Question:

A few months back I shared the news about having found another job, after losing one just a few months prior. Things are going pretty well as far as the actual work part goes, not too difficult from a physical standpoint and enough weekends to save my ass before it falls off. The really good news is that I got a fabulous 6 month evaluation (public employment..) and I am now a permanent staff member. In the summer of ‘98 when I fell apart, it never occurred to me that I might be where I am now. After all by the summer of ‘99 , I was barely walking and most days were about 2 hours long. Things just didn’t look all that promising, if you know what I mean. With a lot of adaptation, some pharmaceutical intervention and a little   luck, I was able to crawl through the process of re-training, and then actually staying together long enough to find a job in a crappy job market. Dang. My ms has basically simmered and not boiled over for some time now. I am convinced that copaxone has made a big difference for me, as well as a lot of other stuff. A good marriage, I can still can ride a motorcycle (in fact just got a new one see http://colevalley.net/photos/bikes/03yam/yam.02.jpg), I still can fly-fish, and even go for walks in the park. Not that I haven’t had  few days here and there where I felt like I had been dunked a vat of novacaine and beaten with a dead salmon, but overall I just have to say that I will probably look back on this time of my life as the good old days. Of course things won’t always be this rosy but for now , I will take it. — Jim S

Response:

In <news:wQvTd.599$C47.305@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, jim s said: > Not that I haven’t had  few days here and there where I felt like I > had been dunked a vat of novacaine and beaten with a dead salmon,

Dude… some people would pay good money for treatment like that.  :-)

Response:

Michael wrote: > In <news:wQvTd.599$C47.305@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, > jim s said: >>Not that I haven’t had  few days here and there where I felt like I >>had been dunked a vat of novacaine and beaten with a dead salmon, > Dude… some people would pay good money for treatment like that.  :-)

Don’t most of them live with their elderly mothers, on a lonely highway somewhere south of Austin, Nevada? — Jim Stinnett R1100Rs VTR1000 YZF R1 http://moto-rama,com

Response:

In <news:10wTd.602$C47.216@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, jim s said: > Michael wrote: >> In <news:wQvTd.599$C47.305@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, >> jim s said: >>> Not that I haven’t had  few days here and there where I felt like I >>> had been dunked a vat of novacaine and beaten with a dead salmon, >> Dude… some people would pay good money for treatment like that. > Don’t most of them live with their elderly mothers, on a lonely > highway somewhere south of Austin, Nevada?

They only call those old ladies "mom" for the benefit of police and social workers.

Response:

We are all very happy for you and hope things continue to go well It sounds like good things are happening — may they continue Do not pass any around, but to cover all bases I have included — some cyber smoked steelhead — some cyber salmon jerky — five cyber pounds of dark chocolate because everyone on this newsgroup knows that dark chocolate is healthy for you You can be sure that we all recognize and appreciate where you are at now from where you used to be and everything that goes with it Congratulations — thanks for keeping us informed — may things continue to go well for you we all are all sharing in your good fortune — Larry Rather than building character, adversity tends to reveal it written using voice recognition software "jim s" <elkab…@colevalley.net> wrote > Of course things won’t always be this rosy but for now , I will take it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Jim S

Response:

"jim s" <elkab…@colevalley.net> wrote  I can still can ride a motorcycle > (in fact just got a new one see > http://colevalley.net/photos/bikes/03yam/yam.02.jpg), > Jim S

Jim, youre in far to poor a condition to ride a motorcycle like that, I think you need to hand that over to someone like me who can take care of it for you.  ;^) Thats a sweet looking ride my man.  Nice.  Very nice.  I must have dropped my Sporty 50 times before I finally bought crash-bars for it, and, of course, havent really droped it once since.  Aint that how life goes though? Rob

Response:

hi jim, may the dead-salmon-and-novocaine days be few, and the tires-hitting-the-road days many! continued good fortune, rose

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"Rob Duncan" <robdun…@gbronline.com> wrote in > Thats a sweet looking ride my man.  Nice.  Very nice.  I must have dropped > my Sporty 50 times before I finally bought crash-bars for it, and, of > course, havent really droped it once since.  Aint that how life goes

though? Yeah…what’s up with that? Maybe it’s a karmic insurance policy! vroom. Jim S

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"white.lynx" <white.l…@shaw.ca> wrote in message > Do not pass any around,

but to cover all bases I have included > — some cyber smoked steelhead > — some cyber salmon jerky > — five cyber pounds of dark chocolate because everyone on this newsgroup > knows that dark chocolate is healthy for you > You can be sure that we all recognize and appreciate where you are at now > from where you used to be and everything that goes with it

I love chocolate, enough that it rivals some of the other rather important things, like breathing…:) Jim

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Question:

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.

If the Outback is too small for you, look at the Forester.  It has more room in all ways, but still isn’t a gas hog or road-warrier. — David L. Johnson    __o   | I don’t believe you, you’ve got the whole damn thing all wrong.  _`(,_  | He’s not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays.  –Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson   — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer.

20 PSI is generally too high. Try 15 or even 10 PSI next time and you can probably go anywhere. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

in rec.autos.4×4, Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out.

Down to 20psi? For sand try more like 5-8 psi…. I run 2-3 psi in the snow/sand. ~Brian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot

I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse. — Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse.

  There is a small difference between the AWD system on   cars like the Porsche Turbo, Audi S6, Lamborghini,   Porsche Cayenne, and the considerably less expensive   ones found on lesser vehicles.

Response:

I’ve driven my Jeep Wrangler on the NC outer banks beaches.  It’s actually pretty tough conditions getting over the dune trails.  I saw a Subaru getting pulled out of the deep sand – he was buried up to his frame, and two really big 4wd trucks were having trouble getting him out.  Depending on recent weather, you might have to drive quite a distance through the softest, driest sand you can imagine, with really deep tracks that require good clearance.  On the beach I see mostly 4WD trucks and "normal/large" size SUVs, not the small ones.  You need to lower your tire pressure to 15-10 psi.  Once you clear the really soft sand you can drive easily.  There’s nothing like the outer banks beaches – sometimes you can drive till you can barley see another vehicle, and have a mile of beach all to yourself.  Other times it’s like a parking lot of 4×4s.  Not sure why.  You can also ride a mountain bike along the hard sand at the water’s edge, but the sand and salt are really bad for the bike… Brad — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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This past April I had my GMC Sarfari AWD van on the beaches in Hatteras… deflate the air pressure in your tires to 20psi and off you go!!! Everything fits in, or, or behind the van. — Marty S. Baltimore, MD  USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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James, If I had the money to blow on a new car, I’d probably buy a Honda Element. This seems to meet all of your criteria, and is available in four wheel drive. We (wife and I) have considered buying one but have decided to wait a couple of years for a Hybrid gasoline/ electric vehicle. (Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, and Saturn VUE hybrids will all available within the next couple of years, as will a Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD (a real wallet-buster, no doubt.) Until then, we’re still cramming all of our stuff into our Saturn Wagon! The bikes go on a receiver hitch rack in the back. Dave Wissenbach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

