Question:

Know nothing about fly fishing. Was in Colorado River County park Parker, AZ couple weeks ago. They have a pond next to the river and separated by net. A lady sitting there keep throwing hook(?) out and keep getting trout(?) up. The waiting time is like couple minutes. It must be the place to build your confidence. My wife had a chat with her. She is from Washington State and been there for 3 months now.

Wonder if it is the same lady that was hauling in nice catfish last year using hot dogs for bait? LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – =

Response:

 VC is 20 minutes down the road.  I could certianly take you on a tour if your in the area and show you some stuff that is not on the brochures.

Been to Virginia City and loved it!  Will let you know next time. Hunter

Response:

Know nothing about fly fishing. Was in Colorado River County park Parker, AZ couple weeks ago. They have a pond next to the river and separated by net. A lady sitting there keep throwing hook(?) out and keep getting trout(?) up. The waiting time is like couple minutes. It must be the place to build your confidence. My wife had a chat with her. She is from Washington State and been there for 3 months now. =OK.  I got a new RV so I could get on the road and not worry about the oil =leaks and dry rot on the older 76 rig.  I love that old rig, but would not =take it more than 100 miles from home (my safety zone).  Now I’m free.  I =added a 2000/4000 watt inverter and solar panels so I could boondock and not =have to listen to the generator and I carry two 50 gallon drums of fresh =dinking water in a trailer in addition to the water in the MH tank.  So I =can boondock, but don’t have to. = =I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to =walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV =but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a =few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday =present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my =own creations. = =So now the question of the day is, where am I going next month on a two week =vacation.  I’d like to go somewhere around end of March or beginning of =April.  And a bonus would be an opportunity to spank a turkey, but if going =to Canada would probably opt to leave guns behind. (I know I can take a =shotgun, but don’t want to).  So…if you were based in Reno, where and why =would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences. = =I’m getting so excited about this I can’t focus at work. = =Thanks for any suggestions. = =Nate = — E-Mail: Cool Underscore Underscore Hand at Hotmail DOT KOM FAX: 775-243-6288 One of the BEST Free GPS Mapping Program Garmap http://www.catnet.ne.jp/fukuda/garmap/e_garmap.html Since people makes mistakes, how can we trust any interpretation of anything?

Response:

I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my own creations.

You’re asking the wrong newsgroup. Take this question to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly for ideas on where to go in your area, there are posters there who live in your vicinity. And also check into rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying for the obvious reason.

Response:

<snip I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my own creations. So now the question of the day is, where am I going next month on a two week vacation.  I’d like to go somewhere around end of March or beginning of April.  And a bonus would be an opportunity to spank a turkey, but if going to Canada would probably opt to leave guns behind. (I know I can take a shotgun, but don’t want to).  So…if you were based in Reno, where and why would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences.

<snip Have you been to the Hat Creek area in No. California?  It’s world famous for it’s fly fishing – don’t know about turkey season.  There are several Forest Service Campgrounds on Hat Creek that runs along Highway 89 north of Lassen Park.  One that is out of the way and right on the creek is Big Pine, part of the Lassen National Forest campground system.  I believe that it can handle units up to 26′ in length but it might be 24′ and they only have about 20 sites.  There are several others in the area but many are right next to the Highway and not as quiet during the day.  You can look at some of them at their website: http://www.r5.fs.fed.us/lassen/hat_creek.htm.  Weather would still be a bit on the cool side at night but daytime temps should be pleasant and the countryside is hard to beat. Baby Sis

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I got a new RV so I could get on the road and not worry about the oil leaks and dry rot on the older 76 rig.  I love that old rig, but would not take it more than 100 miles from home (my safety zone).  Now I’m free.  I added a 2000/4000 watt inverter and solar panels so I could boondock and not have to listen to the generator and I carry two 50 gallon drums of fresh dinking water in a trailer in addition to the water in the MH tank.  So I can boondock, but don’t have to. I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my own creations. So now the question of the day is, where am I going next month on a two week vacation.  I’d like to go somewhere around end of March or beginning of April.  And a bonus would be an opportunity to spank a turkey, but if going to Canada would probably opt to leave guns behind. (I know I can take a shotgun, but don’t want to).  So…if you were based in Reno, where and why would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences. I’m getting so excited about this I can’t focus at work. Thanks for any suggestions. Nate

I liked the Laughlin area (way far south Nevada, about 100 Miles S of LV), right by the Colorado river, very warm (even in the winter), has a few lakes, lots of RV parks, lots to do, Bull Head City and Kingman AZ across the river, lots of boondocking places not far away, and even a bit further south is Lake Havasu. I liked it so much I went there for vacation for two weeks, and ended up staying 6 months. Laughlin, Nevada – Laughlin Nevada’s Official Web Site. Check out their website at: http://www.enjoylaughlin.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I got a new RV so I could get on the road and not worry about the oil leaks and dry rot on the older 76 rig.  I love that old rig, but would not take it more than 100 miles from home (my safety zone).  Now I’m free.  I added a 2000/4000 watt inverter and solar panels so I could boondock and not have to listen to the generator and I carry two 50 gallon drums of fresh dinking water in a trailer in addition to the water in the MH tank.  So I can boondock, but don’t have to. I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my own creations. So now the question of the day is, where am I going next month on a two week vacation.  I’d like to go somewhere around end of March or beginning of April.  And a bonus would be an opportunity to spank a turkey, but if going to Canada would probably opt to leave guns behind. (I know I can take a shotgun, but don’t want to).  So…if you were based in Reno, where and why would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences. I’m getting so excited about this I can’t focus at work. Thanks for any suggestions. Nate

A friend of ours can’t wait to get back to Oregon for the spring salmon fishing on the Umpqua.  I think the season opens on the 23rd of March. Spring turkey hunting would be pretty iffy.  I don’t know of any state that sells non-resident licenses over the counter, except maybe in the south.  Many are by lottery only and you have to apply long in advance. Have fun. LZ

Response:

 So…if you were based in Reno, where and why would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences.

If I got a new rig I would do a shakedown weekend up the hill in Virginia City. Hunter

Response:

… I carry two 50 gallon drums of fresh dinking water in a trailer in addition to the water in the MH tank.  So I can boondock, but don’t have to.

Hey, Nate. What are you going to do with the "used" water? Maybe you could pump it into a couple of empty 50 gallon drums, carried for the purpose. I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my own creations. So now the question of the day is, where am I going next month on a two week vacation.

