Question:

" so I my be incommunicado for a while anyway.

so what’s different? –waldo

Response:

The cash register at your shop communicated just fine with me today, as did Tommy. Damn that fella can sell! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – " so I my be incommunicado for a while anyway. so what’s different? –waldo

Response:

<SNIP Op  –but maybe I will be able to afford to sex– Unlike ISP

Question:

as my abused feet thaw, i thought i’d share a trip report with ya’ll. jeff arrived at the predetermined time, and i was damn near ready. we eventually loaded my gear in the truck and made our way off to the elk. we stopped at a convenience store for ice but it really wasn’t needed— we could have just as well laid the beer out in the truck bed and it would have been properly chilled upon our return. we walked the snow packed trail down and reached our favorite put-in spot. as we had rigged up at the truck, we were ready to fish. aberrantly, i cockily asked jeff if he wanted to see a fish out of the first hole. i dropped my bhhe into the water..and lordy…a rainbow made me look like a laughing prophet. jeff just shook his head and laughed. i knew we were in for one hell of a special day. nymphing in the blue cold of winter is wonderful. the air is crisp and fresh, the river is changed, yet gorgeous in it’s white blanket. i’d finish this story for ya’ll…but sweet smells are wafting down here from marie’s cooking and i’m starved… just let it be known that it really doesn’t get any better than to be astream with a good friend, no matter how friggin cold it is! waldo..prince of pilsner

Response:

<good report snipped Nice sounding report Walt.  One time fishing the Upper Provo, my friend was not having any luck. I asked to see his rig.  He was using a gold ribbed hare’s ear.  I laid a cast using his fly rod in some ripples just before a pool and hooked up to a nice 12" rainbow.  Handed the rod back to him and told him, seems to be working fine.  It was pure luck and great timing on my part. bc. — Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt — Izaak Walton

Response:

Blackcat writes: Nice sounding report Walt.  One time fishing the Upper Provo, my friend was not having any luck. I asked to see his rig.  He was using a gold ribbed hare’s ear.  I laid a cast using his fly rod in some ripples just before a pool and hooked up to a nice 12" rainbow.  Handed the rod back to him and told him, seems to be working fine.  It was pure luck and great timing on my part. bc.

LOL.  That has happened to all of us, I belief.  The best one that happened to me concerned a registered Maine Guide.  He was "trying out" a new 3 weight he had just made.  I sat for about 10 minutes watching him cast a size 20 emerger into a particular pool.  He asked me to try the rod.  I made several false casts, sort of getting the feel of things.  When I presented the fly, it must have landed right in front of a 17 inch land locked salmon, for he came up and slashed at the fly.  The rest is a pleasant memory.  When I released the fish, I told him it not only cast well, but landed well too.  <g Dave L.

Response:

Question:

My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about. Does anybody have any information on these insects and if so, what patterns best imitate them. Thanks! Mike Wilson Fishing!! What else is there?

Response:

FlyFis4fun: <<Does anybody have any information on these insects and if so, what patterns best imitate them. Patterns are in "Fly Patterns of Umpqua Feather Merchants", and Stewrt/Allen’s "Flies for trout".  Both adult and larva patterns are listed.  I can not imagine the crane fly as a major hatch, but if you say so…… Dave LaCourse

Response:

My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about.

If they are indeed crane flies, also know as "daddy long legs" they belong to the family tipulidae, and are terrestrials which often fall on the water in considerable numbers, especially when it is windy,  being very clumsy fliers.  They are often imitated using long trailing knotted pheasant tail or nylon legs, body, hackle, and hackle tip spent wings to match the colour, usually from light tan to dark brown, but olive and yellow variations are also common.  An excellent pattern may be made using detached buoyant mayfly bodies. TL MC

Response:

Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly.   The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly. The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Hi Mike, how big is this insect ?  Does it hatch from the water, or does it just appear on the water ? TL MC

Response:

Many Crane Fly species are terrestial, living in damp soil.  Aquatic species are usually found in streams with bottoms of fine gravel silt or sand.  Pupation usually takes place in damp soil along stream margins and is therefore of little account to the flyfisherperson. The larvae are simple and tube like and usually not available to fish as they burrow rather deeply and have no swimming abilities.  They are available during spates and may be represented by wooly worms.  The "Muskrat", an old Polly Rosborough pattern is another Crane Fly larva imitation.  Adults seem to be more available during light summer rains and may be represented by any appropriately sized and colored dry fly. As I write this I am watching a hiuge cranefly llumbering around the room….here in the Northwest there is a species that frequents lawns(well watered) and in climax years actually causes quite a bit of damage to the turf. Thanks for the information gentleman but it appears that the insect that I am seeing is something other then the Crane Fly.   The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                          Tom McGuane

Response:

The insect in question, as afore mentioned, is a pale tan to whiteish tan and flys with its torso bent around to connect near its thorax.  It hatches in fair numbers though I must admit, I have never seen any of them actually land on the water.  The primary food on this river is Stone Flys so this is more of a question exploration then anything else. Thanks for the help so far. Mike

