Question:

WHY FISHING IS BETTER THAN SEX A big, juicy worm always gets a fish excited. You don’t have to eat a fish while it’s still flopping around. You can take a leak in the bush anytime you want. Stroking your rod won’t piss off a trout. Sipping a beer and scratching your balls is all the foreplay expected of you. Anything you stick in a fish’s face, it eats. A fish will never gag, choke, or come up for air. A red snapper won’t cry if you call it a flounder. You wear rubbers on your feet, not on your dick. If you want a bigger pole, you can have a bigger pole. A smart fish knows when to keep it’s mouth shut. It’s okay to cook a fish to make it taste good. Fish bite for a guy of 60; same as they do for a guy of 20. You’re never called a jerk when you throw back an ugly fish. Fish are real happy when you pick up your gear and go home.

Response:

WHY FISHING IS BETTER THAN SEX Anything you stick in a fish’s face, it eats.

Anyone who could say this has clearly never been fly fishing for trout hugs, elle — "The antidote to hatred in the heart, the source of violence, is tolerance." -The Dalai Lama

Response:

WHY FISHING IS BETTER THAN SEX A big, juicy worm always gets a fish excited. You don’t have to eat a fish while it’s still flopping around. You can take a leak in the bush anytime you want. Stroking your rod won’t piss off a trout. Sipping a beer and scratching your balls is all the foreplay expected of you. Anything you stick in a fish’s face, it eats. A fish will never gag, choke, or come up for air. A red snapper won’t cry if you call it a flounder. You wear rubbers on your feet, not on your dick. If you want a bigger pole, you can have a bigger pole. A smart fish knows when to keep it’s mouth shut. It’s okay to cook a fish to make it taste good. Fish bite for a guy of 60; same as they do for a guy of 20. You’re never called a jerk when you throw back an ugly fish. Fish are real happy when you pick up your gear and go home.

Response:

WHY FISHING IS BETTER THAN SEX Anything you stick in a fish’s face, it eats.

Anyone who could say this has clearly never been fly fishing for trout hugs, elle — "The antidote to hatred in the heart, the source of violence, is tolerance." -The Dalai Lama

Response:

Question:

You’re going to Key West right?  More likely to see lots of guys in

butt-flossing suits. Hairy butts in a butt-flosser?  Eeewww! I’ll have nightmares tonight.  Thanks. Many people think its safer to fly to Key West from Miami along the chain of islands as opposed to directly across the Florida Bay (via Victor 225 or B9 if you have an ADF or GPS).

That was my reasoning.  Coming from my direction, it’s either that or over the swamp then ocean. Besides, another pilot told me that flying US1 is probably the most beautiful flying that can be had in the States.  I’m not so sure.  As you can see on the sectional there are very few airports, public or private, in the keys.  If you lose an engine you probably aren’t going to be able to make a successful landing on US 1

Oh?  Why not?  Flying along the west coast will be shorter but I was gonna head to Miami for just that reason. At least a car is likely to spot me going down, right? Finally be sure and watch out of R-2916.  The government launches a 14,000 ft high tethered balloon there with radar to catch drug smugglers or whatever.  You sure don’t want to wander off course and fly into it.

Yeah, I’ve pointed that out to a few co-workers.  a 14,000 foot tether. That’s amazing. Thanks for your comments.  Anything else you wanna share would be appreciated. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention.

Didn’t know there were Buffet conventions.  Now that I do, I can’t imagine missing the next one.  Does Jimmy bring the Albatross?  There used to be one of those based on a lake near where I live.  The owner would do type ratings for the local Continental pilots.  It was just awesome watching that thing coming in low, landing (watering???), then taxiing around on the lake for a takeoff.  It’s gone now, think the owner took it to Lake Powell. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on?

I decided long ago to use DUATS for information only but to talk to a real live briefer before I go anywhere.    The FSS briefers are *required* to intepret the information they are giving you, whereas the computer of course can’t do that. Pull a DUATs report, try to figure out where the little jerkwater places that they use as weather reporting points are, then try to understand which of the NOTAMS they list apply to your flight (WHY in God’s name do they tell me about Iranian airspace restrictions when I’m flying from Houston to Austin?  For those of you in the UK, that route of flight does not go close to Iran, or Iraq, or Oklahoma, or any other foreign country). My favorite weather source, believe it or not, is this one: http://www.uswx.com/.   I expect that there are others that do something similar, but this lets me look at fronts, and movement, etc.  So I’ll keep an eye on this, and talk to the FSS guys sometime before I head for the airport to see if I missed something and to get their intepretation. So far, it’s worked for me. Or, a trite answer:  If you are worried, don’t go.  If you go anyway, be mindful of accident chains and watch for one forming. Good luck!  I’m looking at your route weather now, and it looks crappy in Pensacola and South Florida.  http://www.uswx.com/us/wx/FL/

Response:

There’s another ballon just like that near Cross City, FL that you will pass going to the Keys from Atlanta. Before you buy.

Response:

SNIP Oh?  Why not?  Flying along the west coast will be shorter but I was gonna head to Miami for just that reason.

US 1 is a two lane road with lots of traffic and no berm.  Its also crisscrossed with lots and lots of electric and telephone lines, trees, etc. I wouldn’t say its impossible but, overall, in my opinion its a pretty poor choice for a landing strip. Your friends who commented that its a beautiful flight (from Miami to Key West) are correct, it is. If you decide to go the west coast route stop at Everglades City (X01), the best kept airport secret in south Florida.  Its the entrance to the "unspoiled" part of the Everglades and offers a couple of good restaurants and a beautiful flight over the "10,000 islands" south of Naples.    If you go the Miami route stop at Marathon (MTH) which actually has a much longer runway then Key West, a friendly FBO, lots of restaurants, and generally a far more laid-back experience then Key West (plus you won’t find many hairy butts wearing flossed bathing suits there). Have a great time! Regards, Tom

Response:

Trouble is, if the weather is too bad to fly, most of the women won’t be on the beach.  On the other hand you can always fish in the rain.  Enjoy the trip. Brian E. High wing sissy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being stuck in Key West won’t be so bad if you are smart enough to remember your fishing gear . You know, that’s a terribly obvious statement but one I haven’t really considered. There are worse things than being stranded on a beach filled with women wearing them butt-flossing suits. Thanks, — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

WHY in God’s name do they tell me about Iranian airspace restrictions when I’m flying from Houston to Austin?  

