Question:
A Merry Christmas to all of you. I hope Santa will make one of your special (fly fishing)wishes true. Take care and tight lines Wim
Response:
Its already started. My wife asked me what kind of fly fishing stuff I wanted for Christmas. I had just received a Hunter’s Angling fly tying catalogue and marked it up, flagged the pages, and gave it to her for shopping. Earlier this week she came in with the catalogue in hand, said "Merry Christmas! Order everything you marked!" I shot off the order and the box arrived yesterday. My fly tying bench is overloaded with goodies. Most of this batch was for saltwater flys with a few tools thrown in. At the January fly fishing show in College Park I get to spend my other Christmas present, a SIGNIFICANT contribution to my fly fishing war chest! let’s see……wading boots, Teton reel for my Connor rod, hackle, gotta buy hackle, don’t need hackle (got nearly 3 dozen necks and saddles, but what the hey, you can’t have too many) so I’ll buy some hooks, maybe a full-dressed salmon fly or two to hang on the wall, Teeny line for my new Teton reel…..gotta be something else, so far I have cash left over from my shopping list. Maybe I’d better save some for Penns. I’m booked with Jonas at Feathered Hook for the nights of May 16 – 20. Imagine having to pass through a fly shop EVERY day BEFORE BREAKFAST! arrrrggghhhh! Better leave all my credit cards at home and just take the leftover Christmas funds. Come to thnk of it, it will be AFTER the fly fishing show, list or no list, there won’t be anything left! — Wayne (commercial….too damn commercial…unless its fly fishing stuff) To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A Merry Christmas to all of you. I hope Santa will make one of your special (fly fishing)wishes true. Take care and tight lines Wim
Response:
Its already started. My wife asked me what kind of fly fishing stuff I wanted for Christmas. I had just received a Hunter’s Angling fly tying catalogue and marked it up, flagged the pages, and gave it to her for shopping.
I tried the same thing with Cabelas’ fly fishing catalog. When I got done, just about all the pages were dog-eared. After the laughter subsided I was told to make a list, so I went to cabelas.com and made a 3-page wish list. This sport is tough – so much gear, so little $$. — TL, Tim
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Its already started. My wife asked me what kind of fly fishing stuff I wanted for Christmas. I had just received a Hunter’s Angling fly tying catalogue and marked it up, flagged the pages, and gave it to her for shopping. I tried the same thing with Cabelas’ fly fishing catalog. When I got done, just about all the pages were dog-eared. After the laughter subsided I was told to make a list, so I went to cabelas.com and made a 3-page wish list. This sport is tough – so much gear, so little $$.
My bosses gave me a $200 gift certificate which I can choose to get in any denominations of $10 and up at any of many listed stores. I was delighted and told my husband about it, saying that Cabella’s was one of the stores. He got that look and I now figure I’ll have to half of it at the nearest really good restaurant and only do half at Cabella’s. Damn. Should have kept my mouth shut? — rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing. Often taunted by trout. Very slow on replying to email. http://www.visi.com/~cyli
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Cyli, you must learn something which guys pass on to each other early on in the locker room conversations. NEVER…repeat NEVER give up how much you really got, the fact you got anything at all, where you might spend it, or what you bought with it! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!! You will also get VERY creative about explaining how certain new gear turns up. Keep in mind, these are not lies; just things we tell the opposite sex to keep them from worrying about things which they should never have to be concerned with in the first place. — Wayne (maybe I’ll make a video about this and market it through Neiman Markus) To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its already started. My wife asked me what kind of fly fishing stuff I wanted for Christmas. I had just received a Hunter’s Angling fly tying catalogue and marked it up, flagged the pages, and gave it to her for shopping. I tried the same thing with Cabelas’ fly fishing catalog. When I got done, just about all the pages were dog-eared. After the laughter subsided I was told to make a list, so I went to cabelas.com and made a 3-page wish list. This sport is tough – so much gear, so little $$. My bosses gave me a $200 gift certificate which I can choose to get in any denominations of $10 and up at any of many listed stores. I was delighted and told my husband about it, saying that Cabella’s was one of the stores. He got that look and I now figure I’ll have to half of it at the nearest really good restaurant and only do half at Cabella’s. Damn. Should have kept my mouth shut? — rbc:vixen,Minnow Goddess,Willow Watcher,and all that sort of thing. Often taunted by trout. Very slow on replying to email. http://www.visi.com/~cyli
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Question:
First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes:
The guy obviously wants a "yes" or "no" answer, Richard. Cut the bullshit. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/
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First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes: The guy obviously wants a "yes" or "no" answer, Richard. Cut the bullshit.
