubbies’. It was a delight for me to catch anything then. I never thought of a grubbie as being inferior to a striper, and had never heard of tarpon, bones, etc. Now I catch mostly stripers & blues, but this summer I was standing on the dock at our marina just dangling a clouser in a couple feet of water and up comes this mass of weeds – no it’s a grubbie! and arcs under the fly, returning to the piling he lived at. I was thrilled, by a ‘trash’ fish. The thing of it is, all this competitive junk we heap upon our pursuits more often than not will keep us from enjoying them fully. Don’t worry about your ‘level’, answer the question ‘Am I having fun ?’ If yes, then keep doing it ! An interesting aside, I was recently approached to run a FFing school and was kind of uneasy about it, though I didn’t know why. This string answered my question, think I’ll pass !                                                 jc

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I have to confess, I’m a little surprised at the simplistic ideology being embraced in this thread.  To believe that any pursuit in life is a straight-line progression from crude to intellectually and spiritually superior is a little naive.  I have fished for 35+ years, 24 of those as a fly-fisher, and I have days when I just want to be out in the environs and every- thing else is secondary and days when catching a fish is almost a holy quest.   It depends on a lot of factors.  How long since the last time I was out?  Who am I with?  Have I ever fished this body of water before?  What kind of reputation does this water have?  Did I get a chance to tie any of those secret weapon flies I’ve been telling all my friends ‘can’t miss’?  How good am I feeling about myself this week?  It’s too complex to reduce to "I went though stage 1 in 1974, stage 2 in 1976, etc." I guess, to me, fishing is a form of play.  The child in me wants to be mature and philosophically superior.  But, it’s just a child and is too busy enjoying the pursuit to spend the time and energy analyzing its motives.  When it all comes together and I rise to that ‘higher plateau’, I enjoy the smug feeling.  And, when I’m in my neanderthal frame of reference, I enjoy that too. Just so there is no mistake– I always protect the resource to the best of my knowledge and ability.  I have removed many thousands of yards of monofilament from streams and beaches in my 35+ years. I never go into the woods that I don’t take a trash container and return with any trash I see, can reach, and can carry.  My sons were a little upset when they realized not everyone had a dad that made them pick up trash in the woods.  But, that’s just one of the rules of the game, as I play it! Tight lines and Happy times! Charley

Response:

WHAT IS IT WITH SOME OF YOU GUYS/GALS?  You were new to the sport at one time so why not give a lot of newbies a little slack?  We may be newer to it than you but we certainly do not come to it with any less honorabel intentions.  We too love the outdoors and the total experience.  We too love the idea of learning to excel at the sport.  SO, PLEASE forgive us if we take a spot on the water once in awhile.

Response:

: I’ve been flyfishing for more than a decade, and a couple of years ago I : realized I had reached the fifth level of flyfishing. The levels are: : 1) catch a fish with this hard to operate equipment : 2)catch lots of fish : 3)catch a large fish : 4)catch lots of large fish : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus… I’m at all these levels, I love to fish and catch fish, whether it’s tarpon in Florida or bluegill down the road, or just watching a trout feed and not wetting a line.  Why limit yourself.  I will fish for anything, anywhere, anytime and enjoy it. John

Response:

The thing of it is, all this competitive junk we heap upon our pursuits more often than not will keep us from enjoying them fully. Don’t worry about your ‘level’, answer the question ‘Am I having fun ?’ If yes, then keep doing it ! An interesting aside, I was recently approached to run a FFing school and was kind of uneasy about it, though I didn’t know why. This string answered my question, think I’ll pass !                                            jc

COME ON!    jeeze!   you guys are relentless!  The level thing was obviously (to me) a tongue in cheek post concerning the realization that that you really *are* here to be in the moment and enjoy your surroundings : 5)just go fishing and soak in the experience, catching fish just a plus…  

If you guys would stop trying to be so damned elitist, you would see that half the posts you flame are posts you would agree with if you would take the time to read them.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to confess, I’m a little surprised at the simplistic ideology being embraced in this thread.  To believe that any pursuit in life is a straight-line progression from crude to intellectually and spiritually superior is a little naive.  I have fished for 35+ years, 24 of those as a fly-fisher, and I have days when I just want to be out in the environs and every- thing else is secondary and days when catching a fish is almost a holy quest.   I guess, to me, fishing is a form of play.  The child in me wants to be mature and philosophically superior.  But, it’s just a child and is too busy enjoying the pursuit to spend the time and energy analyzing its motives.  When it all comes together and I rise to that ‘higher plateau’, I enjoy the smug feeling.  And, when I’m in my neanderthal frame of reference, I enjoy that too.