… Any place in the Great Basin is going to have cold nights. If you don’t mind a bit of snow, in addition to the cold nights, how ’bout the Ruby Mountains, about 10 miles south of Elko? There’s a Nat’l Forest campground there (check to Web). –RW

Response:

 So…if you were based in Reno, where and why would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences. If I got a new rig I would do a shakedown weekend up the hill in Virginia City. Hunter

I failed to mention that I did 26 shake down trips to various lakes in Northern California and North Western Nevada last summer.  Been there, done that.  VC is 20 minutes down the road.  I could certianly take you on a tour if your in the area and show you some stuff that is not on the brochures. We used to hunt rattle snakes in the area so bring some snake shot!  Yikes! Nate

Response:

OK.  I got a new RV so I could get on the road and not worry about the oil leaks and dry rot on the older 76 rig.  I love that old rig, but would not take it more than 100 miles from home (my safety zone).  Now I’m free.  I added a 2000/4000 watt inverter and solar panels so I could boondock and not have to listen to the generator and I carry two 50 gallon drums of fresh dinking water in a trailer in addition to the water in the MH tank.  So I can boondock, but don’t have to. I’m in Reno, NV.  I love the west.  I love the outdoors.  I like to walk/hike, ride mountain bikes, use metal detectors to find relics, have ATV but rarely use it.  But my true passion is fly fishing.  I just started a few years ago when my brother in law gave me lessons and gear as a birthday present.  I started tying my own flys, but have yet to catch something on my own creations. So now the question of the day is, where am I going next month on a two week vacation.  I’d like to go somewhere around end of March or beginning of April.  And a bonus would be an opportunity to spank a turkey, but if going to Canada would probably opt to leave guns behind. (I know I can take a shotgun, but don’t want to).  So…if you were based in Reno, where and why would you go?  Where would you stay?  Tell me about your experiences. I’m getting so excited about this I can’t focus at work. Thanks for any suggestions. Nate

Response:

Question:

Two places in paradise. Does anyone have any tips for flyfihing the Animas River around Durango. We are vacationing in the area the 2nd week in June. My plans also include a day on the San Juan but my concern is that the water will be high with spring run-off and extra water released for irrigation. Any input appreciated. guy

Response:

Yes.  My tip of the day is stop in the Durango Fly Shop. George Gehrke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two places in paradise. Does anyone have any tips for flyfihing the Animas River around Durango. We are vacationing in the area the 2nd week in June. My plans also include a day on the San Juan but my concern is that the water will be high with spring run-off and extra water released for irrigation. Any input appreciated. guy

Response:

Two places in paradise. Does anyone have any tips for flyfihing the Animas River around Durango. We are vacationing in the area the 2nd week in June. My plans also include a day on the San Juan but my concern is that the water will be high with spring run-off and extra water released for irrigation. Any input appreciated. guy

There will be no runoff in that part of Colorado. There is VERY little snow or no snow left in the southern mountains. They are predicting major fish kills in southern Colorado this year because of lack of snowpack. Things might be OK in mid June, but things will get bad soon after. Willi

Response:

I’d go to Duranglers, right on Main St. http://www.duranglers.com bruce h

Response:

Two places in paradise. Does anyone have any tips for fly fishing the Animas River around Durango. We are vacationing in the area the 2nd week in June. My plans also include a day on the San Juan but my concern is that the water will be high with spring run-off and extra water released for irrigation. Any input appreciated. guy

IMHO: Be prepared with alternatives close by such as Delores, etc.  I have found that the Animas is a 50/50 if there is a lot of rain at the time you want to fish.  It gets rather roiled and can be a tough nut to crack if there is a lot of rain.  Same with the San Miguel. SJ should be good, but watch the flows, again a lot depends on good old CO getting some badly needed rain. K

Response:

Thanks all! (The upper Delores is on my list also. Did pretty good there last year on caddis and terrestrials. Lower Delores skunked me – tough river in the summer). guy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two places in paradise. Does anyone have any tips for fly fishing the Animas River around Durango. We are vacationing in the area the 2nd week in June. My plans also include a day on the San Juan but my concern is that the water will be high with spring run-off and extra water released for irrigation. Any input appreciated. guy IMHO: Be prepared with alternatives close by such as Delores, etc.  I have found that the Animas is a 50/50 if there is a lot of rain at the time you want to fish.  It gets rather roiled and can be a tough nut to crack if there is a lot of rain.  Same with the San Miguel. SJ should be good, but watch the flows, again a lot depends on good old CO getting some badly needed rain. K

Response:

Your ace in the hole is the San Juan River.  If you can afford it, hire out a guide and go there for a couple of days with or without one.  This is tail water and there is enough talent always fishing it that you can talk too. It’s a shame if you don’t plan enough time to stay in the area long enough to smell the roses. George Gehrke

Response:

George, Don’t worry about the roses. I will be smelling plenty of them with the family there. I will have 3 days to fish, possibly 4 if I beg. The smell of trout water – kinda like heaven – is much preferred over roses. (We are splitting our 9 days between Telluride and Durango). guy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your ace in the hole is the San Juan River.  If you can afford it, hire out a guide and go there for a couple of days with or without one.  This is tail water and there is enough talent always fishing it that you can talk too. It’s a shame if you don’t plan enough time to stay in the area long enough to smell the roses. George Gehrke

Response:

Thanks all! (The upper Delores is on my list also. Did pretty good there last year on caddis and terrestrials. Lower Delores skunked me – tough river in the summer).

The DOW is predicting a "total" fish kill on the Delores this summer. Willi

Response:

George, Don’t worry about the roses. I will be smelling plenty of them with the family there. I will have 3 days to fish, possibly 4 if I beg. The smell of trout water – kinda like heaven – is much preferred over roses. (We are splitting our 9 days between Telluride and Durango).

Telluride is too high and it’s mostly "upper water" and actually hard to breath there.  It takes 30 days just to acclimate.  Durango is almost like going for the bull’s-eye.  That Gunnison Black Canyon is, "interesting". Well, you know what you’re doing. George

Response:

Telluride is too high and it’s mostly "upper water" and actually hard to breath there.  It takes 30 days just to acclimate…..

Two years ago Becky and I went on a little trip.  We drove from our home in Milwaukee (the highest point in Milwaukee is 816 feet above sea level) to a parking lot on the western edge of Rocky Mountain National Park.  From there, we commenced a six day backpacking trip (her first ever) in the Never Summer Wilderness which took us to over 12,000 feet on the third day…..we started at 9,000 and reached 11,200 on the first day.  It was a tough first day, and the third wasn’t much better, but we "acclimated" within twenty-four hours or so. As always, George is entirely full of shit and absolutely incapable of rendering an opinion on ANYTHING without a boatload of factual errors, and worse.  There is more to be said with regard to this matter, but I am content to let it rest here for the moment unless anyone who hasn’t been here long enough to get to know him would like a bit of background……or unless George insists. Wolfgang your move shithead.

Response:

The DOW is predicting a "total" fish kill on the Delores this summer.

What about any of the other rivers in the region?  I’m really concerned about a number of SWern Colorado trout streams and rivers.  I spent quite a bit of time in the region last year and it was in pretty bad shape.  That was in a year where they had above average snowfall, but still experiencing the effects of drought conditions from previous years.  My favorite high mountain stream might become a nice little sand creek…. — remove all x and y’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Question:

I believe their was a case a couple of years ago concerning an Angel Flight. One of their aircraft had broken down while on a mission in a remote area. One of the other Angel Flight volunteer pilots flew a mechanic in his own aircraft to repair the downed aircraft. The FAA gave this pilot a violation for flying a "commercial" flight without the proper ratings. Their reasoning was since the Mechanic was being paid to repair the other aircraft that made it a commercial flight operation by definition and that it did not fall under the Angel Flight exclusion even though the pilot received no compensation and donated his time and aircraft expenses. Apparently a charter service at their home field had complained to the FAA because they felt they should have flown and been paid for the repair flight. This situation is similar and would probably end the same way. If the FAA doesn’t have it brought to their attention, they most likely won’t come looking and won’t really care. But, if someone like an airport manager, FBO, or charter service complains that their losing revenue, then the results will usually be in favor of the commercial operation and against the individual. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

What is the compensation that he or anyone else is getting? Who hired him? I still don’t understand the problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I still don’t understand what is particularly grey about this. What compensation is he or anyone else getting? And what does "commonality of purpose" have to do with it? Doesn’t the FAA have the burden of proof that a violation occurred? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could

find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks.

Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

Anyone really care?  You are doing your friend a favor and if you feel like it is worth it, ask him to chip in by paying the landing fee. The Feds aren’t going to be there looking over your should just waiting to catch you allowing someone else to pay your landing fee. You know most won’t even care. If you were recieving compensation for doing this that would be one thing but you’re not. Even then they would have to catch you. Let him pay the landing fee. If the Feds want to take away your license for something they will, period. There won’t be any stopping them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

My 250 and your 350 have the same frame, of course the engines are the same also.  You just have more lug nuts to take off when you get a flat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend.

What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I agree with Jim….as I usually do, being a fellow Piper owner…anyway… I find this type of thread always amusing…you can’t do that because it is for ‘hire’ or in this case ‘no commonality of purpose’. With all due respect to Mr. Gruber and everyone else who feels that way…to quote my friend down south…BULLSQUAT! ALL my flights are for ME.  I fly for fun, not profit, I love to go different places.  So, your honor, when Mr. X asked me if I would take him to BFE, I said, sure, having never been there, I looked forward to going and checking it out.  I then decided with or without him, I was gonna explore BFE, and started to make my flight plans.  Just so happens since he was still wanting to go to BFE, and I was wanting to go someplace new, we both had a common purpose for the flight..we BOTH wanted to go to BFE equally….thus, I did not fly him to BFE, he came with me on yet another $100 hamburger run to someplace I had not yet been….BFE…and that your honor is my story….   Its true!  Bottom Line…..have fun and fly safe!!! Garrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights. Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved. Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Frank, you are going to be beaten bloody by gnats, on this topic… First, you are in a somewhat grey area of the regs… You say you are donating your time and gas and I accept that… Others, who are hostile to you or your friend for whatever reason, will say you are performing a commercial flight operation, air taxi, without the ratings, etc… My position is, that as long as you are not being paid in any fashion other than your own satisfaction, it is your airplane to fly wherever and whenever, ala. Angel Flights, etc… <still a free country… If you choose to arrange your schedule with your friend so he can accomplish his own purposes, that is between you two and it is still a Part 91 flight… I have a friend that I routinely fly with… My plans usually are contingent upon his needs, when we leave, when we come back, etc..  The Professional Hand Wringers (PHW) are all over this board, and the minutae artists among them would try to make the case that if I wait even five minutes for him, it is now magically an air taxi operation and I’m in violation, yadda, yadda, yadda, all over the place… Now the PHW will be all over you, so you, like Caesars wife, have to be above reproach that what you are doing is your own personal satisfaction, that you are not using the trips to  build hours towards a commercial rating, that the friend is not sending you and the wife on a missionary trip to Guatemala <or where ever, etc…  nada, nothing, sparkling clean… Also, the friend better not be hiring an air taxi when you are not available… That would be tough to explain away if the FAA got into it… The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not… The analogy here, is an employee of a corporation may fly the corporate plane on company business, without his being a commercial pilot… That does not protect him/them from paying the commercial operations fee when that plane, with the corporate logo all over it, lands and taxi’s in to the fbo… From  my perspective, have the friend pay the fee, since it is his activity that is commercial, not yours, or make an arrangement that you will buy the 20 gallons of gas on some fixed schedule, or otherwise get an agreement with her… <I’m actually against anything other than his paying the fee, because money appearing out of your hand in any fashion makes YOU look like a commercial operation Or find another airport and keep your mouth(s) shut <probably the best solution… I would advise against making a major fight out of it with the airport manager… She has the ultimate weapon of filing a complaint with the FAA that you are running a clandestine air taxi… Not good – not fun – lotsa grief…. Cheers  …  Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I think you are stretching the interpretation a bit.  If a friend suggests that the fishing is good in MT, and we fly there in my plane, it is not a commercial flight.  To be a commercial flight the person/entity providing the flight must receive something in return. I would agree with your interpretation if they were splitting costs. Mike MU-2   Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods.

Bullsquat. If one could not fly someone for free when there was no commonality of purpose, Angel Flight could not exist. As long as he does not receive any compensation, he should be OK. Given the nature of the radio station (Christian non-profit), Frank may be entitled to deduct his out of pocket costs (or even perhaps the wet local rate for a C150) from his taxes. The ‘landing charge’ seems more like an FBO ramp fee to me. -Greg

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim,    I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on!

Response:

I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Jim,     I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on! — Joe Schneider Cherokee 8437R Advanced F-150 Supercab rating Numerous other spamcans not worth mentioning     Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.     Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with     it to me.<<     That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.     Snip Karl’s nonsense…     Karl     ATP     LR-Jet     CE-500     BE-300     15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot     Ooooh!     —     Jim Fisher     Cherokee 140     Warrior II     Cherokee 180     Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)     Ford F-150

Response:

The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not…

That may or may not be the case here. Frank did not say that they are charging the landing fee because it’s a commercial operation. Sounds to me like they have decided to charge fees for everybody. The only place "commercial" came into it was the proposal to have his friend pay the landing fee. And that is where it gets sticky. If he does so, he’s contributing to the cost of the flight and the "commonality of purpose" becomes an issue (as others have said). George Patterson,  N3162Q.

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

  Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   So another pilot and I are planning to fly to Mooselips, Nevada for a little fun.  He’s interested in brunettes.  I have a big thing (okay, maybe an average thing . . . okay, maybe . . . never mind) for blondes.     There’s no "commonality of purpose" since blondes and red heads are obviously from different planets.  So I have to foot the entire bill, right?   Okay, you have to go to a Troll convention in Californy.  I need to go there for a He-Man High Wing Hater convention.  I’m not sure that I’d wanna fly with you anyway but if we could, we couldn’t, right?   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   So, can I kinda hint around at the idea until my friend gets the message about going?  Does this need to be in writing?  Will a handshake count as a "ruling" or do we have to slice our palms and share blood?   Incidentally, the word "commonality" is not mentioned in the FAR’s anywhere.  Yeah, I was suckered enough to look it up and am pretty sure I pselled it right.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot   Ooooh!   —   Jim Fisher   Cherokee 140   Warrior II   Cherokee 180   Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)   Ford F-150

Response:

That doesn’t agree with what I learned. Where in part 91 does it say that? Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn

Several points to ponder: Get Garcia’s book on graphite rodbuilding. tons of good info there, especially if you’ll be turning the rod by hand. also: Instead of 5 minute epoxy for the reel seat, etc, go for something with a slightly longer cure time. I found some 15′ stuff that worked well, and was even stronger. makes you a bit less nervous about getting everything the way you want it in 5′ as well. Keep redoing the wraps until they’re just the way you want them. Wrap the winding check last; it’s the most visible wrap when you’re fishing, and by saving it for the end, you’ll have all that practice beforehand. Take one last look at the wraps and the guide alignment before you mix the rod finish. Once the epoxy goes on the rod, there’s no turning back. Use syringes to measure the epoxy and hardener, and use only syringes made/sold expressly for rodbuilding. Medical syringes, while cheap and abundant, have nothing to offer the rodbuilder but misery and regret. You *will* get bubbles in the finished wraps. Steam from a cup of hot water will make them go away. I’ve hand-turned all my rods and gotten nice results. Got nothing against the automatic turners, just don’t have one. Follow Garcia’s suggestions for turning intervals and you should be fine. I strongly suggest that you use an oven timer or something similar to remind you to get up and turn the rod, especially near the end, when the intervals have stretched to 30-60′. Finally, my overall advice is to be patient, and do a quality job. Your care (or haste) in building it will be evident for many years. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

Acetone must be used with great care near rods. It will eat into the blank and damage it irreparably. Alcohol is better for wiping off excess epoxy for this reason. TL MC

Response:

Thanks Guys,  I’m going crazy waiting for the damn thing to arrive in the mail.I was hoping to get it done this week while I’m still on vacation.I have a video and a pretty good book so I’m hoping things will go pretty smoothly, but no book or video can prepare you for my own personal style of screwups.My attitude is if I mess up I’ll just scrape it off and start over until I get it right. Regards,Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion Acetone must be used with great care near rods. It will eat into the blank and damage it irreparably. Alcohol is better for wiping off excess epoxy for this reason. TL MC

Response:

Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn

Response:

I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders.

They watch some damn show that captures their interest and don’t turn the rod often enough. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – regards,Shawn

Response:

I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. It starts with opening the package and goes down hill from there. The bright side is…you learn from every mistake. Have fun…it really ain’t that hard. jim

Response:

Its already been said –  Epoxy keeps flowing after you’r really sure it’s set up.  You may turn the thing for hours and be sure it set, so you put it up.  Next morning bumps where overnight the stuff has continued to flow.  If you can jury rig something to turn it do so ( I made one cheap using a dryer timing motor 6RPM) If you have never built or repaired a rod before I suggest going to Goodwill or Salvation Army and buying one.  Redo the guides and then give it back to them, it’s cheap practice. Good Luck

I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -builders. regards,Shawn

Response:

Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn

Here’s a couple of items could save you some grief. Don’t use 5 minute epoxy to put on the reel seat or the handle. It can take longer than 5 minutes to get things properly situated. Use something with a longer pot life. Be real careful mixing up the wrap coating epoxy lest it set sticky. Use a minimum of 3 cc’s of each component when mixing. This will tend to minimize the error in measuring equal quantities. The stuff tends to be real sensitive to silicones which tend to be found in plastic measuring and mixing cups, stirring rods etc. There are these special syringes supplied by the coating maker for measuring the stuff which are guaranteed free of it. Don’t use any substitutes. Mix the stuff up in something made of glass like a shot glass and stir it with something like a stainless steel spoon handle. Denatured alcohol will work as a solvent to clean up afterward. good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

Be real careful mixing up the wrap coating epoxy lest it set sticky. Use a minimum of 3 cc’s of each component when mixing. This will tend to minimize the error in measuring equal quantities.

Good advice all around.  Equal parts is a good thing.  I’ve been able to use steel kitchen measuring spoons to mix up 1 teaspoon at a time w/o problems. Mu

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn Here’s a couple of items could save you some grief. Don’t use 5 minute epoxy to put on the reel seat or the handle. It can take longer than 5 minutes to get things properly situated. Use something with a longer pot life. Be real careful mixing up the wrap coating epoxy lest it set sticky. Use a minimum of 3 cc’s of each component when mixing. This will tend to minimize the error in measuring equal quantities. The stuff tends to be real sensitive to silicones which tend to be found in plastic measuring and mixing cups, stirring rods etc. There are these special syringes supplied by the coating maker for measuring the stuff which are guaranteed free of it. Don’t use any substitutes. Mix the stuff up in something made of glass like a shot glass and stir it with something like a stainless steel spoon handle. Denatured alcohol will work as a solvent to clean up afterward.

A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

… Denatured alcohol will work as a solvent to clean up afterward. A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson

There is some opinion out there that acetone attacks rod finishes. Denatured alcohol has worked quite well for me for cleaning up epoxy that’s still in the fluid state, and it’s arguably less toxic for skin contact and vapor too. But acetone may be the right answer if the stuff has started to set up and you need to get it off. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

I’d rather throw a few spoons and shot glasses away than mess around with acetone in the  house.   Very flamable. Great stuff if your an arsonist because it leaves almost no residue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

I’d rather throw a few spoons and shot glasses away than mess around with acetone in the  house.   Very flamable. Great stuff if your an arsonist because it leaves almost no residue. A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone.

Or just go to a charity store and buy a "china" (i.e., not plastic) dinner plate and a few dinner/butter knives.  The plate "palette" will lhave room for several batches. TC, R

Response:

Actually not.It leaves a distinct burn pattern that is readily aparent to an accomplished fire investigator. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d rather throw a few spoons and shot glasses away than mess around with acetone in the  house.   Very flamable. Great stuff if your an arsonist because it leaves almost no residue. A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

Question:

SSSHHHHHHH  Why tel anyone SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH. Nobody knows but us…

DSR is a big place on a bigger river.   I think our secret is safe. Apparently only about a hundred thousand guys know it, judging by last weekend’s crowd outside DSR. And don’t get me started on the cultural differences between the few fly fishers there and the lead-chucking majority. Joe F.

Response:

(photos to follow, including one in my roff shirt)

Okey dokey, if you’re interested, the photos are up at alt.binaries.pictures.fishing.   The subject headings are just variations of my screen name: rb608-1, rb608-2, and rb608-3.   The roff shirt is in -1, but it’s unfortunately less than obvious.   -3 is a big salmon with the rod, and -2 is the standard guy-with-a-fish photo. Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups

Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P

The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go

per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

John, Your proposal is making excellent sense. Dan Amerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups Not really. All three groups could be proposed in the same RFD. 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P The primary reason that I suggested using .misc is that a strong precedent has been set using this convention and it would likely be backed by Tale (David Lawrence) and other new.group gurus. 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go per my suggestion, anything that was ambiguous would go into r.b.p.misc. r.b.p. would only exist as a hierarchy, but not as a group.   This has been done many times before. IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue. I agree, but if a change is going to be made, following conventional usenet naming conventions would be very advantagous as far as getting support form outside the paddling newsgroups. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It’s less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It’s less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn’t be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T’s, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

Response:

If we’re going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup.

John, thank you for all the assistance you have been, and will continue to be in these discussions. Your long experience with these matters shows through, as does your wisdom. They are appreciated, even if we don’t necessarily agree. — Wes — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email — always at Talkway.

Response:

Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles?

Seconds. "Hooked on Phonics" changed my life. Try it.

