Question:

Hi Folks, I made the long trip from Oz to Orlando for a conference and on Saturday 5th of May got out to Titusville for a fish. I wanted to stop in at The Flyfisherman store, but they didn’t open until 10am, so I sniffed out a likely spot on Mosquito Lagoon about 8am and got started. It was a windy as hell which limited my options and the water was pretty dirty. I put on a white and pink clouser and nervous of crocs, oops, gators, started wading. After 45 min of nothing, I hooked up solid to a decent sized fish in knee deep water that turned out to be a spotted sea trout about 3lb. Soon after I got another about 4lb or so. I really wanted to catch a red so I packed up and went into the Flyfisherman for help. The guys there were really friendly and Chris there drew me a map to one of his favourite secret spots (he doesn’t mind showing them to visitors from a far ). I went forth to spot X on the Indian R with some prefered local flies, being told to shuffle out to a knee deep grass bank and wait patiently for something to happen. After about 20 min, 3 or 4 big red tails popped up through the wind chop about 40 feet to my right. The wind was at that nasty level where flyline comes out of the rod tip sideways. I took 2 or 3 tries to get the fly to them and I ended up slamming it down right over where I thought they were. To cut a sad story short, I don’t know if I spooked them or if they just doddled along their way invisible under the choppy surface – but I didn’t get a touch off them and lost track of them. I stayed out there another 2 hours and didn’t see another thing! In calmer conditions, this kind of fishing would be fantastic, alas, I had my chances and dudded out completely on the reds. I will return!!!!! Thanks to Anis Popp and R Dean for their advice and putting me onto The Flyfisherman. Cheers John K Sydney Flyrodders — John Knight ALEMITE LUBREQUIP PTY LTD mobile 0407 959100 office 61-2-99382999 fax 61-2-99053631

Response:

I stayed out there another 2 hours and didn’t see another thing! In calmer conditions, this kind of fishing would be fantastic, alas, I had my chances and dudded out completely on the reds. I will return!!!!!

Nice report.  I’ve only fished FL once since leaving Gainesville in the early 90s.  Your story brought back pleasant memories. At least you dudded out on the reds and not on the redds.  ;-)  Better luck next time. JR

Response:

I’m glad you enjoyed yourself. I assume you were told Redds are quite moody and what spooks them one minute drives them to mall a fly the next. When the shrimp are running at haul over they’ll nail just about anything. Possibly the fish were cognizant of the shock to your nervous system that would have occurred if you had tied into one of the biggie redds of the area. When you consider most of them caught are too BIG to keep you can see why this is a popular fishing spot. — John Popp in Sanford Fl.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Folks, I made the long trip from Oz to Orlando for a conference and on Saturday 5th of May got out to Titusville for a fish. I wanted to stop in at The Flyfisherman store, but they didn’t open until 10am, so I sniffed out a likely spot on Mosquito Lagoon about 8am and got started. It was a windy as hell which limited my options and the water was pretty dirty. I put on a white and pink clouser and nervous of crocs, oops, gators, started wading. After 45 min of nothing, I hooked up solid to a decent sized fish in knee deep water that turned out to be a spotted sea trout about 3lb. Soon after I got another about 4lb or so. I really wanted to catch a red so I packed up and went into the Flyfisherman for help. The guys there were really friendly and Chris there drew me a map to one of his favourite secret spots (he doesn’t mind showing them to visitors from a far ). I went forth to spot X on the Indian R with some prefered local flies, being told to shuffle out to a knee deep grass bank and wait patiently for something to happen. After about 20 min, 3 or 4 big red tails popped up through the wind chop about 40 feet to my right. The wind was at that nasty level where flyline comes out of the rod tip sideways. I took 2 or 3 tries to get the fly to them and I ended up slamming it down right over where I thought they were. To cut a sad story short, I don’t know if I spooked them or if they just doddled along their way invisible under the choppy surface – but I didn’t get a touch off them and lost track of them. I stayed out there another 2 hours and didn’t see another thing! In calmer conditions, this kind of fishing would be fantastic, alas, I had my chances and dudded out completely on the reds. I will return!!!!! Thanks to Anis Popp and R Dean for their advice and putting me onto The Flyfisherman. Cheers John K Sydney Flyrodders — John Knight ALEMITE LUBREQUIP PTY LTD mobile 0407 959100 office 61-2-99382999 fax 61-2-99053631

Response:

The ones I saw I guessed at 10-15lb. I was just above knee deep and they had big fat tails sticking up 4"-5" from the chop. It was good fun – Chris at The Flyfisherman said he has seen them tailing in 3 feet of water so I know what you mean about maximum sizes. When they are close by can you hear or feel them? About the time I saw them I sensed croaking or popping sounds coming up my spine and at the back of my neck – was that them or something else (like shrimps) they  were feeding on? Sorry about the name John, I went from memory yesterday. Regards John K Sydney Flyrodders

Response:

Thanks to Anis Popp and R Dean for their advice and putting me onto The Flyfisherman.

You’re more than welcome. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Cheers John K Sydney Flyrodders

Response:

– John Popp in Sanford Fl.

The ones I saw I guessed at 10-15lb. I was just above knee deep and they had big fat tails sticking up 4"-5" from the chop. It was good fun – Chris at The Flyfisherman said he has seen them tailing in 3 feet of water so I know what you mean about maximum sizes. When they are close by can you hear or feel them? About the time I saw them I sensed croaking or popping sounds coming up my spine and at the back of my neck – was that them or something else (like shrimps) they  were feeding on?

They do croak, like a croaker. Most people miss that as they fish from boats. They must have been on a young oyster bed, they make a popimg sound as the fish crush the shells. they will often also leave a cloud like discoloration in the water. It’s not bottom but the crushed up shell fish remains they emit. As for gators, they do frequent the intercoastal occasionally but prefer fresh water right now folks who have pools close to open water better look before they leap. by the way you were just a bit early due to the weather, but then a good spot kinda beats a brookie. And I was hopeing for you. John Popp in Sanford Fl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry about the name John, I went from memory yesterday. Regards John K Sydney Flyrodders

Response:

Hey Dean;     While you were in G-ville did you ever get over to St.Augestine Beach to fish flounder with a fly? I tied into a winter flounder over there about 20 yrs ago that measured exactly 3′. Did it on a 6wt fiberglass, it took about 45 min. to get it out of the water. It spit the fly when on the beach. Man we hustled to keep it from being a catch and return. My wife grabbed the rod and pinned it and I belly flopped on it. It was delicious. I think that was a once in a lifetime experience for a po boy. — John Popp in Sanford Fl.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to Anis Popp and R Dean for their advice and putting me onto The Flyfisherman. You’re more than welcome. TC, R Cheers John K Sydney Flyrodders

Response:

I thought the popping sound was them – damn I’m cranky I never got one. I saw a big gator on the Mosquito Lagoon side – about 8′ – laying on the fresh water side of the roadway. A kid picnicking with his parents pointed it out to me, he was throwing bait at it. Dopey things – Believe me, there is no way I would have been that close to an Aussie croc without a .44! Cheers John K

Response:

Question:

yep agree completely…as a newbie to the sport I finally got serious and traded in the 7 wt telephone pole and now use a nice Redington actually it was a gift from a friend. I have practised with that sucker and gone to some classes and it certainly does help with a newer model and constant practise I agree whole heartedly with your assesment and here on the Bow River you NEED practise. but then the rewards are great! Pierre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I had to take a second look at my casting when I got and Orvis Trident 6wt. after sending in my PM10 to be repaired (broken tip) They took over a month so they gave me an upgrade in the form of the new Trident. I tried the Trident and decided I liked the PM10 better, it hid my mistakes but when I told the fly shop guy I liked the PM10 better he said most people really don’t know how to cast but if I still wanted a PM10 again I could trade back. I got slightly offended but decided to give it another chance, I looked back through the magazine casting tips and practiced. I am by no means the best and real instruction would help me alot but I can fish trout here in Colo half a day making 10′ – 30′ then fish bass or whatever using heavy patterns at long distances the rest of the day. I find simple mistakes make a difference like for acccuracy having the right foot forward I look at others casting and many have thier feet together  or they move thier bodies too much during a short cast, or people making too many false casts when going for distance with too much line out to control. Sometimes when everything is working right I don’t have to think about casting, I just do it and it reminds me of some type of dance or martial arts where everything is smooth and rythmic and as fast or slow short or long as it needs to be. Onew thing I know is if you have to work too hard with the right equiptment you are to blame. If not for the guy at the fly shop I would still be making the same mistakes that my teaching myself to cast has caused. Enjoy… nyroc.rr.com… IMHO, the importantance of casting accurately far exceeds the ability to cast distance. Recently I read an article where the author has that same opinion. However, I’d like to share the authors definition of casting accuracy and hear your comments. Here is the section of the article in which the author provides his/her (author is unknown) definition. Also, note the title of the article: "YOU CAN’T CAST! …. between 70 & 80% of fly fishers just can’t cast. Very simply put … putting the fly where it belongs. The question is…"Can you put your fly where you want it 85% of the time?" If you can’t, then you can’t cast! A good test for casting ability is to put a 24" circle at about 30 feet and see how many times you can put the fly in the circle. The 30 foot range is about the average cast you might make when fishing for trout. Even with a breeze, getting the fly in the circle 9 out of 10 casts is possible". Now I’ve participated in several similar exercises at which there were about 20 flyfishers, guides, casting instructors and fly fishing retailers. I will withhold the results of those experiences until after you ROFFians have a chance to express your opinions. I hope you who reply base your opinions on experience rather then wishful thinking or ego. So let’s hear it. Using typical trout equipment for a medium stream, how many can drop a fly within 12 inches of the center of a 24 inch circle while standing about 30′ away, knee deep or deeper in a stream/river in typical trout season weather? Hi Allan, the author is perfectly correct, as indeed you are. Accuracy is of paramount importance.   We now regularly hold special casting clinics here at one of my local clubs. The first one we held, some years ago, was a cast-in for the whole area, as further instructors were needed at many clubs in order to comply with the German fishing laws that casting skill of a certain level must be achieved before a licence is granted.  We had one hundred and forty three casters taking part on this particular day, all wanting to obtain an instructors certificate. ( The instructors certificate is considerably more difficult to obtain than the licence itself ). This is all honorary, and no financial reward etc is attached to the licence, and it is only valid for instruction at a state fisheries exam so nothing can be made from it either in financial terms. The emphasis is on accuracy, and control. Distance casting is not required. In the accuracy test,  points are given for casting at various distances to a series of rings the inner ring of which is ten inches in diameter, and progresses out to 120 inches in diameter.  The rings are laid out on grass, and carefully measured. The inner ring is ten points, each subsequent ring of greater diameter one point less, and there are five rings. Ten casts are allowed, there is no time limit, or limit on false casts etc.  There are no restrictions on rods, lines leader length etc ( some were using four foot leaders !!! ).The minimum requirement to obtain a fishing licence is 30 points.  The instructors requirement is 45 points.  Of all the gentlemen who cast on this occasion, many of whom had been fishing for a long time, in some cases twenty years and more, and considered themselves good casters, only three, including myself and my wife ( who was the only woman present ), managed to reach or exceed the minimum instructors requirements at first. Many complained that there was a crosswind, and for this reason they were unable to cast. After eleven  casters had cast  ( including myself and my wife ) the complaints were so loud, that the state judges moved the casting blocks so that the relatively slight wind was from behind the casters.  My wife and I and one other caster were asked if we would mind casting again under the better conditions, although we had met the necessary requirements. We agreed to do so.  Many people had also in the meantime apparently complained that my wife and I were using "English methods ", which was unfair !!!!   And now for the results: In the first round ( with cross wind ) I cast 87  and my wife cast 81 points, the other caster who was asked to cast again cast 57 points. No other caster achieved more than thirty points, some missing the target all together. In the second round,  after the blocks were moved, I cast 94 points my wife 87 points, one other gentleman cast 67 points, and only three others reached the minimum 45 points required for an instructors certificate, some in fact not even managing the thirty points required for a normal fishing licence although all those present already posessed one ), and quite a few missing the target altogether. I wish to stress here that this is not a competition, it is a state fisheries law requirement that instructors reach a certain level of expertise, and that would be anglers also reach a minimum of casting skill before being granted a licence. This is of course in addition to the theoretical written exam requirements. The standard of casting was appalling, and many who were certain that they were excellent casters got very pissed off indeed when they saw their actual results.  Quite a few of those present came over to talk to myself and my wife after the exam was over, and wanted advice and instruction.  Several points arose from this: None of those present had had any decent formal instruction, but had "taught themselves", or "been taught by a friend". Most of the equipment in use was mismatched, and in most cases far too heavy for normal trout  fishing, #7 sinking lines and 10 foot rods like broomsticks being fairly common. A few people had fairly decent rods, but the lines were so hopelessly mismatched that it was well nigh impossible to cast with them. Every single one of those present had hopelessly overestimated their abilities, and this was a shock to most of them. We were asked to do a demo for quite a few of the people who stayed around, and strangely enough, although it had just been amply demonstrated to all present that their accuracy and general casting was abysmal, the most asked question was "how can I increase my casting distance". We did a quick survey of those present, ( about forty people ), asking them how far they could cast, and noted the results. These were checked with a tape measure afterwards as each person cast.  Every single person present overestimated their distance capabilities sometimes by twenty feet or even in some cases appreciably more. We set up an area and did a few distance casts with gear I had in the car, and then watched as a few very nearly bust their guts trying to reach anything like the distance.  Only one of those present was familiar with the double haul, and he was lousy at it.  Quite a few others got quite angry, saying I and my wife must be using "tricks" or "special rods " or "lines" or that we were "professionals from England" or something. Over the years in the UK and here I have seen many people casting, and the general standards are awful.  It is a very sobering experience for many to try the exercise you mention in your  post under controlled conditions. What is even stranger is that even lousy casters are proud of their supposed abilities, and get very upset indeed when shown that it is not as good as they would like to believe. A matter of misplaced pride I believe. The reluctance to take lessons, or be shown anything is also rather remarkable. You are more likely to anger somebody by casting better

… read more »

Response:

If my fly lands in water I declare it a direct hit. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

If my fly lands in water I declare it a direct hit.

