Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Michael, perhaps I can give some info that you may find interesting.  In 1962 the Western Green Drake was changed from Ephemerella grandis to Drunella grandis.  In England, Green Drakes are Ephemera danica, in the eastern US they are Ephemera guttulata and in the western US Drunella grandis. Description: BIOLOGOY OF MAYFLIES, 1935 "Abdominal segments dark purplish brown with wide pale margins, so as to appear conspicuously ringed." Revised in 1962 by Allen and Edmunds "Terga largely purplish brown with pale pleural and posterior margins, giving a distinct ringed appearance to the abdomen." A description of the Western Green Drake from SPINNERS by Nemes: ‘There is little green in the whole insect, although the base of the wings has a yellowy green cast to it, which is very prominent on the dun. The spinner appears green perhaps because of the pale yellow stripes between the dark, purply brown segments.  Body length is 3/4".  Three tails almost twice as long.  Wings: hyaline, with a span of 1 and 1/2".’ A very generic hatch chart that will give you a general idea of various hatch times: http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?dir_id=&Group_ID=&subject=253&cktst=true HTH. —

Thanks Warren,  the two insects do sound very similar indeed:  very good fun to fish with here in the UK ~ have you ever fished a Green Drake hatch?  Are they common on most rivers or are they fairly limited in extent (UK is tiny compared to States, so I suppose that US environments vary wildly) .  I would imagine that the north east of the States is the most similar to the environment of the UK  (New England & New Hampshire might be a possible clue, but since I’ve never been there, I don’t really know ?) Regards, Mike.

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Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres?

Michael, perhaps I can give some info that you may find interesting.  In 1962 the Western Green Drake was changed from Ephemerella grandis to Drunella grandis.  In England, Green Drakes are Ephemera danica, in the eastern US they are Ephemera guttulata and in the western US Drunella grandis.   Description: BIOLOGOY OF MAYFLIES, 1935 "Abdominal segments dark purplish brown with wide pale margins, so as to appear conspicuously ringed." Revised in 1962 by Allen and Edmunds "Terga largely purplish brown with pale pleural and posterior margins, giving a distinct ringed appearance to the abdomen." A description of the Western Green Drake from SPINNERS by Nemes: ‘There is little green in the whole insect, although the base of the wings has a yellowy green cast to it, which is very prominent on the dun.   The spinner appears green perhaps because of the pale yellow stripes between the dark, purply brown segments.  Body length is 3/4".  Three tails almost twice as long.  Wings: hyaline, with a span of 1 and 1/2".’ A very generic hatch chart that will give you a general idea of various hatch times: http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?dir_id=&Group_ID=&subject=253&cktst=true HTH. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s.

If it’s not one damn thing, it’s something else. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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didn’t stick much in the valley.  The mountains are white again though. Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s.

Our snowpack is a whopping 293% and the rivers are running at normal levels (16,300 cfs) on the lower Clark Fork. Heading up to Rock Creek with the Fam on Thursday. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Make sure to have the appropriate size/color quigley cripple. It’s a great pattern during the Green Drake hatch on the Bitterroot, which should be starting in 2 or 3 weeks.

Will do.  I still have your fly from one of the swaps set aside as my example pattern. More snow down to about 4000 feet here. We’ve had at least a couple of inches of rain in the past 4 days or so. I hope other parched places in the west are getting this.

Same here.  Not sure how much rain we received total, but it rained most of the weekend and most of yesterday too.  We had snow at times, but it didn’t stick much in the valley.  The mountains are white again though.   Our snowpack percentage increased by 16% this weekend and they are already talking about more flooding because the temps this weekend are supposed to get up into the 90’s. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Make sure to have the appropriate size/color quigley cripple. It’s a great pattern during the Green Drake hatch on the Bitterroot, which should be starting in 2 or 3 weeks. More snow down to about 4000 feet here. We’ve had at least a couple of inches of rain in the past 4 days or so. I hope other parched places in the west are getting this. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never fished an actual Green Drake "hatch" (like the glorious ones you read about in various magazines or books), but have fished Green Drakes while they were out.  In my experience, they are fairly common in that they are represented in a large geographic area, but rare in that they are a short-lived hatch and prefer certain types of water. Personally I like the Grey and Brown Drakes better because they are more common, probably because they have a longer hatch period, but they seem to be more widespread too.  That may be because they have the longer "hatch" though…..  I am hoping to fish some Green Drakes this weekend. Never fished the famous hatch on this river, but supposedly it is everything that you are talking about and more.  Unfortunately it brings out the crowds too.

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Thanks Warren,  the two insects do sound very similar indeed:  very good fun to fish with here in the UK ~ have you ever fished a Green Drake hatch?  Are they common on most rivers or are they fairly limited in extent (UK is tiny compared to States, so I suppose that US environments vary wildly) .  I would imagine that the north east of the States is the most similar to the environment of the UK  (New England & New Hampshire might be a possible clue, but since I’ve never been there, I don’t really know ?)

I have never fished an actual Green Drake "hatch" (like the glorious ones you read about in various magazines or books), but have fished Green Drakes while they were out.  In my experience, they are fairly common in that they are represented in a large geographic area, but rare in that they are a short-lived hatch and prefer certain types of water.   Personally I like the Grey and Brown Drakes better because they are more common, probably because they have a longer hatch period, but they seem to be more widespread too.  That may be because they have the longer "hatch" though…..  I am hoping to fish some Green Drakes this weekend.   Never fished the famous hatch on this river, but supposedly it is everything that you are talking about and more.  Unfortunately it brings out the crowds too. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael. It is really for only 4 or 5 days on the Delaware I am told. Most hatch charts make it the last fortnight of May though. If you want the photos I would be glad to email them to you. Just let me know.

Thanks Gary,  yes indeed I would quite like to see the pikkies, so please email them to me.  From what you say it seems like the english Mayfly is similar to the american Green Drake. Regards, Michael.

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Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?

Michael, FWIW, I posted several pics a few days back on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Flies were green drakes from the Delaware River in NY State. You above desc is compares well to the US Eastern Green Drake. I am sure it would be not difficult to find the pattern online. Where I am now, I cannot help! Best regards, Gary

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night.

The Western Green Drake is Drunella grandis or Drunella doddsi. The duns are pretty much an olive color all over. They emerge in the middle of the day, and they darken in color after emergence. The cool thing about the Green Drakes, from a flyfisherman’s point of view, is that the duns spend a long time on the surface, and there are lots of cripples. The mating flights and the spinner falls occur very late and into the night. These are big mayflies, but not nearly as big as the Brown Drake. The Big Wood River in Idaho has a superb Green Drake hatch in June. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have. Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?

Many apologies for my making myself unclear yet again.  What I really mean is not the natural flies that you haven’t seen, but the artificials that your friend showed you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres? Michael, FWIW, I posted several pics a few days back on alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Flies were green drakes from the Delaware River in NY State. You above desc is compares well to the US Eastern Green Drake. I am sure it would be not difficult to find the pattern online. Where I am now, I cannot help!

Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael.

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Thanks for the info Gary,  I checked the pictures but my outlook express newsgroup reader told me that I couldn’t view the pictures because there were no longer there, or words to similar effect.  I assume that you took the photos?  Do the green drakes in the Delaware hatch in a fortnight around about the end of May? Regards, Michael.

It is really for only 4 or 5 days on the Delaware I am told. Most hatch charts make it the last fortnight of May though. If you want the photos I would be glad to email them to you. Just let me know. Best, Gary

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.

Willi,  I think I wasn’t making myself clear in the previous post of mine: what I meant was does the green drake flies that you saw have the features that I mentioned, i.e. pale body with brown segments near tail and a pale olive hackle & wing ~ and of course the 3 long tail fibres?  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night.

