Question:

they tend to be much more     durable than the store-bought variety, and cost about 50 cents apiece.     Home-made leaders cost me about a dime apiece, if that. I can tell that you haven’t bought store-bought leaders in quite a while.     Willi

Response:

 I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

I personally don’t really have a preference either way. I do find in some rivers where algae is a problem the need to constantly clear the knots on the leader of the weed or algae to be a pain, but  then I have to do that with the tippet knot anyway. In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off. Umpqua have a phenomenal range of different leaders. check out their web site if you are interested, even if you don’t purchase your leaders their various different designs will give you some ideas for your own. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders?

I almost always make my own because I think it’s easy and like you said I can use whatever material I want.  I can whip up a leader or fix one in a couple minutes out on the stream.  I don’t think there’s as much difference between some of these leader formulas as the creators imply, but still it’s nice to know you can quickly make changes to your leader once you know the basics of how they work and how to tie the knots.

Response:

In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off.

Sounds like you’re tying your own leaders the way it is.  Borger’s Uni-body leader is no more complicated than that.

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[...] I don’t think there’s as much difference between some of these leader formulas as the creators imply…

        Agreed.  There are more variations in leader formulae than Heinz has pickles and ketchup.  :-)  I’ve been using the simple formula in Kreh’s and Sosin’s "Practical Fishing Knots", and for 90% of the fishing I do, it works about as well as anything.   but still it’s nice to know you can quickly make changes to your leader once you know the basics of how they work and how to tie the knots.

        I think that’s the beauty of tying your own.  You can tweak your leader to the conditions and the characteristics of the fly you’re using and refine the presentation to what you need.  Sometimes this can really pay off.  Of course, other times, the leader configuration doesn’t matter a whit. Todd

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Perhaps so, so but in reality, that is the correct way to use store bought leaders with the butt section bit being the only real optional part. Tippet should always be added pretty much. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In this day and age of convenience I find the range of tapered leaders now offered covers all of the fishing situations I do and it’s simple. I have a heavy piece of butt section needle knotted to the fly line, I attach a commercial leader to that and a tippet to the end of it and go fishing. Tying your own leaders can be fun, but I find the fun soon wears off. Sounds like you’re tying your own leaders the way it is.  Borger’s Uni-body leader is no more complicated than that.

Response:

I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader.

I prefer tying my own because a) it can get you back into rising fish faster, and b) the flexibility you mention above. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly.

I haven’t noticed any hinging with the double surgeon’s knot, and I think the presentation is comparable either way. I’m sure some strength is lost, as it is with any knot, but I haven’t lost any more fish with the hand-tied than with the store-bought. — TL, Tim

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Slightly off topic, but what book are you reading? Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders?

I find the disadvantages of knots in leaders too great for dry fly fishing (viz. bits of flimsy mono catching on the knots.) I use a tapered leader tapered to a heavier weight – say four pounds – then tie a tippet of a lighter weight – say three pounds – maybe two or three feet. And then there’s a couple of feet of heavy mono attached to the line, with a loop in it. Keep cutting the tippet down till there’s no more, then add another. L