Seems to me there’s a question about non-associated FDC NOTAMS, and you have to appropriately answer the question about declining to see them. If you don’t answer the question the right way, then you get the Iranian and Afghani airspace restrictions as well as the ones about not transporting Ferdinand Marcos’s body.  At least that’s the way the Contel/GTE/whoeverytheyarenow DUATS (duats.com) system works. Larry

Response:

You’re going to Key West right?  More likely to see lots of guys in butt-flossing suits. Hairy butts in a butt-flosser?  Eeewww! I’ll have nightmares tonight.  Thanks.

Uck!!! Gee Jim, thanks a lot for bring up that eventuality.  I am going to go thrown up now.

Response:

Being stuck in Key West won’t be so bad if you are smart enough to remember your fishing gear .

You know, that’s a terribly obvious statement but one I haven’t really considered. There are worse things than being stranded on a beach filled with women wearing them butt-flossing suits. Thanks, — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

There are worse things than being stranded on a beach filled with women wearing them butt-flossing suits.

You’re going to Key West right?  More likely to see lots of guys in butt-flossing suits. You should have flown down last weekend for Fantasy Fest.  Its held in Key West every year the weekend before Halloween.  Its a combination Mardi Gras, Halloween sort of thing.  Two years ago, when my wife and I flew down for Fantasy Fest, the airport was crammed chock full with airplanes.  The guy in the golf cart from the FBO said my wife and I were one of the few couples to arrive with clothes on that afternoon.  Apparently its a fun thing to fly naked. On a serious note, if your flight segment includes Naples to Key West be sure and file a DVFR flight plan.  Its mandatory.   VFR flights from Miami along the keys do not require DVFR flight plans even though the route of flight crosses the ADIZ.  Check out your AF/D for more information. Many people think its safer to fly to Key West from Miami along the chain of islands as opposed to directly across the Florida Bay (via Victor 225 or B9 if you have an ADF or GPS).  I’m not so sure.  As you can see on the sectional there are very few airports, public or private, in the keys.  If you lose an engine you probably aren’t going to be able to make a successful landing on US 1 (the only road in the keys) and with no fields or open spaces its the water, the mangrove swamps, or shopping centers to land in. Finally be sure and watch out of R-2916.  The government launches a 14,000 ft high tethered balloon there with radar to catch drug smugglers or whatever.  You sure don’t want to wander off course and fly into it. Have Fun!   I wish I was joining you! Regards, Tom

Response:

I don’t know nuttin ’bout no Parrotheads! Have flying lessons on Friday. But sounds like a great trip!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Regardless of the weather, you are absolutely going to need a designated pilot. Well, I was planning to designate *myself* as designated pilot.  Perhaps you are speaking of a designated IFR pilot in, perhaps, a designated Saratoga? You offering? — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180 Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on? Up ’till now, all my x/c hops have been relatively short 300nm trips and weather during those times has been very predictable and easy to understand. This time, though, I’m looking at a wandering jet stream and a big, nasty, slooooow moving front that bisects the USA.  Then we have some sorta cloud cover in the Gulf that’s moving towards the Florida panhandle. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I’m studying for the instrument exam so don’t go there! Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Being stuck in Key West won’t be so bad if you are smart enough to remember your fishing gear . Mike MU-2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on? Up ’till now, all my x/c hops have been relatively short 300nm trips and weather during those times has been very predictable and easy to understand. This time, though, I’m looking at a wandering jet stream and a big, nasty, slooooow moving front that bisects the USA.  Then we have some sorta cloud cover in the Gulf that’s moving towards the Florida panhandle. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I’m studying for the instrument exam so don’t go there! Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Regardless of the weather, you are absolutely going to need a designated pilot.

Well, I was planning to designate *myself* as designated pilot.  Perhaps you are speaking of a designated IFR pilot in, perhaps, a designated Saratoga? You offering? — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on? Up ’till now, all my x/c hops have been relatively short 300nm trips and weather during those times has been very predictable and easy to understand. This time, though, I’m looking at a wandering jet stream and a big, nasty, slooooow moving front that bisects the USA.  Then we have some sorta cloud cover in the Gulf that’s moving towards the Florida panhandle. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I’m studying for the instrument exam so don’t go there! Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on? Up ’till now, all my x/c hops have been relatively short 300nm trips and weather during those times has been very predictable and easy to understand. This time, though, I’m looking at a wandering jet stream and a big, nasty, slooooow moving front that bisects the USA.  Then we have some sorta cloud cover in the Gulf that’s moving towards the Florida panhandle. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I’m studying for the instrument exam so don’t go there! Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Regardless of the weather, you are absolutely going to need a designated pilot.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on? Up ’till now, all my x/c hops have been relatively short 300nm trips and weather during those times has been very predictable and easy to understand. This time, though, I’m looking at a wandering jet stream and a big, nasty, slooooow moving front that bisects the USA.  Then we have some sorta cloud cover in the Gulf that’s moving towards the Florida panhandle. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I’m studying for the instrument exam so don’t go there! Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Or, if the return date is not essential, then I figure spending a few extra days at the destination won’t be so bad.

That would suck being trapped in Key West… One thing to consider is that central/south FL have very distinct wet and dry seasons.   The dry season is beginning about now and will reach it’s peak during January.  It hardly ever rains during that time, but if a "cold" front makes it that far south it can get VERY windy. tim PP-ASEL

Response:

Jim, The question I always ask myself when confronted with conditions like this is "how critical is it that I get back on the day I plan to return."   If I don’t have any latitude and absolutely need to be home then I’ll scrub the flight or resign myself to possibly having to return home commercially and return later to pick up the plane. Or, if the return date is not essential, then I figure spending a few extra days at the destination won’t be so bad. It’s not unusual for me to make a final decision on the morning of the outbound flight based upon that day’s weather and the future forcast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Anyone wanna tackle this? I’m planning to go to Key West in a couple of days.  VFR.  Jimmy Buffet Parrothead convention. I’ll be flying from PDK (Atlanta) to EYW (Key West) departing Friday morning and coming back Sunday. My decision, right now, is to go. Just for the sake of discussion (and if anyone would like to take the time), what’s the weather/trip look like to you experienced fellers?  What sources of info do you base your assessment on? Up ’till now, all my x/c hops have been relatively short 300nm trips and weather during those times has been very predictable and easy to understand. This time, though, I’m looking at a wandering jet stream and a big, nasty, slooooow moving front that bisects the USA.  Then we have some sorta cloud cover in the Gulf that’s moving towards the Florida panhandle. Oh, and yeah, yeah, I’m studying for the instrument exam so don’t go there! Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

ya know…spam on rye ain’t half bad but i prefer baloney. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Guy Well put. Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

Wataugan Walt: <<ya know…spam on rye ain’t half bad but i prefer baloney. Used to eat it on crackers in the Panama jungle.  Wasn’t bad. Then I was introduced to Vienna Sausage (pronounced – V eye-enna). Now, *that* is some bad shit.   They should call Spam (the unwanted postings/mail) Vienna Sausage.  It would have a helluva lot more meaning.  d;0) Dave L.