I have only fished into the night a few times when I was a kid.  The river in light is a wonderous place,  but for a 10 year old,  the darkness of night makes the water kind of creepy.   In ordinary days out fishing these days,  I have to be home by a reasonable hour  (wife & all that…) and so I’ll probably not get much opportunities for night / evening fishing ~ besides, 21 years later,  I still remember how creepy the river became in darkening light PS,  I had an excellent day’s fishing on my favourite stretch today.  The weather was excellent  (overcast, no wind and no rain but fairly warm) and there was a lot  of activity taking place.  The E. danica Mayfly spinners were dancing around laying their eggs.  I was amazed at how many there were, considering the carnage that was wrought upon the duns.  Anyhow,  I had a number of pheasant tail dryflies that I had already chosen to use for the day.  The fly is a simple creation of  3 PT fibres for the tail & body,  and a ginger cock hackle wound fairly bushy.  I have a streamlined variant with less hackle to be used in the really tricky spots where I have to cast under overhanging branches,  but that is not a durable floater for general fishing.  I caught about 20 fish at an average of about 3/4 lb each fish and quite a few indeed over the pound mark ~ 1 to be cooked on the smoker tomorrow.  This season has seen a beefing up of the fish stock and I’m sure that the fish are bigger  than that that I have become used to over the 6 years that I have fished this stream.  I saw an absolute clonker leap several feet out of the water, it looked good for 2 pounds.  However by the time that I reached this fish, the river went strange and my fly had become out of vogue ~ nothing went for my fly at all! Half an hour earlier I had just finished a period of about 3 hours whereby most fish that I covered rose to my fly.  I had been very pleased with the fly’s performance,  just as I had expected it to do since it is a good choice for this time of the year  (and it is easy to tie up too).  As I worked my way slowly towards the area where I saw the big fish rise,  I encountered some smaller fish bulging.  I wanted to turn these fish downstream of me without spooking the big trout, and so aimed to hook up as many of these fish as I could and bring them downstream and then release the tension in the line so that the hook falls out (no barbs) and releases the fish.  This is a good method of clearing a shallow section of water so that the angler may proceed slightly further upstream to a target fish. I started this plan,  but to no avail!  The fish totally stopped taking my fly,  and by the time I reached the area where the big one had been rising I did not have a single rise, despite a few fly changes, including a PT nymph. I have to admit defeat on this pool / glide, as I couldn’t entice a thing despite seeing many rises.  I like this pool as it a challenging but beautiful stretch of water some 50 yards long with many fish. Cheers for now, Michael.

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From the pictures I called up, the most similar in size and appearance to the Danica seems to be the Green Drake. Personally, I’ve never fished a Drake hatch, but there are other posters here that have and do. Wayne Knight, tries to make a yearly pilgramage to fish the Hex hatch in Michigan. He sent me some flies he uses for this hatch. They’re MUCH bigger than any Mayfly I’ve seen. The flies he sent are bigger than many flies I use for bass!

Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres? The flight of a newly hatched Mayfly E. danica dun is quite a sight indeed. The creatures fly relatively slowly with rapid whirring of the wings and with the tail more or less pointing towards the water.  It takes them a bit of time to get the momentum up and during this time they are quite prone to aerial assults by the trout! I thoroughly recommend your seeing a drake hatch as it is like a festival on the stream.  The trout really go crazy and severely reveal their presence with savage swirls / splashes / leaps and so on.  On the rivers that I fish that have the E. danica,  it seems like the hatching of this burrowing nymph is the trout’s primary seasonal harvest, and the trouts’ indulgence is such that caution is temporarily thrown to the wind. After the E. danica hatch is over the river quietens down progressively through the months June July & August.  In late August the stream can be very quiet indeed,  and only the nymph seems to be successful in enticing fish to participate in my days’ operations.  During September,  things liven up a little, but by the end of the month it becomes close season,  with the cold winter days soon to come. I have come to believe that the hatching out of the E. danica is more or less the trouts’ raison d’etre, as it effectively forms the peak of the trouts’ feeding activities. [Just like for me,  catching trout on a beautiful stream is my raison d'etre!!!!] Without the E. danica, the trout hold station and help themselves only to the morcels that pass by, with the odd excursion to snatch a sedge; little energy is expended on such table scraps.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout , and the yearlings / 2 year olds all return to their regular (non-danica) places.  The big trout then all disappear back to their lies in various alder roots at the heads of runs & pools and become somewhat more  difficult to catch until the next danica hatch that is…. In England,  the month of May is the dryfly month, as that is when the upwinged flies start to hatch out in earnest.  The last 2 weeks in May and the first week of June are really busy days with the dryfly and it is great fun just to be there: fishing and catching fish is merely the icing on the cake.  That being said,  I also like the "dogdays" of late summer too, as exploration work with the nymph is just as much fun as fishing the dryfly, and more demanding of the angler’s concentration and skills etc. Regards, Michael.

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Willi,  this sounds similar to the english E. danica indeed.  Does the Green Drake have a pale cream body with a couple of brown segments near the tail, alongside a slight olive colouring of the thorax / wing area and 3 long tail fibres?

Like I said, I’ve never seen one. There are people on ROFF who have.  When danica is hatching, the big trout all congregate in the slow pool tails and hunt down the hatching nymphs and emerging duns furiously.  After the danica has gone by, the pool tails become devoid of big trout

My guess is that you would find them there at sunset and into the night. Willi

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Snip. Thanks. Very well-written and a useful read.

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[a very informative snip] These types of feeding lies are not unique to this stretch of river. I’ve found similar unconventional feeding lies in many waters I’ve fished. They are not as readily apparent as "classic" lies but are definitely worth seeking out. Willi

Willi, just found this little gem of a post. It seems like you’re describing the upper Grand, just below Belwood dam – long stretches of medium-slow to slow water broken by riffles and chutes.  During hatches and off-colour water, these slow areas can be full of fish but in clear, low, no-hatch conditions they seem devoid of fish.  This river has a limestone bottom that is fairly flat in spots yet it has underwater ledges that change the depth by 6" or so, providing holding spots for fish.  I’ll work these waters from top to bottom, side-to-side with a streamer by wading downstream right down the middle and casting bank to bank. I’ve seen the "truck bed coverage" pattern of rising fish in slow water and though I have caught them on dries, though anticipating their next move can be frustrating (especially in a trico spinner fall) so I often fish them with a small streamer run very shallow and fast.  Even though they are keyed on a specific bug, they will usually smack a well presented streamer, since they are already in the feeding mood. Your post is a clear statement that anglers should spend as much time observing as they spend fishing. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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One question for you Willi:  do you have the English Mayfly (E. danica) over on your side?  Over here we have a fortnight (just finished) of total mayhem on the troutstream when these ephemeral leviathans hatch out.  

I did a web search and it seems that we don’t have that specific Mayfly although we do have a number of burrowing Mayflies across the country that are generically called Drakes. These Drake hatches bring up the big fish and also bring out anglers from all over to fish them.   From the pictures I called up, the most similar in size and appearance

to the Danica seems to be the Green Drake. Personally, I’ve never fished a Drake hatch, but there are other posters here that have and do. Wayne Knight, tries to make a yearly pilgramage to fish the Hex hatch in Michigan. He sent me some flies he uses for this hatch. They’re MUCH bigger than any Mayfly I’ve seen. The flies he sent are bigger than many flies I use for bass! The Mayflies on my home river are mainly small, 18 to 22. The exception is a large bright yellow Mayfly that hatches at dusk and into the night in July and August. I caught the largest trout I’ve taken on a dry during this hatch. The problem is that the hatch is strong enough to really interest the fish only once every five years or so. While at the Penn’s Clave, I got to see and fish some March Brown Mayflies. I thought they were huge but I was told that they were small compared to the Green Drakes. Willi

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Good stuff snipped. Willi,  this is an excellent post and something that I have also experienced, albeit in a very much minor scale to yours.  My rivers are much smaller than yours, however the trout do tend to move around in a similar fashion although probably proportionally to the size of the rivers concerned.  I have often found trout in the most bizarre places in the stream that I ordinarily wouldn’t have bothered casting to.  It is only when I have seen the sizeable fish flee from my upstream wading that I have gathered their presence in these particular spots, or else I have been very much surprised by a very much swirlsome rise in a strange spot.   In later visits I would target these areas, and indeed some good trout have been taken by my rod  from these previously "fishless" spots. On my fave stream  (of which I posted a pikkie in ABPF some weeks ago) there is a cow drinking spot that is at the very tail end of a long slow glide / straight pool.  Immediately in front of the shallow draining section are often very big fish for the river 1.5lb plus) in the very shallow water (1 foot deep).   I initially found these fish out years ago by all of their massive bow waves as they all shot off when I went wading up to them in ignorance.  I paid attention to this observation and over the years have had a lot of fun trying to deceive these fish.  On average, these trout in this spot have bettered my tactics as it is quite difficult to present a fly to them in consideration of the prevailing circumstances. These are very tricky fish to cast to with my small 6 foot rod:  in order not to scare the fish by my presence, I have to cast at the fish whilst standing in fast water ~ if I am not careful,  the drag on my line closest to me will accelerate the fly and drag it too fast past the fish.  I have to be sure to collect line quickly and to hold the rod as high as possible to avoid excessive downstream drag on the fly.  My most favoured approach is to use a PT nymph and pitch it about 18 inches upstream of the trout with a snaky cast (i.e. twang the flyline taut about 1 foot above the surface of the water to induce curves in the flyline / leader.  The trick is to try to mend the flyline so as the fly doesn’t suddenly accelerate when the curves are all brought straight by the dragging current. A nice slow start by the nymph is much preferred over the sudden acceleration.  Recently I have tried to get back into dryfly fishing, and this spot is very tricky indeed with the floating fly, however a bushier fly gives more time for the fly to be drifted over the trout before the dreaded drag acceleration.  (that being said,  I have caught plenty of fish with a dragging fly (usually accidentally) !!. One question for you Willi:  do you have the English Mayfly (E. danica) over on your side?  Over here we have a fortnight (just finished) of total mayhem on the troutstream when these ephemeral leviathans hatch out.  The trout all go completely nuts for them,  and the biggies come out into the pool tails and are relatively prone to the fly angler for the first half of the fortnight at least.  The trout seem to be so transfixed with the Mayfly that they will not  see the error of the angler.   For the rest of the year the biggies seem to disappear and are difficult to engage.  During the Mayfly (in England the Mayfly is a specific species of ephemerid, and it is disproportionally bigger than most other upwinged aquatic fly) fortnight the regular structure of trout feeding locations is more or less inverted and we find the big fish out in the open slow water, chasing down mayfly duns anywhere they see them.  I have seen on many occasions trout leap clear of the water to intercept an E. danica as it fluttered a foot or so over the water’s surface. Regards, Michael.