Seems reasonable Tim, better than landing in a tree anyway, but not necessarily better than landing in a bush ! TL MC

Response:

I’m pretty good at stretching my backcast 1/2" too far to catch the tip of the last branch of the last bush on the bank. I’d say that’s pretty accurate…

I hear ya…it takes supreme accuracy and nerves of steel to lose 3 double rigged dropper setups in the exact same branch 3 casts in a row after missing a nice one (fish). — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

If my fly lands in water I declare it a direct hit. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

_______  I was prepared to read something more recondite regarding your casting in the woods.

Response:

My talent precisely.  In fact, I also seem to have an uncanny ability for tying superb knots with my airborne leader and fly around the very same branch. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m pretty good at stretching my backcast 1/2" too far to catch the tip of the last branch of the last bush on the bank. I’d say that’s pretty accurate… JonCook. — Fishermen kill fish. This is who we are.

Response:

_______  I was prepared to read something more recondite regarding your casting in the woods.

        boy, asadi, you have shit in your hat now.  wait ’til george finds out you have posted under his name without proper accreditation! wayno

Response:

Mike,   Your post should serve as a wake up call to all of us who still have some freedom in fishing.  I am certain if PETA was given a free hand there would be none.

These sort of restrictions -doubtless spawned by humane motivations- would drive me utterly insane. Nothing that Mike Connor has posted on these subjects has done anything than fill me with dread for the future. I have been a Euro-sceptic since the great con of 1974 and that ’scepticism’ has deepened into downright mistrust. I am amazed that such an evidently free spirit as MC can stand it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony, these measures are not European measures, but local German measures. There’s no European legislation on sportsfishing (yet). Cheers, Herman These sort of restrictions -doubtless spawned by humane motivations- would drive me utterly insane. Nothing that Mike Connor has posted on these subjects has done anything than fill me with dread for the future. I have been a Euro-sceptic since the great con of 1974 and that ’scepticism’ has deepened into downright mistrust. I am amazed that such an evidently free spirit as MC can stand it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

<SNIP Tony, as far as I am aware most of these regulations are specific to Germany. No other European country has such regulations "yet". Germany is continually being cited all over Europe as the "enlightened forerunner" with regard to pollution, animal rights, etc etc. Although I do not know all of the different countries regulations of course. I cant stand it !  But I have no choice, I live here ! TL MC

Response:

Big deal.  I can tie knots that would make ol’ King Gordius proud around my rod which end up requiring the Alexandrian solution. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My talent precisely.  In fact, I also seem to have an uncanny ability for tying superb knots with my airborne leader and fly around the very same branch. Bob I’m pretty good at stretching my backcast 1/2" too far to catch the tip of the last branch of the last bush on the bank. I’d say that’s pretty accurate… JonCook. — Fishermen kill fish. This is who we are.

Response:

Well I had to take a second look at my casting when I got and Orvis Trident 6wt. after sending in my PM10 to be repaired (broken tip) They took over a month so they gave me an upgrade in the form of the new Trident. I tried the Trident and decided I liked the PM10 better, it hid my mistakes but when I told the fly shop guy I liked the PM10 better he said most people really don’t know how to cast but if I still wanted a PM10 again I could trade back.   I got slightly offended but decided to give it another chance, I looked back through the magazine casting tips and practiced. I am by no means the best and real instruction would help me alot but I can fish trout here in Colo half a day making 10′ – 30′ then fish bass or whatever using heavy patterns at long distances the rest of the day. I find simple mistakes make a difference like for acccuracy having the right foot forward I look at others casting and many have thier feet together  or they move thier bodies too much during a short cast, or people making too many false casts when going for distance with too much line out to control. Sometimes when everything is working right I don’t have to think about casting, I just do it and it reminds me of some type of dance or martial arts where everything is smooth and rythmic and as fast or slow short or long as it needs to be. Onew thing I know is if you have to work too hard with the right equiptment you are to blame. If not for the guy at the fly shop I would still be making the same mistakes that my teaching myself to cast has caused. Enjoy…     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nyroc.rr.com… IMHO, the importantance of casting accurately far exceeds the ability to cast distance. Recently I read an article where the author has that same opinion. However, I’d like to share the authors definition of casting accuracy and hear your comments. Here is the section of the article in which the author provides his/her (author is unknown) definition. Also, note the title of the article: "YOU CAN’T CAST! …. between 70 & 80% of fly fishers just can’t cast. Very simply put … putting the fly where it belongs. The question is…"Can you put your fly where you want it 85% of the time?" If you can’t, then you can’t cast! A good test for casting ability is to put a 24" circle at about 30 feet and see how many times you can put the fly in the circle. The 30 foot range is about the average cast you might make when fishing for trout. Even with a breeze, getting the fly in the circle 9 out of 10 casts is possible". Now I’ve participated in several similar exercises at which there were about 20 flyfishers, guides, casting instructors and fly fishing retailers. I will withhold the results of those experiences until after you ROFFians have a chance to express your opinions. I hope you who reply base your opinions on experience rather then wishful thinking or ego. So let’s hear it. Using typical trout equipment for a medium stream, how many can drop a fly within 12 inches of the center of a 24 inch circle while standing about 30′ away, knee deep or deeper in a stream/river in typical trout season weather? Hi Allan, the author is perfectly correct, as indeed you are. Accuracy is of paramount importance.   We now regularly hold special casting clinics here at one of my local clubs. The first one we held, some years ago, was a cast-in for the whole area, as further instructors were needed at many clubs in order to comply with the German fishing laws that casting skill of a certain level must be achieved before a licence is granted.  We had one hundred and forty three casters taking part on this particular day, all wanting to obtain an instructors certificate. ( The instructors certificate is considerably more difficult to obtain than the licence itself ). This is all honorary, and no financial reward etc is attached to the licence, and it is only valid for instruction at a state fisheries exam so nothing can be made from it either in financial terms. The emphasis is on accuracy, and control. Distance casting is not required. In the accuracy test,  points are given for casting at various distances to a series of rings the inner ring of which is ten inches in diameter, and progresses out to 120 inches in diameter.  The rings are laid out on grass, and carefully measured. The inner ring is ten points, each subsequent ring of greater diameter one point less, and there are five rings. Ten casts are allowed, there is no time limit, or limit on false casts etc.  There are no restrictions on rods, lines leader length etc ( some were using four foot leaders !!! ).The minimum requirement to obtain a fishing licence is 30 points.  The instructors requirement is 45 points.  Of all the gentlemen who cast on this occasion, many of whom had been fishing for a long time, in some cases twenty years and more, and considered themselves good casters, only three, including myself and my wife ( who was the only woman present ), managed to reach or exceed the minimum instructors requirements at first. Many complained that there was a crosswind, and for this reason they were unable to cast. After eleven  casters had cast  ( including myself and my wife ) the complaints were so loud, that the state judges moved the casting blocks so that the relatively slight wind was from behind the casters.  My wife and I and one other caster were asked if we would mind casting again under the better conditions, although we had met the necessary requirements. We agreed to do so.  Many people had also in the meantime apparently complained that my wife and I were using "English methods ", which was unfair !!!!   And now for the results: In the first round ( with cross wind ) I cast 87  and my wife cast 81 points, the other caster who was asked to cast again cast 57 points. No other caster achieved more than thirty points, some missing the target all together. In the second round,  after the blocks were moved, I cast 94 points my wife 87 points, one other gentleman cast 67 points, and only three others reached the minimum 45 points required for an instructors certificate, some in fact not even managing the thirty points required for a normal fishing licence although all those present already posessed one ), and quite a few missing the target altogether. I wish to stress here that this is not a competition, it is a state fisheries law requirement that instructors reach a certain level of expertise, and that would be anglers also reach a minimum of casting skill before being granted a licence. This is of course in addition to the theoretical written exam requirements. The standard of casting was appalling, and many who were certain that they were excellent casters got very pissed off indeed when they saw their actual results.  Quite a few of those present came over to talk to myself and my wife after the exam was over, and wanted advice and instruction.  Several points arose from this: None of those present had had any decent formal instruction, but had "taught themselves", or "been taught by a friend". Most of the equipment in use was mismatched, and in most cases far too heavy for normal trout  fishing, #7 sinking lines and 10 foot rods like broomsticks being fairly common. A few people had fairly decent rods, but the lines were so hopelessly mismatched that it was well nigh impossible to cast with them. Every single one of those present had hopelessly overestimated their abilities, and this was a shock to most of them. We were asked to do a demo for quite a few of the people who stayed around, and strangely enough, although it had just been amply demonstrated to all present that their accuracy and general casting was abysmal, the most asked question was "how can I increase my casting distance". We did a quick survey of those present, ( about forty people ), asking them how far they could cast, and noted the results. These were checked with a tape measure afterwards as each person cast.  Every single person present overestimated their distance capabilities sometimes by twenty feet or even in some cases appreciably more. We set up an area and did a few distance casts with gear I had in the car, and then watched as a few very nearly bust their guts trying to reach anything like the distance.  Only one of those present was familiar with the double haul, and he was lousy at it.  Quite a few others got quite angry, saying I and my wife must be using "tricks" or "special rods " or "lines" or that we were "professionals from England" or something. Over the years in the UK and here I have seen many people casting, and the general standards are awful.  It is a very sobering experience for many to try the exercise you mention in your  post under controlled conditions. What is even stranger is that even lousy casters are proud of their supposed abilities, and get very upset indeed when shown that it is not as good as they would like to believe. A matter of misplaced pride I believe. The reluctance to take lessons, or be shown anything is also rather remarkable. You are more likely to anger somebody by casting better and showing them how, than you are to elicit gratitude. Women by the way being generally far easier to teach than men in my experience. ( I taught my wife as well ). I would imagine that the casting abilities of the average fly-angler in the States is not much better than that detailed above either. I would suggest as well that anybody wishing to improve as an angler should practice dropping his fly into a bucket or similar, or even a hula hoop at various measured ranges up to say forty feet. If you can do this consistently then distance will never be a problem for you, and you will certainly catch more fish. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Hi Mike, Can you please explain the reasoning behind this requirement?! Surely, if one is a crap caster, one merely fails to catch many/any fish?! No one suffers, least of all the fish! It’s not like a driving or a flying licence where the safety of the driver/pilot and others is a stake. There is much that I find daft and barmy about German fishery laws (as you have been kind enough to vouchsafe to us): this, not the least of it. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Hi Tony, One of the reasons for the complex fishery laws is the fact that they are also affected by a number of laws not directly connected with actual fishing. Just to give you an example for instance, nobody in Germany under the age of 16 years may hold a fishing or hunting licence, as it is illegal for a minor to be involved in the killing of a vertebrate animal.  This means minors may not go fishing at all except when accompanied by a licence holding adult, and they are still not allowed to catch and dispatch fish. Rights of access are complicated, Animal rights issues, environment conservation, fish recognition, habitat knowledge,  ethics and the law, rights of acquisition, size limits, closed seasons, sanctuary rules, how to kill a vertebrate animal humanely, and a host of other subjects are covered in the theoretical instruction prior to the angling examination. At the moment a minimum of thirty six hours theoretical instruction is mandatory,  and one must of course pass the written test at the end of this. The instruction includes fishery laws, environmental laws, animal rights laws, and a great deal of other stuff. Assuming you do your homework well, and get all the necessary info and literature together, it is possible to manage this in the minimum allotted time, but only just barely. For most people they must reckon with three to six months hard slog before they can take the test. The mandatory instruction is usually carried out on the premises of a local school etc, on the basis of four or five hours, a couple of evenings a week for six weeks or so. Casting and other tuition is extra, depending on the licence one wishes to obtain.  A "normal" fishing licence for general bait fishing requires that you pass several tests and the written exam.  If you wish to go "spinfishing", extra tests and stricter rules are applied. If you want to go fly-fishing, you must first have passed all the other tests, and may then take the fly-fishing test.  Upon passing the tests you have chosen, either one, two or all, you then receive a "Sportfisherpass" as proof that you passed the tests. This must be carried at all times along with the state fishing licence you may then apply for, as well as identification in the form of passport or ID card. The whole thing is very cheap, and theoretically you could pass the exam for as little as thirty marks ( about ten quid )you must then obtain a  licence on the strength of this. These vary from state to state at the moment, as specific fishery laws lie in the hands of federal state government. The licence itself costs about ten quid, and in some states you must pay this every year or at regular intervals. Other country-wide laws override some state laws, but not in all states, and some states laws are different to others. As it happens my licence is valid for life. No clubs will admit anglers to their ranks without a licence, and a "sportfischerpass" which you receive when you pass the exam, detailing the disciplines you have successfully passed . You are only allowed to do the type of fishing for which you have a valid "sportfischerpass"  this includes angling in coastal waters by the way, A sportfischerpass and licence is mandatory everywhere in Germany for residents, even on put and take ponds. Non residents, i.e. Tourists may obtain temporary licences, if they produce proof that they hold or held a licence elsewhere,but they are unlikely to be able to do much fishing as for nearly all clubs now the "sportfischerpass" is mandatory. Some clubs may make exceptions and allow "guests" who are accompanied by a member. This may be in the form of a restricted "day ticket" type of thing, or in some clubs it is free, but whatever the guest catches is subtracted from the members quota. In one of my clubs the yearly quota for a member is a maximum forty fish per year. These may be Salmon Trout Grayling or Seatrout, or any combination of these fish, a maximum of four fish per day is allowed. Takeable fish must be immediately humanely killed and taken. The fishing day must be entered into the "catch book" which is also a mandatory requirement of most clubs, before fishing commences, and this must be carried at all times with the other documents listed above, and with a current copy of the fishery rules, fish taken must also be immediately entered into this book.  Possession of fish not entered is proof of "poaching", and will inevitably result in expulsion from the club, being charged in court, and automatic loss of fishing licence for life. It is considered very bad form to fish yourself when you have a guest, but it is not forbidden. Most other transgressions etc carry heavy punishments, and there are plenty of AR nuts there to make sure every angler who transgresses is dragged into court. The reasons usually given for all this are also complex.  But I will give it a try ! First it must be ensured that every angler is a responsible person, and has sufficient knowledge to carry out his pastime without breaking any laws or injuring anybody else.  In Germany if you damage another person or his property either wilfully or otherwise, you are personally responsible, no matter how the damage came about.  Most sensible anglers in Germany are insured against this, many through their clubs, which obtain special rates, though at the moment it is not mandatory. A certain level of casting expertise, and knowledge of relevant laws supposedly lowers the likelihood of anybody being injured or wrongfully molested. All waters in Germany are divided into contiguous "sections", irrespective of who owns them. Most still waters are considered single "sections", and there are private "put and  take" ponds which are the exclusive property of their owners to do with as they see fit. These sections are leased by the state fishery boards to clubs for a minimum of twelve years, the club being chosen which is in the greater public interest for that area, and local clubs being given first bite at the cherry. The board of owners, ( if several owners own that section), or even the single owner has a very restricted influence on who gets the lease, and also a restricted right to vote on prices etc. All clubs must be open to anybody who has a licence, or their chances of getting any water are zero.  No fishing rights are owned by private individuals. ( Except the put and takes already mentioned ). Some clubs regulate their membership by keeping the prices up, as the club subscriptions are set by the club committee and by general and open vote at the AGM of the club. Clubs may also set any restrictions they like over and above the normal fishery laws, but they may not set any lawful restrictions aside. One of my clubs for instance is fly only on the two rivers we lease, barbless hooks are mandatory, hook size is restricted, multiple hooks are forbidden, one fly only may be used at any one time, no other type of fishing is allowed. Catch and release is generally illegal. Put and take as it is generally understood elsewhere is also basically illegal but is tolerated to some extent, ( the letter of the law states that it is illegal to release a fish purely for the purpose of catching it, this is cruel and unnecessary ), is however under increasing pressure from AR organisations and the "greens" who favour the AR groups. Clubs must have a certain structure consisting of trained and examined personnel, before they can operate or obtain water. This usually means a fisheries officer per/ certain number of members, a bailiff / per certain number of members, an environmental officer, trained and examined fisheries personnel who may then be licensed to use fisheries equipment, such as electro-equipment, a training officer, a chairman, a treasurer, and all the other usual officers found on a committee. The clubs may ask for assistance from the local state fisheries board in some cases,  but are basically responsible for stocking maintaining and supervising the water themselves. Special licences are required in order to carry out certain operations, for instance re-introducing reared fingerling sea-trout, catching and stripping mature sea-trout for the purposes of breeding, and various other operations. All posts in the club are voluntary, and the incumbents are voted in or out at the AGM

