Question:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

  George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

Response:

Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

On the subject of trolling, I posted a rather obviously titled post last week, in which I described trollers using a fishing analogy. They are in it to see what they can catch – they like seeing how many people they can get to respond or get annoyed. The sad things is that the trolls that seem to catch all the attention are the ones that are about as subtle as dynamite fishing. It can be quite enjoyable to follow a troll thread if it started as fly-fishing and is cuningly crafted, but that is not usually the case – people continue to chase the sticks of dynamite that float down through the pond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…..I don’t necessarily advocate reporting obvious trolls, as generally they will get bored and move on independently (as long as people tend to ignore them). People who stay for the sole purpose of harassing individual members of a group, or who engage in activities counter to the charter or FAQ (if existent) are fair game for anyone, though. You reap what you sow, and that sort of thing. —   Annette http://www.technogirl.net

Response:

did i say you can’t have an opinion? where did you see that in my comment? besides your off topic

off topic as it is – the debates about who – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – should say what are the longest threads on the NG – is it a case of talk one idea, do another – by the way – the net is not private, nor is it free – and the stupidity that surrounds the topic of what can  and can’t be said, is not much different than the constant nikon, minolta pentax abusiveness and brand loyalty name calling Carl, Complaining about threads that are seen to be off topic is part of the debate. Just as people on rec.photo.equipment.35mm can use the forum to complain about each other, so may others point to the fact that the NG’s main aim (in their minds) is to discuss 35mm equipment. I am not trying to exercise censorship but am exercising my right to an opinion. I cannot and would not want to stop this NG from evolving into rec.photo.bickering if that’s what people want. But surely I am allowed to have my say in the development. PT

Response:

i find it interesting that – off topic as it is – the debates about who should say what are the longest threads on the NG – is it a case of talk one idea, do another – by the way – the net is not private, nor is it free – and the stupidity that surrounds the topic of what can  and can’t be said, is not much different than the constant nikon, minolta pentax abusiveness and brand loyalty name calling

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

Response:

should say what are the longest threads on the NG – is it a case of talk one idea, do another – by the way – the net is not private, nor is it free – and the stupidity that surrounds the topic of what can  and can’t be said, is not much different than the constant nikon, minolta pentax abusiveness and brand loyalty name calling

Carl, Complaining about threads that are seen to be off topic is part of the debate. Just as people on rec.photo.equipment.35mm can use the forum to complain about each other, so may others point to the fact that the NG’s main aim (in their minds) is to discuss 35mm equipment. I am not trying to exercise censorship but am exercising my right to an opinion. I cannot and would not want to stop this NG from evolving into rec.photo.bickering if that’s what people want. But surely I am allowed to have my say in the development. PT

Response:

You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship.

Are you comparing your private property with the usenet? There are private email lists. You can create one anytime you like. Just go to topica.com or onelist.com. Then it will be all yours and you will be the dictator. But here, you are not- this is not your private property. And of course there are moderated lists. This is not.

Response:

PLONK !!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity. Neil — There’s a disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must  have misused the term "prime lens" again. Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price. — Joe  Zorzin

Response:

Joseph Zorzin skrev: Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity.

It is not that simple. Freedom of speech does not mean the right to cause other people costs, for example. SpeedOfDarkness type of sustained personal attacks would *never* happen in the free press, nor would a magazine feel that it was his right to get a free page now and then to display his message. I don’t belive radio stations or TV channels would think they was obliged to send his rants either. My problem (a very small problem, mostly of principal nature, not practical) is that I can’t choose to not listen, that is,  I pay the cost of conveying the message, not SOD – and I have no real control over that cost. This is a Internet type of problem that wasn’t foreseen by the founding fathers, likely. I mean, what would you like to pay for your photo magazine page by page, not knowing if the next page is reasonably on topic or just a advertisment or a lunatic personal vendetta ? The ‘Net is remarkably anarchistic and "free", but there are conventions that better be followed anyway. — Anders Svensson

Response:

Steve skrev: Am I missing something here?  Since when is the Internet "private property?"

