Question:
[snipped] Great story. I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here 
Response:
……On Saturday at a Back Yard Burger I saw four young Elvises (Elvii) getting out of a powder blue 1962 Buick convertible.
The dude DOES get around. He spends his days picking up trash at Children’s Hospital of Wisconsin, here in Milwaukee. Wolfgang i guess the king of rock-n-roll biz ain’t what it used to was.
Response:
Great story. I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here
TAKE A SHOWER ALREADY! 
mEMPHIS jIM No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week.
Response:
says… Great story. I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here TAKE A SHOWER ALREADY! mEMPHIS jIM No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week.
thanks. I was wondering what I stepped in… — Rob (but have you gone by Graceland…)
Response:
Actually that’s not true. On Saturday at a Back Yard Burger I saw four young Elvises (Elvii) getting out of a powder blue 1962 Buick convertible. Memphis Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week. thanks. I was wondering what I stepped in… — Rob (but have you gone by Graceland…)
Response:
Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.
BTW, TBone, I forgot to mention the graylings… hehe
Response:
Is that you, Frank?
No sir. Not Frank. Ben. -bh
Response:
Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.
Response:
Is that you, Frank? No sir. Not Frank. Ben.
It tis nice to see others with a single minded devotion to the fish. Hey, so what if you get a bit messy, you got a fish and these guys are just dreaming of getting some. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.
Response:
Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.
You clearly know the place, what I’ve been tiold by the F&G guys that patrol the area is that the ponds are and have for some time been dumping grounds for stock. Big bass, yes. I’ve lifted an 18 inch large mouth out of the back pond on a #10 krystal bugger tied to 6X tippet and a 4wt rod. I’ve also taken more than a number of catfish ON THE SURFACE using smallish, bright white upwing something or others (I forget exactly) from the first pond. Sunfish, bluegills, small mouths, big mouths. The place is like a proving ground for fly tackle. Specifically on the trout issue: Walk back from the parking lot, past the pond with the dock. The next pond on the north side of that path is huge and damned near dry. Stand there on the south side near the aspen stand, open your eyes and prick your ears. Those big dark shadowy bug sucking monsters are trout. If we don’t get some rain soon, they will soon be trout jerky. Let me know and I’ll meet you there. -bh Boulder, CO
Response:
I spent the day fishing one of the back ponds out near Munson’s east of Boulder, CO. The current drought and a bit of local water politics has reduced many of these usually healthy potholes to small bowls of muddy, stringy soup. The hole I chose to visit today caught my eye via my ear when I heard loud slurping sounds coming from the ooze. I sat down on a clump of rye grass and watched some of the biggest lunker trout I’ve ever seen sucking bugs off of the surface, their backs complelety exposed to the air as they lay cradled in the thick weeds. I sat and I watched and I evaluated. Two big problems — 1.) the sea weed was very thick and left only small (maybe 4-5 ft. across) targets of clear (kind of) water in which to land a fly and 2.) the CO Fish and Game had encouraged aspens all along this particular bank leaving only a 10 by 10 ft "window" for me to shoot a line through. Normally I’d feel ok about a tight cast like that, but I was also standing 10-12 feet above the surface of the water which put my backcast up high and my front cast down sharply. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I tied on a #8 Dave’s hopper variant that I picked up in a general store in Ten Sleep, WY this summer. This version has gads of jangly rubber legs and makes all kind of ruckus on the surface when you twitch ‘em. I had no clue what they were sipping so I figured something juicy and big might bust them away from whatever hatch they were enjoying at the moment. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I began to realise that there was not a single sunfish or gilly or anything small at or near the water’s edge. it occurred to me that this pond had been shrinking for months and that anything small had been consumed by the elders in the water. This explained their size. Off in the distance, maybe 100 yds or so from my clump of grass were two blue herons standing in less than a foot of water. They were no doubt waiting patiently for one of these giants to glide by. I tried to imagine what that fight would look like. The scene in front of me was like an entire wildlife documentory but without the narrative. Truly unreal. So I decided it was time. I screeched off 20 or 30 feet of line from my little Princess and flicked the tippet end out toward the water. Two or three false casts swished through the air and — and this is god’s truth — I popped that little hopper right smack in the center of a clear spot in the water. I watched. I waited. I stripped in the slack and I waited some more. The water was so dark and so thick with growth that it was hard to see anything beneath the surface. I waited a minute or so and finally I gave her a twitch. My little bug pushed a bow-wave straight toward me and floated high