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The book is titled "Drag-Free Drift Leader Design and Presentation Techniques for Fly Fishing" by Joseph A. Kissane.  There’s an associated CD Rom that does leader calculations by Steven B. Schweitzer.  He’s cofounder of the Global Flyfisher website.  The book is actually pretty good.  The author is an engineer so it’s written in a technical writing style and is very detailed in parts.  Sometimes I feel like I’m reading a physics textbook. I’m an analyst by profession so I like to understand things. Sometimes I think it’s better not knowing whether my leader is hinging or not.  Like one guy posted on the Leaders & Tippet thread  that goes something like this: "I just tie it that way and it works.  Don’t know why." I think that’s all that counts. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Slightly off topic, but what book are you reading? Jim Ray I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill. Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on. Lots of very sophisticated fly fishers use tapered knotless leader, but they modify them a bit. Years ago we all tied our own leaders because the only ones you could buy were not too good. I still tie my own leaders for steelhead and salt water. I think everyone that wants to tie their own leaders, tie their own flies and build their own rods should do so because it is fun and can be very educational. After you tie your own knotted leaders and play with them to see how they work, you can use knotless tapered leaders and do some adjusting on them to get them to work just fine. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been reading about the advantages/disadvantages of leader material. The author of the book I’m reading seemed to indicate that manufactured knotless leaders can have a variability in performance because of the way the leader is tapered.  Knotted leaders gives more control of the proportions on the leader formulas to ensure the taper is more accurate. Also, there is the flexibility of using different types of leader material to customize the leader to the fishing conditions.  Like using a stiffer leader material on the butt and middle sections and more supple material on the presentation end of the leader. He also gets into the types of knots and whether or not "hinging" occurs and what impact that has on the transfer of energy from the rod to the line to the fly. Is there a preference by you guys whether or not you tie your own leaders or go with the ready-made pre-tapered leaders? Thanks, Eric p.s.  Thanks for the response on the tippet post.  A lot of good info there.

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill. Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on…

I used knotless leaders for the first year or two that I fly fished, and they worked well enough, but I think my own leaders work even better. Having stuff catch on the knots is a minor to nonexistent "problem," or at least it is in the places I normally fish. When it does happen, removing the moss or whatever is pretty quick and simple. It only takes a few minutes to make a leader from scratch, and these leaders have, IMO, several important advantages. I can give it exactly the taper I want, I can use different kinds of monofilament in different parts of the leader (stiffer at the butt, softer at the tippet, for instance), and when rebuilding the leader at streamside, I know exactly where I am in the taper by following the knots. The toughest part is learning to tie a good blood knot, and it only takes a few leaders to get the hang of that. I tie my own flies for similar reasons. I can use exactly which materials I want, and modify or create patterns as I see fit,  they tend to be much more durable than the store-bought variety, and cost about 50 cents apiece. Home-made leaders cost me about a dime apiece, if that. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Hi Eric, I would say that today that about 90% of the fly fishers use knotless tapered leaders for trout. Why? Well, probably the same reason about 90% of the fly fishers buy flies? They don’t have the time or the skill.

What a "Right On" remark to make.  Great! Actually, many anglers use knotless leaders for trout because they don’t want all those knots for stuff to catch on.

Not, IMHO, anything but a cop out reason.  Doesn’t hold water because it is "The Fly" which must be kept clean at all times.   After you tie your own knotted leaders and play with them to see how they work, you can use knotless tapered leaders and do some adjusting on them to get them to work just fine.

Bill?  I really think you’re a savvy kind of shop owner and the majority of your advice is super.  But I have to say this about tapered leaders.  From Brand to Brand, there is nothing as consistant in fly fishing than the consistant inconsistant tapers of tapered leaders. The ONLY WAY to be assured of a sharp turn over and absolute control for the SERIOUS fly fisherman is to tie their own, or better put, roll their own leaders.  It is rare that anything catches knots in hand tied leaders, not unless the water is full of dissideous moss and junk and even then, a tapered leader still  has a minimum of two or three knots involved. I truely dislike tapered leaders because they are heat melted from a single large diameter butt section and pulled to a longer taper, not unlike pulling warm bubble gum out of one’s mouth.  No two strings or pull are the same. Never! I take my fly fishing much too seriously not to tie my own.  It is an art form just like fly tying.  Why would anyone deny themselves of this pleasure when it comes to "The Ways of a Trout?"  I just can’t fathom the mind set that uses tapered leaders. George Gehrke "who always rolls his own" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi Bill, I haven’t tried tying my own leaders yet but would like to. The knots in the leader seem to be the biggest drawback.  When I went with guide on Henry’s Fork, he set up "our rig" with a set up he tied himself.  I wished I had paid closer attention to what he had done.  We had a full day of great fishing and even for us rookies we could make decent casts (albeit not very far casts).  I buy the pre-made leaders and tie a tippet on the end.  They work well enough but the presentation is poor about half the time.  I’ve tinkered with cutting off certain parts and adding tippet where I think it might work better.  This trial and error approach does not always produce great results. I don’t get out as often as I like so I like to make the best of it when I do. I mostly fish high mountain lakes and as you probably know conditions can change rather quickly. If the day starts out warm and sunny, the leader has some nice flex to it.  Have the sun go behind the clouds and the wind kick up the leader gets stiff and my tippet will wrap around it like a rope on a tether ball pole.   Of course, that’s when the fishing starts to get hot and I’m there with a mess on the end of my fly line. Thanks, Eric

