Question:

I’m planning next year’s vacation in the Florida Keys.  I was there a few years ago.  We stayed at Boyd’s Campground on Stock Island, which is right next to Key West. That was a nice spot, but this time I’m thinking of camping in the middle of the islands.  Maybe somewhere around Marathon.  Does anyone know of a nice campground in that area?

Response:

Try Knights Key, it should be listed in the camping directories. I have never stayed there but stopped by and it didn’t look to bad. Good Luck Rambler

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning next year’s vacation in the Florida Keys.  I was there a few years ago.  We stayed at Boyd’s Campground on Stock Island, which is right next to Key West. That was a nice spot, but this time I’m thinking of camping in the middle of the islands.  Maybe somewhere around Marathon.  Does anyone know of a nice campground in that area?

Response:

Bahia Honda State Park is Beautiful. Get your reservations early though. http://www.bahiahondapark.com/ Adk Keith

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning next year’s vacation in the Florida Keys.  I was there a few years ago.  We stayed at Boyd’s Campground on Stock Island, which is right next to Key West. That was a nice spot, but this time I’m thinking of camping in the middle of the islands.  Maybe somewhere around Marathon.  Does anyone know of a nice campground in that area?

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The KOA at Fiesta Key (Marathon) is nice. The waterfront sites are awesome. Especially at sunset. The interior sites are very narrow. Streetside slideouts would hit your neighbors RV. — Regards, Jim –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning next year’s vacation in the Florida Keys.  I was there a few years ago.  We stayed at Boyd’s Campground on Stock Island, which is right next to Key West. That was a nice spot, but this time I’m thinking of camping in the middle of the islands.  Maybe somewhere around Marathon.  Does anyone know of a nice campground in that area?

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I’m thinking of camping in the middle of the islands.  Maybe somewhere around Marathon.  Does anyone know of a nice campground in that area?

Try John Pennacamp SP…nice with it’s own coral reef Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.

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Have stayed the past 3yrs at Sunshine Key resort–just over the 7mi bridge. Waterfront sites are nice, marina with boat dock right there, gas station right there, laundry, stuff for kids to do, movies, games etc. pool.  Park is pet friendly as well.

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<< You may want to consider Jabour’s RV Park GB, That’s the first park I found that doesn’t give rates on their page.  Are we talking less than a hundred? Tom

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I live in a great RV park in Fl. Inexpensive as I go 6mos on and off. I rented a car last Sept  instead of taking my MH as I was told it was hard to find a spot down there. Boy  was I glad I did. US1 from Homestead to Key West was the worst slowest drive I have ever taken I’m not chicken either, I ‘v driven cross country in my MH with toad (even parked in downtown Houston). Try if you have a death wish!!  Hope I have done this right. This is my  first post

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<< You may want to consider Jabour’s RV Park GB, That’s the first park I found that doesn’t give rates on their page.  Are we talking less than a hundred? Tom

<http://www.kwcamp.com/winter14+daystay.htm You have to dig a little <grin. HD in NY

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That’s the first park I found that doesn’t give rates on their page.  Are we talking less than a hundred? Tom You have to dig a little <grin.

Actually, they aren’t as high as I’d expected. Location, location, location…<g GB in NC

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been to the Keys but would like to visit sometime this winter. I would appreciate any opinions on the practicality of a winter visit in a 27 foot fifth wheel. Are there plenty of campgrounds? How horrible is the traffic? Should I pick a "base camp" somewhere out of the mainstream and then travel the rest of them or would I be OK dragging the fiver all the way down to Key West? Are campground prices outrageous during the winter? Etc. Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Ken

Key West definitely is not a good place for a large rig.  Unless you are military, I understand there is only one campground available, and it is not pleasant. About 10 miles north of KW is the state park Bahia Honda.  If you can get a site, that would be an excellent base camp. See my 2000-2 journal. — Carl A. http://pages.prodigy.net/chainnj/Journal.htm

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<< <http://www.kwcamp.com/winter14+daystay.htm You have to dig a little <grin. HD in NY Travel Trailer…$64.00  My hundred guess was a little high. Tom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the first park I found that doesn’t give rates on their page.  Are we talking less than a hundred? Tom You have to dig a little <grin. Actually, they aren’t as high as I’d expected. Location, location, location…<g GB in NC

Well, ya gotta realize, those were 14 day rates and they came from the discounted rates section. I think for regular rates you need to fill out the questionnaire. Just for giggles, I checked the discount rate for 1 to 3 days, it’s a bit different <grin. <http://www.kwcamp.com/winter1-3daystay.htm HD in NY

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Two Christmas’ ago I checked and the price was $667.00 for one week, admittedly during the Christmas/New Year’s week.  Fortunately I qualify for military FAM camps and enjoyed a week’s stay at the Coast Guard station within walking distance to downtown at $9.00 per night. — Peace, Love and Serenity, Madeleine http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/madewar/ www.anticattic.com

: << You may want to consider Jabour’s RV Park : : GB, : : That’s the first park I found that doesn’t give rates on their page. Are we : talking less than a hundred? : : Tom :

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just spent 4 days at jabours over christmas.  104 a night  all taxes and extra for the kids.  it’s basically just a parking lot with hookups.  but you’re paying for where it’s at, not what it looks like. b

Response:

I’ve never been to the Keys but would like to visit sometime this winter. I would appreciate any opinions on the practicality of a winter visit in a 27 foot fifth wheel. Are there plenty of campgrounds? How horrible is the traffic? Should I pick a "base camp" somewhere out of the mainstream and then travel the rest of them or would I be OK dragging the fiver all the way down to Key West? Are campground prices outrageous during the winter? Etc. Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Ken — Beck Hopkins, KA9EFE  |  Red Cross & FEMA Disaster Workers

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Are there plenty of campgrounds?

Some, yes; plenty, no. How horrible is the traffic?

It’s not nearly as bad driving from somewhere TO there as it is to find a parking place after you GET there. The streets are narrow and crowded, and real estate is at a premium, so very little of it is used for parking. BTW, the drive down from Miami is absolutely spectacular. You’ll cross countless bridges, some of which are quite long, and the views out over the ocean are something you will never forget. Take your time and enjoy the ride — you can’t hurry anyway because of the congestion and the low speed limits. Be warned: US 1 down the Keys is NOT an expressway. Should I pick a "base camp" somewhere out of the mainstream and then travel the rest of them or would I be OK dragging the fiver all the way down to Key West?

That depends on whether you want to hassle with parking every day when you drive into KW. (See above.) You may want to consider Jabour’s RV Park (you can find their web site with a Google search), which is in downtown KW and within walking distance of almost everything. That way you can park your rig and not have to drive again. It’s crowded and tucked into what looks like a back alley, but it’s a nice place and very well maintained (and safe). Note: You will pay dearly for this convenience, just like you will pay for anything you get in KW. OTOH, if you stay farther up the Keys you will also pay dearly in the hassle of finding a parking place every day when you get to KW. Either way you pay. Not to say it’s not worth it, just be ready for sticker shock. KW is not a cheap place to visit at any time of the year. Are campground prices outrageous during the winter? Etc.

They are "outrageous" (all things are relative) at any time, but worth it if you want to see KW. We’ve been there twice, some years ago, and will go again at some point when time permits. Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions.

You’re welcome. Drive safely. GB in NC

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If you are eligible to use military facilities, NAS Key West has a campground on the Bay.  Take a taxi on base to KW proper and walk or rent a bike. As GDinNC says, watch your speed,  the Sheriff and Florida HP patrol and give tickets. RVC USMC (Ret)

I’ve never been to the Keys but would like to visit sometime this

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – traffic? ….." Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Ken — Beck Hopkins, KA9EFE  |  Red Cross & FEMA Disaster Workers

Response:

The last time I was in the Keys, it was about $65- a night, and was not even Key West. — Ted Harris http://www.tedharris.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been to the Keys but would like to visit sometime this winter. I would appreciate any opinions on the practicality of a winter visit in a 27 foot fifth wheel. Are there plenty of campgrounds? How horrible is the traffic? Should I pick a "base camp" somewhere out of the mainstream and then travel the rest of them or would I be OK dragging the fiver all the way down to Key West? Are campground prices outrageous during the winter? Etc. Appreciate any and all comments and suggestions. Ken — Beck Hopkins, KA9EFE  |  Red Cross & FEMA Disaster Workers

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… walk or rent a bike.

