Question:

Do you think atheists are more likely than Judeo-Christians to abuse their elderly parents (on account of the fact that they don’t believe in God and therefore are not held to that ridiculous "honor thy father and mother" edict)?

No, I don’t. But I do think that different cultures often develop very different attitudes about animals and about how they should be treated. That’s pretty hard to deny. Cows are sacred in India. Pigs are "unclean" in Moslem and Jewish culture. Dogs are food items in Vietnam. Horses are food items in France. Japanese fishermen deliberately kill large numbers of dolphins. It goes on and on. These practices and attitudes may be consistent and uncontroversial within a culture. Problems arise, however, when different cultures interact. I think that’s what’s happening with the Amish puppy mills. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

TWIMC 1. Horse trading with Amish? Want to lose your shirt? . . . only a fool. . . . Thats just a fact and if anyone on this NG would like to test it with their own money, I will personally offer to make comforting cooing sounds when you return without your money and with 3 to 6 new assholes. 2. Yeah, they do have a different attitude toward animals: They are single minded farmers surviving with a minimum of technology in a corporate farming world. They have to pay their taxes like everyone else, and the have lots of kids to help get established. Land costs money. They do what they have to to survive and Im not going to pick at their sores. Earth to ROFF! Earth to ROFF! 3. Associating Amish run puppy mills with Amish people is a stretch? . . . is bigoted? What a crock. Maybe its a stretch if you don’t get around much. Steve is right. Try this one on: Is mentioning the leading involvement of young renegade Amish in several high profile Pennsylvania drug busts . . . bigoted? Or is it just that shit happens? See, young Amish men raise hell. Surprise. Sheesh! 4. What is so hard about understanding that the difference between bigotry and cultural objectivity has a broad band of gray running down the middle. Its not your simple-minded binary geek-friendly, male preferred "either or" call. Scheesh, fucken word weenies! 5. Just as an FYI item: There are some unflattering terms that Amish use for non-Amish. One is "English." What are some or the others? Dave Ideology sucks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California. There’s Amish folk in California?  :-) Joe F.

Response:

rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California. Ernie "rw" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets. That’s just fine with me. I have no problem with that at all. However, it seems to be having the perverse effect that the Amish have become major players in the puppy mill business, which supplies animals to pet shops. They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. The Amish certainly aren’t the only people in the puppy mill business, but they are major players. I realize that people who don’t care about dogs probably don’t give a shit, but it’s a sore point with me. It’s a very cruel business.

Response:

In standard ROFF form, I’m now being portrayed as "anti-Amish".

Not so fast my evil name-twin Nobody said you’re anti-Amish, did they? Your statements simply appear to present a somewhat stereotypical view of Amish beliefs, IMO. I’m not, of course. I’m anti-puppy-mill. It just happens that for historical and cultural reasons some Amish are very involved in the puppy mill business. That’s an easily verified fact.

It’s easily verified that there are Amish families involved in the puppy mill business. It’s NOT easily verified that they’re in that business because they’re Amish. There’s a HUGE difference between "some Amish people abuse animals" and "some people abuse animals because they’re Amish." It sounds as though you were somehow implying the latter. Do you think atheists are more likely than Judeo-Christians to abuse their elderly parents (on account of the fact that they don’t believe in God and therefore are not held to that ridiculous "honor thy father and mother" edict)? –Steve

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: … (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. … Stop your whining, Barnard. — Ken Fortenberry- can actually spell anti-Semite

<<<splork

Response:

rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California.

There’s Amish folk in California?  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Give him hell if you want, Bob, but beware, you may end up with a picture of Snoop Doggy Dog under your name on the ROFF Faces page.

  Oh, god, I’ve gone too far.  Anything but that!  I know I should have kept my opinions to myself.  Oh, crap.   It was really out of character for me to respond in such a manner and, normally, I wouldn’t.  But it did strike me that some stereotyping is acceptable and some isn’t.  I would never support a puppy mill business no matter who runs it.  If the Amish do indeed participate in the puppy mill business, I’m certainly not in favor of it.  I’ll bet this and many other topics will be discussed around the "campfire" on the SJ.  I’m going to be really, really nice to everyone so as to avoid any "mislabeling". Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Prehaps because they win a lot of races! Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price? An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R.

  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops?  This isn’t my job but since none of the regular PC cops stepped forward:   If someone on this group were to say, "blacks are lazy welfare bums, Mexicans are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Pollocks are dumb, southerners are in-bred hillbillies, asians are shifty, all male flight attendants are flamingly gay, Indians are drunken bums, eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks," the roff PC police would have jumped on them in a flash.  But —- I guess this is different. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

As for "puppy mills", ain’t never heard of one being run by the amish. They must be a lower order of amish located in Pennsylvania. (ducking here)

Go into google and search on "amish puppy mills". It’s appalling. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

<context snipped  Pollocks are dumb, <more snippage eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks,"

You got at least one of these right.  Pollocks (those inferior north atlantic cousins of the haddock that they try to sell as "schrod" when the cod are not biting…) are dumb as hell. –Stan (Polack first class)

Response:

  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops?  This isn’t my job but since none of the regular PC cops stepped forward:   If someone on this group were to say, "blacks are lazy welfare bums, Mexicans are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Pollocks are dumb, southerners are in-bred hillbillies, asians are shifty, all male flight attendants are flamingly gay, Indians are drunken bums, eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks," the roff PC police would have jumped on them in a flash.  But —- I guess this is different.

