Question:

Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

Response:

Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

Don’t miss the Great Ocean Road. http://www.greatoceanroad.org/ My kids love the Adventure Playground in Warrnambool. Daniel — Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia Visiting Australia FAQ http://www.custard.net.au/australia/

Response:

Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

That’s plenty of time.  As Daniel mentioned, don’t miss the Great Ocean Road.  You should also perhaps start by taking a run through the Flinders Ranges, perhaps as far up as Wilpena Pound.  A lot of people bag on Port Augusta but I quite like the place and there are some things that would be of interest to the kiddies – the Wadlata centre is pretty good (although the souvis are pretty pricey and poor value) and the Arid Lands Botanic Centre (hope I have that name right) is worth a squint if you’re into that sort of thing.  Spencer Gulf has some great sailing and fishing (check what’s in season, I’ve not been in December, yet).  The French Hot Bread place on Commercial St. is the best in the country. From there, I would head back down and across, taking the G.O.R.; then go up into the goldfields (Ballarat, Bendigo) which have theme areas and rebuilt "old time" streets, etc. which the kids should enjoy. Finally, keep a few days for each city.  I’m not normally a city person, but Adelaide does have some charms which take some time to grow on you (once you get used to all the churches).  Take a tram to Glenelg and spend some time on the beach (hopefully all that construction is finished by now) and be sure to take in the central market just off King William Square (at the other end of the tram).  With any luck (does anyone know?  I’m about a year out of date) the Don Bradman display will still be on in one of the buildings (library?) on North Tce. As for Melbourne, I haven’t spent enough time there yet to be knowledgeable about what’s the best use of time/best interest to kids but there will be lots.  It’s quite a charming city.  I’ll leave that to the natives. HTH

Response:

Hi if you go to see the litle penguins at Phillip Island try to get a night at AMAZING THINGS for the kids it is not spectacular but like i said it is good for the kids. Walter from Belgium — Swagmanneke( walter caremans) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

Response:

in message As for Melbourne, I haven’t spent enough time there yet to be knowledgeable about what’s the best use of time/best interest to kids but there will be lots.  It’s quite a charming city.  I’ll leave that to the natives.

Depends what they like. Off the top of my head… – tram rides (especially if you don’t have trams in your part of the world) – museum and Scienceworks http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/ – Puffing Billy steam train http://www.puffingbilly.com.au/ – penguins at Phillip Island http://www.penguins.org.au/ – Healesville sanctuary (native animals) and Melbourne Zoo http://www.zoo.org.au/ and plenty of parks and gardens to explore. Try browsing around http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/ Daniel — Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia Visiting Australia FAQ http://www.custard.net.au/australia/

Response:

Take your time on the Great Ocean Road.  It is a great view but you need time to enjoy it,  Don’t miss the twelve Apostles.   If you have time, check out Phillips Island and the penguin parade.  Phillips Island is on the opposite side of Melbourne from Adelaide. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices. That’s plenty of time.  As Daniel mentioned, don’t miss the Great Ocean Road.  You should also perhaps start by taking a run through the Flinders Ranges, perhaps as far up as Wilpena Pound.  A lot of people bag on Port Augusta but I quite like the place and there are some things that would be of interest to the kiddies – the Wadlata centre is pretty good (although the souvis are pretty pricey and poor value) and the Arid Lands Botanic Centre (hope I have that name right) is worth a squint if you’re into that sort of thing.  Spencer Gulf has some great sailing and fishing (check what’s in season, I’ve not been in December, yet).  The French Hot Bread place on Commercial St. is the best in the country. From there, I would head back down and across, taking the G.O.R.; then go up into the goldfields (Ballarat, Bendigo) which have theme areas and rebuilt "old time" streets, etc. which the kids should enjoy. Finally, keep a few days for each city.  I’m not normally a city person, but Adelaide does have some charms which take some time to grow on you (once you get used to all the churches).  Take a tram to Glenelg and spend some time on the beach (hopefully all that construction is finished by now) and be sure to take in the central market just off King William Square (at the other end of the tram).  With any luck (does anyone know?  I’m about a year out of date) the Don Bradman display will still be on in one of the buildings (library?) on North Tce. As for Melbourne, I haven’t spent enough time there yet to be knowledgeable about what’s the best use of time/best interest to kids but there will be lots.  It’s quite a charming city.  I’ll leave that to the natives. HTH

Response:

Question:

As a Corporate Pilot we regularly tip the line guys & gals who give us good service….  I don’t think I have ever had anyone turn down the cash….  On the other hand if service is mediocre or poor a tip is out of the question…. Mark Captain – Falcon 50EX / Falcon 900EX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, no. I never thought about that. I’ve been flying for several years and I never thought about tipping them. I do try to buy gas unless their tie down fee is high in which case I just grumble to myself and leave. I’ve had some line guys do nice things too like… 1) Run out in the rain to open the door before I get to the plane. 2) Run out and push the heavy Debonair back for me (usually also in the rain)… 3) Give me a ride into town. Usually it seems that the line guys who do nice stuff enjoy the planes and being around them. The guys who are only doing it for a job don’t bother. They are usually so friendly I might feel strange handing them a couple bucks. Kind of like tipping a friend, it might feel petty. But them again, perhaps I’ve been missing it…. So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much? —  Southwest Fisheries Science Center  P.O. Box 271  La Jolla, CA 92038  858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX)  "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t   even know that WAS a job!"        - George Costanza  "Get off the cross, we need   the wood."        - Tori Amos Before you buy.

