Question:

This isn’t much of a trip report.  No fancy destination, no flowery prose, just a working man’s day off fishing for bluegills. I have a few ’secret’ spots for coldwater fishing in Massachusetts, but there’s nothing secret on weekends.  I usually wait until Tuesday or Wednesday to go stream fishing, to give the fish a chance to recover from the weekend beating they take, and to avoid the crowds.  And if it’s raining, so much the better.  It’s like getting a tennis court back in the seventies during the tennis craze.  The only time you could get court time was when it was raining. So, I pass on the crowded streams, and go bluegill fishing.  That’s actually a misnomer: we have lots of panfish species, and it’s not possible to target one particular species, and there’s a lot of interbreeding, so it’s often hard to know what you’ve caught.  But the bluegills are the predominant species in most of the ponds I fish and so get the mention. Jimmy and I ‘found’ this pond about 5 years ago.  Note the Massachusetts use of the word found.  You don’t find anything around here that hasn’t been found by a couple hundred thousand people before you.  But this pond just happens to be about half way between our homes, and we decided at the last minute one evening several years ago, that all of our usual choices were too far for at least one of us, and we opted to meet in the middle to check out Ninemile.  Now we’re regulars. I have a long term fascination with developing the ultimate fly to use on Ninemile.  The pond has a small number of mayflies and caddis, but the predominant species are midges and the dragon and damselflies that feed on them.  We’ve done really well over the years using damselfly nymph imitations and the Ausable Wullf which I think looks like an emerging damselfly.  I did really well one night a few years ago with a floating damsel tied by Charlie Wilson for the 2000 Great Roff Flyswap http://gula.org/roffswaps/detail.php?page=FS2000&id=23 Since then I’ve been experimenting a lot with foam and this year I’ve been using variants of Gartside’s Gurgler.  Up until last Friday I had been experimenting with colors and tails and bodies trying to come up with something easy to tie, visible, durable (able to stand up to a couple hundred fish…), and successful.  Yesterday I made a breakthrough, and moved away from damsel imitations:  I made the Gurgle Frog.  If you’re in the DDFS 2002 swap, you’ll be getting one in the mail in a couple of weeks. The fly is extremely simple: a pair of grizzly hackles for a tail (tied splayed out to the sides – they pulse like legs when you pop the fly), chartreuse Estaz for the body, and green foam for the back and gurgler head. You can see the fly in use at http://gula.org/ninemile.html I caught 4 different species of fish last night, including a big white perch that jumped out of the lily pads as it grabbed my fly.  I got pictures of a couple of really beautiful fish: a bluegill and a pumpkinseed.  If you were ever confused by panfish identification, the pics should show the difference (at least in the males). http://gula.org/images/bluegill.jpg http://gula.org/images/pumpkin.jpg –Stan

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flowery prose, just a working man’s day off fishing for bluegills.

This is what we call brim fishing where I live in Texas. I am looking forward to receiving your fly and will copy it and let you know how it works around here. I hope you will give mine a try as well. I find that tails made of the fur cut off a zonker strip are more durable than any of the other tails that I have tried. Last week I had to order another thousand of the mustad 3366 size 8 hooks that I use for tying these foam bugs. It is kind of difficult to find a better hook…especialy at less than 26 bucks a thousand! I give a lot of these things away. Big Dale

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is what we call brim fishing where I live in Texas. I am looking forward to receiving your fly and will copy it and let you know how it works around here. I hope you will give mine a try as well. I find that tails made of the fur cut off a zonker strip are more durable than any of the other tails that I have tried. Last week I had to order another thousand of the mustad 3366 size 8 hooks that I use for tying these foam bugs. It is kind of difficult to find a better hook…especialy at less than 26 bucks a thousand! I give a lot of these things away. Big Dale

The generic name for all panfish here in the Connecticut Valley is ‘kivvers’.  ’Brim’ is the edge of your coffee mug<g. I can’t imagine buying a thousand hooks of one model.  Last summer I used a single Orange Woof (orange foam Ausable Wullf descendent) for almost two months… –Stan (taking ‘frugal yankee’ to the next level)

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Stan wrote :snipI can’t imagine buying a thousand hooks of one model.  Last summer I used a single Orange Woof (orange foam Ausable Wullf descendent) for almost two months…

I find that these flies are extremely durable and is I tie my knots well( a big if) and I don’t stick them in a tree, they will catch hundreds of fish, but I give most of them away and I also use that hook for tying skinny water clousers and Richard Hart’s Ghost Minnows as well. I also use all three patterns in salt water with those hooks and simply throw them away at the end of the day. Both the skinny water clousers and the ghost minnows are tied so sparsely that they don’t last long. I only tie simple guide type flies that catch lots of fish. Still most of the flies that I tie are given away to kids who watch me tie. It is a hell of a lot of fun. Big Dale Big Dale

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This isn’t much of a trip report.  No fancy destination, no flowery prose, just a working man’s day off fishing for bluegills.

…and that’s as well written a beginning to a tall tale as ol sam clemens could ever hope to deliver as an introduction to his fine and special journeys. thanks for letting me tag along.  it’s interesting to see the different coloring of panfish, and the bream, bluegills and crappie. those i’ve managed to surprise down here in nc have been as much fun to catch and admire as the bass and trout… plus, i usually can enjoy refreshments *during* the adventure. jeff

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This isn’t much of a trip report.  No fancy destination, no flowery prose, just a working man’s day off fishing for bluegills. I

        maudlin.         your friend in the old north state wayno

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[flowery prose snipped] You can see the fly in use at http://gula.org/ninemile.html

Well, barely. Any chance you could take a snap of one and post it up? tia /daytripper (Chillin’ on the Merrimack)

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You can see the fly in use at http://gula.org/ninemile.html Well, barely. Any chance you could take a snap of one and post it up?