It is the combined property of those owning the infrastructure, and those who use it. Anarchy’s positive side is that anything can be tried once, the backside is that the sanctions can be weird, unusual and painful as they are not balanced by legislative and judicial forces. — Anders Svensson

Response:

Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people,

No. Freedom of speech is not about annoying people, and just repeating the same insults day after day, week after week, flooding the newsgroup with that juvenile crap, has nothing to do with freedom of speech. within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything.

Try it and see. Depending on the city, you may or may not be able to get away with that. There are laws against making a nuisance of yourself. Other people have rights too, including the right not to be pestered continuously by someone who is just trying to bother them. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment.

No, it is not. You are trivializing an important right if you think it is there to enable people to annoy other people. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage.

How do you know? Are you authorized to decide what does or does not hurt or damage other people? When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity.

On the contrary, your post shows yours. It is only the very juvenile who believe people have some "right" to annoy other people. Neil — There’s a terrible disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must be misusing the term "prime lens" again.

Response:

Am I missing something here?  Since when is the Internet "private property?" But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship.

The servers, man, the servers all belong to somebody.  Many are the property of public universities–and those do have the right to limit what is stored on them.  Others are wholly private, owned by companies or private universities in most cases.  Some others are owned by non- US governments that don’t have the First Amendment. — Kirk "Nothing is foolproof. Fools are too ingenious" -RAH <I really am at home if you want to reply by e-mail

Response:

You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything.

But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship. — Kirk "Nothing is foolproof. Fools are too ingenious" -RAH <I really am at home if you want to reply by e-mail

Response:

Am I missing something here?  Since when is the Internet "private property?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But you can’t position your soap box on the private property of someone who doesn’t want you there. If he kicks you off his property and tells you to set up your soapbox on your own property, that is *not* censorship.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity.

That isn’t really the point. The "first amendment" argument implies that everyone must by necessity be in the US, which is ridiculous. The Internet is global. The only rules that matter are the ones put in place by an individual’s provider (your comment "within some limits"), and they are not bound by any first amendment claims (even US providers), since they are private entities.  Every ISP has an acceptable use policy that prohibits certain types of acitivites. Earthlink has an AUP which includes the following: (Under items that constitute a violation of Eartlink’s AUP) d. Harassment. Using the Services to transmit any material (by email, uploading, posting, or otherwise) that harasses another. … m. News. EarthLink Members should use their best judgment when posting to any newsgroup. Many groups have charters, published guidelines, FAQs, or "community standards" describing what is and is not considered appropriate. Usenet can be a valuable resource if used properly. The continued posting of off-topic articles is prohibited. Commercial advertisements are off-topic in most newsgroups, especially regional groups not specifically named for such. The presence of such articles in a group is not indicative of the group’s "intended" use. Please familiarize yourself with basic USENET netiquette before posting to a newsgroup. I don’t necessarily advocate reporting obvious trolls, as generally they will get bored and move on independently (as long as people tend to ignore them). People who stay for the sole purpose of harassing individual members of a group, or who engage in activities counter to the charter or FAQ (if existent) are fair game for anyone, though. You reap what you sow, and that sort of thing. —   Annette http://www.technogirl.net

Response:

Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech."

Sure it does. That’s what freedom of speech is all about- the freedom to annoy people, within some limits. You can stand on a soapbox on the street corner and rant on all you want about anything. That will annoy lots of people. But that’s the first amendment. Messages that you don’t like aren’t really hurting you any, they aren’t causing you any damage. When you complain about such things; that shows your immaturity. Neil — There’s a disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must  have misused the term "prime lens" again. Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price.

– Joe  Zorzin

Response:

Most of the questionable material is not offensive, but it can be annoying. However,  I don’t think that a sender’s ISP would have any basis to intervene.