Response:

Urine my sights now pal!  ;)

Hey, I didn’t mean to piss you off! — Alex Transpose first two letters of return address to reply by email.

Response:

Urine my sights now pal!  ;) Hey, I didn’t mean to piss you off!

Sorry, it just leaked out of me.  But, that’s all water under the bridge.  Next time I’ll be a bit more a-comode-ating. —  Southwest Fisheries Science Center  P.O. Box 271  La Jolla, CA 92038  858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX)  "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t   even know that WAS a job!"        - George Costanza  "Get off the cross, we need   the wood."        - Tori Amos

Response:

Can I offer chocolate chip cookies instead of cash?

Response:

While we never tip our line guys here in Iowa City (the one time I tried, they turned me down), we DO bring a dozen fresh donuts to the FBO every Sunday morning. And there is ALWAYS a cold one in our fridge in our hangar for them. — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much? —  Southwest Fisheries Science Center  P.O. Box 271  La Jolla, CA 92038  858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX)  "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t   even know that WAS a job!"        - George Costanza  "Get off the cross, we need   the wood."        - Tori Amos

Response:

So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much?            ^^^^^ Well, if they are taking you there for dialysis, I think a tip is definitely in order! <g

Urine my sights now pal!  ;) —  Southwest Fisheries Science Center  P.O. Box 271  La Jolla, CA 92038  858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX)  "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t   even know that WAS a job!"        - George Costanza  "Get off the cross, we need   the wood."        - Tori Amos

Response:

: Having been a former lineboy, believe me they will get over it! If you : still feel awkward, offer to take them for an airplane ride. By the time I : was old enough to legaly solo, I had stick time in 14 different types of : aircraft including Beech 18’s, 450hp Stearman, Pitts, Baron, turbo & : retract’s, all the Cessnas and Pipers, etc. I’ve taken all the line guys at SPX flying in the C140 (even on cross countries). One of the line guys at SPX just happens to be my Cessna 140 partner as well! (I can’t really call him a lineboy – he is married and four years older than me <g) — Dylan Smith, Houston TX. Flying: http://www.alioth.net/flying Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Response:

I never thought of it like that. That’s a really good insight, thanks for the post. Next time I’m over there (in the USA) I’m going to make sure I have some dollar bills on me. You’ve made me feel really guilty for not tipping the guy at Gainesville now! They put a red carpet out for me, and gave me a lift to the FBO in a golf buggy. I suppose that’s just me being a tight Brit (tipping is much rarer here than it is in the US). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Carrying a stack of one dollar bills in my shirt pocket is just as important to me as having current approach plates, always ready to reward the guys who help me out.

Response:

1) Run out in the rain to open the door before I get to the plane. 2) Run out and push the heavy Debonair back for me (usually also in the rain)…

sounds like you need a high wing <gd&r — Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Response:

So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much?

           ^^^^^ Well, if they are taking you there for dialysis, I think a tip is definitely in order! <g — Alex Transpose first two letters of return address to reply by email.

Response:

HAHA… I love it!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much?                ^^^^^ Well, if they are taking you there for dialysis, I think a tip is definitely in order! <g — Alex Transpose first two letters of return address to reply by email.

Response:

Oh, no. I never thought about that. I’ve been flying for several years and I never thought about tipping them.

Here we go again. You tip the waiters at any restraunt that doesn’t have a drive thru window, don’t you? Why wouldn’t you tip a line boy that services your aircraft that costs as much as a house? You fly out to the Bahamas and tip the crew of your chartered fishing boat handsomely, and they are just going to snort it up their nose that night. I have been on all sides of this spectrum from being the lineboy at a flight school/FBO to now being the owner/operator of a high performance aircraft (Ain’t America Great!?!?) I remember the few dozen times I was tipped (once by an aircraft thief!) when I was a lineboy. I made sure that the guys (and girl) who tipped me had their windshields washed, the ant’s nests around their tiedown spots were destroyed, if they were having a hard time starting their engine, I would get the GPU ready BEFORE they killed their battery… [snip] They are usually so friendly I might feel strange handing them a couple bucks. Kind of like tipping a friend, it might feel petty. But them again, perhaps I’ve been missing it….

