Question:

I am planning to make a trip to the Charlottes shortly so that I can partake in a little winter steelheading there. I am trying to gather as much info. as I can before I go. Does anyone know what the steelheading has been like up there this season? Specifically, I am interested in fishing the Yakoun and, possibly, the Tlell rivers. I have been to the Yakoun before, but not the Tlell. I wonder, how well suited is the Tlell to fly fishing? Are the reaches above tide water easy to get at. Any kind hearted soul who with some useful info can reach me at: Thanks in advance.

Response:

Please post info.  we are interested on your findings! Thanks. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning to make a trip to the Charlottes shortly so that I can partake in a little winter steelheading there. I am trying to gather as much info. as I can before I go. Does anyone know what the steelheading has been like up there this season? Specifically, I am interested in fishing the Yakoun and, possibly, the Tlell rivers. I have been to the Yakoun before, but not the Tlell. I wonder, how well suited is the Tlell to fly fishing? Are the reaches above tide water easy to get at. Any kind hearted soul who with some useful info can reach me at: Thanks in advance.

Response:

I am planning to make a trip to the Charlottes shortly so that I can partake in a little winter steelheading there. I am trying to gather as much info.

Essential:  James Houston’s memoir Hideaway. He has had a house there for decades. — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

Response:

Question:

 So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig.

heh, heh, heh! Deer freezing in the headlights I can understand.  Deer seeking out the headlights leaves me somewhat bemused, not to mention the rather sorry state it leaves them in.  "Selfrighteous prig"?  Ouch!  If that is the best you can do for an insult you pathetic little cocksucker, you really ARE in the wrong place.  Hell, that wasn’t even amusing. Clueless newbie is a term rarely applied to anyone who comes in asking for information or anyone who pauses to introduce him or her self. Typically it is reserved for sanctimonious pieces of shit like yourself who have somehow gotten into their pointed little heads the idea that they need to come in here and clean up the joint.  Let me guess, you REALLY thought that by laying it on heavy like you did, you would force me to roll over and concede your moral and intellectual superiority, right?  The bad man would slink off in dismay and the usenet would live happily ever after, right?  I’ll bet you’ve got a spiffy collection of John Wayne and Gary Cooper movies, huh? If you had taken the time to acquaint yourself with the place you’d just walked into it might have caused you to have your head out of your ass long enough to get a bit of oxygen to what passes for your brain.  As a result it might have dawned on you that the thread you were responding to was somewhat tongue in cheek (not at all the same thing as having your entire skull firmly lodged BETWEEN your cheeks).   If you think MY attitude is offensive, just wait till one of the REAL assholes in here sinks his teeth into your sorry decrepit ass.  How to learn?  ASK A FUCKING QUESTION! At any rate, nice to have you aboard.  Stick around for a while; I suspect you will provide many hours of diversion.  And DO have a nice day asshole.    :) Wolfgang STILL the undefeated world champion Royal ROFFian Guardian Against Sanctimony!

Response:

….Can you imagine there was the digital equivalent of a barfight over the definition of meniscus??

Oh come now Herman, that was hardly a barfight!  As I recall, it one of the more civilized, not to mention enlightening, discussions that has ever taken place among my esteemed brethren here.  Nary a harsh word was written.        :)

Response:

Hey Wolfie, are you the selfrighteous prig or am I.  I’m confused?  I thought we were making fun of flamers.

Didn’t LaPlac call you a prig last year when he had that bad cold? — Charlie…

Response:

Don, you’ll usually find what you need, if you can separate the wheat from the burning chaff.  Did you ask a question that got ignored or are you just being hypothetical?  Charlie,   Not takin it personal. I know a bit about the exasperation with clueless newbies and asking the same question 30 different ways.Just tryin to learn here. I admit at 50 it might take some learning but if I ask a question and get nothing back what has gone on?  Is my question so stupid that it is undeserving of an answer? Or is it just that the elite feel they don’t like clueless newbies ?

– Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

 So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig.

Innocence Abused. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Hey Wolfie, are you the selfrighteous prig or am I.  I’m confused?  I thought we were making fun of flamers.