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There is a section of my home river where a walking/biking/jogging path runs above the river on a bluff for about a half mile. This high vantage point provides an unusual and ideal opportunity to observe the comings and going of the trout. It took me a couple of years before I began to utilize this viewing area. At first, I used the path to walk from one spot to the next or else I just waded along the banks of the river. One day, I happened to stop along the path and while looking down into the river saw a good fish feeding, suspended in the water about a foot below the surface, in an area I had ignored in the past. I took the time to check out more of the area, and found numerous good fish feeding in areas that I had passed by before because they didn’t "fit the mold" of good spots. After this first encounter, I’ve made it a habit to make observations of this stretch of water from the overlooking path on a consistent basis. I’ve learned a number of things watching the trout in this area over the years but two things I’ve learned that have changed the way I fish are: trout will move considerable distances to feed and they will choose feeding stations that are "unconventional" based on what is described by most of the angling literature. I’ve been watching these trout for most of the fifteen years I’ve lived here and have found that different fish, for their own reasons, choose different feeding areas. From my observations, it seems that the same fish choose the same stations while actively feeding, at least during water levels where I can observe and/or fish. Trout feed in a variety of locations throughout a stream or river. Some trout move very little from their holding positions to feed even during strong hatches. There are other fish who leave their holding locations to move to active feeding stations. Many of them will do this at specific times of the day depending on the season and will then return to their deeper holding water. I’ve followed fish for several hundred yards as they return to the pool after being spooked off their feeding station. Hatches will also draw them to these areas even if these hatches are at different times than their "regular" schedule. I enjoy fishing for and finding these actively feeding fish for a number of reasons. The fish have moved into these positions for one reason only, to feed and because of this, they are very vulnerable to being caught. Another reason that these fish are worth pursuing is that many of these areas are ignored by the average angler and more often produce better fish. In heavily fished water, and especially in water with open regulations, the better fish have a tendency to feed in areas where they aren’t likely to be caught. An Overview of this Stretch of Observable Water The bottom end of this stretch is the largest and deepest pool in about four or five miles of river that is form by a small diversion dam. This massive pool holds alot of fish. The head of the pool is a broad area of moderate current. The water is slower moving and the bottom more regular than the heads of pools on most western waters. Upstream from the head there is a long flat that runs upstream for about a third of a mile. The current is very moderate to slow and the bottom is regular with very few features. It averages about three feet in depth during higher water conditions, about two feet during average conditions and as low as a foot during low water conditions. There are a few depressions in this stretch where the water is about twice the average depth. At the upstream end of this flat there is a run about two hundred feet in length made up of irregular, faster, slightly deeper water. Upstream of the run there is a short area of very shallow rapid/pocket water.   The Head of the Pool The head of the pool always holds some fish, but during nonfeeding times, the fish are all small. During periods of feeding activity, a good number of fish utilize the head of the pool. There is usually a pod of fish just off the near bank in the deepest water just upstream of the pool. These are moderate sized fish although I’ve seen one or two very big ones over the years. This is classic feeding water but it is also the heaviest fished part of this stretch of river. I think that there would be more, better fish using this feeding station but since it is heavily fished and the river has open regulations, I think the better fish that utilize it are regularly caught and kept. Just upstream, the water gains a bit of velocity as it becomes more shallow. There are scattered fish throughout this area using the slightly bigger rocks or slight depressions to deflect the current while they feed on the food being swept by. These trout, as a rule, are better than average sized fish. The largest number of fish that feed in the head of the pool, feed on the sloping bar of shallow water on the far side of the river. The bar starts at the far bank and gradually deepens to about three feet in depth until it drops off into the pool at the head. This bar seldom gets fished because it is where 90%+ of the anglers stand to fish the obvious deep run along the near bank. The fish on this bar will consistently feed in water from one to three feet deep but will move into water just inches deep if the hatch is heavy and the sun isn’t direct. This sloping bar holds all sizes of fish. I caught the biggest fish I’ve caught in the river on this bar. It was caught at sunset on a summer eve, on a large dry in very shallow water where I saw it pushing wakes of water as it fed.   The Long Flat The next upstream stretch is the longest area of this section, almost about a third of a mile in length. It is a very featureless stretch of slow to moderately moving water. Aside from a few scattered fish that have found small niches, there is very little holding water and during nonfeeding times, it is virtually devoid of fish. It is water that in the past, I had always considered to be waste water. However, each morning and evening during the "season" trout move up from the pool to feed in this area. Hatches during the day will also bring fish up from the downstream pool. Some fish set up typical feeding stations but because of the slow current speed in many areas, some of the trout will set up a territory and cruise, more like lake dwelling fish. These fish will typically set up a feeding pattern covering an area typically about the size of large truck’s bed. They’ll feed at their upstream limit, then drift back and to the side to feed again and then repeat this pattern until they reach their downstream limit.  Then the fish will swim back to its starting position and start the cycle over again. In this apparently, featureless area, most of the feeding stations or territories are difficult or impossible to find without directly observing the fish from the elevated bank because there are no obvious visual cues that suggest a good lie. Even when observing the fish in their stations/territories, it is usually impossible to discern what advantage their chosen area has over another seemingly identical area that never holds a fish. This long stretch of water will produce all sizes of fish. Again I’ve observed that the very few "obvious" spots, generally don’t hold the best fish. Again, I believe that this is because the better fish that use these obvious areas are caught and kept. The Top Run and Rapids Section The broken surface of the water in this area makes direct observation impossible except during very low water levels. Most of the observations I’ve made are based on fish rising, bulging or pushing water while feeding as well as by angling for them. There are a few deeper spots in this area as well as some undercuts that also serve as holding water. Even though this area is fished fairly heavily, it consistently produces better fish. However, once again the best fish tend to be in areas that are either neglected by other anglers ie. VERY shallow sections or are difficult to fish ie undercut willows. All the typical lies in this area hold fish. Each seam, back eddy, pocket, depression, etc. has the potential of a fish. Because of its broken and somewhat deeper water, this is the only area in this whole stretch of river that will hold better fish during "off" times. During feeding periods, more fish will move into this area from the downstream pool. I’ve had some exceptional days on this area, especially during hatches. However, most of the best fish I’ve taken from this area have been in the VERY shallow water in the edges of the rapids at the top of the run. Sometimes they’ll feed in water so shallow that I’ve spotted the fish by the bulges of water they pushed upward while they’re feeding. Shallow areas like these are ignored by virtually all anglers. The other spot in this area where I’ve consistently caught good fish is a small eddy behind a log protruding from the bank. This spot is difficult to fish and requires an unconventional approach to cover correctly. These types of feeding lies are not unique to this stretch of river. I’ve found similar unconventional feeding lies in many waters I’ve fished. They are not as readily apparent as "classic" lies but are definitely worth seeking out. Willi

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Question:

One thing that rather surprises me about such discussions, is that we already have a very large range of very effective patterns, which catch fish most satisfactorily, when used correctly.  It might be possible to improve on these, although in many cases I doubt it.