[snip] Having been a former lineboy, believe me they will get over it! If you still feel awkward, offer to take them for an airplane ride. By the time I was old enough to legaly solo, I had stick time in 14 different types of aircraft including Beech 18’s, 450hp Stearman, Pitts, Baron, turbo & retract’s, all the Cessnas and Pipers, etc. Times to tip the lineboy: When he fuels the airplane and doesn’t chip the paint or spill fuel on your plane. When they give you a ride to the FBO office when you have been parked out in the boondocks. When they unload your bags from the plane while you are streching your legs after a long flight. When they run out to your plane in hurricane force wind and rain with an umbrella so _YOU_ and your passengers don’t get wet. When they tow your airplane from an area that is flooded up to the axials to a high and dry parking spot during/after a rain storm so _YOUR_ shoes don’t get soaked. Carrying a stack of one dollar bills in my shirt pocket is just as important to me as having current approach plates, always ready to reward the guys who help me out. Obligitory pilot joke: What is the difference between a pilot and a canoe?   Sometimes a canoe will tip. — dan<atlynxtel.com Spam Bait: Honk If You’ve Never Seen An Uzi Fired From A Car Window

Response:

So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much? —  Southwest Fisheries Science Center  P.O. Box 271  La Jolla, CA 92038  858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX)  "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t   even know that WAS a job!"        - George Costanza  "Get off the cross, we need   the wood."        - Tori Amos

Response:

Oh, no. I never thought about that. I’ve been flying for several years and I never thought about tipping them. I do try to buy gas unless their tie down fee is high in which case I just grumble to myself and leave. I’ve had some line guys do nice things too like… 1) Run out in the rain to open the door before I get to the plane. 2) Run out and push the heavy Debonair back for me (usually also in the rain)… 3) Give me a ride into town. Usually it seems that the line guys who do nice stuff enjoy the planes and being around them. The guys who are only doing it for a job don’t bother. They are usually so friendly I might feel strange handing them a couple bucks. Kind of like tipping a friend, it might feel petty. But them again, perhaps I’ve been missing it…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what’s the consensus on tipping line-guys/gals?  Is it different if they chock/chain and fuel you versus giving you a ride to the FBO, main terminal, renal place, etc.?  If you do, how much? —  Southwest Fisheries Science Center  P.O. Box 271  La Jolla, CA 92038  858-546-7072, 7003 (FAX)  "Marine Biologist?!…I didn’t   even know that WAS a job!"        - George Costanza  "Get off the cross, we need   the wood."        - Tori Amos

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

On the subject of trolling, I posted a rather obviously titled post last week, in which I described trollers using a fishing analogy. They are in it to see what they can catch – they like seeing how many people they can get to respond or get annoyed. The sad things is that the trolls that seem to catch all the attention are the ones that are about as subtle as dynamite fishing. It can be quite enjoyable to follow a troll thread if it started as fly-fishing and is cuningly crafted, but that is not usually the case – people continue to chase the sticks of dynamite that float down through the pond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…..I don’t necessarily advocate reporting obvious trolls, as generally they will get bored and move on independently (as long as people tend to ignore them). People who stay for the sole purpose of harassing individual members of a group, or who engage in activities counter to the charter or FAQ (if existent) are fair game for anyone, though. You reap what you sow, and that sort of thing. —   Annette http://www.technogirl.net

Response:

did i say you can’t have an opinion? where did you see that in my comment? besides your off topic

off topic as it is – the debates about who – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – should say what are the longest threads on the NG – is it a case of talk one idea, do another – by the way – the net is not private, nor is it free – and the stupidity that surrounds the topic of what can  and can’t be said, is not much different than the constant nikon, minolta pentax abusiveness and brand loyalty name calling Carl, Complaining about threads that are seen to be off topic is part of the debate. Just as people on rec.photo.equipment.35mm can use the forum to complain about each other, so may others point to the fact that the NG’s main aim (in their minds) is to discuss 35mm equipment. I am not trying to exercise censorship but am exercising my right to an opinion. I cannot and would not want to stop this NG from evolving into rec.photo.bickering if that’s what people want. But surely I am allowed to have my say in the development. PT

Response:

i find it interesting that – off topic as it is – the debates about who should say what are the longest threads on the NG – is it a case of talk one idea, do another – by the way – the net is not private, nor is it free – and the stupidity that surrounds the topic of what can  and can’t be said, is not much different than the constant nikon, minolta pentax abusiveness and brand loyalty name calling

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

Response:

should say what are the longest threads on the NG – is it a case of talk one idea, do another – by the way – the net is not private, nor is it free – and the stupidity that surrounds the topic of what can  and can’t be said, is not much different than the constant nikon, minolta pentax abusiveness and brand loyalty name calling

Carl, Complaining about threads that are seen to be off topic is part of the debate. Just as people on rec.photo.equipment.35mm can use the forum to complain about each other, so may others point to the fact that the NG’s main aim (in their minds) is to discuss 35mm equipment. I am not trying to exercise censorship but am exercising my right to an opinion. I cannot and would not want to stop this NG from evolving into rec.photo.bickering if that’s what people want. But surely I am allowed to have my say in the development. PT

Response:

You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship.

Are you comparing your private property with the usenet? There are private email lists. You can create one anytime you like. Just go to topica.com or onelist.com. Then it will be all yours and you will be the dictator. But here, you are not- this is not your private property. And of course there are moderated lists. This is not.

Response:

PLONK !!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity. Neil — There’s a disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must  have misused the term "prime lens" again. Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price. — Joe  Zorzin

Response:

Joseph Zorzin skrev: Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity.

