Question:

If the Guardians win in court, or if the government settles, the number of

cows a rancher is allowed to graze with his permit is cut. That hands the Guardians a double victory: Not only does the land get a breather, but the rancher has to pay much more to feed his displaced cows on private land. Interesting concept that "free market"  Sounds like the ranchers prefer a Socialist type system.

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east…

Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses. Thomas Gilg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east… Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses. Thomas Gilg

Also what has to be remembered is that the ranchers who won’t be able to afford higher grazing fees will be the smaller family operations. The bigger ones will be able to absorb any increased costs. By most accounts grazing is a problem ( a huge problem in some instances) along the riparian corridors out west but it is also problematic if the solution only brings about the demise of family ranches to the benefit of the huge multi-national conglomerate run outfits. No one said this was going to be easy. George C.

Response:

 What our outdoor wildlife inventories need is the total removal of all livestock that steal their food and habitat. Why? Because wildlife is more valuable to a state’s economy as it is to the Federal Economy. Allowing grazing on Federal (PUBLIC) lands to individual ranchers is stupid economics. George G.

Response:

|

| I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of | depopulation in rural communities back east… | | Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was | several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners | were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does | appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider | myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I | also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring | in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an | opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend | (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – | I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend | lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off | (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to | move that land into less intensive uses. | | Thomas Gilg | | | | | Also what has to be remembered is that the ranchers who won’t be able to afford | higher grazing fees will be the smaller family operations. The bigger ones will | be able to absorb any increased costs. By most accounts grazing is a problem ( a | huge problem in some instances) along the riparian corridors out west but it is | also problematic if the solution only brings about the demise of family ranches | to the benefit of the huge multi-national conglomerate run outfits. | | No one said this was going to be easy. | George C. | That may be true, too. The reason my grandfather specialized, was to devote more acres to one crop, to be able to absorb the fixed overheads. But even he had just 500 acres. My father struggled to make money. I refused to take over – it was clear at an early age that it simply COULD NOT be profitable, because of/despite the (socialist) policies of the Common Agricultural Policy, dreamed up by the EU. These same policies were actually intended to protect the family farm. In reality they destroyed it. Q. How far do we go, to protect the family farm? The French have split their farms between 2 (or more) sons for generations. Now they have 100-acre farms that are mere subsistence farming. On an environmental tack – I would prefer to see people grazing farm land that is already farm land & lacking farmers, rather than grazing the more fragile environments often (but not always) found on federal lands. Take the money farm managers pay and use it to encourage farmers to take up the land that has been converted from it’s natural state, into My family were TENANT farmers. After my father & his brother retired, the farm was bought from the landlord & is now actually profitable. Q. HOW – by finding a niche. The current farmers don’t try to compete with the large managed farms. They run an organic farm – even the wool is organic. They don’t need help competing, because they specialisze. I suspect the family-ranchers here in the SW USA will have to also find a niche.

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

| I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze | that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? | | In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an | incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real | cattleman, you’d change your tune. | | George– | This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments | regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern | Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his | calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their | calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 | years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are | basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and | cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable | to support their families. I grew up on a farm in England – we raised beef without ANY cheap grazing. We found a way – we rented permanent pasture, that was atop historic monuments (and couldn’t be ploughed), we housed steers in the old milking parlour during the Winter (after a milking herd ceased to be profitable), but we NEVER had grazing land subsidised by the taxpayer. We made a living growing beef. Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of | public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families | who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in | case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on | public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your | bread.  Don’t be such a twit. | | Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder | and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. | — | Tight Lines! | Brian D. Nelson | Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana | www.diamondnoutfitters.com | |

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

|  What our outdoor wildlife inventories need is the total removal of all | livestock that steal their food and habitat. | | Why? | | Because wildlife is more valuable to a state’s economy as it is to the | Federal Economy. | | Allowing grazing on Federal (PUBLIC) lands to individual ranchers is stupid | economics. | | George G. | | | | | | | When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | — That’s why I advocate using funds collected from grazing federal lands be used to induce ranchers to use land that has already been converted to farming.  I’d rather convert from arable to grazing land, than forest/prairie to grazing land ! I don’t accept that it’s a choice between cattle & tourists – it’s more of a choice between cattle & migrants. But if we convince ranchers to move East onto arable land, we come closer to both protecting our fragile environments AND providing beef at competitive prices (compared to Argentinean beef). P.S. I remember paying $9 a pound for beef in the UK – beef was one of the most expensive forms of meat. But now I pay $9 a pound for Stilton cheese instead (I paid $3-4 a pound for Stilton in the UK).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east… Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses.

That approach is far too thoughtful and intelligent for the hard core greenies to comprehend, let alone follow.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

<When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. What if some of us don’t bother to eat that brown shit?

Response:

If it’s brown – you’re cooking it wrong !

| <When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | | What if some of us don’t bother to eat that brown shit?

Response:

It’s "If it’s brown it’s down."  Food from grist for the mill. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If it’s brown – you’re cooking it wrong ! | <When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | | What if some of us don’t bother to eat that brown shit?

