Question:

I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.

Agreed.  I think the only way to settle this for sure is to find someone familiar with this particular hatch on that body of water. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly."

H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata. Wolfgang

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JAFB, Wolfie — TBone

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata.

I think you may have that backwards in that I think you’ll find that Recurvata is larger than Limbata, but only just.  In any case, they are close enough in size that it doesn’t really matter – if one is much too large, the other will be as well.  If they are too large, then color really doesn’t matter, but I’ve seen references that indicate both can range in color.  Based on the information that Recurvata/Limbata is much too large, I’d try to get a look at Epeorus.  Here’s a link I found: http://www.mayfly.com/articles/WW7.html by Al Caucci and I’ve also emailed you a copy of the "suspect." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

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rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake),

was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                       Tom

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rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                      Tom

Ah…thanks.  I guess then I ought to add that everything I’ve indicated in this thread may be equally outdated.  I’m almost afraid to ask, but…any idea why? TC, R

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger.

What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…" TC, R

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I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2.

Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia.   Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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      I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all   fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I   found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the   state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as   interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty   much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance,   habitat, and habit of the target species. Although the Web has a vast amount of information, it is often difficult or even impossible to find the specific information that you want. I would like to see the studies done at public Universities made available on the Internet. Because the data would need to be inputted, it would be costly and difficult for older studies, but virtually all current research is composed on a computer and making them available to the public wouldn’t be a monumental task. This access could be a condition for any researchers getting public funding for their research.     Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as   easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would   necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a   specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know   of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to   specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they   are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a   stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason   to be familiar with my target species. I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.     As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal   differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even   unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown   to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of   small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time.   There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known   species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an   uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of   numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial   confluence of circumstances. You may very well be right about this. One of the researchers I contacted said that they were MANY unknown species and local variations. There just isn’t much grant money available to study them. The vast amount of research done on insects is on insect control (where the money is). Willi

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…"

Unfortunately, I seem to be unable to access anything on the web right now.  We had some trouble with the college server last week.  Looks like it may not be entirely resolved yet.  I’ll take a look at the Epeorus as soon as I can. Thanks Wolfgang

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I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. According to the book, they are clumsy on takeoff as they are so large, often skipping across  the water. They emerge at dusk or after sunset being primarily a cool lake species but slow, silty parts of rivers will hold them too. BTW, at the beginning of August, we drove through a blizzard light cahill hatch at dusk.  Still trying to get the critters off my car. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula.

I was fortunate to fish a Brown Drake hatch this year at Silver Creek. These are by far the largest mayflies I’ve ever seen, and the hatch was prolific. The hatch occurs in the evening and through the night, until it’s so dark that you can only detect the takes by ear. These bugs live in slow moving water with a silty bottom. The nymphs are swimmers, and they’ll take fish before the hatch with a stripped retrieve. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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 Wolfgang, dear boy.  There is only one mayfly that is as prolific as the ones you describe.  Hexagina Limbatas!  So thick are they during the early days that they would cover a cabin and all the screen doors with their numbers. God!  What an insect! George Gehrke

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  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks. Wolfgang

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I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet. I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  They were NOT Hexigina. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes. Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.   Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks.

Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas?

wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image… –waldo

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Wolfgang asks: Any ideas?

ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access). People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.                                   Tom

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Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg

That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger. All in all, I think uncle Wally’s candidate looks the most promising.     Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas? wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image…

THAT’S IT!  I’d recognize the bastard anywhere! Wolfgang who is reasonably certain he doesn’t even want to know what the nymphs look like.      :(

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I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet.

I remember talking about this with you, but I don’t recall whether you said anything about the substrate there.  The bugs I encountered would almost have to have been burrowers.  The bottom of this lake was very soft….even very near shore where turbulence would wash away at least some of the muck you would sink at least ankle deep in the stuff.  I’m not intimately familiar with the Lake Michigan shoreline in the Chicago area, so I may have missed it, but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such? I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  

Size and color scheme sound about right. They were NOT Hexigina.

Absolutely right.  Impossible to mistake the Hex for anything else. Moreover, while I don’t remember just how long they were around, we encountered them when we first left the cottage in the morning, which would have been fairly early (at a cottage on a lake in what we thought of as the north woods nothing…..well, almost nothing…could keep us indoors much past sunrise on a sunny day) and I remember that we stayed inside for the rest of the day, and perhaps even the next.  These bugs were active….VERY active….throughout the day. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes.

Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that? Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.

Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

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Wolfgang writes… but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such?

That’s true.  It was a clean sandy bottom.  Not protected.  Well washed  by the wave action.  Vegatation about 30 to 50 yds out from shore. Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that?

I don’t think so.  You’re imagining. Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang

I still think they were Brown Drakes.  Looked a lot like the picture from the web site Warren posted.  But they were 6 & 8 for sure – not 10 & 12. Big guys!  I’ll dream of catching 10 lb. rainbow.  You dream of being blanketed by a hatch of monster mayflys. we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

Let me know the details. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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Wolfgang asks: Any ideas? ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access).

I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance, habitat, and habit of the target species.  Other sites have much of that information, but matching the information on various sites is daunting, to say the least.  I have found some references to individual species which sounded promising for one reason or another but in many cases have been unable to find photographs of the bugs in question….and on and on. Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason to be familiar with my target species. People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them.

Right, on all counts.  Both Ephemera and Isonychia look like good candidates based on photos, but both are questionable on the basis of size.  I don’t yet know enough about habit or habitat with regard to either genus.  Hexagenia limbata is definitely out for a variety of reasons. As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time. There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial confluence of circumstances. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes.

I just looked up Litobrancha.  Interestingly, the first hit I looked at was a UW Stevens Point website which contains a list of "AQUATIC INSECTS OF WISCONSIN RECENT SYNONYMS AT SPECIFIC OR HIGHER LEVELS" authored by none other than Stanley W. Szczytko, the aquatic entomologist I mentioned above, and Jeffrey J. Dimick, who used to be (and quite possibly still is) president of a local TU chapter in the area.  They list Litobrancha  in the "recent taxonomy" column next to Hexagenia (in part) under "prior taxonomy", and Litobrancha recurvata next to Hexagenia recurvata.  Looking at another dozen or sites, I have not yet found a photo.  I’ll keep working on this one. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.