It is not that simple. Freedom of speech does not mean the right to cause other people costs, for example. SpeedOfDarkness type of sustained personal attacks would *never* happen in the free press, nor would a magazine feel that it was his right to get a free page now and then to display his message. I don’t belive radio stations or TV channels would think they was obliged to send his rants either. My problem (a very small problem, mostly of principal nature, not practical) is that I can’t choose to not listen, that is,  I pay the cost of conveying the message, not SOD – and I have no real control over that cost. This is a Internet type of problem that wasn’t foreseen by the founding fathers, likely. I mean, what would you like to pay for your photo magazine page by page, not knowing if the next page is reasonably on topic or just a advertisment or a lunatic personal vendetta ? The ‘Net is remarkably anarchistic and "free", but there are conventions that better be followed anyway. — Anders Svensson

Response:

Steve skrev: Am I missing something here?  Since when is the Internet "private property?"

It is the combined property of those owning the infrastructure, and those who use it. Anarchy’s positive side is that anything can be tried once, the backside is that the sanctions can be weird, unusual and painful as they are not balanced by legislative and judicial forces. — Anders Svensson

Response:

Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people,

No. Freedom of speech is not about annoying people, and just repeating the same insults day after day, week after week, flooding the newsgroup with that juvenile crap, has nothing to do with freedom of speech. within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything.

Try it and see. Depending on the city, you may or may not be able to get away with that. There are laws against making a nuisance of yourself. Other people have rights too, including the right not to be pestered continuously by someone who is just trying to bother them. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment.

No, it is not. You are trivializing an important right if you think it is there to enable people to annoy other people. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage.

How do you know? Are you authorized to decide what does or does not hurt or damage other people? When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity.

On the contrary, your post shows yours. It is only the very juvenile who believe people have some "right" to annoy other people. Neil — There’s a terrible disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must be misusing the term "prime lens" again.

Response:

Am I missing something here?  Since when is the Internet "private property?" But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship.

The servers, man, the servers all belong to somebody.  Many are the property of public universities–and those do have the right to limit what is stored on them.  Others are wholly private, owned by companies or private universities in most cases.  Some others are owned by non- US governments that don’t have the First Amendment. — Kirk "Nothing is foolproof. Fools are too ingenious" -RAH <I really am at home if you want to reply by e-mail

Response:

You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything.

But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship. — Kirk "Nothing is foolproof. Fools are too ingenious" -RAH <I really am at home if you want to reply by e-mail

Response:

Am I missing something here?  Since when is the Internet "private property?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity.

That isn’t really the point. The "first amendment" argument implies that everyone must by necessity be in the US, which is ridiculous. The Internet is global. The only rules that matter are the ones put in place by an individual’s provider (your comment "within some limits"), and they are not bound by any first amendment claims (even US providers), since they are private entities.  Every ISP has an acceptable use policy that prohibits certain types of acitivites. Earthlink has an AUP which includes the following: (Under items that constitute a violation of Eartlink’s AUP) d. Harassment. Using the Services to transmit any material (by email, uploading, posting, or otherwise) that harasses another. … m. News. EarthLink Members should use their best judgment when posting to any newsgroup. Many groups have charters, published guidelines, FAQs, or "community standards" describing what is and is not considered appropriate. Usenet can be a valuable resource if used properly. The continued posting of off-topic articles is prohibited. Commercial advertisements are off-topic in most newsgroups, especially regional groups not specifically named for such. The presence of such articles in a group is not indicative of the group’s "intended" use. Please familiarize yourself with basic USENET netiquette before posting to a newsgroup. I don’t necessarily advocate reporting obvious trolls, as generally they will get bored and move on independently (as long as people tend to ignore them). People who stay for the sole purpose of harassing individual members of a group, or who engage in activities counter to the charter or FAQ (if existent) are fair game for anyone, though. You reap what you sow, and that sort of thing. —   Annette http://www.technogirl.net

Response:

Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech."

Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity. Neil — There’s a disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must  have misused the term "prime lens" again. Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price.

– Joe  Zorzin

Response:

Most of the questionable material is not offensive, but it can be annoying. However,  I don’t think that a sender’s ISP would have any basis to intervene.

It should be in the ISP’s terms of service, but responsible providers will not tolerate their members spamming anyone, including newsgroups, and especially not with abusive and offensive off-topic posts. One person’s spam is another person’s treat and I get nervous about wholesale restriction of these posts. That is not in the internet spirit either. The best solution: If the thread is annoying to you, don’t read it.

The offender in this case has already gone far beyond what any ISP should tolerate. The fact that he now has taken to changing his name here for the express purpose of preventing annoyed users from filtering him out, puts him well beyond the bounds of what anyone should be willing to tolerate. Neil

Response:

Maybe we should rename the NG. Something like rec.character.assasination? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

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Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price.

Response:

Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Neil — There’s a disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must  have misused the term "prime lens" again.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price.

