Question:

    Earlier today I e-mailed Willi a picture of an attractive young lady in a library, wearing thick glasses and little else (see last weeks Boulder library thread). Willi hasn’t answered or posted anything to roff since then, so I can only assume Susan opened the e-mail and promptly killed the poor guy.              (snif)

Response:

    Earlier today I e-mailed Willi a picture of an attractive young lady in a library, wearing thick glasses and little else (see last weeks Boulder library thread). Willi hasn’t answered or posted anything to roff since then, so I can only assume Susan opened the e-mail and promptly killed the poor guy.              (snif)

Not something that Susan would give a shit about, well maybe if she found us in bed together, but a picture? You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town?  When there’s water flowing, the lower Poudre has been very good.  Lots of midges out with the fish feeding all day. The trout in the canyon although catchable are icecubes already. Willi

Response:

You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town?

Hah! Now she is after you Charlie.  You’re next on the endangered fly fisherman’s list! — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town? Hah! Now she is after you Charlie.  You’re next on the endangered fly fisherman’s list!

   Yup, I wasn’t fooled for a second. I wonder if Sue’s a very good fly fisher?

Response:

Not something that Susan would give a shit about, well maybe if she found us in bed together, but a picture?

   Well I, for one, hope she never finds us in bed together.

Response:

Not something that Susan would give a shit about, well maybe if she found us in bed together, but a picture?    Well I, for one, hope she never finds us in bed together.

ME too!!!! When I reread it after posting, I knew it didn’t sound right. Willi

Response:

You mentioned fishing.  Think you could get us on one of those stretches you have "ins" on just outside of town? Willi

  Careful, Willi.  I had the pleasure of spending last Friday evening with Charlie & Pat for a visit and supper (and a fine cigar).  The next day, Charlie took me to one of his secret fishing holes.  I caught giant bluegill, crappie, a largemouth and a couple of different species of trout.  All on streamers.  What a beautiful day.  Must have caught 20 fish (to Charlie’s 40?).  But, my shoulder may never be the same.  Put a "hitch" in it setting the hook so many times.  I tried an ice pack but the only thing that seems to relieve the hurt is some ‘ol Mil. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

I know exactly how you feel, I do this to my husband, and then I feel awful. We will go out and have a nice evening, and if I eat too much, I get angry and take it out on him.  (Although he is usually the one who orders the extra food, and when it’s in front of me, I don’t have that much willpower.) But he realizes that I do not mean what I say, and that I love him.  I think that because we are so close and comfortable with our SO we tend to go off on them more easily than we would someone else, or even ourselves, when it is really ourselves we are angry with.  I’m sure he loves you and will forgive you.  I try to not react so strongly and to hold back a little more now.  It doesn’t always work, but most times it does.  I take a second and think to myself, it’s really me I’m angry with, why should he pay.  I know you can’t see him soon, but maybe  you could send him a nice card, and write your feelings in that.  Good luck. —           -Ren

Question:

I may be attending a convention in Mesa, Arizona the last week in March and would like to know if there are any public spots for fly fishing close to Mesa?  If I can’t take my gear, how about areas close by that I could just wander around in?  Haven’t ever been to the southwest and would like to see more than just manicured parks.  Thanks for any information you can provide. Larry We give dogs love we can spare, time we can spare, and room we can spare.  In return, dogs give us their all.  It

Question:

I’m a farmer from the midwest, and I have seen this behavior many times before.  In a hoglot (it can happen with cattle also) when one pig is picked on and shows too much weakness, often many other pigs will jump in and attack it.  They will often continue until they kill the weak pig. Now the article is gone so I cannot even read it, much less respond to it.  Usually when something stinks, it needs to be aired out.

Response:

FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.

Exactly right. I have been hearing a lot about how MC ‘censored’ Ole Rupe’s article when, in fact, FAOL censored any and all opposing comments, and based on Deanna’s reply to MC, she still doesn’t see why this was wrong. If opposing views had been allowed from the beginning, this whole debate would have been conducted on FAOL, where it belonged. Just imagine if Time magazine, for instance, published this article and refused to acknowledge any opposing views, but published a weak disclaimer a few issues later. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down" ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league? Isn’t that overkill?   I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

He incited killing people based on race.   Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

He would be the last person I would invite on a hunting trip bc.

Response:

Folks Racists and their closet brethren are uniformly cowards and depend on easy prey and a wimpy defense. When they get challenged they generally run for cover. When they get their ass kicked they cry foul. When they are on top they kill and incite others to kill.  Civilized people who refuse to accept the inconvenience of the fight are walking shaky ground. Anyone feeling sorry for these assholes might try to consider how  Native American kids who accessed Ole Rupe’s racist shit felt. One of the most important lessons of the 20th Century is that racists and Nazis will use the hood at night, the gas chamber when they can get away with it and a cynical intellectualized stance when it suits them, and further, that the only effective way to fight them is to make them pay a high price for their bullshit. Good riddance, F*** Rupe and the horse he rode in on Dave

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?<

Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

Response:

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

I am not condoning censorship.  FAOL made the decision to publish the article unedited in its original form.  The article would have been just as effective with out the racial overtones.  FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.  It was only after this censorship took place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article. bc.

Response:

It was only after this censorship took

place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article.< Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league?   Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass. Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?< Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he

had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW.< In spite of the recent Ct of Appeals decision, whether or not it’s his right is still up in the air IMO.  But yeah, I was complaining about that.   Now that I’ve read it, I wish I had had the opportunity to read it BEFORE I got into this thread.  And that’s the closest thing to an apology anyone is going to get from me. <g

Response:

Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

Good point Harry. I raised a stink precisely because I do appreciate FAOL and have no desire to "unsubscribe". If the publication were of no value and little read, there would have been no outcry. I said as much to Deanna in reply to an email, I hope she takes it to heart. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I do not regret any of my actions, and would do the same thing again if necessary.  I do regret the damage caused to the site, or to people connected with it, but this is in no way my responsibility.  This is purely the result of their own actions. The decision to close is up to the publishers alone, and I have no influence in the matter.

Mike certainly doesn’t need validation from me, but I do agree with the way he handled the whole mess. He removed himself from a publication he didn’t agree with, and told people why. The situation got a bit excessive, but the publisher’s actions and responses seemed to be as bizarre as the author’s, including shutting down the site and the ‘enjoy your victory’ bullshit. Sounds like one bad association (Rupe, Deanna, the public, and Mike) just waiting to flame out…and it did. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

Response:

What’s with this "closure" of FAOL? Does that mean they’re shutting it down altogether? Why? Is this a case of the publisher "eating worms"? Will she have second thoughts? Or have all her sponsors deserted her? Tune in at 11. Seriously, folks, this is what they call a perverse result. I don’t think anyone in ROFF who was offended by the article wanted FAOL to cease to exist. Maybe a letter-writing campaign to their ex-sponsors along these lines would be called for: "I am satisfied by FAOL’s apology and retraction of the offensive article. Please continue your sponsorship of this fine web site." Not that it will do much good. One more thing. Before you start letter-writing campaigns to sponsors when you see something you don’t like on an otherwise excellent website, think about perverse effects. Wait at least of few days. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

HR, Like a spoiled little boy, he demanded that they return his ball.  If you don’t do what I want, I’ll take my ball (those precious "articles") and go home.

The analogy to the spoiled little boy and his ball is something of a stretch.  Mike’s contributions were more than a ball.  They could easily be construed as an endorsement of the site and, once the site stepped over a line to which Mike is sensitive, it’s understandable that Mike would no longer want his name associated with that site. Thanks to Mike and others of his ilk, I have not read the article.  

Mike and his ilk aren’t the only problem, here.  As I understand it, their opposing views were censored before they took additional steps. We can now only speculate how things might have turned out had opposing views been given prompt and equally prominent exposure. But even if I had, and found it racist,  I would not have demanded it’s removal.

I also wish the whole affair had been handled differently.  You may recall that I was one who opposed Mr. G’s remarks about Indians/fishing on ROFF.

Sorry.  I didn’t see those posts… But noooo, apparently I and others are not to be allowed that privilege.

It doesn’t seem possible that you believe the site in question is/was the only place on earth you could read that article.  Assuming Rupe is willing, it may be posted elsewhere.  You might even hunt Rupe up and request a copy if you’re as passionate as you sound about wanting to read it yourself.  It might even be that one of the article’s antagonists grabbed a copy and could email it to you.  But you gotta ask. The CENSORS have had their way.

