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The Sylvania Tract, a little west of Ironwood, has geat smallmouth fishing.  It is all canoe, catch and release, barbless hooks only, and if you stay in overnight, has only primitive camping.  It is possible to rent a canoe and go into Clark Lake in the morning, fish the day, and get out before dark.  It’s not that big a lake.  We fished in June and caught bass to 21 inches.  I expect if you do a search on Sylvania Tract you will quickly find info. good luck

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I’m heading up to Ironwood, Michigan for a wedding in mid August.  Does anyone have any advice on some good fishing spots nearby?  Any type from fly-fishing for trout to trolling for walleye would be appreciated. Thanks, SB

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I was up in that neck of the woods last summer and did some fly fishing in two general locations in that area. The Porcupine mountains are a few miles northeast from Ironwood. I didn’t catch too much there, but it sure is a pretty place with some beautiful vistas and backcountry. If you take Rt. 2 east to Watersmeet, you’ll come to the Ontonogon River. Easy to wade and full of cooperative brookies. I had great luck with small royal wolffs. When you buy your license, get a free copy of Michigan’s Inland Trout and Salmon Guide, which has maps of the whole state and its trout streams. Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m heading up to Ironwood, Michigan for a wedding in mid August.  Does anyone have any advice on some good fishing spots nearby?  Any type from fly-fishing for trout to trolling for walleye would be appreciated. Thanks, SB

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I’m heading up to Ironwood, Michigan for a wedding in mid August.  Does anyone have any advice on some good fishing spots nearby?  Any type from fly-fishing for trout to trolling for walleye would be appreciated. Thanks, SB

    If you are daring and have a bit of cash book a charter out of the harbor about 45 min north of there (The name escapes me right now Black River Harbor???) .  The Salmon should be just offshore by then.  Otherwise you have world class musky and walleye waters about 30 minutes south in the Turtle Flambeau Flowage in Wisconsin.  No Trolling allowed but this is world class water with many opportunties.  Clear and dark waters lie in the flowage and boat rentals as well as local info are available.  Night fishing may be the key for some really big fish by then.    As for trout streams the Montreal can yield some good catches late in the season if the water remains high enough and is only 15-20 minutes to the west.  Then you do have the Brule to the east, but personally I believe it is overrated and overfished. Good luck.  Both to you and the future wedded couple. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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          Hi Im pretty sure you have heard this a million times but I am a beginer with very lil expierience… Just moved into a new how with an apsolut gorgeous lake with ample fish but have yet to pull anything out other than minnows with a worm n bobber… Was doing a lil fly fishing (first time in 5 years) and Still nothing… I can pretend to know what Im doing but other than that =) Hint, Tips, or websites would be greatlly aprieciated… Thanks for listening, pretty sure this post comes up often…

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… pretty sure this post comes up often…

No, this one’s pretty special. Where is this wonderful lake, direction & state will do, ie north Florida, and what kind of fish, besides minnows, are in it ? — Ken Fortenberry

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… pretty sure this post comes up often… No, this one’s pretty special. Where is this wonderful lake, direction & state will do, ie north Florida, and what kind of fish, besides minnows, are in it ?

I’d like the exact coordinates. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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We are happier to help you than it may appear. You just haven’t provided much information. What type of fly fishing equipment do you have? What type of fish are in this lake? If it’s panfish (bluegill,etc.) or bass you can get a fly at WalMart called a Miss Prissy. Bluegill and bass love ‘em. Just cast it near a shoreline or near cover. You can just let it sit or you can twitch it as you retrieve it. This is a great time of year for the Miss Prissy. That’s a good starting point.

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Ah me precious. books it has yessssssss. the libraries has it me precious it

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Ah me precious. books it has yessssssss. the libraries has it me precious it

Groovy! You are da man! You are da bom! Mu

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Hi Frodo, I think this might warrant a house call? Do you have a  sister? Only kidding. Is it a bass/panfish lake or a trout lake? I guess it doesn’t matter. Go out to the lake and cast a #10 Woolly Bugger as far as you can. Sometimes it is better when the sun is off the water. Then put your rod tip on or slightly in the water. Strip the line back through your fingers in short, quick little jerks. The next thing you will feel is a fish pulling on you fly. If this does not work and it is a bass/panfish lake, wait till May and then do this in the PM just after the sun gets off the water. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA http://www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –           Hi Im pretty sure you have heard this a million times but I am a beginer with very lil expierience… Just moved into a new how with an apsolut gorgeous lake with ample fish but have yet to pull anything out other than minnows with a worm n bobber… Was doing a lil fly fishing (first time in 5 years) and Still nothing… I can pretend to know what Im doing but other than that =) Hint, Tips, or websites would be greatlly aprieciated… Thanks for listening, pretty sure this post comes up often…