Well, give him Lefty’s answer…
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That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer.
If a beginner fortunate enough to have a friend, acquaintance, fellow club member, etc, who is a competent tyer, and is willing to spend a little time with him, (or her), that is likely the best way to learn the fine points of fly dressing. Whether you are tying or buying, IMHO, that is the best way to go. I have had the good fortune to be associated with several excellent tyers over the last thirty odd years, and most of the limited skills I have, came from observing and talking to them. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"
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Modern tyers who discuss such matters in their writing, ala Gierach, seem to average between 12 and 24 flies an hour, depending on pattern, so let’s say 18 an hour.
I average 4 flies per hour. When tying for last year’s ROFF fly swap I was doing about 6 per hour after I had tied the first 10 or so. I guess I never really sit down to just tie like a fiend. Usually the TV is on or I’m having a drink or both. Mu
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exact same materials, if you sit down 50 tiers and have each of them tie the same pattern, each will be different and most tiers would be able to pick out the fly he tied from the others.
This kind of makes me think of a quote by Jimmy Vaughn when talking about the way his brother played guitar. He simply said," Stevie never played a song the same way once." I think that the variations are what makes tying so interesting. I don’t see why everyone is so concerned about the cost of flies. Since I started tying flies i think that I now have the cost down to about ten bucks a fly. As the guy said after getting out of rehab, tying flies is only slightly more expensive than drugs. Big Dale Big Dale
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Try five-minute-epoxy, and hold the half chicken by the wing for the last thirty seconds ! 
TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC Is that why my flies take so long to make? I thought it was because I superglued my fingers to the vise. Frank "sparse means only half a chicken" Reid
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It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer.
I think the best bet is to acquire a few from a reliable source…..local fly shop, established mail order supplier, etc., and compare with a variety of cheap flies from K-Mart and other similar sources. It has been my experience that the differences between good quality flies and crap are striking. Even a novice should have little trouble spotting the difference after a brief side by side comparison. Wolfgang
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I do not believe there are any really simple answers to many of the questions involved in angling, including the one you posed. One reason why it is so fascinating. Even the most simplistic approach requires considerable knowledge before success is likely to be achieved consistently. Beginners, per definition, have difficulties in a whole range of areas, and there is no way to alleviate this, except by obtaining information and gaining experience. This is unfortunately also somewhat complicated nowadays by the vast amount of literature and other information available, much of it of exceedingly doubtful value or pedigree. Beginners are in no position to be able to decide which advice is good, or not. One symptom of this is the veritable flood of books, magazines, websites, your discipline of choice here, be it angling, casting, tying, wading, tying knots, building rods, making leaders, and a host of other stuff. Some of these things promise immediate expertise just by virtue of reading/perusing them, even a beginner must realise that this is nonsense. Completely independent of what you do, hobbywise, or professionally, the only really sensible way to become better at it, is to do it, at the same time obtaining as much knowledge and experience as you possibly can. One day, or even one hour on the stream with an experienced angler will books. As will one hour at the bench of a good fly-dresser help you in regard to flies. Quite a few people e-mail me and the same questions are asked over and over again. While I invariably reply to the best of my knowledge and ability, I am often disappointed to discover that many people have made little or no attempt to obtain the information for themselves, either by researching, or simply by trying things out for themselves. A potted version, with exact instructions from an "expert" suits them better. There are no recipes for instant success at anything, but it appears that more and more people are subscribing to such a belief. The internet itself, in my opinion one of the greatest achievements on the planet, achieved basically because meddling politicians were kept out of it from the start, is being viewed by more and more people as a portal to instant knowledge, expertise and general entertainment, from the comfort of their armchairs, without any particular physical effort on their part, and without having to think for themselves. Many people view the newsgroups as a simple and effective way of gaining information they are too lazy to acquire for themselves, and have the cheek to complain, when their often ill worded and arrogant demands are not immediately fulfilled. Their input is also invariably zero. You get out of fishing, or practically anything else, including newsgroups and the like, more or less proportionally to your investment. Expecting anything else is rather short-sighted to say the least. Even where I to come up with answers to some of the questions, like the one you posed, I fear it would be a mistake to hand it out gratis to all and sundry. It is apparently so, that many who receive something for nothing, are considerably less appreciative of it, than they would be, had they been obliged to work for it, or pay for it in some manner. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer. Willi
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You get what you pay for.