Doesn’t sound like my bug.  I don’t know when they came off, but they were very active through a bright sunny day.  Of course, it must be remembered that I’m basing all of this on memories of an event that occurred more than forty years ago and that I was not much interested in close observation of the bugs at the time.  In all likelihood, I’ll never be able to solve this mystery.  I thought (and I still do) that my best bet was to put it out here and hope that someone just happens to be familiar with this hatch in this particular place.  I think it’s just about time for a brilliant lurker with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ephemeroptera to show him or herself and demonstrate how pitiful the rest of us really are.     Wolfgang thanks tom.

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  Well, roughly anyway.   Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

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Well, roughly anyway. My father’s cousin, Sam Friederich, owned a couple acres of land and a cottage (a dacha, as a Russian physicist I recently spoke with, "…not what YOU call a cottage here!" called it) on Kangaroo lake in Door County, Wisconsin.  For those not familiar with the area, Door County is the long finger of land which runs to the northeast up into Lake Michigan and thus forms Green Bay to the west. Kangaroo lake, http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=45.0325&lon=-87.15889 was, in the late 1950s, lightly developed.  There were a couple of small resorts, a few permanent year round homes, several cottages like the one we frequently stayed at, all of them on the larger, southern section of the lake south of the causeway, and a single very large estate on the island.  Whatever organic pollutants entered the lake as a result of human habitation were still minimal at that time.  In other words, the water was very clean and the biome had probably changed little since pre-Columbian times.  Kangaroo lake was a wonderful place to swim, even for city bred kids like me, as long as one didn’t allow one’s feet to touch the bottom.  The lake bed was marl, and thus about as icky a thing to come into contact with as was imagineable….except, of course, for the things that actually LIVED in that oozy bottom! One day all those things that lived in the bottom (although I didn’t realize their origin at the time) came out.  The air was filled with bugs.  Millions of bugs.  Maybe billions of bugs.  They were so bold or so crazed or stupid that they would land on anything or anybody.  Adult reassurances that they were perfectly harmless fell on deaf ears and neither I nor my brothers or sister could be coaxed to go outside for any reason…..threats and coercion worked, but you get the picture. In the ensuing years, I have often wondered exactly what those bugs were.  My interest in fly fishing, running close onto twenty years worth now, makes it easy to say with certainty that they were some variety of mayfly, but I still haven’t been able to identify the species. Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger.  They were a dark, slate gray to nearly black and, if memory serves after all these years, they were almost certainly duns or sub-imagos….dark, nearly opaque wings. On a couple of occasions in the last two or three years I’ve made occasional efforts to locate resources on line which might solve the mystery for me but have, as yet, had no success. Any ideas? Wolfgang

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Question:

   It’s been a 20 year family tradition among my in-laws to go camping in the Cedar Grove area of Kings Canyon National Park at least once a year. This past Memorial Day weekend I headed up there on Thursday to secure a campsite while the rest of the family joined me on Friday evening.

Thanks Mu, nice report. I live less than a couple hours from this area, but have never fished it. I will now. Thanks again brians PS many miles downstream of the Upper Kings, so much water is diverted for irrigation, that it almost dries up to nothing.

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I live less than a couple hours from this area, but have never fished it. I will now.

The few fly anglers I met did say they caught fish too.  In 20 years of camping there my father-in-law told me he never saw anybody catching any fish.  A competent spin or bait angler should do very well but most people seem content to soak their bait at the bottom and wait for the fish to never come. Mu

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 Nice description, Mu.  I tend to think of CA as a place  where all of the free-flowing water of any significance  is long-gone, so I am always surprised by a report like  yours.

well once this water reaches the low lands, it is dammed for agriculture nad drinking water.

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nice report……nice to hear there is still an abundance of water…somewhere out there….   richard colorado . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    It’s been a 20 year family tradition among my in-laws to go camping in the Cedar Grove area of Kings Canyon National Park at least once a year. This past Memorial Day weekend I headed up there on Thursday to secure a campsite while the rest of the family joined me on Friday evening.    I did manage to fit in a whole day of fishing on Friday along with a few more hours on Sunday afternoon.  A foot of snow had been on the ground

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I loved the report… been thinking about heading up that way…

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Great report – thank you. Now I have to go again and take the main squeez. When I use to fish various forks of the Kings sometimes it would be a day before my hearing would come back. When the river use to run high we found fish in the smallest creeks and rivelets, they seemed to small to have fish but they did. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  snipped most enjoyable report

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   It’s been a 20 year family tradition among my in-laws to go camping in the Cedar Grove area of Kings Canyon National Park at least once a year. This past Memorial Day weekend I headed up there on Thursday to secure a campsite while the rest of the family joined me on Friday evening.    I did manage to fit in a whole day of fishing on Friday along with a few more hours on Sunday afternoon.  A foot of snow had been on the ground in some portions of the park just a few days earlier, but it had melted by the time I arrived.    The temperature was unusually warm during the holiday weekend and the water levels were rising each day.  It is not unusual for blizzards to occur even in May in this particular national park, which John Muir had claimed matched Yosemite in grandeur and beauty.    The South Fork of the Kings River races through the Cedar Grove area year round.  I’ve been here in early September and even then this river is barely wadable.  Much of the river was a raging whitewater froth during my trip last month.  Even the tributaries looked angry enough to drown a whale.    The pools that are visible during low water periods were completely hidden under the plunging rapids.  I’d hate to even think about what this river would look like in May after a wet winter.    On Friday I drove to the Road’s End, a popular take-off point for backpackers and day hikers, located at the terminus of highway 180. Hiking in about 2 miles along the north side of the river took me to a bridge which crosses the South Fork where it is joined by Bubbs Creek.    I walked back towards Road’s End along the south side of the river until I came upon an area where the river split into several smaller side channels which were on the north side.  At this point I foolishly attempted to cross back over to the north side.  The water which looked about knee deep was actually waist deep.  Once I was past the knees however it was too late.  The river lifted me off my feet and I was headed towards the ocean.  With great difficulty I did manage to tiptoe to the other side about 30 yards downstream from where I had started. Fortunately, there were no deep pools in this area.  (Those new Chota STL studded wading boots are great!)    I fished the side channels and picked up a few dinky rainbows on a cinnamon caddis.  I did spot stonefly husks on some of the rocks but in general this river does not appear to be too fertile.  The insect activity seems to be predominantly of the caddis sort.  Sometimes, skittering my fly would trigger a strike.    Eventually I met up with the main river again.  Much of the fishing for these small and wild rainbows was quite easy.  Trying to find a place to fish where one could avoid drowning was not so easy.    Basically I’d scramble through the brush for about 20 minutes until I found a large boulder.  Several fish would be congregated there.  A poorly drifted nymph would almost definitely result in a hookup.  Sometimes, even a second fish could be lured out of a particular pocket of water.  But that was it.  Typically, after the first fish was caught, the rest of them would go hide under a rock.    The colors of these fish were brilliant and their eagerness was well appreciated by this angler.  I didn’t mind that they were small; I mean I could catch fish like these even locally here in southern Califronia. But the scenery in Kings Canyon really is spectacular.  After wearing out my welcome at one boulder, it was a 20 minute hike until I found another likely looking spot.  And that’s how the day went on for several more enjoyable hours.    Sunday afternoon I was walking around the area known as Zumwalt Meadow which is also near the vicinity of Road’s End.   I found an extremely large deadfall and for several yards, the water behind it almost appeared to be like a regular river instead of the South Fork.  It looked interesting so I decided to see what would happen to a #14 Parachute Adams.  In spite of the large downed tree, the water was still moving rather swiftly though this area and frequent mending was necessary.    What a surprise when I pulled out a feisty little jumping brown trout. I caught several more browns in that little run.  Unlike the rainbows in the pocket water, these fish did not spook after one of their brethren was hooked and flailing wildly in their vicinity.  Since National Parks are not stocked with fish, these must be the descendants of some browns that were introduced many decades ago.    All in all an enjoyable trip.  Good mix of fishing days and hiking days and lots of wood-fired steaks. Mu