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

The other night at terminal 2 Heathrow the last flights of the day were abnormally busy. The queue for the non  European passport holders was taking about 90 to 120 minutes to get through, and consisted of a mix of all nationalities. I happened to be in the immigration hall and stayed to monitor the queue. On five occasions I was approached by a person coming from an area between Canada and Mexico and the conversation went along similar lines. "Are you in charge here", "No and I’m nothing to do with the immigration service" where upon I was given a mouthful of abuse on how to run things and one person went as far a spitting on me. While these examples of how a certain nationality behaves when it travels abroad was going on I kept looking at a rather tall gentleman towards the back of the queue who seemed vaguely familiar. It wasn’t until after he had left politely wishing us a good evening that I realised it was a very well known Aussie tennis player, who now doubt had he asked would have been fast tracked but he didn’t and just waited with everyone. Seems the Aussies can behave a lot better than certain others. — Lansbury LHR(T2) www.uk-air.net

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

Really ??? JT: agreed LOL DuHasse! risking a lil less endowment by the dork dictionary ROFL

Response:

 I will definitely fly QANTAS next time…peace, quiet, kids kept under control, not staring into the balding head of the person in front whilst trying to eat lunch….definitely sounds like my sort of airline.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Quite! sounds like the usual ‘family from hell’ who cannot control children or dicipline them or keep them quiet, why the hell should we suffer because of their unruly behaviour, Good old Qantas staff,  we need a few more of them around in this day and age of unruly parents and kids. martin

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Well known fact in airline circles, the reason that Qantas has a higher number of male -well built flight attendants on the Asia/London routes is to get the ozzies well inebriated on their beer before Singapore, and then they sleep the way to London without much more bother, those that do make it, are well dealt with by the *heavies* on board.

QF male FA’s are well – known in gay circles for being *very* cute.  Dating one is a "catch"…. — Best Greg gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

Response:

I’ve long thought that now smoking is banned on almost all carriers that it is long past time that children and their unruly parents were sat at the back of the cabin.

I have been seated across the aisle from a baby and even right next to a baby on another flight (bulkkead, middle section). All were very long flights (10+ hours). And none were a real problem. In the case of the baby across the aisle, I remember it being entertaining in the morning because the baby was really cute and trying to grab passengers waiting in line to go to the bathroom. It was entertaining. Perhaps I have been lucky, and I realise that perhaps some babies are noiser than others, but I doubt that a baby would cry for 10 hours nonstop. For shorter flights though where a significant portion of the flight is the descent, I guess one could state that the baby bcried most of the way.

Response:

five occasions I was approached by a person coming from an area between Canada and Mexico and the conversation went along similar lines. "Are you in charge here",

In all fairness to the folks between canada and mexico, there are some of them who are nice educated tourists. The problem with those is that by their nature, you do not notice them. And if you only notice the loud impolite ones, then you do get a very bad image from the tourists of that country. Seems the Aussies can behave a lot better than certain others.

I think that Kiwis would disagree with that statement, especially when they refer to Sydneysiders. Does the expression "loud and brash" ring a bell ? Every country has bad tourists. But I agree that people from certain countries expects to be treated like kings and don’t accept that folks do things differently in different parts of the world. And those tend to stand out. But when you think about it, Parisians should be thankful of McDonalds and EuroDisney. Those tourists would tend to go to McDonalds, thus enabling good restaurants in Paris to remain free of such tourists

Response:

I’ve long thought that now smoking is banned on almost all carriers that it is long past time that children and their unruly parents were sat at the back of the cabin. I’ve never thought it alright to have someone else’s brat inflicted on adults for any amount of time, let alone a long haul flight. It’s even worse when you get one in the premium cabins from where in my opinion anyone under the age of 16 ought to be banned! For several years at check-in I’ve stated that I don’t mind where I sit as long as there are no children in the adjoining rows, I know a few people who now do the same – maybe the airlines will listen!

I find that when parents, who really have no business being parents, allow their children to run amok and laugh as the little shits pester people, change their attitude rather quickly when they hear someone say "If someone doesn’t get these little cunts under control they’re going to be short a few kids" and the kids are miraculously whisked away (they suddenly remember that they are parents and have a job to do). Maybe it’s not the politest of ways to handle such a situation, but hey, it’s not polite to inflict your kids on other people either.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Quite! sounds like the usual ‘family from hell’ who cannot control children or dicipline them or keep them quiet, why the hell should we suffer because of their unruly behaviour, Good old Qantas staff,  we need a few more of them around in this day and age of unruly parents and kids. martin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved). Quiet and well-behaved when you have had two complaints already?!!! I DON’T THINK SO MATE! You’re just a wee bit delusional there. I’ve had too many experiences with children sitting next to me that finally I’ve decided to have the ‘no thanks, no more children next to me’. All the worse experiences have been there from this little girl who wanted to go the toilet screaming her head off when we were about to land (BA Madrid-London), to a group of four children taking all the middle seats and since I was flying alone I had to be seated next to them while they played seats switching UNTIL finally this little brat (oh how  children are cursed by one rotten apple) spilled his orange juice all over me while I was fucking sleeping (BA/QA codeshare Sydney-London) . Nah in this regard, keep your fucking children well-behaved. Especially in long flights. And rest assured I won’t be taking any of my children on any long flights until they reach their teen years. Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. LOL