Response:

Bit pointless discussing the definition of spam on this NG. However I dont think you will find many who will agree with you especially as far as Bill Kiene is concerned.  And even if he did post a discreet ad, which is a moot point in any case, I prefer that  to someone posting spurious complaints. I may not be able to define spam very accurately, and superfluous anyway as Guy already did a great job of doing so, but I certainly can recognise bullshit when I see it. I liked the bits about Baloney and Vienna sausage as well. I just wish you guys wouldnt choose such hard words to rhyme is all !! Vienna sausage, baloney or spam, to define is a terrible jam, bullshit is easy, it makes you feel queasy, and puts you in need of a dram. So you reckon Bill placed an ad, and you think that that is quite bad, but he gave us some news, and interesting views, complaining at that is just sad. Now Bill is cleverer than most, he just ignored your daft post, he wasnt offended, and was stoutly defended, by the stalwart Roffian host. Mr. Nospam you better cop out, Bill has got far more clout, You never will win, complaining at him, so be a nice guy, leave it out ! Write us a post about flies, perhaps your favourite ties ? or rods reels or lines, but please no more whines, about where to get the best buys. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Wataugan Walt: <<ya know…spam on rye ain’t half bad but i prefer baloney. Used to eat it on crackers in the Panama jungle.  Wasn’t bad. Then I was introduced to Vienna Sausage (pronounced – V eye-enna). Now, *that* is some bad shit.   They should call Spam (the unwanted postings/mail) Vienna Sausage.  It would have a helluva lot more meaning.  d;0) Dave L.

Vienna weenies are typically serverd at wedding receptions here in GA, but then it’s all family<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Hi: I, too, want to join the list of those who have very nicely differentiated between crap and quality.  Spam is crap, Bill Kiene is quality.  Like almost all of you, I first got to know Bill through his helpful answers on the ng.  In fact, I would always tell my friends that although Bill made no bones about his owning a flyshop, he was a great resource without promoting his business.  Anyway, with the costs involved in our sport, who minds getting an occasional heads-up about how to save money? Furthermore, when I couldn’t get my regular trip to Belize going for next year, and decided to go to heaven (read Christmas Island), I called Bill and signed up for one of his trips.  Why?  Although I live in NJ, I could have just contacted Frontier. But I wanted to say thanks to Bill for all his help. Adam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill Kiene is an unqualified asset to ROFF. : Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam. : : Blech. JonCook. — Fishermen kill fish. This is who we are.

Response:

Vienna weenies are typically serverd at wedding receptions here in GA, but then it’s all family<g. — Charlie…

ahh, a good ole cracker weddin’ with fiddles and some paint removin’ –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Just I’d add my 2 cents worth about Bill Kiene and his shop. I’m a sales rep in the fly fishing industry and call on Bill’s shop in Sacramento.  Bill’s shop is definitely in the top 3 shops in the CA,AZ,NV territory.  On top of that, he is one of the most, if not THE most enjoyable people to deal with.  I’m sure he would welcome your calls for help or advice. Regards, Wes Chormicle

Response:

Just I’d add my 2 cents worth about Bill Kiene and his shop.

I’ll just say that I think Bill is one of the top five posters on this site. His advice is always balanced and on the mark. He has never given up on this ng despite the flame wars and the infinite c&r debate; in his quiet determined way he just continued to dispense solid information. Ralph H

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just I’d add my 2 cents worth about Bill Kiene and his shop. I’ll just say that I think Bill is one of the top five posters on this site. His advice is always balanced and on the mark. He has never given up on this ng despite the flame wars and the infinite c&r debate; in his quiet determined way he just continued to dispense solid information. Ralph H

My sentiments also….. –Walt

Response:

As I have mentioned in previous posts, lots of fly fishing products have been altered or discontinued. This is a great time to get that new rod, reel, waders, pontoon boat, etc that you have been looking for. Much of this equipment is great stuff at great prices. Check you local fly tackle retailer or the internet for bargains. We have just purchased a ‘ton’ of discontinued fly rods from the Powell Rod Company. These are all ‘98 model rods that are being replaced by total redesigned new generation 1999 fly rods at the new Powell Rod plant in Sacramento, CA. Take a look at out web site for a complete list of these great rods at 50% off of retail prices. (www.kiene.com) Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

You may also want to check the following website www.bennettspring.com . Tight Lines Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I have mentioned in previous posts, lots of fly fishing products have been altered or discontinued. This is a great time to get that new rod, reel, waders, pontoon boat, etc that you have been looking for. Much of this equipment is great stuff at great prices. Check you local fly tackle retailer or the internet for bargains. We have just purchased a ‘ton’ of discontinued fly rods from the Powell Rod Company. These are all ‘98 model rods that are being replaced by total redesigned new generation 1999 fly rods at the new Powell Rod plant in Sacramento, CA. Take a look at out web site for a complete list of these great rods at 50% off of retail prices. (www.kiene.com) Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam. Blech.

Response:

Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam. Blech.