Good point. When we were there we didn’t move our camper at all, once we parked it on our "campsite" (I admit I’m using that term loosely — Jabour’s is not a traditional campground in the scenic, wooded sense <g). We walked everywhere we could, except for one afternoon when we rented a motorscooter and rode it to a couple of places that were too far to walk. That took care of everything we wanted to see on KW itself. Anything you want to see elsewhere on the Keys, you can see on your way down or back up. In fact, I’d suggest taking notes on the drive down and then you’ll know how much time (if any, depending on your interests) to allow for stops on the way back up. GB in NC

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We walked everywhere we could, except for one afternoon when we rented a motorscooter and rode it to a couple of places that were too far to walk. That took care of everything we wanted to see on KW itself.

Don’t know if its still there, but you used to be able to get an all day ticket and get on and off the "Conch Train" one of those tourist trolly things.  That could save a little hoofing.  It’s a fun tour, too. It went past the cemetery which is the only one that lets you be buried with your pets. The chamber of commerce has an excellent walking tour, IIRC.   Janet The Road Princess (I only spell-check for profit) fix the return address, please

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Yup, both are still available.  Walking tours are really great! RVC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We walked everywhere we could, except for one afternoon when we rented a motorscooter and rode it to a couple of places that were too far to walk. That took care of everything we wanted to see on KW itself. Don’t know if its still there, but you used to be able to get an all day ticket and get on and off the "Conch Train" one of those tourist trolly things. That could save a little hoofing.  It’s a fun tour, too. It went past the cemetery which is the only one that lets you be buried with your pets. The chamber of commerce has an excellent walking tour, IIRC. Janet The Road Princess (I only spell-check for profit) fix the return address, please

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Yup, both are still available.  Walking tours are really great!

As are the sunset parties and the oysters! Janet The Road Princess (I only spell-check for profit) fix the return address, please

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Blue Water Key RV resort about 15 miles from Key West is small (65 sites) quite with nice pool.  Reserve early, can be expensive.

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Anyone know a good Keys campground for the Xmas Holidays? Interested in swimming and eating, and if at all possible, privacy and quiet. Scout

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Wednesday, Carolyn and I are going to a RPI park in Moore Haven, FL. We are considering taking a car trip to the keys. We have no great desire to spend a lot of time there, but figure everyone should see the keys at least once. Since it’s 250 miles from Moore Haven, to Key West, and campgrounds are so expensive at the Keys, it seems to make sense to spend a night in a motel and drive the car at 30 mpg, instead of the MH at 7. Questions. 1. If you’ve seen one of the keys, have you seen them all? 2. Is it worth the time and trouble to drive the 100 miles of the keys? 3. What kind of speeds and delays can one expect from one end of the keys to the other? 4. Are there lots of red lights, traffic jams, construction delays, etc.? 5. Is there something you know of which is a _must_ see? 6. Is there something we should know about and maybe avoid? 7. If we changed plans and stayed in a camground in Homestead, can one drive the keys from there and back in one day without rushing? 8. Can you suggest a reasonably priced hotel/motel which is clean. Lon

Response:

Questions. 1. If you’ve seen one of the keys, have you seen them all?

No way. You haven’t seen *anything* until you’ve seen Key West. Definitely go all the way down. 2. Is it worth the time and trouble to drive the 100 miles of the keys?

Absolutely. The drive itself is worth it. The scenery is spectacular and like nothing you will see anywhere else. Any number of long, high bridges over the ocean, connecting the little islands. 3. What kind of speeds and delays can one expect from one end of the keys to the other?

Don’t know about this time of year. Always expect tourist traffic, though, and don’t be in a hurry. You’ll go through any number of congested areas. US 1 down the Keys is *not* an expressway. You’ll be driving at slower speeds than you’re used to driving on a major highway. 4. Are there lots of red lights, traffic jams, construction delays, etc.?

Don’t know. There weren’t when we were there a few years ago. 5. Is there something you know of which is a _must_ see?

Hemingway’s house is an interesting tour. Mel Fisher’s museum of recovered shipwreck treasures is worth the time, IMO. Be sure to walk down Duval Street (where all the bars are) for people-watching. There are some really different-looking people there. <g And be sure to be at Mallory Square (the docks) at sunset for a crazy time, with lots of street performers and counter-culture types having a good ol’ time. 6. Is there something we should know about and maybe avoid?

Everything is expensive (location, location, location) — but you can’t avoid it, so don’t worry about it. 7. If we changed plans and stayed in a camground in Homestead, can one drive the keys from there and back in one day without rushing?

No. Not without rushing. And you wouldn’t have time to see anything once you got there. Besides, you need to be there at sunset (see above). 8. Can you suggest a reasonably priced hotel/motel which is clean.

Nothing will seem "reasonably priced." But it’s worth it, especially for one night. We’ve been twice and often talk about going again when we have time for a longer trip. GB in NC

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Here is a short list of some of the camping facilities:

<snipped  I think the extensive list of URL’s probably busted his cell phone minute budget.  Lon & Carolyn, find an RV park not too far away and just go for it!  Report back on the sunsets and of, course, the food. If the guy on the lake is still offering parasailing, do that, too. J The Road Princess Residentially Challenged Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility

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We’ve been down several times and find all the responses to this thread to be relevant. Whilst in Key West, we stay at the Fairfield Inn and use the trolly.

Yes!  We all forgot to tell Lon that taking a ride on the *Conch Train* is a must do.  The chamber of commerce in the heart of town used to have a free walking tour map, too, that was very nice if yo are in to architecture. J The Road Princess Residentially Challenged Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility

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Lon, everyone has been spot on about the Key’s. The only thing that was missed so far is make sure you stop and get a piece of real Key Lime Pie. If it’s green it’s fake. Have fun

I love the raw oysters down there, but Lon is a Michigan boy and, from my experience they aren’t crazy about raw shellfish .   They make this drink on the upper Keys called a rum runner which is awesome. You sit on the porch overlooking the Gulf of Mexico and watch the sun extinquish itself in the Gulf.  You almost expcet to hear a hiss and see steam.  It’s much quieter than the sunset parties on Key West, but a pleasant and memorable experience. J The Road Princess Residentially Challenged Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility

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Yes, but I have faith that Lon will not turn into a liberal. Tom M

LOL Your faith is justified. Lon

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Jim An Old Parrot Head, In the Conch Republic, Just South of Reality PS: One of these days I will have a BlueBird,, until them I read & learn here daily….

Thanks for all the links, but I connect via cell phone. Thankfully, most of the campground are covered pretty well in our directories. Add that to the fact Good luck with that BlueBird. If money were no object, I’d swallow hard and tolerate the diesel smell and noise to have one. After touring the factory, I can’t imagine any unit being built stronger. Lon

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For kicks, look over at the old and crumbling Bahia Honda bridge which parallels Seven Mile, or walk out on it to fish and think of what driving that must have been like.

Many a truck had their mirrors knocked off going across that old bridge when they passed each other. If you like fish be sure to get a fried grouper sandwich at the 7 mile grill on the north side of the bridge. Great! Dennis

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Maybe this will change your mind about Key West. I absolutely love going there – and I am a liberal. It is the only true tropical weather in the continental USA (no daily average temperature below 32 degrees). It has all of the tropical plants that go with that climate. Add historic buildings – add beaches – plenty of shops and restaurants – championship sports fishing – golf – sailboat as sunset – circus cats – manmade land of coral – beautiful blue waters – sunsets – snorkeling – flying to fort jefferson – the Cuban adventure – refugees in little boats made of inner tubes and sapplings – light houses – salvaging on the reefs – gold coins from Spanish galleons – Flaglers railroad bridges  - Duval St – museums in forts – perfectly flat bicycling – mopeds – scooters – tour ships – first class hotels – bed and breakfasts made from mahogany from old ships – old homes – the conch train – Audabon home – Hemmingway home and cats – artistic community – college kids at spring breaks – drunks – bikinis – rainbow flags – driving down route 1 to its end – and the strong presence of the gay community.