Um, I believe that would be me Peter.  As I recall, you are the hapless Canuck.

Response:

So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig. — Don Thompson Zoomie(BushBug) ACA#3460 TLCB#335 Any Time, Any Place

Hey Wolfie, are you the selfrighteous prig or am I.  I’m confused?  I thought we were making fun of flamers. Peter

Response:

Oh come now Herman, that was hardly a barfight!  As I recall, it one of the more civilized, not to mention enlightening, discussions that has ever taken place among my esteemed brethren here.  Nary a harsh word was written.    :)

Let’s pray for sanctuary from this sanctimony<g. — Charlie…

Response:

[neat rant snipped] Wolfgang STILL the undefeated world champion Royal ROFFian Guardian Against Sanctimony!

Oh, OK you’re the selfrighteous prig.  Good, saves me the bother. Peter

Response:

 So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

Wow, this is too good to be true. A sanctimonious, name calling, self confessed, clueless newbie. OK, so who’s the funny man ? Which one of you clever assholes made this one up ? Opie ? RDean ? — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig. — Don Thompson Zoomie(BushBug) ACA#3460 TLCB#335 Any Time, Any Place Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

You certainly know how to make an entrance.  Once you’ve saught medical treatment for your rectal-cranial inversion condition, please make yourself at home and enjoy the place. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

 Well,  Thanks both Herman and Charlie.   Er was than meniscus or maniscus?     grin —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

| Don, | It happens. Some questions are somehow not touched by anyone, while | other, most of the time completely unexpected and without any relation | to the original topic, change into threads that run for weeks and even | turn into mudslinging contests. Can you imagine there was the digital | equivalent of a barfight over the definition of meniscus?? Don’t ask, | you might stir up the, ehmm.. nevermind. | And as for elite.. there is no such thing as elite over here. Just stick | around, and don’t hesitate to ask a question. | | Have fun, Herman | |

| |  Charlie, | |   Not takin it personal. I know a bit about the exasperation with clueless | newbies and asking the same question 30 different ways.Just tryin to learn | here. I admit at 50 it might take some learning but if I ask a question and | get nothing back what has gone on?  Is my question so stupid that it is | undeserving of an answer? Or is it just that the elite feel they don’t like | clueless newbies ? | | — |  Don Thompson |  Zoomie(BushBug) |  ACA#3460 |  TLCB#335 |  Any Time, Any Place | |  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air. | | | | Charlie, | | | | In asia where they drive on the wrong side of the road I had some help | | before getting run over.Wish it were so here. | | | | I didn’t and almost got hit the 1st time or two, but I figured it out | | pretty quick on my own. They don’t much worry about hitting | | pedestrians over there, especially American ones. I didn’t take it | | personally, though. FWIW. | | — | | Charlie… | | — | | Cheers, Herman | Herman Nijland | Daytime webmaster | Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??

Look both ways before stepping out in traffic? — Charlie…

Response:

 Charlie,  In asia where they drive on the wrong side of the road I had some help before getting run over.Wish it were so here. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

| | So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude | offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to | flame?? | | Look both ways before stepping out in traffic? | — | Charlie…

Response:

 Charlie,   Not takin it personal. I know a bit about the exasperation with clueless newbies and asking the same question 30 different ways.Just tryin to learn here. I admit at 50 it might take some learning but if I ask a question and get nothing back what has gone on?  Is my question so stupid that it is undeserving of an answer? Or is it just that the elite feel they don’t like clueless newbies ? —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

| | Charlie, | | In asia where they drive on the wrong side of the road I had some help | before getting run over.Wish it were so here. | | I didn’t and almost got hit the 1st time or two, but I figured it out | pretty quick on my own. They don’t much worry about hitting | pedestrians over there, especially American ones. I didn’t take it | personally, though. FWIW. | — | Charlie…

Response:

if I ask a question and get nothing back what has gone on?  Is my question so stupid that it is undeserving of an answer? Or is it just that the elite feel they don’t like clueless newbies ?