Response:

I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

Response:

Most of the questionable material is not offensive, but it can be annoying. However,  I don’t think that a sender’s ISP would have any basis to intervene. One person’s spam is another person’s treat and I get nervous about wholesale restriction of these posts. That is not in the internet spirit either. The best solution: If the thread is annoying to you, don’t read it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, there is something offended individuals can do.  Sorry about the fact that I am posting this three times on different threads, but all the threads deal with the same problem of flaming and spamming going on in this newsgroup.  I wanted to be sure people know that abuse addresses exist for a reason, and should be used when they really need to be.  Clearly, this NG has been abused, thus, people should make official complaints about it.  Posting "please stop" will not stop these individuals.  Writing their ISP might, however. Actually, the complaint email address you mention is not private or secretive. If you look at the full headers for any of speed’s posts, you will find that the really want to lodge a complaint, you must forward copies of his offending threads WITH FULL HEADERS to the abuse email address you mentioned.  Only if you do this will Earthlink be able to find out exactly who he is and how to stop him — if they care, which it is possible they won’t.  Earthlink is a very large organization, and they will not likely disable his account with only one complaint.  It will require numerous emails to Earthlink from others like you who have been spammed and flamed by this individual.  Without the full headers, however, Earthlink will have no idea who he is.  You’ve made a good first step, however.  I am also sending this to another newsgroup to which he has offended as well. I think it is a real shame that individuals like "speed of darkness" have so much time on their hands to bring down the quality of the internet and the flow of free communication and speech.  And if they do have that much time, that they choose to spend it the way they do.  Unfortunately, there is little that we can do about it but complain. Truthfully, the only way to really deal with it, other than lodging complaints to the organization he comes from, is to just ignore his posts.  He replies when you reply, and that’s how these unending threads of flaming and spamming get started.  True, he is to blame largely for this whole mess, but we dont’ have to play along with it. I encourage anyone who has been seriously bothered by his posts to send a Earthlink will take care of it, as it is in their hands. Andrew Stoeckley I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

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Question:

Maybe a foolish question but i wonder if there are river maps available? The US Corps of Engineers publishes inexpensive river charts for the navigable river systems under their control. Most areas also have cruising guides available. — Skipper

Depending upon which Corps of Engineers Region you’re in you can get maps from http://www.usace.army.mil/         —Hutch * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hello, I live on Crooked River in SE Georgia. I found a map (of sorts) at a Flyfishing shop. It isn’t "exact" and at least in the case of this river, it changes somewhat because of the flow of the river – we have tides because of being so close to the ocean – and there is continual changes in sand bars, etc. But the chart is certainly better than nothing and gives good views of major inlets, marshes, etc. So you might want to check out some Flyfishing shops in your area. Regards, liz Maybe a foolish question but i wonder if there are river maps available? The US Corps of Engineers publishes inexpensive river charts for the navigable river systems under their control. Most areas also have cruising guides available. — Skipper

Before you buy.

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Maybe a foolish question but i wonder if there are river maps available?

The US Corps of Engineers publishes inexpensive river charts for the navigable river systems under their control. Most areas also have cruising guides available. — Skipper

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Question:

Matt, This isn’t a "trip report" – this is a "day in the life report" and I hate you for it! Stop posting cruel things like this. -Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I moved into a new house last month that has a trout stream running thruogh the backyard. Seeing as how work is slow (like I just said there’s a trout stream in the backyard) and my truck’s broken down (really too bad), I’ve had lots of time to get familiar with my new home waters. Today proved to be one of the finest days yet. I’ve been working on fishing the entire thing and today I managed to fish one of the branches all the way to its source. The crest of the blue ridge mtns. (that’s the only clue you’ll get).Today, I found brookie heaven. The weather was perfect, the water is finally back to normal and the fish wouldn’t leave my fly alone. I watched more than one fish strike at the fly three times before gitting a hold on it. One after another we hauled em. I was using a big fly (sz. 12 wooly bugger) so the little guys were having a hard time getting a grip on it. This was fine though, the fun is in the strike. I managed to land about 5 or 6 before pangs of hunger drove me home. I’ve gotta start remembering to bring along a snack.Tomorrow I’m fishing a different branch too see if it might be a "second heaven". I’ll keep you posted…P.S. Sorry to hear you didn’t catch any fish walt. Better luck next time

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believer in stocked trout breakfasts with eggs over easy, sourdough toast, French Market Coffee, and buttermilk pancakes, WITH maple syrup.

Yikes! I guess that explains your "Frequent Cardiac Surgery Card", George! ;^) /daytripper

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believer in stocked trout breakfasts with eggs over easy, sourdough toast, French Market Coffee, and buttermilk pancakes, WITH maple syrup.

George, I thought you told me you were diebetic.  (?) All those carbs AND sugar! Dave

Response:

I moved into a new house last month that has a trout stream running thruogh the backyard. Seeing as how work is slow (like I just said there’s a trout stream in the backyard) and my truck’s broken down (really too bad), I’ve had lots of time to get familiar with my new home waters. Today proved to be one of the finest days yet. I’ve been working on fishing the entire thing and today I managed to fish one of the branches all the way to its source. The crest of the blue ridge mtns. (that’s the only clue you’ll get). Today, I found brookie heaven. The weather was perfect, the water is finally back to normal and the fish wouldn’t leave my fly alone. I watched more than one fish strike at the fly three times before gitting a hold on it. One after another we hauled em. I was using a big fly (sz. 12 wooly bugger) so the little guys were having a hard time getting a grip on it. This was fine though, the fun is in the strike. I managed to land about 5 or 6 before pangs of hunger drove me home. I’ve gotta start remembering to bring along a snack. Tomorrow I’m fishing a different branch too see if it might be a "second heaven". I’ll keep you posted… P.S. Sorry to hear you didn’t catch any fish walt. Better luck next time