Bill Kiene is a frequent and very knowledgeable contributor to ROFF. I always read his posts because they are likely to contain something very interesting. I’ve been to his shop in Sacramento. It’s a very good shop, and his employees were quite helpful. I don’t think this rises to the level of spam. Bill made a suggestion that now is the time to look for cheap discontinued equipment, wherever you like to shop. He clearly know what he’s talking about. That’s a suggestion many people can take advantage of. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Bill Kiene is a frequent and very knowledgeable contributor to ROFF. I always read his posts because they are likely to contain something very interesting. I’ve been to his shop in Sacramento. It’s a very good shop, and his employees were quite helpful. I don’t think this rises to the level of spam. Bill made a suggestion that now is the time to look for cheap discontinued equipment, wherever you like to shop. He clearly know what he’s talking about. That’s a suggestion many people can take advantage of.

I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve never been to Bill’s shop (obviously, living on another continent), but I value his contributions to ROFF, and he is definitely not spamming. On a side note, I think Bill does an excellent job of combining his business with usenet. Posting insightful articles combined with subtle and relevant only mention of his business, yet never attempting to hide the fact that he runs a flyfishing busniess, and taking great care to address the subject at hand and not simply advertising, is the only way to do it. Usenet presence is, IMO, also a reasonable accurate predictor of customer satisfaction. If Bill ripped people off for a living, it’ll be all over ROFF. I’d be happy to do business with Bill. Btw, my local dealer here in Norway has had a 50% discount on 1998 Powell rods for a few months now. Still don’t want one of those soft sticks  :-) — Christian Figenschou – http://figen.com

Response:

I third that notion — IMHO, Bill Kiene is a very valuable resource for this NG.  I know he’s answered a ton of my questions. I always look forward to reading his posts. Sid in Seattle

Response:

Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam.

Bill Kiene is a valuable contributor to ROFF. I read his excellent posts carefully as he obviously knows exactly what he is talking about and how to explain it. His insights into some products and his recommendations are of considerable value, and he is as unbiased about various products as it is possible to be as far as I can see. It is unlikely that I will ever visit his shop, it is a bit too far away, which is a shame, as I assume from his posts that it must be quite excellent.  He has never made a secret of the fact that he runs a fly fishing related business, and the little bit of advertising he does is always discrete and his posts always on topic.  I do not think many on ROFF would consider this SPAM.  Just as a matter of interest Mr.Nospam, when can we expect a valuable contribution on ROFF from you ? Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam.

I too have found Mr. Kiene’s posts to be accurate, to the point, and informative. Few of us will ever patronize his shop, and if he occasionally mentions his business on ROFF, I have absolutely no problem with it. George Adams

Response:

Bill Kiene is a valuable contributor to ROFF.

I’ll add my voice to the chorus too Mike. I look for Bill’s posts. He’s worth reading. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach, Florida "The beach? Only poor people go to the beach!  The truly impoverished own boats." – Capt. Gary to Ms. Dawn

Response:

I agree wholeheartedly!!!! Bill keane has been of great help to newbies and oldies alike and I feel that he is simply passing on information and not trying to sell a product here people might want to be looking for new and then in the caseof us newbies who dont even have a rod what’s wrong with some advice from a seasoned store owner with some experience?? Keep it up Bill I am on your side. Pierre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill Kiene is a frequent and very knowledgeable contributor to ROFF. I always read his posts because they are likely to contain something very interesting. I’ve been to his shop in Sacramento. It’s a very good shop, and his employees were quite helpful. I don’t think this rises to the level of spam. Bill made a suggestion that now is the time to look for cheap discontinued equipment, wherever you like to shop. He clearly know what he’s talking about. That’s a suggestion many people can take advantage of. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I just wanted to add that my friend bought me a Redington that I could have never of afforded when it Florida with a "fall closeout"deal. The same rod selling in Canada I could have never afforded believe me and yet when he purchased it as a gift in US dollars it was a steal even with the exchange rate! Nope be glad to hear of close out deals especially with people like Bill Pierre

Response:

Nope.  He ran an ad.  It was spam. Incidentally a friend of mine bought one of Kiene’s discontinued "new" rods and it came with a scratched up blank and the wrong tube/sock. So be careful and ask for all the details before buying.  You get what you pay for and there isn’t always full disclosure.  Not just Bill’s shop but I’ve heard horror stories from some of the other online discounters too.  If Bill wants to post here and help folks out, that’s admirable but to sneak in a commercial ad when they aren’t allowed only damages his reputation IMHO.  Kind of like the Bill Clinton excuse.  As long as you are a good President it’s ok to break the law when it suits you. Well that’s why we have a free country.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  You don’t have to agree.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope.  He ran an ad.  It was spam. Incidentally a friend of mine bought one of Kiene’s discontinued "new" rods and it came with a scratched up blank and the wrong tube/sock. So be careful and ask for all the details before buying.  You get what you pay for and there isn’t always full disclosure.  Not just Bill’s shop but I’ve heard horror stories from some of the other online discounters too.  If Bill wants to post here and help folks out, that’s admirable but to sneak in a commercial ad when they aren’t allowed only damages his reputation IMHO.  Kind of like the Bill Clinton excuse.  As long as you are a good President it’s ok to break the law when it suits you. Well that’s why we have a free country.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  You don’t have to agree.

Well, my opinion is that your opinion sucks. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Sorry, not only are you in the minority, you don’t seem to know the definition of spam: "There are two main types of spam, and they have different effects on Internet users. Cancellable Usenet spam is a single message sent to 20 or more Usenet newsgroups. (Through longexperience, Usenet users have found that any message posted to so many newsgroups is often not relevant to most or all of them.) Usenet spam is aimed at "lurkers", people who read newsgroups but rarely or never post and give their address away. Usenet spam robs users of the utility of the newsgroups by overwhelming them with a barrage of advertising or other irrelevant posts. Furthermore, Usenet spam subverts the ability of system administrators and owners to manage the topics they accept on their systems. Email spam targets individual users with direct mail messages. Email spam lists are often created by scanning Usenet postings, stealing Internet mailing lists, or searching the Web for addresses. Email spams typically cost users money out-of-pocket to receive. Many people – anyone with measured phone service – read or receive their mail while the meter is running, so to speak. Spam costs them additional money. On top of that, it costs money for ISPs and online services to transmit spam, and these costs are transmitted directly to subscribers. http://spam.abuse.net/whatisspam.html Nope.  He ran an ad.  It was spam. Incidentally a friend of mine bought one of Kiene’s discontinued "new" rods and it came with a scratched up blank and the wrong tube/sock.