Maybe nobody knows the answer? — Charlie…

Response:

Charlie, In asia where they drive on the wrong side of the road I had some help before getting run over.Wish it were so here.

I didn’t and almost got hit the 1st time or two, but I figured it out pretty quick on my own. They don’t much worry about hitting pedestrians over there, especially American ones. I didn’t take it personally, though. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig.

Actually, clueless newbies who are polite are taken pity on and helped to a wealth of comprehensive fly-fishing knowledge that spans the globe. Clueless newbies with a bad attitude are despised and flamed.   It’s a pretty simple distinction actually.   I’m sure you’ll see the difference pretty soon. Joe F. Newbie once, clueless never.

Response:

Don, It happens. Some questions are somehow not touched by anyone, while other, most of the time completely unexpected and without any relation to the original topic, change into threads that run for weeks and even turn into mudslinging contests. Can you imagine there was the digital equivalent of a barfight over the definition of meniscus?? Don’t ask, you might stir up the, ehmm.. nevermind. And as for elite.. there is no such thing as elite over here. Just stick around, and don’t hesitate to ask a question. Have fun, Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Charlie,   Not takin it personal. I know a bit about the exasperation with clueless newbies and asking the same question 30 different ways.Just tryin to learn here. I admit at 50 it might take some learning but if I ask a question and get nothing back what has gone on?  Is my question so stupid that it is undeserving of an answer? Or is it just that the elite feel they don’t like clueless newbies ? —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air. | | Charlie, | | In asia where they drive on the wrong side of the road I had some help | before getting run over.Wish it were so here. | | I didn’t and almost got hit the 1st time or two, but I figured it out | pretty quick on my own. They don’t much worry about hitting | pedestrians over there, especially American ones. I didn’t take it | personally, though. FWIW. | — | Charlie…

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

 Pretty good list but we’re still missing a few.  I can’t find you anywhere.  There were no pictures of a taxonomists anywhere, but can I still send you that bow by UPS to get stuffed?

Stuff it!    Oops, I meant; stuff it?  

Response:

 So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig.

Umm, excuse me for interrupting, but you spelled "pig" wrong. — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

…[stuff] —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

p.s. Love your sig line – who designed it for you, Steve Z.? — Regards, Jeff Before you buy.

Response:

As an erstwhile taxonomist I have always been somewhat distressed by the lack of fine distinction made in describing the various individuals we encounter here.  The recent "Let me know what you think" thread is a case in point; spammer, troll, clueless newbie, and asshole simply do not suffice for differentiating among the multifarious life forms which frequent this pond.  to help remedy this situation I offer the following: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html Let the games begin!

Response:

As an erstwhile taxonomist I have always been somewhat distressed by the lack of fine distinction made in describing the various individuals we encounter here.  The recent "Let me know what you think" thread is a case in point; spammer, troll, clueless newbie, and asshole simply do not suffice for differentiating among the multifarious life forms which frequent this pond.  to help remedy this situation I offer the following: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html Let the games begin!

 Pretty good list but we’re still missing a few.  I can’t find you anywhere.  There were no pictures of a taxonomists anywhere, but can I still send you that bow by UPS to get stuffed? Peter

Response:

 So clueless newbies are to be despised ?? Being one I find your attitude offensive.How else are we to learn if folks like you are so soon to flame??Hell I bet dollars to donuts you were once a clueless newbie yourself you selfrighteous prig. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

| | As an erstwhile taxonomist I have always been somewhat distressed by the | lack of fine distinction made in describing the various individuals we | encounter here.  The recent "Let me know what you think" thread is a | case in point; spammer, troll, clueless newbie, and asshole simply do | not suffice for differentiating among the multifarious life forms which | frequent this pond.  to help remedy this situation I offer the | following: | | http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html | | Let the games begin! | |  Pretty good list but we’re still missing a few.  I can’t find you | anywhere.  There were no pictures of a taxonomists anywhere, but can I | still send you that bow by UPS to get stuffed? | | Peter | |

Response:

Question:

I flew to Wyoming a couple of years ago and the ticketing agent told me I could not take my rod tube on board, You were flying to Wyoming…?  Why didn’t you just put it in the gun rack ?