Question:

See "Presentation" by Borger, or LaFontaine’s "Caddis" book.  Overpower a sidearm cast, just like skipping a stone on the water. It might work, but when I try it I always feel like a pompous ass. Oh-oh.  POLITICAL CORRECTION: for the illiterate out there, I mean that to be a four-legged animal, not somebody’s butt. BB

Response:

Thanks everyone for oyur help! I will let you know how I go… PS Got my second trout on fly yesterday…. Put up a terrific fight for the size.  I got three big runs from this fish with line stipping of at a rate of knots… I thought it was a monster but it turned out to be about 1.5 lb. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How do you skip a fly.  I have read and heard about doing this…but I have know idea what is ment by it… Can someone help me out on this please

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(and so did charlie choc) The author is Leonard M. Wright jr, "Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect," Dutton, 1972.

If, as charlie suggests, it is out of print, try the public libraries. Its a neat old book with some unorthodox solutions to some still relevant problems. The patterns he suggests and the materials he uses are not as water repellant nor as buoyant as the elk hair caddis, however, so you might want to use Wright’s technique, but stick with the EHC. brent

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Mike Here’s another method that’s worked for me.  Use a long rod, very long leader 12′ with a very light tippet and stand almost directly upstream of the fish.   As the fly approaches the end of the drag free drift, lift the rod tip up and get all of the line and leader out of the water.  The fly just lightly dances on top of the water.  I’ve had a ‘bow jump 6" out of the water to take a fly danced this way. It works best if the wind and stream currents are going the same way, but it is difficult to get right if they are in opposite directions. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

Response:

Brent The author is Leonard M. Wright jr, "Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect," Dutton, 1972. Dave Snedeker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (some good advice on technique and a probable origin for the technique) Mike: If you are looking to dig even deeper, check out "Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect" by (an author I know, but whose name escapes me this early on a sunday – damn that aluminum cookware!). He describes how to tie and fish the ‘fluttering caddis’, but using hackle barbules and mink hair rather than elk hair. In any case, as Walt points out, the fish love the fly and the technique. good luck brent

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How do you skip a fly.  I have read and heard about doing this…but I have know idea what is ment by it… Can someone help me out on this please

maybe try looking at some of Lefty’s writings – also try FFM website, www.flyshop.com.  http://www.newsfeeds.com/       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

(some good advice on technique and a probable origin for the technique) Mike: If you are looking to dig even deeper, check out "Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect" by (an author I know, but whose name escapes me this early on a sunday – damn that aluminum cookware!). He describes how to tie and fish the ‘fluttering caddis’, but using hackle barbules and mink hair rather than elk hair. In any case, as Walt points out, the fish love the fly and the technique. good luck brent

Response:

How do you skip a fly.  I have read and heard about doing this…but I have know idea what is ment by it…

I skip a caddis after the initial drift is completed.  Landlocked salmon love it when the fly reaches the end of the drift and swings around to be straight down stream.  A retrieve back with sudden jerks of the rod will also encourage hits. However, this only works for a certain kind of caddis, usually in June in Maine.  The same trick applied in September does not produce the same results. Dave LaCourse