Did you give the shop an opportunity to correct the problem? So be careful and ask for all the details before buying.  You get what you pay for and there isn’t always full disclosure.  Not just Bill’s shop but I’ve heard horror stories from some of the other online discounters

I don’t think you can call Kiene’s and ‘online discounter’ too.  If Bill wants to post here and help folks out, that’s admirable but to sneak in a commercial ad when they aren’t allowed only damages

Please quote the document which says that such posts are not allowed opinion.  You don’t have to agree.

You’re right.

Response:

Question:

Howell Raines’ great book "Fly Fishing the Midlife Crisis" is on sale for only $5.99 at www.bargainbookwarehouse.com. In the stores it sells for $22. I don’t think they have any other fishing books.

Response:

"Fly Fishing Through the Midlife Crisis" I agree that it is an excellent read, and I’m not even at mid-life yet…Clint – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howell Raines’ great book "Fly Fishing the Midlife Crisis" is on sale for only $5.99 at www.bargainbookwarehouse.com. In the stores it sells for $22. I don’t think they have any other fishing books.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-  Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.  Are you just using a regular pull scales or what?  And the Dai Rikki comment I also don’t agree solidly with, but I don’t want to argue this with you because I don’t know what your controls are and the fact the IGFA specifies along with a breaking +/- % centage that there are more than one mono product(s) that breaks EXACTLY where they should and at EXACTLY the same breaking points in percentages in order to set "World Recognized IGFA Records".  MAXIMA is one such product along with Andre, Trileen, etc.  This is what makes your "most consistant comment" void (or dubious)and really, frankly biased in the face of real (already established) scientific facts compared to our and other scientific laboratory tests which have been conducted by major monofiliment companies.  Yet, I am pleased you are getting into this field and that your interests are so strong.  I hope you continue it, but I think you should ‘rethink’ your approach and possibly revisit your testing equipment and/or procedures.  Test should be run both dry and wet and off the same spool stock or batch.  Etc, etc.  But I find serious disagreement with your percentages.  Our recent tests with Knot-Perfect Knot Lube certainly changes the entire realm of how knots should behave and function.  For true uniformity, this product will definately change test results . . . and all "CONSISTANTLY for the Better".  I will send you some for your testing as a sponsor and supporter in your work, if you like.  Just need a mailing address Ralph.   Mr. G.

Response:

Hi George-  Your letter is responding to Ralph H, not me, Ralph Cutter. Non-the-less I found your post amusing, and left me with a few questions: This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known. . . Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing. . .  It means consistant breaking

or parting percentages every time.    I’m curious as to why you chose Maxima. Of ALL the lines we have tested it is the most inconsistent. The diameter, color and strength vary greatly from spool to spool and we’ve noted up to .02 differences in the same spool. This is an observation made by several different line testers.   Maxima is an old product. Over the past decade Polymer technologies have advanced almost as fast as computers. My old Kaypro was fine in its time, but in the case of plastics and computers newer is better. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  

   That is why we employed a polymer chemist to help us with our testing parameters. Much of the actual testing was done by an engineer with thirty years of stress analysis at Lockheed and Kaiser. I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.

Please share these with us. I was also amused by your previous post stating saying your knot glue was a new and revoltionary concept that could change the face of flyfishing. Forty years ago Herter’s sold a glue that was guaranteed to make monolfilament knots 100 percent. When nylon was introduced, many knot glue products were sold to help people with this new slippery material. A good product probably; revolutionary, hardly. I agree fully with the concept of your glue. ZAP A GAP and PVC cement do the same. Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio.

Easy for you, Tim to ponder Tony’s mating habits when your mouth has obviously been surgically attached to his fat ass <G. For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing…

For the record I *don’t* have a tube and would never buy one (come fishing with me, Tim, and you’ll see how I tie knots). My post was in response to Gades telling George to stop posting, as if this were something Gades has the power to do. (Note to Gades: I got your big, bad hate mail, just as other people warned me I would. Apparently you’re becoming famous for this sort of thing. Very scary, but don’t flatter yourself…I would never actually email you).   No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot.

Don’t look at me, you’re the one who bought it. Spinolio

Response:

Hi Rick-   The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.   -Ralph

Ralph, I notice you have a web site. Maybe you could put your results up there (so you don’t have dozens of us requesting copies in the mail). Thanks for the informative posts. Jim Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com /v/                            /v/

– Opinions expressed are my own, and not those of my employer.

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Great .sig file Anglerboy !.  You gotta love it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

Let me know when you come up with one. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.

I would only choose a tube of knot-goop over your company… better conversation. It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish.

Yeesh… ya really got me with that one, Tony. Same to you, only double! Ha! I’ve been to your masturbatory web site… are you the fat, ugly cosksucker holding the dead fish or is that your Orvis-endorsed guide. Spinolio

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? TimW Halfordian Golfer

As you can tell from the way these threads are unspooling, the answer to that question is still tied up in debate.  If I understand these tests correctly, we should all start using distilled water and George’s goop — they’ll make our knots so strong we’ll be uprooting trees every time we try to yank a fly free from a limb. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   (much blather snipped)   Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test   that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would   bother with such a product streamside.   Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t   imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside   or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.   Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process.

.. hmmm sounds interesting Mr Gades. Based on your CV (checked out that web site you advertise) this is something you know a thing or two about. Sometime maybe you’ll take a break from being crabby and give us a demo! 8^) Ralph H (just a simple dip shit) " … the sabbath rang slowly in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill" " One man free to love his minute   in the realms of flesh and sun   breaks down more pain than ages   of humane law or lawyers can." Leonard Cohen, " Crying, Come Back, Hero"

Response:

Hi Jon-   We found that as monofilament soaks up water it becomes increasingly vulnerable to cutting itself with tight radius knots (mono loop and wind knots). Clinching type knots (Uni-knot) actually often became a bit stronger, possibly because the swelling of the monofilament created a tighter grip.    When developing testing parameters we put knotted lines in water and tested knots at 5 minute intervals. After about 30 minutes the changes were no longer noticable. For the hell of it we let the lines soak for an additional 15 minutes simply to be sure they were soaked to capacity.    The IGFA also soaks lines before subjecting them to class rating tests.    -Ralph Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

  If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? Must be naught tests. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

If Tony and Spinolio got married they’d have offspring named Toniolio. Whydoncha relax a notch swatson ? For the record, I have a tube of George’s knot-goop *and* I agree with Tony…noone I know would fool with it astream…a little spit-tle do ya…it snot that big of thing… No good will become the fellow that needs lubricant to tie a knot. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Right on! It’s about time somebody called-out this Gades character. I’ve yet to read a post where he didn’t come off as being pompous and rude.