I’m not arguing that point.  As I said before, I had concerns about the "censorship" aspect of the issue.  Censorship, though, isn’t always a dirty word.  You could say that I censored Larry Flint by keeping Hustler Magazine out of my house.  There were kids around. Was that kind of "censorship" a bad thing? We’ve long had laws on the books to discourage uncivil speech in public places.  It hasn’t been that long ago that a dunked boater was busted and prosecuted for cussing up a blue streak around women and kids.  Certainly you can argue that such laws infringe freedom of speech. But when you can walk into any supermarket and run a good chance of finding yourself — and your kids — in the checkout line behind somebody wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with all manner of obscenites — you have to wonder… If we now find ourselves so enlightened that such laws are an embarrasment, what remedies do you propose for those who prefer not to be accosted by uncivil speech?  Are we to reduce them to staying indoors and keeping their mouths shut?  If that’s the answer, haven’t we censored them? One of my points to which you didn’t respond was the issue of all of us using our influence to affect the world around us.  What I’m wondering about is something like this: Remember when the Exxon Valdez ran aground?  Remember Exxon’s grudging responses?  Suppose somebody had succeeded in motivating a large number of Exxon customers to protest by buying their petrol elsewhere. Would that have been dirty pool or economic terrorism? Don’t us mere citizens have a right to prod and push our world about to shape it into something we think would be better? The way I see it, freedom of speech is a door that swings both ways. That is, say what you like, but be prepared for others to respond by saying what _they_ like.  And sometimes they say it _very_ loudly. Which is what Mike did. Wes Peterson LexCraft Data Services

Response:

I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

Blaine, First of all, country of origin as nothing to do with expressing you’re own point of view. Mike did not put himself in charge of anything.  He has the legal right to express his opinion.  The publishers of the site made a business decision to put that article unedited on their commercial site.  The article would have been just as effective without those comments. When opposing points of view were expressed, they were quickly censored and removed from the public areas of the site.  Their justification was that they were off topic and inflammatory. If I go to a bookstore and pick up the latest issue of a fly fishing magazine, I can make a fair assumption that the articles enclosed will contain material relevant to the sport.  That the articles will not be intertwined with racial comments, incitement to kill someone and that 30/06 rifle rounds is inexpensive.  The same assumption should be made of an online magazine dedicated to fly-fishing. As far as I am concerned the staff of FAOL could have handled the entire situation better. The article in its original form had no business being on a commercial venue like FAOL. Based on the responses that I have received from sponsors when I sent out my email, I could surmise that they agree.   You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance bc.

Response:

Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous

viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ?< I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance< I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference. Peter

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance<

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Response:

I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy? — Charlie…

Response:

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference.<

Thanks, Peter but Christian sent me one.   Is THIS really what all the fuss is about? "With regard to native American fishing rights I hold the politically incorrect view that the only good Indian is a dead Indian. If I lived  where they gill netted steelhead I would be on the 6 p.m. news. Uncle Sam taught me how to remove problems at 300 meters." Stupid?  Yes.  Disgusting that someone would put this onto the net (or anyplace, for that matter)?  Absolutely.   I disagree totally with the ideas expressed there.  Would I bitch about them?  Hell yes.   Do I believe that Rupe (or whatever the hell his name is) has a right to express them.  Yes, I do.   On a fly fishing site?  While I disagree violently with him, his comments are related to fishing.  So why not?  It’s not like his ideas, however unpalatable, are apt to have the impact of, say, shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, now are they. With all the horrible examoles of racism that we see and have seen, frankly, this appears to me to be a tempest in a teapot. There are a lot better ways of fighting evil than writing about it on the net. But then, we’re writers, not doers, eh?

Response:

<long "final" rant snipped I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

You are entitled to your opinion, good or bad.  Your insulting generalised implications of why I live where I live are unnecessary, unfortunate, unfounded, unworthy and not a little distressing. I am not in charge of anything at all. I simply voiced a perfectly normal protest at a particularly crass example of racism, in a place and under circumstances which where extremely upsetting. Your opinion of my person is also not particularly nice, but you have every right to voice it. I will doubtless survive nevertheless. Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ? Let

Question:

I will be arriving Gatlinburg Aug. 4 in time for an all afternoon class and will be there for the rest of the week. Is anyone else going? Would like to meet to have a few beers etc. I am sure that Marc Pinsel as President and co-founder of The Classic Atlantic Brim Fly Society will call at least one meeting to do serious liver damage at one of the local bars. This is the biggest show of the year for the FFF and if you have never been to one it is something else! They seldom have the big show this far South, so it is a real opportunity for many of us. They are also having a two day long Bamboo Rod Symposium. The one I attended last year in Idaho Falls was very interesting. Big Dale

Response:

Hi Dale, Gretchen and I are leaving today in the motor home. We plan on a slow trip and a little fishing in the process. See you there. Tight Lines – Al Beatty http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

I’ll make the CABFS meetings for sure.  I’ll be setting up the conservation booth on the 4th.  And I’m really looking forward to some of the casting clinics.  If anyone is going up into the park to fish, please post.  We had a great time at the SE conclave last year, some rain, but it was a great time. Dick Whiting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be arriving Gatlinburg Aug. 4 in time for an all afternoon class and will be there for the rest of the week. Is anyone else going? Would like to meet to have a few beers etc. I am sure that Marc Pinsel as President and co-founder of The Classic Atlantic Brim Fly Society will call at least one meeting to do serious liver damage at one of the local bars. This is the biggest show of the year for the FFF and if you have never been to one it is something else! They seldom have the big show this far South, so it is a real opportunity for many of us. They are also having a two day long Bamboo Rod Symposium. The one I attended last year in Idaho Falls was very interesting. Big Dale

Response:

Question:

Mark, Stay loose and keep trying.That’s why they call it fishing and not catching. You were going to C & R anyways. Correct pressure it’s just a matter of experience. You have to take into consideration if the fish is going upstream, down strean, how much string you have out, fish size.Just hang in there,have fun.     Capt. Dan **** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ****

Response:

Not to rain on your parade, but… <heavy downpour snipped

Most of your points are well taken.   However, to make the story as interesting, yet as brief as possible, considerable details and irrelevent narrative were omitted from a long day of fishing.   Had I included everything, I have no doubt you would be impressed with our ambassadorship for fly fishing, our sportsmanship, and the number of fish hooked and played by nearby anglers whist we stood by courteously and patiently when it was our turn to do so.   You would also have been exceptionally bored.   It’s a big river; and we neither monopolized any good holes, caught all the fish, nor substantially interfered with anyone’s enjoyment of the day.   It was a fine day fishing for all; this story was but a snapshot of a moment. Lighten up, eh? If you were right, however, you’d have been right. Joe

Response:

0] : Everybody see the theme happening here?  "Put a little pressure on ‘em?"  My : story: snipped: account of fishing for goldens : Still haven’t caught my first golden.. : -Mark : — Goldens aren’t hard to catch in wilderness streams provided they don’t see you first. They are ultra spooky. The whole secret is stealth. A six incher will scarf up a #10 Royal Wulff or just about anything else in your flybox, and there will be no question of being hooked up–he’ll be on. Just keep low, behind a bush or a rock–you don’t need a fancy cast, just get the fly on the water drifting reasonably. Actually I’ll suggest 14’s and 16’s are a more appropriate for the size of the typical golden, and are taken just as enthusiastically as 10’s. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

My buddy and I were fishing the Salmon River (NY) last fall during the annual salmon run.   We were there maybe a bit late for the peak of the run, and a lot of the fish in the river had been there a while and were a bit worn out.   Not that it wasn’t fun anyway, but once in a while, we’d hook into a really fresh fish with tons of energy.   These guys would take off like a freight train, jumping and taking you well into your backing going straight upstream.   Using an 8 or 10 pound tippet on these big fish necessarily made for a long difficult fight, but we had learned from experience when we could safely "put a little pressure ‘em" and when to let ‘em run.   The spinning rod guys, of course, had a lot less trouble dragging them out with 30# mono and so were somewhat impatient, but generally courteous, when we took our time bringing one in. On the last day of our trip, I worked a faster stretch, and my buddy was working a flat stretch upstream about 50 yards.   We were both hooking up fairly often, but he was really nailing them.   Every other time I looked up there it seemed, his rod was bent over while the spinning guys stood by with their lines out of the water.   I didn’t realize how frustrated some of the other fishermen were with this arrangement until I hooked the big one. Fishing an egg pattern, I saw my line hesitate and set the hook. Instantly, the big salmon sprinted upstream, jumping three times on the way. "Fish coming up!" I yelled upstream, and a half dozen or so other fishermen obliged me by pausing their casting.   The fish was so fast and strong, I quickly decided to walk upstream after him.   He was already 100 yards away and my drag was still singing.   That’s when I saw him.   Not the fish, the guy with the net.   This fish wasn’t even close to tired, but some nut case, tired of standing aroung waiting for another fly fisherman to land a fish, charged into the river and tried to scoop him out.   As tight as my tippet was stretched, even the slightest bump with that net would have cost me the fish instantly. To my relief, he only succeeded in scaring the hell out of it and it sped across to the other side of the river.   As I’m running up the shore to stop this guy, he practically sprints across the river (no small feat) in pursuit of my fish.   He’s still too far away to stop him when the fish reaches the shallows on the far bank.   The fish still has tons of strength left when "net man" get there.   He takes one stab at the fish with the net and the fish sprints upstream again.   My line wraps around net man’s legs and that was all she wrote.   I was still too far away to even curse at the guy.   I just walked back downstream and reeled in the slack.

Response:

Everybody see the theme happening here?  "Put a little pressure on ‘em?"  My story: We were fishing in the 20 lakes basin of California.  I am new to California fishing and newer to fly fishing, I grew up in Michigan.  My buddy Paul and I had no trouble landing a couple delicious brookies the day before in the backcountry, and stocked rainbows from Saddlebag lake to days prior (my buddy Paul makes an excellent trout breakfast scramble).  But we’re really looking for the gold.. Golden Trout.  We try at several lakes and streams with no luck for goldens (just a brookie or two).. as we head further back into the backcountry, we come upon a stream that looks promising.  The bank is about 10 feet above the stream.. and we approach low as the sun is high, though not high enough for us to cast a shadow.. and we see them.  Goldens.. moving slowly left to right, slowing to inspect possible food sources (not rising) then continuing.  Since we’re backpacking, I’m using a fenwick fly/spin rod that doesn’t excel at either but packs well..  and I tie on my nymphs one by one, throwing them from the bank (I am NOT a good flyfisher.. my casts still have the grace of a collapsing bridge), staying low.. and we watch them ignore our offerings.  Paul (with only spinning gear) tosses out spinners and lures 40 feet downstream with no luck either.  After an hour or two of fruitless fishing up and down the section of stream, we quit fishing to have some burbon and nutrition.. and we watch the Goldens pass by like we’re in some kind of twisted dentist’s office.  Paul tells me about a pool he found downstream that might have a good evening bite.. so after a few hours of short hikes and exploring, I go back to camp, grab my gear and head to the pool.  Paul is already there, watching the evening rise.. wishing HE had brought his fly gear.  But Paul has proven why I like to pack with him.. he gives me first shot at the shittish rising Goldens with my fly gear.  I tie on a caddis, approach low, cast upstream.. and the fly stops dead, ripple, SET HOOK and golden on!    He jumps (yep, looks like a Golden, we estimate he’s at about 14-16"), heads upstream, yanking off my line.. all the while I’m having 2nd thoughts about my set.. the timing wasn’t great, didn’t feel real solid.  I decide, in order to make sure the hook is in, I’ll "put a lttle pressure on…" to further set the hook. Yep, game over, fishy all gone, we’re done for the evening (even though we didn’t know it at the time). Still haven’t caught my first golden.. -Mark — Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

I was guiding a client last year on the Ocanuluftee river in the smokies.The water was high and murky and I tied on one of my prince variations for him on a 5X tippet. After fishing the first eddy I put him on he asked me if this was a joke.By the third eddy he fished he changed his tune.He hooked up about three feet off the bank and said I think I’m hung up! I told him to set the hook harder! He said but I’m hung up! I said It’s a big fish buddy put it to him! He jerked the rod sharply and the fish exploded! I screamed get downstream of him before he makes his run! It was too late! The fish lipped the pool and headed into class five water.He held the rod high as the reel sang it’s song.After about 120 yards the fish parted the leader.He said I didn’t know there were fish like that up this high.I replied’ I didn’t either. Moral to the story"Never under estimate the brown trout and use 2X tippet when the water’s murky!                                                                                 Tim

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In my youth, I was a bait fisherman, just like my dad.   We were fishing the Chesapeake Bay near the Md/Va line and doing pretty well against some sea trout in about 70 ft of water.   As usual, just as the sun starts going down and the wind picks up, the fishing starts getting really good, but it’s time to go in.   Just before I reel in for the last time, I feel a bump and haul back on my rod.    I got it, but what?   Instantly it takes off south, aided by a 2 knot current.   I’m using a medium stiff spinning rod and 18-lb line, but he’s just peeling it off at high speed.   This is the fish of a lifetime.   After what seemed like a minute, but was probably only15 seconds, the line goes slack.   I’m deflated.   On reeling in, I find lots of nicks in what’s left.   Probably a big bluefish, maybe a shark, I’ll never know.   Man was that a fish. Joe

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I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales?  Herewith a modest contribution.

(Section deleted) Finally hooked a carp. I can remember fishing for Bluegill in my favorite section of Big Bear

Lake with my 3wt when I hooked into a monster.  It took about 20 minutes to get this thing close to me.  The largest Bluegill I’ve ever seen.  It was absolutely HUGE!! I wanted to keep it as I knew nobody would believe me when I told them how big. I had no net with me, after all who needs to net Bluegill.  I couldn’t get my hand around him and being a Bluegill couldn’t put my thumb in is mouth. No way to grab him !!!  Finally my 6x tippet gave way.  I dropped my rod and tried to grab with both hands, but he just slowly swam away. The following week I heard someone had caught a 4lb  9oz record the very next day. I guess you just can’t win them all. Bill

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good thread, Michael. Fishing on the Beaverhead two years ago, floating below Dillon with the pontoon boat.  Slow day in September, having to pound them up and not much sucess at that either.   Dropped a two nymph rig into a drop-off that must have been 15 feet deep, and just let it sink – fooling around, mostly.  WHAM.  Rod bends straight down (like I was jigging for 10 pound crappies or something).  Five seconds later leader pops at, of all places, the nail knot attachment to the fly line.  Lost the entire leader.  First and only time that has ever happened to me, but now I carry an extra leader. Then there was the time…… (man, I got a load of these kind of stories) Mark Faulkner

Oh Mark, you brought back bad memories.  I had been fishing the Bow River in Alberta for three days and my luck had been so-so.  it was getting dark and I worked my way up to this flat, just upstream of a spot called Policeman’s.  I could see regular rises and there was one large regular one at the tail of an almost imperceptible seam.  I drift a #14 Henryville down, the rainbow took it and headed into the current with me hanging on for dear life.  I put a bit of pressure on and ping!!!, the leader parts in the middle.  Standing there looking at half my leader, I remember stepping on it earlier when releasing a small fish.  Must have nicked it with a stud.  Damn.  Would have been the best fish I had in a while. Peter Email address hacked. Remove -delete-this- to email a reply.