This is a phrase that is widely tossed around and is applied to everything that is offered for sale. Although there is SOME truth to this saying, people relying on this advice only, are going to make many bad purchases. Buying based solely on price is a foolish way to purchase anything. Willi
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All very true Willi. Some shop flies have enough materials in them to dress three or more flies. It is a common tendency for beginners to apply too much dubbing, too many turns of hackle, too much wing, even too many turns of thread. Very difficult to get some to change. Although I understand what you are saying about this special instance where you are acquiring specific "shop" flies, for model or comparison purposes, I would not advise beginners to do it. Most shop flies are not as good as they should/could be. Some of the photos and instructions in various books are not a great deal of help either. Often showing "demonstration" or "display" flies, which perhaps look prettier to an unschooled eye. Most professional dressers, and all the good amateurs, are aware of this, but apparently bow to circumstances forced upon them by others in many cases. Quite a few anglers seem to buy flies with more material in them as well. Good sparse well tied flies are often ignored for some bushy specimen which looks likes "more for their money". Strange idea, but very widespread. I have yet to see any natural fly with two hundred concentrically ordered legs ! It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I don’t believe there is ONE correct way to tie even a "standard" pattern, IMO, most flies sold tend to be over dressed. This makes for a "pretty" fly, but one that, I feel, is usually less effective. This applies to all the flies offered in my area except for one shop. This shop buys from a VERY talented local tier who can mass produce, what I consider to be, extremely high quality flies. They get $2.50 per fly although the other shops in the area sell their flies from $.95 to $1.50. I sometimes buy specific flies from this shop that I especially like the look of, to use as a model and to analyze how the tier achieved this look. Willi
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It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material !
That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer. Willi
Response:
It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC
Is that why my flies take so long to make? I thought it was because I superglued my fingers to the vise. Frank "sparse means only half a chicken" Reid
Response:
You get what you pay for. This is a phrase that is widely tossed around and is applied to everything that is offered for sale. Although there is SOME truth to this saying, people relying on this advice only, are going to make many bad purchases. Buying based solely on price is a foolish way to purchase anything.
Especially if you equate "expensive" with "high quality", which is the gist of the saying. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/
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So Mike, when are we going to see your "In the Beginning" series of books, replete with Connorisms and anecdotes??? BTW, if anyone knows a source of Starling feathers off-the-skin, my wife was agast when I went to buy a skin with the little head looking back. — Wayne (credit card in hand waiting to buy the first signed copy) To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!
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Absolutely. Pure grain alcohol will get you just as drunk as the finest scotch. Cheaper is better, all else equal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/
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Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?