It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets. That’s just fine with me. I have no problem with that at all. However, it seems to be having the perverse effect that the Amish have become major players in the puppy mill business, which supplies animals to pet shops. They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. The Amish certainly aren’t the only people in the puppy mill business, but they are major players. I realize that people who don’t care about dogs probably don’t give a shit, but it’s a sore point with me. It’s a very cruel business. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops? … But —- I guess this is different.

Exactly. Some here ARE different and have proven themselves to be so thoroughly insufferable and egotistical that it’s not productive to waste any energy admonishing them about their ugly prejudices. Give him hell if you want, Bob, but beware, you may end up with a picture of Snoop Doggy Dog under your name on the ROFF Faces page. — Ken Fortenberry- "Porky Forty"

Response:

It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets… [snip] They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets.

RW, I found your puppy mills post to be enlightening. I learned something from you and I appreciate that. I’m much less inclined to purchase from a pet store should my kids ever talk me into having a pet. But, despite your explanation, I’m a bit uncomfortable with your Amish stereotype. As an example (and *only* as an illustrative example), try this on… "The Black culture teaches Black men that it’s OK to father children out of wedlock. Women are to be used for utilitarian purposes only and not to be kept as wives. They look at women as merely commodities, just another crop, even though children are born as a result." Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? If I were to suggest such a thing on this forum I would be ostracized and rightfully so. I’m not suggesting that you be ostracized, but rather that it’s not *because* they’re Amish that they’re doing something so despicable. –Steve

Response:

: It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion : teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and : not kept as pets. Hmm, for starters I don’t believe that, and even if the general gist is true, the two are not mutually exclusive. The Amish are people, just like us, and I cannot believe that many of them don’t get attached to their animals, especially since they interact with, and even depend on, them more than we do. FWIW, I’d much rather see an animal get used than stand in a pen every day or sit in a cramped dog run. I’ll bet you won’t see an Amish horse develop the "bad" habits that indicate psychological imbalance (i.e., pacing, cribbing, pawing, and other repetetive acts). The fact is, there is *way* more abuse by us "recreational" pet owners. : They look at the animals as merely : commodities, as just another "crop", This is simple stereotyping. Yes, I’ve no doubt that there are "bad apples" in the Amish communities, just as there are in ours. People are people. But "they" aren’t any worse than us, and in many ways they might even be better… JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets… [snip] They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. RW, I found your puppy mills post to be enlightening. I learned something from you and I appreciate that. I’m much less inclined to purchase from a pet store should my kids ever talk me into having a pet. But, despite your explanation, I’m a bit uncomfortable with your Amish stereotype. As an example (and *only* as an illustrative example), try this on… "The Black culture teaches Black men that it’s OK to father children out of wedlock. Women are to be used for utilitarian purposes only and not to be kept as wives. They look at women as merely commodities, just another crop, even though children are born as a result." Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? If I were to suggest such a thing on this forum I would be ostracized and rightfully so. I’m not suggesting that you be ostracized, but rather that it’s not *because* they’re Amish that they’re doing something so despicable.

Many stereotypes have an element of truth to them. For example, in the Middle Ages the Church forbade Christians from charging interest on loans, but Jews were under no such restriction. As a result, many Jews became moneylenders, thereby encurring the resentment of Christians who owed them money. So we get stereotypes like Shakespeare’s Shylock that strike many people as offensive (I think that’s a misreading of The Merchant of Venice), but the stereotype was based on a real cultural practice. (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. That would be funny.) The Amish puppy mills are similar, I think. According to the Amish religious tradition there’s nothing wrong with them, but dog fanciers don’t see it that way. They see a cruel business. I’d never say that all Amish are cruel to animals, but I do think that Amish religious beliefs allow some of them to do something (run puppy mills) that many people believe is wrong, and to do it with a clear conscience. In other words, they’re acting consistently within their own moral framework, but that framework is at odds with the morals of the larger society that they have to deal with. There are a lot of examples of these sorts of conflict between what different cultures think is moral — female circumcision in Africa, Japanese whaling, capital punishment in America (from a European point of view), etc. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

… (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. …

Stop your whining, Barnard. — Ken Fortenberry- can actually spell anti-Semite

Response:

In standard ROFF form, I’m now being portrayed as "anti-Amish". I’m not, of course. I’m anti-puppy-mill. It just happens that for historical and cultural reasons some Amish are very involved in the puppy mill business. That’s an easily verified fact. It’s kind of like saying that because someone doesn’t like diamonds he must be antisemitic. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Well shit!  That’ll be my last Amish joke.  I will take issue with you RW, on the matter of how amish folks treat their animals…with the exception of my 20+ yrs military and globe trotting out of Elkhart county, I have lived with these folks as my neighbors for most of my life.  They see *any* of their animals as a food source or work unit, even cats are used in the main to keep the rodents out of the grain. Therefore, especially in the case of horses, they are well trained and taken care of…who wants a sickly horse pulling the plow?  Of course, they use huge draft horses for the work, and sleek "trotters" for pulling the buggy. 20 miles from my house is a huge auction barn where they hold horse auctions every Friday, and folks come from miles around to trade with these rapscallions. As for "puppy mills", ain’t never heard of one being run by the amish. They must be a lower order of amish located in Pennsylvania. (ducking here) As to flyfishing, I’ve only witnessed one instance of that, and it was so funny I had to stop my own fishing and just watched.  This would-be flyflinger (in a small boat) would bring the rod clear back to horizontal, then with great force, bring it forward using a full overhead arm swing, to parallel with the water in front.  The resulting splash was something to behold!  Our bluegill population was safe from this guy. Frank (where’s my black hat?) Church

Response:

Because they dont see bloody monty roberts and his bad training techniques on the telly )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price? An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. Geeze. Way to let the air out of a good joke, steve…

Geez, I thought the C&R thing was at least a little comic relief. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R.

Geeze. Way to let the air out of a good joke, steve… /daytripper (Get laid or something. Soon. ;^)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church

The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

Joe joemit writes: One guy I know fished for his two week vacation and landed 114 landlocks. That’s not shabby anywhere I know of. Downriggers, leadcore or wire line are a must. Troll needlefish or small spoons and look for fish suspended over  water 80′ plus suspended from 40-5-0 feet (less in the early morning). Good luck if you get the chance to go. Let me know how you make out.

Not shabby?  Uhhhh, it is if you are posting to a fly fishing newsgroup.  <g Eighty feet deep?  Shit, I’ll be into my backing just to get the fly down that deep. I’d much rather fish streams and rivers in Maine and consistantly catch ouananiche in the two pound range, sometimes bigger, on dry flies and nymphs. Streamers work too. Dave LaCourse

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe joemit writes: One guy I know fished for his two week vacation and landed 114 landlocks. That’s not shabby anywhere I know of. Downriggers, leadcore or wire line are a must. Troll needlefish or small spoons and look for fish suspended over  water 80′ plus suspended from 40-5-0 feet (less in the early morning). Good luck if you get the chance to go. Let me know how you make out. Not shabby?  Uhhhh, it is if you are posting to a fly fishing newsgroup. <g Eighty feet deep?  Shit, I’ll be into my backing just to get the fly down that deep. I’d much rather fish streams and rivers in Maine and consistantly catch ouananiche in the two pound range, sometimes bigger, on dry flies and nymphs. Streamers work too. Dave LaCourse

… using the same technique

Response:

Paul Goodwin writes: Not shabby?  Uhhhh, it is if you are posting to a fly fishing newsgroup. <g Eighty feet deep?  Shit, I’ll be into my backing just to get the fly down that deep. I’d much rather fish streams and rivers in Maine and consistantly catch ouananiche in the two pound range, sometimes bigger, on dry flies and nymphs. Streamers work too. Dave LaCourse … using the same technique

LOL.  Yeah.  Fall off the X rock into the current and get dragged into the pond and you’ll *swear* the water is 80 foot deep. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Joe, thanks for the post, although it’s a bit out of place in a flyfishing group.  Hell, I love to fish the Quabbin, but 50 feet deep is still 40 feet deeper than I ever fish a flyline.  Flyfishing for landlocks?  I don’t think so.  Not even in the early season when they’re  up on top.  The only flyfishing I’ve done in the main res. is for the smallies in May when they come into the shallows. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t posted on this site since last winter as I’d rather be fishing than typing but I just had to take second and let any readers from New England know about the great landlock fishingwe’ve been having at Quabbin Reservoir in central Massachusetts. The cold wet summer we’ve had have kept the fish up and they’re suspending at 40-50 feet rather than 60+ as they do most years.<and cetera

Response:

Yankee fish? A local lake here in Nova Scotia has a native stock. But thanks for your effort ;^) — Jamie http://clik.to/flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "ouananiche" Spell it as it is pronounced please. um, let’s see…oh you a-nah neesh?  no?  well, what about wah nah nish?  not right, eh?  well, how about…oh the hell with it. goddam stupid yankee fish, anyways. wayno, a man with better things to do

Response:

Are they on top in the fall, winter or spring? Thanks. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I haven’t posted on this site since last winter as I’d rather be fishing than typing but I just had to take second and let any readers from New England know about the great landlock fishingwe’ve been having at Quabbin Reservoir in central Massachusetts. The cold wet summer we’ve had have kept the fish up and they’re suspending at 40-50 feet rather than 60+ as they do most years. The result has been some great fishing. Any trip will bring at least a couple salmon and many days produce 10 or more fish. A lot are small in the 1 1/2 pound class but enough are three pounds plus to make it interesting and a few six po8unders have been landed. A state fisheries biologist recently predicted the bigger fish 6 lb. + are in teh closed section of the reservoir over the really deep water fro thd summer but should begin moving into the fishable water in mid Sept. so things should get even better. One guy I know fished for his two week vacation and landed 114 landlocks. That’s not shabby anywhere I know of. Downriggers, leadcore or wire line are a must. Troll needlefish or small spoons and look for fish suspended over  water 80′ plus suspended from 40-5-0 feet (less in the early morning). Good luck if you get the chance to go. Let me know how you make out.

Response:

Jamie Heim: "ouananiche" Spell it as it is pronounced please.

I did:  "ouananiche". Dave LaCourse

Response:

Dave L. writes: Jamie Heim: "ouananiche" Spell it as it is pronounced please. I did:  "ouananiche". Dave LaCourse

Ooops!  Forgot.  I believe the word is northeast/Canadian Indian – Algonquin, Cree – and is pronouced: wa – na- neesh, with the emphasis on the last sylable. However, land locked salmon seems to work best in Maine.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

"ouananiche" Spell it as it is pronounced please.

        um, let’s see…oh you a-nah neesh?  no?  well, what about wah nah nish?  not right, eh?  well, how about…oh the hell with it. goddam stupid yankee fish, anyways. wayno, a man with better things to do

Response:

"ouananiche" Spell it as it is pronounced please. — Jamie http://clik.to/flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul Goodwin writes: Not shabby?  Uhhhh, it is if you are posting to a fly fishing newsgroup. <g Eighty feet deep?  Shit, I’ll be into my backing just to get the fly down that deep. I’d much rather fish streams and rivers in Maine and consistantly catch ouananiche in the two pound range, sometimes bigger, on dry flies and nymphs. Streamers work too. Dave LaCourse … using the same technique LOL.  Yeah.  Fall off the X rock into the current and get dragged into the pond and you’ll *swear* the water is 80 foot deep. Dave LaCourse

Response:

I haven’t posted on this site since last winter as I’d rather be fishing than typing but I just had to take second and let any readers from New England know about the great landlock fishingwe’ve been having at Quabbin Reservoir in central Massachusetts. The cold wet summer we’ve had have kept the fish up and they’re suspending at 40-50 feet rather than 60+ as they do most years. The result has been some great fishing. Any trip will bring at least a couple salmon and many days produce 10 or more fish. A lot are small in the 1 1/2 pound class but enough are three pounds plus to make it interesting and a few six po8unders have been landed. A state fisheries biologist recently predicted the bigger fish 6 lb. + are in teh closed section of the reservoir over the really deep water fro thd summer but should begin moving into the fishable water in mid Sept. so things should get even better. One guy I know fished for his two week vacation and landed 114 landlocks. That’s not shabby anywhere I know of. Downriggers, leadcore or wire line are a must. Troll needlefish or small spoons and look for fish suspended over  water 80′ plus suspended from 40-5-0 feet (less in the early morning). Good luck if you get the chance to go. Let me know how you make out.

Response:

Question:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area). … Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed…

I’ll confess to being part of the problem. We were in Taos for a week last October and found it a wonderful vacation spot both for me and my flyfishing and Kristine and her shopping/photography. I was able to find solitude, in October, the further I got from the "Enchanted Circle", FWIW. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area).  It always seemed to offer something for everyone…culture and restaurants for my wife, fishing and hiking for me.  I returned last week after an absence of 3 years and couldn’t believe the increase in fishing pressure and resulting reduction in fishing quality. Exhibit 1 — an small, alpine tailwater (maybe 60 cfm)with a nice population of cuts.  Catch and release.  Fished it three years ago, in the prime water on a WEEKEND, and saw one other rod all day.  Last week, on a Tuesday, had to scramble to find a stretch to fish.  At least 10 other rods on a 1.5 mile stretch. Exhibit 2 — a tiny mountain stream, 2 hour drive from anywhere. Walked in and got no hits.  Started moving quickly, and eventually ran into a fisherman.  I’d been fishing in his wake.  Walked another half mile, same problem.  Eventually had to drive a mile downstream, and walk another mile to get onto virgin water, then had a reasonable time. Unlike streams in places like Montana (or even the San Juan), the streams in North-Central NM are generally so small that they can’t support very much pressure.  Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed… Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