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Ah me precious. books it has yessssssss. the libraries has it me precious it

        i am damn near transported.  thanks, john. wayno

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Hey, Thanks for the replies… Hehe john. Ok, it is an old quarry spring fed… In grandville mi called big spring lake near grandrapids, It has both bass and bluegill just the other day after i posted I pulled an impressive small mouth on a black jig head just before dusk…The shore that we own, one side goes gradually down then cuts strait off 18 feet (Caught bass just b4 drop off) and the other side is just a strait drop… If i could ever find the spring i heard it goes down some 80 feet but that duznt sound right.I couldnt know for sure… I have an old simple rod nothing fancy and a few store bought fly’s n a few poppers… I could really tell you the names or kind of line cause I honestly dont know without going out side and looking at the pole… Im really lazy =) Im gonna go out in a few and try my luck and Ill let you know what turns out… Good luck to you all and have a nice one =)

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   In the first place Mike didn’t do anything any decent person would have done. I sent an E-mail to Dianna telling her my opinion of the article and received a reply which was negative and did not sound like her.  I did not know about the injury to her husband and the pressure she was under at the time.  As the Editor she did have a responsibility to place a disclaimer to state FAOL’s position on Old Ruff’s article, which she did not do.  This made it appear that they condoned this inflammatory article.  Then she removed the negative comments about it from FAOL which further indicated FAOL’s position was to agree with the article.  Deanna made some serious errors and her actions led to the current situation.    Mike’s reputation is even better with me because he has the courage of his convictions.  If I had to chose between Mike and FAOL, Mike would win every time. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a certain reputation to uphold here, and elsewhere.< Not any more. Oh, I think Mike still enjoys a pretty good reputation on ROFF.  Of course, my supposition hinges on the assumption that you don’t speak for all of us…….I could be wrong.

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ROFF is the one place, FAOL cannot censor opposing points of view. < And one YOU cannot censor.

And what have I censored? bc.

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HRBlain writes: I could be wrong.< You often are.

Careful, HR, or you’ll end up in Bmabia, which is right next to Bmalia.  In fact, they share the same fire and police dpts.  The young ladies in Bmabia, however, are small titted, unlike the lucious dolls of Bmalia.  Something about the water I suspect. Dave L.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike,   Ok, already! Perhaps it is only me, but I see no need to burden ROFF with ongoing matters on FAOL. For days on end, we get a bombardment of threads, the vast majority started by yourself, to discuss your beef with folks who don’t regularly contribute here. Wasn’t it you who had to depart us once before over needless bulk caused by other threads? You seem to be taken with the need to justify on this forum why you shouldn’t be blamed for the demise(if indeed such happens)of FAOL. It is perfectly rational that some blame you. Get over it. Get back to the insightful and well written stuff that has endeared you to many. I miss your angling writing, and hope not to offend with these observations.                         regards,                          Tom Littleton "Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only real cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas."

Tom: I am little more than a lurker here with very few posts to my credit. I have, however, read Mr. Connors and many others posts over the last 6 months. In this time I’ve found him to be free with his knowledge, a prolific contributor to the group, and above all, a reasonable and courteous gentleman. He now finds himself in a position of being slandered, quoted out of context, and generally maligned by persons who aren’t qualified to carry his creel. His integrity has been called in to question by persons with less than honourable methods. I think he has handled himself with more restraint than I could. If he feels that posting to a public forum is the best way to defend his name, I am willing to afford him some lattitude. IMHO, ROFF is a forum for educated (formal or otherwise) and sometimes opinionated, gentleman to gather for thought provoking discussion with fly fishing being the tie that binds (if not always the main topic <G). When I get tired of a thread I just move to the next subject header. Rick O. "Children are born with an innate sense of justice; it usually takes twelve years of public schooling and four more years of college to beat it out of them." "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell."

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Like I said in another post… "Crusty Factor" — Michael Era

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playing the fish I was shocked to discover a Channel Catfish (~3 lbs.) on the end of my line!!  I have never seen a catfish take a fly, but was even more astounded that it had taken a dry fly!!