I’ve long thought that now smoking is banned on almost all carriers that it is long past time that children and their unruly parents were sat at the back of the cabin. I’ve never thought it alright to have someone else’s brat inflicted on adults for any amount of time, let alone a long haul flight. It’s even worse when you get one in the premium cabins from where in my opinion anyone under the age of 16 ought to be banned! For several years at check-in I’ve stated that I don’t mind where I sit as long as there are no children in the adjoining rows, I know a few people who now do the same – maybe the airlines will listen! Pete.

Response:

on an Aussie woman

I think you mean "in". The answer is probably … average… for an Australian.  ;) D.

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Well known fact in airline circles, the reason that Qantas has a higher number of male -well built flight attendants on the Asia/London routes is to get the ozzies well inebriated on their beer before Singapore, and then they sleep the way to London without much more bother, those that do make it, are well dealt with by the *heavies* on board. martin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

says… I must admit that I have done the trip from the UK a few times and the Quantas service was not the best.We normally fly Singapore.

(Craig Welch impression on) Pity.  You may want to try Qantas instead. (Craig Welch impression off)

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him. So how big is the average dick on an Aussie woman?

Youre gay!

Response:

Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him. So how big is the average dick on an Aussie woman?

Our women aren’t like the women you’re used to, they don’t have dicks, and we like it that way!

Response:

Quite! sounds like the usual ‘family from hell’ who cannot control children or dicipline them or keep them quiet, why the hell should we suffer because of their unruly behaviour, Good old Qantas staff,  we need a few more of them around in this day and age of unruly parents and kids. martin

It sounds like a Troll to me, and not a very good one. Herdy.

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

So how big is the average dick on an Aussie woman?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Reminds me of the words of Charles Luckman: "The trouble with America is that there are far too many wide open spaces surrounded by teeth."

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

One of the main reasons I moved from the UK to Adelaide,South Australia was due to the people and their attitude. I suppose the lousy weather and cost of living does make a lot of Brits miserable – but there are many good un’s. I have never felt so welcome as when in Australia , people are so welcoming and helpful ( just started fishing and I have had loads of offers to teach me ). Perhaps the people who complain about Aussies and Brits should mix with them a little more. I must admit that I have done the trip from the UK a few times and the Quantas service was not the best.We normally fly Singapore. Russell — — auSEElife Run by migrants -for migrants Lot 11 Penneys Rise,Onkaparinga Hills,SA 5163 ICQ 119580733, Yahoo Messenger:russ1926,Fax +61 8 8186 1538

Response:

seem ur kids must be a right snob maybe ..view it from the other viewpoint of pax .. most kids can be quiet and stuff but maybe ur wasnt? look outside the circle… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you expect when you take kids on a plane.  Most people want to have a QUIET relaxing flight. Not have screaming bloody kids jumping up and down infront of them. You people with kids should for once in your lives consider that a lot of people dont actually like kids and find them rather annoying. You must have just picked the two worst lots of flights then cos I can tell you Qantas is on of Aus’s best airlines. My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Q

Response:

seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).

Quiet and well-behaved when you have had two complaints already?!!! I DON’T THINK SO MATE! You’re just a wee bit delusional there. I’ve had too many experiences with children sitting next to me that finally I’ve decided to have the ‘no thanks, no more children next to me’. All the worse experiences have been there from this little girl who wanted to go the toilet screaming her head off when we were about to land (BA Madrid-London), to a group of four children taking all the middle seats and since I was flying alone I had to be seated next to them while they played seats switching UNTIL finally this little brat (oh how  children are cursed by one rotten apple) spilled his orange juice all over me while I was fucking sleeping (BA/QA codeshare Sydney-London) . Nah in this regard, keep your fucking children well-behaved. Especially in long flights. And rest assured I won’t be taking any of my children on any long flights until they reach their teen years. Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

LOL

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

Response:

What do you expect when you take kids on a plane.  Most people want to have a QUIET relaxing flight. Not have screaming bloody kids jumping up and down infront of them. You people with kids should for once in your lives consider that a lot of people dont actually like kids and find them rather annoying. You must have just picked the two worst lots of flights then cos I can tell you Qantas is on of Aus’s best airlines. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Well, well … the gospel according to something that calls itself

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Know all the Brits then do you? well Thanks for tarring us all with the same – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