Response:

How do you skip a fly.  I have read and heard about doing this…but I have know idea what is ment by it…

There is no "right" way to do this. Experimentation is always worthwhile. I get 80%+ of my fish on a drag free drift, even on caddis. Fish feeding on Duns or emergers can be put down if there is any drag or motion to your fly, especially on heavily fished areas. I generally fish an area first using a drag free approach and then try some twitching or induced drag. Generally, just a twitch which moves the fly ever so slightly is what’s needed. However, in riffles and runs, more pronounced skips and hops followed by drag free drifts can be productive. A technique that sometimes brings up reluctant surface feeders in pocket water is a down stream technique. Wade upstream and to the side of one of the mini pools in a pocket stretch, until you are ten to fifteen feet away. In pocket water, fish are not easily spooked and a close approach is generally possible. Make a short cast to the side of the pocket you’re going to fish, raise your rod tip so that all the line and leader is off the water and hop a heavily dressed dry in and around the mini pool. With this technique, you can generally use a fly one or two sizes larger than what you would use on flatter water and a heavier tippets is also helpful. Strikes are violent. Fish will often will swipe at the fly but will hit it if your next cast is a drag free one. This is a good midsummer technique.  Especially in midsummer, these stretches of pocket water hold lots of fish including some good ones. Willi

Response:

How do you skip a fly.  I have read and heard about doing this…but I have know idea what is ment by it… Can someone help me out on this please

Response:

How do you skip a fly.  I have read and heard about doing this…but I have know idea what is ment by it… Can someone help me out on this please

 Mike, By twitching your rod real fast you send vibrations out your flyline/leader/tippet to the caddis. This causes the fly to "dance" on the water and it is a rare trout that can resist this flamenco. Here in the mountains of NC, there is a deceased flyfishing legend by the name of Mark Cathey. He "developed" this style back in the 20’s & 30’s on Hazel Creek and he always managed to fill his creel with the limit. Good luck with your dancing lessons, Walt —          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS/HOME.HTM

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Question:

any body know of some good fishing in north west colorado?

Response:

Try fishing at Yampacola res., nice rainbows and good fly country.

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– While in non-compliance with local decency ordinances the world over, any body know of some good fishing in north west colorado?

It’s more west-central, but the Black Canyon of the Gunnison River in Gunnison and Montrose counties is pretty nice. The fish are a little temperamental, though. Some days you can catch anything with an Adams and a mediocre presentation, and other days perfect presentation and a long and thin leader and perfect hatch matching will leave you skunked. The fishing is great. It’s the catching that’s sometimes a little iffy. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNu3zDpdiUzdLFqlpAQGlegf+L+2nnxmFnkfV8hwx9n2681hZcAvgSQn6 wDwh2ghZoQtGVvZHlYsONMMY0gOfNb52dgwd3uUi9ohZtyc0d9XIue3FHSa0vBa5 Sk4voCNo6BaPfMukXKUK9NiLaFjWZLF75rka/1pZqZnQqCm4ogPT5RJdJKiou+uv ONNOFeIuWLhayy44Ck9uziAlwtqJcWaoHdFdQQCY/Zwv5fBka+/MRhNchKTx+8T4 0Bh80zzGXFSYvBQPTww9eivH0PmecZhAwdhAT0EzvcDYry2cLynZgBPdpbLOr00x IATrJ1eBVpU9awukFCu4nFIcHXkrznq37t65RmbjE1WZkiU7p4+LIQ== =ifOk —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– Mike S. Medintz, http://www.grapevine.net/~medintz "I can try to get used to what she likes, but if I hear that ‘From This Moment’ song one more time I’m-a gonna go postal."                            "I love Topeka," by T.J.J. Williams

Response:

If I found myself in northwest Colorado I extend my travels a bit further to northeast Utah…The Green Rive & Flaming Gorge. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – any body know of some good fishing in north west colorado?

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If I found myself in northwest Colorado I extend my travels a bit further to northeast Utah…The Green Rive & Flaming Gorge.

Good advice if you want one of the crowded "hot spots."  NW Colorado is a big area.  If you’re going to the Grand Junction area, Grand Mesa is a beautiful area with lots of streams and natural lakes. Willi

Response:

Question:

I went fly fishing on Henery’s Fork in eastern Idaho.  And caught 14 blow flys, 6 bott flys and a mosquitoe.

Response:

I went fly fishing on Henery’s Fork in eastern Idaho.  And caught 14 blow flys, 6 bott flys and a mosquitoe.

 What were you useing ? HM

Response:

I went fly fishing on Henery’s Fork in eastern Idaho.  And caught 14 blow flys, 6 bott flys and a mosquitoe. What were you useing ? HM

Thes tim of yeer, u hafe to useing a fly pole, an fly lyne. Bhig Al

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-  Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.  Are you just using a regular pull scales or what?  And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records".  MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc.  This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies.  Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong.  I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures.  Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch.  Etc, etc.  But I find serious disagreement with your percentages.  Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function.  For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better".  I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like.  Just need a mailing address Ralph.   Mr. G.

Response:

Hi George-  Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing. . .  It means consistant breaking

or parting percentages every time.    I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers.   Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  

   That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.

Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.

Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…

For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you).   No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.

Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio

Response:

Hi Rick-   The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.   -Ralph

Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/                            /v/

– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Great .sig file Anglerboy !.  You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.

I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.

Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer

As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate.  If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   (much blather snipped)   Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test   that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would   bother with such a product streamside.   Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t   imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside   or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.   Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute   in the realms of flesh and sun   breaks down more pain than ages   of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"

Response:

Hi Jon-   We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip.    When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity.    The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests.    -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

Response:

Hi Rick-    The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

RALPH, you are not a dipshit.  Christ.  Loosen up.  What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth.  Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit.  What I say is based on sound facts.  If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect.  As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph.  I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL.  Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this.  You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break.  This comes with experience.  It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known.  A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc.  However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do.  Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing.  I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls.  The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT!  The knots aren’t burnt.  The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  This means what?  It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before.  A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception.  This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing.  Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters.  In fact, none of us do.  The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests.  I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece?  I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.  And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no.  I don’t know everything.  I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either.  I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone.  But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread.  I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT:  I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima.  I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it.  No Sir.  Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons.  When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. Everyone.

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,

While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    (much blather snipped)     Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test     that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would     bother with such a product streamside.    Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t    imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside    or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.    Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.  It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.

Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.

Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Response:

..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.

…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G.

Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%.  The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%.  The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%.  These results I’ve seen repeatedly.  These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

But of course.  This is the one I tie best.  Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator!  :-)   -Ralph

Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS:  ’Love your book, Ralph.  It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers.  Keep up the good work.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?

Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points.  I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.

Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know.  Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

Response:

Question:

Tom, I hate to drizzle on your parade, but I think a reasonable inference from the photos of the original 13 patterns in the Treatise (as interpreted by the famous angling historian Jack Heddon) is that at least 2 were caddis imitations, the Ruddy Fly and the Black Leaper. These are downwing flies whereas the "Dun" flies have upwings. If you agree, it means caddis imitations were among the earliest known patterns. Paul Marriner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Hi–   I read Wright’s 1972 book, _Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect_, : with much interest.  Certainly new to me! : But did Wright invent the caddis fly, as someone posted? : Weren’t some of the earliest known flies caddis imitations? A lot of the FF tradition was brought from England, and a lot of that was, to be polite, mayflycentric ;-^) Most of the early patterns were for mayflies; it was only later that folks began to seriously imitate caddises, stoneflies, terrestrials, etc. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (250) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (250) 368-9341

Response:

: Hi–   I read Wright’s 1972 book, _Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect_, : with much interest.  Certainly new to me! : But did Wright invent the caddis fly, as someone posted? : Weren’t some of the earliest known flies caddis imitations? A lot of the FF tradition was brought from England, and a lot of that was, to be polite, mayflycentric ;-^) Most of the early patterns were for mayflies; it was only later that folks began to seriously imitate caddises, stoneflies, terrestrials, etc. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (250) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (250) 368-9341

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While Leonard Wright did not "invent" the caddisfly, it’s said he was first the white man to meet one, long ago, in the days when even insects could speak.  Mr. Wright was ever a man of edges, and curious, so he immediately proceeded to question the bug. "I watched a trout eat one of your brethren," said he.  "And since it’s widely known by narrow minds that trout eat only mayflies, I must ask: Are you merely a mayfly, rather badly bent?" The mayfly, a lady, and an elegant princess of a family ignored by anglers, demurred.  "Oh no," she whispered, and shyly lifted a folded wing, revealing herself from thorax to rounded abdomen.   "So I see," said Mr. Wright, noting the absence of tails, "and you are certainly lovely." The poor caddis, overwhelmed with pleasure, oviposited right there and then, swooned, fell to the stream and twitched twice, which caused her to be eaten by a three-pound brook trout Wright had seen it all.  He thrilled to the meeting, grasped its meaning, sat to his vise.   The rest is history, of course.  An  evolution, in a way, for imbedded in those eggs that lady caddis lay, deep in their DNA, remained a memory of Wright’s attention, captured forever in a charming moment…   And that is why, fellow anglers, that even today, a descendent of Lady Caddifly may see you on a stream, mistake you for another brave Maverick– And flutter.   From a review of <Trout Maverick in <California Fly Fisher: ….History and instruction aside, there’s another reason to read Wright carefully, perhaps the most compelling: Wright is a <thinker.  Occasionally philosophical, sentimental about split cane and gut leaders, he is most keen when he puzzles and prods, experiments, dismisses traditional assumptions when "a bleak, black day" demands something different and new.  He’s not the kind of fisher who, facing failure, will do what’s prescribed until the sun goes down; Wright wonders, tinkers and tries.  If his successes leave him with a dim view of purists, Wright certainly doesn’t blink an apology… …at the heart of Wright’s writing is appreciation for independent examination, for the willingness to study closely, trust what you see, and proceed from there.  In the end  <Trout Maverick is as heretical as this:  "…when you start observing flies and fly behavior for yourself without relying on some other man’s word, you’ll find a whole new and productive world of fishing."

  It can be discouraging wading through the newsgroups sometimes but I suspect that this is the sort of post that keeps many of us coming back. I read the post yesterday asking if Mr Wright had invented the caddisfly and simply moved on with a mental roll of my eyes.  Mriffler was inspired to greatness and my evening is better for it. I will look to his posts in the future.  

Response:

To whom it may concern, The other day I made a critical reference to the book "Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect", Leonard M. Wright. My remark was about what I saw as conceipt by the author. That, I got the feeling that he thought he discovered the caddisfly. That he stores silk lines in the freezer made him an elitist prick, that sort of thing… Well…it’s funny how humility looks you up and hunts you down. I have since learned that Leonard M. Wright is a very elderly gentleman now, nearly if not ecclipsing 80. I have learned that he is a great man and a dear, dear friend to many, many of us.  I realize now that when he wrote the book initially, he really was breaking new ground.  He had every right to be proud of his discoveries.   I am ashamed of my careless and callous remarks and I apologize profusely.   What is really disturbing and humbling is that, despite my feelings and despite the fact that it is hard to read the book for those reasons, I have found myself reading it at least twice every winter for better then 10 years.  He really does have something important and useful for us to learn. Thank you, Leonard M. Wright.  I owe you a great deal. A debt that I have no idea how to repay… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

To whom it may concern, The other day I made a critical reference to the book "Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect", Leonard M. Wright. My remark was about what I saw as conceipt by the author. <etc Well…it’s funny how humility looks you up and hunts you down. I have since learned that Leonard M. Wright is a very elderly gentleman now, nearly if not ecclipsing 80. I have learned that he is a great man and a dear, dear friend to many, many of us.

<etc Thank you, Leonard M. Wright.  I owe you a great deal.

No sweat. A debt that I have no idea how to repay…

You could start by cutting out the ten to fifteen C&K-vs-C&R-everyone-else-stopped- listening-months-ago-never-ending-debate-from-Hell posts per day crap. Don’t you have a job or something? This goes for you too, Ralph. — Leonard M. Wright – Fly Fishing Legend, Inventor of the Caddis Fly

Response:

Excellent response Leo. I agree completely. Thanks,                Rick

Response:

You could start by cutting out the ten to fifteen C&K-vs-C&R-everyone-else-stopped-listening-months-ago-never-ending- debate-from-Hell posts per day crap. Don’t you have a job or something? This goes for you too, Ralph. Leonard M. Wright – Fly Fishing Legend, Inventor of the Caddis Fly

Do you remember that scene where Woody Allen pulls Marshall McLuhan out of a corner to put a windy so-and-so in his place?  From now on, whenever Moe starts to rant I will smile and think of Woody and Leonard. Keep your stick on the ice, Thos.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You could start by cutting out the ten to fifteen C&K-vs-C&R-everyone-else-stopped-listening-months-ago-never-ending- debate-from-Hell posts per day crap. Don’t you have a job or something? This goes for you too, Ralph. Leonard M. Wright – Fly Fishing Legend, Inventor of the Caddis Fly Do you remember that scene where Woody Allen pulls Marshall McLuhan out of a corner to put a windy so-and-so in his place?  From now on, whenever Moe starts to rant I will smile and think of Woody and Leonard. Keep your stick on the ice, Thos.

The best part is where Thos. says to keep your stick ….. Everyone is wright. There is tooo much egotistical BS on Roff. But hey, that’s the way its been the two years I’ve been watching -Doug

Response:

Mr. Wright,         Thank you, a million times, thank you. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You could start by cutting out the ten to fifteen C&K-vs-C&R-everyone-else-stopped- listening-months-ago-never-ending-debate-from-Hell posts per day crap.