Dear Sir, You have summed up quite elonquently what I meant by spirituality.  I don’t recall writing the word "Superior".  I must clarify that my intention was not to convey a sense of superiority.  But, wanted to convey that the whole process represents spiritual growth.  There is no elitism here…..elitism has made me puke for years. JJ

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Question:

As a promotional offering we are giving away blueblock sunglasses FREE! These glasses have the same type of lenses as the BLUEBLOCKERS(r) sold on TV for over $19.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. These glasses are GREAT for sports activities! You’ll find us at: http://www.flanet.com/~coolshad How can we do this? We are basically trying to attract attention to our new web site, and we are convinced you will like our more upscale glasses enough to make the "loss leader" worthwile for us. Give it a try!

Response:

As a promotional offering we are giving away blueblock sunglasses FREE! These glasses have the same type of lenses as the BLUEBLOCKERS(r) sold on TV for over $19.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling. These glasses are GREAT for sports activities! You’ll find us at: http://www.flanet.com/~coolshad

You Orvis people will stop at nothing…

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Has anybody ordered these? Let’s hear a report.

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writes: You Orvis people will stop at nothing…

That’s a bad wrap!  Orvis has nothing to do with it.                                         Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

anyone have current conditions on knights ferry area of stanislaus thanks in advance

Response:

Hey Ken , are you out there…? You should try Ken Lindsay at flyfishing online.  He will surely be able to help you out. I can’t find his address or # right now but he should be listed. Cheers — gp

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(Carlton Fung) writes: anyone have current conditions on knights ferry area of stanislaus thanks in advance

Yes,  it’s closed right now.  Opens back up the first of the year.  That section of the river is closed between Oct. 15th and Jan. 1st each year to allow the salmon to make their spawning run.  I believe the upper part of the Stan around Big Trees is still open, but you need to check the reg’s to be sure.

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check the regs – I believe the Stanislaus is closed until the end of the   year for the salmon to spawn.         gr

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I beleive the upper part of the Stan closes November 15.–Crashjibe

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Will be in L.A. last two weeks in January.  Would greatly appreciate any and all information and recommendations on good fishing within a one day range of LA. city limits

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writes: Will be in L.A. last two weeks in January.  Would greatly appreciate any and all information and recommendations on good fishing within a one day range of LA. city limits

Ocean or freshwater. Fly fishing only?

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Question:

On Saturday Jan. 1 at noon my brother and I put up two batches of beer. One is an export pilzner and the other is a lager. 18 hours later, both fermenters took off for the moon, bubbling their little air locks so actively that it reminded us of an aquarium filter bubbler. At one point the plizner blew all the water out of its air lock and we got some yeast foam up into the base of the air lock tube.  Both had slight, minor leaks of foam at a couple of points on the bucket lid, but they seem to have sealed themselves up nicely. Whew!  I don’t know what we did to these two batches to get such active fermentation.  Maybe it was the use of dried malt extract instead of sugar or a second can of malt.  Maybe the yeast was especially active, even though we used the cheapest stuff we could find at the brew supply store [M&F Ale dried yeast, 2 packs per batch-1 pack each was rehydrated and the other packs were used dry.] Well, it’s very exciting and impressive to watch the forces of nature at work. Frank

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On Saturday Jan. 1 at noon my brother and I put up two batches of beer. One is an export pilzner and the other is a lager. 18 hours later, both fermenters took off for the moon, bubbling their little air locks so actively that it reminded us of an aquarium filter bubbler. At one point the plizner blew all the water out of its air lock and we got some yeast foam up into the base of the air lock tube.  Both had slight, minor leaks of foam at a couple of points on the bucket lid, but they seem to have sealed themselves up nicely. Whew!  I don’t know what we did to these two batches to get such active fermentation.  Maybe it was the use of dried malt extract instead of sugar or a second can of malt.  Maybe the yeast was especially active, even though we used the cheapest stuff we could find at the brew supply store [M&F Ale dried yeast, 2 packs per batch-1 pack each was rehydrated and the other packs were used dry.] Well, it’s very exciting and impressive to watch the forces of nature at work.

If you really want to be impressed, next time ferment in a glass carboy (with a blow-off of course). The violent churning of the beer as it ferments never ceases to amaze me. –Russ

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One is an export pilzner and the other is a lager. [M&F Ale dried yeast...]

Not to be picky, but you’re not making a lager if you’re using ale yeast… =S — =Spencer W. Thomas              |  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704    "Genome Informatician"     |  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109

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Question:

Any west coast trail experts out there?  Please feel free to answer some, all, or none of these questions.  I have read the Sierra Club guidebook, now I’m looking for a little more personal and/or personal advice" (paraphrased quotation). I’m planning my trip in May.  Am I setting myself up for a lot of mud and rain? One book implied that the average rainfall in May is not too bad. If I hit the low tides I’m hoping to do a bunch of beach walking, so that might get rid of the mud.  Comments? I’ve got favorable tides (low tides in the afternoon) from May 13 That gives me, say, 8 days of reasonable tides for beach walking. My wife and I aren’t very good at getting up early, so an ideal tide would maybe reach it’s low at 15:00.  We’d then hike from 12:00 to 16:00 and not worry about getting caught by rising tides. It sounds like the southern section is where I’ll really apreciate low tides (to get around Owens pt, for example) so I’m thinking of flying or driving out to the Island on the 8th-10th, leaving the car in Victoria, taking the bus (or the bus and The Lady Rose) to Bamfield, starting to hike on the 12th.  Then if we spend the planned 10 days/9 nights we’ll get out on the 21st. That’ll give us the 21st/22nd to get to Victoria (is this hard?  Does the Knight Limousine Service still operate?) to reclaim our car and the 22nd to the 24th to drive back to Calgary (or fly back, sans car of course.) Sound reasonable? If you had 10 days to spend on the trail, how many of them would you hike?  Would you hike all 10 (an average of 7.5 km/day?) or would you spend a day or two in the middle somewhere just beachcoming and relaxing and seducing your spouse or S/O . (Is it *possible* to seduce your spouse or s/o if you’re both soaking wet from all the rain and you only have freeze-dried food?).  Where’s the best place for these sort of activities? Where’s the best fishing?  How can I find out more about the fishing? I’m not normally a fisherman, but hey, I’ve got 10 days.  And if I catch some fish I could even stretch our food supply to 11 or 12 days. How warm can I expect it to be? How hard is it *really* to cross Nitinat Narrows?  Does anyone actually ever have to wait for more then a day for the friendly Indians to ferry you across in May?  If so, should I hike from the south to the north so that I can relax after the crossing on the better beaches in the north half?  (Or are the better beaches in the south?) THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.  Please, if you’re too busy to answer all my questions, just email me something.  If I get enough somethings it will be better then one detailed response. (Man, am I ever looking forward to this vacation!) — "Wow, it’s like a ‘Calvin and Hobbes’ fantasy but without the "Dilbert" talking about Internet. — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — John E. Abraham                 ryryryryry   /    Mathematical Modelling ******* Current research:  Transportation and Land Use Interaction ******* trombone/piano/harmonica blues/jazz/rock player < backpacker < traveller

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People have swum the English Channel and the Nitinat Narrows would be considerably easier but the full pack would make it interesting. It is just as well I waited the 15 minutes for the boat ride.

Natural selection in action. Please DO NOT attempt to swim across Nitinat Narrows.  It is a tidal surge channel with dangerous undercurrents.  It may look relatively calm compared to the ocean nearby, but strong swimmers have died trying to cross. I have never heard of someone foolish enough to try.  Every book, map, etc. states that people have died, and it is passable only by boat.

Artificial selection in action.   Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers   {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

Response:

I’m planning my trip in May.  Am I setting myself up for a lot of mud and rain?

We went in May last year and had a great trip, not many people, only two out of six days rain and not much mud.  Saw a bear on the trail (A worry!), but none around campsites, although always hung our food. We took the Lady Rose after hitching to Port Alberni, which involved next to no waiting at the side of the road and then at the south end,the Port Renfrew Connector to Victoria. How hard is it *really* to cross Nitinat Narrows?  Does anyone actually ever have to wait for more then a day for the friendly Indians to ferry you across in May?  If so, should I hike from the south to the north so that I can relax after the crossing on the better beaches in the north half?  (Or are the better beaches in the south?)

Forget it and wait. The southern boardwalks were very slippery!! particularily for my wife who had some newer boots on; Did one nice loop ending head first in a bog! Do you have your permit yet?  They have started requiring permits since last year. May is not the most popular month and we got ours at about this time last year.  Call Pacific Rim National Park and they’ll have the number to book it. Ian McKirdy Canada Centre for Remote Sensing Ottawa, Ontario  K1S 0Y7 613 947-1318 om mani padme hum

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Be prepared for rain.  I went 2 years ago and was caught in a near hurricane which forced the park service to close the trail for 3 days.  80 MPH winds and 2-3 inches of rain per day for 3 days straight.  Climbing down those ladders, covered with moss, with rain slushing down, rungs missing, and feeling the support anchors pulling out while wearing a 55lb pack was quite a thrill!   Once the storm cleared, myself and 4 other hikers had the trail to ourselves.  Although one woman came down with a fever and had to be helicoptered out, and two other silly hikers tried to wade across the Carmanah River after the heavy rains and lost all their gear when they were swept off their feet and nearly washed out to sea.  Luckily they managed to get to the Carmanah lighthouse, where they too were helicoptered out.  (A huge sitka spruce had fallen across the cable crossing…and was the main reason for the trail closure.)  The rest of us waited out the storm, until the water level was below our ankles. (The tip in the WCT trail book about crossing at low tide is a joke if the rivers are swollen with rain.) Whenever possible, travel the beach route.  There’s a beautiful campsite at Owen’s point.  If you’re a purist hike to Owen’s instead of taking the launch.  On the other hand, don’t miss out on the bogs either.  The bogs have elevated cedar walkways for the most part. I had no trouble hiking the trail in 7 days.  But I wish I’d taken a few extra days.  In particular, there are some interesting side trails such as a primitive trail up the Carmanah Valley. The best tip I can give you is to park your car at the Northern end of the trail, and then pay $10 to the Pachenat Band to drive you to the Southern end along the backroads (takes 3-4 hours).  That way you end up back at your car when you are done. A boat is required to cross Ninstints narrows.  I had to wait 4 hours for a ride.  Although, at slack tide you may be able wave down a passing fisherman.  I think the fee was $5, and you can buy a cold beer from the chief. You can probably buy or bum salmon/crabs off the fishermen and natives.  I was offered a 10lb Coho while waiting at the Narrows. Don’t drink the water!  Watch for black bear.  Climbing rope is useful if you go off trail.  Checkout Adrenalin Surge channel if you have a death wish. Good luck and have fun!   -bill

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People have swum the English Channel and the Nitinat Narrows would be considerably easier but the full pack would make it interesting. It is just as well I waited the 15 minutes for the boat ride. I hitchhiked from Bamfield to Port Renfrew and was assured by a park staff person that it would be quite easy to do so. It took me ten rides and 24 hours and some walking to do it. Nearly everybody who came by gave me a ride but there are few people on the logging roads that connect the two places and they are working and only going to the next turnoff.

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People have swum the English Channel and the Nitinat Narrows would be considerably easier but the full pack would make it interesting. It is just as well I waited the 15 minutes for the boat ride.

Please DO NOT attempt to swim across Nitinat Narrows.  It is a tidal surge channel with dangerous undercurrents.  It may look relatively calm compared to the ocean nearby, but strong swimmers have died trying to cross. I have never heard of someone foolish enough to try.  Every book, map, etc. states that people have died, and it is passable only by boat. Dave Lee

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 Abraham) writes: I’m planning my trip in May.  Am I setting myself up for a lot of mud and rain?

I would definitely be prepared for rain and mud.  You may be lucky and hit a dry week, but spring on the west coast trail means a healthy amount of rain. It has been a very dry winter this year so it may not be as bad as normal. One book implied that the average rainfall in May is not too bad. If I hit the low tides I’m hoping to do a bunch of beach walking, so that might get rid of the mud.  Comments?

If you plan it properly you can do a lot of beach walking.  This is the most scenic part of the trip and well worth the planning it takes to get on and off the beaches at the right times.  Remember, some beaches only have one exit trail amidst very steep cliffs and if you get caught by the tide it can be a difficult situation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got favorable tides (low tides in the afternoon) from May 13 That gives me, say, 8 days of reasonable tides for beach walking. My wife and I aren’t very good at getting up early, so an ideal tide would maybe reach it’s low at 15:00.  We’d then hike from 12:00 to 16:00 and not worry about getting caught by rising tides. It sounds like the southern section is where I’ll really apreciate low tides (to get around Owens pt, for example) so I’m thinking of flying or driving out to the Island on the 8th-10th, leaving the car in Victoria, taking the bus (or the bus and The Lady Rose) to Bamfield, starting to hike on the 12th.  Then if we spend the planned 10 days/9 nights we’ll get out on the 21st. That’ll give us the 21st/22nd to get to Victoria (is this hard?  Does the Knight Limousine Service still operate?) to reclaim our car and the 22nd to the 24th to drive back to Calgary (or fly back, sans car of course.)

There is bus service back to Victoria, but I don’t remember the name of it. Hitch-hiking is also very possible to get back to Victoria. Lots of people will give rides to trail hikers.  Ten days is plenty of time to enjoy the trail with no need to rush. If you had 10 days to spend on the trail, how many of them would you hike?  Would you hike all 10 (an average of 7.5 km/day?) or would you spend a day or two in the middle somewhere just beachcoming and relaxing and seducing your spouse or S/O . (Is it *possible* to seduce your spouse or s/o if you’re both soaking wet from all the rain and you only have freeze-dried food?).  Where’s the best place for these sort of activities?

Five to six days of hiking is usually plenty to do the trail.  A nice side trip is up Nitinat river to Nitinat Lake.  You can camp beside the lake and do some fishing.  Usually very private for seduction type encounters.  The lake is tidal, but fresh water is available for washing, etc. Where’s the best fishing?  How can I find out more about the fishing? I’m not normally a fisherman, but hey, I’ve got 10 days.  And if I catch some fish I could even stretch our food supply to 11 or 12 days.

Depends on how much you carry, how much you eat, and how good a fisherman (person) you are. How warm can I expect it to be?

Cool during the day and cold at night. Probably not below 0 C however. How hard is it *really* to cross Nitinat Narrows?  Does anyone actually ever have to wait for more then a day for the friendly Indians to ferry you across in May?  If so, should I hike from the south to the north so that I can relax after the crossing on the better beaches in the north half?  (Or are the better beaches in the south?)

Don’t try to cross Nitinat narrows without a boat.  You will see what I mean when you get there.  Not a problem getting a boat ride across from the local natives.  They will offer to sell you some beer, and it will seem very tempting, especially if it is hot, but it can be very difficult to hike after drinking even one beer. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE.  Please, if you’re too busy to answer all my questions, just email me something.  If I get enough somethings it will be better then one detailed response. (Man, am I ever looking forward to this vacation!)

Its a beautiful trip.  I’m sure that you will enjoy it very much no matter what weather you encounter. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "Wow, it’s like a ‘Calvin and Hobbes’ fantasy but without the "Dilbert" talking about Internet. — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — – — John E. Abraham                 ryryryryry   /    Mathematical Modelling ******* Current research:  Transportation and Land Use Interaction ******* trombone/piano/harmonica blues/jazz/rock player < backpacker < traveller

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