_______ I spent so much money today . . . buying the final Bastard Assembly Line Items, I don’t know how MUCH the Certified Check was for, but just the ink on it weighted 3 pounds.  (From what Gladys says)  The postage to send it Priority Mail cost her $22! I do know this.  Bastards are going to be worth every bit of $1800 – $2400 dollars right out of the starting blocks.  That I’m crazy enough to offer them for $300 as an introductory challenge to the world of fly fishing, does NOT mean I’m forced to hold these prices forever. Why don’t you guys move the conclave to here and help me build your fly rods? Today it is a steady, cold, spring rain.  My fax machine blew up.  Had to buy a new one.  Just now finished hooking it up. This was AFTER we mailed that BIG check. See your Grand American & Bastard Updates.  Order a reel with that Bastard Beauty that you have coming.  You only live once.  This is what a lot of you are doing. Visit: http://www.gink.com I’m looking for a good golf ball wax for this one golf ball I have.  Any suggestions Walt?  It is, by the way, beginning to look its age.  I’ve only played 112 rounds of golf with it.  Wayne will make it 113 which will be his spook number.  Possibly we should write a book about this one.  "How to Play With One Ball," by F. Burywood?  Forward by:  Wayne Harrison? Mr. G.

Response:

_______ I spe I’m looking for a good golf ball wax for this one golf ball I have.  Any suggestions Walt?  It is, by the way, beginning to look its age.  I’ve only played 112 rounds of golf with it.  Wayne will make it 113 which will be his spook number.  Possibly we should write a book about this one.  "How to Play With One Ball," by F. Burywood?  Forward by:  Wayne Harrison? Mr. G.

 George…you’re askin the wrong guy. I lose more damn balls than a schizoid squirel loses nuts. Hell, last time out I lost 18 damn balls in one round. I’d smack my tee shot and lose sight of the dang thing. After ’bout 4 hours of this crap I headed for the bar.  About 15 minutes later this guy walked in with his wife and gave me my damn 18 titleists back. He said, it’s proper golf ettiquette to remove the ball from the holes after you sink ‘em. Go figure. Waldo —          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604       http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter to view our ongoing auctions at Ebay, click below… http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=blue…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _______ I spe I’m looking for a good golf ball wax for this one golf ball I have.  Any suggestions Walt?  It is, by the way, beginning to look its age.  I’ve only played 112 rounds of golf with it.  Wayne will make it 113 which will be his spook number.  Possibly we should write a book about this one.  "How to Play With One Ball," by F. Burywood?  Forward by:  Wayne Harrison? Mr. G.  George…you’re askin the wrong guy. I lose more damn balls than a schizoid squirel loses nuts. Hell, last time out I lost 18 damn balls in one round. I’d smack my tee shot and lose sight of the dang thing. After ’bout 4 hours of this crap I headed for the bar.  About 15 minutes later this guy walked in with his wife and gave me my damn 18 titleists back. He said, it’s proper golf ettiquette to remove the ball from the holes after you sink ‘em. Go figure. Waldo

Mr.  G.

Response:

Question:

I see you have some responses from folks talking about chest waders, not hip waders.  The hip boots are not so snug as neoprene and they just go up far enough to make you think you can wade in a shallow stream, then after a few steps about knee deep you step six inches deeper and suddenly have a water parachute strapped onto each leg. Damn right these things can kill you if you’re in heavy water when this

happens. You’re right, Mark. In my lexicon, "hip waders" end at a belt around the waist, while "hip boots" (which I gather is the actual topic) end around mid-thigh, and certainly can’t be "belted"… The above perspective may be due to being 6′5" tall: they don’t make "hip boots" that come to *my* hips, that’s for sure ;^) The only time I wear "hip boots" is when launching or reloading my boat – I’d wet-wade before I’d ever use a pair of those for fishing… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.               Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus                      Maynard, Massachusetts < < !!NOTE: Remove the "XX" from my address to respond by email!!  < <<<<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely to be                     shared by my employer, etc…

Response:

I see you have some responses from folks talking about chest waders, not The only time I wear "hip boots" is when launching or reloading my boat – I’d wet-wade before I’d ever use a pair of those for fishing… Cheers! /dave

Hi Dave, I’ve been watching this thread and for the most part agree about hip boats if you’re talking bigger water. They ARE no fun to swim in (voice of experience), but you’re not typically in chest deep water if you do go down when wearing hip boots.  Unless you oopsy and find a deep hole because you weren’t probing with your wading staff, or get washed into deep water you can usually get stood up again without too much problem.   But! When fishing very fast and rough water where I’m not quite crazy enough to wade over knee deep, or fishing small and/or well known streams, I much prefer "hip boots".  I can roll them down to get some air to vital parts, and they are much less restrictive (to me).  Scratching is easier too. I guess I’m a wuss, ’cause if I’m wading water that I know has sections over my head, or I don’t know well, I get real nervous about wading in very deep…. War story……. The last time I went down with hip boots the water was only about 30" deep.  I drug a hand to keep my head upstream, was washed into a deeper hole, stood up, and walked out.  That walk might have been a little rushed, since it was November and the water was a bit cool. I wasn’t wearing a pfd since I know the river well and have fished it for thirty years.  It was no big drama, except the walk back to the truck was miserable. If it had been a strange stream, I’d have had a pfd on and floated to the next shallow stretch, or swam to shore.  In my chest waders. Steve

Response:

FYI: I once read somewhere that Lee Wulff jumped off a bridge with waders, head first no less, to prove a point about waders filling with water. I can’t remember if they were hip or chest waders. Maybe someone else has come across this story.

