Question:

Hello Fred Bringman I recently got a good deal on several spools of WF-7-F Orvis Drift Boat Fly Line.  The problem is the flyline is a very bright fluorescent Orange. Can flyline be dyed?  If so can anyone give me some guidance on how to dye the line to get a much softer color.

Found this scroll to the bottom of the page http://www.greensboro.com/flyfish/news/1999_10.htm Thank you in advance.

you are welcome. Fred

– Don’t Worry, Be Happy! IRC Sandyb in #Rabble uk1.arcnet.vapor.com port:6667 Sandy (http://www.ftscotland.co.uk)

Response:

I recently got a good deal on several spools of WF-7-F Orvis Drift Boat Fly Line.  The problem is the flyline is a very bright fluorescent Orange.

OK, someone give me a clue: WTF makes a line a "drift boat fly line"? /daytripper (um…with a collection of…um…"non-drift boat fly lines"…)

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I recently got a good deal on several spools of WF-7-F Orvis Drift Boat Fly Line.  The problem is the flyline is a very bright fluorescent Orange. OK, someone give me a clue: WTF makes a line a "drift boat fly line"? /daytripper (um…with a collection of…um…"non-drift boat fly lines"…)

Because it’s orange (gotta tell this guy everything – sheesh.) Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fly lines dye particularly easily, much easier than it would seem. Here in New Zealand we use subdued colored lines and are used to dieing fly-lines of visiting U.S. anglers. We do about 3 a week at the lodge I am with. A standard Ritt dye in Dark Olive is usually pretty effective and gives a nice finish. The dye is mixed in a largish pot and brought to boiling point, then it is left to cool until you can just tolerate putting your finger in (Careful with this bit, of all the lines we’ve done we’ve never damaged one but a couple of fingers have been The line is then put into the dye in loose coils and weighted down so it’s submerged. it’s then left over night. In the morning a rinse is all that’s required to have the line ready for use. As a rule we usually only do the last 20 or so feet of line, but there’s no reason not to dye the whole thing. I know it would appear that the heat would destroy the plastic. The reality is, it doesn’t.

And this works, or seems to, for all line types, without apparent lessening of any factor?  The reason I’m curious is that it would seem that if it readily absorbs the dye, it would seem to readily absorb water.  I also have to wonder (really "wonder," not sarcastically "gotta wonder ’bout that" – I have no idea what chemicals are present, and so, have no idea of the possible effects) if the dye causes any ill-effects to the line, coating, etc.  And something else just occurred to me: if the water-based dye penetrates to the braid, what about the weight of the dye, and how long do you have to wait for the water to evaporate out – it seems simply rinsing and going would be using a "water- and dye-logged" line, but ??? My "cowboy logic" tells me that if this were both a good idea and readily-workable as "SOP," that someone would have marketed a white line with dyes available, given all the falderall over line color.  Of course, perhaps someone does, and I just don’t know about it <G… I’d like to hear more about this, please. TC R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hope that helps. Clark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Fred Bringman I recently got a good deal on several spools of WF-7-F Orvis Drift Boat Fly Line.  The problem is the flyline is a very bright fluorescent Orange. Can flyline be dyed?  If so can anyone give me some guidance on how to dye the line to get a much softer color. Found this scroll to the bottom of the page http://www.greensboro.com/flyfish/news/1999_10.htm Thank you in advance. you are welcome. Fred

One note of caution for Airflo fans.  Their lines are polyurethane not PVC and melt at  much lower temperature.  I just found out the hard way when I used a heat gun to tighten some heat shrink tubing.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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And this works, or seems to, for all line types, without apparent lessening of any factor?  The reason I’m curious is that it would seem that if it readily absorbs the dye, it would seem to readily absorb water.