Because the sheep were in the way. — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

Response:

I flew to Wyoming a couple of years ago and the ticketing agent told me I could not take my rod tube on board,

You were flying to Wyoming…?  Why didn’t you just put it in the gun rack ? — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

I’m using a free ticket with Delta to go fishing and want to take two rods with me.  They sent a notice about restrictions for carry on luggage beginning last April 15 that will appear to prohibit fly rod tubes based on their size.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad, with Delta?  Thanks much.

        nope; the last experience i had with delta was about thirty years ago at the sigma chi house at unc chapel hill.  never will forget the way she looked the day she left me.         a. wayne harrison

Response:

writes: I flew to Montana on Delta last year. They let me put my rod in the closet. (Just don;t forget it when you get off!) Maybe it would be best to clear it with them ahead of time, but I really doubt that you’ll have a problem.    Steve Barnard

I flew to Wyoming a couple of years ago and the ticketing agent told me I could not take my rod tube on board, while my buddy at the next window down was told that it would be OK for him to take his tube as a carry on.  Both tubes were the same size, by the way. Brent

Response:

I’m using a free ticket with Delta to go fishing and want to take two rods with me.  They sent a notice about restrictions for carry on luggage beginning last April 15 that will appear to prohibit fly rod tubes based on their size.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad, with Delta?  Thanks much.

Tell ‘em they’re bombs….folkes seem to have no trouble getting them aboard. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Response:

I’m using a free ticket with Delta to go fishing and want to take two rods with me.  They sent a notice about restrictions for carry on luggage beginning last April 15 that will appear to prohibit fly rod tubes based on their size.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad, with Delta?  Thanks much.

I flew Delta last July.  They said I had to check my rod case because the aircraft was a small commuter type.  However, they did allow me to "wing check" it.  I carried it as far as the steps leading into the aircraft and an attendent took the rod case and put it in baggage area. When I got off the aircraft, the reverse took place.   Air Canada did not afford me the same courtesy on a connecting flight.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

I’m using a free ticket with Delta to go fishing and want to take two rods with me.  They sent a notice about restrictions for carry on luggage beginning last April 15 that will appear to prohibit fly rod tubes based on their size.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad, with Delta?  Thanks much.

Delta’s been getting beat up on timely departures and arrivals so expect them to be less sympathetic than in the past. Pack your bags as if they will be checked. — Charlie…

Response:

I’m using a free ticket with Delta to go fishing and want to take two rods with me.  They sent a notice about restrictions for carry on luggage beginning last April 15 that will appear to prohibit fly rod tubes based on their size.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad, with Delta?  Thanks much.

I flew to Montana on Delta last year. They let me put my rod in the closet. (Just don;t forget it when you get off!) Maybe it would be best to clear it with them ahead of time, but I really doubt that you’ll have a problem.         Steve Barnard

Response:

I’m using a free ticket with Delta to go fishing and want to take two rods with me.  They sent a notice about restrictions for carry on luggage beginning last April 15 that will appear to prohibit fly rod tubes based on their size.  Has anyone had any recent experience, good or bad, with Delta?  Thanks much.

Response:

Question:

Thinking about camping in vermont and want input on good campgrounds with large private sites and activities for children. I was looking at Lake Dunmore Kampersville. Has anyone ever been there and what is it like. Thanks Pat

Pat, Lake Dunmore is very nice.  You may also want to look at the Vermont State Parks Website.  I have included my standard message below for your ease of access.  Good luck. You can visit the Vermont State Parks website at http://www.state.vt.us/anr/fpr/parks/. The site details all of Vermont’s state parks and camping opportunities. James Ehlers Underhill, Vemont Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service 1997 Guide of the Year Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

Response:

The 1998 Vermont Campground Guide is now in print. Call VT Forests and Parks at 802-241-3655 to have a copy mailed to you. The guide lists all state parks as well as private. Good descriptions for both. VT Campground Association:  http://www.campvermont.com VT Forests & Parks:   http://www.state.vt.us/anr/fpr/parks Dev Vallencourt                      "Simplicity is the essence Center Designs                                 of good design." Waterbury Center, VT         -Mr. Brossier, 7th gr. art teacher http://www.sover.net/~laserldy

Response:

Thinking about camping in vermont and want input on good campgrounds with large private sites and activities for children. I was looking at Lake Dunmore Kampersville. Has anyone ever been there and what is it like. Thanks Pat

Response:

Question:

I’ll be in Livingston, MT in early Aug. I’d like to know if there are places to fly fish near town? I’ll probably be in the Comfort Inn. I’m not looking for trophies, just easy access and some fun. I’d like to be able to give the family the car so I can fish. Is there fishing in walking distance to that part of town? I’ve never been there, so I need advice.

Response:

I’ll be in Livingston, MT in early Aug. I’d like to know if there are places to fly fish near town? I’ll probably be in the Comfort Inn. I’m not looking for trophies, just easy access and some fun. I’d like to be able to give the family the car so I can fish. Is there fishing in walking distance to that part of town? I’ve never been there, so I need advice.

Hi Gerys The Yellowstone River flows right through town and good fishing often can be right at your back door. If close access is your goal then try fishing around the channels near the 9th St bridge, up or down stream from Mayer’s Landing, or Carter’s Bridge (about 2 miles south of town). Good luck & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

Question:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

buncha people, to be sure. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry buncha people, to be sure. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

  Hi Tim   No doubt , but I’m stuck.   Harry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry buncha people, to be sure. — TimW Halfordian Golfer   Hi Tim   No doubt , but I’m stuck.   Harry

What are the tibs of the madison ?  I bet some of the small ones are incredible… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

Response:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

A friend down in West tells me there are some salmonflies on the Madison now, and some good fishing in the park as well….It is getting hot…around 90 degrees today…perhaps a caddis in the evening?

Response:

  Going in week , anyone know what’s happening on the Madison?   TIA   Harry

Hi Harry As of last night it’s fishing great. A few golden stones and caddis are what I was using. Hoppers should be happing soon. Enjoy your trip. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

Question:

Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

Response:

Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

Hi Peter I’ve cast both rods and they are fine. To me the travel rod seemed slightly faster but that could just be my immagination. They are both fine rods. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

Peter, I can’t give you a comparison as I don’t have both rods, however I do have the 5/6 St Croix travel rod. It compares favorably with my Sage 2 piece rods, which are the LL series. Mine is going into it’s 3rd season now, and I have no complaints whatever, in fact, I’m thinking of getting their 3/4 wt travel rod as well. Best buy on the market for my money.  Good luck. — Frank Church Elkhart, IN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

Response:

Would like to get some feedbacks on this particular rod before making purchase.   How does it compares with the St Croix 9 foot 5/6 two piece rod?? -peter

I’ve been using the St. Croix pack rod exclusively for 4 years now.  It is ideal anywhere, anytime.  Really has a lot of power for shooting into the wind also.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

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Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

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            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

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Question:

I was thinking of trying out the Hiwassee river in western Tennessee this weekend.  Anyone know the fishing (trout, that is) and water level conditions?  In particular, is the river wade-able at this time of the year?

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I was thinking of trying out the Hiwassee river in western

Tennessee this weekend.  Anyone know the fishing (trout, that is) and water level conditions?  In particular, is the river wade-able at this time of the year?<< I plan on fishing it Sunday morning, reports I’ve been getting indicates releases are starting late morning which should allow wading in the lower part of the trophy section until early afternoon. It’s been my limited experience that the fishing is almost always good. Don’t know for sure what’s coming off besides the ever present caddis but I always take some BWO, sulphurs, and hendricksons along with the usual nymphal stuff just in care. Wayne Knight Marietta GA                                              

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.in ternetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!jethro.msfc.nasa.gov!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: NASA/MSFC Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: jethro.msfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.3 sun4m) I was thinking of trying out the Hiwassee river in western Tennessee this weekend.  Anyone know the fishing (trout, that is) and water level conditions?  In particular, is the river wade-able at this time of the year?