No big deal for Lee…the man walked on water… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

Michael, I saw a film of Lee Wulff diving off of a bridge with waders and no belt then swimming to shore in order to prove that waders filled with water won’t pull you under. Water weighs nothing in water. I’ve been toying with the idea of trying this out in a swimming pool sometime. My concern with neoprene waders is that they might float your legs too high in the water causing you to fight to keep your head high. Ron

Response:

   About 5 years ago, a visiting fisherman ventured too far out off of Oregon Beach in Cotuit (Cape Cod) and disappeared. If I remember correctly, they found what was left of him a few weeks later. The accident was attributed to his lack of knowledge of the area, which is riddled with deep water holes, and the fact that he could not get out of his waders. It happens…

Well, as apparently "what was left of him" couldn’t answer whether the waders had anything to do with his disappearance, the waders may not actually have been a factor. We lose many swimmers (not wearing waders, obviously) from undertow along the New England coast than that. I’ve swamped in my waders in heavy water (eg: Rapid River, and the Andy below the Gage House pool) and never felt at additional risk from the waders. Wear a friggin’ belt – common sense at work, imho… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.               Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus                      Maynard, Massachusetts < < !!NOTE: Remove the "XX" from my address to respond by email!!  < <<<<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely to be                     shared by my employer, etc…

Response:

Is this discussion about panic or real danger ? If you fall in with hippers and panic…yer dead.   If you fall in with hippers and stay cool…yer alive. That’s what they tell you anyway…I dunno…. Once at a party a well intentioned but rather inebriated good friend pushed me into the deep end of the private pool.  I had on big hiking boots and levis. (Quite the pool-party-animal that I am….).  I honestly got really scared when I tried to swim but could not, sinking like a rock. On the bottom, I pushed off the bottom enough that I made it to the edge.  I’d have to think that most cases in rivers, streams and lakes, you could essentially do the same thing.  A big dropoff though ?  A man in Boulder reservoir died in hippers just this way a few years back.  Hippers in big water I think is very, very dangerous.  Not from filling with water, but because the boots themselves are more dense. TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack Michael, I saw a film of Lee Wulff diving off of a bridge with waders and no belt then swimming to shore in order to prove that waders filled with water won’t pull you under. Water weighs nothing in water. I’ve been toying with the idea of trying this out in a swimming pool sometime. My concern with neoprene waders is that they might float your legs too high in the water causing you to fight to keep your head high. Ron

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Hmm, hip waders are dangerous, and significantly more so than chest waders. The Lee Wulff stunt was done with neoprene chest waders. Neoprene is lighter than water and will help you float. The problems with hip waders are that they fill very quickly and they open up “parachute style”. More often than not they are made of rubber, which does not float. I have been dragged away by a river both in chest neoprene waders and in rubber hip waders, and the hip waders accident was much much more scary, I thought I would have to slip off them. Hip waders often have a buckle on the side, so you can strap them to your belt. The fist thing I would do when I bougth a new pair of hip waders was to cut the damn thing off, so that, in case of emergency, it would be much easier to slip off them. This was suggested to my by the most experienced fisherman I know and by the owner of the shop I used to go to when I was in Italy. I have heard of enough accidents with hip waders back in Europe to consider them dangerous in large bodies of water.  In small bodies of water, though, they are definitely preferable, as they are much easier to get in and out of, IMHO. -Vittorio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack Michael, I saw a film of Lee Wulff diving off of a bridge with waders and no belt then swimming to shore in order to prove that waders filled with water won’t pull you under. Water weighs nothing in water. I’ve been toying with the idea of trying this out in a swimming pool sometime. My concern with neoprene waders is that they might float your legs too high in the water causing you to fight to keep your head high. Ron

Response:

I see you have some responses from folks talking about chest waders, not hip waders.  The hip boots are not so snug as neoprene and they just go up far enough to make you think you can wade in a shallow stream, then after a few steps about knee deep you step six inches deeper and suddenly have a water parachute strapped onto each leg. Damn right these things can kill you if you’re in heavy water when this happens. I don’t think there is a practical fishing use for these, maybe for landing fish when you are shorefishing but not for wading.  Even waist height waders make a big difference where it counts most because you can belt them. If you use hip waders you should get some lacy garters to go with them.   MarK Vinsel Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