In San Francisco, some years back, a woman was arrested because she had a live hand grenade in her purse. There was a fishing line leading from her belt to the pin, so that if someone snatched her purse, it would shortly explode, killing the purse snatcher. While I do not feel too bad about the purse snatcher, as the police pointed out, there might be considerable carnage among innocent bystanders. I don’t remember what the legal outcome of the case was, probably an "illegal possession" charge. Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just to support an earlier statement… see men leave the privates alone…… Mike A Purse-Snatcher’s Worse Nightmare? ROME (Reuters) – Being caught and surrounded by an entire rugby team may just be one of a purse-snatcher’s worst nightmares. And yet, it happened for real to a man who snatched a woman’s purse in the northern Italian city of Bologna. The snatching happened close to a hotel where Serie A teams Benetton Treviso and Fly Flot Cavisano were about to hold a news conference. The pickpocket was spotted by two Benetton team members who ran after him, Italy’s Rugby Federation said in a statement. The two — Andrea Gritti and Massimiliano Perziano — are both full internationals. Lock forward Gritti is two meters tall and weighs an imposing 107 kg while winger Perziano is one of the quickest players in the country. The purse-snatcher, followed by the two players, sought refuge in a kindergarten, which was quickly surrounded by the whole Benetton team. The man was arrested a few minutes later by police. Benetton Treviso and Fly Flot Cavisano are due to play the decisive game for the Serie A championship title on Saturday. All opinions expressed are mine unless otherwise noted. Copyright

Question:

attend the clave at that time of the year. It’s *the* busy season for me. Tearfully, please scrub my name from the list….. Walt Sorry th hear that you won’t be able to attend due to work. Please don’t forget to send your lovely wife to represent the Winter family. Big Dale

how the hell did wayno get on to yer machine bd? waldo

Response:

attend the clave at that time of the year. It’s *the* busy season for me. Tearfully, please scrub my name from the list….. Walt

Sorry th hear that you won’t be able to attend due to work. Please don’t forget to send your lovely wife to represent the Winter family. Big Dale

Response:

Sorry th hear that you won’t be able to attend due to work. Please don’t forget to send your lovely wife to represent the Winter family. Big Dale

And Big Dale being the consumate Southern Gentleman that he is will be sure Marie does not lack in frozen alcoholic concoctions with paper umbrellas and all manor of Cajun inspired culinary contrivances. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

1.  Likely dates and number (Wife, SO, kids, etc.) of attendance.

Just me and the dates you suggest, I will be there. 2.  Desired "target" (Fresh, Salt, Both, Whatever’s there – also, indicate any interest in "bluewater" offshore game fishing.)

I would love both fresh and salt water, but I have not salt water gear….ummm honey, Richard wants to talk with you…Would it be possible to rent salt water fly equipment or would my 7 weight and old Pflueger work OK? I could get the maid to rinse it out each night for me. 3.  If you wish assistance on travel, let me know your location and nearby airports (or ones you can live with).

My closest airport is Portland, Oregon PDX… 4.  Contact information.

If I die, send my ashes to my current spouse of 26 years at: (360) 944-7601 5.  Where you prefer to stay if you want assistance in this area.

A dirt cheap hotel/motel would be great, but not rented by the hour if you know what I mean… As to where we all go, I think you should decide, Oh Clavemaster.  Besides I don’t speak the local language anyway, I will need an interpretor.  How do you say "No Budweiser, por favor" in the local tongue. I would love a budget suggestion for motel, car rental (do I need one?), licenses, equipment rental (if applicable), stuff like that… Chris Fanning

Response:

The current name is: Crawlin’ in N’Awlins 2000: Toasted on the Coast My suggestions for the name: Mardi Clave Clavi gra

The Fat Clave?  Er, is that in Kilobrandos?  <G  I suspect some atttendees might not like that…. Clave Slogan: "Show us your tips!"

Now that is good!  I like it…. Clave Mission Statement: "Sure, we could have chosen any number of world-renowned fly fishing venues, but getting smashed in the Quarter is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity."

Or I could just rewrite "Tubthumper"… "We’ll be drinkin’ And some fishin’ But mainly drinkin’ We’ll fall down, but we’ll get up again, Ain’t no one gonna keep us down…" Wayne Harrison has kindy offered to serve as a "Co-ClaveMeister," This does not suprise me.

It so unnerved me I said yes…<G.  Seriously, as I had no experience and limited time, his help is appreciated.  Plus, it gives me a scapegoat…<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —Steve    2025

Response:

Richard, Upon reflection, sadly, thar ain’t no way in hades that I can attend the clave at that time of the year. It’s *the* busy season for me. Tearfully, please scrub my name from the list….. Walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As it appears this is developing into a shore ’nuff clave, here are some further details.  I will be gathering further info, such as specifics on hotels, fishing and general info websites, etc. this week and will keep y’all informed. The current name is: Crawlin’ in N’Awlins 2000: Toasted on the Coast but suggestions are welcome…<G. The dates will be from basically Dec. 1, 2000 until December 8, 2000. The locations will be New Orleans, LA and Biloxi/Gulfport, MS.  Wayne Harrison has kindy offred to serve as a "Co-ClaveMeister," and we are asking all interest parties who have not yet done so to email me with the following infomation: 1.  Likely dates and number (Wife, SO, kids, etc.) of attendance. 2.  Desired "target" (Fresh, Salt, Both, Whatever’s there – also, indicate any interest in "bluewater" offshore game fishing.) 3.  If you wish assistance on travel, let me know your location and nearby airports (or ones you can live with). 4.  Contact information. 5.  Where you prefer to stay if you want assistance in this area.  Those wishing to camp on our land may do so, but there will likely be no plumbed water or electric hookups – more on this later – if you wish to camp, PLEASE let me know ASAP.  Of course, there are many public campgrounds available, and if we have campers interested and need help here, let me know.  Also, if you have budgetary concerns, let me know, and I’ll keep that in mind with recommendations. I had originally thought about half the time in the NO area, and half on the MS coast, with a possible side trip to AL, but the distances are such that it is possible for one to stay in either location and participate (about 1.5 hr. from NO to Gulf Coast) in many of the activities. There are several charter airline companies that offer discount packages to the MS Coast, and several casinos offer them as well, with the Grand Biloxi – Grand Gulfport and Beau Rivage likely offering the most.  I will have more info on this as well. Another welcome addition is the participation of the Mississippi Coast Fly Fishers.  I have talked to their President, and we will work together to plan at least some group activities.  This would allow a larger circle of potential new friends, and attendees to have access to local guides and boats. These are the people I am aware of currently expressing an interest.  If you are interested and missing, or added in error, please email me. Walt Winter Wayne Harrison Jeff Miller Tom Brown John Lever (LEEver) Charlie Choc Chris Fanning Frank Reid ? Big Dale ? Those with question marks have expressed an interest via post, but I have not received an email.  Please let me know… TC, R

– Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

The current name is: Crawlin’ in N’Awlins 2000: Toasted on the Coast

My suggestions for the name: Mardi Clave Clavi gra Clave Slogan: "Show us your rods!!" or "Show us your tips!" Clave Mission Statement: "Sure, we could have chosen any number of world-renowned fly fishing venues, but getting smashed in the Quarter is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity." Wayne Harrison has kindy offered to serve as a "Co-ClaveMeister,"

This does not suprise me. –Steve    2025

Response:

As it appears this is developing into a shore ’nuff clave, here are some further details.  I will be gathering further info, such as specifics on hotels, fishing and general info websites, etc. this week and will keep y’all informed. The current name is: Crawlin’ in N’Awlins 2000: Toasted on the Coast but suggestions are welcome…<G. The dates will be from basically Dec. 1, 2000 until December 8, 2000. The locations will be New Orleans, LA and Biloxi/Gulfport, MS.  Wayne Harrison has kindy offred to serve as a "Co-ClaveMeister," and we are asking all interest parties who have not yet done so to email me with the following infomation: 1.  Likely dates and number (Wife, SO, kids, etc.) of attendance. 2.  Desired "target" (Fresh, Salt, Both, Whatever’s there – also, indicate any interest in "bluewater" offshore game fishing.) 3.  If you wish assistance on travel, let me know your location and nearby airports (or ones you can live with). 4.  Contact information. 5.  Where you prefer to stay if you want assistance in this area.  Those wishing to camp on our land may do so, but there will likely be no plumbed water or electric hookups – more on this later – if you wish to camp, PLEASE let me know ASAP.  Of course, there are many public campgrounds available, and if we have campers interested and need help here, let me know.  Also, if you have budgetary concerns, let me know, and I’ll keep that in mind with recommendations. I had originally thought about half the time in the NO area, and half on the MS coast, with a possible side trip to AL, but the distances are such that it is possible for one to stay in either location and participate (about 1.5 hr. from NO to Gulf Coast) in many of the activities. There are several charter airline companies that offer discount packages to the MS Coast, and several casinos offer them as well, with the Grand Biloxi – Grand Gulfport and Beau Rivage likely offering the most.  I will have more info on this as well. Another welcome addition is the participation of the Mississippi Coast Fly Fishers.  I have talked to their President, and we will work together to plan at least some group activities.  This would allow a larger circle of potential new friends, and attendees to have access to local guides and boats. These are the people I am aware of currently expressing an interest.  If you are interested and missing, or added in error, please email me. Walt Winter Wayne Harrison Jeff Miller Tom Brown John Lever (LEEver) Charlie Choc Chris Fanning Frank Reid ? Big Dale ? Those with question marks have expressed an interest via post, but I have not received an email.  Please let me know… TC, R

Response:

Question:

Hi, I maybe heading to the Lower Deschutes during the third week in May.  Does anyone know what I can expect as to the fishing that time of year ?  What hatches, river levels etc.,  What weight rod would be the best ?  Any recommendations to local advice/fly shops. Thanks in advance.

Response:

Hi, I maybe heading to the Lower Deschutes during the third week in May.  Does anyone know what I can expect as to the fishing that time of year ?  What hatches, river levels etc.,  What weight rod would be the best ?  Any recommendations to local advice/fly shops. Thanks in advance.

WIth snow levels this year, I think you can probably expect high water; snow pack is about double a normal year. A 9 foot, five weight rod with a floating line will work for most situations you’ll encounter on the Deschutes. Deep nymphing is the most consistently successful method on the lower river. The salmonfly hatch should be getting started, as well as the golden stoneflies. BIG, heavily weighted stonefly nymphs in black and gold. Black and golden stimulators for the adults. Caddis: Rhyacophilia, hydropsyche, Glossoma, Brachycentra: larvae, pupae, and adults. Mayflies: Baetis, Heptagenia, maybe some early PMDs. Midges. Local shops: The Deschutes Canyon fly shop in Maupin, The Fly Fishing Shop in Welches.

Response:

Question:

I fish in Mexico now and then around Rocky Point, in the upper Sea of Cortez. My wife and I like wading and casting to sea trout and pompano but the last two trips my wife stepped on a sting ray, which really put a damper on the rest of our fishing (her’s and mine). I’m curious to know how others have solved this problem.  I’m looking at Cabella’s flats wading bootie.  It seems like it protects the bottom of your foot and your toes but a big sting ray could still whack your upper foot and ankle (yeeeouch!). Any ideas?

Response:

I fish in Mexico now and then around Rocky Point, in the upper Sea of Cortez. My wife and I like wading and casting to sea trout and pompano but the last two trips my wife stepped on a sting ray, which really put a damper on the rest of our fishing (her’s and mine). I’m curious to know how others have solved this problem.  I’m looking at Cabella’s flats wading bootie.  It seems like it protects the bottom of your foot and your toes but a big sting ray could still whack your upper foot and ankle (yeeeouch!). Any ideas?

 I have never seen or heard of anything that you can put on your feet short of steel shoes that will stop a ray’s point from going through your foot when you step on them.  The best way to avoid stingrays when you are in the area is to shuffle your feet instead of picking them up and stepping around like you normally would.  I learned this when I used to dive.  You never stepped down onto sand without fluttering your feet first.   When you walk in areas that have rays just shuffle your feet (which will leave a mud trail behind you) and it will scare the rays away before you step on them.  If there is a current, make sure you are walking into the current so the mud goes behind you instead of in front of you.  Rays are not hostile and will not attack you, but they hide themselves in the sand and can put that barb onto any part of their back that you step on in an instant.  Not a lot of fun and they are difficult to spot when so hidden.  The neoprene boots offered by Orvis, Cabela’s, Simm’s, Glacier Glove, etc. will not protect you from this problem.  Lazy feet will protect you.  No need to buy anything, just change your habits when you *think* rays are in the area.                            Hope this helps,                                     Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

Thanks, Dan, for your post regardng sting ray proof wading shoes.  I wish the news was better.  I’m sure your’e right that rays can poke though the neoprene part of flats booties.  But what about the rubber sole and the rubber part over the toes and top of the foot?   Interestingly, both of my wife’s stings were on her big toe (ouch!)  Seems like something as hard as tennis shoe rubber ought to top ‘em.  These are pretty small rays, maybe as big you our outstreached hand and fingers. Let me know what you think. Thanks again.

Response:

Thanks, Dan, for your post regardng sting ray proof wading shoes.  I wish the news was better.  I’m sure your’e right that rays can poke though the neoprene part of flats booties.  But what about the rubber sole and the rubber part over the toes and top of the foot?   Interestingly, both of my wife’s stings were on her big toe (ouch!)  Seems like something as hard as tennis shoe rubber ought to top ‘em.  These are pretty small rays, maybe as big you our outstreached hand and fingers.

It’s possible it might stop such a small ray.  Never seen one that size.  The ones I’ve had experience with were about 3 feet wide across the wingtips and it wouldn’t even slow them down.  They put the barb through the top of the much harder rubber swim fins like it was butter and then went though the diver’s foot besides. One diver wasn’t so lucky and the barb missed the top of his foot slicing his leg open instead.  Not a pretty sight.  This happened while diving around the Santa Barbara Channel Islands (Anacapa & Santa Cruz Islands).  Convinced me to practice the "lazy foot" method in any area sting rays might be found.                                       Good Fishing,                                             Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

Response:

I agree with your ‘lazy foot’ recommendation. I’m not sure if that is why I haven’t been stung but am going to keep it up anyway. Charlie…

Response:

I fish in Mexico now and then around Rocky Point, in the upper Sea of Cortez. My wife and I like wading and casting to sea trout and pompano but the last two trips my wife stepped on a sting ray, which really put a damper on the rest of our fishing (her’s and mine). I’m curious to know how others have solved this problem.  I’m looking at Cabella’s flats wading bootie.  It seems like it protects the bottom of your foot and your toes but a big sting ray could still whack your upper foot and ankle (yeeeouch!). Any ideas?