Response:

I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, <snip                    …[I}  would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's. ...

In my experience, the interesting people continue to post to both groups (with some few exceptions.) It is easy enough to filter *for* these interesting people in your less-read group and just get headers for a quick scan of everything else. Mark me down for a rational split;   r.b.paddle.whitewater and optionally:  r.b.paddle.flatwater  r.b.paddle.misc (with r.b.paddle becoming a hierarchy-only) --   --Pete http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - John, Creating rec.boats.paddling.whitewater and leaving "everyone else" in R.B.P is probably a more viable solution. 1) It's less work than creating 3 new groups 2) It's less exclusive: ww postys would go to R.B.P.W and EVERYTHING else would go to R.B.P 3) The volumes would be "balanced" between the groups 4) There wouldn't be any arguments about where Sea Kayaks, S-O-T's, etc would go IMHO, The creation of a WW-only group is the "best" solution to this issue.

There is only one problem with this approach:  it won't work.  Since most of the whitewater folks don't mind the group as it is, they aren't going to put up the effort to "move" to a new group.  This is compounded by the folks who post only once every few months; they will continue to post to RBP for some time to come.  After this happens, WW people will crosspost to both groups (RBP and RBPW) to make sure that their messages get out to the intended audience. IMO, the only way that you will get some solitude is to create a new group. That way, you will leave the crowd behind (at least for a while). -- Steve Culy Visual Numerics, Inc.

Response:

I have to disagree with the proposal to split this group, although I haven't kayaked in years, I do marathon canoe racing, flatwater to III trips and would love to do more sea kayaking.  I enjoy this group as it is, with the hot shot rodeo'ers and the skin boaters and would miss many of 'characters' crochets by having to go back and forth between NG's.  That is if can get the new NG.  I have never felt intimidated about posting marathon stuff here and have gotten some interesting and unexpected replies.  Even the blather about religion makes me think of compfire discussions and Jack Daniels.  I fear that some of the pressure to split is "sour grapes."                 Don, an RBP 'bobber'

Response:

I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping

Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he's done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD,

Yes. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping Would the word  "flatwater" exclude canoe trips involving rapids?  I hope not. Would the word "touring" or "tripping" exclude flatwater paddlers who aren't into trips? Again, I hope not. Where do tripping rafters fit in? I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. regards, Njall regards, Njall

Response:

The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds.

And how many threads were there for you to scan through? Maybe it isn't a problem for you, but we keep having paddlers say that they are leaving this newsgroup because of the volume of posts that don't interest them.  There's a problem somewhere or this wouldn't happen. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there are small special interest segments, the appropriate thing is to run a mailing list to meet those people needs.

I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru.

So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

Response:

I've been part of a few mailing lists.  I find them less convenient & less spontaneous than newsgroups.  Also, they aren't easily found by potential new members.  If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Why? Because a mailing list, by nature, is intended to service a very small, very well defined topic group. A small mailing list would not create the cross-posting problems that 2 roughly equal in size and ILL-DEFINED newsgroups would. If you split the group roughly equally, all you are doing is saving, what, 10 of those 20 seconds that it took to scan thread titles? Again, this is just my opinion, but I don't think its worth it, in fact Ii fear it might actually be counter-productive when the inevitable cross postings start to occur leaving even more total thread titles to scan thru. So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group.

Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp. One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though? Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable.

One of the best ways to go about coming up with a name for a new newsgroup proposal is to look at the precedents that have already been set. One of conventions you'll find that is commonly used is the creation of a "misc" group.  For example, for basketball discussions there are: rec.sport.basketball.misc rec.sport.basketball.pro rec.sport.basketball.college The "pro" group is for discussion of professional teams, "college" for college teams and players, and "misc" for everything else. The rec.skating hierarchy is set up similarly. It has: rec.sport.skating.misc rec.sport.skating.roller rec.sport.skating.racing rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational rec.sport.skating.ice.figure rec.sport.skating.figure The skating groups are actually similar in structure to how paddling groups could be.  Both involve different types of equipment (ice, roller, inline) as well as different styles (racing, figure, recreational) and could use a catch all group (misc) for things that don't fit into a more strictly defined box. The rec.boats.canoeing proposal follows a structure more like the rec.outdoors.fishing fiasco.   At one time there wasn't a newsgroup devoted to fishing and alt.fishing was created.  A year or so later someone had the bright idea to create a fishing group in the the rec hierarchy and chose rec.outdoors.fishing as it's title. For many years the only group in the rec.outdoors hierarchy were the fishing groups and there was no corresponding rec.indoors group.  Groups like rec.climbing, rec.kites, rec.scuba, rec.skydiving; all recreational activites that take place in outdoors never made it into the rec.outdoors hierarchy. A few years ago I wrote and initiated an RFD for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying.  Even though the act of tying flies doesn't typically take place in the outdoors I was more or less forced to put it under rec.outdoors.fishing.fly because that's where all of the flyfishing discussion took place. If we're going to split rec.boats.paddling (and rec.boats.canoing *is* a split despite the ambigous naming) the topic with the biggest chuck of traffic should be split off (whitewater) and a misc group created for everything else. For example, my proposal would be: rec.boats.paddling.whitewater rec.boats.paddling.flatwater rec.boats.paddling.misc even though I would still prefer that everything remains as it is, in one newsgroup. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

So you go from 20 to 30 or 40 seconds?  It will only affect those who want to read both groups, such as myself.  It will be much better for people with interest in only one group. Lloyd, thanks for acknowledging that due to cross-postings reading 2 newsgroups could take longer than reading the current rbp.

If your newsreader is compliant to standard this is not true.  When an article is crossposted to more then one newsgroup it should only appear in the first one that you read if your newsreader is written correctly.  If you're seeing an article that has been crossposted in both groups twice there's something wrong with your newsreader. I don't think correctly crossposted articles is the problem though.  The problem is articles which are posted to the two different groups separately. The most frequent postings of these types are article which are off-topic for *both* groups (i.e. make money fast postings, commercial solicitations). If I am reading two separate groups instead of one it means I have to delete inappropriately posted articles twice. One of the other problems with crossposting is thread drift.  It often doesn't take more then a couple of responses from a thread that might have been appropriate in two separate groups to drift to a topic that is only appropriate in one.   One thing you didn't respond to though was my question, "Where would surf boating go?". It's an example of how ill-defined the proposed group is. Also, as a sea kayaker, i guarantee you that new people will think rec.boats.canoe is  NOT their newsgroup. Also, i notice that no one metions using kill files to screen title threads. Perhaps the real problem is that people need better newsreader software. If one filtered for about 5 river names, 5 boat brands and about 6 people's names I think about 85% of the whitewater posts could be screened out. regards, Njall

John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email - Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me.

Compared to mine. Mine misses about 75% of RBP posts. It is HELL to follow a discussion like that. You can complain about AOL -- hey, it's got to be better than that! But, the nearest place I can get to AOL is still a long-distance call for me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

Response:

If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup? Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.