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These first few aren’t huge but memorable nonetheless… I guess there’s one every season or so for me,  a brown that took a hares ear spider on one side of the river, and immediately bolted for a single snag/branch hanging into the water clear across stream and promptly wrapped the leader around it, I barely had set the hook. Same river, two years or so earlier, a rainbow picked up a damsel nymph hit the main main current, crossed the current to a backwater on the other bank 20 yards downstream leapt and hung the line up in a bush. Then there are the bruisers … usually in backwaters … I did my first and only float trip last year … what a revelation.  This damned river Goulburn is much maligned as being difficult to fish and so it is, if you are looking for a swag of fish taken in runs, glides etc. Naturally things are differnt during a hatch, then selectivbity is a problem. On that trip I was broken in a backwater on the strike to a parachute dun, guide reckons "Biig"  …hard to tell I guess, but the sight of that dun disappearing is something I won’t forget, damn fish charged it and managed to break the fly-knot on 6 lb tippet when I lifted into him. Man there is some serious recovery time needed after things like that. The best thing about that trip though was I found where the fish were, very few mid-stream, mostly backwaters and hard against the bank near overhang branches and the like.  It gave me confidence in the water I knew there where fish and roughly where … so now I fish it with a heap of confidence, knowing that patience will pay off. Two weeks after the float, I returned foot, I watched backwaters relly looked and sure enough, 2lb plus fish accessible form the bank admittedly in tricky circumstances.  I spotted a much larger brown cruising a particular back water 6 times , always he’d be coming toward me or I’d be caugth in the open and couldn’t move … on the seven occasion the wind blew and riffled the water as he swam away .. the size 14 heavy wire fiery-brown nymph was taken, I lifted and all hell broke loose in the shallow water.  I couldn’t afford to let him run at all because of logs, and you guessed it … the hook straightened.  I cursed a little and *laughed* a hell of a lot while untangling leaderr and line from around my ears and hat, checked my watch –  one cast in 3 hours and worth every last second of it. That float trip has changed the way I fish ~that~ river forever. Geez …then there a the lake fish …. Steve

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I agree, this is a great thread. Last Memorial Day, I joined my Father-In-Law on the Potholes Res. in Central Washington.  He enjoys fishing for walleye so was rigged up and trolling for them.  I personally don’t care for spiny rays so had my rod rigged with my favorite Wolly Bugger pattern. After 30 minutes the fish finder turns black with fish and I start pounding nice 14 inch rainbows.  My next hit, the reel starts screaming and I was totally unpreparred for this size of fish (even though the lake is known to have 10 pound plus rainbows in it.)   After about 20 seconds the hook pulls out.  I reel in and check my fly and leader and cast it back out.  Two minutes later, I am into another monster fish that has the reel on meltdown again. This time I was ready for it  and proceeded to adjust the drag while my Father-in-Law cranked up the downriggers and was getting to turn the boat around to give chase.   In that short period of time, the fish was within 10 feet of spooling me with the drag cranked all the way down when the fly popped loose again.  It never did slow down. Mike Wilson Fishing!! What else is there?

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I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales?

    This is a little long…    Jackson and I had spent most of the morning trying to gain access from ranchers to the river.  We knew from maps that the state had designated it "Gold Medal Water" but we were determined to get on it somewhere other than the few public acess points.     At the time Jackson was tractor salesman for Case power equipment so it seemd he was the right one to go knocking on strangers doors.  After all, they all owned tractors.  The hard part was guessing who were the Case guys and who were the John Deers!!  A fella can be kinda partial to his heavy machinery, right up there with the pickup.     And so it went – "No", after "No" after nobody home,  when finally we hit paydirt.     "Be sure to close the gate!"     Always obey this request.  We were in.  A short drive and we came upon the water – wide and slow, winding through hay fields.  We began to walk down current and came to a hard dog leg in the stream.  A nice backeddy curled against the current.  As we looked the risers became evident.  Jackson patted me on the back – a little harder than I liked, but that was OK, our mission was accomplished.     There was such an abundance of available food for these fish – terresterials and aquatics alike, that we really didn’t know what to use.  One thing was certain – it was going to be dry.     I went with a #14 irresistable and proceeded to put down every fish I cast to.  Well, not put down exactly, they would simply move five feet ahead of where I could reach after a couple of presentations.  Jackson was having the same kind of success.     I had started fishing down stream of the bend, but soon found myself standing right in it with the trout now rising behind me.  That’s when Mike (Jackson) called me.     "Jonnie boy – check this dude!"     I climbed out of the stream and walked over to him.  From where he was standing I saw nothing at first.  Then she breeched.  Such a rainbow I’d never been this close to.  The rise was stupid big.  Just a big old bug sucking spotted maw followed by the back of a buffalo and the vertical tail of a whale.     This fish was working less than two feet from shore faceing straight into the current.  The assortment of insects seemed to delight him judging by the way he steadily fed.  I tried to watch what he was eating but it was futile.  There was just too much. I actually watched this pig eat a yellow jacket.     Mike offered up the trout to me; he was going to watch.  I eased into the current no more than 20 feet down stream and waited.  I let this trout rise four or five times before even stripping out line.  I wanted a solid bead on his lie, and I wanted him happy.     My first cast was short.  I waited for one more rise and made a second.  It was perfect.  The irresistable floated happily right over his lie.  Dammitt. Again I waited for him to show.  Then I tried to time it – kind of like a surfer counting waves.     It was time.  The cast was true and it was clear – even before it happened – that this was the cast.  Mike knew it too and even called out – just before he struck – "That’s it".     He was right.     That trout took so confidently that I had to laugh.  I did.  Then I really started laughing as the fish made an immediate downstream run.  Downstream? This I was not ready for.  Don’t ask me why.  The fish swam right passed me.  I could have hit him with the rod. I stripped my wet ass off to keep the line tight and then right back out again and suddenly on the reel.  The old Medalist chugged and groaned and I suddenly realised this fish was well on it’s way to spooling me.  I clammered out of the stream and up onto the high bank.     Mr. fish was an easy 60 yards into the backing when I had this great idea. Instead of continuing the chase on foot I’d:     "Put a little pressure on him"     Famous last words.  The hook had simply pulled free.  I fell back into the tall golden grass and held my forehead.  Jackson was quick to produce a flask of good scotch.  Dam that was a good belt of whisky.   JE JE

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Wish this was mine, but it’s a good story anyway… My brother in law live in LA, and he’s a fishing nut! I took him to the quality waters here in New Mexico with a guide ’cause the water was flowing at almost 5000 cfm. We’re in Texas hole, and close to the top of the hole. He casts to the rapids, and gets a strike, a big one! He asks the guide what to do, and the guide say’s let him run. He ran about a hundred yards and tied up the line in a tree. I never heard a fly reel scream like that in my life! Sure wish it would have been me….

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Michael Goldstein wrote [great thread snipped] Long before I started fly fishing, when I was 12, I fished for bonito from a "bait barge" in Long Beach harbor.  I was fishing a live anchovy in the usual manner with no weight…just the free swimming bait fish.  (I’ve been told by my marine fishing buddies that this type of fishing is called ‘fly fishing’ … go figure). Anyway, on one particular day I was fishing with my $10 trout rod/reel spinning combo I had bought at Thrifty Drug store…You know, the cheap little spinning jobs where the line is always getting caught underneath the spool and wrapped around the axle.  (You probably have to be at least 35 years old to know the cheap little reel I’m talkin about).  Anyway, on this one particular day here I was with my bait in the water and the line caught up and wrapped under the spool in the usual fashion.  In this situation there’s nothing to do but remove the spool and unwind the tangle.  So, while I had the spool off and I’m unwrapping the line, a bonito hits…don’t know how big, but those of you who’ve caught ‘em know how they run when they hit that anchovy. So here I am, with the spool off and the fish pulling away like crazy and my trying to get control and put the spool back on … and the damn fish pulled the whole rig out of my hands and over the rail…rod, reel … everything gone. I was not a happy camper that day! —                                                       -dnc-

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales?  Herewith a modest contribution. (Section deleted) Finally hooked a carp. I can remember fishing for Bluegill in my favorite section of Big Bear Lake with my 3wt when I hooked into a monster.  It took about 20 minutes to get this thing close to me.  The largest Bluegill I’ve ever seen.  It was absolutely HUGE!! I wanted to keep it as I knew nobody would believe me when I told them how big. I had no net with me, after all who needs to net Bluegill.  I couldn’t get my hand around him and being a Bluegill couldn’t put my thumb in is mouth. No way to grab him !!!  Finally my 6x tippet gave way.  I dropped my rod and tried to grab with both hands, but he just slowly swam away. The following week I heard someone had caught a 4lb  9oz record the very next day. I guess you just can’t win them all. Bill

While liveing in San Mateo Fl. one of my neibors was going to St. Augustine with his boat to fish and asked me to go along. My only rod at the time was a bamboo 7wt 7′ and I thought a mudler minnow with a straight leader of 20lb test would work fine in salt. We were up under the bridge of lions when I thought I was bottom hung. I started to be able gently to crank in line with just a bit of trouble when this shadow started to show and my buddy asked what the hell I had. As it came up I saw the eye of the most god awful tarpon I had ever even heard of. At that point he decided this was a bit more than a minor nuisance. There was this terrific splash of water and he was gone, my fly rod was broken just above the grip and all I could do was sit there shaking, looking at the busted rod. That was a 14′ boat and that fish was at least half the boat size. That is the truth although I can understand any disbeliefe.                                                         John Popp                                                       in Sanford Fl.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These first few aren’t huge but memorable nonetheless… I guess there’s one every season or so for me,  a brown that took a hares ear spider on one side of the river, and immediately bolted for a single snag/branch hanging into the water clear across stream and promptly wrapped the leader around it, I barely had set the hook. Same river, two years or so earlier, a rainbow picked up a damsel nymph hit the main main current, crossed the current to a backwater on the other bank 20 yards downstream leapt and hung the line up in a bush. Then there are the bruisers … usually in backwaters … I did my first and only float trip last year … what a revelation.  This damned river Goulburn is much maligned as being difficult to fish and so it is, if you are looking for a swag of fish taken in runs, glides etc. Naturally things are differnt during a hatch, then selectivbity is a problem. On that trip I was broken in a backwater on the strike to a parachute dun, guide reckons "Biig"  …hard to tell I guess, but the sight of that dun disappearing is something I won’t forget, damn fish charged it and managed to break the fly-knot on 6 lb tippet when I lifted into him. Man there is some serious recovery time needed after things like that. The best thing about that trip though was I found where the fish were, very few mid-stream, mostly backwaters and hard against the bank near overhang branches and the like.  It gave me confidence in the water I knew there where fish and roughly where … so now I fish it with a heap of confidence, knowing that patience will pay off. Two weeks after the float, I returned foot, I watched backwaters relly looked and sure enough, 2lb plus fish accessible form the bank admittedly in tricky circumstances.  I spotted a much larger brown cruising a particular back water 6 times , always he’d be coming toward me or I’d be caugth in the open and couldn’t move … on the seven occasion the wind blew and riffled the water as he swam away .. the size 14 heavy wire fiery-brown nymph was taken, I lifted and all hell broke loose in the shallow water.  I couldn’t afford to let him run at all because of logs, and you guessed it … the hook straightened.  I cursed a little and *laughed* a hell of a lot while untangling leaderr and line from around my ears and hat, checked my watch –  one cast in 3 hours and worth every last second of it. That float trip has changed the way I fish ~that~ river forever. Geez …then there a the lake fish …. Steve

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I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales?  Herewith a modest contribution. I often fish a pond near my house in Princeton, NJ which contains sunnys, smallmouth, and HUGE carp, i.e. 10+ lbs.  Generally, I’ll try to catch the smallmouth, switching to the carp if I see them cruising.  But in a year of hit-and-miss trying, I’ve never gotten a carp on.  They are extremely spooky, and even if you get a nymph on their nose while they’re tailing (generally what I’m trying to do), it’s very hard to read a take. It’s late Fall, and the pond is already cold enough that the smallmouth aren’t hitting.  Rather than go home skunked, I switch to a smaller streamer that is more likely to catch a sunny (though it still might attract a bass). On the first cast of the new streamer, it stops after a short retrieve. Now, if you’ve ever fished for smallmouth you know that one of the problems with catching them is hooking them.  Their jaws are so powerful that even if you try to set the hook hard, once, they may have the fly locked in their jaws, and will spit it out after a few seconds.  So, hoping the fish might be a smallmouth, I lock the line against the rod and hit it a second time. The theory here is that, with six pound tippet, it won’t matter if I lock up against a sunny, or even a smallmouth (which on this pond rarely get bigger than 2 pounds).  But I want to make sure the hook is set. As I’m pulling on the line, I see a grey torpedo explode from the bottom of the pond near my fly.  The acceleration is so rapid that a bow wave builds up in front of it across the entire width of the pond (maybe 150 feet).  My jaw drops as I react to the awesome power display, and try to track the streak with my rod tip.  It takes me a second to realize I should release my lock on the line, but as I do, the 6 lb tippet parts. Finally hooked a carp.

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Michael Goldstein: <<I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales? (good story snipped) I was fishing a river in Maine, early in the season which means I was lobbing big streamers with a 6 weight.  I had a reel on that did not have the best drag system, and hitched into a *very* big fish.  He zoomed across the pool and was headed down-stream to the next pool when I palmed my reel — palmed it too much, that is. The tippet broke and a couple of guys near me gasped in disappointment. About 30 minutes later a local fisherman started fishing and I thought his set up strange:  He had a sinking line, very short leader, and was tying on a #10 White Wulff.  He cast into the current and when the fly was down stream he retreaved it *very* slowly.  On his second cast, He was into a big fish.  I left the water, put my rod down and watched him land a 28 inch Togue (laketrout that gets into a river).  The togue had my white Zonker in his jaw, right next to the White Wulff!  He killed the togue, tied it to his Maine basket, packed up and left.  He had his supper.   Dave LaCourse

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I often fish a pond near my house in Princeton, NJ which contains sunnys, smallmouth, and HUGE carp, i.e. 10+ lbs.  Generally, I’ll try to catch the smallmouth, switching to the carp if I see them cruising.  But in a year of hit-and-miss trying, I’ve never gotten a carp on.  They are extremely spooky, …

I’ve never caught a carp on a nymph or a streamer, only on mulberry flies. When the mulberries get ripe and drop into the water you toss a hunk of purple yarn under the tree. Some folks scatter bread crumbs on a spot for a week or two then use a "bread crumb" fly to catch carp. I don’t, I feel guilty enough about the mulberries. — Ken Fortenberry

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I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales?

We were camped at Rainbow Lake, about 10,000 ft above sea level on the Doubletop Mt. Trail in the Wind River Range. Finis Mitchell’s book claimed that Rainbow Lake was an excellent fishery. Being a flatlander I was not very good at unlocking the secrets of a high alpine lake. I tried my whole bag of lake methods and being limited to fishing from the shore, (no float tube or boat), I got discouraged and inattentive. I had a muddler minnow that I tossed purposefully but retrieved casually. On one of the strips of the retrieve, while I was planning where to make the next "perfect" cast, something hit that muddler so hard it took muddler tippet and all. I just wasn’t paying attention. — Ken Fortenberry

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I often fish a pond near my house in Princeton, NJ which contains sunnys, smallmouth, and HUGE carp, i.e. 10+ lbs.  Generally, I’ll try to catch the smallmouth, switching to the carp if I see them cruising.  But in a year of hit-and-miss trying, I’ve never gotten a carp on.  They are extremely spooky, …

Folklore says that carp can feel the vibrations you impart to the line   (movement, heartbeat and breathing). If you want to catch them, get a y shaped stick and shove the straight end into the ground. Prop up the fishing rod with the y shaped part of the stick. If you are using a fly, watch for line movement unrelated to the current flow. The subtle line movement (especially in calmer waters) around the shore will indicate a carp or sucker is on the line. When you see the movement, pick up the rod and set the hook. Failure to do so will possibly mean that your fly rod will be yanked into the water by the carp/sucker. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve never caught a carp on a nymph or a streamer, only on mulberry flies. When the mulberries get ripe and drop into the water you toss a hunk of purple yarn under the tree. Some folks scatter bread crumbs on a spot for a week or two then use a "bread crumb" fly to catch carp. I don’t, I feel guilty enough about the mulberries. — Ken Fortenberry

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I often remember the big fish that I’ve lost, especially from a mistake I made.  Any interest in exchanging the tales?  Herewith a modest contribution.

I’ve got two 12 years or so ago I was fishing the Androscoggin River somewhere near Errol, NH during the famed alder fly hatch. As dark was coming on I was fishing a nice pool and I noticed a fish sipping flies in a back eddy behind a rock, I dropped a fly on him and got a beautiful head and tail rise, to my amazement the fish was quite large, I missed him and he never came back up. The next day I got position in the same pool fairly early and just at dark there he was. I dropped my fly on him and he took it, I setup and my reel began to scream as he headed out into the main current. About 10 yards out he popped the leader. I thought well ok and then the fish leapt out of the water 4 times, each time furthur out in the river, apparantly trying to spit the hook. I esitmate the fish was between 25-30", at that time possibly the biggest trout I had ever hooked. A few years ago fishing for browns in a Maine river  at dark I cast on a sipper. I set the hook and my rod bent right to the water, the reel began to scream as the fish ran downriver. I pulled the anchor in the boat to drift with the fish as my partner manned the oars. This was the biggest fish I have ever hooked (I think) the fish stripped me to the backing, turned up stream and came off as the line went slack ( I was stripping in like a madman but not fast enough). I never saw him, just felt the power and dream of a rematch! dave

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Good thread, Michael. Fishing on the Beaverhead two years ago, floating below Dillon with the pontoon boat.  Slow day in September, having to pound them up and not much sucess at that either.   Dropped a two nymph rig into a drop-off that must have been 15 feet deep, and just let it sink – fooling around, mostly.  WHAM.  Rod bends straight down (like I was jigging for 10 pound crappies or something).  Five seconds later leader pops at, of all places, the nail knot attachment to the fly line.  Lost the entire leader.  First and only time that has ever happened to me, but now I carry an extra leader. Then there was the time…… (man, I got a load of these kind of stories) Mark Faulkner

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Then there was the time…… (man, I got a load of these kind of stories)

Yeah, me too.  The most painful fish I ever lost…. Last year I went with a friend to fish the classic chalk streams of England. One day we’re fishing the Lodden.  The water was off color that day, and nothing was rising.  So I start, like any self respecting American fisherman, working a nymph, not realizing it’s not allowed on this river. (The guide is a young chap who’s filling in for the guy who booked the trip, and he doesn’t know either.)  Anyway, so I’m fishing to a bunch of fish that have never seen an artificial nymph, and iIt’s a perfect river for this kind of fishing, as the fish have concentrated in some deep holes. In one hole, having taken a bunch of fish — easily 10 in the 2  lbs. class in less than an hour, all stockers — I see a huge shape flash on, then refuse, my bead-head hare’s ear. After a dozen casts, and no further luck, I tie on a "large olive bead head damsel nymph, tied Matuka style". In other words, a wooly bugger. Sacrilege in these parts, even where nymphing is OK. I just happened to have one in my vest, and the guide is helping my friend, so he can’t object. I feel deliciously wicked. I’m fishing on a short line on the dead drift. On the second cast the line hesitates, and I lift the rod. The resistance is so firm, I’m sure it’s bottom. But then the line starts to vibrate. It’s a bloody great fish! The line noses down, then my reel screams as the fish takes off across the pool. Then down again, there’s nothing I can do but let it run. Then upstream 20 yards, with me chasing it along the bank.  I get a good look at it, it’s a huge brown trout, at least 30"! Then across to the far bank into the reeds. I put some side pressure on him and the line goes limp! Broken off at the fly. When we were fishing drys, the guide had put on 7x tippet, and I hadn’t realized. With 2.5 pound breaking strength, I’ve been too forceful. To make it even worse, guide points out that this was undoubtedly a wild fish, since the stocked trout are rarely more than 2 pounds, or 20 inches. I feel ill, mentally replaying the fatal sideways pressure, wishing I had shortened the tippet to a 6 lbs. breaking strenght 4x.  In the stained water, nymphing, it would have been fine.   It takes me about an hour before I have the heart to fish again!

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! Just one warning from disappointed customer! I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. May this Orvis 25year quarantee means that i have to now wait for 23 years to get my rod repaired… Disappointed customer -Timo ps. IMHO No questions asked quarantees are not good for fly fishing – i’m afraid that smaller rod makers will suffer eventually since the amount of broken rods will increase when the rods gets older…

Same with me Timo, I had similar problem with Orvis in the Netherlands. Their unconditional waranty works great in USA, but outside you will have to wait about a full year to get your repair done or your rod replaced. I changed to Sage and my local dealer replaces every broken (if ever) Sage immediately and gets his from Sage within a few weeks. Ger.

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I disagree, Dave. Having broken my PM-10 9′0" 8 wgt rod two years ago, I did some inquiries and found significant turnaround time between going thru the dealer and mailing it back directly to Orvis. My shipping costs were bearable given the fact that it was the height of saltwater season, and it took only 3 weeks to get it back.  Time is money, and when it comes to my fishing time, it’s worth $1000 an hour…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it.   Dave LaCourse

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<<I disagree, Dave. Having broken my PM-10 9′0" 8 wgt rod two years ago, I did some inquiries and found significant turnaround time between going thru the dealer and mailing it back directly to Orvis. My shipping costs were bearable given the fact that it was the height of saltwater season, and it took only 3 weeks to get it back. First time I broke a rod (tip in a door – dumb), it took 4 weeks — through the dealer.  Second time (butt – fell on it — dumb) it took two weeks.  We’re about even.   Dave L.

Response:

When I needed my PM-10 9-wt replaced (I bought the rod for $145, on "clearance"), I walked into the Orvis Manchester, VT store, and the clerk walked into the back room and came out with a new rod.  I’d have to say it took about 30-40 seconds. Bob Scott Orvis fan

Response:

well that’s still better than a Reddington which is worth nothing – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Yes, I suppose the Reddington won’t be worth much either since Orvis bought them. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well that’s still better than a Reddington which is worth nothing – What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT. I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

Response:

Finally, someone who understands the truth behind these "Guarantees". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

What do you expect them to do after you paid eight times what the rod cost to build? — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

  I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod.   Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee   for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in   local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened   in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the   fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis –   it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even   willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous.

I’ve had no problem with them at all – nor has anyone I’ve ever talked to.  They are prompt and courteous.  Even so, I’d never leave a rod and not do anything about it for months.  I always keep close tabs on my repairs, and have never had problems with _any_ company’s guarantee.  Things occasionally get lost or misplaced. What you didn’t tell us is what you have actually done to rectify the situation.  A simple call to Orvis would handle this without problem – something you should have done about 6 months ago.  It would be a hell of a lot more productive than taking time to rant on this newsgroup. Also, if you feel so strongly that these guarantees are bad for flyfishing, then 1) why did you not buy a rod from someone who doesn’t offer one and 2) why did you send your rod in for warrantee work?  If you actually feel this way, both of those actions are more than a little hypocritical. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

Dave, thanks for the info. I was hoping I could do this. I still have the card that was attached to the registration card (which was already sent in) and it talks about shipping to their Vermont site. My problem was just trying to figure out how to get a box that it would fit in. Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob Bently writes: <<With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Bob Bently writes:

<<With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? Any Orvis dealer will take care of it for you.  Or you could ship directly to Orvis in Manchester, VT, but you’d pay the shipping charge.  Let your closest Orvis dealer do it.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

With regards to the Orvis guarantee, can I take a rod to any Orvis dealer and have him ship it back for repair/replacement, or do I have to take it to the dealer I bought it from? I ask, because I broke my new Silver Label 8wt of the weekend. There is a dealer nearby, but I bought it from another dealer which is 3.5 hours away? Thanks for any info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had great success with the Orvis guarantee.  I bought a trident in early 1997 that was a 1996 model discounted by about $100.00.  I broke the rod in the Summer of 1997 and returned it to my Orvis dealer here in Houston to get it repaired under the guarantee. The manager of the Houston store, Dave Haywood,  loaned me a replacement rod, a brand new Trident, and took my broken rod and sent it to Orvis in VT.  I didn’t even pay shipping charges.  Three weeks later Orvis sent me a brand new trident,  worth over $100.00 more than I had invested in the original rod.  I returned the loaner and have yet to spend a penny or to be inconvenienced much because of the broken rod.  When I think I could have been out a $400.00 rod I become ever more appreciative of the manner in which the whole affair was handled. I am not some crony of the store manager.  I met him when I bought the rod.  He had no reason to treat me any different than anyone else so I have to assume this is standard policy, at least here in the Houston area. It sounds like the troubles experienced with the guarantee are a function of the dealer.  I would bet a direct contact with the Orvis customer service people would get you the action you deserve. Tom

Response:

Timo Harjunen writes:

<<I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. It may be your local dealer that is the trouble, Timo.  I accidently broke two Orvis rods (at different times over the years) and they were "in the shop" four weeks (the longest period).  You should write to Orvis in Manchester, Vermont, USA, and ask them about it.   Do not expect your dealer to work for you on this.   I suspect you are in Finland — good Finnish names — so the mail may also be the culprit in all of this. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Hello! Just one warning from disappointed customer! I had an accident in last august and i broke my Orvis rod. Of course my rod has so called no questions asked quarantee for 25 years since i’m the original owner. So i left my rod in local dealer which send it to local importer – This all happened in during august last year and now it is the beginning of the fishing season and the rod is still in repair!! Nice work Orvis – it is the last of your rods that i’m going to buy! I would be even willing to pay for a decent repair time but this is ridiculous. May this Orvis 25year quarantee means that i have to now wait for 23 years to get my rod repaired… Disappointed customer -Timo ps. IMHO No questions asked quarantees are not good for fly fishing – i’m afraid that smaller rod makers will suffer eventually since the amount of broken rods will increase when the rods gets older…

Response:

Question:

I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for the help!!!                   Good luck, er fishing…                                 JOHN

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Ah. Welcome to "livers." Since cats in my neck of the woods like minnows (live or dead) as well as anything, I won’t touch chicken livers with a stick. Went fishing once with a friend. He used livers, and wiped his f*cking hands off on his pants. Got in my car, smearing that juice all over my seat. For a week, afterwards, my car stank. "No dear, that wasn’t me…." Anyway, yeah — you can use trebles, but I don’t recommend it. Yes, the liver stays on much better, but it’s not a good hook for cats (unlike a "Kahle(sp?)"), and if they do gulp it, it’s the devil’s own work, unhooking it. Instead — either fry the livers very briefly, or leave them out in the sun, first, for a while. That toughens ‘em up, and they won’t fly off the hook when you cast.

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!

You could use two small trebs englobbed in the flesh. TimW

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!! You could use two small trebs englobbed in the flesh. TimW

you can use what we call out here magic thread. what is it, it is a thread about the size of dental floss and it is elastic you take a live to a hook and hold on to one end of the thread and pull it tight and wrap the meat to the hook. let go of it and it senches the liver to the hook no knots to tie. it works great happy trails robert

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Ah. Welcome to "livers." Since cats in my neck of the woods like minnows (live or dead) as well as anything, I won’t touch chicken livers with a stick. Went fishing once with a friend. He used livers, and wiped his f*cking hands off on his pants. Got in my car, smearing that juice all over my seat. For a week, afterwards, my car stank. "No dear, that wasn’t me…." Anyway, yeah — you can use trebles, but I don’t recommend it. Yes, the liver stays on much better, but it’s not a good hook for cats (unlike a "Kahle(sp?)"), and if they do gulp it, it’s the devil’s own work, unhooking it. Instead — either fry the livers very briefly, or leave them out in the sun, first, for a while. That toughens ‘em up, and they won’t fly off the hook when you cast.

Just put all the livers you want in the toe of an old pair of pantyhose…tie it off of pin it shut…insert hook and feel free to cast as hard as you want….Good luck!  this technique has really gotten me some massive channel cats in the rivers of PA…

Response:

: I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Take a spool of light cotton thread with you and wrap about a foot of it around the liver to hold in place. Don’t wrap it too tight or it’ll slice the liver. I like cotton thread because it breaks easy and I don’t need to hunt for my knife all the time, it just breaks with a pull. Try beef or pork liver, works just as well and stays on the hook better. BiNM

Response:

I just wanted to second this: Since cats in my neck of the woods like minnows (live or dead) as well as anything, I won’t touch chicken livers with a stick.

I do use liver every now and then, or get some of that "catfish bait" in the tubs at the store. But catfish really like live small fish or large minnows (check your regs before using small fish – here it is okay to use small sunfish only if you catch them legally with hook and line) or cut bait. Night crawlers also work well. If it is legal to chum, you can toss a liver in near your line to attract cats. Once they arrive, they will eat other offerings as well. -Andy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I was fishing tonight for catfish at a local pond using chicken liver. : I got numerous bites, maybe 15 or so in a 3 hour period.  Yet I only : managed to catch one.  The liver was pretty soft and kept falling off : the hook.  Should I be using treble hooks??  What size would you : recommend for cats??  Any special techniques I should take into account : when getting bites?? i.e. when do I set the hook?  Any special way to : keep the liver secure on the hook?  Anyone???  Bueller???  Thanks for : the help!!!   Take a spool of light cotton thread with you and wrap about a foot of it around the liver to hold in place. Don’t wrap it too tight or it’ll slice the liver. I like cotton thread because it breaks easy and I don’t need to hunt for my knife all the time, it just breaks with a pull. Try beef or pork liver, works just as well and stays on the hook better. BiNM

You can also use a little square of panty hose wrapped around the liver…

Response:

Question:

     I’ll be in the Old Forge, NY area during the last week in July. Does anyone know if it’s worth bringing my flyrod?

Response:

Yes it is if you have an opportunity to fish Nicks Lake. You will need a canoe (which can be rented from Tickners in Old Forge), since motors are not allowed on Nicks. Heavily stocked with brown and brook trout. Throw on a size #18 adams and have fun.

Response:

Definately check out the West Canada Creek when you’re in Old Forge.  Late July, most of August you’ll likely find prolific hatches of what are locally called "whiteflies".  Size 12-14-16 light cahills work fine.  Good luck!

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ryan(& rec.outdoors.fishing.fly), Note: This was a hoax a year ago and still is. You can not introduce a virus into your system by reading a Usenet message. For DOS it must be an executable file and must in fact be opened. Never rally thought about these things propagating over and over as new folks come online. Urban Myths have now become Cyber Myths. I have no intent to waste bandwidth but I felt I neeed to post this as well as contact Ryan directly. regards, Joe Webb Atlanta Mac User Group (AMUG)

Joe, your statement is not altogether true. Do you remember a few years ago of a virus spreading on a UNIX machines across the Internet ? As I recall the virus was spread in a ‘mail’ message and took advantage of an application bug which utilized gets to read the input. Understanding how stack frames are built and their relationship to buffers of automatic scope, it is easy to see how this was done. My apologies to the readers for deviating from FF’ing ! -Dan-

Response:

Hi Group, A friend just advised me that a new virus is on the net which is supposed to have come from someone on AOL.  If you receive e-mail titled "Good Times" DELETE it immediately.  DO NOT read it.  If you do, your hard drive will be wiped clean. The virus can also damage your processor. It’s frustrating to have people out there doing this kind of stuff but at least we’ve been warned. Good Luck and don’t read Good Times Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT

The Goot Times Virus is a hoax. You can only get a virus if you download an executable file and run it. You won’t contract a virus by simply viewing e-mail

Response:

This Good Times crap is just that-Pure BS. You cannot get any kind of virus through an email message. —

"A Bad Day Fishing Is Better Than A Good Day At Work" Web Page:  http://www.tiac.net/users/macaw

Response:

A friend just advised me that a new virus is on the net which is supposed to have come from someone on AOL.  If you receive e-mail titled "Good Times" DELETE it immediately.  DO NOT read it.  If you do, your hard drive will be wiped clean. The virus can also damage your processor.

It’s a little known fact, but you can counter the effects of the "Good Times" virus by mailing a get well card to Craig Shergold. Be sure to include the recipe for Nieman-Marcus Toll House Cookies. Mike Rophone I never gave a fuck about the ‘net until I met Senator Exon

Response:

Hi Group, A friend just advised me that a new virus is on the net which is supposed to have come from someone on AOL.  If you receive e-mail titled "Good Times" DELETE it immediately.  DO NOT read it.  If you do, your hard drive will be wiped clean. The virus can also damage your processor. It’s frustrating to have people out there doing this kind of stuff but at least we’ve been warned. Good Luck and don’t read Good Times Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT

Response:

Hi Group, A friend just advised me that a new virus is on the net which is supposed to have come from someone on AOL.  If you receive e-mail titled "Good Times" DELETE it immediately.  DO NOT read it.  If you do, your hard drive will be wiped clean. The virus can also damage your processor.

This is a well known hoax.  Here’s some additional info for the curious. -Dave  email virus is a hoax!       If anyone repeats the hoax, please show them the FAQ.             G o o d   T i m e s   V i r u s  H o a x        F r e q u e n t l y   A s k e d   Q u e s t i o n s                             by Les Jones                         Febraury 6, 1996      This information may be freely reproduced in any medium,             as long as the information is unmodified. February 6, 1995 Update The Good Times virus hoax keeps on going. I receive almost daily reports of hoax activity. I’m reposting the FAQ to relevant newsgroups, and I’ve set up my own web pages: http://www.usit.net/public/lesjones/goodtimes-faq.html http://www.usit.net/public/lesjones/goodtimes-mini-faq.html http://users.aol.com/macfaq/goodtimes-faq.html http://users.aol.com/macfaq/goodtimes-mini-faq.html The FAQ has been updated with current URLs and a new section discussing the Word macro virus. A call to educators and translators If you teach classes or write books about the Internet, I encourage to educate people about Good Times. The Good Times myth is not going away anytime soon, so we should start including it in Internet curriculum now. The FAQ is free for redistribution in any medium, so feel free to integrate it into any class materials or published works. Good Times has spread to many countries, and has been translated into many languages. If you are bilingual, you can help debunk Good Times by translating the FAQ into another language. If you do translate the FAQ, please let me know the URL so I can include it in the FAQ. Is the Good Times email virus a hoax? Yes. It was a hoax in November of 1994, and it’s still a hoax in February of 1996. America Online, government computer security agencies, and makers of anti-virus software have declared Good Times a hoax. See Online References at the end of the FAQ. Since the hoax began in November of 1994, no copy of the alleged virus has ever been found, nor has there been a single verified case of a viral attack. Why should I believe the FAQ instead of the hoax? Unlike the warnings that have been passed around, the FAQ is signed and dated. I’ve included my email address, and the email addresses of contributors, for verification. I’ve also provided online references at the end of the FAQ so that you can confirm this information for yourself. I’m new to the Internet. What is the Good Times virus hoax? The story is that a virus called Good Times is being carried by email. Just reading a message with "Good Times" in the subject line will erase your hard drive, or even destroy your computer’s processor. Needless to say, it’s a hoax, but a lot of people believed it. The original message ended with instructions to "Forward this to all your friends," and many people did just that. Warnings about Good Times have been widely distributed on mailing lists, Usenet newsgroups, and message boards. The original hoax started in early December of 1994. It sprang up again in March of 1995. In mid-April, a new version of the hoax that mentioned a FCC report began circulating. Worried that Good Times would never go away, I decided to write the FAQ. These worries proved valid when the hoax began popping up again in October of 1995. What is the effect of the hoax? For those who already know it’s a hoax, it’s a nuisance to read the repeated warnings. For people who don’t know any better, it causes needless concern and lost productivity. The virus hoax infects mailing lists, bulletin boards, and Usenet newsgroups. Worried system administrators needlessly worry their employees by posting dire warnings. The hoax is not limited to the United States. It has appeared in several English-speaking and non-English-speaking countries. One reader sent me an English transcription of a radio broadcast in Malta. ‘infection’ I came across all tended to result from the message getting into the hands of senior non-computing personnel. Those with the ability and authority to spread it widely, without the knowledge to spot its nonsensical content." Some of the companies that have reportedly fallen for the hoax include AT&T, CitiBank, NBC, Hughes Aircraft, Microsoft, Texas Instruments, and dozens or hundreds of others. There have been outbreaks at numerous colleges. The U.S. government has not been immune. Some of the government agencies that have reportedly fallen victim to the hoax include the Department of Defense, the FCC, NASA, the USDA, U.S. Census Bureau, and various national labs. I’ve confirmed outbreaks at the Department of Health and Human Services, though they had the good sense to question the hoax, and ask for more information on Usenet, before passing the hoax along to their employees. The virus hoax has occasionally escaped into the popular media. Tom Sullivan show on KFBK 1530 AM radio in Sacramento, California, a police officer warned listeners not to read email labeled "Good Times", and to report the sender to the police. Other radio stations, including Australia’s ABC radio, have also spread the hoax. There are scattered reports of the virus spreading via Faxnet, that low-tech network of secretaries and bored knowledge workers that traffics in cartoons and dumb blonde jokes. What was the CIAC bulletin? On December 6, 1994, the U.S. Department of Energy’s CIAC (Computer Incident Advisory Capability) issued a bulletin declaring the Good Times virus a hoax and an urban legend. The bulletin was widely quoted as an antidote to the hoax. The original document can be found at the address in Online References at the end of the FAQ. Note that the document went through several minor revisions, with 94-04c of December 8 being the most recent. Like all quoted material in the FAQ, it includes the original spelling and punctuation. Because some of the lines in the CIAC report are rather long, they will appear broken. —-Begin quoted material—- THE "Good Times" VIRUS IS AN URBAN LEGEND In the early part of December, CIAC started to receive information requests about a supposed "virus" which could be contracted via America OnLine, simply by reading a message. | Here is some important information. Beware of a file called Goodtimes.    | |                                                                          | |  Happy Chanukah everyone, and be careful out there. There is a virus on   | | America Online being sent by E-Mail.  If you get anything called "Good    | | Times", DON’T read it or download it.  It is a virus that will erase your | | hard drive.  Forward this to all your friends.  It may help them a lot.   | THIS IS A HOAX.  Upon investigation, CIAC has determined that this message originated from both a user of America Online and a student at a university at approximately the same time, and it was meant to be a hoax. CIAC has also seen other variations of this hoax, the main one is that any electronic mail message with the subject line of "xxx-1" will infect your computer. This rumor has been spreading very widely.  This spread is due mainly to the fact that many people have seen a message with "Good Times" in the header. They delete the message without reading it, thus believing that they have saved themselves from being attacked. These first-hand reports give a false sense of credibility to the alert message. There has been one confirmation of a person who received a message with "xxx-1" in the header, but an empty message body.  Then, (in a panic, because he had heard the alert), he checked his PC for viruses (the first time he checked his machine in months) and found a pre-existing virus on his machine. He incorrectly came to the conclusion that the E-mail message gave him the virus (this particular virus could NOT POSSIBLY have spread via an E-mail message).  This person then spread his alert. As of this date, there are no known viruses which can infect merely through reading a mail message.  For a virus to spread some program must be executed. Reading a mail message does not execute the mail message.  Yes, Trojans have been found as executable attachments to mail messages, the most notorious being the IBM VM Christmas Card Trojan of 1987, also the TERM MODULE Worm (reference CIAC Bulletin B-7) and the GAME2 MODULE Worm (CIAC Bulletin B-12). But this is not the case for this particular "virus" alert. If you encounter this message being distributed on any mailing lists, simply ignore it or send a follow-up message stating that this is a false rumor. Karyn Pichnarczyk CIAC Team —-End quoted material—- Note: Karyn is now with Cisco. Her new email address is The CIAC report was wrong when it stated that the hoax was started by "a user of America Online and a student at a university." See "Who started the hoax." What’s the first version of the warning (FYI)? I have an early version of the hoax … read more »

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drive will be wiped clean. The virus can also damage your processor.

A virus cannot damage your processor. It’s frustrating to have people out there doing this kind of stuff but at least we’ve been warned.

Agreed Tight lines, Jay Whitworth

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Regarding the good times virus: I just received an FYI forwarded through the university admin here at MSU-Bozeman, stating that the GOOD TIMES virus is a farce. Evidently, warnings about it were posted from an AOL user who was intentionally crying wolf. But, before that, I received a warning notice about the virus. My latest info says its a fake, but I’ve heard both sides. Anyone know the TRUTH about GOOD TIMES? Better safe than sorry till then, don’t read any mail which promises good times… Ryan Jordan J&J Flies http://www.erc.montana.edu/~ryan_j/jjflies/jjflies.htm & Center for Biofilm Engineering http://www.erc.montana.edu/~ryan_j/

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This Good Times crap is just that-Pure BS. You cannot get any kind of virus through an email message.

If there were such a thing as a Good Times virus, it would probably be a lot more dangerous if it were renamed the WARNING!!! virus. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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: It’s a little known fact, but you can counter the effects of the : "Good Times" virus by mailing a get well card to Craig Shergold. Sorry bud, Craig Shergold died about 3 years ago.  Guess he didn’t get enough cards.  This time it’s Biff Maloney, but the card still goes to the same address.  I guess it’s just a bad luck bed. : Be sure to include the recipe for Nieman-Marcus Toll House : Cookies. Yeah, because everyone has the Mrs. Fields cookie recipe.   : I never gave a fuck about the ‘net until I met Senator Exon                  ^^^^ Brought to you by the letters ACLU and EEF. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Regarding the good times virus: I just received an FYI forwarded through the university admin here at MSU-Bozeman, stating that the GOOD TIMES virus is a farce. Evidently, warnings about it were posted from an AOL user who was intentionally crying wolf. But, before that, I received a warning notice about the virus. My latest info says its a fake, but I’ve heard both sides. Anyone know the TRUTH about GOOD TIMES? Better safe than sorry till then, don’t read any mail which promises good times… Ryan Jordan

Ryan(& rec.outdoors.fishing.fly), Note: This was a hoax a year ago and still is. You can not introduce a virus into your system by reading a Usenet message. For DOS it must be an executable file and must in fact be opened. Never rally thought about these things propagating over and over as new folks come online. Urban Myths have now become Cyber Myths. I have no intent to waste bandwidth but I felt I neeed to post this as well as contact Ryan directly. regards, Joe Webb Atlanta Mac User Group (AMUG)

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