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Question:

dhdriftboats.com.    I built a 16" dory for the Grand Canyon

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Anybody know where i can find a good Mckenzie drift boat plan,  i’ve search the web without much success. Thank you so much for your help! Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Anybody know where i can find a good Mckenzie drift boat plan,  i’ve search the web without much success. Thank you so much for your help!

Try searching here: http://www.boat-links.com/search-LL.html Steve

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Try this web site for on line plans and instructions. http://www.montana-riverboats.com/boats/ Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

You need to try the fly fishing magazines and resources on the web.  Ray’s River Dories in Portland, OR, at least sells kits. Contact is Ray Heater at 503-244-3608 or e-mail at Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Question:

Hello all. Im just getting back into fishing, haveing not been able to go for a while. I live in Virginia, and just got back from Shenendoa National park fishing, but it was pretty poor. Im wondering if anyone has any info on Gunpowder Falls Trout streams in MD? Im thinking of trying there next week. Or any other good streams near the MD/VA area

Response:

Michael,  I’m an avid fly fisherman in Maryland.  One of my favorite streams is in Thurmon, MD.  Just up route 15.  Big Hunting Creek is the name.  It’s a fly fishing catch and release area with some large trout.  I do really well with midges just under the surface.  Try fishing up from the ranger cabin. Some great water.  Bill  (two years ago I caught my largest trout. 36" rainbow up there)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all. Im just getting back into fishing, haveing not been able to go for a while. I live in Virginia, and just got back from Shenendoa National park fishing, but it was pretty poor. Im wondering if anyone has any info on Gunpowder Falls Trout streams in MD? Im thinking of trying there next week. Or any other good streams near the MD/VA area

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Question:

Did you ever see the Walker’s Cay Chronicles, where Flip Pallot and Lefty Kreh were down in that area fly fishing for False Albicore? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

Did you ever see the Walker’s Cay Chronicles, where Flip Pallot and Lefty Kreh were down in that area fly fishing for False Albicore? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

No.  I’d like to see it though.  That has become one hot light tackle fishery.  Since most people don’t like the false albacore, it is also a catch and release fishery, which will certainly help sustain the stocks as the popularity increases. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Jeff; Congrabulations!  Hope you fall as much in love with your Scout as I have mine.  False Albacore should be running in your area soon, right? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

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Jeff; Congrabulations!  Hope you fall as much in love with your Scout as I have mine.  False Albacore should be running in your area soon, right? – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Yes.  It usually happens in April.  Worry not, I will be catching them! Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

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   Congrats Jeff !!!!   Have fun Mike G.