Hello Mike, I sometimes fish a limestone stream in Eastern Pennsylvania  where Orange Craneflys (orange head) gather in clusters all along the stream banks and edge of water.  The locals have an easy to tie pattern for the orange cranefly that is very effective..  Basically, your going to tie a dry fly without a tail or wings — just body, legs, & head.   Very lightly dubbed muskrat body with Dun colored hackle, use orange thread and build a small head.  I hope this helps. Dave

Response:

My favorite river appears to have a hatch of what somebody told me was Crane Flys.  The insects torso hangs below the wings and the bottom of the torso comes around and looks like it connects with the thorax.  Imagine a flying J with wings on the top part of the J and you have the insect I am talking about. If they are indeed crane flies, also know as "daddy long legs"

I don’t know about where you live, Mike, but in the US Crane Flies and Daddy Long Legs are not at all the same thing. Crane Flies actually have wings and fly. They look like gigantic mosquitoes, but they don’t bite. Daddy Long Legs look like large spiders (but they aren’t spiders). They don’t have wings.

Response:

Crane Flies:   When I was in Ireland a few summers ago, the gillie taught me how to "dibble" for salmon: He put a relatively heavy wet fly at the end of my leader, and then a bushy dry fly on a dropper, about 6′ up from the tippet.   The idea was to use the wet fly as an anchor, and then bob the rod tip, so the dry fly danced on the surface of the water…on the surface one second, then suddenly 6" above, like a big bug jumping up and down on the water.   So I haven’t tried this over hear yet, frankly, but talking about it did lead to some interesting new information. I told this story to George Anderson,   and he said  "Sure, the guys over in Dillon (MT) have been fishing the crane fly hatch on the Beaverhead that way for years!" — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

Response:

They look like giant mosquitoes…so how about a size 2 mosquito??? George

Response:

Fish the larvae The trout eat them Lots easier to tie too… a Beaver leech — Free Lake Fly Fishing On-Line Magazine Lake Fly Fishing CD’s, Videos, Books http://www.rural.escape.ca/angling_north/fishing/organz.htm

Response:

Question:

I have seen an inflatable boat under a wing. Does anyone have info or experiences with this craft. Seems to be the logical choice for the Florida Keys. — Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish, goes home through the alley. Anonymous http://fish-n-net.com/

Response:

Try SEAIR at     www.seair.com They make a 2 place wieght shift "trike" plane mated to a small hard-bottom inflatible boat with out-rigger pontoons. Their info vido raises a few questions:  The demo pilot flies with a helmet chin strap loose…  Then he flies a bit close to a palm tree, striking a frond with his wing tip! In a recent issue of "Yachting" magazine I saw an ad for a similar Rogollo wing trike mated to a Zodiac type boat. Good luck.  Rocky Kyle

Response:

The plane you are talking about is called a "Polaris" and the one of the sales outlets is in Florida. Dave Loveman http://www.ultralightnews.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen an inflatable boat under a wing. Does anyone have info or experiences with this craft. Seems to be the logical choice for the Florida Keys. — Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish, goes home through the alley. Anonymous http://fish-n-net.com/

  ulnews.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

I have seen such a craft. Call Mike Jacober at Arctic Sparrow aviation in Birchwood Alaska  (I haven’t got the phone number handy – it’s in the book) for more info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen an inflatable boat under a wing. Does anyone have info or experiences with this craft. Seems to be the logical choice for the Florida Keys. — Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish, goes home through the alley. Anonymous http://fish-n-net.com/

Response:

The phone # I have is 1-800 950-8830 for the Polaris the website is at http://www.polarismotor.it/ Dave Loveman http://www.ultralightnews.com *** Posted from RemarQ – http://www.remarq.com – Discussions Start Here ™ ***

Response:

The plane you are looking for is a Polaris and it can be found at http://www.polarismotor.it/ Dave Loveman http://www.ultralightnews.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen such a craft. Call Mike Jacober at Arctic Sparrow aviation in Birchwood Alaska  (I haven’t got the phone number handy – it’s in the book) for more info. I have seen an inflatable boat under a wing. Does anyone have info or experiences with this craft. Seems to be the logical choice for the Florida Keys. — Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish, goes home through the alley. Anonymous http://fish-n-net.com/

  ulnews.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

Try SEAIR at     www.seair.com They make a 2 place wieght shift "trike" plane mated to a small hard-bottom inflatible boat with out-rigger pontoons. Their info vido raises a few questions:  The demo pilot flies with a helmet chin strap loose…  Then he flies a bit close to a palm tree, striking a frond with his wing tip! In a recent issue of "Yachting" magazine I saw an ad for a similar Rogollo wing trike mated to a Zodiac type boat.