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Question:

 I think that it’s also true that you should use the smallest  indicator you can get away with.  The larger it is the more  information it will mask.

I agree. There’s stuff called ’strike putty’ you can get from Orvis. You can put a very little of it on, say, a knot in the leader;  a good guide if you’ve lost sight of what’s going on. Lazarus — Lazarus Cooke

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What about a short length of the bricklayer’s twine you use for running line, or is that too large an inside diameter? — Charlie…

I can

Question:

Wolfgang wrote Wolfie The only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys. Hm, so what does this tell us about all the folks who have purchased a certain unnamed and oh so affordable knot tying tool?    :)

Boys will be boys will Be boys will be boys will be Men, and men will die.                               …Jay Jenks, boyhood pal now beyond the pale —                                                       -dnc-

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I had a subscription to WarmWater Flyfishing and after the first year I decided not to renew.Why?I found that the magazine was starting to get into the pattern of typical "bassin’" magazines.You know;slow and deep for winter bass,deadly patterns for early spring bluegills etc.The first few issues had my attention with articles on catching gar or peacock bass.After that there was too much redundancy.Other flyfishing magazines include enough articles on warm water flyfishing to fill the void.I like flyfishing magazines better than spinfisherman magazines because most of the time they don’t have that gonzo bass-pro attitude.W.W.Flyfishing seemed to me to be developing an identity crisis.Were all us flyfishing bass chasers really bassboat plug chuckers who had a desperate need to tie flies that looked and worked just as good as a spinnerbait and a plastic worm?I don’t think so. Tight Lines,Shawn

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Wolfie The only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys.

Hm, so what does this tell us about all the folks who have purchased a certain unnamed and oh so affordable knot tying tool?    :)

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Wolfie The only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys. Hm, so what does this tell us about all the folks who have purchased a certain unnamed and oh so affordable knot tying tool?    :)

I guess I will have to raise the price to seperate the men from the boys. Ernie

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In my not so humble opinion your estwing hammer isn’t the proper tool to try hitting nails with. — Don Thompson well, speaking from long experience, I’d say your nsho is wrong.

Yep, gotta agree with this one.  Bought my Estwing straight claw nearly twenty years ago and have pounded more nails, recalcitrant boards, various impedimenta, and thumbs with it than I care to remember.  If all tools were made this well a whole lot of manufacturers would soon go out of business. Wolfgang who, after all the rhapsodies in praise of cordless screwdrivers here in the past couple of weeks and after becoming hopelessly snarled in electrical cords while constructing a grape arbor this weekend, spent a full hour yesterday ogling the latest offerings from DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, et al.

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Wolfie The only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wolfgang who, after all the rhapsodies in praise of cordless screwdrivers here in the past couple of weeks and after becoming hopelessly snarled in electrical cords while constructing a grape arbor this weekend, spent a full hour yesterday ogling the latest offerings from DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, et al.

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Geez! What the hell is wrong with you people? One guy expresses his opinion and he’s jumped on. Amazing.

Nothing wrong with the people here, John. Suffice it to say that nobody on this list (with the exception of me and one or two other folks who lurk but don’t post) knows what the real deal was with the closure of Warmwater.

Mr. Smith firmly stated that he did know "the real deal" and he was even willing to bet his hammer on it. Thank you for setting the record straight. Now, back to the newsgroup.

Been here all along. — Ken Fortenberry

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I don’t understand what is going on with this thread. I enjoyed the magazine,and thought it was well done. I appreciate the efforts of John and his staff in promoting Warmwater fly fishing and I miss the magazine.

Never read the magazine. I did receive an unsolicited copy of 8 wt Journal in the mail one time. It was OK, but I was never tempted to subscribe. What I objected to was the slurs against the new CEO at Abenaki. Most distasteful and uncalled for in my opinion. You can miss the magazine without bad mouthing someone, especially when that person is in no position to defend himself here on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

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Most distasteful and uncalled for in my opinion. You can miss the magazine without bad mouthing someone, especially when that person is in no position to defend himself here on ROFF.

I sure agree with that. Big Dale

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Geez! What the hell is wrong with you people? One guy expresses his opinion and he’s jumped on. Amazing. Suffice it to say that nobody on this list (with the exception of me and one or two other folks who lurk but don’t post) knows what the real deal was with the closure of Warmwater. To those who liked and supported the magazine, my thanks. Now, back to the newsgroup. John Likakis

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Never read the magazine. I did receive an unsolicited copy of 8 wt Journal in the mail one time. It was OK, but I was never tempted to subscribe. What I objected to was the slurs against the new CEO at Abenaki. Most distasteful and uncalled for in my opinion. You can miss the magazine without bad mouthing someone, especially when that person is in no position to defend himself here on ROFF.

Your right. Perhaps I shouldn’t have directed my dissapointment so strongly at the publisher.  It is just that I am Interested in people with vision.  People who understand that the only differance between dreams and reality, is the making the dream, a reality. Still, I believe the decision to end Warm Water was premature.  At this point in history, the average person thinks that flyfishing is for trout only.  Warm Water Flyfishing magazine challenged that assumption directly.  Great ideas take time to bring into reality sometimes. I enjoy watching fishing shows when I get a chance.  A few years ago, you didn’t see that many flyfishing episodes let alone flyfishing for warm water species.  Since the advent of Warm Water Flyfishing magazine, I have been able to enjoy several episodes including warm water species. Fly fishing for carp?  Why not to long ago I watched an entire episode of Flip Pallot and Lefty Kreh fly fishing for carp! They were calling it the *fresh water bonefish*.  Wow!  I credit people like John Likakis and his magazine, with stimulating the interest. Another reason I feel thet the decision was premature, is because the flyfishing industry, itself, was just beginning to wake up to the possibilities ( this was the point I was driving home in a previous post).  Warm water flyfishing has different tackle needs.  A magazine that broadened the market can only strengthen the industry. It’s too bad they didn’t wake up sooner.                                     Mike Smith

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Mr. Fortenberry:    My complement and support for John Likakis, was both genuine and heartfelt.  I meant it as nothing more than that.

Well, with friends like you and your Winston, Mr. Likakis sure as hell doesn’t need any enemies. — Ken Fortenberry

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 In my not so humble opinion your estwing hammer isn’t the proper tool to try hitting nails with. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I’m willing to bet the Estwing hammer that I swing for a living, that I’ve hit the nail on the head.

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In my not so humble opinion your estwing hammer isn’t the proper tool to try hitting nails with. — Don Thompson

well, speaking from long experience, I’d say your nsho is wrong.       Jim Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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aren’t big enough for bass and pike flys, maybe I should look for suppliers.  Ooops! Where do I look?

For feathers more suitable for bass and pike flies you should check out the feathers from Ewing Featherbirds inc. of Waterville,Ia.The last catalog I have MWflytying.com as another source for materials for tying bass flys. I don’t understand what is going on with this thread. I enjoyed the magazine,and thought it was well done. I appreciate the efforts of John and his staff in promoting Warmwater fly fishing and I miss the magazine. Big Dale                                                                      

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I don’t know anything about the gripe you & John have against the new CEO at Abenaki but your rabble rousing in ROFF is transparent, distasteful and as phony as a three dollar bill.

I’m with you, Ken… In the immortal words of Mr. Class-Act himself… DON’T FEED THE TROLL!! –Steve

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While I have long gray hair, I can assure you that I am no relation to John, … I don’t know anything about the gripe you & John have against the new CEO at Abenaki but your rabble rousing in ROFF is transparent, distasteful and as phony as a three dollar bill.

Mr. Fortenberry:    My complement and support for John Likakis, was both genuine and heartfelt.  I meant it as nothing more than that.  I have been lurking here for quite some time, but it was not until I found that he was reading on the usenet that I have ever felt compelled to post anything on the usenet before.  This was my first time.      Yes, I do resent Abenaki’s (or perhaps more accuratly Rodale Press’s) decision to end publication of Warm Water Flyfishing magazine.  I love my sport deeply, and I have many thanks for people, like Mr. Likakis, who have been spreading the news that flyfishing is an all around sport.    My Winston 5wt and I have enjoyed many great experiances together on these wonderful Green Mountain streams.  But thanks to Mr. Likakis and Warm Water Flyfishing, my Sage 7wt and I am getting very well aquianted with these Green Mountain lakes and rivers.  And guess what?  I can’t wait for my first opportunity to lock into a carp on my fly rod.    Perhaps my 7wt won’t be enough. Maybe I should look into an 8wt.  It might be a good idea because I can use it for Pike also.  It could be that a 6wt would be just the thing for the White river.    It’s my suspicion, Mr. Fortenberry, that the decision to end this fine magazines publication, had less to do with lack of interest on the part of the public, and more to do with piss poor sales support by management.  It’s just another case of city bound account executives inability to see the green through the skyscrapers.  And I’m willing to bet the Estwing hammer that I swing for a living, that I’ve hit the nail on the head.    In the meantime, I think I will look into a Bauer reel to go along with that 8wt.  Also these feathers that I use for tying trout flys aren’t big enough for bass and pike flys, maybe I should look for suppliers.  Ooops! Where do I look?                                  Mike Smith

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While I have long gray hair, I can assure you that I am no relation to John, …

I don’t know anything about the gripe you & John have against the new CEO at Abenaki but your rabble rousing in ROFF is transparent, distasteful and as phony as a three dollar bill. — Ken Fortenberry

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… Indeed the flyfishing industry deserves some level of critisism for their lack of vision as well. A publication that both broadened and deepened their market deserved far more support than was given.

If it had been profitable to publish it, it would still be published. The warm water species of choice in the US is the largemouth bass and a flyrod is neither the popular nor the best way to catch a largemouth bass. The flyfishing industry, like all capitalist industry, exists to make a profit, and that can sometimes be cruel, especially to visionaries. — Ken Fortenberry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Indeed the flyfishing industry deserves some level of critisism for their lack of vision as well. A publication that both broadened and deepened their market deserved far more support than was given. If it had been profitable to publish it, it would still be published. The warm water species of choice in the US is the largemouth bass and a flyrod is neither the popular nor the best way to catch a largemouth bass. The flyfishing industry, like all capitalist industry, exists to make a profit, and that can sometimes be cruel, especially to visionaries.

While I have long gray hair, I can assure you that I am no relation to John, nor do I have any resemblence to any mom you ever met.                                  Mike Smith

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Many thanks for the kind thoughts. Perhaps some other visionary publishing company might like to hire me! (Doesn’t seem real likely.) John Likakis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John:  I want to take this opportunity to express my deep regrets and disappointment with the present management of Abenaki Publishing’s decision to cancel publication of Warm Water Flyfishing Magazine. I believe it to be a very grave error in judgment on their part.  While fly fishing for warm water species has been a sporting activity for quite some time, your dedication and enthusiasm to popularizing this sport, beginning with your publication of the 8 WT. Journal, should, no less than leave you a chapter in the history of the great sport of flyfishing. It is a crying shame that the prophetic vision of your creative spirit, combined with shared vision and support of the previous CEO of Abenaki publishing, should be relaced by such ineptitude and lack of vision. Indeed the flyfishing industry deserves some level of critisism for their lack of vision as well. A publication that both broadened and deepened their market deserved far more support than was given. I hope that your chapter in history is not closed!!!

Response:

John:  I want to take this opportunity to express my deep regrets and disappointment with the present management of Abenaki Publishing’s decision to cancel publication of Warm Water Flyfishing Magazine. I believe it to be a very grave error in judgment on their part.  While fly fishing for warm water species has been a sporting activity for quite some time, your dedication and enthusiasm to popularizing this sport, beginning with your publication of the 8 WT. Journal, should, no less than leave you a chapter in the history of the great sport of flyfishing. It is a crying shame that the prophetic vision of your creative spirit, combined with shared vision and support of the previous CEO of Abenaki publishing, should be relaced by such ineptitude and lack of vision. Indeed the flyfishing industry deserves some level of critisism for their lack of vision as well. A publication that both broadened and deepened their market deserved far more support than was given. I hope that your chapter in history is not closed!!!

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Question:

Let’s see, got up feeling cranky ’cause I didn’t get much sleep. Took twice as long to shave since the stubble was two day’s worth.  Took SWMBO out for breakfast at Russell Williams restaurant, then we went for a long ride.  Got gas for the truck – prices still too high. First day this year wearing shorts instead of jeans.  Got the house painted yesterday and SWMBO thinks the painters did a shitty job. Somebody feel free to jump in any time. Peter the bored

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I just got in from painting the new garden shed. I’m about to make some lunch and take my son to his baseball game. After that I’m taking my canoe and hitting a local lake with my son to catch the evening midge hatch. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s see, got up feeling cranky ’cause I didn’t get much sleep. Took twice as long to shave since the stubble was two day’s worth.  Took SWMBO out for breakfast at Russell Williams restaurant, then we went for a long ride.  Got gas for the truck – prices still too high. First day this year wearing shorts instead of jeans.  Got the house painted yesterday and SWMBO thinks the painters did a shitty job. Somebody feel free to jump in any time. Peter the bored

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I just got in from painting the new garden shed. I’m about to make some lunch and take my son to his baseball game. After that I’m taking my canoe and hitting a local lake with my son to catch the evening midge hatch.

We’re in runoff here and my local warm water ponds aren’t warm enough yet, so I’ve been doing lots of Spring repairs, tying and watching hockey. Go Avs! Might try out a local pond tonight. Willi

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Somebody feel free to jump in any time.

Just returned from the annual cleanup (removal of trash dumped over the banking by locals) at our Vermont camp. Fished Friday PM…..nothing. Got on the wrong side of the jet stream yesterday, rain and cold all PM, water high and discolored, didn’t fish. Back home now, ait temps in the mid 80’s. Might try a local stream this evening, but the fishing in this area has been slow. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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As opposed to some, I’m finishing up projects the evil professors have given me.  So a 20 minute presentation encompassing all that is involved in Info Security is due tomorrow.  Need an auctioneer to present it.  Mowed the lawn, washed the dog (glad I didn’t mix those two up), watered (used the dog), did dishes (used the dog), took a nap, dreamt about getting hammered on Jim Beam, fly fishing and eating a burro (dog gone).                     Frank Reid

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We’re in runoff here and my local warm water ponds aren’t warm enough yet, so I’ve been doing lots of Spring repairs, tying and watching hockey. Go Avs! Might try out a local pond tonight. Willi

Gorgeous weather out here in Vancouver, WA.  Unfortunately the streams aren’t open yet, and I’m getting stir-crazy.  There are some heavily stocked local 2500ft, is probably too high, cold, and maybe snowed in.  So I performed some minor honey-do’s, watched some NBA (Blazers smoked Utah), tied some zonkers and buggers, and practiced golf.  Beautiful and peaceful on the golf course.  After 6pm I had the course basically to myself. Spring is soon to be in full bloom and flyfishing should just get better.  Hang in there. Pat K

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Let’s see, got up feeling cranky ’cause I didn’t get much sleep. Took twice as long to shave since the stubble was two day’s worth.  Took SWMBO out for breakfast at Russell Williams restaurant, then we went for a long ride.  Got gas for the truck – prices still too high. First day this year wearing shorts instead of jeans.  Got the house painted yesterday and SWMBO thinks the painters did a shitty job. Somebody feel free to jump in any time.

He He.   I just survived the busy weekend from hell.   Sat a.m., three hours in the morning heat for son’s baseball game (first ever base hit, 2 rbi’s.). Full speed transition to inlaws afternoon gathering, then even faster (90 mph) exit to drop off kids at parents, then to the make the evening curtain at the opera (now *that* was a culture shift.).   (First time, La Boheme, loved it BTW.)   Home at midnight. Sun a.m., cook breakfast for sister-in-law’s family, then off to Md. Sheep & Wool Festival.   Home at 6, try to cut grass, mover won’t run.   Aw shit. Start weed whacker; won’t run.   Double shit.   Make pizza, watch "Galaxy Quest" (great "Star Trek" spoof).   Go to sleep. Glad to be back at work so I can relax.   Clavin’ tomorrow. Just in time for my planned "express" drive to the Clave, I hear the state police in MD & VA have started a crackdown on aggressive drivers this week. I might need that bail money before I even get there. Joe F.

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Let’s see, got up feeling cranky ’cause I didn’t get much sleep. Took twice as long to shave since the stubble was two day’s worth.  Took SWMBO out for breakfast at Russell Williams restaurant, then we went for a long ride.  Got gas for the truck – prices still too high. First day this year wearing shorts instead of jeans.  Got the house painted yesterday and SWMBO thinks the painters did a shitty job. Somebody feel free to jump in any time. Peter the bored

Went to my local triple secret, never fail, always hoppin’, mayfly factory section of river. Not a damn thing coming off. Caught a piddling handful of dinks. Got home and saw the grass has shot up 4 inches and the snow blower is still mounted on my lawn machine. Big thunderstorms today so it will get longer and probably clump like hell when I finally do mow it. Week of work looms ahead. Ahh! The only bright spot is we hammered the blue gills on Sat.- limits all around. <G Damn the clave! Jon (whining and not in NC (sniff))

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As opposed to some, I’m finishing up projects the evil professors have given me.  So a 20 minute presentation encompassing all that is involved in Info Security is due tomorrow.  Need an auctioneer to present it.  Mowed the lawn, washed the dog (glad I didn’t mix those two up), watered (used the dog), did dishes (used the dog), took a nap, dreamt about getting hammered on Jim Beam, fly fishing and eating a burro (dog gone).                    Frank Reid

Frank, Ya should’ve been at Chatsworth this past weekend (and Zwolle, in Holland, the weekend before). All the old miscreants and n’er-do-wells …plus a few new ones. Saw some very good fly tying and some awesome casting. Watch out: Vikings and Swampy incoming! The latest things from Scandinavia are fly rods in sky blue and banana yellow, because (the man explained), ‘fly fishing is supposed to be fun’. I’ve spent two weekends in the company of an old friend and a most interesting man. In Japan, they would have had him stuffed and put in a museum as a ‘national treasure’. On Saturday evening I dined with the best blank maker and rod builder in Britain and that was but a fraction of the good fun and interest I’ve been having this past ten days. Dead air? Nix! Suddenly, it’s all become exciting again. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Let’s see, got up feeling cranky ’cause I didn’t get much sleep. Took twice as long to shave since the stubble was two day’s worth.

LOL, got trapped into going to the ‘big’ mall, an hour away. So down we go and the paintings she wanted were gone….oh well what the hell, got a bottle of Birchwood Casey TruOil finish anyway. Tied a bunch of dries, small black stones, some wullfs etc. Was my first experience with my Whiting Gold grizzley saddle, tied 6 #14 Wulffs with one damn feather, good bye Metz necks! Received my ‘new’ South Bend #346 9′ bamboo and case today, some of the varnish is alligatored so I’m putting about trying to figure out where to get a polish to clean that up without having to refinish it. Took it out to the back yard and put my Ocean City Sport King rod with the level D silk line on it and casted for a bit. Rose several cats but failed to get a conclusive hookup, I realize they are not a mainstream prey species, but they are good fighters when you can keep them on the line. Checking ebay for some other bamboo rods, getting quite a jones for these since getting my first H-I just a few weeks ago. Got silk thread inbound so I can re-wrap both my H-I’s. For the first time ever, I really wish I had planned to attend a clave, I guess the fall ball in Maine, so close to me, will become a "must attend" event. Supposed to rain the rest of this week here, sigh, so the rivers go back UP again….sigh….going to have to take the canoe to a pond someplace instead. Flyfish

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Chattsworth!  Excuse me while I curl up in a corner and go catatonic.  Man I miss that.                 Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As opposed to some, I’m finishing up projects the evil professors have given me.  So a 20 minute presentation encompassing all that is involved in Info Security is due tomorrow.  Need an auctioneer to present it.  Mowed the lawn, washed the dog (glad I didn’t mix those two up), watered (used the dog), did dishes (used the dog), took a nap, dreamt about getting hammered on Jim Beam, fly fishing and eating a burro (dog gone).                    Frank Reid Frank, Ya should’ve been at Chatsworth this past weekend (and Zwolle, in Holland, the weekend before). All the old miscreants and n’er-do-wells …plus a few new ones. Saw some very good fly tying and some awesome casting. Watch out: Vikings and Swampy incoming! The latest things from Scandinavia are fly rods in sky blue and banana yellow, because (the man explained), ‘fly fishing is supposed to be fun’. I’ve spent two weekends in the company of an old friend and a most interesting man. In Japan, they would have had him stuffed and put in a museum as a ‘national treasure’. On Saturday evening I dined with the best blank maker and rod builder in Britain and that was but a fraction of the good fun and interest I’ve been having this past ten days. Dead air? Nix! Suddenly, it’s all become exciting again. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Question:

Wayne Knight: (envious story snipped) Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO

Here we are sittin’ out a snow storm and you’re fishing!  ’Tain’t fair.  It was a good day, Wayne, just to be out there. Dave L.

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Ok, Forty you asked for it….

Thanks, big guy. Always nice to read of a friends fishin’ trip while stuck up here in the snow. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ok, Forty you asked for it…. Thanks, big guy. Always nice to read of a friends fishin’ trip while stuck up here in the snow.

FWIW, they are calling for snow here tonight and tomorrow. Sure hope it does not impede my flight home to Geneva on Friday. Hopefully tho, my daughter will have the driveway and sidewalks shoveled for me by the time I do get home. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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[trip snip] Thank you Kerry for a great time, and if any of you out there ever decide to visit SW Missouri for a little fishing, be sure and drop Kerry an email. Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

Y’know that’s really cruel to post such a report to the snowbound.  :)

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Ok, Forty you asked for it…. I drove out of Kansas to Aurora Mo this past weekend where I met up with Kerry Evans, a contributor to the board, and a long time resident of SW Missouri. Crane is a creek I’ve been hearing about for about a year and wanted to try, plus it is about the closest real trout water to Halstead KS, being only 260 miles away, and whatever it’s faults as a fishing destination, eastern Kansas has some damn good roads <g. All things being equal, I would have prefered to let the weather change a little more but not having seen a trout since October I was going through withdrawal symptons. After meeting for breakfast, I followed Kerry to the creek. Yup the water is low, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelly low, and it was is gin clear. The only other time I’ve seen water this clear has been in WI spring creeks in the fall, never in the winter. Kerry did his best to put me over fish, even though the water was low, there were enough deep pools to support fish. Funny thing with a couple of exceptions we would fish the pools and see nothing and then cross the stream in 6" water and see fish scattering away from us…..There was this one pool which we saw several fish, but just could not get them to take our offerings. We did find some rising fish and we did our best to put them down Being winter, while there was some insect activity on the surface, the bugs were small. A size 20 Griffith’s Gnat might as well been a #10 Green Drake, these bugs were that small. Yours truly at the start was casting, if you want to call it that, as if I was just learning what a fly rod was having forgot my backcast, drink, forward cast routine…..and I probably had a false since of security, it being winter and all was not being too careful with the brush around the stream. I admit, I was cocky, I had never been stumped in Missouri before and really did not want to stealth my overweight out of shape self. Kerry was great, he is a fine fly fisher, a super guy, and to boot, he builds a rather nice rod too. But as sometimes happen, he too could not connect fly with fish. Finally, about halfway down the section we were fishing, we came upon a pool with two risers, Kerry being the gracious host he was, offered the pool to me. I figured screw it on the small stuff and tied on a favorite Michigan pattern, a size 14 parachute Robert’s Drake figuring that maybe the bow’s wanted a real meal for a change. After deteriming the first riser was a little one, I did my best Fortenberry imitation and slid along the pool side and side armed cast the drake under a tree branch to the other riser…..I was rewarded with a healthy bow which turned out to be the only fish of the day. Though the fishing was tough, and frankly had we been a little more careful, we might have been better rewarded, but we only saw one other fisherman and last we checked, he had not been successful. The creek needs some water but I will be back and will be better prepared next time. I bet in spring and fall colors the stream scenery is just dynamite. And Kerry told me about some other streams which have not been written about, they will stay a secret but I will be visiting them too! Thank you Kerry for a great time, and if any of you out there ever decide to visit SW Missouri for a little fishing, be sure and drop Kerry an email. Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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Question:

BULLSHIT.

 Really Cartman? (Great handle btw) that was profound.  Care to elaborate further?

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There is also a program available called "Cookie Cruncher".  It is freeware. You can then allow cookies to be set (preventing cookies can be such a pain because of the constant messages from the browser) and delete them at the end of the session with CC. You can delete all of them or just specific ones.  Sometimes you may want to leave a cookie in place because it may contain your specific preferences about a website.  Not all cookies are bad. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do I tell when I am being passed a "cookie" & how can I stop a site from accessing my hard drive? From what I hear they can come in and almost get your shorts size off your computer. <G Most browser have settings on whether or not to accept cookies, either with a warning or not at all. FWIW, most cookies store information about what *you* did or entered while visiting a site so you won’t have to do or enter it the next time, not the contents of your hard drive. — Charlie… Thanks. Found it on my browser & xed the box. Kiyu

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I’d like to know just what kind of invasion you think Loomis or any other site my make by using a cookie? So would I, just what kind of info are they looking for – and just who gives them the right to snoop in my computer anyway?

They don’t have the right to snoop  your HD.  And, most likely they are not.  They DO have the right to check on your activity on their site and keep track of it.  That’s what cookies do. Companies like loomis use them to keep track of their potential customers, and their activities in their web site Good point – which is why they did not get my information.  I have no intention of becoming a customer.  Let’s say you go into a fly shop and the clerk follows you around and whenever you go to look at a rod or reel or anything else he says, " before you can look at this item you have to tell me where else you have been shopping and any other information I want or you can’t look at it". Would you do business there?  If on the otherhand they ask me to fill out a survey and I have the time, I just might do that.

Shop owners keep track too.  If nobody seems interested in a particular product they won’t buy any more of it.  They may not follow you around the store, but they ARE paying attention – atleast they should be if they want to stay in business. What else would they want?  Are you keeping a pirated copy of one of their fly rods on your hard drive?  Are you distributing specs on their golf club shafts from home via the net? I am sure I have no idea what else they would want, but as long as they are not going to disclose what information they are seeking, I am not going to give them the opportunity to snoop around in my hard drive.  It’s a question of privacy.  If in order to view their products I have to open my computer up to them, I just simply am not going to look.

You don’t.  You simply accept what amounts to a text file that the site writes to every time you log in.  It beats having some poor schmuck watching logfiles on the server to see what you’re doing (another way to gather info). If Loomis really wanted to find out things about _you_ there are better ways to do it without building some devious little executable to sneak in as a cookie to scan your hard drive. Just knowing that that is possible is reason enough not to accept cookies.

Y’know, you probably don’t even realize it, but you hit sites every day, that check to see what browser you’re using and what plugins are available, and it redirects you to an appropriate file you can see.  Most sites use JavaScript to do this.  Some sites use server-side techniques to do this, but most use JavaScript.  You download it and it goes to work. Cookies aren’t a whole lot different. And hitting this newsgroup is a lot more dangerous to your system that any website.  All kinds of evil, nasty things can be spread by seemingly innocent usenet posts. And as a person who make a living from that same kind of technology, I can say that e-commerce on the web – a thing most of want to see – is almost impossible without cookies and similar technology. That is ridiculous.  I do a lot of business on the WWW, and  I do not accept cookies.  I have never had a problem with a legitimate company even if I did not accept their cookies, and I have never been locked out of a WWW business site for not accepting one before Loomis.  The only reason you want the "cookie" technology is so that you can direct your advertising dollars more wisely.  There is nothing wrong with that as long as the information given up is done so on a voluntary basis.  Most companies allow that choice.  Loomis does not.  Therefore I choose not to do business with them.  

People get, and take info about you all the time in every walk of life.   People who want to know, or need to know, can get scads of info about you without your ever knowing it. And the worst part of it is, you don’t really know what the Loomis cookie is doing, do you?  Chances are it’s only logging your activity on their site and nothing more.  What else could they possibly want to know?  What email program you use?  What good would that do them. My slant is they want to know what you’re doing so they can use it to improve their site or product line and nothing else. And if you’re son parnoid about the net, I would suggest you get off of it and try something a little more passive. </c

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This post started as a fly-fishing post (Loomis website) but has turned into a computer debate. Decide what you want to do and do it. If you want to continue this post, please move it to rec.computer.people.with.too.much.idle.time.on.their.hands.      Thanks,       Bryce

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BULLSHIT. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Before you go condemning G. Loomis, you should really make sure you really understand what cookies do.  Often times, they are simply used to track repeat visitors.  If you look at the kind of data stored in a cookie, you will see it isn’t really a big deal, and can actually be helpful… For example, the Amazon.com web site sends a cookie to its customers, and when I connect to the web site, it is able to read the cookie and know who I am, what my book and layout preferences are, and simplifies the ordering process… They really aren’t any all that dangerous to your privacy…

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How do I tell when I am being passed a "cookie" & how can I stop a site from accessing my hard drive? From what I hear they can come in and almost get your shorts size off your computer. <G Most browser have settings on whether or not to accept cookies, either with a warning or not at all. FWIW, most cookies store information about what *you* did or entered while visiting a site so you won’t have to do or enter it the next time, not the contents of your hard drive. — Charlie…

Thanks. Found it on my browser & xed the box. Kiyu

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Well, I agree that cookies aren’t very significant invasions of privacy

Question:

Hi, I am moving to Dusserdorf in the near future. I am thinking of taking my flyfishing equipment with me, or at least tie some flies while I am there. So if anybody can help me with these questions, I would preciate. Are there any areas for fly fishing in that area?

Hi Jussi Virtanen, do you mean Duesseldorf in Germany ? If it is, I can help you.      Michael  …. tie a fly when the trout comes high,          that’s high ..                                          mail: it’s only my opinion                 Michael Nolte

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Hi, I am moving to Dusserdorf in the near future. I am thinking of taking my flyfishing equipment with me, or at least tie some flies while I am there. So if anybody can help me with these questions, I would preciate. Are there any areas for fly fishing in that area? Can I get supplies to tie my own flies from that area ? (important) How well equipped area the local shops in that area ?                         Jussi Virtanen

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Question:

Destination question for the group: I am planning (on very short notice) a family vacation to Destin/Panama City, Fla.  Should be arriving down there Saturday 6/24. I’ll be driving this time, so I’ll have my vehicle at my disposal. The trip will be heavily slanted towards keeping my wife (not a fisherman) and my three kids (8,6 & 4) happy, but I will have some time available for myself. I assume there’s inshore opportunity for speckled trout, redfish, maybe small tarpon and even snook. On previous trips I’ve been able to do a little evening/morning fishing scattered in here and there. I also usually get away with a half day or so of fishing. The 1/2 day will probably be spent fishing off a party boat or "six pack" type charter. As far as tackle goes, I have to admit I havent much experience with salt water fly fishing. There are no saltwater opportunities in Missouri I’ve got a few BIG deceivers that I’ve used for yellowtail, baracuda and bonita off boats out of southern CA & baja Mexico. I also have an assortment of jigs & plugs for my spinning & casting tackle. Most of this is your typical heavy lead jigs and lipped diving plugs like "Cisco Kid". I’ve got a Sage 890RPL. I use an 8wt Bass Bug Taper line on it. The reel is a Lamson 3. There’s about 100 yds of backing. I’ll also be taking a 7 1/2′ spinning rod with 200+ yds of 17lb mono. I haven’t booked a room yet, but I’m sure we’ll be staying beachfront. So here come the questions:  1) Where to fish  2) What to fish with, epecially inshore in the surf or around     jetties/piers/bridges. I am no longer into chucking a hunk     of squid or shrimp out and seeing what happens. I don’t need     to use fly tackle exclusively, but that would be nice.  3) Any advice along the lines of how to spend the 1/2 day fishing     trip. Open to almost anything.  and 4) What kind of things other than the beach and pool are there         to do for the family.  *** THANKS IN ADVANCE! ***  -Mark-              ,              O          .:/          Mark Devino          ,,///;,   ,;/   Sr. Recruiter   o     o:::::::;;///    APPLIED DATA SYSTEMS      . ::::::::;;\    St. Louis/St. Charles, Missouri               ‘;      "I fish, therefore I lie"

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: Destination question for the group: : I am planning (on very short notice) a family vacation to : Destin/Panama City, Fla.  Should be arriving down there : Saturday 6/24. Which one, Destin and Panama City are like an hour plus apart.   Destin and Ft. Walton Beach are just across the bridge from each other.  If you are in Panama City, I can’t offer any help. : I’ll be driving this time, so I’ll have my vehicle at my disposal. : The trip will be heavily slanted towards keeping my wife (not a : fisherman) and my three kids (8,6 & 4) happy, but I will have : some time available for myself. I assume there’s inshore : opportunity for speckled trout, redfish, maybe small tarpon : and even snook. : On previous trips I’ve been able to do a little evening/morning : fishing scattered in here and there. I also usually get away with : a half day or so of fishing. The 1/2 day will probably be spent : fishing off a party boat or "six pack" type charter. : As far as tackle goes, I have to admit I havent much experience : with salt water fly fishing. There are no saltwater opportunities : in Missouri I’ve got a few BIG deceivers that I’ve used for : yellowtail, baracuda and bonita off boats out of southern CA & : baja Mexico. I also have an assortment of jigs & plugs for my : spinning & casting tackle. Most of this is your typical heavy : lead jigs and lipped diving plugs like "Cisco Kid". : I’ve got a Sage 890RPL. I use an 8wt Bass Bug Taper line on it. Perfect.   : The reel is a Lamson 3. There’s about 100 yds of backing. I’ll : also be taking a 7 1/2′ spinning rod with 200+ yds of 17lb : mono. I haven’t booked a room yet, but I’m sure we’ll be : staying beachfront. : So here come the questions: :  1) Where to fish If you are in Destin, find a public beach on Chochtahachie (sp) Bay and wade out to whatever grass flats you can find.  The deceivers should work fine for Specs and Reds.  Maybe some crab or shrimp patterns would also be useful. The surf or jetties at east pass should give you some opportunities to strip some deceivers past some nice fish.   :  2) What to fish with, epecially inshore in the surf or around :     jetties/piers/bridges. I am no longer into chucking a hunk :     of squid or shrimp out and seeing what happens. I don’t need :     to use fly tackle exclusively, but that would be nice. Jigs on spinning gear work well but with the 8 weight you can rig up some front weighted flys that would act similarily. :  3) Any advice along the lines of how to spend the 1/2 day fishing :     trip. Open to almost anything. :  and 4) What kind of things other than the beach and pool are there :         to do for the family. Left Ft. Walton 16 years ago, so I don’t really know what is there any more. :  *** THANKS IN ADVANCE! *** Good luck and have fun. Bryan :  -Mark- :              ,             :  O          .:/          Mark Devino :          ,,///;,   ,;/   Sr. Recruiter :   o     o:::::::;;///    APPLIED DATA SYSTEMS :      . ::::::::;;\    St. Louis/St. Charles, Missouri   :             ‘; :      "I fish, therefore I lie"

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Don’t forget to take some Clousers-no better fly for anything in the salt.  Lady fish in the surf or trout/reds on the flats eat them like nothing else.

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Question:

I will be in yosemite along the merced river  sept 13 for 10 days and would appreciate any advice on that or other nearby rivers: eg, patterns, line weight, good areas, guides, weather conditions, etc, etc.  please email me and thanks for the help.   daved

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writes: I will be in yosemite along the merced river  sept 13 for 10 days and would appreciate any advice on that or other nearby rivers: eg, patterns, line weight, good areas, guides, weather conditions, etc, etc.  please email me and thanks for the help.   daved

I’ve never fished it, but "California Fly Fisher" magazine had a short article in their July-Aug ‘93 issue on the Merced.  Call them at (415)621-3117, maybe they can send you a back issue.  They said the better fishing for wild trout is outside the park.  Good luck, Bill Uyeki

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