Response:

Hi Rick-    The Orvis Knot and the Mono loop knot tested virtually the same. E mail me your postal address and I’ll send you more data.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com  /v/                             /v/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. , While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

RALPH, you are not a dipshit.  Christ.  Loosen up.  What you should do is reread every sentence in my answer carefully without putting words in my mouth.  Re-review the part about the IGFA and think a bit.  What I say is based on sound facts.  If you want to call someone a liar, than you should but don’t count me in on your train-of-logic because it is also incorrect.  As far as challenges are concerned regarding KNOT-PERFECT, I will say this Ralph.  I will challenge anyone in the world not to agree that Knot-Perfect, (WATCH MY WORDS!) will make any brand of tippet/leader material (KNOT FOR KNOT) a more consistant breaking knot for THAT MATERIAL.  Understand? For instance, a batch or spool of 2# test may break variously with ONE KNOT but once you use KNOT-PERFECT on that same knot each time its tied, that knot will break more consistantly AT THE SAME POUNDAGE than with any other product in the world. What this means Ralph is this.  You can train yourself with two pound test and with the same brand of mono used every time to sense or KNOW how hard to fight and pull on a fish before that brand and knot will break.  This comes with experience.  It is not learned over-night. This is why I always fish with Maxima because I have a lifetime of fishing experience with this ONE BRAND.  Every knot I tie in it is known.  A blood knot will break at a different percentage than another. Etc.  However, my friend; there are things that KNOT-PERFECT does inside a knot and too the monofiliment that no other product in the world can do.  Now, this statement is about as bold as you can do, but lets face it.  I know what the hell I’m doing.  I haven’t spend years in my chemistry lab just swatting flies on the walls.  The point is, KNOT-PERFECT takes fishermen in all catagories that are knot-perfect and makes them (you guessed it) PERFECT!  The knots aren’t burnt.  The knots are no longer chaffed or cracked under pressure, and every knot squeezes down (for THAT PARTICULAR KNOT) around where the main tippet stem enters the knot EXACTLY THE SAME AND UNDER THE SAME PRESSURE TIME AND TIME AGAIN.  This means what?  It means consistant breaking or parting percentages every time. So, if you are tying a blood-knot all the time, for each poundage at its weakest point . . . you have dialed in a confidence level never before dreamed or possible before.  A 2.1 # test tippet in a blood-knot will break (for example) at exactly 1.9 LBS. time and time again, without exception.  This has never been possible before in the entire history of fishing.  Any kind of fishing, Ralph. A breaking scale does not a scientist make.  I still do not know what kind of scales are used or the testing parimeters.  In fact, none of us do.  The variables are massive from what we read compared to our lab tests.  I still will not compound an arguement or difference of opinion but what I am saying is that the test results posted are ‘very general.’ They are general because you do not know the material diameters, the length of the male verses the female side or; the cope vs the drag side or put another way, the length of the bottom tippet verses the top? Were identical diameters used or was a two pound test tippet attached to a four pound test piece?  I also know that there are much more consistant breaking and more reliable tippet materials than those bragged about.  And I mean, by a long shot, Ralph. And no.  I don’t know everything.  I’m no smart-ass, but I’m not stupid either.  I’ve done a lot of research work in this industry Ralph and I’m not here belittle anyone.  But I am here to freely disagree when I know I’m right. I’ll leave it at that and you all can have this thread.  I’m sorry I butted in where I wasn’t wanted. Have a nice season. Mr. G. POST SCRIPT:  I was just asked what I use all the time and of course it is Maxima.  I cannot stand tippet material that snake and curl up like D.Reek/etc. does once you catch a fish and stretch it.  No Sir.  Maxima doesn’t do this and I do not like hard, slick surfaced tippet material for much the same reasons.  When I die and they bury me, they can put a spool of Maxima in my shirt pocket so I won’t run out of it in heaven. Everyone.

Response:

If they’re knot tests, then what are they ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G. Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. ,

While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried – at least partially – by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test? None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative. AND! George seems to have thrown down a gauntlet regarding the effectiveness of his knot goop. I for one would be fascinated by an independent before and after sort of comparison. Ralph H (just a simple dipshit 8^) ) "…      the sabbath rang slowly      in the pebbles of the holy streams!" Dylan Thomas, "Fern Hill"

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    (much blather snipped)     Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test     that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would     bother with such a product streamside.    Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t    imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside    or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down.    Spinolio It is extremely easy to see why you, based on your cumulative "contibutions" to date, would be intimidated by posts that demonstrate an active thought process. As for the streamside choice, I applaud your choosing knot-goop.  It is consistent with the fact that you don’t actually fish. _pompously_ yours,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.

Great post!!   I was wondering, you mention that the Orvis knot was "far short of the Uni-knot" but you didn’t give a percentage.  I tend to like the Orvis knot because of it’s ease in tying and the thought that it was so strong. Also, I think a comparision of Wet to Dry Knot strenths would be very interesting.  Do you have that kind of data?   I have never considered the Duncan Loop to be a very strong knot but your data does not support this idea. Once agin, thanks for the information and keep up the good work. Rick Richard Padgett

Response:

(much blather snipped) Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside.

Considering the pompous and snotty nature of your posts, Tony, I can’t imagine anyone I know bothering with such a product as *you*, streamside or otherwise. Faced with a choice, George’s knot-goop wins hands down. Spinolio

Response:

..snip…. Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp.

…snip… Ralph, I am curious why you use 45 min. soaking. I can see wetting having one or more of several effects. 1) just surface coating which may affect surface tension or lubricity of the knots in some way and possibly affecting cinching or stress production in the knot and 2) interaction with the plastic polymer which would imply some sort of penetration into the plastic and a change of its physical characteristics. #1 would happen immediately upon wetting and #2 may be time-dependent based on the permeability of the plastic. A grey-zone might occur if #1 was the main effect but the water required time to penetrate the knot. It would be easy to test by looking at change in breaking strength over time of a wet strand in the absence of a knot. Any comments? Just curious. Jon

Response:

  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Organization: Gehrke’s Gink/Xink Fly Fishing Products Company   DEAR RALPH:  I disagree with the majority of your tests.   Mr. G.

Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he lied. Quote another test, its methods and results, and to make it useful to us, skip using that knot-goop because nobody is going to bother using such a product in the real world. A trilene knot (which I primarily use) has been shown repeatedly to have a breaking strength of 100%.  The 6x blood knot ranks in around 70%.  The perfection loop ranks in around 90-100%.  These results I’ve seen repeatedly.  These are the same results found by Mr. Cutter. I see no reason to disagree. Please don’t waste our time by quoting the results of some knot test that used your knot-liquid.  It is of no use since nobody I know would bother with such a product streamside. cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.

But of course.  This is the one I tie best.  Hey, if you have good eyes, they also make a half-way decent strike indicator!  :-)   -Ralph

Cheers, and tight lines. -Mark PS:  ’Love your book, Ralph.  It should be required reading for Sierra trout anglers.  Keep up the good work.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mr. Cutter clearly laid out the results of clearly explained experiments. There is nothing to "disagree" with unless you are claiming that he While I found the info interesting it has to be noted that no experiment is valid beyond the parameters of it’s design. For example who fishes in distilled water? Who soaks their leader in water for 45 minutes and why was that time period chosen (was it chosen arbitrarily?) Leaders are in the water usually for no more than a few minutes and then dried,at least partially by casting. Do we know the extent of saturation of a typical leader on an average day? What was the precise breaking strain of the mono before the knot was tied? What was the breaking strain of the knot? what was the degree of confidence in the test?

Hey dip…., You bring up some very valid points.  I don’t think the soaking time is important as long as the interval is consistant – the main thing is the line was wet (something I didn’t do when I performed a series of breaking tests). None the less the relative breaking strains of the knots are informative.

Yep, on a relative basis it is good information to know.  Regardless of what knot you use, I find one of the most important things is to make sure the knot is snugged up tight to prevent it from cutting into its’ self and breaking. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

Hi Larry-    Most knot strength tests are done with dry monofilament that is tied and tested while dry. This results in a meaningless number for anglers. As an example: The highly touted Orvis and monofilament loop knots are very strong when dry but fall far short of the uni-knot (Duncan knot) after the monofilament becomes wet.    Our strain gauge device (calibrated to .001 lbs) has no opinions and gives us the following results on knots tied with dry monofilament that are then soaked in distilled water for 45 minutes at room temp. The following percentages are the average of 20 knots tied from three different spools of factory fresh 3x Dai Rikki Velvet. Velvet was used because it has the most consistant breaking factor of any tippet material we have tested.    Loop Knots:    Bimini-100 percent, Uni knot- 96 percent, Monofilament loop- 87 percent, Perfection- 85 percent, 2X surgeons- 68 percent, 4X surgeons- 68 percent, 6X surgeons-81 percent, 7X surgeons-73 percent.    FYI: the best tippet to fly loop is the Uni knot at 96 percent.         the best tippet to fly non-loop is the Trilene knot at 100 percent.         the best mono to mono connection is the 6x blood knot at 68 percent.         the despised wind knot tests at a relatively strong 87 percent.   -Ralph

Response:

Question:

Hey all – I am just starting fly fishing.  If you were starting – and were still in college – what would you buy to start out with?

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Hey all – I am just starting fly fishing.  If you were starting – and were still in college – what would you buy to start out with?

Several manufacturers have "kits" available.  These kits include a good quality rod, reel, line, and other stuff.  This other stuff may include leader, tippet, some flies, instruction manual, and FFishing guide.   These manufacturers include Cortland, Sage, Fenwick, St Croix, Loomis, Orvis and others.  Many can be purchased for under $100, others under $150.  The greater the price (in some cases) the better the rod.  These kits can be purchased ad fly shops in your area or from fly fishing catalogs.  Welcome to a great new world.  Remember, in Fly Fishing, the difference between want and need is irrelevant.

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Hey all – I am just starting fly fishing.  If you were starting – and were still in college – what would you buy to start out with?

Find a good fly shop, especially one that will deal in trade-ins and listen closely to what they tell you and watch what they show you. To tell if its a good shop – hang arouns a little, if every customer comming in knows the owner/clerk/guide – you’ve found one.  No shops around?  Find a news shop and pick up a copy of American Angler or Fly Fisherman, and call some of the advertisers.  Research until you are comfortable.   Or buy a RedStart, Sage DS, or a Cortland 444 "Just add water kit" jg

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Hey all – I am just starting fly fishing.  If you were starting – and were still in college – what would you buy to start out with?

Hi If I were just starting out and wanted to know a little about the sport before I started buying stuff (which can be quite expensive).  Call the Federation of Fly Fishers and request their educational booklets.  They are $2.00 each plus S&H.  I recommend the following four: Introduction to Fly Fishing Introduction to Fly Tying Beginning Entomology Learning to Fly Cast Good luck and Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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I started out 20 years ago with a k-mart special (though I did get a better DT fly line for it). Still occasionally use that old rod, taught my kids, and friends who wanted to try fly fishing with it. I would suspect that’s about as an inexpensive way as possable to start out. Lolo Mt.

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Hey all – I am just starting fly fishing.  If you were starting – and were still in college – what would you buy to start out with?

Get the Bass Pro Shops catalog that has white river fly fishing in it call 800-227-7776 and ask for it. Pick out the best rod setup you can afford and then go buy Lefty Krey’s casting method at a book store. Read and practice, practice and read, soon you will hit what you aim at then you are ready to go to the stream. Bryant, BJC’s Custom Rod & Tackle

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: What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end : lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks   There are differences when you compare these two lines. The Cortland 444 is the industry standard fly line. It is offered in many more types and configurations than the 333. The 333 is the predecessor to the 444. The 444 is more supple, longer lasting, and slick than the 333. It also comes with a one year warrenty against failure. My experience with Cortland is that any 444 line returned will be replaced for free. This happened one year at the shop where we had many customers come back with defective lines. We had instructions from Cortland to take back all lines at that time. Their testing showed that they had a bad batch!   There is also a higher performance level with the more expensive lines. I find that they float higher and are easier to cast. The best line Cortland currently has is the 444 LazerLine. It has a textered finish. This line is the most supple, easiest mending, and farthest shooting line of any "general purpose" trout line I have used. Both 333 and 444 are good lines Jon Porter