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just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob

With 150 HP Yamaha and a $2000 single axle trailer for this new 19′ boat, my guess would be $25,000. — Skipper

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob

I paid a fair price to the dealer in my area that was most helpful. Amazingly, I was able to negotiate a deal without knowing dealer invoice, blue book value, and wholesale cost.  If you are serious about prices, I suggest calling some dealers in your area for some quotes.  Tell me what they are quoting, and I will give you my opinion on that price.   Scout makes boats up to 20′ in center console, dual console, side console, and flats style.  They are at www.scoutboats.com. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

just womdering what you paid? and do the scouts come in center consoles and what is there cost if you dont mind thanks rob With 150 HP Yamaha and a $2000 single axle trailer for this new 19′ boat, my guess would be $25,000. — Skipper

Good guess, Skipper.  I got a dual axle trailer, and the boat is closer to 20′ than 19′ (19′ 10" LOA). Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

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Got the call from the dealer today.  My new Scout 202 SF is in!  I’m going to go down on Saturday and lay out where I want the electronics mounted.  It will be ready for the water next week, and I anticipate picking it up on the 13th!   Now I just need the fish to start their trip to the NC coast… Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Got the call from the dealer today.  My new Scout 202 SF is in!  I’m going to go down on Saturday and lay out where I want the electronics mounted.  It will be ready for the water next week, and I anticipate picking it up on the 13th!   Now I just need the fish to start their trip to the NC coast… Jeff

Congrats indeed, Jeff!  It always seems that the first year or two, when you’re busy turning the boat into what you want it to be, are the most enjoyable.  We just switched and there’s all the usual redoing to change the obviously stupid decisions the manufacturer and previous owners made to the One True Path of Righteousness (and humility???) Enjoy!

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Question:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

Nassau, for the three reasons mentioned. — DAVe & Skoshi, ‘69 Stamas 26′ http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

Response:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

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I will NEVER go back to Nassau! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Nassau for sure!

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The northernmost Abacos seemed a tad dreary… of course it’s all relative; fishermen find Walker’s Cay a piscatorial paradise- scuba & beachcombing too. Norman’s Cay was a smuggling hotspot in the ’80s, but appears to be under control… now pilots fly there for fishing, scuba & gourmet food, not ‘business’.  Bimini & points south ditto. When cruising anywhere truly remote, tho, a bit of disgression is a good idea. Trimtab Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Before you buy.

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All the places I go

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<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

You know in all the posts on this subject, nobody has thought to ask our intrepid boater just how fast his houseboat can go.  If he can wring 20kts out of it wihtout straining, it’s only a 2.5 or 3 hour crossing … more than enough time if he waits for the weather.  He can strap a liferaaft to the stern, tank up with gas, turn on his GPS, get out his charts and be in the Bahamas in time for lunch if he starts out at 0830!  The posters talking about leaving at night in order to get to port at the destination in the daylight are talking about doing 5 or 6 kts, not 15 or 20. If he really wants to know, he should take the boat offshore a ways to see how it reacts in ocean swells in the kind of weather he wants to cross in.  If he has trouble, he can head back; if he isn’t intent on crossing, he’ll head back anyway.  You’ll never know until you try it. Colin S.

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There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

Sure there are; and they may have island hopped in good weather to get there.  Or they may have come as deck cargo on a freighter. I’m not trying to rain on your parade; but safety comes first, for both you and your crew. You worked hard all your life to enjoy your retirement.  Don’t become a U.S. Coast Guard statistic. Jim Md.

Response:

Previously in response to a request for info on taking a house boat to the Bahamas someone said: You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.   If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

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This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel.

I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better.   That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better. That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

Another opinion:  A few years ago those of us who made 5 knots or less felt we should cross at night, so that if we missed the Bahamas altogether we would have all day to find the island we were looking for.  With GPS that is no longer necessary.  Easiest crossing is 50 NM from Lake Worth to West End  on Grand Bahama Island.  Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.  There will be other boats waiting out weather.  Often a group of boats cross together.  It is a comfort to cross with other boats.  The entrance to the marina at West End is tricky.  I have gone in there at least ten times, and I still worry about it. From West End on around as far as Little Harbor there are short hops and numerous anchorages.  I don’t recommend the stretch from Little Harbor to Eleuthera in a houseboat. I haven’t hear of a restriction on entering the Bahamas at night.  Go in and either anchor or dock, raise the yellow "Q" flag and don’t get off the boat until Customs arrives.