on the water. Another ten seconds and I gave it another twitch. This time something thick and black and large rolled over and devoured my fly. I popped my wrist back and hooked up nicely. That fish — my fish — ran a slalom course through the weeds and tangled my leader 5 ways from Sunday. I stood up, fell and slid like a knothead down the bank and landed on my knees in the muck. But I still had a fish on! I stripped the slack that had formed from my fall and felt the leader knot hit the tip of my rod. I knew I was less than 9 feet from this fish and I wasn’t going to let a little slime stop me from landing him. What I didn’t plan on was the "lack of firmness" on the bottom of the pond. I stepped into the water — just a foot or so — and immediately felt the coolness of the mud slide deliciously up to my knees. I tried to step out and I felt one of my Teva’s come off my foot. Damn! I lost balance and fell back, gently and with great style, right on my ass. Here I am, all of my bits and pieces in the water and my legs being swallowed by quick sand. I worked to get my feet out of the suck, all the while trying to hang on to my rod. Eventually I got to my feet and started scanning the weeds for my fishy friend. I bent my rod gently and in doing so pulled my leader into a semi-straight line. I coould feel the fish still and I could see the hissy fit he was throwing in the growth. Laying down my rod I wrapped the leader around my hand and gently pulled him in. The trout was wrapped in so much plant material that he looked twice his actual size. I kept him in the water and slipped a wet hand under his belly. The weeds kept him still as I unhooked him and pointed him, nose first toward the center of the pond. I gathered my dignity and shlepped back to my car, my legs and shorts frosted in foul smelling green/brown goop. Well, there are no facilities at this place and I had nothing more than what I was wearing with me so I slipped out of my shorts and tshirt, put my shirt over the driver’s seat of my car and drove home wearing nothing but my Jockeys and a big smile. Upon my arrival, my wife didn’t inquire as to my condition or how it came to be. She gave me a totally unaffected look and asked me if I had had a good time. I told her that I had.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I spent the day fishing one of the back ponds out near Munson’s east of Boulder, CO. The current drought and a bit of local water politics has reduced many of these usually healthy potholes to small bowls of muddy, stringy soup. The hole I chose to visit today caught my eye via my ear when I heard loud slurping sounds coming from the ooze. I sat down on a clump of rye grass and watched some of the biggest lunker trout I’ve ever seen sucking bugs off of the surface, their backs complelety exposed to the air as they lay cradled in the thick weeds. I sat and I watched and I evaluated. Two big problems — 1.) the sea weed was very thick and left only small (maybe 4-5 ft. across) targets of clear (kind of) water in which to land a fly and 2.) the CO Fish and Game had encouraged aspens all along this particular bank leaving only a 10 by 10 ft "window" for me to shoot a line through. Normally I’d feel ok about a tight cast like that, but I was also standing 10-12 feet above the surface of the water which put my backcast up high and my front cast down sharply. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I tied on a #8 Dave’s hopper variant that I picked up in a general store in Ten Sleep, WY this summer. This version has gads of jangly rubber legs and makes all kind of ruckus on the surface when you twitch ‘em. I had no clue what they were sipping so I figured something juicy and big might bust them away from whatever hatch they were enjoying at the moment. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I began to realise that there was not a single sunfish or gilly or anything small at or near the water’s edge. it occurred to me that this pond had been shrinking for months and that anything small had been consumed by the elders in the water. This explained their size. Off in the distance, maybe 100 yds or so from my clump of grass were two blue herons standing in less than a foot of water. They were no doubt waiting patiently for one of these giants to glide by. I tried to imagine what that fight would look like. The scene in front of me was like an entire wildlife documentory but without the narrative. Truly unreal. So I decided it was time. I screeched off 20 or 30 feet of line from my little Princess and flicked the tippet end out toward the water. Two or three false casts swished through the air and — and this is god’s truth — I popped that little hopper right smack in the center of a clear spot in the water. I watched. I waited. I stripped in the slack and I waited some more. The water was so dark and so thick with growth that it was hard to see anything beneath the surface. I waited a minute or so and finally I gave her a twitch. My little bug pushed a bow-wave straight toward me and floated high on the water. Another ten seconds and I gave it another twitch. This time something thick and black and large rolled over and devoured my fly. I popped my wrist back and hooked up nicely. That fish — my fish — ran a slalom course through the weeds and tangled my leader 5 ways from Sunday. I stood up, fell and slid like a knothead down the bank and landed on my knees in the muck. But I still had a fish