Although this question is phrased, IMO, better than most, i.e., "Any experience with….?" rather than "Is "X" (Item, but generally brand) any good?", it non-the-less seems to ask, "Are these flies any good?" and brings up an answer/idea not covered by any of the answers I’ve seen. First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes: Modern tyers who discuss such matters in their writing, ala Gierach, seem to average between 12 and 24 flies an hour, depending on pattern, so let’s say 18 an hour. Now, the retail price varies greatly, so let’s simply say 1.50US average. Let’s also use a 50-percent gross to the fly shop, so the wholesale cost is .75US. That means 18 per hour at .75US each, for a total of 13.50US a hour total. A grocery store I passed this morning had a sign that said, "Help Wanted – 9.25 an hour to start." Add in materials, and you’ll quickly see that you’ll likely not see anyone who "made a fortune" tying flies. Even if you adjust the numbers used upward, it still isn’t a highly-paid career. The point of the above? Well, mainly, to show that fly-tying isn’t a "get rich" business for the "money-hungry" regardless of what retail purchasers pay. The cost is almost all based on two factors – the first, the cost of labor (well, the overall production costs, with labor being the lion’s share – John may be a wonderful guy, and an excellent tyer, and I would suspect he’d readily tell you that neither he, nor Archie Best, etc., is the best possible tyer in the US, much less the world), and the second factor, desired markup at retail – which brings us to the second issue – the retail purchaser. A frequently-asked question by "newbies," on or off ROFF, and in many sports/hobbies/etc., is, "How good is this?" And while there are always a variety of answers, ranging from "Good" to "Bad" (phrasing also varies greatly, as well <G). However, IMO, the "answer" should be questions: "How good do you want and/or need, how much are you willing to pay at what return, are ascetics alone important to _you_, etc.?" This is why I liked the poster’s phrase, "Any experience with…" IMO, people have become much too concerned with what others think. People are "self-deprecating" toward gear that they find perfectly serviceable, almost like they are ashamed of it, and to me, being ashamed requires a personal feeling of improper behavior and a feeling of a need to "make it right." If your gear does what _you_ want it to do, and _you_ like it, be it a 20.00US combo or 10,000.00US of top-of-the-line "maker’s art" gear, it is "good" for/to you – there is no way to argue with that, period, EOD. There is nothing wrong with asking the experiences of others when a purchase is contemplated, especially when an item might have unknown property(s) not readily inspected (For example, mail-order waders), but IMO, if you feel it to be "good," then it is, and if you think it "bad" then it is. Not to be harsh, but IMO, this type of question smacks more of "validate my choice" rather than "help me decide." If you are going to let others tell you what to think, just give someone your budget and ask them to get what _they_ want. I would venture that this will almost never turn out well, regardless of the people involved or the budget. As to things like flies, and again, not to be harsh, but we are talking about an item of such importance and of such little cost, overall, that if you can’t afford to try a few, you can’t afford the sport of FF’ing. I realize that sounds contradictory with the above, but it is simple math – we can’t possibly be talking about more than 5-10.00US to try several, and while 10.00US is much more to some than others, if 10.00US is too much money to spend, period, you really shouldn’t be out "sporting." Even if you _need_ the fish to eat, you are using the wrong method in FF’ing. Therefore, I’m going to base my answer on the given that a few dollars are (safely) available. Buy a couple/few, and if they work for you, the other factor being equal, then they are good – it really is that simple. The other factor is the "lifespan" – if the math says the cheaper fly lasts X fish, and the expensive one lasts Y fish, simple math will indicate the choice. HOWEVER, if you do catch a fish who complains about your gear, he’s mine – I have dibsies (and a roadshow ready)… TC, R
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All very true Willi. Some shop flies have enough materials in them to dress three or more flies. It is a common tendency for beginners to apply too
Like Frank (except with Elmer’s , not superglue)I know I used too much material. Hackle is a good example. I selected the right size hackle from the saddle by measuring (good practice) but wound hackle until I had a nice tip left to tie down and clip off (bad practice). Looking at photos of the fly I was tying I found many different approaches to the pattern. Perhaps, only experience can get me to the right materials mix. My experience with imported flys is much what Mike describes, more material than most local tyers use. I also found quality inconsistant. I have had some of these flys (English made) come apart on the first cast. African made flys seem to be the worst, wrong materials, poorly tied. Some of the drys I tried could not float with any amount of floatant. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!
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Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?