Did that whole discussion, sounds totally facetious to me. Does all rbp equal one gif? Also it was being used as an excuse to silence people. It was a lame and ugly thread.  Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently! The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?" gregg

Response:

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes

I have a good isp? Woah! That's the first time anyone has said that to me. regards, Njall

Response:

Also, we keep getting posts that say "I left because of too many posts" which is sort like saying "nobody here but us chickens!" It seems like the people that have "left" are the ones reading the most intently!

Um, Gregg, if they are reading all the posts then they must enjoy reading all the posts so volume isn't a problem. Volume is a problem when people are reading relatively FEW posts compared to the total. Think about it. The people that *have* left (like Heimer) are the ones tired of the whining and complaining.

Trust me, there will be plenty of whining and complaining in any new/split groups as well. So, that's irrelevant. There is something very very suspicious going on with the "I left" posts, and it certainly seems to have raised doubts in the minds of the many people who respond "How long does it really take to read the subjects?"

Huh? you lost me with this last part, what's the "suspicious" stuff that is "going on'? Gregg, I am just curious, how long does it take you to scan the thread titles? regards, Njall

Response:

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks?

How long would it take you to scan two newsgroups? 27 seconds maybe? The point behind all of this is to provide a forum for non-ww boaters to discuss non-ww topics. In an ideal world we would have a newsgroup dedicated to WW only, in which case all *other* forms of paddling would remain in R.B.P. This would prbably result in a good balance of posts between the groups. I have seen many posts roll of my server due to excessive volume on R.B.P - which is 2x rec.backcountry and 4-5x rec.boats.building on any given day. Nobody, as far as I'm concerned is advocating the fractionalization of RBP - just a logical division.

Response:

Good points. Also, where would surf boats fit in? The point is, is it REALLY taking people THAT long to scan thread titles? Let me time myself doing it right now....  OK, being honest now, it took me 20 seconds. Is that too big a burden to warrant splitting the groups off into discrete major chunks? If there

You're lucky. You have a decent ISP. I have to use Talkways, because I have a lousy one, but it's the only one available through local dialup. It takes me an hour or more to go through RBP, post by post, because trying to do it by message headers is even slower. Since this is winter and I hate TV and the water is too hard for paddling, it doesn't matter, but as soon as things warm up a bit, I often won't have the time to dink around going through post after post, looking for the perhaps five percent that interest me. -- Wes -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.

Response:

If a mailing list is okay with you, why not a new newsgroup?

Because a newsgroup is about 100 times as resource intensive as a mailing list.  Each location it sends it to is less than a piece of e-mail, however there are 100,000 locations. Traditionally, the tradeoff was guestimated at around 100 members, however the internet (and usenet) has grown signifigantly since anyone looked at it, it's probably closer to 1000 now. Jay -- * Jay Denebeim  Moderator       rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated   *

Response:

what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely.

This name may be seen as excluding canoe trip reports or route descriptions that have whitewater as a minor element. Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html

Response:

I agree that rec.boats.paddle.whitewater is a good name for paddlers who play in whitewater.  Is this likely though?

Lloyd, what do you think about REC.BOATS.PADDLE.NON-WHITEWATER While I like the idea of the ww folks moving to a group called rec.boats.paddle.whitewater better, I agree that this is highly unlikely. Seems to me that the NON-WW name would accomplish what we need, it would be self descriptive, clear and understandable. Chuck

Response:

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)                  unmoderated group rec.boats.canoeing This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.boats.canoeing.  This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: rec.boats.canoeing      Discussions related to flatwater canoeing. RATIONALE: rec.boats.canoeing Discussion of flatwater canoeing, canoes, and canoe tripping constitutes a minority of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  A brief, and admittedly unscientific sampling of the traffic on rec.boats.paddle yielded the following results: 8% of posts were applicable to flatwater canoeing, 8% *might* be of interest to a flatwater canoeist, and 84% of posts dealt with white-water kayaking. Precise percentages are not important, rather, these numbers are presented as a snapshot of a typical day of posts. At a conservative rate of 200 posts per day, a strictly flatwater canoeist would need to sort out 164 posts that he/she considers irrelavent. A rec.boats.canoeing newsgroup would provide an alternative group that strictly flatwater canoeists could subscribe to without the nuisance of sorting inapplicable headers. There have been lengthy discussions in the past on rec.boats.paddle about splitting the newsgroup.  They have frequently ended with no RFD being written.  This proposed group is not intended to split the newsgroup.  Rather, it simply provides a place for flatwater canoeing discussion.  Paddlers who enjoy both flatwater and whitewater paddling will benefit from the ability to direct specific comments and questions toward a more focused group. CHARTER: rec.boats.canoeing Appropriate topics for rec.boats.canoeing include questions and comments about canoes, canoe accesories, canoeing technique, flatwater canoeing locations/routes, canoe camping, canoe tripping, and other flatwater canoeing related topics.  Discussion about whitewater canoeing is not prohibited, but posters should be aware that their comments and questions would generate higher quality responses in the rec.boats.paddle newsgroup.  For Sale and Wanted to Buy posts should be preceded by a [FS] or [WTB] flag in the subject header.  Retailers of both used and new boats/gear should provide links to their webpages or e-mail addresses rather than post lists of available boats/gear. Retailers should also limit such posts to a total of 1 per month or less. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.  Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:   news.announce.newgroups news.groups   rec.boats.paddle rec.backcountry rec.boats.building rec.boats.racing   (mailing list, see canoecountry.com for info)

Response:

Note followup-to is news.groups!!! Summary:  This RFD would create a confusing namespace and would not solve the problem leading to the RFD.  While I understand and sympathize with the wishes of the flatwater minority on RBP, this RFD will only confuse the issue.         rec.boats.canoeing has been proposed as a place for the non-whitewater interests of rec.boats.paddle to use, as a solution for the problems with whitewater traffic drowning out non-whitewater traffic on rec.boats.paddle.  But the name is not descriptive, for the following reasons: 1) Some non-negligible percentage of the whitewater posters on rec.boats.paddle paddle canoes, not kayaks. 2) rec.boats.canoeing does not accurately cover the sea kayaking, kayak touring and kayak tripping interests that should also be covered by this split/newgroup. 3) In American English, a "canoe" is a boat paddled with a one-bladed paddle.  In British English, the word "canoe" covers both one-bladed and two-bladed craft; in short, what Yanks call a Kayak, Brits call a Canoe.         For these reasons, the hierarchy that would result from this proposal passing would result in two groups whose names do not describe the traffic they are supposed to be carrying.  The result of this vote passing would be "rec.boats.paddle" for whitewater interests and "rec.boats.canoeing" for flatwater/touring interests.  Can anyone honestly say that they figured that out from the names?         I cannot vote for this proposal as written, and I encourage all concerned parties to honestly ask themselves if they can.  There is a serious danger here that there are many frustrated flatwater boaters willing to vote for anything that will get them out of rec.boats.paddle’s traffic.  But a poor solution is worse than no solution in the long run, and this solution will only result in confusion.         I encourage all interested parties to brainstorm for a renaming that would CORRECTLY describe the split.  An example might be rec.boats.paddle.whitewater rec.boats.paddle.flatwater or flatwater+touring or flatwater+tripping         Please, people, we’ll have to live with this vote for a long time.  Don’t screw up everybody because it’s easier to vote for the first solution offered rather than wait for the right solution.         Finally, let me say that I intend no criticism of Bob Solak. I think he’s done a great thing by stepping up and actually doing the right thing, an RFD, as opposed to countless others who think that groups are formed by a quorum of whining.  I just disagree with the name chosen for the new group.  1.01 GCS/GO d++ p+ c++ l++ u++ e+ -m+ s++/- n- h !(f)? g+ -w+ t+ r– y?  "I want to permeate the air you breathe/slide my way under your skin/place myself behind your eyes/and watch you, watch me, looking in." Katell Keineg

Response:

Question:

writes: I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started.

Yeah Jeff, I started tying long ago and my flies were never truely correct. Tails too long, too much hackle, ect…. Then I finally picked up a video called "Tying Western Trout Flies" by Jack Dennis and then I started punching ‘em out! His address is Box 4158, Jackson Hole, Wy. 83001. Ph: 307-733-3253. There are many other good video’s available as well. You need to decide which flies you will use the most and go from there. Also, many fly shops offer classes at night. That’s a good way to meet people who can really help you. Best of luck. Cliff

Response:

writes: I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started. Any tips?                                                 thanks                                                   Jeff

Jeff,  not to be product specific, but there are lots of _kits_ from lots of vendors.  Bass Pro Shops has several all in a different price ranges.  Orvis has two (perhaps more) one just below $100 and one about $120.  These _kits_ are very good ways to start.  As you get better you can replace items for better ones.  The most important item is your vise.   Buy the best one you can afford.  I bought a cheap one and I now regret it.  When I can afford it I want to get a better one. Tight Lines and happy tying,

Response:

I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started. Any tips?                                                 thanks                                                   Jeff

Jeff, 1.  A previous follow-up recommended taking a class — this is certainly the best course.  I’ve taken three or four classes and learned new techniques from each.  A local fly shop or a Trout Unlimited chapter can put you onto a class. There is a Trout Unlimited Home Page which can direct you to a local chapter.   Also you could post a message in one or more of the fly fishing / tying newsgroups or at flyfishing.com.  2.  If a class is not available in your area, then search out an experienced tyer to help you.  He / she can save you lots of frustration and help you with acquiring suitable tools and materials. 3.  Your third alternative (in order of preference) is the purchase of some top notch instructional materials.  There are some excellent books and videos available.  You will probably want to get some books on tying techniques and fly patterns in any case.  A some of the better known authors include: Skip Morris, Dick Talleur, Eric Leiser, Jack Dennis and Randall Kaufman (not to slight any of the other fine writers).  The first three offer books for the beginner. 4.  Beware of kits.  Although some are very good (you might inquire about those) most lack high quality tools and materials.  Quality tools and materials will go a long way towards eliminating frustration and insuring acceptable results. 5.  A final word.  Although the first flies which you tie probably will not approach fly shop quality — fish them anyway!  Even ratty flies catch fish – I should know.  Fish are much less concerned with aesthetics than fishermen. And besides, your flies will improve with practice. Tight Lines, Derek Brown

Response:

Jeff,  not to be product specific, but there are lots of _kits_ from lots of vendors.  Bass Pro Shops has several all in a different price ranges.  Orvis has two (perhaps more) one just below $100 and one about $120.  These _kits_ are very good ways to start.  

I have to jump in here.  Over on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying, this is a frequent discussion topic.  In all cases, kits are thoroughly discouraged.  The common wisdom there suggests buying a core set of good quality tools and the materials to tie two or three flies that you already use from your local fly shop.  Then expand your tools and materials as you go. I have to agree with the advice in another post to contact your local fly fishing club.  There are folks there who just LOVE to teach!  You can learn anything you want by just asking at the club meeting. Tight threads, Charley

Response:

Jeff,  not to be product specific, but there are lots of _kits_ from lots of vendors.  Bass Pro Shops has several all in a different price ranges.  Orvis has two (perhaps more) one just below $100 and one about $120.  These _kits_ are very good ways to start.

I disagree         If I had it to do over again, I would have purchased a good set of tools and gone to a fly shop to get material.  The first flytying kit I got was from  Bass Pro Shop (please everyone forgive me) and the quality of the material  was pathetic.  I could have done much better had I had access to people telling me to just get a set of tool sand feathers else where! Walter D. Whitman

Response:

I would like to point out that a friend of mine has a great video out on fly tying instruction for kids…it’s very funny and informative…and it comes with a kit that might serve a kid starting out as a fly tier…you can call this guy about the video…406-549-4308.

Response:

(BassMan918) writes: I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started. Any tips?

Check out rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying — beginner questions are welcome, and a great deal of useful information turns up every week.  – Roger

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writes: I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started. Any tips?

My first fly tying lesson was given to me by alf walker who had me tie a series of wets/nymphs  which were nothing more than a size ten hook tailled with brown hackle, and dubbed with a piece picked from the store carpet, with a hackle collar.  I may still have the original fly which was beautifuly proportioned as he tied it.  My only expenditures were thread, a small indian cape, and a few hooks.  You can tie most patterns down to size 16 whith relative ease, whithout cement, bobins, and vises.  Hackle pliers and scisors are useful for this kind of tying as are half hitches.  This is great fun, and you should have no difficulty tying basic patterns.  I remember walker telling me that I would never find tying so much fun as I then did with all my materials contained for the first few months in a small cardboard box.   Possibly so. Thomas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                                                 thanks                                                   Jeff Jeff,  not to be product specific, but there are lots of _kits_ from lots of vendors.  Bass Pro Shops has several all in a different price ranges.  Orvis has two (perhaps more) one just below $100 and one about $120.  These _kits_ are very good ways to start.  As you get better you can replace items for better ones.  The most important item is your vise.   Buy the best one you can afford.  I bought a cheap one and I now regret it.  When I can afford it I want to get a better one. Tight Lines and happy tying,

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I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started. Any tips?                                                  thanks                                                    Jeff

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For me, taking a class was the way to go.  Simple "tricks" like starting the thread, spinning deer hair, and tying off would have been much tougher for me to pick up out of a book.  If there are any fly fishing shops under "fishing, retail" in the yellow pages, there is a good chance that they give lesseons, or they can direct you to the local fly fishing clubs, many of which will either have a class, or have experienced tyers who would be delighted to teach you.  Maybe other members can direct you to the better videos if neither of the above routes work out. Bill Mack

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For me fly tying is such an integral part of flyfishing, that I would hate to have to buy all of my flies.  It is a great way to keep your fishing nerves under control during those long closed seasons.  Thus it is great that you want to get into it.   Like flyfishing itself you can save yourself a good bit of trouble by having some hands-on training.  A night of classes at a fly shop or even through university extension programs (for example the University of Washington actually has classes in tying and fishing through the experimental college) would be a smart move.  If there are any local fishing clubs or shops around ask if they know anyone who might give you a short tutorial.  Also, definitely buy a vice.  It is possible to tie flies without one, but you will be much more frustated.  A reasonable vice can be purchased for around $30.  It won’t be fancy and you may find it hard for flies smaller than size 18, but it will get you rolling.  Most of the kits mentioned in one of the posts below have vices of this caliber.  Don’t be shy about asking someone to teach you, most of the fly tying books look like bad directions for assembling lint balls.  It is worth the effort, you’ll be hooked as soon as you catch your first fish on your own fly. cheers, Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: I want to start tying flies but Im not sure how to get started. Any tips? My first fly tying lesson was given to me by alf walker who had me tie a series of wets/nymphs  which were nothing more than a size ten hook tailled with brown hackle, and dubbed with a piece picked from the store carpet, with a hackle collar.  I may still have the original fly which was beautifuly proportioned as he tied it.  My only expenditures were thread, a small indian cape, and a few hooks.  You can tie most patterns down to size 16 whith relative ease, whithout cement, bobins, and vises.  Hackle pliers and scisors are useful for this kind of tying as are half hitches.  This is great fun, and you should have no difficulty tying basic patterns.  I remember walker telling me that I would never find tying so much fun as I then did with all my materials contained for the first few months in a small cardboard box.   Possibly so. Thomas                                                 thanks                                                   Jeff Jeff,  not to be product specific, but there are lots of _kits_ from lots of vendors.  Bass Pro Shops has several all in a different price ranges.  Orvis has two (perhaps more) one just below $100 and one about $120.  These _kits_ are very good ways to start.  As you get better you can replace items for better ones.  The most important item is your vise.   Buy the best one you can afford.  I bought a cheap one and I now regret it.  When I can afford it I want to get a better one. Tight Lines and happy tying,

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Question:

Hi, a friend of mine be in Bozeman, Montana next August and he’d like to buy a Fenwick fly rod. Can anyone let me know the nearest delear??? Thanks in advance for your help. Good Fishing, Paolo

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You can buy direct from fenwick..1800642 7637 or fax 714 891 9610. call em they’ll send you a catalog

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Hi, a friend of mine be in Bozeman, Montana next August and he’d like to buy a Fenwick fly rod. Can anyone let me know the nearest delear??? Thanks in advance for your help. Good Fishing, Paolo

You might try Fenwick directly and perhaps they can direct you to likely sources.  Unfortunately, they’re not on-line on the Web yet. Fenwick 5242 Argosy Ave. Huntington Beach, CA  92649 Phone:  714-897-1066 Fax:  714-891-9610 Also, check my page at http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish and go to "Fly Fishing Dealers".  Several Montana dealers are listed and I am sure they could help also. Best Regards. Trent Roberson Rx F Fish – - – For Your Good Health, Fly Fish http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

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used to fish that in the olden days, back in ‘56 and ‘57.  Good to great fishing then, and nice little brookie fishing in upper stretches.  Most memorable occasion:  in a bar in Frederick a drunk came up to me and informed me in a horrified voice that my hat was full of bugs!  Often think of that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any opinion’s on Big Hunting Creek in Maryland? I was there today and it was horrible. All of the "locals" didn’t fair much better, no one had more than one. I heard this was supposed to be great. Did I pick a bad day or what? |                                        | |  …and go fast too."                  |     Lehigh University |                    -Edgar Grospiron    |

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  I live about 20 minutes from Big Hunting creek. Have fished it for 35+ years and frankly don’t fish it much anymore.  The folks who want to throw hatchery slugs in there, instead of allowing a decent population of wild brown and brook trout to have the place upset me.  The dam folks do keep a steady if at times extremely sparse flow of water on it.  It seems they are more interested in the lake above then the creek below.  I learned to fly fish there when I was a kid and Fish the pocket water: I like little brown trout clouser  style streamer , to catch very pretty native browns, avoid pools full of rainbow slugs !!!                               Regards   leo

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No Rob, it’s not only you.  I was at Hunting Creek a week ago.  Conditions were favorable (sunny/partly cloudy; 60+degrees) with some BWO coming off.  The fish, although present, showed no interest.  Not a nibble all day. This is about par for many of my trips to Hunting Creek.  The best I’ve done up there is three Rainbow over 12" on a day last summer. Incidentally, Western Maryland is worth the trip! Jack Van Horn

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Hey fellas-  Can I jump in with my 2 cents worth? I enjoy BHC but do agree it could be better. I also learned to float a fly there ’bout 5 years ago. Maybe that’s why I’m fond of the place… I was there Sun Apr 8. There was decent blue quill hatch coming off (#14-16) and the fish were rising til 3 or 4 pm. I caught 6 browns and must have hooked and lost that many more.  My best day was during the fall of 93 when I caught 26 fish one day, all on an inchworm I came up with. Maybe THAT’S why I’m fond of the place… <g.  For a more pure fishing experience try fishing above the lake. Hardly no pressure, ALL wild browns and brooks and a workout climbing the rocks. A McMurry ant always works good for me.  I would be in favor of some put and grow stocking but agree that the rubber rainbows degrade the experience. Even tho’ I did catch a 26" once there. (I had to throw that in, forgive me.)  Thanks for letting me sound off on a stream I love to fish. Jack, do I know you from NCCTU?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful. Sorry to disagree but there are lots of folks (none tyros) who would classify Putah Creek a trophy fishery. Its a tailwater stream that holds many fish, many large, few  pushovers. I don’t know if that qualifies as a "trophy" fishery but it ain’t a muddy, put-and-take slough.

Last I heard, Putah was officially classified as a "Trophy Trout Stream" by the state of California.  This qualifies it for special environmental protection, and special fishing regs.  They stock "put and take" rainbows down in the Solano Lake end, and there is a resident population of browns and land locked steelhead living from the head of lake Solano to the dam at lake Berryessa.  I’ve never gotten one of the giants, but I’ve seen several trout over 25" there in the water.         Putah is an interesting creek.  From Berryessa to Solano it is a great peice of water.  Cold water, good oxygenation, nice holes large bouldered bottom providing plenty of pocket water.  Lake Solano is a big evaporation pond.  There is a dam at the lower end of the lake, and during the summer, in dry years, there is no flow from it.  I’ve found the stream below Solano bone dry in some summers.  In a wet year, the creek flows on and eventually spreads out and sinks into the ground in the middle of the Sacramento cosway.  When you drive from Davis to Sac across the cosway, look to your right across the rice fields.  There is a peculiar patch of trees and scrub.  That is the termination point of Putah creek!         It’s been a while since I lived in Cali, but Putah was my training ground.  Don’t badmouth it just because your not competent enough to catch any of the multitude of giant (but extremely selective) trout that live there. Enjoy this gift of nature and preserve it for future generations. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

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writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful.

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writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful.

Sorry to disagree but there are lots of folks (none tyros) who would classify Putah Creek a trophy fishery. Its a tailwater stream that holds many fish, many large, few  pushovers. I don’t know if that qualifies as a "trophy" fishery but it ain’t a muddy, put-and-take slough.

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I hear Putah creek is a trophy trout stream.  I fished it about 1 month ago with some success on 18-20 prince nymphs.  I saw no fish over 8". Steam side brush made casting near impossible.  There were few pockets from which to cast from.  Wading was difficult due to the changing deapth of water and varying stream flows throughout the length of the creek starting just outside of Winters.  Does anyone know how and where to fish this water?

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