on! I stripped the slack that had formed from my fall and felt the leader knot hit the tip of my rod. I knew I was less than 9 feet from this fish and I wasn’t going to let a little slime stop me from landing him. What I didn’t plan on was the "lack of firmness" on the bottom of the pond. I stepped into the water — just a foot or so — and immediately felt the coolness of the mud slide deliciously up to my knees. I tried to step out and I felt one of my Teva’s come off my foot. Damn! I lost balance and fell back, gently and with great style, right on my ass. Here I am, all of my bits and pieces in the water and my legs being swallowed by quick sand. I worked to get my feet out of the suck, all the while trying to hang on to my rod. Eventually I got to my feet and started scanning the weeds for my fishy friend. I bent my rod gently and in doing so pulled my leader into a semi-straight line. I coould feel the fish still and I could see the hissy fit he was throwing in the growth. Laying down my rod I wrapped the leader around my hand and gently pulled him in. The trout was wrapped in so much plant material that he looked twice his actual size. I kept him in the water and slipped a wet hand under his belly. The weeds kept him still as I unhooked him and pointed him, nose first toward the center of the pond. I gathered my dignity and shlepped back to my car, my legs and shorts frosted in foul smelling green/brown goop. Well, there are no facilities at this place and I had nothing more than what I was wearing with me so I slipped out of my shorts and tshirt, put my shirt over the driver’s seat of my car and drove home wearing nothing but my Jockeys and a big smile. Upon my arrival, my wife didn’t inquire as to my condition or how it came to be. She gave me a totally unaffected look and asked me if I had had a good time. I told her that I had.
Is that you, Frank?
Response:
Question:
…you’re married, right? jeff (with bleedin kneecaps and poor reception) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I tried the "work and you shall earn" bit for quite a while, so I’m trying the "beg and you shall receive" strategy for a change. It’s a heck of a lot easier on the feet, but a bit harder on the knees. See the thread that Mu started about Norman Maclean. Very enlightening.
Response:
It’s hit or miss time for the Batten Kill this time of
Nice TR. Often one learns far more from such days, than days when one "has a ball". One interesting point you make, is that one of course then has to implement what one learns, just knowing it, does no good! TL MC
Response:
Good report snipped. I sat on the bank and watched hundreds of duns climb up on rocks. I photographed some imago Hendriksons and noticed the brown eyes and segmented red body contrasting from the gray eyes and yellowish body of the subimago.
How about posting them to ABPF? Willi
Response:
How about posting them to ABPF?
Thanks Willi. I will do that. I doubt they’ll come out too good as you need the hi-res one to see the detail. That file is over 2.5M. I will post a few up later. — Gary M
Response:
I have that problem as well, particularly when it’s cold & my brain and fingers are numb and the thought of redoing the leader, tippet, etc. becomes overwhelming. Often the best thing that can happen to me is to snag & break off my fly; that forces me to act.
You mean fishin’ line and lures, right? — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html
Response:
I’ve been tempted, lor’, how I’ve been tempted ! So I get down on my knees and pray, and God gives me the strength to continue. And I just *know* things will get better once I catch a fish…
See the thread that Mu started about Norman Maclean. Very enlightening. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html
Response:
It’s hit or miss time for the Batten Kill this time of year. I envy anyone who lives nearby, as they can monitor the peak times of day for activity without the investment of a 150 mile car journey. This same weekend last year the river was high, cold and way too early for large scale Spring hatches (although it was a day in the 60s). This year I thought would be even worse, as this was the first year in 8 years I remember snow on the mountains. On Saturday it was 53F ambient, sunny, with a biting cold wind coming up the valley from New York. Water temps were about 47F. I got suited up at 12:30pm. No insect activity at all, so I nymphed for 1 hour. Missed one nice fish, but I was in a risky spot evidenced by the fact that any shift in weight gave me the sickening feeling of almost being washed downstream. I decided to head up closer to Arlington and I parked near the green bridge on River Road. There was a nice Blue Quill (Iron Blue Dun) hatch coming off and lasted most of the afternoon. No fish working them. Around 2pm, peaking at 3pm and ceasing at 5:30pm the Light Hendriksons started. Strong hatch. No fish worked the duns. Nymphs were not working for me, or any of the two other anglers. I would love to get Dave LaCourse up there, or some other ROFF nymph magician as a litmus test, as I am below average nympher on my best day. I was chilled to the bone from the wind and the water, so I retired to bank and chatted with the other anglers who had done the same. All dressed up with nowhere to go we watched the river alive with bugs and not a single rise. This is not that unusal for Hendriksons early season, the nymphs being preferential to trout, but when the nymphs are working either it is Battenkillitus! A guy from the local Orvis store nymphed through and joined us on the bank. The general consensus seems to be this is the year of the Battenkill’s comeback. He had taken a nice fish on a lure at our present spot a few weeks back, and the other guy had lost a 18-20" brown the week before on an even stronger Hendrikson hatch. Both of the guys gave up and I was about to do the same when I noticed a splash in front of where I was standing. I got in the water and tried to work upstrem to get the best float. I got 10 casts in but the upstream wind and my 12′ 6x leader gave me a case of what I call "delayed, confused dry fly landing" whereby the fly lands 3 feet upstream and 2 secs after the line hits the water. Eagerness prevented me from taking remedial action, until I could stand it no more and I took 3′ off the end. There are many kinds of patience to be acquired when fly fishing and I am deficient in the area of taking my time to get things right on my tackle. I have that irrational fear that the fish will stop feeding, the river will drain away or some other angler will bully in and take the fish first. On this last point, there was no one left on the river … I worked upstream more. Now 5 fish worked in the target area. A few splashy rises I equate with young fish but one was nebbing duns regualarly with hardly an imprint on the surface. Third cast he took my fly and my strike was took fast. He looked to be a couple of inches over a foot long. I never felt weight, but I retrieved a wispy, flyless leader. The fish stopped rising and my one chance that day was gone. I sat on the bank and watched hundreds of duns climb up on rocks. I photographed some imago Hendriksons and noticed the brown eyes and segmented red body contrasting from the gray eyes and yellowish body of the subimago. At 6:30pm I could see no sign of a spinner fall and the cold was unbearable, so I called it a day. Next day was forecast rain and high 50s. It actually was 30s and ice pellets mixed with snow bounced off the windshield as I drove to the river. I did not suit up. The rest of this week is to be similar weather-wise. I hope this is the year of the Battenkill. I personally consider this kind of day a good day for me on this river, errors included. Though errors are mitigated by opportunities (when you only get one opportunity it is tough) I will relish the take and forget the "break". Yes, it can be a temperamental, unforgiving and obstinate river, but I do love its challenges. I don’t know if anyone had read John Ingliss Hall’s, "Fly Fishing a Highland Stream". He captures my relationship with this river better than I could ever craft in words. Fingers crossed for 2002. — Gary M
Response:
Question:
Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.
<snip Maybe "Catch and Release Non-Hatchery Reared Fish" wouldn’t fit on the license plate frame. You know very well what Ernie meant. I win lots of debates with my wife by pretending not to understand what she is talking about when she makes a good point, but I am an amateur compared to you. Jeff Runner
Response:
William Loehman wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people. It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups to over-ride this instinct. The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish.
I agree with all of this. However, I still enjoy fishing the San Juan when I take my annual trip. It may be that pound for pound a truly wild fish would give a better fight than one that’s grown up in the San Juan – but I find that many of the fights I’ve had have been plenty exciting. I admit that aesthetically I value catching truly wild fish, but I have very little opportunity to do so, and since I’m not a 40 fish a day guy, even on the San Juan, I haven’t become sated by the tailwater-nymphing experience like some have. Perhaps someday I will. Even so, I still think I’ll support the existence of these kinds of fisheries to accommodate all of the fishers who enjoy it. I accept the fact that in order to get to ‘purer’ fishing, I’ll have to go to the less accessible places or conform to far more restrictive regulations. — -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life). You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked.
- forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. As usual what we’ve got is some people getting confused with the basics of the English Language. The word ‘wild’ can have a number of meanings depending on the context of the statement. So to say a land is wild or even ‘wilderness’ (two different words with different meanings) indicating it is uneffected by the action of man – or more acurately ‘in it’s natutal state’ has zip to do with weather a fish is wild. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "take_this_out" for email reply
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the deer? Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.) What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel word to continue to condemn c&r. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.
I agree with most of this but the trout in some of our heavilly fished tailwaters do just about what you suggest. They are attracted to rather than disturbed by wading anglers. They will actually set up feeding stations just downstream of the angler. This IS tamed & trained. Willi
Response:
[some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd.