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Lon, everyone has been spot on about the Key’s. The only thing that was missed so far is make sure you stop and get a piece of real Key Lime Pie. If it’s green it’s fake. Have fun

Will do, Larrie. Thanks for the tip. Lon

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Lon 1st, if you don’t get accommodations in the Keys,,, at least get something in the Homestead area.. This time a year we are a bit full of snow birds, so your drive from Florida City to Key West can take a couple hours,,, it’s only 127 miles,, but also only one road,,, US 1,,, not a lot of traffic lights,, but few passing areas.. Here is the FAQ maintained by the crowd on the Florida Sportsman Fishing Forum: http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=100907 It is full of everything you need to know,, from accommodations, to weather, fishing seasons, guide services, flora & fauna.. You should try one of our State parks,, either Long Key or Bahia Honda,, the later is only 33 miles from Key West.  There are also several KOA’s and other parks that can accommodate the biggest of the pushers… Here is a short list of some of the camping facilities: Sugarloaf KOA – http://floridakeys.net/koasugarloaf Fiesta Key KOA – http://floridakeys.net/koafiesta Dry Tortugas National Park – http://www.dry.tortugas.nation…g.htm Sunshine Key Encore Campground – http://www.encorerv.com/unique…n.htm Long Key State Park – http://www.floridastateparks.o…t.asp Bahia Honda State Park – http://www.floridastateparks.o…t.asp John Pennekamp State Park – http://www.floridastateparks.o…t.asp Knights Key Campground – http://www.seefloridaonline.co…athon You are a little late for the annual debauchery,,, we have a party at the end of October called Fantasy Fest,, based loosely on Halloween,, very similar to New Orleans’s Marti Gras,,, rather than use Ash Wednesday, we use All Saints Day,,, We encourage parents not to bring the KIDS,,, nufff said??? GB in NC hit your Q’s well,,, Here are a couple other web sites that may be of interest: http://www.fantasyfest.net/   << the official site http://www.bigeasychoppers.com/festival1.html   <<<< some pictures for the strong of hart If you fly fish,, here is a note I wrote a while back that address wade fishing: http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=95444 Good Luck,, Jim An Old Parrot Head, In the Conch Republic, Just South of Reality PS: One of these days I will have a BlueBird,, until them I read & learn here daily….

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There are Campgrounds in the Keys.. Why not just take the rig? Yes , it’s crowded down here at this time of year, but that never seems to stop anyone.

Neither of us particularly like "crowded", and would avoid the keys entirely for that reason were it not for all the great things we have heard about it. I want to see it, but don’t want to stay long. It just doesn’t make sense to either of us to drive the MH 500 miles round trip to spend one night in it. Logically, since campgrounds generally cost $50/night on the keys, we figure we can spend up to $200 on a motel and food, and still be money ahead of the game. Besides, we’ve only spent 3 nights in the last 16 months which weren’t in the MH. It’ll be like a mini vacation. <g Also, don’t worry about food, there are great restaurants every where. Take your time (It’s only one road in and out.), see the sights (Sunrise while driving over the Long Key Bridge is one of my favorites ), and enjoy. BTW – Pennekamp state Park is in Key Largo.

What are the odds of getting in next week without a reservation? Lon

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<< We’ve been twice and often talk about going again when we have time for a longer trip. GB in NC I agree with everything GB said.  It’s one corner of this country.  You have to be there at least once. Tom M

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PS we have made the grade!!!  Decenber 5th was the day. Took about a year.

Congratulations. Vote early and often. <G Lon

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<< We’ve been twice and often talk about going again when we have time for a longer trip. GB in NC I agree with everything GB said.  It’s one corner of this country.  You have to be there at least once. Tom M

You do know that Key West is the *real* margaritaville? Janet, ruining her reputation <g The Road Princess Residentially Challenged Spelling and punctuation is up to my editors. I take no responsibility

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PS we have made the grade!!!  Decenber 5th was the day. Took about a year. Congratulations. Vote early and often. <G Lon

Thanks Lon, we are very happy with our new status. regards to Carolyn from Carol and I Aubrey

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<< I agree with everything GB said.  It’s one corner of this country.  You have to be there at least once. Tom M

You do know that Key West is the *real* margaritaville? Yes, but I have faith that Lon will not turn into a liberal. Tom M

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Is it worth the trip?  Absolutely, there’s nothing like it anywhere else in the Country.  Who knows, you may like it so much you never leave.  Happened to me, and I stayed for fifteen years. Canoli

Thanks a bunch, Canoli…and everyone else who responded. That should keep us busy and expose us to just the _right_ amount of trouble. <g Lon

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8. Can you suggest a reasonably priced hotel/motel which is clean. Lon

We’ve been down several times and find all the responses to this thread to be relevant. Whilst in Key West, we stay at the Fairfield Inn and use the trolly. Don’t miss sundown on the pier! Peter & Anne-Marie Arnold Windsor, CT ‘95 F250 W/PSD {156 Kmi} 31 Ft Prowler Fifth Wheel NCT # 13390, The Masonic Campers

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There are Campgrounds in the Keys.. Why not just take the rig? Yes , it’s crowded down here at this time of year, but that never seems to stop anyone. Also, don’t worry about food, there are great restaurants every where. Take your time (It’s only one road in and out.), see the sights (Sunrise while driving over the Long Key Bridge is one of my favorites ), and enjoy. BTW – Pennekamp state Park is in Key Largo.

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Is it worth the trip?  Absolutely, there’s nothing like it anywhere else in the Country.  Who knows, you may like it so much you never leave.  Happened to me, and I stayed for fifteen years.

What did you find to do for a living down there? John

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 Hello, http://www.kwcamp.com/  (Key West) http://www.aokl.com/      (Key Largo)  Great 2 campgrounds, we prefer Key Largo with private beach, great sunsets,  Ardyno

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Lon, everyone has been spot on about the Key’s. The only thing that was missed so far is make sure you stop and get a piece of real Key Lime Pie. If it’s green it’s fake. Have fun

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Wednesday, Carolyn and I are going to a RPI park in Moore Haven, FL. We are considering taking a car trip to the keys. We have no great desire to spend a lot of time there, but figure everyone should see the keys at least once. Since it’s 250 miles from Moore Haven, to Key West, and campgrounds are so expensive at the Keys, it seems to make sense to spend a night in a motel and drive the car at 30 mpg, instead of the MH at 7. Questions. 1. If you’ve seen one of the keys, have you seen them all?

Yeah, you might as well go Miami and take in the sights in Liberty City. 2. Is it worth the time and trouble to drive the 100 miles of the

keys? It is 128 miles from Homestead to Key West 3. What kind of speeds and delays can one expect from one end of the keys to the other?

It will depend on how many morons like you, decide to kill themselves on the highway on that particular day. 4. Are there lots of red lights, traffic jams, construction delays,

etc.? Every other block, there is a red light 5. Is there something you know of which is a _must_ see?

The Gae Bois in Key West. 6. Is there something we should know about and maybe avoid?

The Gae Bois in Key West. 7. If we changed plans and stayed in a camground in Homestead, can one drive the keys from there and back in one day without rushing?

Depends on how many speeding tickets you feel comfortable with. 8. Can you suggest a reasonably priced hotel/motel which is clean.