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Yes, sometimes the window is only about 4 hours from the time the wind picks up from the west (almost *always* in advance of a cold front) to the time it swings around to a 30 knot+ northerly gale.  Against the fast north- flowing Gulf Stream, the sea conditions become unbelievably bad with any breeze from the north. I’d ship the houseboat if I were you.  The Bahama banks would be a wonderful place for a boat like that, but getting it there across the Gulf Stream is quite a big risk. Dan

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 This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.

I said never and I meant never.  Houseboats are not designed for offshore work under any circumstances.  Talking about ideal wind and sea conditions is nonsense.  We are not explorers, we are pleasure boaters;   and there is no reason to place any person aboard in danger with a vessel which can only operate in ideal wind and sea conditions. The insurance companies share this view, I believe. Ask what the premium increase will be for a houseboat taken offshore.   Jim Md.

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.

If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Absolutely true! An Irwin 45 named "Sandy Lanes" that took off ahead of me in the westerlies before a strong cold front, wound up being driven ashore on the west side of Gun Cay! I waited until after the front passed when light southerlies began to blow and had no problem. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

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One of the respondents to Horace’ query stated: : You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be : taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but : fortunately, I’m not. : : If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. Depends on the houseboat, doesn’t it?  For shoal water cruising, a smaller houseboat, with less draft, would be far more appropriate than many of the offshore keelboats currently pussyfooting around the banks. Even a craft as large as Horace’s houseboat would be vastly preferable to a similar sized keelboat, if one wanted to follow the barrier reef down Andros Is. On the other hand, a craft as well-powered as Horace’s houseboat shouldn’t have problems finding an appropriate window of time, in which to cross the Straits of Florida safely. He’ll probably have greater problems finding a mooring at port of entry (grin). If I did it, I’d want a smaller boat with less than 2′ of draft, even if it were substantially slower.  But hell, if you’ve got the boat, and the desire (and the money)… Go for it, Horace! It should be a real adventure! Good Cruising, —      Bob Martin

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The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. YOu should keep that nice houseboat in sheltered waters.  And there are plenty of sheltered waters that are perfect for you.  How about the ICW from New England to Fla?  How about the Erie Canal, the nicest fresh water cruise on the planet?  How about the Mighty Mississipp? Good Luck. Jim Md.

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket.

There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

There was a rig which moored in Daytona Beach for a while.  On a small river barge type hull was a white frame building with a sign "Marine Research Laboratory" (It allowed anchoring in places where people might otherwise object.)  Around the perimeter of the barge were trailer hitch balls.  The owner supposedly took it to the Bahamas using a "tug" consisting of an open runabout with a large outboard.  He had a short tower frame on the tug with another trailer hitch ball and an A-frame with three female hitchs on the corners.  By repositioning the frame he could pull, push, or run along side.  He did spend some time waiting for just the right weather conditions. I think your houseboat is several cuts above this in surviveability, but yes, the word crazy does come to mind.  Crazy is fine as long as you don’t expect someone else to bail you out. Roger —

Response:

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

I second that!  A houseboat on the Gulf Stream is courting suicide, and there ARE some deep water passages to be made within the archipelago. Don’t do it, especially as a novice. Go, but with a good keel and skeg beneath you.