Not immediately – I only tied two and I hung mine in a tree and Jim lost his in the weeds.  I’ll tie up some fresh ones later today (I committed to tying 17 for the swap) and I’ll try to take a picture.  Unfortunately, the camera I use is a cheap autofocus (Canon A40 – pretty nice small 2Mpixel) and it has trouble focusing on small items in macro mode (but I’m getting better at it).  I’m using Dave Price’s suggestion of using a gallon milk jug as a diffuser and putting a few hundred watts of light around it.  All I have to figure out is how to give the autofocus a bigger target.  One of my sample fly photos is at: http://gula.org/roffswaps/detail.php?page=DD2001&id=9 –Stan

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Unfortunately, the camera I use is a cheap autofocus (Canon A40 – pretty nice small 2Mpixel) and it has trouble focusing on small items in macro mode

How is the A40 on ‘grinning doofus’ shots? I’m thinking about getting one to take to the Henry’s Fork (in addition to my CoolPix 880) primarily because Canon makes a waterproof case for the A40 so I could carry it safely on stream. Thanks. — Charlie…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can see the fly in use at http://gula.org/ninemile.html Well, barely. Any chance you could take a snap of one and post it up? Not immediately – I only tied two and I hung mine in a tree and Jim lost his in the weeds.  I’ll tie up some fresh ones later today (I committed to tying 17 for the swap) and I’ll try to take a picture.  Unfortunately, the camera I use is a cheap autofocus (Canon A40 – pretty nice small 2Mpixel) and it has trouble focusing on small items in macro mode (but I’m getting better at it).  I’m using Dave Price’s suggestion of using a gallon milk jug as a diffuser and putting a few hundred watts of light around it.  All I have to figure out is how to give the autofocus a bigger target.  One of my sample fly photos is at: http://gula.org/roffswaps/detail.php?page=DD2001&id=9 –Stan

Assuming you respect the focusing range of the camera, the rest is all a matter of contrast. But you can create contrast where there is little. Use a ruler and a black magic marker to draw a bunch of bold, parallel lines across a section of smooth white card stock. Space the lines by about a 1/4". With the fly in the vise and your camera on the tripod, hold the card on the vertical plane and parallel to the hook shank, anywhere in the camera frame. Half-press the shutter release and hold it there while you remove the card, then fully press the shutter release. Even better, use your camera’s remote release (if it has one)  to take the shot, to avoid the shakes. Note that some cameras use vertical features in the fov to autofocus, while others may use horizontal features. That’s an easy experiment to conduct (or you may rtfm, of course cheers /daytripper (more than one way to teach them electronics…)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Use a ruler and a black magic marker to draw a bunch of bold, parallel lines across a section of smooth white card stock. Space the lines by about a 1/4". With the fly in the vise and your camera on the tripod, hold the card on the vertical plane and parallel to the hook shank, anywhere in the camera frame. Half-press the shutter release and hold it there while you remove the card, then fully press the shutter release. Even better, use your camera’s remote release (if it has one)  to take the shot, to avoid the shakes. Note that some cameras use vertical features in the fov to autofocus, while others may use horizontal features. That’s an easy experiment to conduct (or you may rtfm, of course

Good suggestion.  I was trying some similar things.  The A40 has an autofocus lock button so you can set the focus (maybe) and move things around a little.  Also has two auto timers for avoiding the shakes.  A very nice little camera.  Also has manual overrides for everything except the focus… Thanks. –Stan

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Unfortunately, the camera I use is a cheap autofocus (Canon A40 – pretty nice small 2Mpixel) and it has trouble focusing on small items in macro mode How is the A40 on ‘grinning doofus’ shots? I’m thinking about getting one to take to the Henry’s Fork (in addition to my CoolPix 880) primarily because Canon makes a waterproof case for the A40 so I could carry it safely on stream. Thanks. — Charlie…

I really like the A40.  About the only negative thing I’ve read about it (and have experienced) is problems focusing on small items in macro mode (like flies…).  The fully auto mode makes pretty good picks for quick and dirty snapshots.  And it lets you manually set lots of things when you have the time.  Very easy controls. The waterproof case looks pretty bulky – and pricy. I also liked the Canon Elph S330.  It’s pretty similar for features, is smaller (truly pocket size), just slightly more money and also has a waterproof case option.  The only thing that pushed me to get the A40 was use of standard AA batteries so I can use off-the-shelf NiMH batteries. –Stan

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The waterproof case looks pretty bulky – and pricy. I also liked the Canon Elph S330.  It’s pretty similar for features, is smaller (truly pocket size), just slightly more money and also has a waterproof case option.  