The Mamma Jamma Inn on MLK Blvd in Liesure City. Don’t waste your time going if you want to drive to Key West and back in a day.  Disney world sounds like it would be more your speed.  If you do decide to go, the troopers always have their eyes open for out of state speeders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lon

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wednesday, Carolyn and I are going to a RPI park in Moore Haven, FL. We are considering taking a car trip to the keys. We have no great desire to spend a lot of time there, but figure everyone should see the keys at least once. Since it’s 250 miles from Moore Haven, to Key West, and campgrounds are so expensive at the Keys, it seems to make sense to spend a night in a motel and drive the car at 30 mpg, instead of the MH at 7. Questions. 1. If you’ve seen one of the keys, have you seen them all? 2. Is it worth the time and trouble to drive the 100 miles of the keys? 3. What kind of speeds and delays can one expect from one end of the keys to the other? 4. Are there lots of red lights, traffic jams, construction delays, etc.? 5. Is there something you know of which is a _must_ see? 6. Is there something we should know about and maybe avoid? 7. If we changed plans and stayed in a camground in Homestead, can one drive the keys from there and back in one day without rushing? 8. Can you suggest a reasonably priced hotel/motel which is clean. Lon

Hi Lon, We did that Key West thing about two years ago. We parked at a Casino near Homestead and spent a night parked there  and asked them the next morning if we could leave the RV parked with them. They didnt mind so we motored down by car. It was a long drive but worth it. There are touristy things to see along the way and the part I found interesting was looking out to sea, in a S.E direction to  Cuba ,apparently 90 mi away. (According to the sign they have put up) We also stayed at a state campground and went out  to sea in a  glass bottom boat. That was "cool" Do the trip, you will enjoy it. Regards PS we have made the grade!!!  Decenber 5th was the day. Took about a year.

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Question:

Had a long trip to the back of beyond.Davis creek in the Yukon-Koyukuk Alaska region.The only artificials I took were DuPont spinners.Mining is such a bore compared to fly fishing.But the 4th was memorable.I shot down about 1000 yds3 of secondary and tertiary gravels for the guys to ash.( someone has to get the gold to plate hooks with )

Thank god you are back.  Finally these environuts will get off the timber industry and start in on the mining. <g   Welcome back to a working man’s hell. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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 Had a long trip to the back of beyond.Davis creek in the Yukon-Koyukuk Alaska region.The only artificials I took were DuPont spinners.Mining is such a bore compared to fly fishing.But the 4th was memorable.I shot down about 1000 yds3 of secondary and tertiary gravels for the guys to ash.( someone has to get the gold to plate hooks with ) —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

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Question:

Hi all, I’m new to flyfishing and trying to learn as much as possible. This newsgroup is a great source…thanks to all who contribute. I was hoping that some of the group experts could take a look at a web page that I’ve set up with about 9 pictures of what I’m sure are very common dry flies (one nymph is included). A flyfishing guide purchased them for me some time back and now I’m interested in knowing more about them.  Also, if anyone knows of any color reference books or web pages that I can use to identify flies (many books are B&W <sigh…it would be most appreciated…thanks in advance everyone! The web address is http://members.aol.com/kraftshoot/flys.jpg

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Hi all, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to flyfishing and trying to learn as much as possible. This newsgroup is a great source…thanks to all who contribute. I was hoping that some of the group experts could take a look at a web page that I’ve set up with about 9 pictures of what I’m sure are very common dry flies (one nymph is included). A flyfishing guide purchased them for me some time back and now I’m interested in knowing more about them.  Also, if anyone knows of any color reference books or web pages that I can use to identify flies (many books are B&W <sigh…it would be most appreciated…thanks in advance everyone! The web address is http://members.aol.com/kraftshoot/flys.jpg

The photos are a bit dark, and it is extremely difficult to analyse fly patterns just from photos anyway, but here goes. Flies one and two are "Compara duns" these are flies with split tails, a dubbed body, no hackle as such, and elk or deer hair "wings" tied in a specific fashion. Namely spread in a half circle over the upper part of the hook and tilted slightly forward.These are remarkably successful flies, and the tying materials and style are more important as recognition points than any specific patterns or colours. The flies shown are imitations of olives. Fly three is a spinner imitation with what looks like antron wings. Again an olive. I would prefer smoke blue antron as wings on such a fly, but the "transparent" antron works as well. Flies four and five are parachute style dry-flies, with what looks like calf tail post wings, standard cock hackle wound horizontally around the post, and again seem to be olives. Fly six is a more or less standard hackled dry fly with a relatively short hackle, and this is tied over about a third of the body, probably designed for rough water fishing. Once again an olive. Flies seven and eight  are once again Compara duns, and again olives. Fly nine is an emerger pattern, tied with a trailing shuck of hackle fibre The  bead head nymph, which could be used to imitate almost anything, but this again looks like it was tied to represent an olive nymph. Trying to learn the names of all these flies is a waste of time. As long as you know what you use it for, that is really all that matters. Whether it has a name, or is just a reasonable imitation is quite immaterial.  All of the flies shown look like good fish catchers, and could in fact be used in various sizes to imitate a whole host of naturals. But the range shown here are practically all olive imitations. For lists of various patterns etc try : http://www.virtualflyshop.com/ for info on Olives etc try : http://www.fishing-in-wales.co.uk/wildlife/insects/upwing/bwolive.htm You might also like to look at : http://www.virtualflybox.com/ http://freespace.virgin.net/fly.fishing/index.htm   for colour photos of many flies http://www.sea-ex.com/recreational1/fly1.htm In the meantime there are thousands of sites on the web with info on patterns and tying and fly-fishing generally. The best thing to do is use a good search engine, such as http://www.google.com   and start searching for some of them. You will soon find plenty which you can use. The sites above also have links to many others, which you can try. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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You were asking for someone to identify the flies – I don’t know if you were asking for specific names or not.  Mike gave you the *styles*, which I think is a good idea.  I saw a book recently that looks really good – it helps sort out these kinds of flies by style, and helps you organize them in your head.  There are color pictures of all, and it’s not real long or expensive (under $20 US). "Essential Trout Flies" by Dave Hughes.  He identifies the major styles (Comparadun, parachute, traditional Catskill, spent spinner, thorax, etc.) and tells under which conditions each would be best, and how to fish them, and how to tie them.  Check it out http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0811727483/qid=963285608/sr=1-… -4362007-9744861 Good luck Regards, Jeff

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Question:

My limited salt water flyfishing led to being bitten by a shark.  Vinnie and I were casting for perch from some tidal rocks at the James V. Fitzgerald wildlife preserve just south of Pacifica in Northern California.  It was an extra low tide and we were having moderate success.  We also had a bait rod set up and hooked a nice leopard shark on a strip of squid.  I took the hint and tied on a large white streamer of Vinnie’s design.  It worked and I was into a 4 foot leopard shark – a very nice leopard shark indeed.  It was a long, dogged fight that drew the attention of a group of people who were enjoying the tide pools.  As I landed the beautiful fish we were surrounded by onlookers.  I intended to keep the fish in the water and slip the hook out, but several people were asking for a look.  Here’s where I’m grateful for thick neoprene.  Now a leopard shark has relatively small teeth.  We’re not talking great white, mako or even blue shark here, but they do have teeth, so when I lifted the shark by the tail for my "audience" and he swiftly swung right up and onto my thigh, well I was a bit suprised.  The fish bit right into my upper thigh and proceeded to get his pointy little teeth stuck like velcro in my waders.  Well it brought a gasp from the crowd and sincere laughter from Vinnie.  The waders now have a very distinct "jaws" shaped area of leakage, but the leg went unscathed.  Had I been in shorts and bare legs this could have been a lot more interesting. JE * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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Any time you step into saltwater you become a potential part of the food chain.

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Jonnie, what color/pattern were your waders? also size? wet or dry? i’m planning a lil shark fishin myself….

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Interesting story.  I was expecting  something worse, as there are MUCH bigger sharks that roam the Northern California coast…… —Muskie Before you buy.

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Question:

: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall.

And sometimes that’s not enough. Steve

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You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

Well, yes, he would. Mitch

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join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew.