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

There might be places that you could go through once you are there.  I think a lot of large freight (cars etc) go by local freighters.  That approach should get your boat there. I crossed the Gulf stream with a perfect forcast.  By the time I was 2 hours out, I was seeing the worst continuous conditions that I had ever seen in 30 years of sailing. We are all masters of our vessels despite what anyone says.  I would give this all little thought though. Hans Paabor Rocinante I Scarborough, Ontario With great power comes great responsiblity (Spiderman)

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I mentally swapped the critical specs of your houseboat and was thinking it draws 22” and has 42” of freeboard when I wrote advising you to Go For It! Considering you have almost no spare freeboard and are a bit deeper than I believed, I should qualify my answer: You probably should not go in winter, when the weather is quite changeable (and the forecasts are therefore less reliable). Keeping in mind that safe anchorages may sometimes be 30-40 miles (i.e.four-six hours) apart, if the wind springs up suddenly the resulting sea might be too much for your boat. The Banks can develop a very steep chop. I don’t know how well houseboats drive into head seas but I suspect, not too well. You should find out first-hand before going. Dead calm conditions are, I’m told,  common in late spring and summer (save for the odd hurricane, but that’s another story).  At any rate, take a liferaft or Whaler type dinghy and a handheld VHF. And, of course, insure the vessel. Byron

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. While I have not been to each cay, I have cruised throughout the island nation, from Walker’s Cay on the north to Long Island in the southern region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

Response:

Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ? Thanks Ron Brown

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

In 16 years cruising in the Bahamas, drug running and politicians have been the least of my worries or problems.  They are simply not an issue for the average cruiser, and there are fewer drugs to encounter in the islands than on your average midtown street corner back in the states. Just returned from a fast passage from Ft. Lauderdale to Provo, (T&C), and the only problems encountered were related to the vessel, rather than politics or recreational pharmacy products. Good Sailing, 73,  Sean — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

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Go for it! Weather is key but the crossing from Miami to Gun Cay or Bimini should only take you a few hours (it’s 50nm or thereabouts). You will want to cross during a period of winds <12kts out of a southerly quadrant. You should experience chop no more than a foot or two over an easy swell. We spent a winter cruising the Bahamas in a 36′ sailboat. So long as you pick your weather carefully and hole up in one of the many protected anchorages during frontal passages, you should have no problem. Additionally, your shoal draft will open up many anchorages denied sailboats. So you should be able to avoid any unpleasantness. I would urge you to buy a short-wave receiver like the Grundig Yacht Boy 400 to get USCG weathercasts on NMN and to tune into the Bahamas marine net, as well as the big picture weather outlook from "Herb" on 12.359 at 2000 UCT. You may have to be very patient to get favorable conditions for operating in the NW Providence Channel; if it’s wintertime, you probably don’t want to operate in the northern half of the Bahamas (Abacos) as they get some very nasty weather indeed. Good luck! Byron Westerly ketch "Vela"

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Question:

T, Thanks for your thoughts regarding Mr. W. As I didn’t feel the need to expound on all of the details regarding this (minor) incident, I did mull over those issues that you mentioned.  It turns out that he was there when his talk was scheduled and our group did see him about an hour before his casting demo.  The floor manager is the person to pass along the info about his leaving and he was none to pleased.   Let’s just let put this one to bed and get back to fishing, which is the real reason for all of this drivel, Mad Dog

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I just got back from the San Francisco International Fly-Fishing Expo.  It was a great show with one notable exception.  Jose Wejebe chose to stand up the audience at a talk on salt water flyfishing and then to add insult to injury he left for Florida before his casting demo, again shortchanging showgoers who wanted to see him. A Sage rep filled in for him at the last moment and I credit the rep for doing the right thing. So much for Jose, just another big ego with no real knowledge of who makes celebrities exist at all… Mad Dog

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I just got back from the San Francisco International Fly-Fishing Expo.  It was a great show with one notable exception.  Jose Wejebe chose to stand up the audience at a talk on salt water flyfishing and then to add insult to injury he left for Florida before his casting demo, again shortchanging showgoers who wanted to see him. A Sage rep filled in for him at the last moment and I credit the rep for doing the right thing. So much for Jose, just another big ego with no real knowledge of who makes celebrities exist at all.