I have a 3-man inflatable but I am in Oklahoma, and I don’t see shipping. No one wants to send loot ahead, and I don’t see trusting them, either. I ask $85 for it, you pick it up. It should carry one man and a trike, with the wheels off.  Mounting it is your problem. Or I might trade for something good. Ham radio, ot rest gear, handgun, machine tools or test gear, whatever. "The learned Fool writes his nonsense in better language, but ’tis still nonsense." B.Franklin ‘Poor Richard Improved’ (1754) Lou H. Prolific inventor, Lousy Salesman, Incompetent businessman. (Typical of the Breed) Looking for both around Tulsa OK, USA

Response:

Question:

And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq.

I hear where your coming from on this Richard.  And many times I feel the same way.  But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough.  I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself.  So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment.  In the otherhand  I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is.  Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan

Response:

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

How many? Lots. How many that are anything like swimmers? One. I have never perceived it to be much of a problem.  I guess someone could get hurt, but I bet it is fairly rare.  I don’t think the risk of death or serious injury are significant there. Pete

Response:

Was that meant to be a provocation or just an accidentally stupid comment?

Response:

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

I find this answer unsatisfying.  It would seem to indicate that the swimmers have more of a claim to the spot than paddlers; I don’t think either should be given a preference, and that they should share the spot.  However, it’s difficult to share it *safely* when swimmers arrive en masse, sans helmets, with no warning.  (Just as it would be difficult to share it safely *if* paddlers didn’t wait their turn, etc.) Given that most boaters are accustomed to waiting in line there anyway, I think just letting them know that swimmers are coming would alleviate much of the potential problem.  But that’s easier said than done. (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy.  For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank.  It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

Response:

When a kayaker is playing in Swimmers, it is nearly impossible to see a human head and life jacket bob by (bob by out of control)  The question is then :  Is it safe for a person to intentionally jump in the water in front of a spinning kayak and continue downstream toward that kayak, virtually invisible and out of control?  Of course that is not safe.   Therefore, this should not be encouraged by rafting companies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy. What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira

Response:

Paul – Your situation is very different than the Lower Yough.  I have no problem with *guided* raft trips; it’s the unguided ones, that OC1 says to leave the rafts hanging.  Help the people – leave the rafts.  Unfortunately, it’s cheaper to rent an unguided raft for the customer, and probably more profitable for the rafting company than the guided trips.  I like the idea of making these unguided rentals more costly for both sides. – Mothra  (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story        

Response:

WHAT ANOTHER BUREAUCRATIC LICENSE? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. I hear where your coming from on this Richard.  And many times I feel the same way.  But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough.  I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself.  So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment.  In the otherhand  I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is.  Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan

Response:

Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say brilliant.  The situation up here is different, in that the most rafts I ever been passed by in one day is about six, and ALL the commercial companies put guides in their rafts.  (Actually there are other companies that will rent rafts, but they’re not right at the river, since there isn’t much market for them. They have to be in a city, and cater to people going to different rivers.) Notwithstanding that, if I ran across a pinned raft, I’d probably give them a hand, even if just to practise my own rescue skills. Now, if I were running into pinned rafts every day, I’d probably run out of the need for practice, and follow OC1’s advice.  Having said that, I don’t think it would make any difference on a river like the Yough.  If the raft companies had to go out and rescue their rafts, they’d just start charging a rescue deposit.  You pay an extra $100 when you rent your raft, and if you return it all in one piece, you get the money back.  If the company has to send someone to retrieve it, you don’t.  Would such a deposit have an effect on people’s safety?  Would they try harder to avoid trouble (I doubt it), or would they risk themselves unnecessarily in the event they do get their raft pinned (possible)? -Paul

Response:

Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to

come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them – Mothra  (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story        

Response:

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.

That’s a lot like saying boaters should give up Beat Me Daddy (Jaws) on the Nolichucky, Hellhole on the Ocoee, of Diagonal Ledges on the Lower Gauley.  Swimmers is not merely "the best" playspot on the Lower Yough, it stands head, shoulders, torso, and hips above any other.  Swimmers, incidently, is not "training" or "swimming practice", because the trip is already half over, and the #1 raft-flipping rapid is the one that leads into Swimmers (Swimmers was named by the raft companies, BTW, but I have often wondered if it wasn’t named for the unintendo swimmers that flip at Dimple?) What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well?

The post you reply to, John, is not proposing banning swimmers from the site.  The poster, Joe Hatcher, is a raft guide for Pete’s sake, and he is asking for suggestions for a safe solution to the problem he perceives, such that everyone can continue to enjoy that spot without any injuries. Joe, I’d say (and I’ve said everytime I see rafters flying out of their boats and flushing under Dimple Rock) that the solution is a helmet law.  I don’t know if the raft companies charge extra rental fees for helmets, but I believe they do for wetsuits.  ALL that stuff ought to be provided — reguired, except for wetsuits in July and August — to every customer. And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited.  If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users.  Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS!  Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy.  For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank.  It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