I heard they wade in the Texas gulf with some kind of shin guards. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fish in Mexico now and then around Rocky Point, in the upper Sea of Cortez. My wife and I like wading and casting to sea trout and pompano but the last two trips my wife stepped on a sting ray, which really put a damper on the rest of our fishing (her’s and mine). I’m curious to know how others have solved this problem.  I’m looking at Cabella’s flats wading bootie.  It seems like it protects the bottom of your foot and your toes but a big sting ray could still whack your upper foot and ankle (yeeeouch!). Any ideas? I heard they wade in the Texas gulf with some kind of shin guards. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Down here in Texas we call them land-mines. The shuffle step works just fine but if you are really worried they do make a hard plastic guard which wraps around your leg and rests on top of your shoe. I think the idea came from snake chaps used by folks in rattlesnake country. RAT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fish in Mexico now and then around Rocky Point, in the upper Sea of Cortez. My wife and I like wading and casting to sea trout and pompano but the last two trips my wife stepped on a sting ray, which really put a damper on the rest of our fishing (her’s and mine). I’m curious to know how others have solved this problem.  I’m looking at Cabella’s flats wading bootie.  It seems like it protects the bottom of your foot and your toes but a big sting ray could still whack your upper foot and ankle (yeeeouch!). Any ideas? I heard they wade in the Texas gulf with some kind of shin guards. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Down in Texas we do have shin guards for wading. But the best way is to shuffle your feet. A ray is prone to thinking that anything bumping it is probably another ray, but anything stepping on it is probably something out to, well, step on it! BTW, a friend of mine had shin guards on and was hit in the back of the calf. Shin guards now cover front and back of leg.

Response:

Question:

-Does anyone have any info on a new disease appearing in Irish frmed salmon called Nervous Mortality Syndrome? Has it spread to any wild stock? Wild Fish First Socety C Mckee

Response:

Actually, its a hangover.

Response:

. sfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.dire c

Question:

Bob, how about…. You don’t feel self-conscious in the doctor’s waiting room with a size 12 Cream Variant in the top of your head. You see nothing unusual about standing in water so cold that ice rings are forming around your legs. Now pass the head cement, I need a hit! Steve

Response:

…….    Criteria for FFA membership: …….    (5) Your wife helps you pluck the feathers off a road-killed grouse and  knows enough not to tell anyone about it.

Respectfully requesting the second word of criteria #5 be changed from "wife" to "spouse".  The tagalong-if-he-has-to part of the family dislikes being called a "wife" and he has even managed to scrounge peacock feathers for me.                         —Jewelee

Response:

Jewelee — Right on … will make the change as noted. (PS: I should have been more thoughtful. I certainly never considered my spouse a tag-a-long … she outspots me and every guide in the Keys. and outfishes most anglers) Welcome to the FFA. THANKS….BobE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …….    Criteria for FFA membership: …….    (5) Your wife helps you pluck the feathers off a road-killed grouse and  knows enough not to tell anyone about it. Respectfully requesting the second word of criteria #5 be changed from "wife" to "spouse".  The tagalong-if-he-has-to part of the family dislikes being called a "wife" and he has even managed to scrounge peacock feathers for me.                         —Jewelee

Response:

snip (9) You know the latin names of all the major insect hatches on your home stream, but you can’t remember your kids’ birthdays.

snip Your kid’s name is Caddis. Ross Wilson

Response:

snip (9) You know the latin names of all the major insect hatches on your home stream, but you can’t remember your kids’ birthdays. snip Your kid’s name is Caddis. Ross Wilson

Or Windknot.

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Geeze … and I thought I was clever when I nicknamed my kid "Lefty." BobE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip (9) You know the latin names of all the major insect hatches on your home stream, but you can’t remember your kids’ birthdays. snip Your kid’s name is Caddis. Ross Wilson Or Windknot.

Response:

snip (9) You know the latin names of all the major insect hatches on your home stream, but you can’t remember your kids’ birthdays. snip Your kid’s name is Caddis.

On the other hand, maybe it’s really Rhyacophila! -Burton

Response:

Ok…you guys are in, but when are your kids’ birthdays? I know one of my kids was born about 23 days after the opening of trout season, but can’t remember the other three.BobE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip (9) You know the latin names of all the major insect hatches on your home stream, but you can’t remember your kids’ birthdays. snip Your kid’s name is Caddis. On the other hand, maybe it’s really Rhyacophila! -Burton

Response:

Having concluded that fly fishing is an addiction, I am starting a NP-organization called Fly Fishing Anonymous (FFA). We’ll have our first annual meeting somewhere appropriate (how about So. Andros Island in May?). Anyone who meets the following criteria can join. (Since this is the first posting, please feel free to add your own suggestions for membership. All reasonably addictive behaviors will be considered as eligibility for membership.) Thanks…BobE., Rochester, NY Criteria for FFA membership: (1) You currently have callouses and line cuts on both index fingers. (2) You own at least six hook hones. (3) You don’t feel self-conscious standing in line at the checkout of a crowded discount store with six bottles of Sally Hanson’s hard as nails. (4) You know why Hunt Valley has displaced Cockeysville as the center of the flyfishing universe. (Hint: See Bernard’s new business card.) (5) Your wife helps you pluck the feathers off a road-killed grouse and knows enough not to tell anyone about it. (6) You have expired fishing licenses from 4 or more states. (You get to be president if all four of the licenses are valid.) (7) Bob Berger and Chet Pryor know you by your first name. (8) You not only know the rational behind the sizing system of fly tying thread (size A to 9/0), but you also know what the sizes relate to in actual diameters. (9) You know the latin names of all the major insect hatches on your home stream, but you can’t remember your kids’ birthdays. (10) You have fished alone from 11 pm to 8 am in both freshwater and saltwater. Other suggestions are more than welcome. Thanks. BobE.