I buy my flies from local fly shops. Shop #1, a relatively high-end place, sells them for $1.65 each, $17.95/dozen. Shop #2, a relatively low-end shop, sells them for $0.99 each or $9.99/dozen. I’ve recently moved to this area and haven’t bought flies yet for every hatch of the year. Last August, when the Trico’s were hatching, I bought several Trico patterns from both shops. It is possible that Chinese- or Indian-tied flies would be priced lower, but quality would be an unknown. The only way to find out would be to buy some and fish them–if they’re a good deal, order more. Tom G tying your own is cheaper on a per fly basis, but you’ll end up with 100 times the number of flies…
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It depends on why they are cheap. If the price is a result of the cheaper labour in the country of origin, they may be comparable, or indeed in some cases even better than more expensive flies. If inferior materials, hooks, etc. have been used, or badly trained dressers have produced them, then they will be inferior. The only way to find out if any of the above applies, is to buy some and see. Also, buying one lot of flies from China or India is not sufficient grounds for offering opinions on the relative quality of others from those countries. In many cases commodities which are considerably cheaper than others are of inferior quality. This is however not always so. The price of many goods is completely independent of any perceived quality, or otherwise, and is not a suitable criteria for determining it. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?
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I’ve tried flies from just about everywhere. Domestic, China, Taiwan, Europe, etc. I can’t tell any difference in them. I like to sautee them in butter and garlic but i’ve also tried them with SOS and IMHO it really doesn’t make any diiference where the country of origin was. I haven’t found that the imported ones are any cheaper though.
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Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?
Like others have indicated, there is a wide range of quality out there. There are reasonably good quality flies that are imported from places like India and China. In fact, most flies sold in the U.S. are imported. This just makes sense. The biggest "cost" in the construction of a fly is the labor and labor in the U.S. is relatively expensive. Some importers, like Umqua ?, have well trained tiers and fairly high quality standards. Others import junk. This is something that it is difficult for a beginner to evaluate. Although I tie my own, whenever I’m in a shop that sells flies, I like to peruse the offerings looking for new ideas and also looking at how the shops standard patterns are tied. It’s interesting to me (and also valuable for someone who ties) how much these standard patterns can differ. Different tiers use different materials and different quality of materials even on "standard" patterns but what is more interesting to me are the various different "styles" that each tier has. Even using the exact same materials, if you sit down 50 tiers and have each of them tie the same pattern, each will be different and most tiers would be able to pick out the fly he tied from the others. Although I don’t believe there is ONE correct way to tie even a "standard" pattern, IMO, most flies sold tend to be over dressed. This makes for a "pretty" fly, but one that, I feel, is usually less effective. This applies to all the flies offered in my area except for one shop. This shop buys from a VERY talented local tier who can mass produce, what I consider to be, extremely high quality flies. They get $2.50 per fly although the other shops in the area sell their flies from $.95 to $1.50. I sometimes buy specific flies from this shop that I especially like the look of, to use as a model and to analyze how the tier achieved this look. Willi
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Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?
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Cheap stuffs absorbs turkey fat and gets soggy before the gibblets are ready. Thems stuffs have gibblets in ‘em someo tha times but can’t rely onit. Deep fried turkey is bests when the stuffs is cooked in a pot on tha stove. Somertimes youse can get stovetoper stuffs mix and avoid the turkey altogether. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!
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You get what you pay for.
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Some of the flies made overseas are excellent, others are abominations and would not even make it to a K-Mart blister pack. The quality of these flies varies in direct proportion to quality of the materials and the training and quality control of the manufactury. I’ve seen flies that Mustad has made in the Philipines and I wouldn’t fish with them. They are too good. They should be mounted and used as examples of how to build a fly. My only suggestion is to buy a half a dozen flies from a manufacturer and test them out. Inspect them under a magnifying glass, checking for the wraps and proportions, drop them in a pan of water for a half and hour and then give them a few casts in the yard. If they seem to hold together and all checks out, you can probably, safely, buy more. Caveat emptor. I’ve seen flies made with water-soluable glues and dyes. One of my favorite sources of flies in bulk is the UK. There is a cottage industry there that ties for profit. The prices are dirt cheap and the flies are normally way above average quality. Still, one must always use the first test explained above even when buying from a "quality" dealer. Buy a magazine like "Flyfishing and Flytying" from the UK at one of these big bookstores. Check the classifieds. Its well worth the price for a long term fly buying solution short of making your own (which, as we all know is the cheapest way to get flies;-). Also, peruse your local fly shops. Quite often they have good flies at reasonable prices. Frank Reid Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?
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