Ah, but there’e the rub, or rather, at least two of them.  If one is buyng flies, and the seller is both knowledgable, and willing to share that knowledge, the purchaser may indeed wind up with the "correct" patterns and colors for the water in question.  However, if one is tying, then things get a bit tricky.  If one simply looks at what they see on or in the water, (or worse, simply look at non-POV relevant pictures of the thing they wish to imitate or simulate) and then look up patterns/color variants to match it to their eye, it may or may not be a match. It could get even worse.  For example, if they want a bi-visible, now there are two colors to consider, and the possible conflict of the sighting color.   I absolutely agree that the likelihood of there not being a printed pattern/variant recipe somewhere that will fill the bill is small, perhaps non-existent.  But, IMO, simply matching what you see to what you think you need is iffy at best, without keeping "what the fish sees" in your mind.  For example, a light-colored, lightly-dressed wet will, when viewed against a light background, look much different when viewed against the backdrop of a rocky lie or from below against a darkening sky, just as a similarly light-colored dry will when viewed from below against a bright blue sky, etc. TC, R

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Letcher Lambuth, in 1936, did some studies with Pacific coast salt water bait fish.  Using gelatin filters to simulate the top 20 feet of the water column, he observed that candlefish and herring looked far different in the water than they did in the hand.  He then designed the Lambuth Herring and the Lambuth Candlefish using the colors that he saw via the filters.  Note that he did not have the advantage of studies of the mechanics of fish vision. We know, for examples, that after a certain depth red turns black, that green is the last color to remain identifiable, and that flash (tinsel, etc.,) requires light to be of any significance.  However, this is to our eyes not necessarily to the eyes of a fish. With due respect to Lambuth, a true pioneer, it seems to me that we are better served by dressing our flies, when we are tying something that is meant to be bait specific, with colors as exact to our eyes as possible. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that colors X, Y, Z; properly porportioned to match a bait would be identifiable to a fish as that bait at what ever depth and conditions the fish was used to viewing it? I’d appreciate your discussion. Crusty

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[snip] This underwater view is very much the subject of Lafontaine’s "The Dry Fly."  He and his partner conducted quite a few scuba dives to see how <SNIP Visit The Streamer Page at

http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html Skues book is indeed first class.  If you want a modern view I would suggest "The Trout And The Fly. A new approach"  By John Goddard and Brian Clarke. This book is, in my opinion, one of the finest works ever printed on the subject, and covers the subjects you mention very precisely and thoroughly, with excellent photography. My English copy was borrowed by somebody, and not returned. Most annoying. I still have a German copy though, so all is not lost. The ISBN number is 3-275-00803-X.  This number may be specific to the German version, I am not sure. However, a net search should turn up a copy for you. I have still not got LaFontaine

Question:

  . . . exactly. And its nice not having to pick the pellets out. An obvious fin/feather combo, without all the noise.

Exactly! <g — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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  . . . exactly. And its nice not having to pick the pellets out. An obvious fin/feather combo, without all the noise. Exactly! <g

And just like fish, you can use parts of one to catch another. Joe F.

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Ken, Kevin, Warren… Howdy!! I am @ site #80 in the Mammoth Hot Springs campground….

Richard, Don’t know which you’ll see first but I left a note at your campsite and another at Clave Central letting them know where you are. Clave Central is located at the Eagle Creek Campground. It’s about two miles from Gardiner on the road to Jardine. Coming from Mammoth the road to Jardine is the first right after you cross the Yellowstone. Sorry to have missed you, … Have a GREAT Clave ! — Ken Fortenberry

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got it ken…it is now fri evening…i will drop by clave central and look around…..then, its back down to the hot creek, for the evening hot bath…another great day of fishing today.. i took a lot of digital photos…will post later… richard / colorado

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken, Kevin, Warren… Howdy!! I am @ site #80 in the Mammoth Hot Springs campground…. Richard, Don’t know which you’ll see first but I left a note at your campsite and another at Clave Central letting them know where you are. Clave Central is located at the Eagle Creek Campground. It’s about two miles from Gardiner on the road to Jardine. Coming from Mammoth the road to Jardine is the first right after you cross the Yellowstone. Sorry to have missed you, … Have a GREAT Clave ! — Ken Fortenberry

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Dammit! Something’s wrong with my computer – it keeps flashing to some Internet Flyfishing Soap channel… /daytripper (as the world turns) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – got it ken…it is now fri evening…i will drop by clave central and look around…..then, its back down to the hot creek, for the evening hot bath…another great day of fishing today.. i took a lot of digital photos…will post later… richard / colorado Ken, Kevin, Warren… Howdy!! I am @ site #80 in the Mammoth Hot Springs campground…. Richard, Don’t know which you’ll see first but I left a note at your campsite and another at Clave Central letting them know where you are. Clave Central is located at the Eagle Creek Campground. It’s about two miles from Gardiner on the road to Jardine. Coming from Mammoth the road to Jardine is the first right after you cross the Yellowstone. Sorry to have missed you, … Have a GREAT Clave ! — Ken Fortenberry

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Just ask Warren about the duck…. giggle…. snort… oh, I can’t hold it any longer! Hahh.hah..hahhh…Jeeez… you think he’ll make fun of the way I fish??… — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dammit! Something’s wrong with my computer – it keeps flashing to some Internet Flyfishing Soap channel… /daytripper (as the world turns)

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Just ask Warren about the duck…. giggle…. snort… oh, I can’t hold it any longer! Hahh.hah..hahhh…Jeeez… you think he’ll make fun of the way I fish??…

Why stop at fish?  Why are ducks so special that you can’t catch them? <g Warren

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Just ask Warren about the duck…. giggle…. snort… oh, I can’t hold it any longer! Hahh.hah..hahhh…Jeeez… you think he’ll make fun of the way I fish??… Why stop at fish?  Why are ducks so special that you can’t catch them? <g Warren

. . . exactly. And its nice not having to pick the pellets out. An obvious fin/feather combo, without all the noise. Dave

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Ken, Kevin, Warren… Howdy!! I am @ site #80 in the Mammoth Hot Springs campground….do drop by and let me know the registration desk told me Ken cancelled his frontier cabin reservations…she was not aware of the group staying in a set of cabins…..anyway…I had a great afternoon (thur) session on the Yellowstone River, just above Tower Falls… I am not checking e mail regularly…so, drop by the camp site!!…otherwise, maybe i will run into you guys out on the rivers!!.. hands….then, back up to the campsite.. Regards.. Richard / colorado

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Question:

Things seemed to have calmed down between you and rw, yet you persist in stirring the pot once again.  What is to be gained from this? "It’s useless info, totally useless info, one way or the other, just like an indentation in the Budweiser can is totally useless info to a guy quaffing a beer." While I didn’t find the "haul and load" thread of much interest, as I am likely to be the least literate and/or intelligent Roffian on the face of the Earth, it seems that several other ROFFians were quite engaged in the discussion.  I rarely get involved in the more technical discussions pertaining to flyfishing, primarily because of my limited intellect, but I find it difficult to disparage others for doing so. Opie  —-

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Opie writes: While I didn’t find the "haul and load" thread of much interest, as I am likely to be the least literate and/or intelligent Roffian on the face of the Earth, it seems that several other ROFFians were quite engaged in the discussion.  I rarely get involved in the more technical discussions pertaining to flyfishing, primarily because of my limited intellect, but I find it difficult to disparage others for doing so. Opie  —-

You shouldn’t feel that way, Op.  Hell, someone is selling all my books and they have a thread about it "Pirate Book Sale".  Shoot, I haven’t finished looking at all the pictures yet and someone is selling all 4 of ‘em.  I just *know* Jo bought me  the FoF Fly Pattern Enclopedia and it has lots of pictures. Merry Christmas Dave L.

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Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

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Ok, make that the second least intelligent ROFFian on Earth! — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

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I just *know* Jo bought me  the FoF Fly Pattern Enclopedia and it has lots of pictures.

I hope you get that one. It looks like it would be a great book. — Charlie…

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Charlie: I just *know* Jo bought me  the FoF Fly Pattern Enclopedia and it has lots of pictures. I hope you get that one. It looks like it would be a great book. — Charlie…

I did!  And, it *is*! Dave

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I hope you get that one. It looks like it would be a great book.

It IS a great book. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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*know* Jo bought me  the FoF Fly Pattern Enclopedia and it has lots of pictures. I hope you get that one. It looks like it would be a great book. — Charlie…

It is a great book. I hope you get a chance to visit with the editors sometime. Al and Gretchen are some of the nicest people in the fly fishing business. If anyone is going to be in the Dallas area on Jan 13,  they are doing an all day seminar for the Dallas Flyfishers on that Saturday. Send me an e-mail iif you need further information. Al was the recepient of the Buzzack Award a couple of years ago, but I am not so sure that he ties any better than Gretchen. Big Dale

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Question:

Do you think atheists are more likely than Judeo-Christians to abuse their elderly parents (on account of the fact that they don’t believe in God and therefore are not held to that ridiculous "honor thy father and mother" edict)?