I guess for the beach you need wide tires and 4 wheel drive? I am sure that down around Corpus Christi they have some favorite vehicles? I think I have seen Chevy Suburbans in some articles? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.  Maybe more cargo space than a CRV or RAV 4, but those are quite a bit smaller than average size and still have more legroom. Nice vehicles though if you can fit in them. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Be wary of the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape twins (they are mechanically identical, built by Ford).  They are good vehicles on paper, but have fairly poor reliability and resale value. The Jeep Liberty also has shown poor reliability and resale.  It is more capable off road than the Tribute/Escape but rides rougher, doesn’t drive as nice, is less roomy and gets poorer fuel economy. A well used Toyota 4-runner would be a better vehicle than either the Escape/Tribute or the Liberty are new.  But it is probably more than what you need. Take a long look at a Subaru Outback or Forester.  Also a Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 would probably meet your needs.  The CRV is especially nice for kids as it has a minivan-like passthough to the back seats. The Hyundai Santa Fe is also a nice vehicle and comes with a great warranty. Do your research and be sure to look at total cost of ownership, including resale value and maintenence costs.  You will find Ford, GM, and Chrysler products really struggle there, while Honda is typically the best. Check out this article: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-08-15-carcosts_x.htm The "cute-utes" are not real off road vehicles only if you plan to rock hop with the Jeeps. They should do fine for what you described. If you had any heavy towing to do I would say differently.  It would be silly to get a more capable 4×4 you would rarely if ever need, and you may get annoyed with the "truckyness" that comes with the bigger 4×4s.  I sure do.  Then again, I really don’t know how serious your off-road plans are.  But I’m guessing not as serious as you think. When I was in high school, my dad had a 2-wheel drive 4-cylinder Ranger.  You may be surprised where I took that thing.  It made a fine hunting vehicle. I can tell you with absolute certainty to stay away from Ford Explorers.  I have one and it is the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned.  And it doesn’t even have 60,000 miles on it yet.  The initial price made it seem like a good value.  But it’s been anything but. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof. Barry — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Is it necessary to post again? Well, I’ll reply to a couple other points… we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are

Only if you want one. good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

I’ve never seen a campground or park that requires a real 4×4 to get to the site. The worst I’ve seen is the Winterhawk bluegrass festival, which requires you to get up a big, steep hill; if it’s muddy, 2-wheel drive vehicles have a tough time. Some campgrounds do have rather rough paths, but all that’s required is a little extra ground clearance. we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use.

This is when you’ll use it most, on the road. You should probably make that a priority. road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way..

Compact SUVs, as well as larger ones built on a car platform, are not off-road vehicles, no matter what the manufacturer claims. They can handle grass, the path to the campground, etc; but tough stuff like deep in the woods or in deep sand, you need quite the ballsy off-road pickup (or SUV built on a pickup truck platform). Do you expect to drive on the beach? I’ve only ever seen vehicles allowed on the beach on TV shows like Baywatch; nowhere I’ve been, have I seen vehicles permitted to drive onto the sand, or anywhere out of the parking lot. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE?

The Ford Escape is a car-based SUV. It will do anything spectacular. It probably gives a pretty good ride on the road. how is the Jeep liberty?

Reportedly, the Liberty is okay. Never driven one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess

I don’t drive anything on the beach. For fishing/camping/biking, I drove a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am for 5 years; a 1987 Cadillac Sedan Deville for a couple years before that; and now I drive a full size pickup, specifically, a 2002 GMC Sierra 4×4, extended cab, etc. The Caddy and the Pontiac did fine for all sorts of off-road situations, although I did bend a wheel by going too fast in the Caddy on a very rough trail. People who think a low-slung, 2wd car can’t go off road, either have never done it, or are unskilled off-road drivers. They can’t do really gnarly off road stuff; but car-based SUVs can’t either, except that they can deal with a little bit slipperier conditions and a little bit higher clearance issues. ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget

My GMC Sierra, which does NOT have any sort of off-road package, and has lame-looking road tires, is the most comfortable vehicle I’ve ever driven. The tires, which look lame, provide ample grip in all sorts of snow, mud, etc. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute?

I can’t imagine why not. can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james

– Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

You might want to look at the Suzuki XL-7 (4 wheel drive version).  You could get the third row seat version and still stay close to the upper limit of your price range.  Even an ‘02 model would be good, and most (those sold after August last year) have a transferable 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.  It might be worth looking at. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Question:

I will be going to a family reunion in Northern Wisconsin next summer and I would like to do a little flyfishing while I’m there.  I’m new to flyfishing and have only fished in Colorado.  I will be North of Green Bay on the Oconto River.  Does anybody know what type of fly is good in June/July time frame?  I will be taking my tying equipment but would like to know so I can tie up some flies before I drive to grandma’s house. I’m also interested in fishing for walleye and pike or anything else that swims!!!!!  Any advice would be welcomed.  You can either post Thanks, Rik Meyers Colorado Springs, CO

Response:

I will be going to a family reunion in Northern Wisconsin next summer and I would like to do a little flyfishing while I’m there.

The two web sites I find most accurate and useful for WI trout: http://home.dwave.net/~patrick/ http://www.vbe.com/~heusers/ff_wi/streams/whereto.htm Hope this helps. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie! Three hours?  You’re outa your league here, Harry.  That same bucket sitting on my foredeck in July would give the microwave a run for it’s money.  We’re talkin’ Solar Hell of the first order. Russ

Ahh. But the chowda bucket is sitting in the ice bucket… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do these white hairs mean I’m turning blond?!?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie! Three hours?  You’re outa your league here, Harry.  That same bucket sitting on my foredeck in July would give the microwave a run for it’s money. We’re talkin’ Solar Hell of the first order. Russ Ahh. But the chowda bucket is sitting in the ice bucket… —

Ice?  You can keep ice in the summer?  Ice in the summer doesn’t melt here. As it turns to liquid before your very eyes, what you are in fact witnessing are uncontrollable tears from the pain. Russ

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ

You are in AZ, right?  I guess I shouldn’t give FL the sole monopoly. I should say they have the monopoly east of the Miss.  I’ve been to San Antonio and Austin in July and August, and that was quite miserable as well.  I have also been to Sacremento and Sonoma in July. It wasn’t very comfortable there, either.  Sorry to not give credit where it is due.  I guess that’s why Death Valley is out there.  Hot as Hades.   Our summer weather is the sort that your glasses fog up as you step out of your air conditioned house or car.  The humidity causes you to sweat profusely, yet you do not cool off.  Your body’s cooling mechanism doesn’t work because you cannot evaporate any sweat.  When I went to California, it was much hotter, and I no doubt sweated, but I didn’t notice it as much because the sweat would actually evaporate.   I guess the moral is at the end of the day, it doesn’t much matter if you are in CA or NC, you had better drink lots of fluids in the hot months.  Heatstroke doesn’t have a monopoly on geography. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Small word of warning.  I got the bimini with mine and found that certain points were held with screws.  They vibrated loose during the first trailer ride and I almost lost the bimini (which would really have sucked for the tailgater behind me <g).  