You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. Again, I will quote the current High Priest of Flyfishing Philosphy himself, John Gierach (That is what he is called on the back cover of "Another Lousy Day In Paradise"). Where, when fishing in a spot that had never been fished by anyone, he referred to the fish as "perfectly" wild. His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ? I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’. I am saying that it is ‘less wild’. Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy. I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild. If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations. A couple of years ago my wife and I were on a early morning hike before spending a few hours on our favourite lake. We saw a deer and the deer saw us. Both parties stopped to contemplate each other, the deer not sure what we were up to. My wife and I whispered to each other and we could see the deer’s big ears swivel to pick up our speech. That’s interaction! Did it tame the
deer? Yes. In fact you *really* surprise my by this comment. That animal lose their fear of humans when exposed to them, for example in public campgrounds, and city dumps is a really bad thing and might be fatal for the animal. If you would have thrown a rock at the deer and chased it with a stick, you would have done it a huge favor, IMO. Even if your wife thinks you’re an asshole for the act. Does a fish cease to be wild when it’s been hooked and lost? Does it cease to be wild because it has seen a person and fled or conversely has not fled? (as often happens with wild salmon in these parts – you practicaly have to step on them before they retreat downstream.)
Every time a fish encounters man and is not killed it becomes less and less wild. This is pretty clear based on the definition of wild, and apparently, many people agree. Including The Prophet. What we’ve got here is someone trying to use ‘wild’ as a sort of weasel
word to continue to condemn c&r. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me. I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness.
*THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established. Like I said Ralphie. You’ve got no heart. No feeling for this subject at all. Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ? Whaddya say ? You obviously need a break. As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed.
Bullshit. Do a little experiment Ralphie. Tie up some milk-bone imitations on a 2/0 Sproat and sight cast to Ms. Wilson’s poodle. What happens when you hook the little beggar ? Oh…I forgot…you live in BC where the Poodles are Wild and the Men have huge plonkers. Until they swim right to me and roll over to let me stroke their bellies they are wild.
Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy. Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not). I just hope I can capture the ‘essence’ of your disappointment on film when they roll over and let you stroke their bellies. — TimW Halfordian Golfer
Response:
Moe Skeeter wrote Ralph H wrote [some deleted] forgive guys but the idea that any animal that has interacted with people is ‘no longer wild’ is absurd. You seem to acknowledge ‘degrees’ of wildness…let’s start there. … John Gierach …. His definition or "Perfectly" Wild was fish that had not been fished for by man. We are *all* on the same page on this score, oui ?
Everybody step close together and smile for this Kodak moment – I think we can all get behind this, so far. I am not saying that a fish C&R-ed is ‘no longer wild’. I am saying that it is ‘less wild’.
So far, so good. Further, the continued practice of C&R on that same fish will remove the ‘wild’ from it completely and this is clearly evidenced in those heavily fished places where the so called ‘wild’ trout bear no resemblence to the real McCoy.
Oops! Hyperbole alert! completely< and no resemblance to the real McCoy<. Tim’s world view surfaces. Fine. We know your values. Ours are different. (and better of course <g) I stick by my guns. "C&R WILD TROUT" *is* an oxymoron. Every time you release it it becomes less and less wild until it is no longer wild.
In the immortal words of Ronnie, "There you go again!" It is at best now a very weak oxymoron since a really strong one (like guest host) requires words having strongly opposing values. "Continued catch & release of a wild fish"…now that’s waxing a little more oxymoronic … but it doesn’t quite have that ring you want for a license plate slogan. Keep trying though, playing with words is fun, just as long as you don’t take yourself so seriously that you use such games to support serious conclusions. Here’s a good example to get you started: When you honor a fish by killing and eating it you are exhibiting a cruel kindness<. If you don’t agree with this..well, than you must at least agree that it is (at the very least) *counterproductive* if the goal of C&R’ing fish is to preserve ‘Wild Trout’, which is what people (ostensibly) believe they are doing when they buy the license plate frame for their Orvis Jeep and release 7 pound "park trout" back into the upper Frying Pan river. This is not simple conjecture Ralph. It is hard fact based on empirical observations.