No, I don’t. But I do think that different cultures often develop very different attitudes about animals and about how they should be treated. That’s pretty hard to deny. Cows are sacred in India. Pigs are "unclean" in Moslem and Jewish culture. Dogs are food items in Vietnam. Horses are food items in France. Japanese fishermen deliberately kill large numbers of dolphins. It goes on and on. These practices and attitudes may be consistent and uncontroversial within a culture. Problems arise, however, when different cultures interact. I think that’s what’s happening with the Amish puppy mills. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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TWIMC 1. Horse trading with Amish? Want to lose your shirt? . . . only a fool. . . . Thats just a fact and if anyone on this NG would like to test it with their own money, I will personally offer to make comforting cooing sounds when you return without your money and with 3 to 6 new assholes. 2. Yeah, they do have a different attitude toward animals: They are single minded farmers surviving with a minimum of technology in a corporate farming world. They have to pay their taxes like everyone else, and the have lots of kids to help get established. Land costs money. They do what they have to to survive and Im not going to pick at their sores. Earth to ROFF! Earth to ROFF! 3. Associating Amish run puppy mills with Amish people is a stretch? . . . is bigoted? What a crock. Maybe its a stretch if you don’t get around much. Steve is right. Try this one on: Is mentioning the leading involvement of young renegade Amish in several high profile Pennsylvania drug busts . . . bigoted? Or is it just that shit happens? See, young Amish men raise hell. Surprise. Sheesh! 4. What is so hard about understanding that the difference between bigotry and cultural objectivity has a broad band of gray running down the middle. Its not your simple-minded binary geek-friendly, male preferred "either or" call. Scheesh, fucken word weenies! 5. Just as an FYI item: There are some unflattering terms that Amish use for non-Amish. One is "English." What are some or the others? Dave Ideology sucks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California. There’s Amish folk in California?  :-) Joe F.

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rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California. Ernie "rw" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets. That’s just fine with me. I have no problem with that at all. However, it seems to be having the perverse effect that the Amish have become major players in the puppy mill business, which supplies animals to pet shops. They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. The Amish certainly aren’t the only people in the puppy mill business, but they are major players. I realize that people who don’t care about dogs probably don’t give a shit, but it’s a sore point with me. It’s a very cruel business.

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In standard ROFF form, I’m now being portrayed as "anti-Amish".

Not so fast my evil name-twin Nobody said you’re anti-Amish, did they? Your statements simply appear to present a somewhat stereotypical view of Amish beliefs, IMO. I’m not, of course. I’m anti-puppy-mill. It just happens that for historical and cultural reasons some Amish are very involved in the puppy mill business. That’s an easily verified fact.

It’s easily verified that there are Amish families involved in the puppy mill business. It’s NOT easily verified that they’re in that business because they’re Amish. There’s a HUGE difference between "some Amish people abuse animals" and "some people abuse animals because they’re Amish." It sounds as though you were somehow implying the latter. Do you think atheists are more likely than Judeo-Christians to abuse their elderly parents (on account of the fact that they don’t believe in God and therefore are not held to that ridiculous "honor thy father and mother" edict)? –Steve

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Ken Fortenberry writes: … (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. … Stop your whining, Barnard. — Ken Fortenberry- can actually spell anti-Semite

<<<splork

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rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California.

There’s Amish folk in California?  :-) Joe F.

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Give him hell if you want, Bob, but beware, you may end up with a picture of Snoop Doggy Dog under your name on the ROFF Faces page.

  Oh, god, I’ve gone too far.  Anything but that!  I know I should have kept my opinions to myself.  Oh, crap.   It was really out of character for me to respond in such a manner and, normally, I wouldn’t.  But it did strike me that some stereotyping is acceptable and some isn’t.  I would never support a puppy mill business no matter who runs it.  If the Amish do indeed participate in the puppy mill business, I’m certainly not in favor of it.  I’ll bet this and many other topics will be discussed around the "campfire" on the SJ.  I’m going to be really, really nice to everyone so as to avoid any "mislabeling". Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Prehaps because they win a lot of races! Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price? An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R.

  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops?  This isn’t my job but since none of the regular PC cops stepped forward:   If someone on this group were to say, "blacks are lazy welfare bums, Mexicans are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Pollocks are dumb, southerners are in-bred hillbillies, asians are shifty, all male flight attendants are flamingly gay, Indians are drunken bums, eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks," the roff PC police would have jumped on them in a flash.  But —- I guess this is different. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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As for "puppy mills", ain’t never heard of one being run by the amish. They must be a lower order of amish located in Pennsylvania. (ducking here)

Go into google and search on "amish puppy mills". It’s appalling. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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<context snipped  Pollocks are dumb, <more snippage eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks,"

You got at least one of these right.  Pollocks (those inferior north atlantic cousins of the haddock that they try to sell as "schrod" when the cod are not biting…) are dumb as hell. –Stan (Polack first class)

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  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops?  This isn’t my job but since none of the regular PC cops stepped forward:   If someone on this group were to say, "blacks are lazy welfare bums, Mexicans are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Pollocks are dumb, southerners are in-bred hillbillies, asians are shifty, all male flight attendants are flamingly gay, Indians are drunken bums, eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks," the roff PC police would have jumped on them in a flash.  But —- I guess this is different.

It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets. That’s just fine with me. I have no problem with that at all. However, it seems to be having the perverse effect that the Amish have become major players in the puppy mill business, which supplies animals to pet shops. They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. The Amish certainly aren’t the only people in the puppy mill business, but they are major players. I realize that people who don’t care about dogs probably don’t give a shit, but it’s a sore point with me. It’s a very cruel business. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops? … But —- I guess this is different.

Exactly. Some here ARE different and have proven themselves to be so thoroughly insufferable and egotistical that it’s not productive to waste any energy admonishing them about their ugly prejudices. Give him hell if you want, Bob, but beware, you may end up with a picture of Snoop Doggy Dog under your name on the ROFF Faces page. — Ken Fortenberry- "Porky Forty"

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It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets… [snip] They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets.

RW, I found your puppy mills post to be enlightening. I learned something from you and I appreciate that. I’m much less inclined to purchase from a pet store should my kids ever talk me into having a pet. But, despite your explanation, I’m a bit uncomfortable with your Amish stereotype. As an example (and *only* as an illustrative example), try this on… "The Black culture teaches Black men that it’s OK to father children out of wedlock. Women are to be used for utilitarian purposes only and not to be kept as wives. They look at women as merely commodities, just another crop, even though children are born as a result." Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? If I were to suggest such a thing on this forum I would be ostracized and rightfully so. I’m not suggesting that you be ostracized, but rather that it’s not *because* they’re Amish that they’re doing something so despicable. –Steve

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: It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion : teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and : not kept as pets. Hmm, for starters I don’t believe that, and even if the general gist is true, the two are not mutually exclusive. The Amish are people, just like us, and I cannot believe that many of them don’t get attached to their animals, especially since they interact with, and even depend on, them more than we do. FWIW, I’d much rather see an animal get used than stand in a pen every day or sit in a cramped dog run. I’ll bet you won’t see an Amish horse develop the "bad" habits that indicate psychological imbalance (i.e., pacing, cribbing, pawing, and other repetetive acts). The fact is, there is *way* more abuse by us "recreational" pet owners. : They look at the animals as merely : commodities, as just another "crop", This is simple stereotyping. Yes, I’ve no doubt that there are "bad apples" in the Amish communities, just as there are in ours. People are people. But "they" aren’t any worse than us, and in many ways they might even be better… JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets… [snip] They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. RW, I found your puppy mills post to be enlightening. I learned something from you and I appreciate that. I’m much less inclined to purchase from a pet store should my kids ever talk me into having a pet. But, despite your explanation, I’m a bit uncomfortable with your Amish stereotype. As an example (and *only* as an illustrative example), try this on… "The Black culture teaches Black men that it’s OK to father children out of wedlock. Women are to be used for utilitarian purposes only and not to be kept as wives. They look at women as merely commodities, just another crop, even though children are born as a result." Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? If I were to suggest such a thing on this forum I would be ostracized and rightfully so. I’m not suggesting that you be ostracized, but rather that it’s not *because* they’re Amish that they’re doing something so despicable.