Yeah, the case is a little bulky and pricey, but I hate to be in my kayak or on the water without a camera – and I seem to have misplaced my old Nikon Action Touch 35mm. I was able to handle the A40 case when I was in Tokyo last year and it’s not as bad as it looks in pictures, but definitely not ‘pocket sized’. — Charlie…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is what we call brim fishing where I live in Texas. I am looking forward to receiving your fly and will copy it and let you know how it works around here. I hope you will give mine a try as well. I find that tails made of the fur cut off a zonker strip are more durable than any of the other tails that I have tried. Last week I had to order another thousand of the mustad 3366 size 8 hooks that I use for tying these foam bugs. It is kind of difficult to find a better hook…especialy at less than 26 bucks a thousand! I give a lot of these things away. Big Dale The generic name for all panfish here in the Connecticut Valley is ‘kivvers’.  ’Brim’ is the edge of your coffee mug<g. I can’t imagine buying a thousand hooks of one model.  Last summer I used a single Orange Woof (orange foam Ausable Wullf descendent) for almost two months… –Stan (taking ‘frugal yankee’ to the next level)

Here in PA, they’re all Bluegills and Crappie – pronounced ‘Crap’ (like the stuff in your waders on the worst day of your fishing life), unless you don’t like fishing for, catching & possibly eating ‘Crap’ in which case it’s pronounced ‘Crawppie’ or ‘Croppie’. Down in NC, where I first heard the term ‘brim’ – actually, I believe that it’s spelled BREAM (pronounced ‘brim’) – it seems to apply to all panfish except Crappie (regardless of pronunciation). I’ll also second the "can’t imagine buying a thousand hooks of one model" sentiment.  DCWDFF, you must be one serious fly tyin’ maniac. Tom G never had that stuff in MY waders – yet

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one model" sentiment.  DCWDFF, you must be one serious fly tyin’ maniac.

Well, I do resemble that remark, but I must admit that it took me about three years to use the first thousand. All of those flies that I tied with them are very simple flies to tie, and all of the materials used in these patterns are very inexpensive. Big Dale

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<snipped post which was repeated 6 times Well if you tie flies like you post, you should go thru 1000 hooks a year easily.

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MY waders – yet obviously, you’ve not *yet* experienced a louie laplac breakfast…  it’s only a matter of time, so i’d recommend practicing speedy stream exits and wader drops… might wanna carry a roll of tp as well… the process of wetting and using your t-shirt puts some folks off… jeff

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MY waders – yet obviously, you’ve not *yet* experienced a louie laplac breakfast…  it’s only a matter of time, so i’d recommend practicing speedy stream exits and wader drops… might wanna carry a roll of tp as well… the process of wetting and using your t-shirt puts some folks off…

Some of us use socks……evidently this is not as off-putting.        :) Wolfgang who rests content in leaving some things behind.

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Some of us use socks……evidently this is not as off-putting.        :)

…i knew that damn thing i shook outta those socks was a corn kernel… Wolfgang who rests content in leaving some things behind.

having changed diapers of infants with serious "leaving behind" problems, squishy socks ain’t a problem… <g jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

I’m planning a familiy trip down to Islamorada this summer. Since I’m on a budget I can unfortunately only afford to hire a guide for one day. How good are the opportunities for doing some solo wade-flyfishing in the Islamorada area. Too vast and crowded? Tips are appreciated, Tor Larsen

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Spme State Parks w/ood access South of there

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Rook2, I was there last year and had a fine time fishing from the road side. If you head on out towards Key West not very far from Islamorada there’s a number road side areas you can fish where the boat cuts come close to shore. I pulled two fine bone fish out this way. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spme State Parks w/ood access South of there

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – some 2nd Amendment Gun Oil for your guns?  I’ll be glad to send you a bottle. Best stuff for any weapon you have, especially for anything auto or semi automatic.  Best in the world but the Pentagon doesn’t know it yet.  (as usual). Be glad to send you ‘a sample’.  On me.  It will save you four bucks.  (Expensive stuff to make).  You’re worth a regiment here on ROFF pard. got to keep your fire power up. Mr. G. —

Question:

I’m looking for a quiet weekend spot to camp that preferably isn’t in a campground, is relatively easily accessible by novice hikers and within a few hours drive from Boston or Providence (anywhere in RI, CT, western MA, southern NH, VT, or ME).  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Please mail

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I’m looking for a quiet weekend spot to camp that preferably isn’t in a campground, is relatively easily accessible by novice hikers and within a few hours drive from Boston or Providence

Jay, On my homepage click on "resources" and you will find a link to all of Vermont’s state parks. Good luck. James Ehlers Underhill, Vermont Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Vermont Fly Fishing, Hunting, River and Woodland Outings http://pobox.com/~uncle

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Question:

I think it’s about time that somewhere some fisheries managers bite the big one and introduce regulations that restrict all anglers in trout fisheries (or bass etc) to a minimum number of fish killed per year ( as Jon suggests) and a minimum number of fish landed per day.

I’m all for this.  I was on a streak last spring– caught one fish on every outing for three weeks.  But, usually I don’t catch anything. It’d be great to have a regulation that guarantees me a minimum number of fish landed per day! — Tight Threads,         Charley Renn         Corvallis, OR

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Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing. I eat reds and specks that I catch on an Abu Garcia 6500 as much as I do a 16 inch trout caught on a 18 Adams. It is a simple thing and would be common if it wern’t for the Bunny Huggers. Am I the only one that eats fish here? If you get a fish that is as good as a trout as table fair, you should make it table fair. i know I’ll get hell from everyone about this but I accept that. BryceC

– Brice, Wake up! Where is the next fish you cook comming from? This is not a bunny hug, a tree hug, a rock hug or any other "Environmental issue." Say you own a pond with 100 fish in it, if you want to fish the pond every day, you will soon realize that catch and release is the only way you can sustain your sport. Or, of course, you could open a hatchery . . . . / o          /                                    |   __ /        /         Douglas Easton             |                                /                                      |                                                     *

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Well I will not judge you for your way of life, but don’t come up to Montana and try to catch and cook in any of the prime trout areas, because you will be arrested if I see it…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing. I eat reds and specks that I catch on an Abu Garcia 6500 as much as I do a 16 inch trout caught on a 18 Adams. It is a simple thing and would be common if it wern’t for the Bunny Huggers. Am I the only one that eats fish here? If you get a fish that is as good as a trout as table fair, you should make it table fair. i know I’ll get hell from everyone about this but I accept that. BryceC Ain’t nothing wrong with keeping.  Depends on why you fish.  Frankly, I like the total experience and an satisfied with the challenge, the "art" of flyfishing, the environment, etc.  I don’t need to harvest the fish to be satisfied and therefore I fish entirely catch and release. however, I certainly do not blame anyone for harvesting what can be used appropriately.