Response:

Hi–   I read Wright’s 1972 book, _Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect_, with much interest.  Certainly new to me! But did Wright invent the caddis fly, as someone posted? Weren’t some of the earliest known flies caddis imitations? vince norris

Response:

 While Leonard Wright did not "invent" the caddisfly, it’s said he was first the white man to meet one, long ago, in the days when even insects could speak.  Mr. Wright was ever a man of edges, and curious, so he immediately proceeded to question the bug.  "I watched a trout eat one of your brethren," said he.  "And since it’s widely known by narrow minds that trout eat only mayflies, I must ask: Are you merely a mayfly, rather badly bent?"  The mayfly, a lady, and an elegant princess of a family ignored by anglers, demurred.  "Oh no," she whispered, and shyly lifted a folded wing, revealing herself from thorax to rounded abdomen.    "So I see," said Mr. Wright, noting the absence of tails, "and you are certainly lovely."  The poor caddis, overwhelmed with pleasure, oviposited right there and then, swooned, fell to the stream and twitched twice, which caused her to be eaten by a three-pound brook trout  Wright had seen it all.  He thrilled to the meeting, grasped its meaning, sat to his vise.    The rest is history, of course.  An  evolution, in a way, for imbedded in those eggs that lady caddis lay, deep in their DNA, remained a memory of Wright’s attention, captured forever in a charming moment…    And that is why, fellow anglers, that even today, a descendent of Lady Caddifly may see you on a stream, mistake you for another brave Maverick–  And flutter.    From a review of <Trout Maverick in <California Fly Fisher:  ….History and instruction aside, there’s another reason to read Wright carefully, perhaps the most compelling:  Wright is a <thinker.  Occasionally philosophical, sentimental about split cane and gut leaders, he is most keen when he puzzles and prods, experiments, dismisses traditional assumptions when "a bleak, black day" demands something different and new.  He’s not the kind of fisher who, facing failure, will do what’s prescribed until the sun goes down; Wright wonders, tinkers and tries.  If his successes leave him with a dim view of purists, Wright certainly doesn’t blink an apology…  …at the heart of Wright’s writing is appreciation for independent examination, for the willingness to study closely, trust what you see, and proceed from there.  In the end  <Trout Maverick is as heretical as this:  "…when you start observing flies and fly behavior for yourself without relying on some other man’s word, you’ll find a whole new and productive world of fishing."

Response:

Question:

Where, *exactly*, should I add split-shot on a WF-5-F line, or leader.

Response:

I like to put it right next to the fly so that it looks like a head. I, of course, have no idea if that is correct or not.

Response:

Where, *exactly*, should I add split-shot on a WF-5-F line, or leader.

The closer to the fly usually causes less tangling problems. Another method I use is to add a short section of lead core line between my leader butt section and the tipppet section. Some people find that easier to cast. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

: I like to put it right next to the fly so that it looks like a head. I, of : course, have no idea if that is correct or not. If it catches fish, it _is_ correct! ;-   Anywhere from about 18 inches up on the tippet to down close to the fly will do the trick. Another suggestion would be to use a section of lead core line. What you do is form a loop in each end and overwrap it with thread. Use a loop to loop connection to attach it to the flyline or the tippet end of the leader. There are premade ones out there also. The advantage to this is that it removes that "clunkiness" from the casting that is associated with the use split shot. Jon Porter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where, *exactly*, should I add split-shot on a WF-5-F line, or leader. The closer to the fly usually causes less tangling problems. Another method I use is to add a short section of lead core line between my leader butt section and the tipppet section. Some people find that easier to cast. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Too close to the fly can ruin the swimming action.  Leave at least a couple of feet for most flies. — Richard Nelson Spokane, Wa. "Its not that life is so short, its that death is sooo long."  

Question:

I plan on flying into Bozeman, Montana on June 28th for 5 days but I may not have the capacity to travel longer distances to more well known fishing spots such as The Big Horn, etc. Can anyone assist me in finding a good couple of spots close to the Bozeman Area for some good flyfishing for trout?    Help!!!  

Is the Big Horn more reknown for flyfishing than the Madison, Gallatin, Yellowstone? All these are very close to Bozeman.  There are also the spring creeks over at Livingston.  For specifics, I encourage you to call the Montana Troutfitters Orvis Shop- (406) 587-4707.  The guys in there are very nice, very helpful, and can give you specifics on smaller areas, hatches, guides if you want them, shuttles, etc.  Good luck!

Response:

You’ll only be an hour and 45 minutes from Yellowstone. Call Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone for suggestions that may be a little closer to Bozeman.

Response:

I plan on flying into Bozeman, Montana on June 28th for 5 days but I may not have the capacity to travel longer distances to more well known fishing spots such as The Big Horn, etc. Can anyone assist me in finding a good couple of spots close to the Bozeman Area for some good flyfishing for trout?    Help!!!  

Response:

writes: I plan on flying into Bozeman, Montana on June 28th for 5 days but I may not have the capacity to travel longer distances to more well known fishing spots such as The Big Horn, etc. Can anyone assist me in finding a good couple of spots close to the Bozeman Area for some good flyfishing for trout?    Help!!!  

Try the Gallatin River.

Response:

Question:

My father and I were looking for any suggestions on how to successfully fish the Ausable river in New york State ,as we are from Ottawa and farirly new to fishing this honey of a river.

Response:

My father and I were looking for any suggestions on how to successfully fish the Ausable river in New york State ,as we are from Ottawa and farirly new to fishing this honey of a river.

Check with Jones Outfitters (?) in Lake Placid.   Also, for some local color, and maybe some good advice, check with Francis Betters, who runs a shop about halfway between Lake Placid and Wilmington.  I can never remember the name of the place, but it’s something like the Adirondack Sports Shop.  Someone here please correct me. In Ottawa, ask for Milt at Fishin’ Buddies.  He arranges trips to Lake Placid to fish the Ausable, and may be able to give you some good information. Tim

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My father and I were looking for any suggestions on how to successfully fish the Ausable river in New york State ,as we are from Ottawa and farirly new to fishing this honey of a river.

There is a whole chapter on the Ausable (West Branch mostly) in the book "Good Fishing in the Adirondacks".  Francis Betters wrote the chapter, but I’m not sure who the editor is.  Let me know if you want the detailed info for ordering the book. The Ausable is filled with gorgeous pocket water, especially from the "trophy area" on rt 86 and on downstream from there.  Attractor dries and basic nymphs fished in the pockets work quite well.  When fishing dries in this water, a Wulff type of fly floats well and is very visible.  Francis Betters "invented" the Ausable Wulff and the Haystack patterns especially for this river.  Good luck fishing one of my favorite places…leave some fish for me! Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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Better take plenty of DEET in May-June. The black flies are killers.

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