Bullshit.  It’s why I keep both my waders and my beer near the back door. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

Sounds like its T-bone affirmation time. T-bone, your good enough, your smart enough, and gosh darnit, (many) people (on this ng) like you.  Hang in there, baby.  Just go eat a few little wild brookies.  Always makes me feel better. Brett INFORMED and ENLIGHTEND C&R

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While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish."

That’s a definition that will get us in trouble, eventually.  I think it’s important to differentiate between blood sports (even if it’s C&R) and the games people play for fun.  This "sport" also requires a measure of responsibility toward nature, which other sports do not.  The anti-everything crowd has a hey-day with any activity that even occasionally kills something in the name of sport.  We need another label… — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

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T-Bone, A. If I am ever in CO you can count on me to ruin your health for several days. We will     probably do some fishing also. B. I can remember several of your posts including saving your dog, topless float trips, promising     to post GIFs of you and your buds removing living whitefish heads with your teeth and the ever     popular C&R vs C&K without resorting to any ’save’ files. C. I may not always agree with your opions but I will defend your right etc etc D. Always remember what I think when someone treats me as you have been treated; "Some people     are above me and some BLOW ME !". E. I live by the following creed when dealing with these people; "Life is a question of mind and     matter, I don’t mind and they don’t matter". The only editor a man needs is honesty. As you were, carry on. — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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Hello thoughtful readers,

Well, here’s your first mistake Tim. You’re assuming that anyone with access to a keyboard can pound out something intelligent… I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here. <snip

Yes you have, and I for one appreciate it. As often as not, I’ve disagreed with you, but I’ve been a lot more pissed off at the people who would attack you rather join in a civilized discussion of what you’ve said. This _is_ a discussion group is it not? <snip   I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes

To all you bitchers an’ moaners out there- who would you have to bitch an’ moan about if were not for the inimitable Mr. T-Bone? I’ll tell ya- you’d be bitchin’ an’ moanin’ at the same Sage vs. Loomis vs. Orvis vs. whatever. And you wouldn’t be doin’ it nearly so well. As I’ve said, there’s plenty I’ve disagreed with in Tim’s posts, but I don’t see anyone around here posting funnier more thought provoking stuff. This would be one sorry ass place to hang out without him.    I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Next time I make a wrong turn on the Long Island Distressway you can expect me to come pounding on your door. We’ll go out an’ laugh at the fish as they go by… In short, I love the sport as I love life itself.

I believe you do, and that’s why you belong in this ng. But goddamn it stop calling this a sport. It ain’t. It’s a pastime. A sport implies competition and that it ain’t (IMNSHFO) Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.

Hey Tim, DON’T LET THE BASTARDS GETCHA DOWN!   These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. And never will… I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? Nope. <snip At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Screw ‘em… — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

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Hang tough Tim. As the proverb says: "A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country." (Matthew 13:57) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor. At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

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 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

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Tim, Way back before it became the rage, I too submitted a post that exposed some true idiocy in this ng. It was about IMHO how anything would be better than a FEDERAL Government being the overseer of wildlife and natual resources. I got the same hate mail, posts and name calling that you have received, only not to the extent you have been forced to endure. After my post, I saw several late (a few weeks later) replies to my original post become a thread that carried through to the election. I think your thread on C&R is having the same effect. There are positives and negatives to all issues, but we tend to forget the positive results. I hope such actions by irresponsible idiots do NOT shut you up. I have said it before and I say it again now: I may not agree with everything you say but I will read yur posts first and will defend to the death your right to post! The idiots? Ahhh… fuck em!

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 While I agree with everything you said re: T-Bone, I disagree strongly with your statement that fly fishing is a pastime not a sport. The Webster’s Dictionary has as one definition of sport, "an activity pursued for pleasure involving the hunting, taking or killing of wild animals, game or fish." Paul Marriner

OK Paul- You and Tim and Webster’s can call it any damn thing you want, I’ll call it fishing. You don’t think I could say all that stuff about Tim without a little jab somewhere;-) ?? Anyway, it’s whatever YOU wanna make it-that’s the ONLY thing that’s important. Best Regards, Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com. "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations. Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks. I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. Is that too much to ask ? TimW

Look, Tim, for what it’s worth… Sometimes your opinions make me laugh, sometimes they piss me off. The same could be said of the opinions of my wife, my mother, my brother, George Gehrke and that kid down at the 7-11 with the pierced nose. Post whatever the hell you want, but don’t stop posting. This newsgroup would be a very boring place without your insights and opinions, regardless of who likes them and who doesn’t. Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Steve

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Tim, Don’t let a bunch of wannabes get you down. Without you in the NG, this place would be empty and drool. I like the fire and brimstone that’s shoot back and forth about the various topics here. We all don’t resemble the Marlboro Man in neat tidy packages. So, who the fuck should care. Some folks (yes, old ones) just don’t like the water muddied upstream from where they’re standing. They can’t see that the water is changing and they’re even standing in it. They’re the type of people that have all the comments at the wrong time. They don’t want to listen and learn. A good example that want to share happened to me before I became of age years ago. I was the only one working a hole and had been there for several hours. I worked it from all directions and changed my strategy each time and was starting to show some action but not hooking anything. I finally hooked a stealhead (half-pounder) but he shook off right as my thumb touched the lower jaw. I went right back to my stance and now had an audience of wannabes. On my very next cast I hooked a good five pounder and somehow knew my day was over. Here I was trying to land a fish on poor tired equipment, drowning out the questions from the fishermen on the bank. What you using? How deep you? What’s your angle of drift? And so on, and made only one comment to the guys that that the fish where in close and right on the bottom. Somehow they didn’t hear a word I said or thought I didn’t know what I was talking about. When I had that fresh pink and silver up on the beach I looked behind and smiled as these two guys twice my age mucked up the hole. In short order instead listening to what I said, they proceed to go deep and spooked all chances getting a fish for the rest of the day. People only listen to what they want to hear, and then only act on a portion of that. This is a wonderful county we live in. We have the freedom to move about, disagree with the government and speak our minds without going to jail. Tim, feel free to speak what’s on your mind, as we all need a little education to grow with. Oh, by the way, the only true sports are mountain climbing, auto racing, and bull fighting, everything else are games or pastimes. Doug Knight

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: Oh, and you might wish to reconsider that open invitation for anyone to : join you fishing. I’m over in Denver and it takes very little prompting : for me to drive to your side of the divide. You wouldn’t want to wake up : at 4 a.m. to the sound of some drunken freak in a sombrero banging on : your door, demanding smoked whitefish and homebrew. Especially one over 6 feet tall. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.

I too love a good laugh, Tim, and you and I have shared many enjoyable moments both in ng’s and private e-mail.  Nevertheless, I think your assessment of your newsgroup communications is a little too generous.  I would not have brought this up on my own, but since you have raised the issue I will say that I have felt at times that you have made use of ad hominum arguments.  Since 1993, in various ng’s, I have said that mandated C&R is a management tool which works well for some sport fisheries on wild populations.  Mixtures of mandated C&R and allowed C&K work well in other fisheries.  And very liberal C&K works well in some fisheries, too.  But there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss it by saying "nothing new here, so no response."  My feeling, quite frankly, was that you simply had nothing to offer in response to my well-documented presentation. In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.  They lend themselves all too well to shouting matches.  You do add "variety and spice," but there are other good things which you could also add to r.o.f.f.  However, since you don’t want any "damned lectures"…. I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others. BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.

In fairness and objectivity, you could also post pictures of…. oh, yeah, no lectures….   Woods Hole, MA   USA

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..some valid observations snipped… Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng.

… more snipped for brevity… T-Bone, When you’re under sustained attack it can be easy to let it get you down eventually. Don’t forget that taking any stand outside of the crowd (herd) makes you a target, particularly for the lowest common denominator of which there are the greatest number. These are also the ones that seldom have anything to add other than a "me too" or to attack someone without any positive input. Thus, you have to just write off the clowns that have nothing more to say other than to let vituperative spittle dribble onto their keyboards. Many of those posts remind me of a Dilbert comic where Dilbert and Wally are having a flamewar via the net between adjacent work cubicles. Dilbert is flexing his finger muscles and says "Come on flameboy, just try me" (quote may not be exact). The point being that the net lets those that are afraid to voice an independent opinion or that consider adding a five letter word to a string of 4-letterers to be intellectual discourse to have input without fear of retaliation. You have to just let it be water off a CDC. The net is the electronic Hyde Park. Everyone has a voice (if you have a computer, the electronic soapbox, of course). Hell, even Powlesland says something interesting every 20 or 30 posts or so (statistics not verified). Those that try to shout down other voices they don’t like should not be given your full consideration. Just ignore them. It’s just white noise in the background. Jon

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(lotsa stuff deleted)

I follow the posts to roff pretty carefully and Tim’s have interested me because of the informal moderator’s role he often assumes. I for one am impressed by his generosity of spirit, civility, humor, general decency and sanity. For whatever little its worth, I think there are many sane and thoughtful roff readers who feel pretty much the same way, our various C&R differences not withstanding. And I’ll bet you that a straw poll of roff readers, were that possible, would confirm that. This ain’t exactly a private club, Tim. It has more similarity to a group of people who mostly share a common interest, discussing it on a street corner. Anyone can drift in, and some real dusies do just that. You’ve got a lot of friends and well-wishers on roff, T-Bone. Don’t let noise and rudeness from silly people get to you. You’re the spice in the food around here. From Philjack’s response: At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me. Screw ‘em…

My advise exactly, Tim. Screw ‘em like a big dog. Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

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Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.

etc….. Tim, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for about two years.  I find your posts both interesting and informative.  I know it is difficult to have people flaming you, but you just need to keep doing what you think is right.  When people give me a hard time, I remember this quote: To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.         Elbert Hubbard It helps me, I hope it helps you. Keep up the good work! Trent

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In my opinion, newsgroups have not turned out to be particularly good public forums for reasoned discussion.

I agree. I used to think the problem was the medium. That is, a person read a post, formed an opinion, and typed it, pressing Send before thinking, carefully, about each word, every idea, and their implications. Usenet anonymity, no accountability, little if any responsibility. More recently, I’ve begun to think the problem is not the medium, but the people who use it (perhaps our culture as a whole). Yes, it makes me shudder, for I see them in myself. What does this have to do with fly fishing??? Everything… or nothing at all. Mitch Red-Neck at Large

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there have been times when, in response, you have painted me as being a total C&R enthusiast, without exception.  And when I have offered C&R data from published, refereed studies, and observations made on specific fisheries which thrive under partial or total C&R management, your responses have not always been gracious.  For example, I recall one article into which I also "put a lot of work and thought," only to have you dismiss

In the spirit of debate ?  Isn’t that the difference ? If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" and you said: "Tim, you complete boob, research by Dr. Chumnfertrout states…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads" I contend that I am the object of the latter and I will not deny that I participate in the former. TimW

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If we, in an electronic discussion, or sitting in a bar and I said: "Bob, you ignorant slut…the little wahoooocheee doesn’t need TU meddling…" Is this not different then a post which reads: "Bob Golder is a Jerk, I wish he would take his fucking opinions about TU over to alt.dickheads"

Oh yes, I’d _much_ rather be called an ignorant slut than a jerk!   I _think_ you are saying that in the first example, you’re talking WITH me, but in the second example you’re talking AT me or even ABOUT me. Communication is possible in the first example, but more difficult and perhaps impossible in the second example. Whether in a bar or at a computer terminal, the next thing I’d ask you is how would TU get factored into our typical conversations about C&R vs. C&K?  Trout Unlimited is not a C&R-only organization.  TU is not even a fly fishing organization, but accepts spincasting and baitcasting, both with artificial lures and with bait.  That’s why the Federation of Fly Fishers was originally formed by people who objected to these TU policies.  Tim, I think that this illustrates another reason why some people get frustrated with you.  In the middle of a conversation about C&R, all of a sudden you might be knocking TU or cutting osier branches to paint the water for brookies (a lovely image, to be sure, but one which fetches linear thinkers up a bit short.  We can get a bit fussy when that happens.). So I think that some people are confused or possibly made angry by the freewheeling nature of your posts, as well as by the actual substance (if any!  :-) ) of your comments.  But no one should insult you or send hate mail to you as a result of your communications. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;)

I’d be careful too.  Wayne might take him up on it.  I know that my travels ever do find me in Colorado again I will most certainly try and look Tim up for a couple hours or more of fishing. : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season.

Often there might be a lynch mob merely because someone has posted something so contraversial that a lot of people disagree with it and want to express their opinion.  Tim posts on a contraversial topic and I would expect a lot of responses and I think he handles them quite well without resorting to vitriol and ad hominem attacks.  I can’t say the same thing for many of the people that disagree with him.  The other day someone declared that they were creating a killfile with Tim’s name in it.  I really couldn’t understand why someone would do that merely because they disagreed with his opinions.  If Tim presented them in a flammatory manner, attacking the people that use pure C&R rather then the practice I could understand but he doesn’t. I hope that those responsible for Tim’s posting will honor his request. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.  I have one pet peeve, that of the insanity of pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This is an attitude that I feel is gaining momentum and has about a 50% or better following amongst fishermen, based on my casual observations.   Generally (Powlesland excepted) I never, ever attack individuals and I challenge anyone to finding an ad hominum post made by me in all the years of alt.fishing and roff.  I love a good laugh and poke good natured fun at our sport and current attitudes.  I try to ad variety and spice to what I feel would be a pretty droll ng sometimes.  I offer patterns and help and have spent hours offline helping flyfishermen of all walks.   I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts here to come to western colorado and fish with me. In short, I love the sport as I love life itself. Yet lately, for some reason, my name has appeared as the subject, my email is full of hate mail and one poster even said that they were ’so sick of me’.  This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   TimW BTW – I am about to embark on several photographic journies in the new binaries group… 1) Tying sequences for Western Flies 2) real pictures of scarred old warriors from real C&R areas.  I think this a very worthwhile endeavor.   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello thoughtful readers, I put a lot of work and thought into the articles that I post here.   This last post about wishing I would stop posting altogether has broken my resolve and hurt my feelings somewhat.  These posts are almost exclusively posts from those that have never, ever posted or expressed an idea or thoughtful answer to the ng. I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   Is that too much to ask ?   At the moment, though, I am not feeling very generous towards this ng, roff, particularly these lurkers that offer nothing but complaints about me.

Having visited roff for the past few months it’s taken a while to learn a bit about the personalities who post here. It’s easy particularly in the first few visits to take posts (particularly those tongue in cheek) out of context and come away thinking that there’s a fine stock of creeps on this ng. Further there have been much unneeded barbs shot at identifable people &groups: namely GG, Rex Geirach Gary Borger ,the yuppy ff crowd and anyone who buys Orvis. Perhaps it’s good fun but someone is bound to take it personal. BEWARE those who give out should be prepared to get as good as they give. For my part I’ve got no intent to be deliberately malicious. I’d also add that over my months of browsing T-bone’s proven to be one of the more entertaining and though provoking denizens of these occassionally deep and troubled waters. Ralph H.

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: Hello thoughtful readers, : I have made a lot of friends out of would be enemies by conversing : offline, exchanging flies and even meeting face to face for some : fishing together.   I have an open invitation to anyone who posts : here to come to western colorado and fish with me. Careful, I might take you up on it.  ;) : I don’t want any damned lectures about what to post and not to post, : or how and what to say.  I ask only for fairness and objectivity : in response to my posts, which I always honor for all others.   : Is that too much to ask ?   For some people, yes.  It has been my observation that a lynch mob mentality can start when one poster starts to flame another. It’s happened to me.  Kinda makes you open season. Later, Jon Porter

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Question:

Tim Walker wrote;

ok…stay open minded for a second here… during the spawn, fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading. Theory: 1.  More of the natural spawn will survive (nailing immediate predator). 2.  Alternate species is culled resulting in better, although maybe fewer,    of these fish.3.  More fry is available to the ‘better fish’, thus

they get even better. 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving.