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fish, then it is theoretically possible for a larger % of the population to be decimated by C&R methods than by C&K

It’s a nice theory but empirical evidence just doesn’t bear it out. In fact empirical evidence disproves it.  Go fish both the C&R and C&K section of the San Juan River for instance.  The two areas are adjacent. In a day of fishing the former you’ll typically catch about 30 fat healthy fish running 12-24 inches; in the latter you’ll catch a handful of scrawny 10-inch stockers.  Which is decimated? Even what I’ve said above is overly simplistic.

No actually, it’s too complicated.  The facts are clear, simple, and undeniable.   — -Wayne Trzyna

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: Hopefully, we’re not : carrying fin tags or punch cards anytime soon. Why? Just curious… JonCook.

Since what was proposed was essentially an honor system, what’s the point of punch cards? I either follow the rules or I don’t. The paperwork is a potential bureaucratic nightmare. It just makes fishing more expensive for everyone. For the record, I have killed one fish on the Platte in 16 years of fishing it. The fin tags would be of no use to me unless someone could convince me that killing fish there improved the fishery. (Colorado has a great bag limit foroverpopulated pond brookies under 8" that more than satisfies my appetite for fresh trout and HELPS the population.) However the 40 caught per season is interesting. As tough as the Platte can be some days, therehave been numerous days where the seasonal limit would have been filled. I only get to fish there 1 to 10 or 12 days a year while I’m visiting family in the Springs. What about the guys who fish there much more than that? How would they feel? Or is the real issue here limiting the number of fishing days to improve the fisherman’s aesthetic experience as opposed to protecting a fishery? Could it be this is just a stalking horse for another round of yuppie bashing?  Not saying I know the answer, but it’s an interesting question. I fish the Platte during the week at off times of the year, often with snow on the ground, because I want to see fewer people. I guess with punch cards and fin tags I could go whenever I wanted and see fewer people, but I’ve come to love the Canyon more the times that I go than any other. Probably wouldn’t change a thing. BP

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wayne trzyna  wrote in article I think it’s about time that somewhere some fisheries managers bite the big one and introduce regulations that restrict all anglers in trout fisheries (or bass etc) to a minimum number of fish killed per year ( as Jon suggests) and a minimum number of fish landed per day. Ideally it would require a punch card or tag system and the max catch per day (regardless if they are all released) would have to operate fairly much on an honour system – but I think most fishers would do so. This is unnecessary.  If a person is catching dozens of fish that fact implies there are plenty of fish to catch.  It seems silly to regulate "number of fish landed" in this scenario.

This may be a naive assumption.  (Before you react.  Note that I said ‘may’.)  I have no facts on this issue (and certainly would appreciate it if anyone could contribute some), but it stands to reason that C&R could have it’s own pitfalls.  If it is true that a certain percentage of returned fish die as a result of having been caught and handled, and it is true that there are many fishermen who are successful at catching many fish, then it is theoretically possible for a larger % of the population to be decimated by C&R methods than by C&K (where fishers keep all they catch, must stop fishing when the limit is reached,  and compliance to these regs is high….i.e. an ‘ideal’ C&K fishery). Even what I’ve said above is overly simplistic.  We all know that there are a variety of factors that uniquely effect each fishery, and to some degree, I think the jury is still out as to what works best where.  There is no magic bullet that is going to cure the underlying problem…overpopulation of fishers.  (I sure aint gonna stop fishing, are you?).  Unfortunately, we have found all too often that well meant resource management techniques, even though they look good on paper, fail to measure up to our expectations.  I suspect that this may be true of C&R, at least on some fisheries, but again I have no specific facts. Does anyone know of any scholarly investigations of the long term impacts of C&R fishing?

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A friend of mine (bait fisher) had an excellent idea.  On the South Platte around Deckers there is a 2 fish over 16" slot limit.   as a result you won’t find a lot of fish over 16".  This is a wrong approach. switch to 2, or4 fish under 12", and let the big ones go. How’s that? </c

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Sounds nice but what happens when all the bigs ones die of old age and here ain’t any little ones around to grow big because they’ve all been C & C’s (or whatever the latest inane acroynm or synthetic politically correct terminology is) Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A friend of mine (bait fisher) had an excellent idea.  On the South Platte around Deckers there is a 2 fish over 16" slot limit.   as a result you won’t find a lot of fish over 16".  This is a wrong approach. switch to 2, or4 fish under 12", and let the big ones go. How’s that? </c

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Chaz, given the pressure on the SP, Ralph’s probably right. So, how about: Define some section of the SP, say Cheesman to Oxyoke (that right?), then, each angler can keep 4 fish per year, any size, and (this is the key) can only catch a total of 40 fish per year. With that, the SP would be a truely great fishery, and those 2-10 days you fished it per year would be much more memorable than the 50 you do now (you being anyone who fishes it that much now, not neccessarily Chaz). JonCook.