Not necessarily.  I’m no dye expert, but I do a lot of tissue staining in my day job, and I suspect that much of the chemistry is very similar.  The fact that a dye is in aqueous solution and that the dye is capable of penetrating a given material doesn’t necessarily mean that the water will be carried along into that material.  Remember that while a plactic may be hydrophobic, it cannot avoid coming into close contact with water it is immersed in. This, obviously, also brings dyes molecules into contact.  The individual dye molecules may or may not pass directly from the water into the surface of the plastic depending on the chemistry involved, and may also penetrate to some depth, again, without carrying any of the water. I also have to wonder (really "wonder," not sarcastically "gotta wonder ’bout that" – I have no idea what chemicals are present, and so, have no idea of the possible effects) if the dye causes any ill-effects to the line, coating, etc.

There is a wide range of chemical reactions which may take place in dyeing. Some of them can be very destructive to either the dyes or the substrates, or both, depending on their chemical and physical properties.  The addition of mordants or other adjuncts can also complicate matters.  That said, it is also obvious that dyeing is a hugely successful and pretty well understood practice.  There are doubtless all kinds of good references which would help one determine in advance whether a particular application is safe and effective for a given material, but they can be hard to ferret out.  It’s best to find out from manufacturers (if possible) what their recommendations are.  If that isn’t possible or practical, testing on scraps is the next best thing.  But, on the face of it, the mere fact that a dye penetrates into a material is no reason to be concerned that it reacts in any harmful way.  The bad news is that when damage DOES occur, it is not necessarily immediately obvious.  Some problems take a while to develop to the point where they are noticeable.  Meanwhile, if others have had success in using a given brand and color of dye on a particular line, I’m inclined to believe that it’s safe enough, but this does NOT mean that any dye will be effective and safe with any line.  Still best to err on the side of caution. And something else just occurred to me: if the water-based dye penetrates to the braid, what about the weight of the dye, and how long do you have to wait for the water to evaporate out – it seems simply rinsing and going would be using a "water- and dye-logged" line, but ???

All of the above notwithstanding, it IS possible that something in a dye will react with a line coating to reduce it’s hydrophobic qualities.  If this does happen, the ultimate result is questionable, but I suspect that the damage will likely be permanent and the line destroyed.  The problem is that some sort of chemical reaction has taken place and the odds that it will be reversed on drying are vanishingly small. My "cowboy logic" tells me that if this were both a good idea and readily-workable as "SOP," that someone would have marketed a white line with dyes available, given all the falderall over line color.

Much more profitable to sell someone another line, I should think. Of course, perhaps someone does, and I just don’t know about it <G…

I’ve never heard of any such either. I’d like to hear more about this, please.

Even more than this?     Wolfgang

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See articles on dyeing fly-lines here; http://www.flugfiskesidan.com/magazine/uk/current.asp http://www.greensboro.com/flyfish/news/1999_10.htm  ( Scroll down) http://www.steelheadsite.com/rigging/messages/2606.shtml http://www.iffa.org.uk/dyinglines.htm TL MC

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As you will see if you read the articles. At least one author says that dyeing the lines reduces their useful life up to 30%. My own experiments along these lines, ( sorry!), suggest that the dyeing process leaches out quite a lot of the PVC softeners, and there may also be some chemical reactions, which cause the lines to crack prematurely. I have dyed quite a few lines in the past, but don

Question:

But,one can build the body into most of the bend, use hook shape to the advantage of simulation.

That’s true, especially for scuds, caddis pupae, etc.  Still, by far my most productive fly, a bead-head PT on a TMC 3761, has a pretty straight body that takes up no more than half the total hook length (eye to point). I agree with your earlier statement, "On many subsurface patterns, and even some  surface emerger types, the hook bend can serve to mimic the shape of the natural nymph, pupa or whatever", especially for those forms, like emerging pupae that have associated air bubbles.  The hook bend may correspond in the trout’s eye to the curved edge of the bubble or bubble mass.   Although it’s an uncommon fly, compare the picture of the daphnia fly Dave LaCourse found and posted on ROFT http://www.danica.com/flytier/hverhaar/daphnia.htm to photos of daphnia http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artjun99/wflea.html Without the hook bend, there’d be little resemblance.  Makes you wonder if all those tiny things on curved #24-28 hooks that we think are midge patterns aren’t really taken by the trout as daphnia (not that it really matters). JR

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Some manufacturers are now producing bright gold, green, red and blue salmon/steelhead hooks.  Why waste all that bare metal when you can dress it up?

One wonders if a little metallic paint added to make the hook look more like the tied bug would make a difference.  I might have to try that for fun just to see. Sandy

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Maybe that big curvy part looks like an ovipositor.  See my web site www.sluttyflies.com

Here’s the sex spam we were looking for.  Bugs waving their ovipositors around.  Hmmph. Sandy

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  One wonders if a little metallic paint added to make the hook look more like the tied bug would make a difference.  I might have to try that for fun just to see.

They are starting to make the colored hooks in trout sizes too.  I saw some at a fly shop on the Beaverhead River and Lou Teletski gave me a fly that used a red hook when we went fishing the other day.  I haven’t tried them yet, but I can see how they might benefit a fly tyer. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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They are starting to make the colored hooks in trout sizes too.  I saw some at a fly shop on the Beaverhead River and Lou Teletski gave me a fly that used a red hook when we went fishing the other day.  I haven’t tried them yet, but I can see how they might benefit a fly tyer.

Did you see who the hook’s maker was? If someone here’s interested in trying it for themselves, you can buy metallic paint (normally used for jewelry) here: http://www.fancifulsinc.com/ Sandy

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You’d think (regardless of your species-specific sense of perception) that this big ol’ ugly THING just hanging there off the bottom of our handiwork is a lot more obvious than the many fine details we obsess over.  Why on earth would any trout swimming not key on THAT?

Depending on the angle the fish sees it from, yes it’s very obvious and I have no doubt whatever that the trout sees it.  But trout are also very used to seeing things on insects – broken legs and wings, a sliver of leaf or filament of weed, or even a pebble and twig case on a caddis.  The trout sees it and just assumes it’s a harmless piece of flotsam, extra fiber if you will.  Only if a trout has been hooked a number of times would he actually recognize it as a "bad" insect, IMO.

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Did you see who the hook’s maker was? If someone here’s interested in trying it for themselves, you can buy metallic paint (normally used for jewelry) here: http://www.fancifulsinc.com/

The hooks I saw were not labeled.  It looked like the shop had bought them bulk and packaged them in little zip lock bags on their own.  I will call out there tomorrow and find out where they bought them at.  I do recall they were expensive (like $10 for 25 hooks if I remember correctly) so your metallic paint idea might be a very good alternative. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

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"The trout just assumes it’s a harmless piece of flotsam, extra fiber if you will." "Assumes", to deduce.  The ability to come to a logical conclusion based on facts.   "Trout", to be a genius.  The ability to attend college courses without paying tuitions.  To Trout, as to flaunt wonderful phrases upon non-thinking ass holes who fly fish as a reflex action. "Seeing Trout" extablishes the ability to understand languages such as English. "Feeding Trout", The need to eat with the foreknowledge that to not do so will result in death.   "Dieting Trout", as in "Free Rising" selective trout who know the difference between choosing either a protein insect over one burden with excessive carbohydrates and undesirable fiber. Flyfisherman:  That which has a brain the size of a pea and who talks to the fishes as in Mafia Fisherman.   All’s Fair With Fur or Feather gg

Response:

Warren Findley: One wonders if a little metallic paint added to make the hook look more like the tied bug would make a difference.  I might have to try that for fun just to see. They are starting to make the colored hooks in trout sizes too.  I saw some at a fly shop on the Beaverhead River and Lou Teletski gave me a fly that used a red hook when we went fishing the other day.  I haven’t tried them yet, but I can see how they might benefit a fly tyer. —

I’ve been using red nymph hooks for five or six years.  It’s the only color I’ve seen in the smaller sizes. As far as glitter is concerned, good old nail polish (Wet and Wild) with the silver or gold flecks in it works well.  Also, Orvis sells some head cement with silver flecks.   Dave

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I’ve been using red nymph hooks for five or six years.  It’s the only color I’ve seen in the smaller sizes. As far as glitter is concerned, good old nail polish (Wet and Wild) with the silver or gold flecks in it works well.  Also, Orvis sells some head cement with silver flecks. Dave

Do you think there’s an advantage in using colored hooks? The nail polish idea is a good one — you can get it in any crazy color these days, and Wet & Wild is pretty cheap, but the clerk at the store might look at you funny. Sandy

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Reading about colored hooks now is a revelation to me Jon and I suppose it makes sense to include the hook coloring of olive, for instance, to add to the tone of an olive caddis emerger, for instance.  It seems this is one of those rare instances where the present generation is going to drag me, screaming and kicking into the future.  I might be an old dog learning new tricks but it doesn’t mean I have to like it. Now if you please, would someone hold my hand down hard upon this table so it won’t lift that shot of Jack Daniels to my quivering lips? Mr. G. All’s Fair With Fur or Feather gg

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……. But trout are also very used to seeing things on insects – broken legs and wings, a sliver of leaf or filament of weed, or even a pebble and twig case on a caddis.  The trout sees it and just assumes it’s a harmless piece of flotsam, extra fiber if you will.  Only if a trout has been hooked a number of times would he actually recognize it as a "bad" insect, IMO.

Yes, that’s all plausible. JR

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Do you think there’s an advantage in using colored hooks? The nail polish idea is a good one — you can get it in any crazy color these days, and Wet & Wild is pretty cheap, but the clerk at the store might look at you funny.

I called up that fly shop in Dillon and they said the hooks are manufactured by Daiichi.  I checked the Daiichi website and they have red, black, nickel and gold hooks in a variety of styles.  Unfortunately they do not list their hooks that would be of use to fly fishermen so I emailed the company for more information.  Here is a link to their website if you care to take a look. http://www.daiichihooks.com/daiichi/index.html — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

I called up that fly shop in Dillon and they said the hooks are manufactured by Daiichi.  I checked the Daiichi website and they have red, black, nickel and gold hooks in a variety of styles.  Unfortunately they do not list their hooks that would be of use to fly fishermen so I emailed the company for more information.  Here is a link to their website if you care to take a look. http://www.daiichihooks.com/daiichi/index.html

   Another manufacturer of colored hooks is Gamakatsu (www.gamakatsu.com). I’ve seen them in the local fly shops but never tied with them, but I’ll vouch for the quality of their product. I was a serious ocean/big game fisherman in a past life; Gamakatsu and Owner were the only hooks I’d use.

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Warren?  Wouldn’t you t hink a gold hook would most likely be like adding gold tinsel to a fly?  I don’t know. George All’s Fair With Fur or Feather gg

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I think, but have no proof for it, that hook recognition develops in fish over time and that this is a major part of what we anglers call "selective behavior". I feel this is mostly a factor with flies at/near the surface, and more an issue in slower, richer streams that offer more time for the fish to observe their prey. On many subsurface patterns, and even some surface emerger types, the hook bend can serve to mimic the shape of the natural nymph,pupa or whatever.

I agree it’s mostly a factor in slower, richer streams.  I’d have thought, though, it was also more important with subsurface flies than with dries, first because the "profile" of the bend is reduced when viewed from below, and second because, as well described by Peter in the Fly Perceptions thread, it may be that the bare part of the hook is somewhat masked by the dimples and associated halos caused by the hackle and tail. JR

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When I first read the header to this post I ignored because I thought it was sex site SPAM!!!!!!!

Sorry.  Fine state of affairs when we *expect* to see sex spam, ain’t it? What you say may very well be true, but like I said in another post, it’s something that confirms my opinion that fish perceive our flies in a very different way from the way we do. That "big-ass curvy part" is very evident to me and seems even more prevalent in smaller flies. Maybe they ignore it because they tend to look for certain things that are "right" about a fly or for a certain trigger instead of things that are "wrong." Maybe those "educated" fish have learned to look for things that are "wrong" as well???