Rich is right!  This is a hole that is probably one of the best, anyplace, to teach boaters how to sit up and control thier boats in a side surf.  I can body surf into the hole and stand up in the foam pile.  I can stand there and have less experienced boaters paddle into the hole, grab hold of them and stabilize them.  I can then instruct them on how to sit up properly and how to place thier paddle and how to work to the river right seam and use it to spin and switch paddle size. If they go over, I can many times right them quickly and stabilize them and give them a chance to breath and feel relaxed.  They then can choose to try it again or go back to the eddy.  I stand in there and help people in Duckies get 360’s when it is there first time in a river.  My son at 13, could go in without a paddle and be anyplace he wanted in the hole, and spin whenever he wanted.  Now I don’t let him get in without me there to make it more challenging for him other wise he may become a hole hog.  Can’t allow that.  Just as long as boaters know swimmer are coming and swimmers are wearing helmets, there are no problems with swimmers and boaters in this hole.  Plenty enough room and time for both. Dan

Response:

Problem First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.

        With all of the extremely stupid regulations that the Peoples Republic of Pennsylvania has for that park (no beer, launch times, water level restrictions), you’d think that helmets would be mandatory.

Response:

I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous.  Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them.  I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim.

I spend very little time on the Lower Yough, so can’t speak to this particular site, but we have swim spots on the New, Cheat, Upper and Lower Gauley.  Our insurance companies are very aware of the practice and help to provide the guidelines we use when swimming our guests.  As has been discussed in another thread, a controlled and instructed swim in a relatively safe rapid can be a real asset for someone who later finds themselves swimming unexpectedly.  These rapids have all been swum by thousands of raft guests over the years, so any hazards would have presented themselves by now.  Remember that out your way you’re dealing with much colder water, which can be an important factor.  Here it makes sense. Dave Bassage

Response:

To:   Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado Whitewater Association Being on the "Safety Chair" of a WW Association, I’m supprised you haven’t heard of or can’t see the benafits of a comercial "guest", or anyone else, swimming a rapid as part of their safety training to prepare for a raft trip.   Of coarse it should be in a controled situation (no kayaks surfing the hole) with prudent safety precautions and with the guests in the proper atire.  I’d suggest; vest, helmet, footwear and any other cloathing that was prudent. I Saw Dave Bassage noted that the water may be colder in Colorado than out East but, I would assume and recomend that guests on a raft trip or anyone boating the river for that matter, should be dressed for a swim anyway. I’m not trying to be rude or "in your face" but, what is the Colorado whitewater Association anyway?  It has to do with boating… right? Your post supprises me as I thought this was a common practice.                                                        Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "

Response:

well, now… mebbe a good first step would be to put HELMETS and GUIDES with some of them there raftin’ folk… DUH!!! sheesh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.      It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.      This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.      First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.

Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim?   How many play holes are there on the lower yough?  The answer seems obvious to me.  Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river?   Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it.  Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira

Response:

Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed.

In reference to our previous post.  We have rude kayakers that screw up to. All groups have problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.

Cooperation. A month or so ago I was at Surfers Rapid on Section 4 of the Chattooga (sc and GA USA)  I was with about 5 other hard boats and we where trying to cartwheel the hole.  A group of rafts came down and they beached.  The customers all got out and stood on the rock.  We played for a minute then I paddled up to the guide.  He asked if we could get in the eddy for a minute to let some of his customers come down.  He sent between 8 and 10 and then we all took a trip in the hole.  He sent the next batch and we got in the hole again.  We took turns and had no problems whatsoever.  If we all realize that we have no more rights to be there than anyone else then thing get along fine.  It is when one group decides they have special rights that problems arise. Scott Bristow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.

I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No? Jez — "What happened while I was talking to the fish?"

Response:

1) Put helmets on all river users.  This is a bit of a no-brainer.  Big time liability on the part of any rafting company or guide who has clients swim in rapids or into traffic without helmets. 2) Assign a traffic cop/raft guide with a whistle to stand on shore at the play spot and coordinate the use equitable use of the hole.  It works well on the Ottawa.  Again, big time liability for any rafting company or guide who has clients swim into traffic without taking reasonable actions to control the traffic. Richard Culpeper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies

Ten deep is crowded? Man, I’ve been on the Ocoee too much….. Fester

Response:

I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous.  Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them.  I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim. Just my two cents. Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado White Water Association http://www.earthnet.net/~cwwa

Response:

Seems to me it would be tough living with it if I were the Raft guide who let or suggested his or her customers to swim the rapid when there were possible hazzards (kayaks playing in hole) there. My suggestion would be if there were kayaks there, fin someplace else. Not that it’s an ideal situation but, it’s kind of a "right of weight" thing.  Swimmers should avoid contact with kayakers (by not swimming there when kayaks are there, and as their GUIDE, you shouldn’t let them) like kayakers avoid your raft when you come down the rapid.  You don’t wait in the eddy above the rapid till the hole is clear before going down in a raft do you?  I think you figure they’ll get out of my way I have the "right of weight".                                                    Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "

Response:

First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No?

Well, you and I might agree that it should be so, but it’s not. Two of the more popular rivers for whitewater rafting in the eastern USA are here in Pennsylvania: the Lehigh and the (Lower) Youghiogheny. At normal flow levels, the Lehigh is II+, the Yough is III+; both are drop-and-pool rivers and both have an awful lot of boulders in them. (At high water, the Lehigh is easy III, with lots and lots of waves; the Yough starts taking on some IV characteristics and the pools, especially in the first mile, start to disappear.) On the Lehigh, nearly all raft trips that I’ve seen have been accompanied by guides: sometimes in the rafts, sometimes in duckies, often in kayaks. On the Yough, many of the raft trips that I’ve seen have been UNguided. Rafters are given a safety talk, PFD’s and paddles and rafts, and a waterproof "map" of the rapids and sent downstream.  I find this astonishing, given that there are a few places on the Yough that are known to cause safety problems for the untrained and even some of the trained (the undercut at Dimple; the foot entrapment spot in Cucumber). In neither case are they given helmets — I sat below Pipeline on the Lehigh at 2000 CFS a month ago and watched a guide working on a rafter’s head; her hair was a bloody mess, but she seemed to be relatively okay.  Whether the wound came during a swim or from a paddle, or something else, I don’t know — but I think a helmet would have probably prevented it. Contrast this with West Virginia, just to the south, where (unless I’ve had the statute misquoted to me) rafters are required by state law to wear helmets anytime they’re in III or above. No compliance incurs a fine for the rafter, the guide, and the company. I often wnoder what goes through the mind of rafters as they watch us go by.  Do they notice that we look like we know what we’re doing and that *we’re wearing helmets*?  Do they then ask their outfitters the obvious question? On the issue of Swimmers on the Lower Yough, I’ve been concerned about accidentally hitting a swimmer as well, especially because I paddle a slalom boat whose ends are quite pointed and could really hurt somebody.  It would probably help matters a lot if the raft guides (when there *are* guides) would send one of their number down to the hole and coordinate traffic with a counterpart up at the jump rock so that everybody can take their turn. I don’t mind sharing or waiting for my turn; I do mind being put in a situation where I suddenly find that I may be endangering someone even though that’s the last thing I’d ever want to do. —Rsk Rich Kulawiec

Response:

I play at Swimmer Hole on the Lower Yough quite frequently with my children.  I have had my daughter at 6 years old swim through it with me.  We all get into it and body surf it. I do not let my children swim through the rapid without a helmet.  I have been body surfing the hole and had a kayak come in with me.  I was more in the foam and he was about to knock me out of the wave so I grabbed the back of his boat and "seal" slid over him and we both kept on surfing.  no prolbem because we were both wearing protection.  Helmets. I am always amazed how raft companies can send people down without helmets.  Last time I was there (about 4wks ago) I saw some company guide butterfly bandaging some womans head at the bottom of Double Hydraulic Rapid.  She would not have needed that care if she had a helmet.  She would also look nicer without the Frankenstien stitches on her forehead. It irritates me that the Park Service will not let me run Ohiopyle Falls (an easy drop) but will allow hordes of unskilled, inexperienced people treat the Yough like a Disney World Ride ride and not wear the proper safety equipment.  So many times I have pulled families out of messes with my low volume boat, or advised families to get out and scout rapids.  One family with a father, mother, 14 yr son and 12 yr daughter were all over the river.  The daughter and mother were scared silly.  I suggested that they get out and look over Dimple and maybe let the mother and daughter walk.  The father was quite irritated with me.  I think I accidentaly stepped on his realm of power control and machismo. The mother and daughter complained until they let them out and the father and son proceeded to flip the raft on dimple. I want the ability to rent rafts privately at the L. Yough so I can take people down safely and have a good time.  But I am worried that too many people are allowed, and encouraged to get themselves into messes that could result in me loosing the privledge to privately rent a raft.  Half the time it seems like the guided trips (one or two guide rafts, maybe a safety boater kayak with many unguided rafts) that have the most injuries. It is a great river for improving skills for intermediate paddlers and a great place to give people a good whitewater experience.  but you need to wear helmets. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid.  It has a great surf hole.  In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep.  This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid.  First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it.  I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation.  Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.

Response:

Question:

i’ll be vacationing in hampton beach new hampshire, and would appreciate advice on good spots for either stripers or smallies. what about the inlet and back waters at hampton beach or the mouth of the merrymack river at the mass border? what flies are working well? thanks.

Response:

i’ll be vacationing in hampton beach new hampshire, and would appreciate advice on good spots for either stripers or smallies. what about the inlet and back waters at hampton beach or the mouth of the merrymack river at the mass border? what flies are working well? thanks.

Reel-Time has weekly fly fishing reports for the Merrimack River, and has recently been expanded to cover the NH and Maine Coast.  I write about the Merrimack and can tell you that the Merrimack has been doing well.  Olive/white clousers and Chartreuse/white clousers have been taking fish.  The URL’s in my sig. — Mark N. Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/3297/fishing.htm Mark Cahill’s Fishing New Engand -Daily Fishing News http://www.reel-time.com/ The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Metropolitan Boston Regional Editor

Response:

Question:

Several flyfishing folks in the Northeast Texas area are interested in organizing a FF club and  have ‘kinda’ elected me to put it together.  If anyone has any experience in organizing or even being a member in a FF club I could use some (all) of your guidance.  We would like to have it somewhere between a beer bust in the back yard and formal reading of the minutes etc. Thanks for any help! Knack Whitehouse, TX

Response:

Several flyfishing folks in the Northeast Texas area are interested in organizing a FF club and have ‘kinda’ elected me to put it together.  If anyone has any experience in organizing or even being a member in a FF club I could use some (all) of your guidance.  We would like to have it somewhere between a beer bust in the back yard and formal reading of the minutes etc. Thanks for any help! Knack Whitehouse, TX

Hi Knack Contact the Federation of Fly Fishers at 800-618-0808 and ask for their "Forming a Club" literature.  The information is straight forward and easy to follow. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Southern council of FFF (includes TX) has a web site: http://www.sky.net/~flyfish/ There are several small/local clubs affiliated with FFF. I don’t know the economics of the affiliation, but there might be something for you there. John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

Response:

Question:

Will be going to the Eugene area in mid-May to fish with my father-in-law.  Does anyone know of some convenient locations to trout fish?  I would really appreciate some help.  Both spin and fly.

Response:

Will be going to the Eugene area in mid-May to fish with my father-in-law. Does anyone know of some convenient locations to trout fish?  I would really appreciate some help.  Both spin and fly.

I would call Bob Guard at the Caddis Fly Shop in Eugene for some good info. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

Will also be in Eugene fishing May 17-25. My friend is acting as our guide. He says the McKenzie has awesome caddis hatches this time of year. Will also be going to the Motolius River. He also recommended the Caddis Fly Shop. Good Luck and tight lines

Response:

Will be going to the Eugene area in mid-May to fish with my father-in-law.  Does anyone know of some convenient locations to trout fish?  I would really appreciate some help.  Both spin and fly.

Fall creek is a small creek just outside of Eugene that has trout. If you have access to a boat the lower part of the McKenzie is great, if not just drive up hwy 126 along the river. Above Leaburg dam the water is small enough to wade and fish and they have recently stocked it so there will definately be some dumb easy to catch fish along with the natives.   Basicly just about any stream you see will have trout in it. Get a synopsis from a fishing shop if you don’t have one because some of the water has special restrictions, like no bait, barbless, fly fishing only and release of non-hatchery fish (can you believe it T-Bone, its the law and there are some huge wild redsides in the lower McKenzie because of it) Have fun and let us know how it went. Martin Allen

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are very pleased to announce the all new, FISHINTERNET AUSTRALIA http://www.fishnet.com.au/ This internet service is dedicated to the Australian recreational fishing scene. Sections cover all aspects of fishing in Australia with excellent information resources, fishing reports from around the country, full directory of all tackle shops, marine dealers, charters, guides, resorts etc. Please let us know what you think of this new service. Regards, David Dryden         Fishinternet Australia         http://www.fishnet.com.au/ I checked your page. It looks good. Can you help me with advice on fly-fishing for Barramundi in the Cairns / Port Douglas area, or even further north into Cape York. I’ve heard this is something of a new frontier in salt water fly fishing and that the Barramunid is excellent quarry. I will be in the area for 2 weeks in September. I’d like to know about seasons, flies, techniques, guides, etc. Thanks. Christopher Payne. Can you assure me of the availability of that nectar of the gods known

as Crown Lager Beer, its to die for. CL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are very pleased to announce the all new, FISHINTERNET AUSTRALIA http://www.fishnet.com.au/ This internet service is dedicated to the Australian recreational fishing scene. Sections cover all aspects of fishing in Australia with excellent information resources, fishing reports from around the country, full directory of all tackle shops, marine dealers, charters, guides, resorts etc. Please let us know what you think of this new service. Regards, David Dryden         Fishinternet Australia         http://www.fishnet.com.au/

I checked your page. It looks good. Can you help me with advice on fly-fishing for Barramundi in the Cairns / Port Douglas area, or even further north into Cape York. I’ve heard this is something of a new frontier in salt water fly fishing and that the Barramunid is excellent quarry. I will be in the area for 2 weeks in September. I’d like to know about seasons, flies, techniques, guides, etc. Thanks. Christopher Payne.

Response:

We are very pleased to announce the all new, FISHINTERNET AUSTRALIA http://www.fishnet.com.au/ This internet service is dedicated to the Australian recreational fishing scene. Sections cover all aspects of fishing in Australia with excellent information resources, fishing reports from around the country, full directory of all tackle shops, marine dealers, charters, guides, resorts etc. Please let us know what you think of this new service. Regards, David Dryden          Fishinternet Australia          http://www.fishnet.com.au/

Response:

Question:

done some diving from a kayak, and have found the following to be true: 1. You must make sure that your fins are secured in the boat. Most sink and will be of no use to you at the bottom of the sea. 2. You often need two hands to put fins on. If you don’t attach yourself to the boat and are still in a situation where it seems advantageous to be with your boat, this can be a problem. Additionally, if you don’t wear the booties you use with your fins, they are probably of little or no use. Fins that fit improperly are painful, at best, and frequently of little use.

A company call Caddis makes fins for float-tube fisherman.  They float and fit any size shoes, booties, etc.  You can probably find them at your local fly fishing store. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

1. You must make sure that your fins are secured in the boat. Most sink and will be of no use to you at the bottom of the sea.

A company called Caddis makes fins for float tube fisherman.  The fins float and fit any shoes. booties, etc.  You can probably find them at your local fly fishing store. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

I can’t help but think that a pair of fins stowed in your sea kayak would be a tremendous safety feature. Anyone who has used fins can testify that they are a HUGE advantage when swimming. Do any of you sea kayakers carry them?

Doug, I’ve considered this myself at times. I scuba as well as kayak, and have even done some diving from a kayak, and have found the following to be true: 1. You must make sure that your fins are secured in the boat. Most sink and will be of no use to you at the bottom of the sea. 2. You often need two hands to put fins on. If you don’t attach yourself to the boat and are still in a situation where it seems advantageous to be with your boat, this can be a problem. Additionally, if you don’t wear the booties you use with your fins, they are probably of little or no use. Fins that fit improperly are painful, at best, and frequently of little use. 3. Fins are still of little use in a strong current. What they provide in power, they cost in energy. I have seen many divers grow fatigued and give up after kicking under 100 yards against a slow current. They seemed to think the fins gave them enough power to overcome anything and never took the time to learn about currents and how to avoid same. If the distance is great, it is certainly wiser to find the way to cross the current than it is to don fins and swim directly into its teeth. 4. Preparing for cold water immersion is worth more than all the additional equipment you can carry. If you have your warmth, you don’t need to swim great distances or fight currents because you can wait for rescue. This means that you should make someone aware of your activities and location, that you should set a "drop dead" time, after which this person contacts the coast guard or relevant rescue agency, and that you should do your best to stay visible (more on these issues when I post the next article – I’ve just got to remember to bring in the magazine – there is also a discussion on fins in there too, but I don’t remember their conclusions – these comments are wholly my own). Anyway, it seems to me that if you are forced to swim, recognizing currents and avoiding them will be of more benefit. Fins can be a useful backup, but as always, if you are going to use them, practice. If you lose the fins when the boat capsizes or when you are trying to put them on in heavy conditions, you may find yourself in a nasty situation, especially if you are counting on them to get you to shore. Rick

Response:

 Hello, everyone,  although somewhat edited for brevity, the following is a description of an  accident (in Coos bay) and two incidents that (in Kalaloch Beach – part of Olympic National Park in Wash.) we should all take note of. Everything  in quotes is taken directly from the article.

Thanks for posting this.  I think we all need a reminder from time to time. Nature is way bigger than we are…..

Response:

I can’t help but think that a pair of fins stowed in your sea kayak would be a tremendous safety feature. Anyone who has used fins can testify that they are a HUGE advantage when swimming. Do any of you sea kayakers carry them?

Response:

Hello, everyone, although somewhat edited for brevity, the following is a description of an accident (in Coos bay) and two incidents that (in Kalaloch Beach – part of Olympic National Park in Wash.) we should all take note of. Everything in quotes is taken directly from the article. "Eric Konheim, 27, died on June 12, 1991, while kayak surfing alone…. Eric was a skilled kayaker, proud of his ability to roll and to read moving water… In 1987, Eric bought a folding sea kayak and began taking trips, including a 450-mile expedition along the Gulf Coast from Belize to Cancun, Mexico. He also paddled in the Sea of Cortez, the Bahamas, and along the coast of Venezuela. In 1988, he took a river kayaking class in Colorado and bought a white-water kayak. He kayaked many white-water rivers and was a commercial raft guide." … Eric’s companion was feeling ill and decided not to go out with him to do some kayak surfing in his Prijon T-Slalom kayak. Although this was a surfing accident, going in and out of surf is something we sea kayakers MUST do every time we go out, so don’t think ‘this can’t happen to me.’ It CAN. Enough commentary. "After telling Dave he would surf only for a short while, Eric went out alone at about 4 p.m. Dave took a nap and woake about a half hour later. He began looking for Eric and around 5 p.m. found his friend’s kayak floating in the surf. Unable to find Eric, he called for help." Eric was found at 6 p.m. by a Coast Guard Chopper (these guys don’t get enough credit – it’s too bad that they can only pick up the pieces afterward). He was 150 yards off short (an easy swim for someone who swam competitively, you may say, but I swam in college and done some open water swimming in strong currents. Believe me,150 yards can be a very LONG swim!). He was wearing: "a helmet, a PFD with a whistle and knife attached, a neoprene spray skirt, a pull-over pile jacket, and a long sleeve paddle jacket. Eric’s kayak and paddle were found in good condition. He had not worn either his wet suit or his dry suit, though he had both with him in his van. Eric knew about hypothermia: he had had EMT training and river guide training." … "The official cause of death listed on the medical examiner’s report is "asphyxia by drowning, immersion hyperthermia." This is reasonable considering the water temperature was 50-53 degrees Fahrenheit, and Eric was tall and thin and was not wearing much thermal protection. HIs core temper- ature was 73 degrees." The author points out that Eric (though wearing a helmet) may have been knocked out by his paddle. "I once broke the aluminum shaft of a sturdy white-water paddle while getting pitch poled…The water was deep, the  paddle hit nothing but water. The smooth curve left in the broken shaft proved there were no defects in the paddle. An engineering analysis later showed it took more than 200 pounts of force to break that paddle. If it had hit my head with that force… who knows?" In any case, this article brings out some interesting and notable points. If you do go out alone, please take all the cold water immersion protection you can. It’s really easy to cool off by doing a roll, but it just ain’t so easy to get warm. The other two stories are about currents. Both kayakers found themselves in the water 75 or more yards from shore. The first was wearing "a 1/8 inch farmer john-style wet suit, a PFD, neoprene spray skirt, helmet, and watersport sandals….I began swimming for the beach with both hands on the stern of my boat. After a while, it appeared my effort had been wasted; I was no closer to the beach." He lost a float bag from the kayak and it did a Cleopatra’s Needle when it filled, so he finally abandoned the boat. He found the surf conditions too rough for reentry. He tried to use his paddle to propel himself, but gave up after some fruitless effort. By this time, 40 minutes has passed and he is still no closer to shore. He believes that he didn’t realize he was caught in a rip current because his thinking was impaired by cold water shock. Finally, he began swimming cross-current and made his way back to shore once he exited the current. The good news is that he had been seen by a "couple on the beach," who called for help. The coast guard had responded, but he managed to get out before they arrived. Same story, same place, different person. Bill "had once played in a rip current…and he had been out in ocean swells…but this was his first time kayaking in ocean surf. Bill didn’t have a roll, but the though he could perform a self rescue or swim to shore if he capsized. Bill is a strong, formerly competitive, swimmer with SCUBA diving experience. He is very com- fortable in and around the water. His kayak had front and rear bulkheads…He wore a 1/4-inch-thick, full wet suit" (his scuba suit) "polypropylene long underwear, neoprene tooties, a neoprene diver’s hood, a paddling jacket, and a PFD." He also had a bilge pump, paddle float, and some flares. Bill was separated from his kayak by the heavy surf (8 foot breakers). "He tried in vain to re-enter the kayak using a paddle-float outrigger…He could only get half way in before another wave would hit and knock him over. After 10 minutes of unsuccessful self-rescue attempts, he realized he and his kayak were drifing dangerously close to the rocks." He fired a flare and watched a beachcombers pointed at the pretty color and resumed their activities. I guess flares only work if people understand what they are for. Bill finally decided it was time to part ways with his kayak. "He retrieved his paddle and the paddle float and began swimming toward shore with the paddle float under his chest. After about a half hour of swimming, he realized he was losing ground." See, not even we good swimmers can out swim a current. "He was about 300 yards from shore and quickly became exhausted…He had one thing in his favor: his 1/4-inch-thick wetsuit was keeping him warm." He "began body surfing toward shore for all he was worth. While swimming a crawl stroke with the paddle was unproductive, by holding it against his chest, he discovered the waves would push it and carry him toward shore. (An experienced paddler told me that he has used his paddle to advantage while swimming in surf, but unlike others I’ve talked to, he uses the paddle while swimming backstroke. His technique is similar to back paddling a kayak). Bill found he could steer across the waves by shifting the paddle in his hands. Using the paddle this way let him angle away from the rocks." "Lessons Learned: While the first paddler became chilled and possibly hypo- thermic in his 1/8 inch farmer john wet suit, Bill’s 1/4 inch thick full suit, booties, and hood actually kept him too warm! Soon after reaching shore, Bill removed some of his wet-suit clothing to cool off. In the water, Bill worried only about exhaustion and the rocks… In my experience, 1/8 inch thick Farmer John wet suits are not adequate protection for prolonged immersion in 50- degree water." This was all printed without permission, however, I feel safety is more important than copywrites. Everyone who goes kayaking should learn to roll. These two stories should let you know just how helpless a kayaker is in 50 degree water when currents are strong. The very gear you must wear to protect you from becoming hypothermic will make you a very weak (but bouyant) swimmer. You must use other methods of getting in and out of heavy conditions. If you must, leave the boat. It does provide a lot of bouyancy, but if you don’t have more than an hour of cold water protection, you’ve got to get going quickly. Don’t waste time waiting for help, you are your own best defense against accident. Well enough diatribe. If you wish, I will post other safety articles from Sea Kayaker when it comes out. Rick

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