Many stereotypes have an element of truth to them. For example, in the Middle Ages the Church forbade Christians from charging interest on loans, but Jews were under no such restriction. As a result, many Jews became moneylenders, thereby encurring the resentment of Christians who owed them money. So we get stereotypes like Shakespeare’s Shylock that strike many people as offensive (I think that’s a misreading of The Merchant of Venice), but the stereotype was based on a real cultural practice. (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. That would be funny.) The Amish puppy mills are similar, I think. According to the Amish religious tradition there’s nothing wrong with them, but dog fanciers don’t see it that way. They see a cruel business. I’d never say that all Amish are cruel to animals, but I do think that Amish religious beliefs allow some of them to do something (run puppy mills) that many people believe is wrong, and to do it with a clear conscience. In other words, they’re acting consistently within their own moral framework, but that framework is at odds with the morals of the larger society that they have to deal with. There are a lot of examples of these sorts of conflict between what different cultures think is moral — female circumcision in Africa, Japanese whaling, capital punishment in America (from a European point of view), etc. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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… (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. …

Stop your whining, Barnard. — Ken Fortenberry- can actually spell anti-Semite

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In standard ROFF form, I’m now being portrayed as "anti-Amish". I’m not, of course. I’m anti-puppy-mill. It just happens that for historical and cultural reasons some Amish are very involved in the puppy mill business. That’s an easily verified fact. It’s kind of like saying that because someone doesn’t like diamonds he must be antisemitic. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Well shit!  That’ll be my last Amish joke.  I will take issue with you RW, on the matter of how amish folks treat their animals…with the exception of my 20+ yrs military and globe trotting out of Elkhart county, I have lived with these folks as my neighbors for most of my life.  They see *any* of their animals as a food source or work unit, even cats are used in the main to keep the rodents out of the grain. Therefore, especially in the case of horses, they are well trained and taken care of…who wants a sickly horse pulling the plow?  Of course, they use huge draft horses for the work, and sleek "trotters" for pulling the buggy. 20 miles from my house is a huge auction barn where they hold horse auctions every Friday, and folks come from miles around to trade with these rapscallions. As for "puppy mills", ain’t never heard of one being run by the amish. They must be a lower order of amish located in Pennsylvania. (ducking here) As to flyfishing, I’ve only witnessed one instance of that, and it was so funny I had to stop my own fishing and just watched.  This would-be flyflinger (in a small boat) would bring the rod clear back to horizontal, then with great force, bring it forward using a full overhead arm swing, to parallel with the water in front.  The resulting splash was something to behold!  Our bluegill population was safe from this guy. Frank (where’s my black hat?) Church

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Because they dont see bloody monty roberts and his bad training techniques on the telly )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price? An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. Geeze. Way to let the air out of a good joke, steve…

Geez, I thought the C&R thing was at least a little comic relief. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R.

Geeze. Way to let the air out of a good joke, steve… /daytripper (Get laid or something. Soon. ;^)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church

The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

Hi folks – PPRUNE also have some pics taken by Tech Crew of some BIG buildups http://www.pprune.com/ and choose "GALLERY" Martin . You may care to contact me with your email ad for a few pics I’ve taken at FL390 in Asia re: thunderstorms. Mike    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

The region of weather surrounding the earth is in the troposphere, the layer in which we live,and it extends up to the tropopause.  It is characterised by a temp lapse rate, ie, it gets colder as we ascend. After the tropopause the next layer, the stratosphere is considered to be isothermal. As has been stated , the tropopause ranges up around 18km in the low latitudes to around 8 km at the poles. It is not continueous and has significant discontinuities in the region of about 25 -30 degrees north and south latitude  and this is where the jet streams form. Back to the cloud then, convective types, the big cauliflower ones, can go up around 50000 ft in the equitorial regions associated with the wet season. This is the Intertropic Convergence Zone, the region where the northern and southern hemisphere airs meet and mix. This zone migrates north and south with the passage of the sun. To fly north this zone must always be penetrated and that is what we experience on a flight to south east asia from Aust. The zone is wide over the land masses of asia , png and an additional zone , the south pacific convergent zone is also generated and identified from PNG through the Solomon Isls area. The zone is quite narrow around Canton Island. (sometimes!!!) Although generally speaking flight above the tropopause brings smooth, clear sky, flying conditions it isn’t the most economic place to fly and on most occasions the flight is almost finished before the aeroplane is at the weight to climb to that level. In recent times the space shuttle has identified ‘clouds’ at the 40-50 mile high region, named ‘noctilucent cloud’ by NASA. These were first reported by astronauts in the pre moon and moon shots. Thought to be water vapour that has escaped the earths atmosphere via the breaks in the tropopause at the sub tropical high pressure belt region. ( thats the belt of high px that girdles the earth and lies over aust in the winter.) cowboy Before you buy.

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Question for the Knucks    In big T/h and mission critical   do you adopt a "penetration speed" light the fires and Punch on through  or whats the current teaching.?

I think it’s something along the lines of  "Thunderstorm? Was that what that bump was?"

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<snipped me own stuff So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy Before you buy.

Hiya Cowboy My understanding is that – at Adelaide at least – there is a separate CRT (or whatever they are) on which the weather radar is displayed onto. It is reasnably smaller than the main screen used for ATC, and sits above the operator being easliy visible at all times. It also displays atmospheric electrical activity issuing a warning tone once certain paramters are passed (EG frequency of activity in a certain range) – or so I believe – I have just gleaned this info from snooping the airbands & friends who have visited the ATC Centre – not from any 1st hand knowledge ) (maybe time for another visit – but then I’d HAVE TO GO TO MELBOURNE TO DO THAT !!!!!!  :-|  ) TTFN Ben Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

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So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy

From a tech perspective… Current generation Australian ATC radar sensors have a weather channel and processor as well as the aircraft channel.  I can tell you the difference and how its done if your interested.  At the moment we aren’t sending wx info to the display system for various reasons, although that may be going to change.  The TAAATS displays are capable of displaying wx vectors but only at 3 or 4 intensities and at the moment I don’t believe the (wx intensity) levels are set to be able to differentiate storms.  The wx data is only available out to fifty NM from the sensor too.  The tech display at the sensor is capable of displaying (amongst other things, depending on how it is set up) fairly accurate wx pictures, however the data rates that would be required to present this at the centres make it impractical (read too expensive). Most centres (Presumably Perth is one of these Frank?) have RAPIC (Met wx radar) displays which are quite capable of displaying and differentiating storm cells- they actually display rainfall intensity. RAPIC sensors are at all capitals AFAIK plus various other places.  Here at Cooly the closest is Brisbane, which puts us right at the edge of range, and I’ve been told it’s not as useful as it could be.  You’ll have seen a RAPIC type display on some of the TV weather reports- they call it their ‘colour wx radar’ or some such. Sorry to jump in Frank… JM — If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Take out the zigzag or you’ll miss us…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Frank & others Indeed your right about ATC accomodating traffic diversions Frank. I was listening to Adelaide App/Dep and Centre one Sunday night while a row of TS went through ADL (listening on my scanner that is – tucked up in bed where VFR Pilot’s should be on such a night:-)   ) A Bae146 departed ADL for MEL and very soon after takeoff reported that his WX radar had failed. With  the assistance of ATC ground based WX radar and reports from other a/c,   ATC managed to steer this 146 left and right and all over the place clear of buildups until he was about 100DME east. Always interesting listening when times are busy and WX is bad TTFN

So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy Before you buy.

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Question for the Knucks    In big T/h and mission critical   do you adopt a "penetration speed" light the fires and Punch on through  or whats the current teaching.?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to disagree with you on this one cowboy. Reseachers in Meteorology have three favorite sites for thunderstorm research, Belgium Congo, Amazon Basin and Darwin. I visited a joint US/Australian research program in Darwin in the early 90’s and I cannot remember the exact numbers but in January they were getting daily CB tops over FL450. and occasionally in the 60’s. The reason for Darwin selection is the consistent formation (Hector was mentioned in another post) and the good vertical buildups. These programs are still conducted almost on a annual basis from around December to March and comprise widely displaced  radar, lightning detection and sonde flights along with fixed wing aircraft when they can afford them. The aircraft costs and risks is one of the reasons for the development of the Aerosonde (see http://www.aerosonde.com/aerora_home.htm  ) and UAV type aircraft will be used more and more in future for weather related research. No way you will get me in a C130 or Orion crunching through thunderstorms. (Crunching is the operative word) <snip IWe don’t have as much moisture in the atmosphere in Aust to generated the conditions that you describe. It could have been a mature ’supercell’ thunderstorm but even though it looked black dark and horrible it was not in the immediate path of the departing traffic. Brian G

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Frank Paterson said..  FP Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. Yes, I know. It’s just that I hate lightning. Silly paranoia I know..  FP It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the  FP vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still One of the most tense moments of my travelling life was a final into JFK during winter, 1996. Most of the descent was in cloud/fog, and it was rough all the way. When we touched down, and began slowing, you could almost hear the tension slide away, and not a few pax actually applauded. Like you said, it must be hell for those who do have a genuine fear of flying. .. Be nice to your kids. They’ll choose your nursing home. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia.