: : Sounds nice but what happens when all the bigs ones die of : old age and here ain’t any little ones around to grow big : because they’ve all been C & C’s (or whatever the latest inane : acroynm or synthetic politically correct terminology is) : Ralph H : A friend of mine (bait fisher) had an excellent idea.  On the South : Platte around Deckers there is a 2 fish over 16" slot limit.   as a : result you won’t find a lot of fish over 16".  This is a wrong approach. : switch to 2, or4 fish under 12", and let the big ones go. : : How’s that? : : </c

Response:

Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing. I eat reds and specks that I catch on an Abu Garcia 6500 as much as I do a 16 inch trout caught on a 18 Adams. It is a simple thing and would be common if it wern’t for the Bunny Huggers. Am I the only one that eats fish here? If you get a fish that is as good as a trout as table fair, you should make it table fair. i know I’ll get hell from everyone about this but I accept that. BryceC

Ain’t nothing wrong with keeping.  Depends on why you fish.  Frankly, I like the total experience and an satisfied with the challenge, the "art" of flyfishing, the environment, etc.  I don’t need to harvest the fish to be satisfied and therefore I fish entirely catch and release. however, I certainly do not blame anyone for harvesting what can be used appropriately.

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Sounds nice but what happens when all the bigs ones die of old age and here ain’t any little ones around to grow big because they’ve all been C & C’s (or whatever the latest inane acroynm or synthetic politically correct terminology is)

Yes, that is the fly in the ointment.  You could expect more stocks because larger fish produce more eggs, etc. – but remember only a few small ones would be kept. But you’re right.  The number of small fish would decline, especially on the SP – I doubt there is a great deal of natural reproduction and they won’t stock it, so……. </c – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H

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Chaz, given the pressure on the SP, Ralph’s probably right. So, how about: Define some section of the SP, say Cheesman to Oxyoke (that right?), then, each angler can keep 4 fish per year, any size, and (this is the key) can only catch a total of 40 fish per year.

For anglers who keep some/most/all of thier legal catch, a 40 fish/year limit would be totally unenforceable.  Unless, of course, you gave them "tear-away tags"  as part of their liscense and made them tag the fins of thier fish.   Hey, what a great way to limit exclusive Catch and Kill fishing.  Make killing a bunch of fish more trouble than it’s worth! Jason B

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Chaz, given the pressure on the SP, Ralph’s probably right. So, how about: Define some section of the SP, say Cheesman to Oxyoke (that right?), then, each angler can keep 4 fish per year, any size, and (this is the key) can only catch a total of 40 fish per year. With that, the SP would be a truely great fishery, and those 2-10 days you fished it per year would be much more memorable than the 50 you do now (you being anyone who fishes it that much now, not neccessarily Chaz). JonCook.

I think it’s about time that somewhere some fisheries managers bite the big one and introduce regulations that restrict all anglers in trout fisheries (or bass etc) to a minimum number of fish killed per year ( as Jon suggests) and a minimum number of fish landed per day. Ideally it would require a punch card or tag system and the max catch per day (regardless if they are all released) would have to operate fairly much on an honour system – but I think most fishers would do so. I don’t know much about the South Platte other than I recognize the name but it seems to me if you have a reg that allows killing only fish of 16" or over and fish that size are rare then something isn’t working (providing the river is able to grow good numbers of fish to that size). you’ve got to wonder if a limit of 4 smaller fish will help either if the kill so seriously affects the larger fish. I think that most of us want our waters managed so there is a more or less normal distribution of all age classes. Wiping out one class to protect the other doesn’t make sense and will likely lead to an imbalance in the long run! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Sounds nice but what happens when all the bigs ones die of : old age and here ain’t any little ones around to grow big : A friend of mine (bait fisher) had an excellent idea.  On the South : Platte around Deckers there is a 2 fish over 16" slot limit.   as a : result you won’t find a lot of fish over 16".  This is a wrong approach. : switch to 2, or4 fish under 12", and let the big ones go. : : How’s that? : : </c

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Sounds nice but what happens when all the bigs ones die of old age and here ain’t any little ones around to grow big because they’ve all been C & C’s (or whatever the latest inane acroynm or synthetic politically correct terminology is) Ralph H

I let the hatcheries replenish the stock. I also don’t get very many chances to trout fish so I make the best of the ones that I catch. BryceC

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        <<Killing a fish and eating it is not a dishonorable thing to do. The angler should use a little discretion, though. Where they are scarce, it’s foolish to kill them. On the other hand, if the trout are plentiful I may keep one or two per trip.         You are right, Bryce, when you admit that you are likely to catch some flak over this issue. But, where legal, it is your RIGHT to do that if you wish. People can holler all they want, but it’s their problem not yours. Just use good judgment, and don’t overcook those beauties. Enjoy! (Try poaching them in wine and garlic.) I fish the Tellico so there are plenty of fish around there. The Tellico Hatchery Stocks weekly. I also fish the West Prong Pigeon, the Little and the Elk. All have lots of fish. If I were fishing Abrahms creek or Rabbit Creek that would be a different story. I’m glad someone agrees with me. BryceC

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Jason, the reason game laws work is because most people observe them voluntarily. There is simply not enough DFG (or DNR, depending on where you’re from) money to enforce these laws.   Laws that are "more trouble than they are worth"  are the ones least likely to be honored by the requisite number of fishermen.                                                            -dnc- Jason Beary wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip]  Unless, of course, you gave them "tear-away tags"  as part of their liscense and made them tag the fins of thier fish.   Hey, what a great way to limit exclusive Catch and Kill fishing.  Make killing a bunch of fish more trouble than it’s worth! Jason B

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So if I get skunked, your going to fine me?  (No need to reply.  I know what you meant.  Just couldn’t resist) —                                                            -dnc- I think it’s about time that somewhere some fisheries managers bite the big one and introduce regulations that restrict all anglers in trout fisheries (or bass etc) to a …[snip]…. a minimum number of fish

landed per day.