Nice theory but;   1.  What about the creek chubs, fallfish, cutlips minnow, longnose dace, shortnose dace, white suckes, common shiners, sculpins, stonerolllers, silverjaw minnow,bigeye chub, streamline chub, gravel chub, hornyhead chub, river chub, pearl dace,redside dace,….etc..etc.. and thats just a small example of a few "other" stream fish  from Central New York.  These will all eat trout eggs, so ya better plan on catching alot of fish.   2.  Eggs will not survive unless they are under gravel and have adequate water circulation. They will not suvive by just floating (bouncing) around the stream, and settling on the bottom doesn’t count. It takes about 145 days at 1.9 C for the eggs to hatch, thats a long time to be unprotected by a redd even if they could survive outside.  3. Why do you think trout produce so many eggs??  Brown trout eggs are typically 3-5mm in diameter and a female will produce about 800-1200 eggs PER POUND of body weight.  They can afford to lose a few.   4.  Natural mortality will kill off about 99.9% of the eggs, larva, juveniles before they reach maturity anyway. That just the way it goes. Remember you only need, on average, 2 trout to survive to maturity for each spawning pair to keep the spawning population constant.  And since some individuals will spawn in more than one year the number you need to survive in reality is less than that. 5. Your alternate competitor with rainbows theroy seems to make sense but;  where do you catch most of your rainbows ?? in the riffs right!  And where do you catch most of your brown trout; in the slower water, right! Thats because these species will naturally segregate to avoid (as much as possible) direct competition.  If there was indeed direct competition for the same habitat, there would be only one winner.  "No two species can inhabit the exact same niche at the same time and in the same place". Regards; Mark Arrigo SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry Syracuse NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week I caught my first female brown laden with eggs. She was a vigorous fighter. After bringing her to the net quickly, I released her, and then discovered eggs in my net. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks. Scott Branyan Rogers, AR — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

Do not handle them at all.How would you like to be pulled out of the bedroom during such an enjoyful act?

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fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading. 1.  More of the natural spawn will survive (nailing immediate predator). 2.  Alternate species is culled resulting in better, although maybe fewer,    of these fish. 3.  More fry is available to the ‘better fish’, thus they get even better. 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving.

Tim, I would agree about closing the beds to wading,  in fact I think they should be closed to fishing. 1.  Trout eggs are buried in gravel, only the ones that float free are eaten by other fish.  They would not survive even if the predator fish were not there. 2.  Man is not a good tool to use for culling, nature is.  Man destroys all things equally, nature removes the weak. 3.  Nature only allows 1 or 2 percent of the eggs to reach maturity in the wild, when man starts fooling around with this there is trouble.   4.  Smoked stockers is a great idea, in fact they should smoke them at the hatchery and leave our trout streams alone so we can have catch and release fishing for wild trout. Just my opinion Ernie Harrison

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: 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving. I’ll take about 4 pounds, please.  Bill my account. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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Dear Fishing nuts, Ive always found that the best way to handle a spawning fish is to begin with a light dinner… you know.. maybe take her out to wsomewhere nice… perhaps a nice big plate full of salmno fly nymphs… then, of course, take that fish out dancing and carousing… get her really into the mood.. then, well, back home for some serious spawning.. if you know waht I mean. edwin

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 Proper way to handle spawning fish?  On alternate years…CLOSE THE SEASON AT AN EARLIER DATE!!!! just my $.02 worth steve drossel Don’t know if this would be the best solution….but I don’t think it would hurt.

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Last week I caught my first female brown laden with eggs. She was a vigorous fighter. After bringing her to the net quickly, I released her, and then discovered eggs in my net. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks. Scott Branyan Rogers, AR — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

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Here’s a twist… ok…stay open minded for a second here… during the spawn, fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading. Theory: 1.  More of the natural spawn will survive (nailing immediate predator). 2.  Alternate species is culled resulting in better, although maybe fewer,     of these fish. 3.  More fry is available to the ‘better fish’, thus they get even better. 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving. Courteous replies encouraged !!! Tim Walker

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…. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks.

If you think of each of those eggs as a future large trout you’ll want them buried in the peagravel, and only the mother can do that. These large brown trout can spawn naturally without undue stress if you leave them alone at this time.  Rainbows are busy fattening up for the winter and will give a much better fight than a spawning brown, if you have any rainbow trout waters you can fish. Mark Vinsel May these eggs produce trout that break the tippets of our grandchildren. http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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Tim Walker wrote during the spawn, fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading.

(etc…) Tim, I was under the impression that eggs floating downstream are not going to survive anyway; therefore, removing the rainbows that are eating the eggs is not going to make a difference.  Am I correct? I like closing the beds to wading.  People should fish more from shore in general, especially during the spawning season. Rob

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Last week I caught my first female brown laden with eggs. She was a vigorous fighter. After bringing her to the net quickly, I released her, and then discovered eggs in my net. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks. Scott Branyan Rogers, AR — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

The best way to handle a spawning trout is to not catch it, but if you do, leave the fish in the water (not using your net) and unhook the trout or cut the leader. I usually try to avoid handling of the fish anyway which works very well except in very strong current. Maybe we should think about not fishing for spawning trout to preserve the populations (That means also not wading in parts of a river where trout spawn!). Only my personal opinion                             Thomas

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Question:

Todd,     Visit Kaufmanns in Tigard try some parking lot casting and get a catalog. You might consider one of their schools.  The Anglers Club of Portland meets at the East Bank Saloon on the 2nd thursday of every month…not a bad place to start meeting people.  Members include many local and some national fishing luminaries.  I think Jim Shollmeyer, local guide, much published photographer and author will be speaker.                             Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

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FWIW, on the Portland aspect of this thread there are lots of f.f. videos in the Multnomah County Library system; my college roommate learned to cast from the ones he checked out at the brach near us (I can’t remember the name, how sad…  Capitol Hill?  near PCC-Sylvania).  I expect the main library would have a listing of titles.  There are even fish in Johnson Creek in Milwaukie if you have a free evening– don’t know if I’d keep them to eat, but fun to chase if you don’t have time to leave town.   Also lots of toxic bass/panfish in the Columbia slough and some of the little lakes on Sauvie’s Island. Enjoy- — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University        Dept. of History                 "Nothing interesting occurred today…"         -Meriwether Lewis at Ft. Clatsop, Oregon, Jan.4th, 1806

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Fujinaka) writes: Do I take a class?

The short answer is yes.  It will save you years of trial and error and frustration.  It will also save you from spending lots of time correcting bad habits that you developed on your own.  I would recommend that you get instruction from a FFF Certified Fly Casting Instructor, or get references from from former students of a non-certified instructor.  Fly fishing clubs can be a good source for instruction though quality of instruction can be erratic. Do I watch a video?

 I would recommend a few:  "The Essence of Fly Casting (vol.1)"  by Mel Krieger. IMHO the best casting video so far.  Has little fishing info in it but a great treatise on casting.  "Skills of Fly Fishing" by Gary Borger. Gives lots of great info on equipment, knots, fishing a dry, nymph and streamer fly, all about water types, etc.   The weak point in this video is the casting, get the Krieger video for that.  Another good one that has been around for quite a while is "Anatomy of a Trout Stream" by Rick Haefle.  Even though he squints into the sun while he’s talking to you, the info is very good. Do I go to the expensive store in downtown Portland and let them have their way with me?