Thanks for the post David.From another flatlander.I too am adicted to bluegills on a 3-weight.(you can’t have too many good 3-weight rods.)I enjoy taking catfish on my 3-weight rods, but have not been able to figure out how to do it on a more than once in a while basis and then seldom on the surface.My experience is that they are hell  on leaders, but who cares after a 20 minute fight? Big Dale PS My latest 3 weight Scott purchased from E-Bay was delivered by the postman yesterday. I had a good  visit with the postman who is another flyfisherman. Should be on my favorite bluegill pond about daybreak to check out the new rod.

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which I am only able to read. So maybe you can tell us… Which came first?

I am sure Indian Joe will be able to give first hand knowledge to George. God would’nt you like to be a fly on the wall at that event!!!!! Big Dale

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Lurking for 4 years!!??  Man, you must have the patience of a saint to stay out of some of these threads.  This past Tuesday I returned from a 7 day trip to Alaska, to find over 1,000 posts accumulated here on ROFF….I read most of them. (certain people on here are always worth reading)  After reading, it once again became clear to me why I am still here after nearly 5 years, this damned NG is not only enlightening, but entertaining as well.  If you want or need a comparison with a similar to that group too for more than 5 years.  This is a ‘moderated’ group, with the listowner who controls the content, ie: no flame wars, keep the to dress up, put on my Sunday best and behave while I’m there.  Over here, HA!  just amble on in wearing nothing but my boxers and a 3 day it’s just that this motley bunch has much more to offer in the way of entertainment value.  To quote our Mr G…"God, I love this place!" — Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF  RET.

|Greetings.  I have been lurking in this group for about 4 years, but |have been completely satisfied with just reading the different posts. |Now I am ready to join in the melee with a report of my own. | |Being a flatlander my main quarry is the largemouth bass and the |bluegill, and the other night (after work) I felt the need to bend a |rod.  I went to a local farm pond to catch a few bluegill.  I grabbed |my trusty 3 wt. and the appropriate boxes of flies to go after some |wary bluegill.  I tied on a sponge spider and immediately caught |several bluegill.  I decided to change flies and selected a Madame X |to see if I could entice more bluegill to jump on my line. | |Imagine my surprise when my rod almost came out of my hands.  Before I |knew what was happening my rod was bent over and my pile of slack line |was beginning to disappear!  I knew I had a larger fish and figured it |was a bass.  The problem was I didn’t know how big and whether, or |not, it would break my 1.5 pound tippet.  After 20 minutes, or so, of |playing the fish I was shocked to discover a Channel Catfish (~3 lbs.) |on the end of my line!!  I have never seen a catfish take a fly, but |was even more astounded that it had taken a dry fly!! | |I guess it just goes to show that fly fishing is always an adventure. |BTW, the bluegill action continued until dark once I got over the |shock of catching the catfish. | |David R. Felter |"The mind is like a parachute.  It doesn’t work if it’s not opened." |

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Love it! I have seen and caught catfish on a fly – nymph fished extremely slow on the bottom though.  It is a rare occurrence.

During the whitefly hatch in July and August on the Susquehanna river, catching catfish on drys and emergers is fairly common, although I have never caught one of the big cats I know are in the river when fishing on the surface.  After a while you can tell the difference between a catfish rise and a smallmouth rise and target either species.  The catfish fight more like an old tire – no match for the smallies. Mark Faulkner

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Lurking for 4 years!!??  Man, y

Frank, did ya catch any in AK? –Walt

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I have been using the Madame X tied in black on a size 10 hook in late summer and early fall for the past several years. It is *very* effective on trout from early September until the first hard frost. I think it represents a cricket, but it might just be an attactor. I havn’t tried it on warmwater fish, but I suspect it would be deadly on bass and sunfish. George Adams

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Lurking for 4 years!!??  Man, you must have the patience of a saint to stay out of some of these threads.  

<snipped It has tried my patience occassionally, but two little girls were taking too much of my time to get involved in a good (?) C&R discussion, or whether George was spamming, or fishing has become too high tech, or whether a seperate tying news group is a good idea (going back a couple of years), etc.  :-)     Anyway the girls are older and I have a _little_ more free time to become involved in the discussions.  So watch out!  :-) David R. Felter "The mind is like a parachute.  It doesn’t work if it’s not opened."