<snip And then again, how ’bout a quick-release mechanism triggered from the driver’s seat for those moments when you just can’t take the idiot behind you any more?

Response:

Not the rails.  It was the screws that hold the joints of the bimini frame together.  These are the joints where the frame folds.  I guess they thought it would be too difficult to get bolt tightness light enough to allow the joints to fold, while keeping the nut tight enough to not come off.  Using a regular nut and lock washer, followed by the nylok, allows you to set the inner nut loose enough to allow folding, while tightening the nylok against the inner nut holds it exactly in place. – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

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I was crossing the Galveston Causeway and coming onto I-45 with Ken and Barbie in a red Mustang tailgating me badly.  I am still not sure if it was Divine or Satanic intervention that made a wooden paddle I had accidentally forgotten in the cockpit of my boat fly out and head right for his windshield.  It just missed him, but scared the crap out of both of us.  I’m very careful about no loose items when trailering now.  Maybe he also tailgates a bit less… – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff; Small word of warning.  I got the bimini with mine and found that certain points were held with screws.  They vibrated loose during the first trailer ride and I almost lost the bimini (which would really have sucked for the tailgater behind me <g).  I replaced them with a bolt with a lock washer, bolt, and nylock cap nut and they’ve never come loose since (5 years). Regards, Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Thanks, Bud. My dealer is installing the bimini.  I’ll be sure to check how they mount the rails. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Jeff; Small word of warning.  I got the bimini with mine and found that certain points were held with screws.  They vibrated loose during the first trailer ride and I almost lost the bimini (which would really have sucked for the tailgater behind me <g).  I replaced them with a bolt with a lock washer, bolt, and nylock cap nut and they’ve never come loose since (5 years). Regards, Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are in AZ, right?  I guess I shouldn’t give FL the sole monopoly. I should say they have the monopoly east of the Miss.  I’ve been to San Antonio and Austin in July and August, and that was quite miserable as well.  I have also been to Sacremento and Sonoma in July. It wasn’t very comfortable there, either.  Sorry to not give credit where it is due.  I guess that’s why Death Valley is out there.  Hot as Hades. Our summer weather is the sort that your glasses fog up as you step out of your air conditioned house or car.  The humidity causes you to sweat profusely, yet you do not cool off.  Your body’s cooling mechanism doesn’t work because you cannot evaporate any sweat.  When I went to California, it was much hotter, and I no doubt sweated, but I didn’t notice it as much because the sweat would actually evaporate. I guess the moral is at the end of the day, it doesn’t much matter if you are in CA or NC, you had better drink lots of fluids in the hot months.  Heatstroke doesn’t have a monopoly on geography.

Yeah, AZ is correct.  Been here most of my life.  The Fall, Winter, and Spring are beautiful, but you pay for them with Summer.  Summers never used to bother me when I was younger, but they get harder to deal with every year.  I do think the dry heat is more tolerable than the wet stuff, but it’s still hot.  Congratulations on your new boat.  I bet you can’t wait to get it wet. Russ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie!

Three hours?  You’re outa your league here, Harry.  That same bucket sitting on my foredeck in July would give the microwave a run for it’s money.  We’re talkin’ Solar Hell of the first order. Russ

Response:

When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer. Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ

Ha. It gets so hot in Florida that you just have to pop your fish in a bucket with potatoes and carrots and onions, along with some water, and in three hours…you have chowda! — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Do not judge a book by its movie!

Response:

When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.

Uh, not to intrude, but I can speak with absolute authority that the great state of Florida does *not* have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  I am happy to report that there is robust competition for miserable summer heat.  Ours is just the dry variety.  Not unlike the kind you would roast a turkey in. Russ

Response:

I saw your model Scout yesterday at a dealer’s I was visiting. It certainly fulfilled my expectation as a really good boat, sturdily built, with good finish work and lots of nice features. What kind of performance do you anticipate from the 150? Also, consider a stainless steel framed bimini rather than a tee-top. I’ll be glad to discuss this with you. — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Take a BIG bite out of crime….arrest the Republican Congress.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up. I think it depends on where you fish and how. Florida gets brutally hot in the summer and, if you are fishing, ducking under a bimini provides great relief. The shaded area provided by a tee-top is much much smaller, so that only a couple of fishermen can find relief. If you trailer a lot, you’ll find that the tee-top creates a lot of drag at highway speeds. Tee-tops have a lot of advantages, too, of course. Up on the Chesapeake, most of the fishing seems to be trolling, chum and some bottom, all done from the back of the boat without interference from a bimini. If I want to fly fish and the bimini is down, I can cast in any direction without snagging the uprights of a tee-top. When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  It would love to find some type of top that is a cross between a t-top and a bimini.  A top that allows 360* fishability, yet is stowable when you need to take it out.  I imagine some sort of t-top with bolted flange connections that you can unbolt when you don’t want the top on.  Ever seen anything like that? Also curious, Harry.  Are you looking at buying a Scout? Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

No. I’m mildly interested in another brand of boat, but the dealer that handles that one also handles Scout and Grady-White. If I were in the market for another center console, I’d give Scout real serious consideration. Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - Budget: A method for going broke methodically.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up. I think it depends on where you fish and how. Florida gets brutally hot in the summer and, if you are fishing, ducking under a bimini provides great relief. The shaded area provided by a tee-top is much much smaller, so that only a couple of fishermen can find relief. If you trailer a lot, you’ll find that the tee-top creates a lot of drag at highway speeds. Tee-tops have a lot of advantages, too, of course. Up on the Chesapeake, most of the fishing seems to be trolling, chum and some bottom, all done from the back of the boat without interference from a bimini. If I want to fly fish and the bimini is down, I can cast in any direction without snagging the uprights of a tee-top.

When I went on an offshore charter in Key West in September, I learned about "brutally hot."  I thought it was bad in NC!  You guys have a monopoly on "miserable" in the heat of summer.  It would love to find some type of top that is a cross between a t-top and a bimini.  A top that allows 360* fishability, yet is stowable when you need to take it out.  I imagine some sort of t-top with bolted flange connections that you can unbolt when you don’t want the top on.  Ever seen anything like that? Also curious, Harry.  Are you looking at buying a Scout? Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up.

I think it depends on where you fish and how. Florida gets brutally hot in the summer and, if you are fishing, ducking under a bimini provides great relief. The shaded area provided by a tee-top is much much smaller, so that only a couple of fishermen can find relief. If you trailer a lot, you’ll find that the tee-top creates a lot of drag at highway speeds. Tee-tops have a lot of advantages, too, of course. Up on the Chesapeake, most of the fishing seems to be trolling, chum and some bottom, all done from the back of the boat without interference from a bimini. If I want to fly fish and the bimini is down, I can cast in any direction without snagging the uprights of a tee-top.

Response:

I saw your model Scout yesterday at a dealer’s I was visiting. It certainly fulfilled my expectation as a really good boat, sturdily built, with good finish work and lots of nice features.

Glad you liked it, Harry.  I looked at boats for a year and stumbled upon Scout at a boat show.  After seeing so many boats, and then getting disgusted with a designer (scratching my head saying, "why in the heck did they put that there?"), the Scout was the answer.   Things are in the right places.  Not only does it have jump seats in the back, it has grab rails for the people in the seat.  That plastic cover for the electronics box?  No need to just toss it in the console and get it all scratched up, Scout machined two pieces of plastic with slots that accept the cover.  Bilge?  You can actually open a small hatch and get your arms down in there to change seacocks, pumps, switches, etc.  Oh, they also gel coat the interior of the bilge (AND the compartment below the console).  Fuel?  No problem.  It holds 92 gallons, plenty for a 20′ CC.  Electronics?  Circuit breakers, not fuses.  Switches?  Mounted on the underside of the aft edge of the console, out of the weather as much as possible. I could go on.  I was, and still am, impressed as hell with the thought and design put into this boat. What kind of performance do you anticipate from the 150?

I tested it with a 150.  The boat, on a river, topped at 51 (boat speedo) with two men and 1/4 tank of fuel.  Here is how Yamaha rates the boat (test performed and certified by Yamaha application engineers): Weight as tested:  3325 lbs (boat, motor, full fuel) Engine:  Yammy, S150TXRW, 150 HP Prop:  13 3/4" X 17", part number 6G5-45978-02-98 Number of people: 2 Seconds to plane:  2.9 Test Conditions: Air temp:  80F Water temp:  74F Elevation:  Sea level Wind velocity:  12 MPH Comments:  test weight included 40 lb battery, fuel, and 50 lb misc. equipment Performance Data: RPM     MPH     GPH     MPG 1000    7.3     1.1     6.6 2000    10.2    2.7     3.7 3000    24.0    7.5     3.2 4000    33.7    12.3    2.7 5000    41.0    13.4    3.0 5400    46.1    15.7    2.0 Speed data gathered with a Magellan GPS receiver. I am not sure if they tested with a t-top or not.  I would guess not. How is that for a manufacturer giving out information?  Another impressive aspect of Scout.  They respond to emails, usually within two or three days.  Not as fast as I would like, but at least they respond. Also, consider a stainless steel framed bimini rather than a tee-top. I’ll be glad to discuss this with you.

I did not get the t-top.  It was expensive, and there may be areas that I will fish that I would not want a t-top.  I went with the bimini, mounted on a track.  At the boat shows here in Raleigh, there were about four different top manufacturer’s, so I can always add an aftermarket t-top if I find I use the boat mostly offshore.  The top may also restrict access under some bridges.  Casting with a couple guys in the boat may also get a little "hairy" (no pun intended) with the t-top. As always, Harry, I am interested in hearing your reasons for the boat sans t-top.  An obvious drawback to the bimini vs. t-top is that 360 degree fishability becomes more difficult with the top up. My list of options include the swim platform, the bow cushion, and bimini top.  I decided against the leaning post.  After fishing for a season, that may change.  The boat comes with a trailerable cover with a three year warranty at no additional charge.  With the t-top, you don’t get a full cover, only a motor cover. I went to the dealer with a big box full of GPS, VHF, antenna, two antenna rail mounts (gps ant., and vhf ant.), fishfinder, and RAM mounts.  I went with the ram mounts to give a horizontal swivel option in addition to the vertical swivel afforded by the factory mount.  The also allows vertical adjustment within the electronics box.  They are slick!  I also thought that if I want to change from my Garmin 128 GPS to a Lowrance 1600 or equivalent in a few years, I won’t have to drill new holes for the electronics.  I have an appointment for 10 am next Saturday to close the deal and hitch up to my new toy. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

To me (Richard may/may not agree), it is not as low as you would think

True, I agree, the freeboard is not really that low that I would worry about it.  There are boats with more (GradyWhite) but I prefer the lower sides. The boat does have toeboards

Yes, I forgot about those.  These features a missing on a lot of boats this size and they are very helpful when things get a rock’n. Richard Daines Ledyard, CT http://www.ctol.net/~rdaines/

Response:

Lower freeboard in the aft of the boat has long been considered an important design feature in larger offshore boats, where a swamped cockpit might sink the boat, if the cockpit could hold enough water vs. the reserve flotation in the bow.  I don’t think this is as much an issue with a boat like a Scout that has level flotation, but it is still helpful if you have to clear the cockpit of a greenie, to have the engine above the waterline.  I take my 162 out regularly to 20-30 miles in 2-4′ seas and further when it is calm.  I’ve never taken a drop of spray.  I don’t, however, have kids, though, if I did, they would not come offshore with me without lifevests and swimming lessons anyhow. Good luck! – Bud — Bud Feuless & Miki Magara-Feuless

Response:

The only thing that bothers me about the looks of the Scout is the apparent low free-board. Does this bother anyone but me or is in my imagination. Is a boat with a low free board less safe in offshore conditions?

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Scout’s freeboard unless you are going to have small children in the boat.  Lower sides aft will not be a problem and will certainly aid in boating large, heavy fish.  The boat is self bailing so if, by chance, water does make it over the side, it will drain out quickly. I am glad to see this thread. I was considering the Scout along with the Aquasport, Pro-Line and Sport-Craft

These are all good boats, buy the one that best suits your needs. For me it was a Scout. Richard Daines Ledyard, CT http://www.ctol.net/~rdaines/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only thing that bothers me about the looks of the Scout is the apparent low free-board. Does this bother anyone but me or is in my imagination. Is a boat with a low free board less safe in offshore conditions? Absolutely nothing wrong with the Scout’s freeboard unless you are going to have small children in the boat.  Lower sides aft will not be a problem and will certainly aid in boating large, heavy fish.  The boat is self bailing so if, by chance, water does make it over the side, it will drain out quickly. I am glad to see this thread. I was considering the Scout along with the Aquasport, Pro-Line and Sport-Craft These are all good boats, buy the one that best suits your needs. For me it was a Scout. Richard Daines Ledyard, CT http://www.ctol.net/~rdaines/

In my opinion, the freeboard is somewhat decieving on the Scout. There is a downward curve on the top of the gunwale just aft of the seats.  To me (Richard may/may not agree), it is not as low as you would think as you look at the boat on a trailer.  I would guess the freeboard around the jumpseats is about 24".  Take the boat out for a ride where you plan on using it and decide for yourself.  It may bother you, and it may not.  I would recommend making that decision on the water versus on the dealer’s lot. The boat does have toeboards at the bottom of the rod racks, and that is the area where you would lean over to gaff a big fish or release one.  Locking your feet into the toeboards and leaning against the gunwale gives a secure platform for fighting big fish as well. I certainly agree with Richards last statement.  For me, it was also the Scout. Jeff Sorry, but email address disguised due to unscrupulous spammers.  Please respond in Usenet.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A.P.Dryden schrieb in Nachricht … Okay, I’ll fess up, too. I suck at drinking The Famous Grouse. I’m self-taught, from books. Never had a drinking lesson. :-O -<=== (me, drinking straight from the bottle of life) — A.P. Dryden A Loyal Explorer of The Famous Grouse Share a Wee Dram and a Tall Tale at http://www.famousgrouse.com/explorers Considering my well known and widely praised lyrical laudations of your esteemed beverage, and following a whim, basically engendered by being referred to as a salon fixture, failed  poet and a dumb popcorn fuelled farting ox, which caused me to imbibe freely of the aforementioned excellent beverage, probably due to fear of instant withering, and as a form of preventive medication, I had occasion to wander into your hallowed halls and was shocked to discover a flagrant case of discrimination, as opposed to a fragrant case of whiskey. In order to alleviate the almost fatal shock resulting from this discovery of unquieting enormity, I was obliged to partake of a further half bottle in order to steady my shattered faith in humankind, and restore my constitution and strengthen my unwavering resolve to continue my explorations. How is it sir that only colonials are admitted to your illustrious ranks, by whose decree is one of the highest possible honours ever to be bestowed on a grateful and undeserving multitude only available to members of a formal penal colony ? That juveniles may not be admitted to the glorious ranks is clear, and requires no further enlightenment, but I sir am an Englishman ! I beg you to reconsider your decision, as otherwise I will be forced to send her most regal majesties official diapproval, a tanker load of freeze dried tea,  and an expeditionary force to convince you of our basically peaceful intentions. We ask, nay sir we demand ! that these unjust and unecessarily cruel discriminations cease forthwith, otherwise sir the consequences may be grave indeed, and might well otherwise result in many wantonly resorting to the uncontrolled use of port and brandy. Yours sincerely Michael A.B.Connor  Class of ROFF 99 ( failed ).

   Huh! (didn’t talk till 6, pointen worked jest fine)                                                                John Popp                                                           in Sanford Fl.

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– While in non-compliance with local decency ordinances the world over, We ask, nay sir we demand ! that these unjust and unecessarily cruel discriminations cease forthwith, otherwise sir the consequences may be grave indeed, and might well otherwise result in many wantonly resorting to the uncontrolled use of port and brandy.

Truly the act of a desperate man. My gawd, I’ve got scotch like nobody’s business, but none of it’s the bird. Anything more expensive than Pete Dawson’s messes me up the morning after. Want some? —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNrB40ZdiUzdLFqlpAQEtvgf/RxrzL00kA35+K1jREtq+eN3IsCfj/EtD Z/F5e5+LjTkNmcMx/ztVxWqlmh7Eiw+yTbeeD1BOXaoFwlqRag8vbAUfHcmXT87A q6PTzOfrU20si/S8sJlYPmwr60mZrfwvlcrMTi5n97qLneppSQrG/lF2dPm0VL3I Bjh4TA4iS62MMx7ouBVWnGE/QQso1anrwSu33JfVHlKGfLQyTiGWM94r2SkOEg2z E1IrQFJCHWpL2cO49udHzsNc55+EVRWqGJyf/VNnMZpT9kxjw+Bk63+DW9EhfPMm aYifNpyGpHzfBQ55/1e9nNO37BeOvSwq0dh/rzzubp0jVg7/xnO0FA== =T2BU —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– Mike S. Medintz, http://www.grapevine.net/~medintz "I’m a liberal conservative. I believe in keeping things the way that  they should have been in the first place." -anon.

Response:

Mike Medintz: <<—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– While in non-compliance with local decency ordinances the world over, We ask, nay sir we demand ! that these unjust and unecessarily cruel discriminations cease forthwith, otherwise sir the consequences may be grave indeed, and might well otherwise result in many wantonly resorting to the uncontrolled use of port and brandy.

Truly the act of a desperate man. My gawd, I’ve got scotch like nobody’s business, but none of it’s the bird. Anything more expensive than Pete Dawson’s messes me up the morning after. Want some? —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNrB40ZdiUzdLFqlpAQEtvgf/RxrzL00kA35+K1jREtq+eN3IsCfj/EtD Z/F5e5+LjTkNmcMx/ztVxWqlmh7Eiw+yTbeeD1BOXaoFwlqRag8vbAUfHcmXT87A q6PTzOfrU20si/S8sJlYPmwr60mZrfwvlcrMTi5n97qLneppSQrG/lF2dPm0VL3I Bjh4TA4iS62MMx7ouBVWnGE/QQso1anrwSu33JfVHlKGfLQyTiGWM94r2SkOEg2z E1IrQFJCHWpL2cO49udHzsNc55+EVRWqGJyf/VNnMZpT9kxjw+Bk63+DW9EhfPMm aYifNpyGpHzfBQ55/1e9nNO37BeOvSwq0dh/rzzubp0jVg7/xnO0FA== =T2BU —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– Mike S. Medintz, http://www.grapevine.net/~medintz "I’m a liberal conservative. I believe in keeping things the way that  they should have been in the first place." -anon. Mike, just curious, but what the hell is all the stuff between "Begin PGP Signature"  and "End PGP Signature"?  And, why is it there? Dave LaCourse

Response:

Okay, I’ll fess up, too. I suck at drinking The Famous Grouse. I’m self-taught, from books. Never had a drinking lesson. :-O -<=== (me, drinking straight from the bottle of life)

A.P., that’s what we need to really get ROFF going, and further irritate those who are complaining about content – drinking lessons. Based on your vast experience, I think you should start with a post or two about techniques for attacking the famous grouse. Mark Faulkner

Response:

A.P.Dryden schrieb in Nachricht … Okay, I’ll fess up, too. I suck at drinking The Famous Grouse. I’m self-taught, from books. Never had a drinking lesson. :-O -<=== (me, drinking straight from the bottle of life) — A.P. Dryden A Loyal Explorer of The Famous Grouse Share a Wee Dram and a Tall Tale at http://www.famousgrouse.com/explorers

Considering my well known and widely praised lyrical laudations of your esteemed beverage, and following a whim, basically engendered by being referred to as a salon fixture, failed  poet and a dumb popcorn fuelled farting ox, which caused me to imbibe freely of the aforementioned excellent beverage, probably due to fear of instant withering, and as a form of preventive medication, I had occasion to wander into your hallowed halls and was shocked to discover a flagrant case of discrimination, as opposed to a fragrant case of whiskey. In order to alleviate the almost fatal shock resulting from this discovery of unquieting enormity, I was obliged to partake of a further half bottle in order to steady my shattered faith in humankind, and restore my constitution and strengthen my unwavering resolve to continue my explorations. How is it sir that only colonials are admitted to your illustrious ranks, by whose decree is one of the highest possible honours ever to be bestowed on a grateful and undeserving multitude only available to members of a formal penal colony ? That juveniles may not be admitted to the glorious ranks is clear, and requires no further enlightenment, but I sir am an Englishman ! I beg you to reconsider your decision, as otherwise I will be forced to send her most regal majesties official diapproval, a tanker load of freeze dried tea,  and an expeditionary force to convince you of our basically peaceful intentions. We ask, nay sir we demand ! that these unjust and unecessarily cruel discriminations cease forthwith, otherwise sir the consequences may be grave indeed, and might well otherwise result in many wantonly resorting to the uncontrolled use of port and brandy. Yours sincerely Michael A.B.Connor  Class of ROFF 99 ( failed ).

Response:

(Frogspritz) writes: Based on your vast experience, I think you should start with a post or two about techniques for attacking the famous grouse.

I’ll start. How to serve Famous Grouse. 1. Open Bottle 2. Get appropriate glass. 3. Pour Famous Grouse down the sink. 4. Pour into the glass an appropiate single malt scotch. 5. Enjoy! Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A.P.Dryden schrieb in Nachricht … Okay, I’ll fess up, too. I suck at drinking The Famous Grouse. I’m self-taught, from books. Never had a drinking lesson. :-O -<=== (me, drinking straight from the bottle of life) — A.P. Dryden A Loyal Explorer of The Famous Grouse Share a Wee Dram and a Tall Tale at http://www.famousgrouse.com/explorers Considering my well known and widely praised lyrical laudations of your esteemed beverage, and following a whim, basically engendered by being referred to as a salon fixture, failed  poet and a dumb popcorn fuelled farting ox, which caused me to imbibe freely of the aforementioned excellent beverage, probably due to fear of instant withering, and as a form of preventive medication, I had occasion to wander into your hallowed halls Yours sincerely

(snip of hilarious stuff) Michael A.B.Connor  Class of ROFF 99 ( failed ).

        wonderfully done, michael!         damn near enough to turn you into an anglophile, isn’t it, taffy ol friend? wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I figure now is the time to fess up, before you all meet me in NC. Besides the fact that i’m the youngest buck in the group, I suck at flyfishing. I’m self taught, from books. Never had a casting lesson, tying lesson, or any other type of lesson. So you guys leave me alone when I start snagging your clothes and tying masturful blobs of dubbing! Tim Apple P.S. I am very proficient at drinking the Famouse Grouse though.

Response:

I figure now is the time to fess up, before you all meet me in NC. Besides the fact that i’m the youngest buck in the group, I suck at flyfishing. I’m self taught, from books. Never had a casting lesson, tying lesson, or any other type of lesson. So you guys leave me alone when I start snagging your clothes and tying masturful blobs of dubbing! Tim Apple P.S. I am very proficient at drinking the Famouse Grouse though.

Tim, you actually believe we know how to fish? hell wayno’s gonna be cryin in his cabin most of the time mumbling "how did waldo sink that 30′ putt" between gulps of vodka. i’m gonna be runnin to the bank to deposit my winnings and george is gonna be screamin from his cabin "c’mon guys let me out" after we spike his door. some other nameless person will be tending to his animal husbandry. matt will be hungover, won’t be able to fish at all. tom will be playing with his loran equipment. mark will be chasing his southern dreams and wayne will be chasing other game. let’s see, that leaves big al and charlie…. imnsho, probaly damn good fishing pardners fer ya. apologies for any ruffled feathers and especially if i inadvertantly left someone out. –Wataugan "let the clave begin" Walt

Response:

What the hell was that! Speak American, damn it! TWL         Big Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I figure now is the time to fess up, before you all meet me in NC. Besides the fact that i’m the youngest buck in the group, I suck at flyfishing. I’m self taught, from books. Never had a casting lesson, tying lesson, or any other type of lesson. So you guys leave me alone when I start snagging your clothes and tying masturful blobs of dubbing! Tim Apple P.S. I am very proficient at drinking the Famouse Grouse though. Tim, you actually believe we know how to fish? hell wayno’s gonna be cryin in his cabin most of the time mumbling "how did waldo sink that 30′ putt" between gulps of vodka. i’m gonna be runnin to the bank to deposit my winnings and george is gonna be screamin from his cabin "c’mon guys let me out" after we spike his door. some other nameless person will be tending to his animal husbandry. matt will be hungover, won’t be able to fish at all. tom will be playing with his loran equipment. mark will be chasing his southern dreams and wayne will be chasing other game. let’s see, that leaves big al and charlie…. imnsho, probaly damn good fishing pardners fer ya. apologies for any ruffled feathers and especially if i inadvertantly left someone out. –Wataugan "let the clave begin" Walt

Response:

I figure now is the time to fess up, before you all meet me in NC. Besides the fact that i’m the youngest buck in the group, I suck at flyfishing. I’m self taught, from books. Never had a casting lesson, tying lesson, or any other type of lesson. So you guys leave me alone when I start snagging your clothes and tying masturful blobs of dubbing! Tim Apple P.S. I am very proficient at drinking the Famouse Grouse though.

*twitch!* ignore. *twitch, twitch* ignore I’m not biting! This monster is drifting down stream. the G fish —

Question:

ugliest bearing remnant or piston rod (or maybe the alarm buzzer?) on the little display shelf that I call "The Chamber of Horrors."  It includes

At my house I call it the  "Hall of Shame" Iam gonna have it rebuildt. My first adventure will be  the trip back up river. I hope.. What kind of warrenty do you get on a rebuild? d mac

Response:

Yes, a humorous (to us!) post about a sad time, and we’ve all had them, but there is usually a valuable lesson-learned in any marine mishap, even on a small boat, and I found a good one buried in this one:  insure that critial alarms are audible or install remotes that will be.  Not to mention the other L RE-learned, that could’ve been more tragic in a river current: ground tackle is safety equipment!  Always know the water depths you’ll be traversing in advance (er, read a chart), and have sufficient scope (5 – 7 x depth) aboard & at the ready. Motor bearings, etc. are likely fried.  I’d fix it anyway, and put the ugliest bearing remnant or piston rod (or maybe the alarm buzzer?) on the little display shelf that I call "The Chamber of Horrors."  It includes such conversational items as a badly broken motorcycle helmet that came off my own head, a bolt fragment from inside a low suction valve bonnet that kept a chemical tanker in drydock for 3 extra days at a charter loss of millions, a stellite steam turbine blade that not only made it through the casing but pierced a forced-draft blower housing several stories higher, a peephole fitting that got buried in my fireman’s forehead (didn’t purge the furnace B4 lighting off after 38 years in the fireroom), the ring from my first marriage, and the empty envelope from the personal Christmas card Larry River$ painted for me that I accidently threw into the stove.

Response:

Fix the engine, and do the trip again to proof your wife wrong.  Just joking, but I will do the trip over myself.

Ha good point, I will finish it someday. d mac

Response:

I have no idea whats wrong but enjoyed reading your story….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well for the last week of kids being out of school had a trip planned. Mini vacation, money tight end of summer one last cheap trip. I keep my boat at Paris Landing Tenn , stayed there a few nights and sat morning had planned for me wife 2 kids to go 50 miles to Toms creek on Tenn river to meet friends and there kids and stay  there 2 days and come back SUN…. Wife told me dont do it lets drive we know we will get there ..yang, yang, yang ect ect…… Nope Iam ready for a TRIP family time.. BOAT is a 86 28′Harris Pontoon  w/86 115 Johnson, OIL INJECTED  2nd owner, I have had 3 years nver gone anywere serviced once a year only used it once this year as in go for day. BOAT is slip kept.. 8AM SAt we take off have extra battery, cable, chart maps my 2 12 gallon tanks 20 more gallons of gas, oil reservier is FULL.. food, suit cases lots of cold beer for when I get there with my pardner , wives are good friends me and RON will kick back…. Off we go. Iam thinking hell Iam MANLY kinda guy looking for ADVENTURE!! Iam figurein  about a 3 hr trip running from 20 to 25mph.. ran my first tank out abouit a hour, was following bouys running red up river,things going good had a neat chart maps by TVA showe my marking ect.. I ran out of 1st tank of gas after about a hour changed to full tank 10 min later let son drive, he does fine 10 min later there is a CLANKing knocking nose, could tell motor was missing I started driving Talk about your a STUBBORN asshole  I TOLD YOU SO look from my wife….. I didn’t hear beeping nose(oiler beeps when not working)… no smoke , steam , smell… I cut off motor took off cover. I saw a cracked small hose that outlet that pumps water from engine to side of motor that lets you know water pump is working. I cut off bad hose pout back, this had nothing to do with problem. Engin was hot to touch.. well here I was with family floating Tenn River nobody around. what should I do? Just passed a god I know 3 wide 10 deep barge heading my way a few miles ago water dept is 40 feet in channel. My anchor ropw is 25..  I started motor back up, it was clanging more I could go forward just went slow. Fisherman came by I flagged him down he stopped, He asked me about oil told him it was 1/2 full. I cranked again he said its fixing to LOCK UP.. i shut if off.. let it cool cranked it again it just bumped didnt turn over.. HMmmm not good… we talked then I asked him the big one how far is closest mechinac.."About 5 miles that way,, I had a phone called info got marina "NOPE no one here  or gonna be here today but me" talk about being in  JAM… I told fisherman ID sure pay ya if you can tow me in… he had a RANGER 150  he said, "Ive been in your shoes before, you gotta rope?"  There is a GOD!! these fellow could have said see ya dont wanna be ya..  These  2 guys towed us a few miles told us  they had to stop saw fish in finder. They started fishing got into a mess of stripes, they cought 10 stripes it was great, wife and kids got a kick out of that… called folks we were on they were hour away they were on their way. When we got to dock and in slip I had $50 in my  hand and asked how much and the guy said "nothing the man didnt charge me anything and you just pass it on" I said please take this let me buy your lunch, take these 20 gallons of gas its not gonna do me any good. NOPE he didnt want nothing.. Well friends came picked us up (he to told me it was dumb to make the trip, so I HAD to listen to his remarks and rightfully so, I had screwed up his day driveing. We left boat over night, called had a friend pick up my trailor meet me there on SUN we picked it up now its in back yard.. END of story I had OIL in reseror tank, my water pump impeller replaced last year with cover off I can turn fly wheel about 4 turns and will turn  when starting but will come to stop and then will only bump unless your turn with had but will again come to stop and go no futher… Gonna have checked out, what ya think it is. Do I fix this motor or is it to OLD (86 Johnson 115) what could it be. d mac Tennessee

Response:

Sorry to hear your story.  Really sad, but at least you are ok. Fix the engine, and do the trip again to proof your wife wrong.  Just joking, but I will do the trip over myself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well for the last week of kids being out of school had a trip planned. Mini vacation, money tight end of summer one last cheap trip. I keep my boat at Paris Landing Tenn , stayed there a few

Response:

Well for the last week of kids being out of school had a trip planned. Mini vacation, money tight end of summer one last cheap trip. I keep my boat at Paris Landing Tenn , stayed there a few nights and sat morning had planned for me wife 2 kids to go 50 miles to Toms creek on Tenn river to meet friends and there kids and stay  there 2 days and come back SUN…. Wife told me dont do it lets drive we know we will get there ..yang, yang, yang ect ect…… Nope Iam ready for a TRIP family time.. BOAT is a 86 28′Harris Pontoon  w/86 115 Johnson, OIL INJECTED  2nd owner, I have had 3 years nver gone anywere serviced once a year only used it once this year as in go for day. BOAT is slip kept.. 8AM SAt we take off have extra battery, cable, chart maps my 2 12 gallon tanks 20 more gallons of gas, oil reservier is FULL.. food, suit cases lots of cold beer for when I get there with my pardner , wives are good friends me and RON will kick back…. Off we go. Iam thinking hell Iam MANLY kinda guy looking for ADVENTURE!! Iam figurein  about a 3 hr trip running from 20 to 25mph.. ran my first tank out abouit a hour, was following bouys running red up river,things going good had a neat chart maps by TVA showe my marking ect.. I ran out of 1st tank of gas after about a hour changed to full tank 10 min later let son drive, he does fine 10 min later there is a CLANKing knocking nose, could tell motor was missing I started driving Talk about your a STUBBORN asshole  I TOLD YOU SO look from my wife….. I didn’t hear beeping nose(oiler beeps when not working)… no smoke , steam , smell… I cut off motor took off cover. I saw a cracked small hose that outlet that pumps water from engine to side of motor that lets you know water pump is working. I cut off bad hose pout back, this had nothing to do with problem. Engin was hot to touch.. well here I was with family floating Tenn River nobody around. what should I do? Just passed a god I know 3 wide 10 deep barge heading my way a few miles ago water dept is 40 feet in channel. My anchor ropw is 25..  I started motor back up, it was clanging more I could go forward just went slow. Fisherman came by I flagged him down he stopped, He asked me about oil told him it was 1/2 full. I cranked again he said its fixing to LOCK UP.. i shut if off.. let it cool cranked it again it just bumped didnt turn over.. HMmmm not good… we talked then I asked him the big one how far is closest mechinac.."About 5 miles that way,, I had a phone called info got marina "NOPE no one here  or gonna be here today but me" talk about being in  JAM… I told fisherman ID sure pay ya if you can tow me in… he had a RANGER 150  he said, "Ive been in your shoes before, you gotta rope?"  There is a GOD!! these fellow could have said see ya dont wanna be ya..  These  2 guys towed us a few miles told us  they had to stop saw fish in finder. They started fishing got into a mess of stripes, they cought 10 stripes it was great, wife and kids got a kick out of that… called folks we were on they were hour away they were on their way. When we got to dock and in slip I had $50 in my  hand and asked how much and the guy said "nothing the man didnt charge me anything and you just pass it on" I said please take this let me buy your lunch, take these 20 gallons of gas its not gonna do me any good. NOPE he didnt want nothing.. Well friends came picked us up (he to told me it was dumb to make the trip, so I HAD to listen to his remarks and rightfully so, I had screwed up his day driveing. We left boat over night, called had a friend pick up my trailor meet me there on SUN we picked it up now its in back yard.. END of story I had OIL in reseror tank, my water pump impeller replaced last year with cover off I can turn fly wheel about 4 turns and will turn  when starting but will come to stop and then will only bump unless your turn with had but will again come to stop and go no futher… Gonna have checked out, what ya think it is. Do I fix this motor or is it to OLD (86 Johnson 115) what could it be. d mac Tennessee

Response:

Question:

I have sold my tools and materials, now I am offering my books and magazines.  $35.00 + shipping takes all. "Expert Fly-Tying,"  Paul Fling & Donald Puturbaugh, 1986 "Favorite Flies and Their Histories," Mary Orvis Marbury, 1892 (1995 reprint) "Fly-Tyer Pattern Bible," 1985 "Creative Fly-Tying & Fly Fishing," Rex Gerlach, 1974 "Practical Flies & Their Construction," Lacey Gee & Erwin Sias, 1966 My homemade note book with appx. 675 patterns, most with color pictures "Fly Tyer"  Aug ‘84, Nov ‘84, Spring ‘85, Fall ‘85 "American Fly Tyer:"  Spring ‘86-Winter ‘87, most issues "American Angler & Fly Tyer"  Spring ‘88-Fall ‘90, most issues "American Angler"  jan’91-June ‘91 If interested, email Jim at the above email address

Response:

Thanks to all of you who responded.  I sold the books to the first e-mail response I received. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have sold my tools and materials, now I am offering my books and magazines.  $35.00 + shipping takes all.

Response:

Question:

I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use.

Call the company that made the blank, and speak to one of their rod builders.  They will tell you the spacing for that rod, and it will be more accurate than any generalized formula.  Then, if you want to be really sure, tape the guides on and test before you do any wrapping. CQ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use. Thanks, Don All MEASUREMENTS are in INCHES from the tip down. This example is for 1 stripping and 8 snake guides. TIP 4 8 14 21 29 37 45 and a half 54 65 (stripping) You might also consider picking up a book on rod making, this will ensure that you tune your rod for the best performance. In addition, don’t be afraid to add 1 or 2 snake guides, this will give you better line control, and increase your distance on your cast. You Also find that, mending your line on the water is alot better too.For components, I would probably use standard snake guides and ceramic stripping guides, and a chrome tip top. Talk to a fly shop for these components, or tackle dealer. They can set you up with the right ones that you need. One warning though, some of SCSI, or fuji guides are expensive…….O.K  Neil

Response:

Last time I had trouble with the guide spacing the guide was me and I floated into a sweeper tree and replaced everybody’s hat with a large, pissed-off water spider. Dave

Response:

Contact Blue Ridge Rod Company at (410) 224-4072. Their catalog has a guide psacing chart for rods from 6′6" to 10". Good source of info in general. Good wrapping! Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use. Thanks, Don

Response:

I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use. Thanks, Don

Response:

Don:      The guide spacing charts are okay for starters, but you really want to try the "fit" before you actually wrap them. I use masking tape to hold them in place and then actually cast the rod to see how it sets up. When flexed, you don’t want too much of an angle between the guides, and conversely, you also do not want too many guides, as they will slow the line down. Also, an oversized stripping guide may improve the line flow when casting. Try it first, and then do your wrapping. Good luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use. Thanks, Don

Response:

I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use. Thanks, Don

Don: The Dale Clemens book on rod building has formulas which will get you close to the correct spacing.  You could also take a tape measure into a local flyshop to get measurements off a factory rod.  Initially, you will want to tape the guides on, then string the rod up to give it a ’stress test’ ( i.e. anchor the butt against a wall or have someone hold it while you bend the rod with the line as if a fish were on ).  Adjust the guide positions to minimize the distance between the line and the rod.  You may find that an extra guide is needed, especially near the tip.  ( This test is a good idea even if you have the factory recommended spacing for your blank. ) Also, while the guides are taped on, take the rod out and cast it to see how it feels.  At this point you can experiment with the position of the stripping guide by putting it as far up the rod as it will go before you start getting ‘line slap’.  The higher up it is, the less drag you’ll have. As far as component size goes, consider using guides a little larger than normal as suggested by LA Garcia.  This is especially important with the stripping guide.  Your rod may not look as sleek as factory rods, but you’ll cut down on drag through the guides when you’re casting. Good luck! Dave Welch

Response:

Don, According to a guide spacing and sizing chart I received from Powell Rod Co. you would need  two 1/0, three 1, one 2, one 3, one #8, and one #10. Spacing is by inches from the tip top to the toe of the rear foot of each guide. 5", 10", 16", 23 1/8", 30 1/2", 38 1/4, 46 1/2", 55 1/2", 66 1/4". If this spacing doesn’t work out for you, usually the rod blank manufacturer can supply you with a spacing chart. Good luck to you. Shad Sterzick Gulpers Fly Fishing Outfitters http://www.xmission.com/~gulpers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m building an 8 ft, 6 weight, 3 piece fly rod. I haven’t been able to find any guild spacing charts that cover this variety. Anyone have any experience with this? I’m also interested in the component types and sizes that you use. Thanks, Don

Response:

Question:

Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

Response:

Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

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  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

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Question:

A lucky colleague of mine has the first three weeks of April as unfettered vacation time. Ever since he saw Andros Island from the air, both live and in photo, he’s been obsessed with the notion of going there on his own, chasing bonefish all day long, and swilling tropical goodness at night. Any suggestions out there? Any first-hand experiences, either + or – , would

Talk to me in late april. I will be going to Andros for a week, mostly unguided. (Not the club, but staying on the research station there) My brother and I may split a guide for 1-2 days, but most time will be spent wading wherever we can with our wives looking for bonefish.  Alan Barrow  km4ba         | If a little knowledge…..

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A lucky colleague of mine has the first three weeks of April as unfettered vacation time. Ever since he saw Andros Island from the air, both live and in photo, he’s been obsessed with the notion of going there on his own, chasing bonefish all day long, and swilling tropical goodness at night. Any suggestions out there? Any first-hand experiences, either + or – , would help him a lot in carving this out. Thanks. (This is my first shot at this – I’ve been signed up here for only a couple of days – How am I doin’?)

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