When I was working in Darwin NASA had their E2 (or U2 if you wish) and a Herc (or perhaps Orion – memory fade) doing data gathering on tropical storms. The E2 used to fly on top of the CBs and the poor old turboprop had to go into the guts of it. The E2 advised one afternoon that they were 5000 ft above the highest anvil they had ever seen and they were at FL690. On another note, a Flight Service Officer asked the E2 for his actual level for traffic purposes and he stated if you get anything above FL600 let me know and I’ll give the traffic my level. Alan

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Frank Paterson said..  FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re  FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm. For those who’ve never experienced tropical thunderstorms, it was one of the scariest moments of our lives. I could have sworn that the Dash 8 (I think it was) was hit as it rotated. It wasn’t pleasant driving in it, either. We waited at the airport till the storm cleared. I’ve never seen so much rain and lightning than in a summer Florida storm before. .. 5 out of 3 people have problems with fractions MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. You can take some small comfort from the fact that at high altitudes (the altitudes we were talking about, jet cruising altitudes) you are usually in the clear and can see the cells.  Also, jet aircraft are usually fitted with weather radar so even if the aircraft is not in the clear, the pilot can usually "see" the storm on the radar and divert around it.  ATC can usually accommodate a diversion to avoid turbulance.   It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still accommodate diversions but it’s more difficult and traffic flows may suffer as a result.   The decision to land or depart when there is a thunderstorm in the immediate vicinity of an airport is a joint pilot-ATC responsibility. ATC is responsible for runway selection and providing as much info as possible to the pilot.  The ultimate go/no-go decision is the pilot’s. Smaller, and especially propellor driven aircraft (your Dash 8 in Florida), are generally less susceptible to wind shear and may go where a larger jet will not. If a pilot chooses to go it will be because he asses it as safe.  It will not necessarily be comfortable!  I’m aware that is of little consolation to people who suffer a fear of flying, etc.  Passengers’ comfort and their perception of the airline company and its performance may form part of the pilot’s go/no-go decision.  We (ATC) don’t consider that at all – not our job. Cheers Frank Frank Paterson said.. FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm.

The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia. When I was working in Darwin NASA had their E2 (or U2 if you wish) and a Herc (or perhaps Orion – memory fade) doing data gathering on tropical storms. The E2 used to fly on top of the CBs and the poor old turboprop had to go into the guts of it. The E2 advised one afternoon that they were 5000 ft above the highest anvil they had ever seen and they were at FL690. On another note, a Flight Service Officer asked the E2 for his actual level for traffic purposes and he stated if you get anything above FL600 let me know and I’ll give the traffic my level. Alan

The second anecdote suggests the accuracy of the first. These posts are getting like fishing stories. Is there anybody reading from the BOM or Guinness book of record lies to adjudicate. cowboy Before you buy.

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Frank Paterson said..  FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re  FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm. For those who’ve never experienced tropical thunderstorms, it was one of the scariest moments of our lives. I could have sworn that the Dash 8 (I think it was) was hit as it rotated. It wasn’t pleasant driving in it, either. We waited at the airport till the storm cleared. I’ve never seen so much rain and lightning than in a summer Florida storm before.

The major airports in the USA are now fitted with LLWAS Low Level Wind Shear Alert  Systems utilising doppler weather radar that defines the heart of the shear and the position of it to the or an active runway. It gives a clear warning to the tower operator.There is no way an aeroplane would take off into such a storm if the alert system gave a warning. No pilot would take off into the heart of a cell. In Australia we recall the loss of the Vickers Viscount that was lost at the mouth of Botany Bay. The Sec general of the UN, Dag hammersjold ??? was lost in the Belgium Congo in the same situation. We don’t have as much moisture in the atmosphere in Aust to generated the conditions that you describe. It could have been a mature ’supercell’ thunderstorm but even though it looked black dark and horrible it was not in the immediate path of the departing traffic. They don’t pay enough for a pilot to take off into such a storm and in answer to Frank P’s post, no pilot would take off into one just to maintain the perceived passenger image of his airline……. and would the pax want him too. cowboy Before you buy.

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There have been T-storms in Oklahoma with recored tops at over 75000 ft and I don’t know of any higher that have been reported but the best weather radar equipment in the world is there so it could be theres higher storms where no one is looking. The atomsphere where storms from is about 20,000 ft at the poles to about 60,000 ft at the equator.  Of course there are exceptions and they build storms that eat trailer parks. -tim http://web.abnormal.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My old Met instructor Billy Ware went to great lengths to explain that storms have a greater capacity for vertical growth the closer you get to the equator. This is due to the greater height of the atmosphere at the equator, which in turn is related to its higher rotational velocity than the atmosphere at the poles. Generally storms are limited by the tropopause. Which is definitely higher the closer you get to the equator.

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Hi Frank & others Indeed your right about ATC accomodating traffic diversions Frank. I was listening to Adelaide App/Dep and Centre one Sunday night while a row of TS went through ADL (listening on my scanner that is – tucked up in bed where VFR Pilot’s should be on such a night:-)   ) A Bae146 departed ADL for MEL and very soon after takeoff reported that his WX radar had failed. With  the assistance of ATC ground based WX radar and reports from other a/c,   ATC managed to steer this 146 left and right and all over the place clear of buildups until he was about 100DME east. Always interesting listening when times are busy and WX is bad TTFN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. You can take some small comfort from the fact that at high altitudes (the altitudes we were talking about, jet cruising altitudes) you are usually in the clear and can see the cells.  Also, jet aircraft are usually fitted with weather radar so even if the aircraft is not in the clear, the pilot can usually "see" the storm on the radar and divert around it.  ATC can usually accommodate a diversion to avoid turbulance.   It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still accommodate diversions but it’s more difficult and traffic flows may suffer as a result.   The decision to land or depart when there is a thunderstorm in the immediate vicinity of an airport is a joint pilot-ATC responsibility. ATC is responsible for runway selection and providing as much info as possible to the pilot.  The ultimate go/no-go decision is the pilot’s. Smaller, and especially propellor driven aircraft (your Dash 8 in Florida), are generally less susceptible to wind shear and may go where a larger jet will not. If a pilot chooses to go it will be because he asses it as safe.  It will not necessarily be comfortable!  I’m aware that is of little consolation to people who suffer a fear of flying, etc.  Passengers’ comfort and their perception of the airline company and its performance may form part of the pilot’s go/no-go decision.  We (ATC) don’t consider that at all – not our job. Cheers Frank

Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

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Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

the big towering storms up north in the wet often reach towards 50 000ft.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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Generally, if it has lightning in it, then it will go up a long way…. JB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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We were on cruise a few years back on the way to Bangkok from Melb around 39,000 ft when we entered a violent thunderstorm and the plane was hit but seemed to emerge totally undamaged. We were surrounded by storms all with tops way higher than us. Bernie Samms Kingston Beach Tasmania Australia Aero Club of Southern Tasmania   www.acst.com.au Prologic Pty Ltd                           www.prologic.com.au

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

the big towering storms up north in the wet often reach towards 50 000ft.

I thought I’d heard mention of storm tops to 75 0000ft when I was in Isa, but then I’m Tech not Met so I wouldn’t be sure… — If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Take out the zigzag or you’ll miss us…

Response:

A friend of mine was recently flying a corporate jet at 47,000 somewhere between Broom and Alice Springs, bound for Sydney.  They diverted around the top of a storm by what should have been an adequate margin but copped lateral gusts.  The envelope for there aircraft is not big up there and the airspeed fluctuations required *very* urgent descent.  I think he said they got a stall warning and almost a stick shaker. So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re significant. Cheers Frank Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up?