What have you observed other than seeing people return their catch. This is hardly evidence for the motivations for doing so. Or have you carried out extensive, scholarly research on the subject? (The use of the word ‘ostensibly’ makes me think the answer is no). No, it is not counterproductive. Released fish spawn and their offspring are wild. Not so for caught fish. I have never assumed that the singular goal of C&R is preserving wild trout. Although, it does quite nicely in many situations. For example, if I hike into a less accessible spot and catch trout that (a) have never been caught before or (b) are a tad less wild because they’ve been caught once, then releasing these trout still allows them to be fairly wild (as opposed to dead) and to continue to produce wild offspring. So no, I do not feel compelled to agree with your imperative. But keep working at it, my ears are open. Pure C&R is self-condemning, it doesn’t need me.
The fact that you are the only one on ROFF who seems to believe this belies the statement. Convince me otherwise. (Boy I like that phrase…thanks) I can’t see how many times a fish is released effects it’s wildness. *THIS* has been *CLEARLY* established.
Point taken. (again) Like I said Ralphie. You’ve got no heart. No feeling for this subject at all. Why not take up a sport that doesn’t involve the exploitation of Wild Animals, I’ll give you a good homebrew recipe ? Whaddya say ? You obviously need a break.
It’s obvious to me from your posts that you are a fairly bright guy, so when I see statements like this I can only think you must be suffering from overindulgence in your own homebrew. (BTW – telling someone they have no heart, especially after they’ve indicated that they respect what you say, could be construed as a particularly heartless act) Ralph H. wrote As long as they continue to have a flight reaction to the hook and pull of the line they are untamed. Bullshit.
Sorry, I have you on record (see Kodak moment above) as saying that there are varying degrees of wildness, so your BS is BS (so what else is new?) Like I said, the invitation to come fish the Frying Pan or the San Juan remains open big boy. Mitch will guide us and I will be the photographer (I refuse to fish there…10 pound lipless park trout or not).
I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October. If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips. (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. — -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address
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I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October. If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips. (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF.
I’ll take that bet. Willi
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I don’t bet against friends, no matter what the outcome, we both lose. — TimW Halfordian Golfer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll probably be at the San Juan the 2nd or 3rd week of next October. If you want, we can meet there and if more than 10% of the fish I catch have injured lips, I’ll give you a hundred bucks and you will give me a hundred bucks if less than 10% have injured lips. (Exactly 10% will be a push). Plus the loser will submit an appropriately humble posting on ROFF. I’ll take that bet.
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Willi, Don’t you think that this could be classified as being opportuinistic or at least a learned behavior? If you could find somewhere where a repeated action produced something you were eager to experience(a certain hatch at a certain time at a certain place) that you would learn to be there? tamed? maybe just taking advantage. jim
To me, a wild animal is tamed when it no longer displays its instinct fear of man. When people teach animals behavior, they are trained. We may disagree about definitions, but these "trout" display unnatural behavior. Willi
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As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself. It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy).
I agree completely. Black and white arguments are almost always untrue or come down to a strict definition of a word and don’t apply to the real world. Trout can be caught a number of times and still have what is to me , the essence of their wildness: they fear people. It takes constant daily contact with people and numerous hookups to over-ride this instinct. The Juan, The Green & The Pan are the prime samples of this. The fish in these rivers are attracted to wading anglers because of the food they kick up rather than fearing them. This was a necessary adaptation for them in order to survive in the presence of the hoards of fishermen, but make for a very unnatural existance. They are no longer "trout" but trained fish. Willi
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.I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times. Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?
Neither, one has been trained by man and the other one made by him. I like to fish for fish that at least approach being wild. Willi
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Not to beat a dead horse, but… Moe Skeeter wrote fiddleaway wrote It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life). You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number.
You seemed to understand as I explained further (see below), but to reiterate; if I take (what seems to be) your definition of wild< – a trout that has had no interaction with humans – then the trout is wild until it is caught the first time (well, I suppose you could say that the trout is wild until it is hooked. So, even the act of landing the wild trout would be oxymoronic. However, I think this sophistry is quickly becoming simply moronic). Bottom line, the primary way you distinguish yourself from other flyfishers with regard to resource management is what you do with a wild trout after< it’s caught. So, my point is, verbiage aside, catching a wild trout the first time is not oxymoronic. Catching it a second time would be (given your definition of wild). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once .. whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching. so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic. But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme.