Response:

Wonderful little stream near Boone.  Fish it often and enjoy the Brookies as well as some of the local company.  Glad you like it too.  See you there! Wayne To fish is human…to release divine.     I moved into a new house last month that has a trout stream running thruogh the backyard. Seeing as how work is slow (like I just said there’s a trout stream in the backyard) and my truck’s broken down (really too bad), I’ve had lots of time to get familiar with my new home waters. Today proved to be one of the finest days yet. I’ve been working on fishing the entire thing and today I managed to fish one of the branches all the way to its source. The crest of the blue ridge mtns. (that’s the only clue you’ll get).     Today, I found brookie heaven. The weather was perfect, the water is finally back to normal and the fish wouldn’t leave my fly alone. I watched more than one fish strike at the fly three times before gitting a hold on it. One after another we hauled em. I was using a big fly (sz. 12 wooly bugger) so the little guys were having a hard time getting a grip on it. This was fine though, the fun is in the strike. I managed to land about 5 or 6 before pangs of hunger drove me home. I’ve gotta start remembering to bring along a snack.     Tomorrow I’m fishing a different branch too see if it might be a "second heaven". I’ll keep you posted…     P.S. Sorry to hear you didn’t catch any fish walt. Better luck next time

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P.S. Sorry to hear you didn’t catch any fish walt. Better luck next time

your condolences are most welcome, guess they couldn’t see my size 20 dry in all that big moving water. that’s ok….. i probably should have tied on an "ollie" like you did. for gods sake, it’s january, too early for dries. waldo

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Walt, you might want to go smaller next time. The sulphurs won’t be hatching for months;) Try a 28 midge, they were nailing them last week. You were fishing the stocked section, right? <grin I heard those fish were easy to    -**** Posted from remarQ, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.remarq.com/ – Host to the the World’s Discussions & Usenet

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Walt, you might want to go smaller next time. The sulphurs won’t be hatching for months;) Try a 28 midge, they were nailing them last week. You were fishing the stocked section, right? <grin I heard those fish were easy to    -**** Posted from remarQ, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****- http://www.remarq.com/ – Host to the the World’s Discussions & Usenet

believer in stocked trout breakfasts with eggs over easy, sourdough toast, French Market Coffee, and buttermilk pancakes, WITH maple syrup.

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   Part 1.1       Type: Plain Text (text/plain)               Encoding: quoted-printable

Matt, That post just shows what a low down bum you really are!  Here’s the rest of the world, slaving away at the daily grind and YOU are fishing – in the backyard no less!!! Have you NO shame?! Tom — Tom Brown The Signal Group Wake Forest, NC "If you’re not the lead dog, the view never changes."

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Md and Va saltwater licenses are recipocle (sp) — bob D&B Marine http://www.tqci.net/~dbmarine 888-535-BOAT Big Gunpowder Falls River in Maryland has some very nice Browns and Rainbows.  Lots of catch and release stretches.  There is a good fly shop in Monkton I will be relocating to the Washington, DC area next month and I would love to have any fishing info for the area (including Chesapeake Bay).  Bait shops for advice, public fishing areas, tackle choices, where to get a fishing license for Virginia/Maryland (do I need both states and fresh and saltwater?), time of year to catch certain fish.  I’ll take anything related please respond via e-mail Barry

I think you will find this helpful… <http://www.gmu.edu/bios/bay/links.htm

Response:

Big Gunpowder Falls River in Maryland has some very nice Browns and Rainbows.  Lots of catch and release stretches.  There is a good fly shop in Monkton

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I will be relocating to the Washington, DC area next month and I would love to have any fishing info for the area (including Chesapeake Bay).  Bait shops for advice, public fishing areas, tackle choices, where to get a fishing license for Virginia/Maryland (do I need both states and fresh and saltwater?), time of year to catch certain fish.  I’ll take anything related please respond via e-mail Barry

Response:

Md and Va saltwater licenses are recipocle (sp) — bob D&B Marine http://www.tqci.net/~dbmarine 888-535-BOAT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Big Gunpowder Falls River in Maryland has some very nice Browns and Rainbows.  Lots of catch and release stretches.  There is a good fly shop in Monkton I will be relocating to the Washington, DC area next month and I would love to have any fishing info for the area (including Chesapeake Bay).  Bait shops for advice, public fishing areas, tackle choices, where to get a fishing license for Virginia/Maryland (do I need both states and fresh and saltwater?), time of year to catch certain fish.  I’ll take anything related please respond via e-mail Barry

Response:

I will be relocating to the Washington, DC area next month and I would love to have any fishing info for the area (including Chesapeake Bay).  Bait shops for advice, public fishing areas, tackle choices, where to get a fishing license for Virginia/Maryland (do I need both states and fresh and saltwater?), time of year to catch certain fish.  I’ll take anything related please respond via e-mail Barry

Response:

Check out worldwideangler.com or chesapeakeangler.com different name same site. Good luck

I will be relocating to the Washington, DC area next month and I would love to have any fishing info for the area (including Chesapeake Bay).  Bait shops for advice, public fishing areas, tackle choices, where to get a fishing license for Virginia/Maryland (do I need both states and fresh and saltwater?), time of year to catch certain fish.  I’ll take anything related please respond via e-mail Barry — Flyfish NC                                                   Gordon Churchill http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/3853                                                                    

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Question:

I understand these boats are great for getting around the Texas flats looking for redfish and trout, but I wonder how a SOT kayak would handle the small rivers and lakes of central Texas. Anyone with experience on these craft?

Response:

I bought an Aquaterra Swing last fall and have only fished out of it twice.  On both occasions, however, it has proved to be a very stable craft, quiet, and easy to paddle.  The one drawback is that you will get wet, so it’s much more comfortable in warm weather/water.  Of course, you could wear waders or a wet suit. I have yet to try it in moving water, but would think it would operate quite nicely in moderate flows. Regards,  -William Ivey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I understand these boats are great for getting around the Texas flats looking for redfish and trout, but I wonder how a SOT kayak would handle the small rivers and lakes of central Texas. Anyone with experience on these craft?

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I thought of rigging outriggers to a regular kayak so you could stand while flyfishing if you desired. Anyone ever try this. MichaelSmith

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I understand these boats are great for getting around the Texas flats looking for redfish and trout, but I wonder how a SOT kayak would handle the small rivers and lakes of central Texas. Anyone with experience on these craft?

        I use an SOT for tooling around in the reservoirs and impoundments of central Virginia, and I have a blast.  I can duck into really shallow areas, and can portage the boat and my rod fairly easily.  My only trouble has been the occasional hooking of the bow hardware; it is really tough to pull any flies out without beaching.  However, I feel more stable in the SOT (don’t flame me-that is just a PERSONAL preference, not a condemnation of canoes), so I prefer it to a canoe.  Since SOTs are so responsive to the paddle, almost as much as a traditional kayak, I havesome  problems using mine in moving water and fishing at the same time.  I tend to get wrapped up in one or the other, so I can’t get both done.  However, from my days living in Houston, I remember some of the central Texas rivers like the Guadalupe are relatively slow, like our local river-fed impoundments.  By all means try it; I have a blast with mine. Dan Johnson

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I have been kayaking for several years, and have both sea and whitewater boats.  I often fish from my sea kayak.  As far as SOT’s go, they are the fastest growing segment in kayaking, so if you don’t like what’s out there now, wait until next year.  Best advice is visit the nearest dealer that carries the major brands of SOT’s (Aquaterra, Dagger, Ocean Kayak), and paddle them all — take your gear and see how it fits on and in the boat.  See how stable/unstable it is while casting.  Any good dealer will spend the time with you so you get what you want.   Most likely you will find a short touring boat best for lakes and moving water up to Class II rapids.  Whitewater SOT’s will be too tippy and not track well enough for you to enjoy on lakes, but paddle them anyway — find out for yourself.  You may want to consider a high quality inflatable kayak like AIRE, SOAR, or Northwest River Supplies — packable, durable, responsive, stable as heck.  Good luck.

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Question:

I’m going to try shad fishing this year in Mass.  Any recommendations for flies to tie?   Any other tips would also be appreciated.   _Rich_

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  I’m going to try shad fishing this year in Mass.  Any   recommendations   for flies to tie?   Any other tips would also be appreciated.     _Rich_ Last year at the Merrimack River I had good luck with small clousers.  I can’t honestly say I was trying to catch just shad, but that’s what took the fly.  The most important aspect of this type of fishing is getting the fly down to where the fish are, any fly reasonably close in imitation will work as long as it gets down to the fish.  In a strong current you’re going to need a weighted line such as a Teeny 350, let the current and the line do the work for you. Don

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Last year at the Merrimack River I had good luck with small clousers.  I can’t honestly say I was trying to catch just shad, but that’s what took the fly.  The most important aspect of this type of fishing is getting the fly down to where the fish are, any fly reasonably close in imitation will work as long as it gets down to the fish.  In a strong current you’re going to need a weighted line such as a Teeny 350, let the current and the line do the work for you. Don

I’ve been shad fishing the past two weekends on the Roanoke River in NC and have had the best success with 2-1/0 white/yellow clousers.  Everyone says to go small(6-4), but I did much better with the larger flies.  Granted, these are Hickory shad, but they did seem to prefer the larger fly.  I also had a lot of success with a gold or silver ’spoon’  fly(braided mylar coated with epoxy). The visibility in the Roanoke hasn’t been great, and they really seemed to like the flash.  -William Ivey   Raleigh, NC

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Question:

Hi I live in Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur) and I would really like to go somewhere and do some fly fishing in Malaysia. The problem is that I have not been able to find anything about fly fishing here. It seems like this sport has not arrived here yet. Is there anyone out there who can help me on this. I started fly fishing in Sweden, but moved to Malaysia before I really got the hang of it. So I do need to get starting again. Also, is there a shop where I can buy stuff for tying my own flies here? Thanks for any replies /Bengt Thur

Question:

Greenstone lake, the first that you get to, seems to have a small brook trout population but there are so many others that it’s hardly worth fishing.