It should be in the ISP’s terms of service, but responsible providers will not tolerate their members spamming anyone, including newsgroups, and especially not with abusive and offensive off-topic posts. One person’s spam is another person’s treat and I get nervous about wholesale restriction of these posts. That is not in the internet spirit either. The best solution: If the thread is annoying to you, don’t read it.

The offender in this case has already gone far beyond what any ISP should tolerate. The fact that he now has taken to changing his name here for the express purpose of preventing annoyed users from filtering him out, puts him well beyond the bounds of what anyone should be willing to tolerate. Neil

Response:

Maybe we should rename the NG. Something like rec.character.assasination? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

Response:

Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price.

Response:

Oh, please. It’s not "censorship" or anything remotely like that. There’s a big difference between censorship and stopping someone from deliberately annoying all the users in a newsgroup every day for weeks on end. As for "ignoring" him, that’s what filters are for, but he started changing his name for the express purpose of defeating such filters. He has been determined to annoy people, and his posts have had no other goal or content. That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech." Neil — There’s a disturbance in the Force, Luke! Somewhere in the galaxy, someone must  have misused the term "prime lens" again.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Censorship is not the answer. Ignoring is. Freedom of speech comes with a price.

Response:

I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

Response:

Most of the questionable material is not offensive, but it can be annoying. However,  I don’t think that a sender’s ISP would have any basis to intervene. One person’s spam is another person’s treat and I get nervous about wholesale restriction of these posts. That is not in the internet spirit either. The best solution: If the thread is annoying to you, don’t read it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, there is something offended individuals can do.  Sorry about the fact that I am posting this three times on different threads, but all the threads deal with the same problem of flaming and spamming going on in this newsgroup.  I wanted to be sure people know that abuse addresses exist for a reason, and should be used when they really need to be.  Clearly, this NG has been abused, thus, people should make official complaints about it.  Posting "please stop" will not stop these individuals.  Writing their ISP might, however. Actually, the complaint email address you mention is not private or secretive. If you look at the full headers for any of speed’s posts, you will find that the really want to lodge a complaint, you must forward copies of his offending threads WITH FULL HEADERS to the abuse email address you mentioned.  Only if you do this will Earthlink be able to find out exactly who he is and how to stop him — if they care, which it is possible they won’t.  Earthlink is a very large organization, and they will not likely disable his account with only one complaint.  It will require numerous emails to Earthlink from others like you who have been spammed and flamed by this individual.  Without the full headers, however, Earthlink will have no idea who he is.  You’ve made a good first step, however.  I am also sending this to another newsgroup to which he has offended as well. I think it is a real shame that individuals like "speed of darkness" have so much time on their hands to bring down the quality of the internet and the flow of free communication and speech.  And if they do have that much time, that they choose to spend it the way they do.  Unfortunately, there is little that we can do about it but complain. Truthfully, the only way to really deal with it, other than lodging complaints to the organization he comes from, is to just ignore his posts.  He replies when you reply, and that’s how these unending threads of flaming and spamming get started.  True, he is to blame largely for this whole mess, but we dont’ have to play along with it. I encourage anyone who has been seriously bothered by his posts to send a Earthlink will take care of it, as it is in their hands. Andrew Stoeckley I for one am sick of the way this NG is being abused by idiotic small boys who want to use it for their imbecile games. The purpose of this group is to discuss 35 mm equipment. Unfortunately 35mm is about the size of some contributors’ brains. Let’s get back to camera talk please. The little boys can continue their backbiting elsewhere. Please don’t abuse net freedom by subjecting the rest of us to your infantile behaviour. Patty

Response:

Question:

Sink tips as well as full sinking lines come in a variety of sink rates.  If your not getting down as deep as you like, you might just need a higher density line. The experts I have read say that the advantage of a full sinking line, is that it  stays in the strike zone longer.  This is because the sink tips are hanging down at an angle, so that the fly is being pulled up. Some times this can be an advantage though.  My fishing buddy has done great on a sink tip with a carry special and a chironomid trailer. — Terry Robinson Visit me at http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfisher23/  Terry’s Fishing and Writing place