Depends on how they treat newbies.  If they realize your value to them as a long term customer, they will get you the best bang for your buck.  If not, they will try to sell you the moon.  Ask around about the reputation of the shop.  There are plenty in your area if the downtown one doesn’t work out.  It’s been about 8 years since I lived in your area, but I used to do business with "Stewart’s Custom Tackle" on Halsey out by Wood Village and "The Fly Shop" in Welches (near the junction of the Salmon River and the Sandy).  Both were reputable and helpful shops.  Ask around.   Mail order from Kaufmann’s in Tigard is safe as they will take back anything you order but don’t like when it arrives.                                                       Hope this helps,                                                                    Dan

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Sounds like a candidate for the most up to date fly fishing instruction you can own, Fly Fishing the McCloud River, the computer game sold at Orvis SF and other fine fly shops.  I think it is great. Right Dan!

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I’d like to know how to get started, and I can’t find a FAQ. I’ve WATCHED a lot of people fish, especially in Japan and I’ve always wanted to learn how to fly fish. Do I take a class? Do I watch a video? Do I go to the expensive store in downtown Portland and let them have their way with me? Even more regionally, I’m in NW Portland, away from the East County stores. Maybe I should mail order? Help! So far I’ve read two short stories by Hemmingway and half of _The Orvis Fly-Fishing Guide_. Oh, and _A River Runs Through It_. And I spent several hours standing in a the John Day near Monument, OR watching a friend fish the John Day (I caught a watch, but that’s another story). Thanks for any help! — Home is where you wear your hat.

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Question:

I am wanting some suggestions for good trout fly fishing in the mountains of western north carolina.  I am new to this art and any help would be appreciated. — Michael Ebbs Center for Communications and Signal Processing North Carolina State University

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<< am lookin for information on the western half of North Carolina… In the Ashville area, the fly shop of choice for info is Hunter Banks. I like to fish the Pisgah National Forest, specifically the Davidson River but there are many other near by from GA to Va. If you want your trout easy & big the Cherokee reservation has some tribal stocked waters which they will sell you daily permits. The national park has an abundance of streams.   Also suggest the rivers in the Joyce Kilmer nat forest, as well as the French Broad around Ashville. There is also  fly shop in Cashiers and near Blowing Rock (different shop) for additional info, but the guys at Hunter Banks will give you so much info, you’ll not be able to digest it all at once. Good Luck Wayne Knight — Wayne Knight CSERVE, 71151, 2762

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Just got back from a visit to my folks in Waynesville.  Took a tour of the eastern edge of the Great Smokies.  The Catalooche, and Big Creek in that area are both good although the fish apparently can be a little picky on the Catalooche.  Both streams are gorgeous and as a rule not crowded due to relatively limited road access.

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Question:

I am a begining fly fisherman and I am going to be working in canon city, co for the summer. I will be there from May 15- August 15. I would appreciate any suggestions on good places to fish, shops for flys, and approximate times of good hatches. In other words any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance. Paul

You’ll be living right by the headwaters of the Arkansas River, which has some decent trout (so I’ve heard, haven’t gotten down there yet). Also, you won’t be too far from the South Platte, which is pretty famous for awesome catch & release only, artificial flies & lures (barbless hooks) only fishing. The South Platte will be about 1.5 to 2 hours drive from Canon City, either north into Colorado Springs and then West on route 24 to Woodland Park, and north on route 67 to Deckers, or continue through Woodland Park to Lake George, and go up Elevenmile Canyon road (3 dollar access fee you pay at a self-serve station), to the river. I’m still new at the insect hatches, so can’t give you anything of value in that area. Pick up a copy of the Colorado Angling Guide when you get here, or before if you can find it. It’s got a nice collection of Forest Service maps of the areas. As for shops, I know the Angler’s Covey on 8th and West Colorado Ave in Colorado Springs is a great place for fly fishing supplies and advice, although you should be able to find something in Canon City as well, use the yellow pages. — Scott Ferguson                               My views are not necessarily Cray Computer Corporation                    those of Cray Computer Corp.

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I am a begining fly fisherman and I am going to be working in canon city, co for the summer. I will be there from May 15- August 15. I would appreciate any suggestions on good places to fish, shops for flys, and approximate times of good hatches. In other words any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance. Paul

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Question:

| |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well | I couldn’t have said it better myself, and, you beat me to it! Not only is it more and more difficult to find a  male fishing partner as we all (stretch) get on in years, but such a female companion is amost an oxymoron.  One of these days I would really like someone to prove me wrong on that point…nudge,

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| |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well | I couldn’t have said it better myself, and, you beat me to it! Not only is it more and more difficult to find a  male fishing partner as we all (stretch) get on in years, but such a female companion is amost an oxymoron.  One of these days I would really like someone to prove me wrong on that point…nudge, Believe me, we exist!

Peggy                             "A friend walks in when everyone                                    else walks out"

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|   | Believe me, we exist! |   | Peggy                             "A friend walks in when everyone |                                    else walks out"    At least my faith has been restored  Now, if I can just find y’all (must be looking in the wrong    places, or hell, maybe it’s just me!) and catch a few trout this weekend, life’ll be perfect!    On another note, anyone out there know anything about the fishing conditions on the Perquimans River    in eastern NC?  I was telling someone about this river (used to be GREAT fishing on it, especially in    creeks) but it’s been years since I’ve been there…Last time I was the grass was so dense it was    real hard to fish thru…It used to go in cycles, a few years full of duckweed, a few years of almost    no grass, then back to tons of seaweed…How is it these days?  I’d hate to recommend a place that’s    difficult to fish…                                                         — scott

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| |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well | I couldn’t have said it better myself, and, you beat me to it! Not only is it more and more difficult to find a  male fishing partner as we all (stretch) get on in years, but such a female companion is amost an oxymoron.  One of these days I would really like someone to prove me wrong on that point…nudge,

Never they are out there to be found!! My wife is an example she loves rock hunting, spelunking(caving), fishing , hunting , camping, everything I always wanted. Don’t give up they are there. —    Spike                                 "Life is fun enjoy while you can"                                           I enjoy short-term "Investing"!

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Hi, I’m female and I love to fish! I even put the worms, live bait, etc. on the hook, and I even take the fish off the hook     myself (except for if it has big teeth!).  I’d rather be fishing right now!   Carol

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| Hi, | | I’m female and I love to fish! I even put the worms, live bait, etc. on the hook, and I even take the fish off the hook     | myself (except for if it has big teeth!).  I’d rather be fishing right now!   |   | Carol    Damn, and I live in Virginia!!!  ;-)                                 — scott

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| That s rry on the bride and groom and the bass boat is nothing…. | Oops, typo….story that is…. | I proposed to my wife during a moose hunting trip in northern Quebec (she | said afterwards she’d want it no other way).  She allows me to spends huge | amounts of money for hunting/fishing gear, and usually outshoots me at | grouse hunting.  But fishing…..now that’s where she comes to life!  You | take her fishing in the surf and camp on the beach.  She’s up before dawn | and waits until it’s light enough to see, and only returns for lunch and | when it gets dark!  And that’s even if the water’s dirty and nothing’s | biting!  She just won’t quit!  When a shark started taking fish off my | stringer, she just moved away from me.  She busted a rod last year on a | sting ray.  She almost always outfishes me, and sometimes guys are out | there trying to see what colors of plastics she’s using BEFORE she starts | catching them.  She plans on trying a little fly fishing in the surf this | year.  The only time she’s tried it was in Vermont with me, when she ended | up taking a swim in February.  The mild case of hypothermia didn’t faze her | one bit.  If somebody is hardcore, she’s it.  It’s scary.  And it’s that’s | not enough, she’s "model-quality" beautiful, and finishing her last year | of her veterinary degree at LSU so she can earn far more than I do.  Why | she loves me I’ll never know   |       | Andre |     fishing AND backpacking AND caving AND biking AND…oh well     By the way, anyone from Va have any suggestions for what flies might work     this coming weekend, besides the ole standbys?  Going out Sunday and need     to replenish my flies (lost 1, broke 1 and 3 came unraveled last week)…     I saw what looked like a mayfly while I was hiking but I’m not sure…I     haven’t decided if I’m going to the Bullpasture or somewhere in the     Shenendoah…                                         — scott

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