The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

Response:

Martin . You may care to contact me with your email ad for a few pics I’ve taken at FL390 in Asia re: thunderstorms. Mike    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

My old Met instructor Billy Ware went to great lengths to explain that storms have a greater capacity for vertical growth the closer you get to the equator. This is due to the greater height of the atmosphere at the equator, which in turn is related to its higher rotational velocity than the atmosphere at the poles. Generally storms are limited by the tropopause. Which is definitely higher the closer you get to the equator. My experience was that if Bill said it then generally it was true.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – % % % % % I don’t know, but if this guy % is for real……he scares me!!!! % % This is the strait scoop.  Theres % nothing to be scared of unless your a % smartmouth like that stooge guy Moe. % % % Me, too!  Strangely, I’m reminded % of the thread from late % Summer/early Fall that dealt % with stories of sabotage, flattened % tires and other acts against fisher % people…  hmmmmmmmmmmmmm! % % I dont know nothin about that % stuff.  I just started posting % here.   I know % about guys who got their tires % slashed when they fished here in NY on them % Indian reservations.   You gotta % watch out for some of them jamokes when %they % go on the warpath.  I could tell % you stories but I dont got the time now. %The % little lady is already bitchin % cause Im running the computer instead of %helping % with her dishes. % % MEOW!!!! % % Tony G. % % % -tran % Oakland, CA % % % % % % % % THIS POSTED IN ALT.FAN.KARL-MALDEN.NOSE, %ALT.ALIEN.VAMPIRE.FLONK.FLONK.FLONK, % REC.OUTDOORS.FISHING.FLY  REC.OUTDOORS % FISHING.BASS, ALT.FISHING % % BOYCOTT THE COLEMAN STORE FOR CENSHORSHIP % www.rochesterweb.com/colemans % a.f.k-m.n.n (newbie)number of 2. % THIS POSTED IN ALT.FAN.KARL-MALDEN.NOSE, %ALT.ALIEN.VAMPIRE.FLONK.FLONK.FLONK, % REC.OUTDOORS.FISHING.FLY % REC.OUTDOORS FISHING.BASS, ALT.FISHING % % BOYCOTT THE COLEMAN STORE FOR CENSHORSHIP % www.rochesterweb.com/colemans % a.f.k-m.n.n (newbie)number of 2. % %PROBLEM THE FIRST: Adding "Subject" %to the subject header %is stupid and redundant and %fucks up the way that many %newsreaders, including Mozilla %and Agent, display threads. % %PROBLEM THE SECOND: You did not %x-post this to AFKMN, or %for that matter anywhere else, %and especially not any of %the groups that you list. In %fact, all of the people you %replied too will likely never %see your posts for this %reason. (You will note that %this has been corrected, %and I even added alt.flame %to the headers, because I %felt like flaming a newbie %anyway. You’re welcome.) % %PROBLEM THE THIRD: We (TINW) %do not issue "newbie %numbers". I don’t know who %told you that, and whoever %it is is probably going to be %really pissed that I ruined %the joke, but that’s the truth. % %PROBLEM THE FOURTH: Your grammar sucks. % %PROBLEM THE FIFTH: You make no %attempt at making anything %even vaguely resembling UPA. %This of course makes me %wonder why you are here in %the first place, unless of %course you are one of those %stupid newbie me-tooers that %have been plaguing us recently. %Which is in fact very %likely. % %PROBLEM THE SIXTH: You posted %your sig twice. Way to %go, dipshit. % %PROBLEM THE SEVENTH: You suck. % %CONCLUSION: I’d plonk you, but %I’m actually vaguely %interested as to how you react to this. % %– %mhm37×4                   crisis at quackquack dot com % %"They call them ‘bouncing %baby boys’, but they don’t really %bounce. They just sort of go ‘plop’." % %      -Bruce McCulloch % %Mr. Crisis; % %I dont got a lot of time to post %this morning.  I got up late and I gotta open %the shop up for the boys in a few minutes. % %I wrote Mr. Crisis cause I dont know %if your a guy or a girl from your name but %Im guessing your a guy.   If Im wrong %I figger you’ll let me know. % %I know Im a newbie and I figger %like most places this is some kind of %initation.  Im cool with that.  So %Im not gonna get insulting back at you %because that probably wouldnt be %the Meow way and Im trying to be a good Meower %now.  I hope I pass the initation. % %Ive been reading the Nose for weeks %now and I dont remeber seeing too much from %you before.  Your probably one of %them lower rankin Meowers that they use for %the initations.  Your not one of the %big time Meowers like Medcial Catastrophy. % Thats ok because you still rank higher %than me.  Its like us guys at the %volunteer fire dept all got different ranks. % %It dont always got anything to do %with how long you been somewhere neither.   I %been with the fire dept for 12 years %now but I take orders from the guy whose %Captain even though hes only been there %6 years and Im bigger than he is and I %could kick his behind if I wanted to. %   I figger its somethin like that. % %Im doing good as a mewoer so far. %Ive got all kinds of guys pissed off in all %them fishin groups and there talking %about ratting on me to compuserv and me %losing my account with compuserv. %Dont you people call that netpolice?  They %dont want me posting there because %they dont want to here nothing bad about the %fishing and the guys lifting and %snaggin the fish all the tiem. % %Before I go I wanted to talk about %some of them problems you mentioned.  Thanks %for posting to all those groups all %at once for me.   With this compuserv crap %I cant crosspost nothin.   The reason %for stuff being in my posts twice is %because Ive been copying and then %pasting all these posts to new posts and then %posting to each group individually. %It sure takes a lot of time and thats why %I dont have a lot of time to respond today. % %As far as them newbie numbers I got. %I got 3133T from Medical Catastrophy and %the other one I got from Scott Johnson. %I dont know what the Meow policy is on %them numbers but I figger that Medical % Catastrophy knows what hes talkin about. % Youll have to take it up with him. %Hes like your boss right? % %PS  Whats UPA?   I cant talk intelligent %about it if I dont know what it is. % %PPS   I know my writing sucks but %its better than it used to be.  Im trying but %its hard.  Its always been hard.   The %penguins were always making me stay %after school as a kid at the Catholic %school there.  I want to be a writer %though so I can write good stuff %about the storys my dad used to tell me about %WW2 and Toe Joe and Hero Hito. % %Ill see ya.  Thanks again. % %MEOW!!!!! % %Tony G.  3133T This troll.  It is simply too obvious. I will not respond to it. hey toneyg im liek teh lowest rankeing dued here next to loerd corkscrewbutt so yuo can litsen to me but be suer not to copey anytheing i do or respeong to me or yuoll be immeddieatetly gieven a vrey low mewo rank henvieng said thet i hace to respecteufleley disagree weth teh

Question:

I saw a translation of the Redding CA fly shop’s fishing reports posted here several weeks ago. I am meeting a group that frequent the area this weekend and would like to share that with them. Does anyone know where I can get that post? Dingbat

Response:

I saw a translation of the Redding CA fly shop’s fishing reports posted here several weeks ago. I am meeting a group that frequent the area this weekend and would like to share that with them. Does anyone know where I can get that post? Dingbat

Hi Karl, This is the web address: http://206.155.34.5/report.taf Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Question:

Don Hill  (which I have a 16′ drift boat and like) http://www.dhdriftboats.com/ Greg Tatman (which my best fishing buddy has a 16′ and works great) http://www.gregboats.com/index2.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Im looking for website’s and any other information on the purchase of an 8 foot Pram for Flyfishing. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Ernest V

Response:

There is a company called Spring Creek on Bainbridge Island who sells an 8′ pram which is the best I’ve seen.  49" beam 16" freeboard, fiberglass, 65#. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Im looking for website’s and any other information on the purchase of an 8 foot Pram for Flyfishing. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Ernest V

Response:

Im looking for website’s and any other information on the purchase of an 8 foot Pram for Flyfishing. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Ernest V

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Question:

I’m Interested in buying a boat for shallow water fishing in Bays and Rivers (Chesapeake Bay) Can anyone give me thier opinion on the Carolina Skiffs. I’ll be flyfishing from this boat. Preferably would like to hear from skiff owners or dealers. Thanks Nick DelleDonne "The Evening Rise Fly Angler’s Shop"

Response:

I’m Interested in buying a boat for shallow water fishing in Bays and Rivers (Chesapeake Bay) Can anyone give me thier opinion on the Carolina Skiffs. I’ll be flyfishing from this boat. Preferably would like to hear from skiff owners or dealers. Thanks Nick DelleDonne "The Evening Rise Fly Angler’s Shop"

Hi Nick: I own a Southern Skimmer,(pretty much the same boat) I love it, you don’t need much water to run in or that much power to push it. I use mine on the great south bay on long island(NY) and it gets a little bouncy when its rough but on a river or lake where it’s a little calmer it should be great. J Branca

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