– http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

Michael,     About 5 years ago, a visiting fisherman ventured too far out off of Oregon Beach in Cotuit (Cape Cod) and disappeared. If I remember correctly, they found what was left of him a few weeks later. The accident was attributed to his lack of knowledge of the area, which is riddled with deep water holes, and the fact that he could not get out of his waders. It happens… — Tight lines and sharp hooks, Capt. Mark Poirier

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

Hi Michael I’ve not personally seen a death from hip waders but have over the years helped fly fishers who "went too far" while using hip waders on three occasions. One on the Madison River would have ended in a drown had a friend and I not been handy to pull the guy out of the water. With the full waders I don’t know if I could have pulled him out alone — the current and the full waders made for a very heavy load. I personally think hip waders are and accident waiting to happen but I’m sure there are many who would not agree. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

FYI: I once read somewhere that Lee Wulff jumped off a bridge with waders, head first no less, to prove a point about waders filling with water. I can’t remember if they were hip or chest waders. Maybe someone else has come across this story. B.

Response:

Hello folks, My name is Michael Drapack. I am a journalist for a consumer show on Canadian television. I know this may sound a little strange, but the medical examiner in the province of British Columbia has recently recorded three deaths caused by hip waders filling with water and drowning the person wearing them. Has anybody out there heard of a Thank you and sorry for the intrusion Michael Drapack

This is a regular, tho I’m glad to say, infrequent occurence during the fishing season in Scotland. It is wholly unnecessary because many anglers panic when they "go over the top" and do not know how to react (although sometimes drowning results from a secondary factor like heart attact from the shock as happened on the Spey last year). If you do fall in the procedure is to get on your back, keep your feet well up and pointing downstream (your feet will hit the rocks rather than your head) and paddle with your hands towards the shallow water. The late Hugh Falkus of Cumbria and flyfisher extrordinaire made an excellent video of this when he was about, I think, 70 years old, demonstrating in person. The demonstration was also shown on one the TV angling programmes over here a few years back. Hope this helps – Ian — Ian McCowen – Polwarth Manse, Greenlaw, Berwickshire TD10 6YR SCOTLAND (fine old books on Shooting, Fishing, Natural History bought & sold)

Response:

Question:

Hi fellow fishermen: If you got an unusual fish story, I want to hear it.  Please go to my web site at http://www.apc.net/seasidek and e-mail me your fish stories.  I will post them on the web for everyone to see. P.S Tell your fishing friends

Response:

Hello Fellow fishermen If you have an unusual fish story, I want to hear it.  Please go to my web site at http://www.apc.net/seasidek and e-mail me your story.  I will post them on the web for all to see. P.S  Tell all your fishing buddies.

Response:

Dear Fellow Fly Fisher, If you have ever wanted your own place to go to in Florida to enjoy great Saltwater flats Fly Fishing, then check out the WEB site listed below. This Sportsmans club is going to be owned by ten enthusiastic anglers. Your own location in Florida for 1/10th the cost. Check out the site and let me know if you are interested. We have five people so far leaving only five positions open. RL http://www.praxis.net/~riverclub/

Response:

Question:

Hi Group, Gretchen and I are traveling to a fly tying expo in Eugene, OR (in the new car I bought her today for our wedding anniversary) and will be off line for a couple of days. Don’t worry, we will answer your emails as soon as possible. Any one in the Eugene area stop by the Lane County fair grounds and say hello. We would love to me all of you. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

Response:

: Gretchen and I are traveling to a fly tying expo in Eugene, OR (in the : new car I bought her today for our wedding anniversary) and will be off : line for a couple of days. Don’t worry, we will answer your emails as : soon as possible. Any one in the Eugene area stop by the Lane County : fair grounds and say hello. We would love to me all of you. I’ll be there if you will buy me a car Al.  How many years must I "put in" before I get one? Have fun. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Hi Group, Gretchen and I are traveling to a fly tying expo in Eugene, OR (in the new car I bought her today for our wedding anniversary) and will be off line for a couple of days. Don’t worry, we will answer your emails as soon as possible. Any one in the Eugene area stop by the Lane County fair grounds and say hello. We would love to me all of you. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com Tiemco quality hooks, under $6.00 pkg/50

Happy Anniversary Al and Gretchen!!! Roger

Response:

Question:

That’s true. Starting with the RPL+ rods, at least that’s what my flyshop guys said. Gerhard

Response:

"Sage rods, reels and blanks carry an unconditional, original-owner guarantee. Regardless of cause, Sage will promptly repair or replace any rod, reel or blank that is defective or damaged free of charge. In addition, we promise to give you the best service and repair in the industry and we will return ship your rod, reel or blank within 7 working days" That is right off of the back cover of the 1996 Sage catalog. The same warranty also applies to Lamson reels. Clay

Response:

Summary: Sage Unconditional Lifetime Warrenty?  A tackle shop guy told me that next year Sage rods will have an unconditional lifetime warrenty. So if your dog chews up the Sage years from now Sage will fix or replace it free with no questions asked. Can anyone confirm or deny this statement? -regards Wayne V Ohh.. the tackle guy also stated the price will be increasing 7%.