I think its fair to attribute such a statement to you (especially since you like the sound of it). And my point that such a statement is just as oxymoronic as "Catch and Release a Wild Trout" stands. So if it’s oxymorons that lead to the decline of fisheries ( a strange notion…Caused by the mold? -see below) you’re just as guilty as those who champion the release of wild trout. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument. If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it.
No, you are contradicting your argument. If it’s wild when you kill it, then its wild when you release it. Ergo, no oxymoron. The oxymoron exists for both or for neither. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ? Of course not. I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT".
As is often the case, a singular action is not bad in and of itself. It only becomes bad when done to excess (and then of course the term excess becomes the point of controversy). Catching and releasing a wild trout…is that a bad thing? You< must say no, if I understand your SH method correctly (if a slot limit is used to implement it, for example). My point? Neither your assertion of the goodness of a singularity nor your claim of oxymoronic practice distinguishes C&R from SH. (With regard to wild fish…your definition of wild). As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before). Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g
The picture this paints was worth the whole thread. LMAO. (Sorry Ernie – I’m sure you can counter with a clever rejoinder) Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Actually, if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked. Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet.
At least you don’t have to worry about going bald. — -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address
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[deleted] Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’
I must say that this attack on our use of the phrase Pure C&R for purposes of discussion around here to be really frustrating. It is fairly obviously simply an attempt at accuracy. Also, I must point out that it was not me that originally coined it…although I did adopt it at as fairly obvious and positive contribution to the discussion. It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches about me. Oh…BTW – I like your disclaimer ralph… — TimW Halfordian Golfer
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It has served the discussion really well, IMO, it is just that Anesthesized Testicles himself (Jimbo) doesn’t like it…truth is I don’t know what Jimbo likes as the only thing he ever posts are bitches
I suppose we can assume (ouch) he likes that! Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.
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Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire.
Don’t forget the butter! — -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address
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Ernie Harrison wrote [snip] The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire. Don’t forget the butter!
C’mon SPRING ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer
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The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout" *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.
It’s not an oxymoron. Let’s say you’re on a wilderness river. You catch a native trout that’s never seen a fly or even a fisherman’s shadow. It’s wild, right? OK, we’re halfway there. Now you release it. Steve Barnard I take your point about fish that have been caught and released several times. Take your pick: Would you rather catch 5 lb. trout that have been to school, or 10" hatchery fish?
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Yes. Fried. In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. I know, today, "Daddy" and "Momma" and "man" are interchangable, but it’s an old bit of poetry. Prometheus, no doubt out of pity for shivvering humans stuck with eating raw fish, stole fire from the gods on Mt. Olympus and gave us earthlings this warm present. Somebody invented the skillet, somebody the wheel. Now, we get in our buggies and roll out to the creek or the lake and bring home FOOD. To cook. Perhaps those who consider themselves higher than this, beyond this, holier than this, belong not with humans, but with the gods–who felt no pity for humans. Ethically, morally, rationally, philosophically, NATUR-ALLY, anti-fishers, anti-eaters, seem to lack understanding of what life’s all about for us poor mortals. They seem to have no true feelings for humans OR for (other) animals. They seem to be not nature lovers, but to see themselves as above nature, a holy lot, and so are in the way here, and belong in heaven, as Mark Twain said of those who do not repent of the "good" they try to do. Love nature? Love fish? Love animals? And still eat them? Of course we go. They give us milk, butter, meat, clothing. And just as Prometheus had to swipe fire from Mt. Olympus, so must we yet continue to wrestle these "gifts" from the self-elected gods of today. Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of the self-righteous. Jess Thompson
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Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (not hatchery), but I don’t want you to get the idea that I never eat one or would try to tell you not to. I don’t like the idea of filling the freezer with wild trout to take home with you. We all have pictures of our ancestors standing beside 50 dead trout with a big smile on their face. There are days when you could seriously deplete the trout population in a stream with a fly rod and fly. We spend enough money to buy the fish in a store by the time we get to the stream, so we must be fishing for the experience, not the food. The best recipe for wild trout is to coat them with flour and corn meal and fry them over the camp fire. — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes. Fried. In butter. Fishie fishie in the brook, Daddy catch ‘em on a hook. Momma fry ‘em in a pan, Baby eat ‘em like a man. <snip Honestly, I try to understand all points of view, but I admit to discomfort in the company of the self-righteous. Jess Thompson
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Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted)
The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ? A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What *is* The Wild ? Nature as God left it without the interference of man. Every time man visits the wild it is a little less wild. Every road or trail built into wilderness, it is a little less wild. and yes… Every time you catch and release a wild trout, it is less wild than it was before. If you *honestly* seek truth, this would be a pretty inescapable one. Consider: The fish are so used to people on The Frying Pan river now, that a careful stalk is less important than an exact imitation of the natural. This is *EXACTLY* opposite of what fishing in Wilderness, to Wild Trout, is. Yet, you see the "Catch and Release Wild Trout" License plate frames on virtually all of the SUV’s and mini-vans in The Parking Lot. This irony drives me mad ! On The Frying Pan river, I once landed a +5 LBS Wild Trout (Your words, not mine) in the current on 7X and a #20 biot emerger. This was no wild trout, I contend, as this would be impossible with a real 5 pound wild trout fighting for its life. But that’s just it, isn’t it ? The trout are not fighting for their life, not after being released a half a dozen times. They come to hand like old boots up there. The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout" *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. — TimW Halfordian Golfer
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Moe Skeeter wrote The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron.