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It has tried my patience occassionally, but two little girls were taking too much of my time to get involved in a good (?) C&R discussion, or whether George was spamming, or fishing has become too high tech, or whether a seperate tying news group is a good idea (going back a couple of years), etc.  :-)

You do go back a ways.  The fact that you’re still here should be, well, disturbing to your family and friends. Anyway the girls are older and I have a _little_ more free time to become involved in the discussions.  So watch out!  :-)

I have two girls who were little once, but quite mysteriously have become young women who need to be shielded from certain attorneys in the old north state, lest their hearts be forever captured.  Anyhow, enjoy their presence now for they are too soon gone. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I have two girls who were little once, but quite mysteriously have become young women who need to be shielded from certain attorneys in the old north state, lest their hearts be forever captured.  Anyhow, enjoy their presence now for they are too soon gone. Mark Faulkner

        you know, markey, i meant to talk with you about those little rascals; i mean, where could be the harm in a couple picture exchanges and a few nights reading the advance sheets together…         wayno, who wouldn’t *dare*. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Love it! I have seen and caught catfish on a fly – nymph fished extremely slow on the bottom though.  It is a rare occurrence. Now the important question – What’s the pattern for the MadamX? I know rubberlegs tend to drive Bluegill crazy. — Bill Endicott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings.  I have been lurking in this group for about 4 years, but have been completely satisfied with just reading the different posts. Now I am ready to join in the melee with a report of my own. Being a flatlander my main quarry is the largemouth bass and the bluegill, and the other night (after work) I felt the need to bend a rod.  I went to a local farm pond to catch a few bluegill.  I grabbed my trusty 3 wt. and the appropriate boxes of flies to go after some wary bluegill.  I tied on a sponge spider and immediately caught several bluegill.  I decided to change flies and selected a Madame X to see if I could entice more bluegill to jump on my line. Imagine my surprise when my rod almost came out of my hands.  Before I knew what was happening my rod was bent over and my pile of slack line was beginning to disappear!  I knew I had a larger fish and figured it was a bass.  The problem was I didn’t know how big and whether, or not, it would break my 1.5 pound tippet.  After 20 minutes, or so, of playing the fish I was shocked to discover a Channel Catfish (~3 lbs.) on the end of my line!!  I have never seen a catfish take a fly, but was even more astounded that it had taken a dry fly!! I guess it just goes to show that fly fishing is always an adventure. BTW, the bluegill action continued until dark once I got over the shock of catching the catfish. David R. Felter "The mind is like a parachute.  It doesn’t work if it’s not opened." ______  GREAT!  Thanks for sharing it.  The Madam X was invented by John Foust and I sat right next to him while WE tied it together. He would ask, "What do you think of this?"  And, I’d say, tie it all forward, bring it back to make the head and the wings will explode . . . and he did.  John thought of adding the rubber legs.  Then we later went to the B-52 for the big salmon fly hatch on the Bitterroot.  Yes, John is a marvelous fly tier but I did help him create it, which is of great pride to me.  But John Foust deserves 95% of doing it all by himself.  He sure turned into a pretty good fly fisherman.  I have stories of John that will tickle your funny bone.  His is a funny man and a very smart one also. George — Mr. G. ‘all’s fair with fur or feather’ http://216.55.26.157/vchat/ http://www.gink.com http://www.rodbuilding.com (Bamboo Is Fun) http://www.xink.com 509-243-4100 or 5500

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In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

Since when does the success of a PhD depend on real-world relevance? JonCook. PS: As was pointed out, any complete population dynamics model would have     to take multiple-C+R into account if in fact it is not a linear relation.

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I’ve caught fish is locations like the San Juan that have clearly been caught many times and they tend to not fight very hard. Is it a learned behavior? Possibly we are inadvertently building a strain of fish the survive multiple catch and release because they don’t fight very hard, leaving more reserves for in-stream survival subsequent to release. I don’t think it would take too many generations for this to begin to be noticed, unless its already happening and we all don’t remember the hard fighting fish of yesteryears. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population? In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.

One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw.   Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

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Hmmm…had to take longer to revive???  The Missoulian (Missoula Montana) just ran an artical about the high water temps this summer (it’s very hot out here…94 degrees today) and the affects this has on fish recovery.  FW&P biologist would like you to not fish if the water temps. are above or close to 70 degrees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management. One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw. Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

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I have the good fortune to live within a few miles of a small tailwater stream in New England.  The upper 1/2 mile is fly fishing only, catch & release year round. The next 3/4 mile downstream is catch & release, artificials only 7/1 to 12/31, and any method, 3 fish limit 1/1 to 6/30. These regs have been in place for more than 10 years.  Water temp seldom exceeds 60 deg. The stream is heavily stocked, and has a small poulation of native brook trout as well.  Studies by fisheries and wildlife indicate that 75% of the fish caught in the lower section are released.  Multiple catches are a way of life for both fish and fishermen.  This is a small, clear stream and dead fish are easily spotted. Very few dead fish are observed. The total seen amounts to way less than 1% of the 6500 or so trout stocked each year.  I understand that this is strictly anecdotal data, but this stream does offer a unique opportunity to observe the dynamics of a C&R area. This observation is offered only as general info on C&R mortality, and not intended to restart the "moral/ethical" debate over C&R. Tight lines!! George