One of the funnier things I’ve seen while fishing happened here.  A couple of spin fisherman were fishing Greenstone and one hooked about a 6" brookie.  His buddy got the net, which had a handle about three feet long and a rim about 2 feet in diameter.  It was big enough to net salmon for god’s sake. Well, as he went to lift the trout out of the water, it fell through the webbing on the net.  I got a good chuckle to say the least.

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A friend was in at Saddlebag two weeks ago and said the ground was still fairly soggy…..alot of the High Country won’t be opened up this year at all, as fall/winter is beginning to happen already (last week it got down to 35 deg 3 nights straight at 6870 ft. elevation. As far as fishing, it’s been suprising how few trout are actually surface feeding this year in the Sierra (Ralph Cutter- can you shed some light on this and/or confirm/deny ??).   All I’m able to attribute it to is the lower than customary temperature of the water. There *are* hatches, although they are much later than usual, but the fish seeem to be ignoring them. The few that I’ve kept have been **PACKED** with nymphs, hoppers, ants and beetles, but not alot of "surface bugs". I indicator nymphed and worked a pair of ants (one flying, one hardshell) and picked up a few fish….but certainly nothing to boast about. Tried soft-hackele wets for hours with no takers..upstream, down and across and downstream…..started to curse Dave Huges and Sylvester Nemes below my breath, but decided that I’d save that for my third and likely final attempt at this "old New Style" of flyfishing. Don’t know if it would be worth the effort of canoeing and then trekking farther; I’ve heard Mammoth has been pretty good this year, you may want to give it a go instead!!

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At the end of September I’m thinking of heading up to Saddlebage Lake, canoeing accross and hiking around the Conness Lakes/Glacier are to fish for Goldens.  Has anyone been up there lately or at this time of year.  I know it’ll probabaly be a bit cold since its above 10,000 feet. What flies should I bring?  Nymphs, Caddis, Terresterals?  Any advice would be appreciated.  

I haven’t been up there in a few years but this is one of my favorite areas.  I also used a canoe to get across the lake and  then carried it up on the shore a bit and stashed my oars up by a tree a bit up the trail. Greenstone lake, the first that you get to, seems to have a small brook trout population but there are so many others that it’s hardly worth fishing.  The next lake (Wasco) is a little better and I’ve caught fish of a decent size.  Steelhead lake (the biggest in the basin) has been hit and miss for me.  Cascade lake, and the small lake in between it and Steelhead are both real good.  The shallows at the south end of the lake are teeming with brookies in the evening.  There is another small lake (Towser) that is supposed to be a Golden trout only lake and I’ve caught a couple real small ones in it.  Shamrock lake has been one of the best producers for brookies for me and it’s probably the prettiest in the basin.  To the South of Shamrock as you head up the hill there are a couple of other small lakes that are supposed to be Golden trout lakes but I’ve never found them.  At the top of the hill in the center of the basin is Z-lake.  I have caught more brookies in that lake then any of the other lakes.  Helen Lake and Odell have produced much for me and I believe that Odell is supposed to be a golden trout only lake as well. I haven’t fished Hummingbird but I hear it has a large brookie population, so much so that the fish are stunted. There are three lakes up above the waterfall below the glacier that are worth the hike only because they are so pretty.  The first one is almost a tourquiose color.  Unfortunately I was told that these lakes froze solid a few years ago and have not been restocked.  That was about five years ago so it may have changed. If the fish are hitting the surface I have had the best luck with grey hackle peacocks, grey hackle yellows, Sierra brite dots, and coachmens. If they are not,  various nymphs like GR hares ears, prince nymphs, Birds nests, pheasant tails, and a few emerger patterns all seem to work.   I fished all of these patterns with an ultralight spinning rod and a casting bubble.  For the grey hackles, etc, I filled the bubble half full of water and fished them wet just below the surface with a *very* slow retrieve.   For the nymphs I fill the bubble up all the way and then cast and count down several seconds before begining the retrieve. As is the case with any of the areas in the Sierra you should be prepared for any kind of weather.  I’ve been there twice in September when it has snowed.  One time a friend of mine and I drove up and camped at Tioga lake campground because we arrived too late in the day.  He got up the next morning and went out in my canoe on Tioga lake.  He paddled out about 100′ and decided it was too cold.  He knocked on my camper shell window and said that he had to come in and warm up.  We ended up driving around a bit because the heater wasn’t warming fast enough.  It was probably a good three hours before he felt normal again.  Hypothermia is a very real possibility this time of year and it’s nothing to fool around with.  If we had camped out the night before in the basin like we had planned it could have been *real* serious. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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At the end of September I’m thinking of heading up to Saddlebage Lake, canoeing accross and hiking around the Conness Lakes/Glacier are to fish for Goldens.  Has anyone been up there lately or at this time of year.  I know it’ll probabaly be a bit cold since its above 10,000 feet. What flies should I bring?  Nymphs, Caddis, Terresterals?  Any advice would be appreciated.   "Never get suckered into defending the cost of your fishing habit on a cost per pound basis.  It’ll only embarrass or depress you.  The only measurement that makes sense at all is the cost per cast…So, if you are long on effort and short on results, remember that the more you cast, the cheaper it gets."                                             -Tully Stroud Chris Anderson San Fransicko

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