[clever argument snipped] The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout" *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.
It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life). You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching. Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic. But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner." As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before). Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess. Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake Convince me otherwise. — -dnc- to reply, change ‘dnc’ to ‘dcollins’ in email address
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… The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout" *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise.
Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild! - jqt –
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It is not an oxymoron the very first time a wild trout is caught (in its life). You have a point that repeated catchings may cause trout to behave less ‘wildly’ – though your anecdote is not proof, I will admit that your assertion stands to reason.
I do not understand how you can say that…100 is bigger than 1, but 1 is just as valid a number. But, according to your definition, a wild trout can only be caught once … whether it is released or eaten, it ceases to be a wild trout upon catching.
so far so good… Now I’ll grant you that once a wild trout is caught, it’s fair to say that it is no longer wild so I guess its then fair to say that ‘release’ and ‘wild trout’ are oxymoronic. But no less oxymoronic than saying, "Tonight I’m serving wild trout for dinner."
I don’t rememember seeing "Tonight I am Serving Wild Trout For Dinner" License plate frames or as a slogan for our national fisheries management coalition…<g… (but…I like the sound of it and might have some printed up….HEY LICENSE FRAME DUDE !!! WHERE ARE YOU ???) It fits very neatly with the "Halfordian Golfer" theme. But, you’re shooting yourself in the foot and contradicting your first argument. If the FIRST time is a freebie and it is still purely wild, it IS a wild trout whenn you kill and eat it. Now…eating Wild Trout…is that a bad thing ? Of course not. I mean…in colorado a valid management phrase could be… "EAT A WILD BROOKIE…SAVE A NATIVE CUTTHROAT". As far as I know, Ernie was talking mainly about catching wild trout that meet your definition (never caught before). Much the same attitude some guys have about virgins, I guess.
Well, he *is* doing the same thing to them….<g Claiming that an oxymoron is somehow counter-productive to having real Wild Trout is the kind of statement one might expect from one having the fertile mind of a fruitcake
Actually, if you leave fruitcake lying around, molds will grow…unless it is rum soaked. Someone said that’s how they knew Christmas was over….you mistake your fruitcake for your ghia pet. — TimW Halfordian Golfer
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The slogan "Catch and Release Wild Trout" *is* an oxymoron and really, really counter-productive to having real Wild Trout. Convince me otherwise. Well, Tim, you just have to consider humans as *part of* the wild!
OK..Big boy, what does Wild and Wilderness mean …? — TimW Halfordian Golfer
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jess, I support catch and release of wild trout, (deleted) The phrase "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is an oxymoron. Perhaps the ultimate oxymoron. It is not unlike "Break and Release of a Wild Horse". Think hard. What *is* a wild trout ? A trout born and raised in "The Wild". What *is* The Wild ? Nature as God left it without the interference of man.
if a wild trout is as you describe then "Catch and Release of Wild Trout" is not oxymoronic regardless if the fish has been caught the first time or the fifth time. However ‘wild’ means untamed or not domesticated or specifically ‘not requiring the hand of man to survive.’ That’s why a horse; an equine species domesticated and bred by man can be wild. Naturally spawned cutts in the little creek on my mother-in-laws property are wild even though the land is not or the fact me and my kids prick their lips from time to time. Kokanee is Colorado are another matter and clearly are not wild. Now if want to look at a phrase that’s oxymoronic and invented by an oxymoron just think of ‘pure catch and release’ ;^) Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.
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