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Hmmmm!   This is an interesting bunch of statistics.  But I get the impression that they are not all that connected.  They are drawn from several sources (comparing apples and oranges?).   I don’t deny that a percentage of C&R’d fish perish, but the survival rates don’t come close to comparing.  Let’s say that only 70% of C&R’d fish survive — 0% of C&K’d fish survive!! So let’s leave this sort of thought process to the guys in the Ivory Towers.  It really doesn’t make that much difference to the man in the river except the accent the need for appropriate care in the releasing of fish.   There has been entirely too much ad hominem name-calling  between the the C&R and C&K factions.  I speak out in favor of killing those fish that will be eaten (I like trout) and releasing those that will not be eaten (I don’t like cleaning fish).  I do favor leaving the large, wild fish to breed, and eating only the small to medium size ones.  In stocked rivers with little or no breeding, I have much less qualms when I see a fisherman leaving with a stringer. I don’t like seeing, as I did on the coast where I grew up, are dozens and dozens of fish, many of which are inedible or unplatable. Neal G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /             |/   (         /|    –     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Seek personal peace at the end of a fly line.

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: I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?   In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?

I wasn’t really concerned about ‘a particular’ fish in my original post — or even a small sampling of fish — except in how the possible change in mortality as exhibited in the small sample when spread across a larger number of fish could be used to possibly model population dynamics in C&R streams.  Certainly the C&R mortality and the number of C&R cycles would not represent the full population dynamics model, but might become a part of a larger model.  This larger model could then be a useful tool for developing effective management practices for some fisheries (selective harvest, restricted seasons, limited take, controlled fishing pressure, etc) — and that is what would be of interest to fishermen. In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

What about a title like — "Mortality of (pick a species that grows large – S. trutta, for example) in (pick several exotic geographic location — New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, etc.) when exposed to multiple C&R cycles".  Now, find somebody (read sucker) to fund the research — sell it as at least a 15-20 year project.  Recruit several of your favorite fishing buddies as long-term ‘graduate’ or ‘undergraduate’ assistants and disappear on the mother of all fishing trips. :^) PS: I thought all PhD’s were slow and painful deaths — even for the survivors! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

–             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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Question:

looking for stream conditions and fly patterns to use in the northwest SC, northeast  GA, southwest NC area.  have not been flyfishing long and have a desire to get that first fish!!! thanks

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looking for stream conditions and fly patterns to use in the northwest SC, northeast  GA, southwest NC area.  have not been flyfishing long and have a desire to get that first fish!!! thanks

Hasn’t rained in a while so the creeks I was on last weekend (in the Blue Ridge WMA in N GA) were about normal. Got a few takes on bwo and elk hair caddis but didn’t see any rising fish. — Charlie…

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looking for stream conditions and fly patterns to use in the northwest SC, northeast  GA, southwest NC area.  have not been flyfishing long and have a desire to get that first fish!!!

Try the Chattooga River access at Burrell’s Ford from GA and SC.  I’d recommend getting the Chattooga River Wild and Scenic River Map published by the Forest Service.  The river is very fishable now and you can check the water level at the USGS web site.  This river normally runs 2 to 3 feet, if it is above 5 feet don’t waste your time.  Humpy’s and Elk hair caddis are good in the pocket water, and Hare’s ears are good in the pools.  I caught a really nice Brown a couple of weeks ago in the West Fork of the Chattooga.  However, the casting is tight and may not be what you are looking for if your new to the sport.  I also like to fish upstream of the West Fork up toward Elliott Rock (which is the border with NC).  The river is pretty wide with plenty of room for a backcast. It is a couple of mile hike upstream of Burrells Ford and most of thebait fishermen won’t make the trip.  Good Luck. Patrick

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Question:

I would appreciate any recommendations from people on good places to stay in Montana for a week in August. Wishes are: reasonably close to good fly fishing, right on or near some water would be excellent; a cabin with some personality and a kitchen in a somewhat private, open setting (not a town); fairly quiet with a small number of other guests; prefer moderate price, premium price for perfect spot OK. I’m open to any location in Montana, but am somewhat familiar to Twin Bridges area and liked it a lot. Also liked fishing in Yellowstone Park rivers so near that might be good. Have not fished Big Hole, hear I should. Any suggestions very much appreciated. Thank you. AWilson

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I would appreciate any recommendations from people on good places to stay in Montana for a week in August.