Response:

Kind of depends on whether you are fishing moving or still water. With a fast sink tip in moving water, the ‘angle’ is not a factor. All of the sinking portion is under, along with butt, leader and tippet (6′ to 8′), and streamer ( I don’t ever nymph with a sinktip!). Not much (at most 10 or 20 feet) of your running line (that would be the non-sinking portion of the fly line for those ‘equipment-ally challenged’ out there) would even be off the reel, allowing pretty good control over the mending and stripping that would be taking place. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sink tips as well as full sinking lines come in a variety of sink rates.  If your not getting down as deep as you like, you might just need a higher density line. The experts I have read say that the advantage of a full sinking line, is that it  stays in the strike zone longer.  This is because the sink tips are hanging down at an angle, so that the fly is being pulled up. Some times this can be an advantage though.  My fishing buddy has done great on a sink tip with a carry special and a chironomid trailer.

Response:

Hi Claude, I don’t like sinking tip as you have a curve in the line and you can’t really feel what happen around the fly. 6 to 10 feet in average?  With a floating line, an intermediate and a number 3 (or 2) sinking line, you are set for most of the conditions. Philippe http://fishing.ifrance.com * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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This year I want to try fishing a little bit deeper. hoping to get the big trout if the dry flies don’t work… I had all kinds of different answers so I hope the experience fly of this group can help. some said a sinking tip will be enough other full sinking  line???? Fishing on a small lac, deepest in the middle 20 feet. average 6 to 10 feet. If I stay on the same spot and fish from shore to middle I have used the sinking tip and look ok but never seems to go very deep or deep enough to get the big old trout ? I know for sure there are some big one, a diver saw a couple very nice rainbow…at the bottom. if trolling slowly, does the full sinking line will be to heavy or ok? I plan to use it on a 5wg rod. Thanks in advance for all your help Claude

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The faster you troll, the shallower your line will stay due to the friction/planing of the line. A full sinking line should be fine at those depths if you troll slowly. You might even wish to use a very dense loop on sinktip extender (mini sink tip) in addition to your sinking line. Good luck rtw if trolling slowly, does the full sinking line will be to heavy or ok? I plan to use it on a 5wg rod. Thanks in advance for all your help Claude

– Remove "zzz" from address if emailing direct.

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Question:

Slainte ! MC

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take- elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno

If I remember correctly (and it’s tough) PJ only used two.  A royal coachman and any old nymph as a dropper.   Makes life simple. Peter

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BTW, I’ll do my best to raise a glass to your health this weekend when some roffizen probates are in town….hell, I’ll do my best to raise a glass to each and every roffizen –waldo…takin’ liver pills

thank you sir.  I’ll toast you as well from the far fields of PA. Mark Faulkner

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take- elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph. wayno

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No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number.

    fly selection is darwinian. wayno

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If you had to list ten flies elk hair caddis(tan); royal wulff; female adams; kauffman’s royal stimulator; royal trude; parachute blue-winged olive; letort hopper; prince nymph; squirrel tail nymph; montana nymph; pheasant tail nymph.

Wayno, quit usin’ your toes to count to ten. That extra one down on the end gets you in trouble every time. A most excellent list, but some would make room in the top 10 for a yellow humpy. — Ken Fortenberry

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Who? Darwin? You gonna’ listen to your friends or to the trout? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No Lt. Cahill, hare’s ear or terrestrials? Can you explain your selection understanding ten is a short number.     fly selection is darwinian. wayno

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If you had to list ten flies to fish Western North Carolina streams year round, what would you take-

An experts

Question:

Late Sunday morning, he’s puttin’ on Teva sandals. That means one of two things, either he’s going to wash the car or maybe, just maybe. Best to follow him around and see what he’s up to. Poking around in the study, this is a good sign. What’s this ? He’s grabbed a fly rod, WE’RE GOIN’ FISHIN’ !

Back to the "taking dogs fishing" thread, are we?  Nice report, Ken. Mark Faulkner

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Late Sunday morning, he’s puttin’ on Teva sandals. That means one of two things, either he’s going to wash the car or maybe, just maybe. Best to follow him around and see what he’s up to. Poking around in the study, this is a good sign. What’s this ? He’s grabbed a fly rod, WE’RE GOIN’ FISHIN’ ! Kipper’s my good fishin’ buddy, he’s a shelter mutt and when we adopted him he was 16 lbs of gangly puppy and the Humane Society told us he was a pointer mix. He looks more like a long legged fox hound to me, but now at not quite 3 years of age and a healthy 60 lbs his pedigree is less important than proper canoe etiquette. We had plenty of opportunity to practice yesterday. Right after we put in a big blue heron took exception to our presence and flew off with a whoosh of the wings and a disdainful squonk. Paddling through the twisty passage between Donut Pond and Highway Pond we surprised a deer that went crashing through the brush and rounding a corner on the far edge of the pond we came upon a nonchalant racoon that by turns ignored us and taunted poor Kipper with a casual strut. He did OK, there was some squeaking, of course but no full throated barking and no running about in the canoe. Much better behavior in contrast to just a few weeks ago when mama goose, papa goose and the little goslings almost caused a capsize. Even after I sternly told him "ENOUGH" and quieted the barking he still felt it necessary to continue grumbling sotto voce at the geese. I caught a bunch of bluegill on a yellow foam ant and a feisty little 1.5lb bass to boot, nice fun on a 3wt. Put the bass back, cleaned up the bluegill and put them in the freezer for the big fish fry. — Ken Fortenberry

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Question:

C’mon you people, admit it, let share some carp on the fly stories.  These stalwart fighters have been much maligned over the decades regarding their worth as a worthy adversary. I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.   (Have tried steelhead type egg flies with little success for starters).

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C’mon you people, admit it, let share some carp on the fly stories.

These stalwart fighters have been much maligned over the decades regarding their worth as a worthy adversary. I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.   (Have tried steelhead type egg flies with little success for starters). Danezen,  A friend and I caught a number of carp of 3 to 5 pounds on #14 GRHE in clear quiet water.  Fished the fly with a slow finger winding retrieve.  They make a lot of noise splashing as the hook is set and the first 3 minutes are a good fight…. then it is a down and dogged pull without much character to it until you bring them to net… Seem to lack the stamina of a salmonid. Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.  

In the absence of other fish, Carp is King. In the presence of other fish, carp is an abomination.

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I have had some success using maribu jigs with hackle bodys, fished off docks and presented like you would to a trout. them buggers can be alfull picky. lots of fun on 2 pound line. The guy crappie fishing next to me about had a heart attack when I landed a 6 pounder on 2 pound line. bright colors seem to help. crashawk

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A number of years ago, I was fishing 11 Mile Reservoir for Pike. I was casting a large black Bunny Fly that had been very successful for me netting me a number of Pike up to twenty pounds. I was fishing a wind swept shoreline from a belly boat & was casting into the roiled water near the bank, retrieving the fly back into the clear. The Pike I had been catching were sitting right at the edge of this line. I made a cast very near the shore & thought that I had snagged. Then all hell broke loose. Following a huge swurl, the fish took off like a freight train running toward the middle of the lake. With an eight weight & a heavy leader, I was unable to slow the fish. When I reached my backing, I turned around, held my rod above my head, & kicked as hard as I could to keep the fish from taking all the line. I followed the fish as well as I could, without being able to gain any line. Finally just when the spool was nearly empty, it stopped. I regained some line by getting right over the fish. Then the work began. For what seemed to be a half hour, I followed the fish, got towed by him, gained line, lost line. I felt I had hooked a CO record pike.I finally gained enough line that I saw the fish. I was *VERY* dissappointed when I saw it was a carp. When I finally landed it, I guestimated it at over twenty pounds, similar in weight to some of the bigger pike I had caught. Over the next few days, my mind kept going back to the battle with this fish. I was probably the most exciting, hard fought battle I’d had with a fish. This turned around my thinking about carp. I now fish for them with dries when they’re surface feeding, & will fish for them with nymphs etc. I find that small flies, as a whole, fish better.   Willi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – C’mon you people, admit it, let share some carp on the fly stories.  These stalwart fighters have been much maligned over the decades regarding their worth as a worthy adversary. I know some of you have forsaken the Trout for the coarseness of what’s still considered in Europe as a noble Fish. The Carp.  Philosophical retorts as well as pragmatic advice on how to catch the suckers is welcome.   (Have tried steelhead type egg flies with little success for starters). There is a story in the current California Fly Fisher about sneak fishing for large carp in ponds in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. Written by Seth Norman with photos by Valentine Atkinson. He scored on egg flies. The fish were spooky. The proper camoflage would be to dress as a bum and cast a short rod from a park bench.

Laugh.  I really miss my subscription to that magazine but I no longer live in California.  If you (the generic you) live in California, and you flyfish,  I highly recommend a subscription to the magazine. -Mark Vinsel BTW, in case this rare willingness to write on your favorite quarry inspires you to want to subscribe, Cal FFer can be reached at: P.O. Box 40429 San Francisco, CA,  94140 (415) 284-0313

At one time they had an email address as well but were having trouble with their service provider and I haven’t seen anything from them in a long time.  I had a good feeling about them when I first subscribed to the magazine and they apologized for not getting back so soon because the staff was out fishing. John Fereira

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Question:

  What is fishing well on the Metolius these days – March 17?? I thought it was closed?? I don’t really know if it is open or closed. It usually fishes well in June and September.

Nope, it’s only closed above Allingham Bridge.  Of course that’s my favorite water, especially in the winter, but I gladly conced because there was too much damage to the banks. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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   What is fishing well on the Metolius these days – March 17??    Many thanks,    john manotti

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  What is fishing well on the Metolius these days – March 17??   Many thanks,   john manotti

I thought it was closed?? I don’t really know if it is open or closed. It usually fishes well in June and September. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

I will be going to Orlando for a quick business trip in Feb. Does anyone know of any flyfishing opportunities in that area?

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Do it right…take the time to go to the Keys and do some real Bonefishing!! Orlando is for DW.!! I will be going to Orlando for a quick business trip in Feb. Does anyone know of any flyfishing opportunities in that area?  

E.mail Options:

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I will be going to Orlando for a quick business trip in Feb. Does anyone know of any flyfishing opportunities in that area?

Almost too many to mention:  Try fishing for big reds and black drum in the No Motor Zone, Banana River.  Might call Rod Smith, 407/777-2773.  He’s a good guide.  Or Warren Hinrichs, he’s the best in that area 904/268-2208.  Warren’s an ex-Orivs guide for the area. This is canoe or sail in, only.  But they catch 30 lb. redfish and equal size drum.  Beautiful area.  Or go to the West Coast and contact Tommy Locke.  Don’t have his number but any of the fly shops in Orlando would help you dig him up. Good luck, David.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO FISH THE S.PLATTE RIVER NEAR DECKERS COLORADO LET ME KNOW I CAN SHOW SOME GREAT PLACES TO FISH… ALSO IF YOU NEED LODGINGS I CAN GIVE YOU A NUMBER FOR LODGING RIGHT ON THE RIVER!!!!! I will be in Denver around May 1 and have several days to fish.  Would like to fish the S. Platte, but worry about the crowds.  Which section do you recommend: the Decker’s section or Cheesman Cyn?  Would it be better to go elsewhere to avoid the crowds, e.g the Frying Pan knowing I’ll waste half a day getting there?  Are there other streams near Denver that offer good fishing and more solitude?  Would appreciate your advice.