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Question:

Ron,   Try a bright light green, cream, orange, or hot pink glo bug and sink the fly so it drifts drag free across the bottom. Also try some bright colored western spey flies and steelhead flies. There is a person named Helvie that wrote a book on steelhead flies, look through that also . —

Response:

  On the Puyallup river in Washington State I have seen several people    I have only seen one fly fisherman on this river and wonder   why?                                          Thanks Ron

    Ron – You don’t see many trying to flyfish the Puyallup River because, by the time the steelhead arrive in the Summer or Fall, the river is floured (like coffee with cream).  Once the snow melt on the glaciers is done and we start getting ice melt, only stink baits really work well on this glacier-fed river. The glaciers have volcanic ash in them that "flour" the water.                         – Jewelee                           Puyallup, WA

Response:

On the Puyallup river in Washington State I have seen several people using spincasting gear with spinners to catch Steelhead.  I am new to fly fishing and am hooked.  I know I will never be a worm fisherman again!!!!  I would think that a fly rod would do a awsome job on this river.  I have only seen one fly fisherman on this river and wonder why?  I am going to try this weekend and would like any suggestions on types of flies and patterns to use?  The spinners that I have seen people use have had bright orange on them.                                        Thanks Ron

Response:

Ron,    I have not fished the Puyallup yet, but I tie a wooly bugger pattern with black marabou and flashabou, and an orange marabou that are more successful overall than the classic Skykomish Sunrise, etc. An advantage for me is that they are easy to tie and when I lose one, it’s not like losing an art treasure. email me about your success. I could send you some flies in exchange for good wading locations. good luck!    Jack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On the Puyallup river in Washington State I have seen several people using spincasting gear with spinners to catch Steelhead.  I am new to fly fishing and am hooked.  I know I will never be a worm fisherman again!!!!  I would think that a fly rod would do a awsome job on this river.  I have only seen one fly fisherman on this river and wonder why?  I am going to try this weekend and would like any suggestions on types of flies and patterns to use?  The spinners that I have seen people use have had bright orange on them.                                        Thanks Ron

Response:

Question:

I’m just getting in to the sport and could use some advice on rod selection.  I’ve been looking at the Sage Discovery systems #5 9′ pack rod 4 piece, I think.  This seems to be the best rod for the things I’ll be doing (i.e. backpacking, fishing Montana, OR, WA in the summers and New England in the Fall and Spring) my dilemma is this: EVERY retailer I’ve called has had an "outfit" price of precisely the same amount, that is $280.  I’m a little surprised that there is literally NO variation in price.  Is this normal?  Am I calling all the wrong places or all the right ones?  Is this a good beginner rod that I’ll be able to grow into? I was thinking of going to the Orvis store in Boston this weekend and seeing if they had anything comperable, although from what I can tell Orvis looks to be the Nordstrom of fly fishing gear.  Is this a correct assessment?  Will Orvis have an outfit in my under $300 price range or will I be sneered out of the store by snotty, AMEX gold wielding yuppies?  Any advice you can give will be helpful.  Thanks in advance, Jack

Response:

Well, first no I wouldn’t expect to find any bargains at an Orvis shop. It’s great stuff, but pricey. I’m building a rod for light salt water, an 8-9 weight and I got a St. Croix Imperial blank for $60.00. Now of course it’s not a Sage, but I’ve tried out the 2 piece versions and I think they’ll do just fine. The finished rods go $130 – $140 on the 7-1-93 – 6/30/94 price list, can’t imagine they’d be much higher. Couple this with a nice Medalist reel and you’ll be in business for under $200. Spend the change on a weekend trip.

Response:

Peter… I would have to disagree with your assessment of the sage sp being less forgiving than the RPL’s.  The RPL’s action is so much quicker that your timing must be very precise, whereas the SP flexes in a manner ‘that could be categorized as medium,id est more forgiving and easier to throw.  Unfortunately this ease of castability comes at a price.  I took the dive and bought the 3 pc. 8wt. and a 9 ft. 4wt. ( pro deal) and would recommed them both particularly the 4 wt.  FOr those without positive cash flow or pro pricing ( who should this be addressed to anyway?)  and especially a beginner, you cannot go wrong with any of the large manufacturers.  In the end its all a matter of taste.  I’ve thrown MANY rods and have my own opinions which I would be glad to share with anyone who wants to hear them.  One last thing… I know of a custom rod maker in FLagstaff Arizona, Steffan Brothers, who make some of the best blanks and rods in the business and they are reasonably priced too. I have their number and can get them at a discount.  GOod Luck and tight lines! Henry

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