August is generally (but of course not ALWAYS) the worst month of the year. It’s hot, and the water levels are low, and the fish  (specially browns) are in a nocturnal phase then. August should be particularly skunky this year, as we have an anemic, El Nino snow pack–Utah and Colorado got all our snow.     At that time of year, the best fishing is at high altitude: beaver ponds, small brook trout creeks and mountain lakes. —  * Center for Computational Biology  * Montana State Bozeman  (406) 994-7061  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */

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Question:

I am spending a week in the Jackson Tenn. area.  Anyone know of any good flyfishing to be had within an hours drive? Thanks for your reply.   Dee

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I don’t really know of anything near Jackson, however if you are willing to drive about 6 hours you can fish some of the finest fly fishing waters in the world in NorthEast Tennessee.   The tailwaters of the S. Holston has been rated in the top ten trout streams in the nation, and if you are looking for the mountain stream experience the Doe Creek which runs through Roan Mountain State Park is great.  Also Laurel Fork, etc.  There are also some great spots in the Smoky’s, but I have never fished them. If you want to come up here, I can guide you or I can recommend a guide. Joe Byrd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am spending a week in the Jackson Tenn. area.  Anyone know of any good flyfishing to be had within an hours drive? Thanks for your reply.   Dee

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You are closer to the White River area of Arkansas than East Tenessee. Call Gaston’s near Mountain Home Ark. or Ozark Anglers in Heber Springs, Ark.If you want to fish for small mouth try Buffalo River near Flatwoods Tn. Its about 1 hour southeast of Jackson. Try and find a book, Home Waters, written by the Mid -South Flyfishers of Memphis, Tn. It gives you good advice about the Ark. area and also about Buffalo River in Tn. Best wishes. Jack.

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One hour east of Nashville is the Caney Fork River.  It has fished excellent this year.  The Caney is a tailwater.  One to two hours south of Nashville are the Elk and the Duck rivers.  They are both excellent tailwaters.  Closer to you is the Little Buffallo River.  It has a section of trout water, but I have not fished it.  Lots of smallmouth and largemouth water all over middle Tennessee.   Some of the colder smallmouth streams are stocked with trout in the spring.  Maybe some summer survivors. Maybe this will help. If you decide on a tailwater in Tennessee, please-please, call the TVA generation schedule for that particular dam.  1-800-238-2264 and follow their instructions.  The generation schedules have been pretty good for the three tailwaters I listed.  Sometimes. Michael

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Question:

I am looking for a telephone number (or adress) of a company called Float Tube Unlimited. Thanks in advance                      Thomas — Sender:  Thomas Urbig          Harvard University          Institute for Molecular and Cellular Biology          16 Divinity Ave.          Cambridge, MA 02138          Tel: (USA) 617 495 3716;   Fax:  (USA)  617 496 8726

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Quoting Thomas from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    <I am looking for a telephone number (or adress) of a company called    <Float Tube Unlimited. Jim Carlisle

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I tried to get a catalog off thier 1-800 #, 3 freak’n times.   NO LUCK. Whats with that company??? I went with Cabela’s. John

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi, I am 10 years old have been fly fishing for 2 1/2 years. I would like to hear from other kids who are interested in fly fishing. Matt- North Carolina

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I am advisor to a fly fishing club at our middle school here in Bozeman.   I had our first meeting yesterday, and we had 18 students!  I did this the last two years and average 6-8 students.  I’d be interested to know if anyone else is doing anything like I am trying.  Would be interested in sharing information.  Dave Kumlien, Bozeman, MT

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(David Kumlien) writes: I am advisor to a fly fishing club at our middle school here in Bozeman. I had our first meeting yesterday, and we had 18 students!  I did this the last two years and average 6-8 students.  I’d be interested to know if anyone else is doing anything like I am trying.  Would be interested in sharing information.  Dave Kumlien, Bozeman, MT

What a great idea, Dave.  I, for one, would really like to hear of your experiences, and I may have a thought or two to throw in now and then.  By all means, keep posting! Kurt Steinbock

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Hi, I am 10 years old have been fly fishing for 2 1/2 years. I would like to hear from other kids who are interested in fly fishing. Matt- North Carolina

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