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I think it’s about time that somewhere some fisheries managers bite the big one and introduce regulations that restrict all anglers in trout fisheries (or bass etc) to a minimum number of fish killed per year ( as Jon suggests) and a minimum number of fish landed per day. Ideally it would require a punch card or tag system and the max catch per day (regardless if they are all released) would have to operate fairly much on an honour system – but I think most fishers would do so.

This is unnecessary.  If a person is catching dozens of fish that fact implies there are plenty of fish to catch.  It seems silly to regulate "number of fish landed" in this scenario. I don’t know much about the South Platte other than I recognize the name but it seems to me if you have a reg that allows killing only fish of 16" or over and fish that size are rare then something isn’t working (providing the river is able to grow good numbers of fish to that size).

There are a bunch of dubious assumptions underlying this thread.  The fact that one is not catching bigger fish does not mean that there are no big fish to be caught.  We all understand this more than we’d care to admit. But I agree that slot limits that allow killing only big fish are counterproductive. — -Wayne Trzyna

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-Wayne Trzyna

<snip I don’t know much about the South Platte other than I recognize the name but it seems to me if you have a reg that allows killing only fish of 16" or over and fish that size are rare then something isn’t working (providing the river is able to grow good numbers of fish to that size). There are a bunch of dubious assumptions underlying this thread.  The fact that one is not catching bigger fish does not mean that there are no big fish to be caught.  We all understand this more than we’d care to admit.

If the 16" fish is rare then you will fish somewhere else right? If the 16" fish is rare, you will change the regs to protect them right? Seems there are an awful lot of people on this group going out of their way to poor mouth the Platte. I suspect Wayne knows that Cheeseman Canyon(Pure C&R) has plenty of 16"+ fish and has for years. Maybe its not like the eighties when there were many days when almost all the fish I caught were above 16", but… I must admit however that I have never caught as many larger fish below the canyon (kill one over 16" stretch), even in the better days. Numbers of total fish caught were somewhat similar though. Only 3 real differences between the areas: Better Habitat (Canyon), C&R vs. C&R&K(1 over 16"), Much easier access (below the canyon). Differences are probably attributable to a complex blend of  all three. The solution for the whole fishery should be derived deliberately. Hopefully, we’re not carrying fin tags or punch cards anytime soon. BP

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Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing. I eat reds and specks that I catch on an Abu Garcia 6500 as much as I do a 16 inch trout caught on a 18 Adams. It is a simple thing and would be common if it wern’t for the Bunny Huggers. Am I the only one that eats fish here? If you get a fish that is as good as a trout as table fair, you should make it table fair. i know I’ll get hell from everyone about this but I accept that. BryceC

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Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing.

While that’s nice (and perhaps you’d like to trade some recipes): Somewhere some nincompoop(s) cooked this whole issue into a one or the other kind of argument. What was supposed to an idea of applying common sense for the good of fishing for the future has been perverted into a sort of quasi religion and had a concommittent religious backlash. That there are those who say you should never kill a fish and to kill a fish bespeakes a blatant disregard for the sport and the environment versus those who say there should always be a kill and a meal regardless or close a fishery down ( like you having to justify the cost of your sport with a meal on the table as if being on the water and hooking a fish or two can’t be enough) just proves to me there are people who don’t really want to think about an issue and then ironically decide they have all the answers. One eminent poster here once eluded to Ecclesiates and said there is a time to kill (as in your fishery has an undeniable surplus available) and a time to release (such as is the case for virtually all wild steelhead) where you can’t really be certain of a sufficient number of fish being available for the future of the stocks to be assured. It may be a matter of convention (like on the Dean) where the body of anglers fishing there agree releasing is the best thing to do or boil down to personal preference. But why not accept it as a fact sometimes it is best to let it live. For those that don’t like those sorts of fisheries they can go someplace else. It’s a big free wide world. Ralph H replace "spamsucks" with direct for email reply.

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Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing.  Am I the only one that eats fish here? BryceC

Bryce; The point is that many (most) FFermen prefer the opportunity to catch lots of quality fish all year.  If I and all other FFermen kept a good % of the trout we caught, there would really be very little reason to continue the sport.  Here in PA, wild trout would not exist in the numbers that they do were it not for voluntary C&R.  We have way more fishermen than fish to support the sport.  If people keep the fish they catch, it will not ever be able to be caught by other fishermen or yourself, guaranteed.  Here in the East, we would very quickly run out of the good populations of wild fish that already struggle to survive in the shadow of Man.  All Catch and Cook would do is deplete the resource to the point of destruction.  (But, then again, that IS the american way, isn’t it? Fuck it all to hell and let someone else pay for the baby.) Jason Beary

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        Killing a fish and eating it is not a dishonorable thing to do. The angler should use a little discretion, though. Where they are scarce, it’s foolish to kill them. On the other hand, if the trout are plentiful I may keep one or two per trip.         You are right, Bryce, when you admit that you are likely to catch some flak over this issue. But, where legal, it is your RIGHT to do that if you wish. People can holler all they want, but it’s their problem not yours. Just use good judgment, and don’t overcook those beauties. Enjoy! (Try poaching them in wine and garlic.)