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What are the pros and cons of the expensive fly lines vs. the lower end lines.  For example the Cortland 444 lazer vs the 333 lines.  Thanks

In my opinion there aren’t many differences between lines that make a huge difference.  Higher priced lines are usually made from better materials(tougher, stronger, self lubricating, Uv resistant, etc.) but the taper really isn’t a measure of "quality".  It all depends on your casting style and requirements.  Some line may better match your technique and give better results (i.e. some people may perfere the same line in double taper vs. weight forward or vice versa).  Your fishing requirements (if they are very specific)  may demand that you must spend the extra money for a higher   end line but that is sometimes the nature of the beast!  Good luck,                         Joshua Haddock

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Hi.  I am new to fishing but just purchased a rod and spin outfit to take on a backpacking/rock climbing trip to the Big Sandy area in the southern Wind River Mountains in Wyoming.  The lakes where we’ll be (Clear Lake and Deep Lake near Mt. Haystack, most likely) are supposedly full of brook trout, and we hope to catch some for a couple of nice dinners (I’ll get my partner to pack in the wine by marking it "fuel", I suppose!).  I have been told that any fly resembling a mosquito (Irresistible Adams was suggested as a first choice, as well as Wooly Worms and Wooly Buggers) would work well, though I don’t know what hook size would be appropriate. I really don’t know mcuh about catching a fish.  Some of the questions I have are: Is this information in a FAQ I haven’t found? Which would work best? How does one use a spin outfit to cast with flies?   Can I just put on a bubble or a piece of shot and cast like that? Would I be better off just using a small spinner or jig? The last few days here in New Haven, Connecticut have been beautiful.  We spent yesterday rock climbing at the Shawangunks, New York.  I hope the days are fine in your neck of the woods! Thanks for any help.  Please email any responses since I don’t get to check newsgroups too often. Much obliged, Rene’ Renteria

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I will be in Italy for 3 weeks. Venice, Rome, Florence. Any thoughts?

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There was an article in the Travel section of the New York Times just 2 or 3 weeks ago about fly fihsing (and eating) your way through Italy.  It was very informative about working your way through the postal system to get local licenses.  I’d look there.

-0400 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I will be in Italy for 3 weeks. Venice, Rome, Florence. Any thoughts?

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I have spent a fair amount of time in Italy, and despite fact I’m a lifetime flyfishing addict, I wouldn’t take time to flyfish.  I have seen a lot of tempting streams and rivers, but I’m not sure the fishing would be good (trout rarely shows up on the menu).  Pick up a good book on wine country and really enjoy Italy!!!! Tight Lines IBFISHN

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Don’t drink the Water.

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| in Kennett Square, south of Philadelphia, in mid-June and suggests I | come with her and consider fly fishing (for trout or possibly for | shad) in the area for the week.  I would appreciate information about | where, when, with what flys, and what I am liable to be able to catch | within a 1-2 hours drive from there. Jim, Some additions to Bruce Pencek’s already comprehensive response. The Yellow Breeches near the Allenbury resort in  Carlisle, PA should still have good sulpher action in mid-june. Also, there’s a decent cahill on the Little Lehigh River up near Allentown, PA. Both would be about 1.5-2.5 hours drive from where you’ll be. A 4 hour drive would get you up to the State College, PA area with plenty of top-notch spring creeks and freestoners to choose from, Fred   —         Fred L. Templin

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in Kennett Square, south of Philadelphia, in mid-June and suggests I come with her and consider fly fishing (for trout or possibly for shad) in the area for the week.  I would appreciate information about where, when, with what flys, and what I am liable to be able to catch within a 1-2 hours drive from there. Path: aldebaran!comly  My alternative would be to stay home in northern NY State (Schenectady) and fish in NYS or VT – comparisons between this option and the PA one would also be appreciated.         — Jim Comly Dr. James B. Comly (Jim); Physicist, Artificial Intelligence GE Corporate R&D, 1 River Road, Schenectady, NY 12301

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in Kennett Square, south of Philadelphia, in mid-June and suggests I come with her and consider fly fishing (for trout or possibly for shad) in the area for the week.  I would appreciate information about where, when, with what flys, and what I am liable to be able to catch within a 1-2 hours drive from there. Path: aldebaran!comly

Well, you’d be within two hours of the PA limestoners near CArlisle… Nearer to Kennett Square you’d still have some options, though much more put-and-take: Ridley Creek in Ridley Creek St Park near Media (my home town) has a flies-only stretch; check with the Sporting Gentleman fly shop in Media or Eyler’s in Bryn Mawr.  Valley Creek, in Valley Forge State Park, used to have a no-kill stretch with stream-bred browns, and it still might.  The Brandywine is the water nearest Kennett, but it’s never been much of a trout stream; bass are a better bet, and I think the PS bass season opens around the time of your trip. (Shad are likely to be unavailable; by mid-June they’ve ususally been headed back to sea from the Upper Delaware, which is a lot further upriver than the Brandywine.) Other possibilities in that region: French Creek around French Creek State Park and Tulpehocken near Reading (the Factory Outlet Capital of America).  Hope these recollections help: I’ve been consigned to the lower left corner of the country for half a dozen years, and my memory had faded. My alternative would be to stay home in northern NY State (Schenectady) and fish in NYS or VT – comparisons between this option and the PA one would also be appreciated.

What kind of fishing do you prefer: the spring creeks in PA (as well as the freestones) are in a lot flatter, pastoral-to-suburban setting, with a lot more people nearby.  The Letort (etc) and Tulpehocken can be exquisite technical fishing, and the sulphurs should be one.  And Longwood Gardens is neat.   But a couple of hours up the Northway from you, you have the Adirondacks (close to Green DRake time) and couple south, the Upper Delaware drainage in the Catskills.  The fishing there can be difficult, esp on the main Delaware, but not as challenging as the limestoners.  So I guess a lot depends on what else you’d want to do in addition to fishing…. BTW, when I lived in Vermont, I fished NY.   — Bruce Pencek    Political Science Dept, UNLV    Las Vegas, NV  89154-5029 "To him, all good things — trout as well as eternal salvation — come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy." -Norman Maclean

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