If you’re willing to drive from Denver to Basalt (Frying Pan), you’ll cross several good rivers, and actually drive along about 100 miles of fine water.   Beyond Eisenhower Tunnel, there’s The Blue, and just over Vail Pass there’s Gore Creek and the Eagle River, just to name a few.  Crowds are less a problem the farther west you travel (until you get to the Frying Pan).  Time is the question, however.  If you’re not familiar with these areas, and you’re based in Denver, you will spend most of the day driving.

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IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO FISH THE S.PLATTE RIVER NEAR DECKERS COLORADO LET ME KNOW I CAN SHOW SOME GREAT PLACES TO FISH… ALSO IF YOU NEED LODGINGS I CAN GIVE YOU A NUMBER FOR LODGING RIGHT ON THE RIVER!!!!!

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IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO FISH THE S.PLATTE RIVER NEAR DECKERS COLORADO LET ME KNOW I CAN SHOW SOME GREAT PLACES TO FISH… ALSO IF YOU NEED LODGINGS I CAN GIVE YOU A NUMBER FOR LODGING RIGHT ON THE RIVER!!!!!

I will be in Denver around May 1 and have several days to fish.  Would like to fish the S. Platte, but worry about the crowds.  Which section do you recommend: the Decker’s section or Cheesman Cyn?  Would it be better to go elsewhere to avoid the crowds, e.g the Frying Pan knowing I’ll waste half a day getting there?  Are there other streams near Denver that offer good fishing and more solitude?  Would appreciate your advice.

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Advice is usually worth what you pay for it, but having been in Co. for 22 yrs let me share my thoughts: 1. N. Platte is not only crowded, but very tough!! Need to have a great deal of skill to walk away with a good day. 2. The Pan is great that time of year, but also can get crowded.  If your interested, give me a call and I’ll fax a map of a few little know spots on the Pan where the crowds won’t get in your way. 3. Parts of the Blue below the resv. can be good. 4. Do you want just Rivers or are you able to belly boat? 5. There are a few spots on the Roaring Fork that are good w Green Drake coming off in late May. Hope this helps…. (Dick Fischer) writes:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO FISH THE S.PLATTE RIVER NEAR DECKERS COLORADO LET ME KNOW I CAN SHOW SOME GREAT PLACES TO FISH… ALSO IF YOU NEED LODGINGS I CAN GIVE YOU A NUMBER FOR LODGING RIGHT ON THE RIVER!!!!! I will be in Denver around May 1 and have several days to fish.  Would like to fish the S. Platte, but worry about the crowds.  Which section do you recommend: the Decker’s section or Cheesman Cyn?  Would it be better to go elsewhere to avoid the crowds, e.g the Frying Pan knowing I’ll waste half a day getting there?  Are there other streams near Denver that offer good fishing and more solitude?  Would appreciate your advice.

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Question:

From an avid fly-fisher living in the worst fly-fishing area in the world: HELP! Living in eastern Kansas, (having come from western Montana), the only trout I have heard about in this area are lake trout in Lake Shawnee near Topeka, KS. My question is:  Is there a way to fly-fish for lake Trout?  Won’t they more  than likely be bottom feeding?  How do I get down to them without having to (gag) bring out my spinning reel?  Am I just out of luck?                         BK Devlin

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You’re not going to like this but you can only do well on lakers when the water temps near optimum up top.  Unless you use uranium core sinking lines.  It’s switch to carp.  They hit Italian dry flies — cubes of bread — nicely and fight like freshwater bonefish.   It’s only a couple of days to Idaho. — ** Louis Bignami, Publisher         http://www.finefishing.com Fine Fishing Internet Magazine                "largest fishing mag on the Net" **

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