Wayne, your source was correct.  The rods will have an unconditional warranty.  Prices are going up and they have a new series of rods the Rpl +.  They look really good.  We have found that they cast better with more control than the Rpl’s.  The Rpl 4 pieces have been dropped so if you want one better grab it now. Ken

Response:

That’s true. Starting with the RPL+ rods, at least that’s what my flyshop guys said. Gerhard

I’ve also heard the warranty applies to blanks as well. Very good news. Bob Petti Endwell, NY

Response:

(SNIP) That is right off of the back cover of the 1996 Sage catalog. The same warranty also applies to Lamson reels.

Which are now owned by Sage, right? Bob Petti Endwell, NY

Response:

   The "lifetime replacement guarantee" on the label doesn’t tell the whole story. Most manufacturer’s will replace a broken rod for relatively little money.    We break many rods in our flyfishing classes. For fun we sent back a broken rod each to SAGE, LOOMIS, FENWICK, WINSTON and SCOTT. We used a friends letterhead and return address so the companies wouldn’t have incentive to treat us any better than their regular rod repair/replacement.    SAGE: We sent the rod in on Monday and had a new one on Thursday (Blue Label UPS). We have broken several Sage rods, and all of them have been replaced within a week. Incredible service like this should be rewarded.    LOOMIS: They sent us reciept of our broken rod and had us verify shipping address. Total turn around was 8 working days and cost was $30.00 for a new tip.    FENWICK: They sent us a new rod in three weeks but it was the wrong rod. We called them and they arranged for us to pick up a new one off a local dealer’s shelf.    WINSTON: This was the only rod sent with a defect (The internal ferrule fell out). They took 6 weeks to repair the rod then charged us $30.00. We made a complaint on plain stationary and they stood by their charge. We made a second complaint on our flyfishing school letterhead and they not only reversed the charge but sent us a couple of hats.    SCOTT: It took 5 months and two phone calls to get the rod back. I hate to say this because I love Scott rods and am good friends with many of their staff. Tight lines, Ralph Cutter —

Response:

  A tackle shop guy told me that next year Sage rods will have an  unconditional lifetime warrenty. So if your dog chews up the Sage  years from now Sage will fix or replace it free with no questions  asked.  Can anyone confirm or deny this statement?  -regards  Wayne V  Ohh.. the tackle guy also stated the price will be increasing 7%.

Response:

Question:

ANYONE IN THIS NEWSGROUP INTERESTED IN A SE MASS S/W FLY FISH COAST E MAIL ME DIRECT REGARDS MATT

Response:

I’m interested.

Response:

Question:

My fishing buddy and I will be in Idaho Falls and Yellowstone the first of June.  Any suggestions on patterns and sizes will be greatly appreciated as this is our first visit to the area. Also, any information on small steams in the area and the outlook for that time of the year. Steve D.

Response:

My fishing buddy and I will be in Idaho Falls and Yellowstone the first of June.  Any suggestions on patterns and sizes will be greatly appreciated as this is our first visit to the area. Also, any information on small steams in the area and the outlook for that time of the year. Steve D.

Hi Steve,         A friend of mine named Jim Mengle is a guide at Last Chance Lodge in Last Chance ID.  It’s right in the middle of the best rainbow fishing in the lower 48.  Big strong wild rainbows on the Henry’s Fork River!!!  The lodge is run by a great guy named Lynn Sessions & Family.  It’s about an hour northeast of Idaho Falls on route 20. It’s right on the banks of the Henry’s Fork River on the way to Yellowstone Park.  I would be up in that area if I were you…  As a matter of fact that is where I’ll be!  THE hatch  (Western Green Drake) will probably be happening about then.  Also PMDs size 16 and Caddis with green egg sacs about size 14-16.  Fishing Bead Head Nymphs size 14-16 and Black Rubber Legs size 6-10 are a good bet in the Box Canyon.  You can wade in the Box,  but it’s best fished by drift boat. I highly recommend getting a guide (Jim is one of the best).  The fishing up here can be beyond excellent but you have to pay your dues one way or another.  For more info you can call Jim at  home 208-652-7508 or Last Chance Lodge’s # is 1-800-428-8338.  You can also get a nice inexpensive room there, plus they have an excellent fly shop.  There is also a great fly shop in Idaho Falls called Jimmy’s All Season Angler which is run by Jimmy Gabettas & Family.  Their # is 208-524-7160.   All of the above will be happy to help you guys.                                 Have Fun! | Bruce Braunstein C.C.P. | 208-524-7001

Response: