Question:

During the height of "hummingbird season" I use 10-15 lbs of sugar a week to make the solution. Can I have your "recipe" please?

I’ve never measured sugar to water, but an approximation would be about 1/2 cup sugar to about 3/4 cup water.  Heat water, stirring, until sugar dissolved, add a drop or so of red food coloring, and cool in fridge.  Makes about a qt. Once the birds start lapping up the solution I make about 3 qts at a time. This solution has about 2 – 2.5x more sugar than the commercial powders, and so hummingbirds have to make the trip to the feeder a little less often (which was the point of revving up the sugar).  I had checked with an ornithologist where I work, who blessed the enriched solution.  It can be made even sweeter with no harm to the birds. Note of caution…..I don’t know if beet sugar is sold in the UK, but thru trial and error I discovered that the birds reject a solution of beet sugar (or did mine anyway); I use only cane sugar now. Mac

Response:

This is when a hawk or other predator approaches and smaller birds band together in a planned attack to drive off the intruder. I have seen hawks dive bombed this way by a bunch of starlings.

<nodding   A few years ago I heard loud, continuous bird screeches in back of the house and went to find out what was happening.  A number of birds were attacking an eagle, dive-bombing it and had driven the eagle to flying about 4 feet above the ground.  In a matter of minutes it  had flown off.  I was happy for the escape of any potential prey but I missed a great opportunity to photograph the scene. My hummingbirds have not arrived as yet here in Pa.

Not all the hummingbirds leave this area during the Winter….since it’s a cold "Northern" winter only a few days a season.  A few birds are back at the feeder; in a few weeks, there’ll be a clan gathering of multiple generations. During the height of "hummingbird season" I use 10-15 lbs of sugar a week to make the solution. Mac

Response:

I think cats are the lords and ladies of the earth.  :-) So do the cats. (Hi, Mac … )

Good morning, Arjay.   Small point of order … Fossey worked with _mountain_ gorillas.

When I read over what I had typed, I thought there was something "off"  (blush, blush).  Thanks. Again, a number of species that form families or troops for survival  also develop within the "family" strong sibling and mother-dtr ties, hunting for one another, caring for one another’s offspring, looking out for orphans, protecting one another. That applies in many species.  Look into the behaviours of many social animals: African elephants may be the most striking example.

Yes. If the wolves’ territoriality were unique to the species Tacon’s conjecture would seem stronger.   Mac

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "DawnoftheForest" wrote … Mcc6050 wrote … Dogs rule Hmmmm….I think cats are the lords and ladies of the earth.  :-) So do the cats. (Hi, Mac … ) Interesting article…some comments: Tacon said modern man’s strong territorialism is not shared by other primates. I don’t think that’s all that accurate.  The work by Goodall and Fossey showed that troops/families of chimps and low-land gorillas are territorial. Their findings were, IIRC, mostly confirmations of things suggested by the earlier work of Konrad Lorenz. Even when developing the concept of "imprinting" Lorenz made some passing comments on the apparent territoriality of geese, and I seem to recall he expanded on those comments in _Das sogenannte B

Question:

says… I recommend Oak Creek, Michael, or the Verde River near Dead Horse Ranch. Here’s a couple of links you might find handy: http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/fis_oc.htm http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/m_ocs.htm Enjoy your visit! Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

I’ve been out in Flagstaff twice…both before I started flyfishing!  I may be out there in mid-May and have a day or 2 free.  Thanks for the pointers. Rob

Response:

Michael, Check out www.smallstreams.com It’s mostly about Arizona streams. Thanks, Russ in Tucson

Response:

I recommend Oak Creek, Michael, or the Verde River near Dead Horse Ranch. Here’s a couple of links you might find handy: http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/fis_oc.htm http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/m_ocs.htm Enjoy your visit!

Oh man, the agony of it all!!! I own a house in Flagstaff, and lived there for 12 years, but only took up flyfishing after I left. I never knew there were trout in Oak Creek or the Verde, despite having paddled both rivers (esp the remote stretches of the Verde) dozens of times!!  When I think of all the trips I took, and all those ‘never fished’ stretches I must have passed over because I wasn’t a flyfisher……the thought of the missed opportunities tears me up!!!! riverman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend Oak Creek, Michael, or the Verde River near Dead Horse Ranch. Here’s a couple of links you might find handy: http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/fis_oc.htm http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/m_ocs.htm Enjoy your visit! Oh man, the agony of it all!!! I own a house in Flagstaff, and lived there for 12 years, but only took up flyfishing after I left. I never knew there were trout in Oak Creek or the Verde, despite having paddled both rivers (esp the remote stretches of the Verde) dozens of times!!  When I think of all the trips I took, and all those ‘never fished’ stretches I must have passed over because I wasn’t a flyfisher……the thought of the missed opportunities tears me up!!!! riverman

It’s still here, sweetie.  You can always come back and have another look. :^) Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

All, I’ve got to take a business trip in late March to Phoenix, but then will have 3 days to myself.  Are there fly-fishing opportunities there abouts someone might want to recommend? Cheers, Michael

I recommend Oak Creek, Michael, or the Verde River near Dead Horse Ranch. Here’s a couple of links you might find handy: http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/fis_oc.htm http://www.gorp.com/gorp/publishers/countryman/m_ocs.htm Enjoy your visit! Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

All, I’ve got to take a business trip in late March to Phoenix, then will have 3 days to myself. Are there fly-fishing opportunities there abouts someone might want to recommend? Cheers, Michael

You might try searching this newsgroup for past entries and responses.  There should be quite a few suggestions.  You should contact the AZ Fish and Game at: http://www.gf.state.az.us/frames/index.html My personal favorite fishing was the upper Salt River, about Roosevelt Reservoir.  It’s a longer drive (east to Globe, then either north to the lower river or to Show Low to the upper river) and part of the river (above Chrysotile) is on the Apache Indian Reservation (stop at White River for a license).  The extreme upper Black River is on USFS lands and has good fishing for small mouth bass. Good luck. –Scott–

Response:

I’ll go 3.5 hours north to Lee’s Ferry. John

Agreed — that’s The Place to flyfish in AZ, but it’s a bit much for a day trip from Phoenix. If you have absolutely nothing to do for 3 solid days, it would be a worthwhile venture. Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

I’ll go 3.5 hours north to Lee’s Ferry. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All, I’ve got to take a business trip in late March to Phoenix, but then will have 3 days to myself.  Are there fly-fishing opportunities there abouts someone might want to recommend? Cheers, Michael

Response:

good god!  at last, the final piece of the roffian puzzle: the scent of a woman! smilies from tucson to tucumcari. your friend in the old north state wayno

Hiya handsome! I missed you too!  Told you fellers I’d be back. Looks like y’all have been having fun while I was gone. Enjoying myself thoroughly catching up. Anyone here ever see the Trinity movies (My Name Is Trinity; Trinity Is Still My Name; and My Name Is Nobody)?  Really cheesy Italian westerns with the best slap-fighting ever recorded on celluloid.  That’s what ROFF reminds me of — I LOVE this place!  Glad to be home.  :^)  Hugs all around. Sandy — "…the sport and game of angling is the true means and cause that brings a man into a merry spirit, which…makes a flowering age and a long one." ~~ Dame Juliana Berners 1496

Response:

!  When I think of all the trips I took, and all those ‘never fished’ stretches I must have passed over because I wasn’t a flyfisher……the thought of the missed opportunities tears me up!!!! riverman It’s still here, sweetie.  You can always come back and have another look. :^) Sandy

        good god!  at last, the final piece of the roffian puzzle: the scent of a woman!         smilies from tucson to tucumcari. your friend in the old north state wayno

Response:

All, I’ve got to take a business trip in late March to Phoenix, but then will have 3 days to myself.  Are there fly-fishing opportunities there abouts someone might want to recommend? Cheers, Michael

Response:

Question:

If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story… Last weekend my family and I went camping in Yosemite valley.  I will not get into the planning and strategies necessary to camp with seven-month old twins for four nights but suffice to say that I was, by the grace of my dear wife, able to sneak away for a little fishing here and there. If you’ve never been there, well, it really is as pretty as you’ve heard.  And much to my amazement, there are fish swimming in the Merced river — right by the spots that millions (well, hundreds of thousands, anyway) of tourists traverse each summer.  I have always assumed that any water with that ease of access and that many people around would be fished out.  But this isn’t the case here.  I suppose that (a) the artificial fly regulations limit the casual baitfishing that often accompanies camping and (b) most people are there to see El Capitan, Half Dome, and the waterfalls.  Anyway, as it turns out there were fish swimming in both the Merced and Tenaya Creek.  The following is the story of one of those fish. The river is extremely low this time of year — not surprising — and the fishing was challenging.  It was like fishing on a mirror, the water was so smooth, clear, and slow-moving. On the third morning I walked downstream until I got to a spot where Katy and I had seen fish the day before.  The good news was they were rising.  The bad news was I couldn’t figure out what they were rising to as nothing seemed to be coming off the water.  I suspect they were taking emergers of some type but never really figured it out.  I crawled to the water’s edge and started throwing out the usual suspects — small caddis, morning duns, light cahills, mosquitos, even a royal wulff.  Nothing.  Fish would rise just behind my fly so I hadn’t scared them — they had just taken a long look at my offering and found it wanting.  Ok, that’s not working.  I tried fishing a couple of these wet with the same effect.  Just for kicks I tied on an ant and cast that under a few branches.  Nothing. At this point I was getting a little frustrated — I’d been working this pool for practically two hours, watching fish rise the whole time, and hadn’t been able to elicit so much as a strike.  I suppose I should have been happy that I hadn’t scared them yet either but that seemed an awful small victory at the time.  I also started to feel that perhaps I should have paid a little bit closer attention in biology.  Stupid bugs. I retreated to a rock to sit and think for a minute.  Having thrown every likely dry in my box I decided it was time to (as my brother-in-law would say) turn to the dark side.  I started to tie on a royal coachman for an indicator and a small prince nymph dropper off the back of the hook.  As I was sitting working on my knots I heard a rustling in the brushes across the river.  I turned to see what it was and saw a deer and her fawn emerging on the far bank.  They seemed unfazed by my presence — I’m sure they have seen plenty of people — and proceeded down to the river to drink.  Figuring that they would go elsewhere once they caught a good whiff of me (remember it’s day three folks…), I turned my attention back to the river and cast out the double rig. About halfway through the pool — a drift that seemed like it took five minutes — I heard splashing behind me.  The deer were crossing the current and coming my way.  I stopped watching my fly and watched them walk by, no more than 20 feet away at the tree line.  As an aside, I overheard a lot of people that weekend complaining that the only wildlife they saw were squirrels and scrub jays — they just needed to get out of bed a little early, find a likely spot, and sit quietly for a while.  The park isn’t a zoo, folks.  Anyway. I decided that seeing the deer was a pretty cool thing and that I should be happy about that too.  It was getting late and I needed to be heading back to camp to help out with breakfast.  I rationalized that a couple more casts wouldn’t really make me that late, right?  I could walk a little faster back to camp. I cast out once again, just in front of an overhanging branch.  The coachman slowly drifted under the branch and then, suddenly, gone! Eyes to brain:  MSG URGENT you’ve got a strike…  I set the hook and started working on getting the fish in. A couple splashes and quick runs later I was unhooking a surprised 12" brown trout.  I know that the standard joke is that big fish are big and small fish are "nice" or "pretty" or "jewels" but I never get over the brilliant markings on a brown trout.  So colorful. That pretty much made the morning.  I cut off the flies, put them back in my box, reeled up my line, and humped it back to camp double-time — just in time for a fresh batch of pancakes off the griddle.  My brother-in-law and father-in-law (who had both declined to go with me that morning) did not believe me about my catch, but my wife saw the look in my eye and knew that I had indeed been successful in my hunt. I ended up getting back to this spot later in the afternoon, ready to go at it again, but by then the river was full of kids throwing rocks and splashing around.  The moment to fish that spot had passed — we were leaving the next morning.  I know that a more accomplished angler may have pulled five or six fish out of that pool in the two-plus hours that I worked it, but that one fish was like a reward, payoff for patience and sticking at it. Thanks for reading, BW Brad Williams father of twins — fly fisher — teller of long stories * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Brad, Nice story.. I believe you!  :) Made me want to fish!! -Mark If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story…

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story…

Nice story, glad you got a fish. TL MC

Response:

Nice story Brad.  The smooth water in the meadows is fun to fish, but the fish are easier to catch if you go upstream to where the white water is. The fish are wild since they quit stocking hatchery trout in the park. Ernie Harrison Have you tried a Blood Knot Machine?  http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

If you’d be so kind as to indulge me in a little fish story…

<nice story snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Brad Williams

Response:

Question:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse. I figure if a fish can be caught more then once then its good for the fishery and the fisherman….not the fish. I don’t apologize for killing for sport, but C&R allows me to kill less. Hell golfers kill grass when they golf. I kill insects every day walking down the street. I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – – Views on Ethics Astream – (snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

Jon Cook: <<…..Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever. Perhaps *that* is why Clinton doesn’t fly fish! Just a thought.

Response:

I’ve followed this debate for a couple of years and I keep seeing the same things rehashed.  Has any of the contributors ever learned anything from it and modified their position to suit, or has this become as ritualized as watching Seinfeld reruns to TV eternity? Moe, you and your cronies argue C&R is immoral, shows lack of respect to animals, ruins the rivers etc.  The Ralphians argue that C&R is merely a tool to be employed or not, depending on circumstance.  Morality is irrelevant.  Someone with a Classical education can help me out here, but weren’t there two characters who were condemned for eternity to battle each other.  Well these guys should step aside for we have two new candidates for the job. There is no endgame to this, and maybe that’s the point.  It’s become a Seinfeld substitute.  In chess, repetitive moves can be ruled a stalemate. What else do we have here, but that.  Isn’t it about time somebody recognized that the other side may have made a valid point or two?  If there is no growth, no development in this debate, it just becomes a Usenet WWF tag team match, Moe and the Fish Breaths vs.. Ralphie and the Barbless.  No time limit, no falls, no referee, and eventually no audience. There’s no point me adding my two cents worth on the subject.  Somebody would just misrepresent it and go off on another tangential rant.  We already need half the farms in Iowa just to provide the hay for all the straw men that get built around here.  Can’t anyone see any merit in what the other side is saying, or have you dug your bunkers so deep, you can’t see out of them? KRR — remove nospam from Email address

Response:

: :       well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. : i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or : non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre : of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god : fearing christians, etc." Absolutely, me too. (btw, I only said atheist, so what the other groups have to do with anything, I don’t know). I only assert that it is impossible to tell an atheist they have a moral obligation to something.

You mean all I have to do is become an atheist and I can keep or release as many fish as I want to.  (In the words of Homer Simpson… WHOO HOO!)  I’m switchin’  :-) Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

_______ THIS!  Is exactly the point Johnathan.  That I CAN Catch & Release 8 or more fish a day when I could have killed a limit of 6 instead and quit and gone home, IS just the point. If I can, as a sportsman, catch and release twenty, thirty, or more fish a day and not kill a one, THAT IS THE POINT. Selfish?  You bet.  What’s wrong with the word selfish?  There is nothing wrong with the word selfish, self interest and entertainment as long as that activity does  not demean the resource. Here, look at that stream.  It has six fishermen in it and 72 fish in it.  You’re the Seventh fisherman and all six of THEM catch their limit of six fish each, and then go away. You, on the other hand, that day, caught 36 fish and released them all, not hurting a one for another day. The next day, all six fishermen return and repeat the process because ‘the law’ says they may. You come back the third day and there is nothing left for you. Why do you then not see how beautiful  you are? Mr. G. Fishing only becomes by business when I am one and they are two. ? It means, I am only the minority.

Response:

Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations?

gross mismanagement by the States responsible.  First off, the number one enemy to wild fisheries are when the State starts introducing hatchery fish. Next, there are too many fishermen. etc. The answer is to manage a wild fishery as a wild fishery with no catch and kill allowed.  Any fish that is not handled properly, will die and the carcass will be picked up by an eagle, otter, etc.  BUT what won’t happen is the hand of man will not be allowed to fill an ego.  EGO destroys the size of the breeding stock than anything else. Where a section of stream could handle one catch and kill fisherman a month,  the same stretch can handle many more fly fishermen a week that catch and release. I can promise everyone that barbless hooks are one of the most exciting aspects to catch and release fishing in a century of inventions. Here, we fly fishermen will lose more then what comes to hand, but that we can hook up and get a wiggle or a leap or two before the majority of the fish get free – is reward enough.  This is why I always tell my guests,  "That you at least hooked up and got a turn or one leap, we regard as a fooled fish and caught if it had a barb." How would you like to fish.  With or without a barb?  If you catch and release? Mr. G.

Response:

____ snipped some good stuff: the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.         wayno

for bigger trout and/or fish like Steelhead Wayne? arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggh!   But I’ll do it. You can fish with anything out west you want to as long as its nine feet or more. 8′ 11” ’s won’t do. ; ) Mr. G.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.        wayno well said wayno….. btw…. i never thought I’d be happy to see a return to roff of this timeless debate, it sure beats the g-wars. –Wataugan Walt p

Mr. G.

Response:

: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should.. : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

        well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god fearing christians, etc."  a human being’s treatment of fish, as an animal or a golf ball, may have nothing whatsoever to do with that individual’s philosophy or religion.         this response is not meant to imply that i am directly opposed to your position on what a man does to fish when he tries to catch them.  i just want to make sure that if you posit that only "good people" c&k, then you and i have a difference of opinion. (snip)         wayno

Response:

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? [deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I resent that! I do not chubakka! I think it’s a disgusting and unhealthy habit. Besides my wife wouldn’t tolerate the spitunes! Ralph H

Response:

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? 8^) : : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

oh so that’s the problem Mr Salad was talking about? : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

atheism does not equal amoralism. (BTW I officialy consider myself agnostic – I suspect there is a god but I have no idea what shape it takes – I suspect as people this shape is beyond our comprehension – but I have real trouble with the idea – since by definition it is beyond…) So you can put your prejudices away. I’d also say God’s expression and resolution of ethical and moral issues is perplexing to say the least. If you believe that man *does have* some sort of prescribed relationship to animals, that the term "animal abuse" can be meaningful in a moral or ethical way, then you have to decide what the ramifications are to that. It might involve how you fish.

 How might it unless you are a Hindu or animist – even then I don’t believe the ascribe the sort of ethical considerations you might give to fish on some obscure religious basis. I’d ask you to be more specific but I don’t think you can. Anyone else? Mr Salad? Ralph H

Response:

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum?

[deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo

And now I come in and ask if the conditions at these places are due to C&R being implemented or due to a population increase in population centers around those area.  Is C&R the cause or the affect? …Continue ad infiniteum… What were we supposed to do?  Blue 22 or something like that? Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

[deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r.

Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . . . Places I wouldn’t fish on a bet.  And I doubt you would either once you realized the score…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo .

so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations? BTW I am accepting all these rivers are strictly c&r – no slots no trophy bags. – excepting of course the San Juan – as has been pointed out you have repeatedly misrepresented the regs on that river. Ralph H

Response:

[deleted] I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing.

[deleted] That is correct. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream?

Culling (Selective Harvest) is an ancient form of managing a natural resource. C&R is a 30 year old Knee-Jerk non-solution that allows rod manufacturers to multiply. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse… ? Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where

. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution.

ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? C&R is hardly a knee jerk response but has evolved over a period of generations. For generations it’s been accepted to let some fish – they are too small, they’re spawning, they are the wrong species. Some fishers then realized they could let many more go and provide more fish for themselves and for others tomorrow and the next year and in the next generation. Look at the results –  in many cases it worked – waters empty of mature fish repopulated with fish of all age classes. It’s hard as an angler to accept arguments that those populations of fish are worse off because of c&r. I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. C&R is a technique or tool – neither particular ethical or unethical in and of itself. As in most aspects of life ethical issues in fishing are not black and white as you seem to portray. Some examples; a recent email from a fisherman in England said tho’ the minimum size limit on his local waters is 7 inches he doesn’t kill anything under 9. Haig-Brown wrote he had a personal limit of 14 inches for much of his angling life on Vancouver Island when during that time the legal limit varied from 8 inches to nil. Are these anglers ‘playing’ with the life of other beings? How different are their rules from c&r? If there is a defined point where conservation says to release or kill how can anyone do otherwise without ‘breaking’ your ethical boundaries into sadism? What of other anglers who impose such limits on themselves? Who sets the limits and decides what’s the ethical and what is not? Do we want legislated morality that says we can only fish to kill and must kill what we catch? And of course this gets back to the question I posed some time ago and recently you Mr Salad – Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Ralph H

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- Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions. He does not fear the ridicule of others, for he knows that he could fill his limit if he wished. He counts as his highest reward the number of fish put back into the river for another day. He may bring in fish now and then if someone has expressed a desire for them, but he loves his fishing far to much to spoil it with wanton killing of the trout." Locating a large steelhead or salmon is the greatest thrill for the angler, for here is an adversary worthy of his skill. He may try for the fish for hours or even days without success, and still return home satisfied. Its not the dozens of fish taken that one remembers, but those few heavy, trophy steelhead taken or lost under difficult conditions we remember best. Just the knowledge that a big fish is present adds flavor to a pool or a secret place. Beginners may ask why one fishes if he is to release his catch. They fail to see that the `live steelhead’ or trout sucking in the fly and fighting the rod is the entire point of our sport. Dead fish are just so much lifeless meat. If food is the reason for fishing, then the fish market is a cheaper place to obtain it. We cannot begrudge the local angler his fish and the limits of the law for these are honorable reasons to fish, but the man who travels hundreds of miles and even thousands of miles to fish the stream is paying $50 for each pound of fish. When one stops to consider his motivation in the light of economics, it becomes obvious that he fishes for the sport and not the meat and more importantly . . . not to display his ego. Consider that the Clearwater and Snake Rivers are some of the finest Steelhead waters in the United States.  It’s a shame that I have yet to see anyone release one steelhead yet and it’s curious in the manner that the fish are kept by almost everyone in the area.  Consider the fact a suffocating demise is a torturous and hideous inconsideration. Here, a fish kept should be killed humanely with a sharp rap behind the head. He should be dressed immediately and his remains thrown away from the river for wildlife, not into the river. Again, as Ernie Schwiebert has so well put it, in his book Matching the Hatch, "The subject of etiquette along a river is difficult, for I hesitate to preach about sins that have been mine in the past. The regard for the rights of others is of primary concern and the inconsiderate fellow who shoulders in when you have taken a fish, wades through the water you are fishing, or the rafter who does the same, or proceeds to cast over the fish that you are working, is a thoughtless boor. There is no caste system on trout waters. The fish will rise to the crude fly dappled by the backwoods native as well as to the daintily imported one cast by the wealthy financier." Specific rules in angling etiquette are few, and common courtesy is the basis. It is poor form to enter a stream not far above another if he is fishing in that direction. The skillful angler doesn’t disturb the water much, but the beginner is likely to frighten the fish and put them down for some time. The large power-boat-owner that does not keep an gentleman’s eye upon the banks for wading fisherman or tube fisherman and who recklessly and wantonly allows his massive boat’s wake to attack the innocent people is quite simply, an ass and is a lawless, loose-cannon that cares little for the lives or safety of others fishing or using the joys a river provides. One should realize his own capabilities and enter the stream at a discreet distance above or below another man. The first man in the river has the right of way and we should not disturb his fun for he would most likely not disturb yours. Noticing your kindness is more apt to bring an invite and win you a lifelong friend, for along the river you are bound to find the best of mankind. As a matter of tradition the man wading upstream has the right of way, since the gentleman coming down is more likely to spoil the former’s chances. The one wading down should retire from the water and move unobtrusively around him. Often the inconsiderate will acknowledge the right of way and then wade noisily past or walk along in plain view of the fish. Don’t do this. Rafters, kayakers, drift boats and power boats should go behind the wading fisherman at a good distance, as they will pass in only a few seconds but the fisherman is left with nearly a half hour before his spooked fish return. I consider this thoughtlessness intolerable for some men will wade into position in the presence of a fish of a lifetime in almost impossible water and to a rafter the same water is a breeze. On the other hand, just because there is a rafter-kayaker-boater on the river doesn’t mean that the fishing is ruined just in his passing. But that the passing should be a pleasant experience for all parties concerned and not just one-sided, is the point.  Power boaters should always keep in mind that a fisherman wading is a "No Wake Zone." In being a writer, I want to capture the interest of as many as I possibly can. But to say that I’m here to win a popularity contest is a misconception, regarding fishing.  However, the Snake and Clearwater Rivers are fantastic, original and unique resources in this area around Clarkston Washington and today, they are but a whisper of what they once were in the past. Yet, their recreational powers are awesome and in this expanding population of America the use of their recreational attributes are on the increase as the quality of life of the rivers decrease.  We lack disaplines all across this nation with all our rivers and streams. We . . . you . . . and I, have long realized how precious our rivers are. The income that the Snake and Clearwater Drainage’s pulls into our area amounts in the millions of dollars each year. Behavioral examples we set will be the same examples others will follow in the future when it comes to river etiquette’s and their care.  Each fly fisherman must always ‘regard’ the quality of his waters and vanguard them. Many waters we fish are bordered by private property and we should respect that.  However;  cattle and livestock have little sanitary excuses, to be down by these rivers because it’s well known their filthy, polluting ways are not tolerated well by many forms of wildlife.  Cattle however, can be easily frightened and stampeded by the thoughtless angler with a resultant loss in weight or chance of injury. One ill-tempered bull can wrong many rights here . . . so shy away from cattle,  if you can, until they can be moved away from the river by authorized personnel when they are in areas they do not belong in.  Like it or not, there are too many ranchers that push the tolerance envelopes of common sense and who literally steal  habitat not belonging to them or the cattle they let roam, many times, irresponsibly. The hardest article to write is this kind because it can sound so quickly as if one is preaching. Some landowners who allow fishing build gates or stiles for fishermen to cross their fences, but then there is always some anarchist who carries wire-cutters or pliers to pull the staples. We can hardly blame the owners of posted land in some instances – but there is no law against landowners who never cared about sportsmen in the first place either.  When kindness is shown, we need to safeguard and protect those accesses to rivers passing through private properties.  Yet, the laws of propriety state that if we allow grazing on public lands at great monetary advantage to the Rancers, the habitat destruction and over-grazing they incure upon US as a society does not give them the right to be inconsiderate of gentle anglers wishing simply to savor trout waters shut off to them by fences and in many cases, illegally. The cardinal sin so often committed is the disfiguring of water or the land along it and we know today that the majority of it is done by people who are twenty five years of age and younger. A large majority still being in school . . . like it or not.  The younger generation today cannot keep clean even their bedrooms let alone being able to wear their pants above the crack of their ass. They seem to continue the contents and conditions of their bedrooms into the out-of-doors and it’s a national disgrace their parents allow such bedrooms which are their own report cards of undisciplined children to exist but it is our fault we let them disgrace the outdoors. The refuse that litters the rivers and adjacent beaches and campsites if often quite astonishing. But recent field trips prove the road-sides to contain much more trash than our local beaches do. In Hell’s Canyon, where the beaches are provided trash containers, the public uses them. But along the road on the Snake River where they are NOT provided, the roadside is a pig-sty. I cannot think of anything that makes the general public (who are by the majority,  clean) more irritated than to see a beer hog throw his can down. I guess, I can say it makes me annoyed too. I’ll admit that. Yet, if I let the hot flash pass, I have that big pocket in the back of my vest and I always try and bring two cans out every time I go to the river. It isn’t much, but we won’t have to look at it the next time we go back. Our Clearwater and Snake Rivers and ALL Rivers and Streams will continue to please many of us if we remember  a thought Isaac Walton wrote in 1653. "He that hopes to be a good angler must not only bring an inquiring, searching, observing wit; but he must also bring a large measure of hope and patience." In these days of hard-fished waters, ethics and philosophy play an ever increasing role in our enjoyment, and to Father Walton’s measure of hope and patience, let me add the spice … read more »

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was posted fragmented, but I will leave it alone because everyone should beable to get the gist of it.  My apologies. gg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – todemean the subject matter at hand.  Ernie is a friend of mine as are everyone of you here are.  I’ve seen and done maybe something that wasn’t classy, but so have I seen the best of men screw up.  These events are not the litmus paper high marks that define a man’s life Ernie, and you know it. Ernie Schwiebert has had a terrific impact on the behavior of fly fishermen astream just because of his book "Matching the Hatch."  I don’t need confirmation of this fact from anyone because I have seen how dynamic his writings and works have been on our sport and the majority of his work has all been positive.  To my mind, after Lee Wulff died, the next icon that has the stature and body of work that is of a positive force is Ernest Schwiebert.  There is no questioning the sincerity this man brings to our streams.  We are fortunate to have such a genius that fly fishes, among us. I don’t expect  you are a great body of the men here to agree with me.  There was a period of a feeding frenzy regarding Ernie several years back and it had nothing to do with holding up a preserved fish.  Mr. Schwiebert has already mentioned that he is slow to talk about indiscretions that he may have committed himself in the past. Now what do we do?  Hit  him with this sort of inventory taking again, and again, and again?  I think not. I know this about Ernie Schwiebert.  Of late and I know he is still working on it, he has put his name and monetary fortune on the line fighting the corruption that had infested the guiding and booking agents there.  Mr. Schwiebert and company, some of which might be reading this group now, had guns pointed at them and the story is a complicated one.  Mr. Schwiebert will be the first to tell me I shouldn’t be talking about this here . . . but this is the kind of man he is.  He is fighting legal issues in Russia so we Americans can enjoy that which is basically corrupt. The Russian Government has been patient and are listening with interest to the case. This is a financial costly process and who is doing it for us?  Ernie Schwiebert. Frankly, he can kill a fish now and then all he wants.  BUT!  I understand your point Ernie Harrison and it is a good one.  Let’s not use it however to demean the man nor the good intent Ethics Astream is supposed to bring into our lives. Keep the fly in the ring of the rise. Sincerely, George Gehrke

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– Views on Ethics Astream –

(snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount.   I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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I hate to burst your bubble but Schweibert was holding a large dead trout for a picture which appeared with his article in a fly fishing magazine. The caption said the trout was released back to the river, but the eyes said "Dead Fish" and I later heard that it had been frozen for a week so he could have his picture taken with it.   I wrote a letter to the magazine saying and said Mr. Schweibert should not pollute our rivers with dead fish, but never received a reply. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. <snip I am haunted by memories. Ethics in our lives makes them more perfect. gg

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– Views on Ethics Astream – [deleted] Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction.

[deleted] Ernie Schwiebert never envisioned a hundred fly fishermen whoring his beloved frying pan. (My friend who is a licensed outfitter on the frying pan had [last week] a woman client pose topless with an 8 inch rainbow she had caught (then released) for a photograph.   This is what contempt for wildlife catch and release brings to the sport Ernie, George. I can no longer set forth with a clean conscience in those hallowed waters fouled by greed). Ernest Schwiebert had no idea to what level man in his greed would prostitute this notion (Bassmasters, One Fly…perhaps the worst of all "The Walleye Trail"). I doubt that (seeing these things) anyone could today preach this ill-founded ("Matching The Hatch", 1953) notion as some kind of manifest ethical destiny of the sport. C&R is not the bastion of sporting ethics you mistakingly believe it to be George. You are not the kingpin of ethicity you claim to be and I can prove it. The beautiful rainbow that you hold proudly on the photo at www.gink.com, …. Is the scale so slight that we can not see a creature that had just fought his lifes battle is now gasping to breathe in a suffocating foreign environment whose internal organs are crushing themselves as you hoist it one handed to be photographed ? Releasing it (whether it lives or not) wipes clean the slate for you ? What then of Ernest’s words "He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions", can you (given your product, your website, this photograph) honestly claim to stand up to your own (Ernest’s) ethical standards ? Is the lens of our bias so out-of-focus that we can no longer see nor feel the error in this philosphy? Is the man that promotes the ’sport’ of fishing, perhaps, is the most unethical sportsman of all?. A fisherman launches his dory on an abandoned Maine beach seeking to catch fish to eat, to feed his family, or too sell.  No desire to simply catch a fish, photograph it for publicity.  He has no website with his picture on it. Aware of his role in nature, his requirement to respect nature and wildlife.  The unwritten contract of mankind.  Where we need to evolve to. This man, he is less ethical than you because he is just a ‘fisherman’ and not a ’sports-fisherman’? On his way home, "The Enlightened Ones" [standing in the surf with equipment worth more than some peoples cars] they can feel justified in shouting "why did you kill those fish ?" in some kind of Schwiebertesque chorous because they read your post on the internet or they thump "Matching The Hatch" as some kind of ‘bible’ ? Try Ernest’s half-logic on some rube, George. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Question:

When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

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Gordon MacQuarrie stories, published in the 40’s and 50’s in outdoor magazines, were collected in 3 volumes as "Stories of the Old Duck Hunters", "More Stories of the ODHs" and (I think) "Last Stories of the ODHs".  About half the stories are hunting, half are fishing, mainly on the Brule.  Then there was a fourth volume, "Lost Stories of the ODH", which was stuff they missed the first time thru. Gordon MacQuarrie is my favorite fishing author.  Traver and Gierach and others get as good occasionally, but every MacQuarrie story is excellent.  Henry VanDyke is a close second.   Frank Stetzer                        "…a cheerful comrade is better Employed by, but not speaking for     foot-warmer."  Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA     "Fisherman’s Luck", 1899. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

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When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.   — jm

Its a good bet that it was Gordon MacQuarrie. Check out this book (info from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1572230258/t/002-4166657-7704468) I got this book for Christmas and have read it twice already. Jim Fly Fishing With MacQuarrie by Zack Taylor, Gordon MacQuarrie List: $19.50 Our Price: $13.65 You Save: $5.85 (30%) Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days. Hardcover Published by Willow Creek Pr Dimensions (in inches): 0.97 x 10.26 x 7.23 ISBN: 1572230258 — Jim Jacoby Mt. Horeb, WI To send a reply, remove "-take_this_out-" from the address.

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When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books.  

Beats me!  I used to fish the brule a lot when I was a kid, and learned to flyfish there. To me it still stands as one of the most beautiful trout rivers on this planet – absolutely gorgeous.   I don’t reacll anyone writng about it at length.  There has been an article or two, and honorable mentions in guidebooks. It was in it’s time VERY popular nationally.  Teddy Roosevelt fished the Cedar Island water.  Calvin Coolidge liked the Brule so much they named the hwy that follows it south from US 2 after him.  Dwight Eisenhower had friends with a house at the lower end of Big Lake, and fished there often. I suspect that many other notables fished there too. If there is a book out there that speaks of the Brule, I’d love to find a copy. BTW:  what prompted this teacher to use that book.  Why did it stick with you?  have you ever been there?  A thread on the Brule would be a pleasant diversion – I do have a story or two of my own about her. </chaz

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Perhaps we had the same teacher.  My fourth grade teacher read me "Rascal", by Sterling North.   This is a heart-rendering book set in Southern Wisconsin, during the 1910’s, about a boy and his pet racoon.  Part of the book relates the wonderful trip that Sterling and Rascal had to northern Wisconsin, much of it along the Brule.  I recently read the book to my children and they love the story as much as I did then and still do now.  A definite top ten book in my life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books. — jm

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Thanks for the help from folks.  To answer Chaz’s questions.  I think he read from it because he loved fishing.  I think I remember it because it sounded like such a great place and it was in Wisconsin.   My question was prompted because I work at Wisc Public Television and we are working on a show about fishing in Wisconsin for Aug 99 and the Brule will be featured in the show.   jm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW:  what prompted this teacher to use that book.  Why did it stick with you?  have you ever been there?  A thread on the Brule would be a pleasant diversion – I do have a story or two of my own about her. </chaz

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gordon MacQuarrie stories, published in the 40’s and 50’s in outdoor magazines, were collected in 3 volumes as "Stories of the Old Duck Hunters", "More Stories of the ODHs" and (I think) "Last Stories of the ODHs".  About half the stories are hunting, half are fishing, mainly on the Brule.  Then there was a fourth volume, "Lost Stories of the ODH", which was stuff they missed the first time thru. Gordon MacQuarrie is my favorite fishing author.  Traver and Gierach and others get as good occasionally, but every MacQuarrie story is excellent.  Henry VanDyke is a close second. Frank Stetzer                        "…a cheerful comrade is better Employed by, but not speaking for     foot-warmer."  Henry Van Dyke, Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA     "Fisherman’s Luck", 1899. When I was young, a teacher of mine read from a book about fly fishing on the Brule river in Wisconsin.  Wondering if anyone knows the name of that writer or the name of any of those books. — jm

This is my first post in a NG.  Absolutely, yessir, right on, AMEN. MacQuarrie is without peer.  Every one of his short stories a classic. I fished the Bois Brule in Northwestern WI (not to be confused with the "Border Brule" in Upper Michigan) for the first time last summer.  It was just great visiting the places MacQuarrie mentions in his writings.  It was like visiting an old friend.  I will be back again this year.  Then maybe someday the Roaring Fork and Frying Pan in CO and maybe someday the Yellowstone area with all the great spots out there.   Then maybe ….?

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<snip   My question was prompted because I work at Wisc Public Television and we are working on a show about fishing in Wisconsin for Aug 99 and the Brule will be featured in the show.   jm

Kewl! If you have any say in what gets filmed take a look at the water around Cedar Island.  Used be a resort/lodge – lately owned by the Ordway family.  Classic, beautiful trout water.  I used to sneak into the lower end when I was a kid, and fish my brains out. Teddy Rooselvelt fished there.  Stories tell that before teddy arrived, the folks at the hatchery downriver in Brule netted out a bunch of big brood fish they usually kept in a big pool, put them in one of the rearing runs and starved them for a couple days.  The day before The Man arrived at Cedar Island they turned these hungry monsters loose in a side channel with pools the lodge owners had dug for their guests.  The President would be assured of "good fishing". Another good run would be just below Big Lake.  Wildcat Rapids.  There’s no public access to this water except by canoe, so it won’t be real crowded.  This was my favorite stretch as a kid.  The Caretaker for one of the properties there was a friend of my Grandpa’s and would let us in when the owners weren’t around.  I’d give my eyeteeth to get back in there, I can tell you.  In fact there could be an angle here – local boy returns to his favorite water after 30 years – hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm – pay my way out and I’ll talk to my agent;-).  After we’re done filming, we’ll ditch the camera ops and I’ll take you over to the White. And I’d love to see your show. </chaz

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This is a copy of a press release about a Wisconsin fishing program in current production.  If you have stories or if you know great story tellers, we’d like to see and hear it.  Get your hands on a video camera and follow the instructions below.  Thanks.   xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :-  xxx :- xxx :-  xxx :-  

FISH TALES SOUGHT FOR Wisconsin Public Television SPECIAL         It’s been said that every angler has a great story to tell, and Wisconsin Public Television wants to hear yours!         WPT is preparing a special on fishing in Wisconsin that will air in August 1999.  As part of the effort, we’re seeking fish stories from anglers all over Wisconsin.         "We’re looking for all kinds of tales," says producer JoAnne Garrett. "Not just the stories about the biggest fish or the longest struggle, although we’d like those, too.  We also want to hear about how fishing helped form family bonds and family memories, stories about fishing that touch the heart."         Tale spinners with humorous stories also are sought.         Stories should be documented on VHS tape with a video camera.  Send tapes to: Fish Tales, c/o JoAnne Garrett, Wisconsin Public Television, 821 University Ave., Madison WI 53706.  Deadline is Sept. 1.  If you want your tape returned, please enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Jon Miskowski Wisconsin Public Television

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Question:

Heading up to Mammoth in a couple of days (my wife has to go up there for a meeting, poor me getting dragged along ). I’m going to fish Hot Creek for the first time, but I’ve got lots of additional time to fill. I’m kinda looking for something other than the usual Mammoth Lakes, and I’m looking for any suggestions on a couple of lakes. Specifically, I’m thinking of taking my float tube in to McLeod Lake, which I’ve only read about. Any one fished it recently?  I’ve also read about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road down there, but I can’t remember the name. Lastly, I’ve got to make at least one trip up to Lee Vining, and thought about fishing Lundy. Has anyone ever floated it. Any pre-trip suggestions would be helpful. I’ll post a report when I get back. Also, there was a guy named Mark Heskett who wrote a little book on fishing the Mammoth area. I corresponded with him a few times on the Internet a couple of years ago, but haven’t seen him turning up here. Does anyone know if he’s still around. Roger

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<<*SNIP*  I’ve also read about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road down there, but I can’t remember the name.  *SNIP* Hi Roger, If you are planning on driving down by Devil’s Postpile, be sure to drive in before 7 am.  They close the road and run a shuttle after that and you don’t want to try to take your tube on the shuttle.  By the way the shuttle only goes to Devil’s Postpile and no farther. Give The Trout Fly in Mammoth lakes a call at (619) 934-2517 and they can give you somemore info.                                      Good Fishing,                                                Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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0] : Heading up to Mammoth in a couple of days (my wife has to go up there : for a meeting, poor me getting dragged along ). : I’m going to fish Hot Creek for the first time, but I’ve got lots of : additional time to fill. I’m kinda looking for something other than the : usual Mammoth Lakes, and I’m looking for any suggestions on a couple of : lakes. : Specifically, I’m thinking of taking my float tube in to McLeod Lake, : which I’ve only read about. Any one fished it recently?  I’ve also read : about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard : fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road : down there, but I can’t remember the name. Lastly, I’ve got to make at : least one trip up to Lee Vining, and thought about fishing Lundy. Has : anyone ever floated it. : Any pre-trip suggestions would be helpful. I’ll post a report when I get : back. : Also, there was a guy named Mark Heskett who wrote a little book on : fishing the Mammoth area. I corresponded with him a few times on the : Internet a couple of years ago, but haven’t seen him turning up here. : Does anyone know if he’s still around. : Roger If you are going to fish Hot Creek, I would also suggest taking a look at the wild trout section of the upper Owens–up from Benton Crossing. It’s only a couple of miles from Hot Creek and there’s lots more of it and lots less angler pressure. It’s just this year got new fencing to keep the cows out– people access no problem–lots of walk-through gates. Good luck! Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (415)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

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Heading up to Mammoth in a couple of days (my wife has to go up there for a meeting, poor me getting dragged along ). Specifically, I’m thinking of taking my float tube in to McLeod Lake, which I’ve only read about. Any one fished it recently?  I’ve also read about Sotcher Lake down in the Devils Postpile area, which I’ve heard fishes pretty good in the morning. There’s another lake off the road down there, but I can’t remember the name. Lastly, I’ve got to make at least one trip up to Lee Vining, and thought about fishing Lundy. Has anyone ever floated it. Any pre-trip suggestions would be helpful. I’ll post a report when I get back. Roger

Hi Roger, I don

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I should have posted this a week ago, but was lazy. I fished Slate and Cedar Runs from 5/20-5/23.  Pine Creek had no action whatsoever — fish or fly-wise.  We had several decent (but still slow) days on Slate and Cedar.  Slate and Cedar had hatches of little yellow stoneflies everyday all day, a few Hendricksons early in the week, and then some grey caddises, March Browns, and especially Sulphurs (rotundas) later in the week.  Some big clusters of spinners in the evening, but no major spinner fall.  We had our best success, in descending order, with dry March Browns, dry little yellow stoneflies, Hendrickson, March Brown and sulphur emergers, and dry caddis patterns. The fishing was tough.  Even the old-timers were complaining — and bitterly so about Pine Creek, claiming it was the worst they’d seen in 30 years. The weather was fine.  The week before there was a half inch of snow; four days later it was 95 degrees.  But that week it was warm and mostly dry. I heard one story of a gutted Pine Creek fish with an empty stomach. The explanation was that the the streambed had been scoured by the floods and the hatches were shot.  Then I heard another story — a gutted Pine Creek fish with a stomach gorged with nymphs.  Both fish were caught by bait fisherman.  Having turned over a few rocks on the banks I can say that there are certainly nymphs in the water, although apparently the hatches have not been very impressive by local standards.  The few times I stopped at the river I saw few flies, littel bird activity and no surface feeding at all.  Water was still high as well.  Over the phone one of the guys at the tackle shop tried to sound encouraging to a propsective fisherman by metioning that a few chubs had been taken on dries. In sum, Slate and Cedar Runs were slow but worthwhile, though Pine Creek was dead. Genesee beer was excellent, as was Pabst and Schmitts — also Red Man. Oh, and if you want to go to a spooky bar, go to the Wagon Wheel in town of Camaal (sp?), just south of Slate Run.

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Pine Creek is excellent now:  24 fish evening on dries…sulphurs, grey foxes…only  a few more days to green and brown drake hatches!!!

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Pine Creek is excellent now:  24 fish evening on dries…sulphurs, grey foxes…only  a few more days to green and brown drake hatches!!!

Is this the same Pine Creek of the famous "Grand Canyon of the East?" If so, where do you fish in relation to the aforementioned "Grand Canyon?"

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Is this the same Pine Creek of the famous "Grand Canyon of the East?" If so, where do you fish in relation to the aforementioned "Grand Canyon?"

Yes, It is.  You can fish the Canyon itself; if you don’t mind hiking; canoeing it; or have a Mt. Bike and a tuff ass!  AVOID THE WEEKENDS!

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I turned back to the 444SL after I tried othrs. The LASER line is very nice to cast and floats very high (makes line pickup easier), but: all this only for a very short time (I used it for only one season!). The hard coating is worn out very fast and you have to replace the line. The Wulf Triangel taper is very nice to fish, too. I used it in the 3/4 and 5/6 weight. Rollcasting is much fun and, especially with the 3/4, presentation of drys to very shy trout is terrific. The disadvantage, especially for the 3/4, is that it is very hard to transport heavier or more wind resistant flies. I now returned to the 444SL which can do the job much better: Very long casts are much easier with the 444SL, rollcasting nearly as good as with the TT, but if the situation requires it, I can also tie on a heavy stremer or a heavy weigthed nymph with a few split shots with still comfortable casting.                             Thomas

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If anyone needs a Cortland Fly line or has any questions about

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I used a 444SL for many trouble-free years.  In fact, I wore it out — the first line that I ever killed.  I’ve been thinking about giving the Lazer line a try, but have been playing around with Lee Wulf’s Triangle taper, as well as a few others.  Give me your pros and cons on the 444SL and the Lazer Line, with regard to durability, floatability.  Thanks.

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I used a 444SL for many trouble-free years.  In fact, I wore it out — the first line that I ever killed.  I’ve been thinking about giving the Lazer line a try, but have been playing around with Lee Wulf’s Triangle taper, as well as a few others.  Give me your pros and cons on the 444SL and the Lazer Line, with regard to durability, floatability.  Thanks.

According to the folks at FEATHER-CRAFT Fly Fishing in St. Louis, 444SL is designed specifically for fast-action rods, is stiffer than most lines and is considered 1/4 weight higher than it’s rating.  The Lazer line are supposed to be best for light action rods because it loads the rod quickly for short casts.  

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Belize has incredible bonefish and permit fishing. Turneffe   Flats is geared to flyfishers and is one of the more   conservation minded lodges. Excellent guides and boats. Fly   Fishing Online has a group trip going there in September/95.   Call me if you want more info at 800 360-9731 or check out our   web site(see url below). Ken   Fly Fishing Online http://www.flyfishing-online.com

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Been to El Pescador on Ambregas Cay (spelling??) lots of small, dumb bonefish…but fun. Tarpon fishing OK…moderate sized fish plus long , hot, slow,  boat rides daily. J.O’C.

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Looking for information of Belize in late fall. Have you fished it, what were your impressions? Lodges, agents and the such, someone mentioned the Blue Marlin something or the other. If you’ve heard anything let me know.

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I’d like to second Ken’s vote for Turneffe Flats Lodge.  I go down there every year in the fall–try to get there before the first cold fronts come through in early November–and always have fun.  The most reliable bonefishing I’ve ever seen, relaxed, flexible pace, very pleasant guides. I may be going there at the end of July to help them explore tarpon fishing.  If anything exciting happens I’ll post it. Marshall Cutchin

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Looking for information of Belize in late fall. Have you fished it, what were your impressions? Lodges, agents and the such, someone mentioned the Blue Marlin something or the other. If you’ve heard anything let me know.

Haven’t fished it in late fall, only in spring, but hear from guides that the tarpon fishing is excellent in Sept/Oct.  Pressure is lower as well. We stayed in Holiday Hotel in San Pedro on Ambergris Caye and fished with local guides.  The guides were generally very good, as was the tarpon and bonefishing.  Staying in San Pedro is a different experience than a lodge situation, but you get to experience the Belizean people more, there is more nightlife, etc.  if you want the fishing and other things to do, this is a really fun trip.  email me if you want more info.                  /                 /                   John Woodling                /                    Sacramento, CA                   <     <

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Question:

Has anyone fished for Pink Salmon in the Seattle, WA area? When do they come into the rivers?  Are they different from Chum Salmon? I’m going to be up in the Seattle, WA area in late July. Thanks for the info. -steve

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Has anyone fished for Pink Salmon in the Seattle, WA area? When do they come into the rivers?  Are they different from Chum Salmon? I’m going to be up in the Seattle, WA area in late July. Thanks for the info. -steve

I fished them extensively in 91 and 93 on the Skagit river, WA.  If anyone is interested, email me and we can talk. In short: They are vastly different to chum.  Spawning pinks are strictly 2yr old fish, and vary from about 3-5 pounds (a 6-8pound is a lunker).  Chums are various ages and are much larger.  Pinks seem to aggressively hit certain fly patterns and small spoons of pink and white color.  The prime of the chum run is usually about late Oct-late Nov.  My records show that the first pink I caught in 1993 was on 23 August.  I can’t find my book from 1991, but it was within a week of that.  The first 2 weeks in Sept are the best. Around here, Pinks run in only a few rivers.  The ones that come to mind starting north and working south (there are more but these are the major runs):         Skagit, Stilliguamish, Snohomish system, Nisqually Oh, and due to this strict 2 year cycle and some catastrophic event, there is only a run during odd-numbered years like this year.  There is also a 4 year cycle, and this is the best of that cycle.  1995 should hold many fish.  Chum run every year. Without exaggerating, a dozen fish in a mornings fishing was not at all uncommon.  My numbers from the "down" year of 1993 show large numbers of fish. I’ll stop now before I start (continue?) babbling. talk to you later,         -tgades

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Pinks are also known as humpys, the previous post cover most other   points. Chums turn dark early and pinks have a slimey feel.

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Pinks are also known as humpys (sp) I ahve found that almost anything   that works for silvers also works for pinks but that they run deeper on   average.  Chum turn dark early and do not bite as well out side of fresh   water concentrations.  Pinks tend to be oilyer and slimy but taste great   if processed soon after landing.

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