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Jason makes a good point, but it is true that there is nothing wrong with keeping fish where it is legal to do so.  If you care about the resource (which you should if you want to continue to C&C) then I strongly recommend supporting a mixed management program in your area that protects some waters with C&R, some with limited C&K.  If eating trout is your real pleasure, try searching out the put-n-take waters in your area (if they exist).  Living in San Diego, as I do, means travelling long distances for abundant trout streams, but the winter fishing in local lakes for put-n-take trout is pretty good.  And believe it or not, the private hatchery that provides the fish feeds them on something that makes ‘em taste really good.  Maybe you can find something like this in your area.   —                                                            -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Its Catch and Cook. I practice it regularly. What is the point if spending hundreds of dollars in tackle and not eating a fish that you catch? I am not saying only fly fishing.  Am I the only one that eats fish here? BryceC Bryce; The point is that many (most) FFermen prefer the opportunity to catch lots of quality fish all year.  If I and all other FFermen kept a good % of the trout we caught, there would really be very little reason to continue the sport.  

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Question:

I am going to Key West in a couple of weeks and was hoping to slip away for a half day and do a little fly fishing on the keys.  I will have a car.  Is there anywhere that I might go unguided within driving distance of KW where I might have a chance to stumble on fish?

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Try "Saddle Bunch", I know of people who have stepped off of US1 right into the foot deep water and have landed Bonefish there. Its not far from KW if you’re driving you’ll pass right by it. Mark Ballard http://members.aol.com/veromark/fish.html

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Question:

For the life of me, I do not understand what a double tapered leader is supposed to do.  It produces a discontinuity in the transmission of energy in the line to the fly.  Maybe it is used to cause a pileup of leader.

Not really. The DT leader I mentioned was presented by AJ McClane in an essay on small stream angling (i.e. tight situations). Though I can’t claim to speak for the late Mr. McClane, the leader was designed to cast a fly in situations where the angler has very little line out, perhaps only a few feet. I’ve used the leader many times under these circumstances and it does what it was designed to do. My suggestion would be for you to tie one up and play around with it. If you like it, you may add it to your sporting arsenal. If you don’t like it, you may discard it in an appropriate manner. Regards, Spinolio

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0] : For the life of me, I do not understand what a double tapered leader is : supposed to do.  It produces a discontinuity in the transmission of energy : in the line to the fly.  Maybe it is used to cause a pileup of leader. : William Buchman I believe the idea is that when you are fishing so short that you have little or no fly line out you get a DT flyline-like action from the leader and thus better control. Mike — Michael McGuire                         Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (415)-857-5491                   Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

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Not long ago there was a thread in ROFF concerning leader recipes and, though this might have been mentioned somewhere, I thought I’d post one for a double-tapered leader. I found this recipe in one of my books by the late, great A.J. McClane (who could probably be the subject of an entire newsgroup) in one of his essays on small stream angling. Here’s how a 7.5 foot DT leader can be tied, from butt to tippet: 18 inches of .014 leader material 6 inches of .015 6 inches of .017 15 inches of .019 9 inches of .015 9 inches of .013 12 inches of .011 15 inches of .009 (lighter tippet can be added if you want) This leader is constructed in such a way that you can cast it with your hand. On small streams and tight spots where you have very little line to work with, the leader itself is sufficient to throw a small fly. Quite an item to have in your vest. Spinolio

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not long ago there was a thread in ROFF concerning leader recipes and, though this might have been mentioned somewhere, I thought I’d post one for a double-tapered leader. I found this recipe in one of my books by the late, great A.J. McClane (who could probably be the subject of an entire newsgroup) in one of his essays on small stream angling. Here’s how a 7.5 foot DT leader can be tied, from butt to tippet: 18 inches of .014 leader material 6 inches of .015 6 inches of .017 15 inches of .019 9 inches of .015 9 inches of .013 12 inches of .011 15 inches of .009 (lighter tippet can be added if you want) This leader is constructed in such a way that you can cast it with your hand. On small streams and tight spots where you have very little line to work with, the leader itself is sufficient to throw a small fly. Quite an item to have in your vest. Spinolio

Lots of good info in all books buy A.J. McClane and Joe Brooks. They were pretty progressive for 50 years ago. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Lots of good info in all books buy A.J. McClane and Joe Brooks. They were pretty progressive for 50 years ago.

Definitely. A lot of the questions that beginners in the newsgroup ask are dealt with in books by those two. McClane in particular created a foundation of techniques for modern angling, IMO. As long as we’re on the subject, is there any truth to the story that McClane was an agent for the CIA? It sounds crazy, but when you read about some of his strange fishing trips to Africa and South America it kind of makes sense. How ’bout it, Mr Gehrke? Do you have any insight on the matter? Spinolio

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Lots of good info in all books buy A.J. McClane and Joe Brooks. They were pretty progressive for 50 years ago. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Hi William, I sure agree, my most used reference book is McClane’s New Standard Fishing Encyclopedia. I’ve had it since the early 70’s and reference it often. I personally like to fish traditional wet flies and it is one of the few places I know to get patterns tied by Harry & Elsie Darbee. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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For the life of me, I do not understand what a double tapered leader is supposed to do.  It produces a discontinuity in the transmission of energy in the line to the fly.  Maybe it is used to cause a pileup of leader. William Buchman

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Question:

Steve, There is the San Mateo Sportsman’s show that used to be held in March and will be held in Jan or Feb. this coming year (96).  This is a consumer show with all the big guns represented whereas the Fly Tackle Dealer Show is a dealer show not a consumer show.  If you like fly fishing, and live in the Bay Area, don’t miss it.                                                    Dan Dan Gracia Schools Coordinator Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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I’ll be attending the The Fly Tackle Dealers’ Show in Denver next month. Anyone wishing information on new products (particularly rod blanks and components) exhibited at the show, feel free to post e-mail. I’ll be returning on approx. Sept. 25 and I’ll have a chance to respond at that time. You can also receive a free copy of our current catalogue with custom rods, blanks, componments, fly tying material and accessories by sending your name and snail mail address via e-mail. Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle    

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Question:

The shad run here in the Annapolis River of Nova Scotia is now at or near its peak peak.  The annual Shad Fishing tournament was just completed and for the second year in a row, the prize for the flyfishing catagory was determined by lot – i.e no shad were caught on the fly. Does anyone have any general advice re catching those darned things on a fly?  Sure would appreciate any help re patterns, method etc. Les

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The shad run here in the Annapolis River of Nova Scotia is now at or near its peak peak.  The annual Shad Fishing tournament was just completed and for the second year in a row, the prize for the flyfishing catagory was determined by lot – i.e no shad were caught on the fly. Does anyone have any general advice re catching those darned things on a fly?  Sure would appreciate any help re patterns, method etc. Les

These shad drove me nuts on the Merrimac for years. I always fished them quartering down, expecting a hit on the drift, like most salmonid type fish. Finally started hooking them by using a Hi-D head with a weighted fly on the bottom with very slow strips. Lose a lot of flies that way, but it’s the only way I could get them to hit. They fight great, but it’s almost like bait fishing :-

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It’s possible that our western experiences in flyfishing for Shad might be of some assistance.  We usually fish them in heavy water (8,000 cfs or better), and the key is finding their depth in the particular channel you are casting to.  I usually start with a Hi-D, extra fast sink shooting head, then work up.  Shad seem to travel at very specific depths on their upstream movements, and I have found they will not move very much to look at a fly.  The casting we use is a quarter upstream, then mend to give the fly a dead drift. ANY drag on the fly, and you might as well shoot again. Some strikes are very soft, so keep your index finger lightly under the shooting line to detect.  Other strikes (usually near the end of the drift) are like freight trains.  To summarize: look for proper depth, and MEND. If you’ll E-Mail me, I’ll send you by regular mail, two patterns that work very well out here.  They are bright (flourescent yellow is good) and beady-eyed.  The common crappie fly, available anywhere, works very well.

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Question:

: I’m heading to Colo. next week to ski, but the snow looks a little thin : and I’m thinking of bringing some fly tackle.  I haven’t fished Colo. in : years, but have fond memories of the Blue some thirty years ago, learning         I think there is typically some activity on the Blue this time of year.  As you are going to be skiing (maybe close to summit county) it would be a convenient place to go.  Any of the local fly shops should be very helpful in outfitting you with a decent selection of flies and should also give you some idea of where to go.           If you wouldn’t mind a drive, you might try the South Platte good luck

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| |   If you wouldn’t mind a drive, you might try the South Platte |   Where is Cheeseman Canyon. Does one need a 4-wheel drive to get there??  Is it still running??

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:    Where is Cheeseman Canyon. Does one need a 4-wheel drive to get there??  Is it :  still running?? :   : The So. Platte in Cheesman Canyon is a tailwater. so there is always open water (unless temperature get very low : and cause some icing). It’s a hour drive west of Denver on pavement and a 15-min. to half-hour hike on trail into 3 mile long : canyon stretch. Many large but educated rainbows there. I would suggest hiring a guide to get you into fish quickly. Call : "The Flyfisher" flyshop at 303-322-5014 if your interested, as the Canyon can be very cruel to a newcomer. : Yours virtually, : Gary W. Godden : Denver, Colorado         If you are planning ahead of time and can get your hands on the book "Flyfishing the South Platte River" by Roger Hill, you could probably save money (I’m broke) and do reasonably well.  It is a very well written book and details the important flies and hatches all year long (including Jan.).

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   Where is Cheeseman Canyon. Does one need a 4-wheel drive to get there??  Is it  still running?? The So. Platte in Cheesman Canyon is a tailwater. so there is always open water (unless temperature get very low

and cause some icing). It’s a hour drive west of Denver on pavement and a 15-min. to half-hour hike on trail into 3 mile long canyon stretch. Many large but educated rainbows there. I would suggest hiring a guide to get you into fish quickly. Call "The Flyfisher" flyshop at 303-322-5014 if your interested, as the Canyon can be very cruel to a newcomer. Yours virtually, Gary W. Godden Denver, Colorado

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I’m heading to Colo. next week to ski, but the snow looks a little thin and I’m thinking of bringing some fly tackle.  I haven’t fished Colo. in years, but have fond memories of the Blue some thirty years ago, learning the fundamentals.  Any info on impact to the resource, locations, gear and tackle wold be appreciated.  Good fly shops around Summit county?  I have winter fished in Minn. (yes) and Mont., so I have some idea about what’s involved, like getting in the water without taking a swim.

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