Don: I hold no brief for big ego celebrities, and think that the whole popularity of celebrity sportsman or celebrity whatevers is a one of the more distasteful aspects of our society (that is, for those who seek out such celebritydom) but don’t you think you might be jumping to conclusions based on one incident? I suspect Jose has family, friends, a life, etc., and for all that isn’t it possible a family member was ill, his house caught fire, his daughter was hit by a car, etc.? You might be right implying that it was no such thing, on the other hand, you might be wrong, and really smearing a decent fellow. Saw a quote once: "An intellectual is someone who’s mind watches itself." Seems to me in this case such watching might lead to using  a little imagination about what might have called Jose away before slamming the guy. At any rate…. T.

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Question:

 going to the hiawasse Nov 1 for the weekend and would like some info on what to tie up and how the fishing is this time of year? please e mail me thank you, Kent K. Anderson

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 going to the hiawasse

Are you asking about the Hiwassee in southeastern Tennessee? If so, maybe I can give you some info. Dave — Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides page http://www.olfart.com

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 going to the hiawasse Nov 1 for the weekend and would like some info on what to tie up and how the fishing is this time of year? please e mail me thank you, Kent K. Anderson

Kent: You might find something on LJ Decuir’s page: http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html —Rich

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Question:

How do you decide where to fish? (I’m talking about stream flyfishing). It is mainly by checking maps…word of mouth…roaming around until somebody yells at you? Or is public land open to those with a license?

Jeff,  If it’s fenced, or obviously private property, get permission. It’s a common courtesy that more sportsmen could afford to practice.   Often, the owners are so overwhelmed that a member of ‘the public’ is courteous enough to ask permission that they deed the land to you and volunteer to build a house for you at the water’s edge. ‘Course, other times, they just start shooting! :^) Charley

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A couple of friends are helping me into this sport, but I have a question about stream access I’m still a bit uncomfortable with…Some people seem to be very bold about entering a new stream, and some stick to obviously marked recreation areas. How do you decide where to fish? (I’m talking about stream flyfishing). It is mainly by checking maps…word of mouth…roaming around until somebody yells at you? Or is public land open to those with a license?

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How do you decide where to fish? (I’m talking about stream flyfishing). It is mainly by checking maps…word of mouth…roaming around until somebody yells at you? Or is public land open to those with a license?

Well-organised states (i.e. not all) print basic legal information about access in the booklet distributed free with fishing licences. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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How do you decide where to fish? (I’m talking about stream flyfishing). It is mainly by checking maps…word of mouth…roaming around until somebody yells at you? Or is public land open to those with a license?

This is really easy Jeff.  The more signs there are threatening castration for trespassing, the better and more exciting the fishing will be. Tim Walker

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That attitude Tim is what causes property owners to POST property. Mike

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Question:

Fly fishing for Bass on the Kanawha River near Charleston, West Virginia is a trip.. Something not for the typical Fisherman. Now the water is up and very muddy, but when it go back down, I’ll let everyone know how the Fishing is…. Misha

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very muddy, but when it go back down, I’ll let everyone know how the Fishing is….

Yes please!  I especially like that strech just before Rt. 60 goes up into the mountains.  (would that be Gauly Bridge? ) Bob

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Question:

I will be going to the the Gulf Coast of Florida (Fort Myers area, Captiva Island) to do some fishing in about a month and am looking for a good guide for some light tackle fly fishing.   Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.                                                         —Ken Ross

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I will be going to the the Gulf Coast of Florida (Fort Myers area, Captiva Island) to do some fishing in about a month and am looking for a good guide for some light tackle fly fishing.   Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Call Dale Houchin 813-277-9409 Captain of the "Grand Slam" ….Light spinning and Fly If he is booked he can recommend someone

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If you go to Clearwater area (Homassassa Springs) Contact Captain Earl well but he worked hard trying to put me onto fish.  American Angler had article on redfish in July-October ‘88 issue if you can get your hands on it. Thats where I got Earls name. Its a beautiful area – and it’s Tarpon time! Good Luck IBFISHN (Rodney Bauch)

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