I wish I could go with you. Fun river. Try right above the bridge at reliance (gas station).  If you got float tubes do that also spectacular river. I almost drowned at 2 wheels, waders filled, scared the piss out of me. Otherwise safe river. Have fun. Brad Barricklow, Columbus Ohio.

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You can call 1-800 238-2264 which is the TVA hot line. When it answers push #4 which is generation levels. Then when the two letter code is requested, pust 22, the code for Appalacia Dam. They will then give you the last 8 hours of generation in CFS, followed by the generation schedule for the rest of the day. If you  call after 4PM EDT you can get the schedule for the next day. The river is usually fished during no generation but some people use tubes with one generator and drift boat it when 2 generators are running. I would be careful if you are not familiar with the river as the bottom is very irregular. Watch for water rising and get out.The river has been fishing pretty good but they have had a lot of rain this year in East Tn. The Adams fly shop is near the town or Reliance and they are a good source of info. Good luck. J.

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Question:

   I drove down to the Rapidan River today for the first time since the early summer flood to see firsthand what kind of shape it is in.    I followed my standard route to the upper sections of the river:      - Rt. 29 south from I-66      - Rt. 231 north at Madison      - Rt. 670 (left) at Banco (road follows Robinson River)      - Rt. 649 (left) just past Criglersville (follows Quaker Run)      - follow Rt. 649 past where pavement ends, up and over        Chapman Mountain, down to the Rapidan about 1.5 mi.        above where Staunton Run joins the Rapidan    First, the Robinson River, being wide and channelized already, didn’t seem to sustain any flood damage worth mentioning.    Rt. 649, along Quaker Run, obviously sustained a lot of damage; entire sections of previously paved road were recently replaced with gravel…homes along Quaker Run suffered damage to property but most had already recovered (re-grading, re-seeding, etc.)  No problem getting up Rt. 649, however.    The unpaved section of Rt. 649 that runs up and over the mountain is now in _better_ shape than before the flood, thanks to a recent re-grading.  From the point (at the top of Chapman Mountain) where 649 enters Shenandoah National Park, the road is not only re-graded but evenly covered with gravel.  Driving over it was a breeze (no more washboard corrugations).    At the intersection of the road that parallels the Rapidan (Rt. 662) and Rt. 649 (where the big pool and parking area is), Rt. 662 (that follows the river) has been closed to vehicular traffic my a massive pile of dirt that a HUM-V couldn’t even get over.    Happily, the Rapidan River upstream of the confluence with Staunton Run (I didn’t look below that point) shows virtually NO signs of flood-related damage.  The river bed (consisting of bedrock and car-sized boulders) is totally intact, and pretty much looks the same as it always has.    The only signs of a flood are occasional cobble/gravel bars at the tail end of pools where previously they were smaller or non-existent; also I spotted a few places where a huge torrent had obviously raged down the mountainside into the Rapidan, evident by the gravel washes and clutter of dead trees piled up next to the river.    The Rapidan inside Shenandoah National Park is now open for fishing. "Closed to Fishing" signs have been removed.  I saw two people flyfishing, both of whom confirmed that yes, there are still plenty of brookies left in the Rapidan.  Each had caught a few in the 6-8" range and reported seeing others, some larger.    Small pools were full of minnows (I couldn’t identify them) and insects were abundant.  So it looks like the Brook Trout just hunkered down during the flood, just as they have done for millenia.  Their numbers may be less than before the flood, but they’re still there, and I plan to get back there for some fishing soon!    — Scott Wilkinson        Washington, DC

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GREAT news about the Rapidan! #                         |  "But someday, man, someday…when you are     # #                         |   outta here, and you’ve forgotten about this  # #                         |   place, and they’ve forgotten about you, and  # #     Paul Graham         |   you’re wrapped up in your own pathetic life  # #                         |   I’m going to kick the livin’ shit outta you  # #                         |   man…I’m going to knock your dick in the    # #                         |   dirt!" – From "The Breakfast Club"           #

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