Well, my speculations were just musings.  To me, it remains a great mystery that fish will overlook something so conspicuous.  On the other hand, say a fish ignores a nymph presented once, twice, and takes it on the third cast.  It might well be that, just by chance, the fly was turned the third time in a way to present a top or bottom view (with the bare hook bend hidden), while the first two times, again by chance alone, the fly passed the fish turned in a way that presented the fly more in profile, with the bend more exposed. When fishing the traditional downstream swing for steelhead here in the PNW, one tactic is to throw upstream mends to slow down the swing, allowing the fish the longest possible view of the fly (a good tactic when swinging soft hackles for trout, too).  A disadvantage is that unless you use a riffle hitch or some such, the view the fish has tends to be a butt-on, reduced view.  It addition to the riffle hitch, a greased line presentation also serves to give the fish a full profile view of the fly.  The difference (from fishing for trout) is that you just want the steelhead to see the very most of whatever silhouette the fly happens to have, to maximize the sheer provocation value of the fly–you’re not trying to imitate any particular natural foodstuff.  Here the more bare hook you have visible, maybe the better.  Some manufacturers are now producing bright gold, green, red and blue salmon/steelhead hooks.  Why waste all that bare metal when you can dress it up? JR

Response:

I’ve often wondered about that "big-ass curvy part", but most of the time it doesn’t seem to bother the trout’s attraction to the lure.

Good thing, too, otherwise we’d all have to find another sport.  ;)  I guess that’s what amazes me:  that it *doesn’t* bother the fish while very minor differences in other parts of the fly will make a difference. JR

Response:

Maybe that big curvy part looks like an ovipositor.  See my web site www.sluttyflies.com

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I believe that many streams (I know of three) where the fish are "opportunistic" — that is, if it looks like it could be food, they will strike it.  On the rivers I recently visited in Idaho, there was no hatch, yet they readily took a humpy or a Klinkhammer, the bigger the better.  The guide gave my grandson a #10 red humpy and I marveled at its effectiveness.   This is just the opposite of another river I fish – when there is no hatch, the fish will rise to a very small, well presented dry.  Nymphing the rivers in Idaho was very successful, but again you had to give them a big nymph.  My #18s and 20s were useless.  Those same 18s and 20s on another river will catch many fish.

"Bigger is better" is right. I seldom use dries smaller than #12 or nymphs smaller than #14 in those Idaho waters you fished. I think the deal is that they’re relatively sterile freestone rivers. The fish jump on whatever they see that looks edible. Large, good floating Chernobyl patterns with dropper nymphs are very effective. So are large orange stimulators. You can catch these fish with an indicator attached to a bare hook. I only use the standard nymph patterns — pheasant tails, hare’s ears, prince nymphs, and lately copper johns. Also, the fish are mostly cutthroats, which are notoriously gullible. It doesn’t make for particularly challenging fishing (aside from the ass-busting hiking to get to the good spots), but it’s fun. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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John replies:  I’d have thought, though, it was also more important with subsurface flies than with dries, first because the "profile" of the bend is reduced when viewed from below,

But,one can build the body into most of the bend, use hook shape to the advantage of simulation. it may be that the bare part of the hook is somewhat masked by the dimples and associated halos caused by the hackle and tail.

I disagree. If you watch how a fresh, well hackled dry fly floats, the hook penetrates the surface,except for a tightly palmered hackle. Most dries settle right on top of the surface with the body, with some hackle tips in the water and the ones on the sides doing the work of holding the fly up. Anyhow, the hook will be seen, and quite distinctly from the body silhouette.                              Tom L

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John writes: just what do we imagine the fish make of that big long hook bend

I think, but have no proof for it, that hook recognition develops in fish over time and that this is a major part of what we anglers call "selective behavior". I feel this is mostly a factor with flies at/near the surface, and more an issue in slower, richer streams that offer more time for the fish to observe their prey. On many subsurface patterns, and even some surface emerger types, the hook bend can serve to mimic the shape of the natural nymph,pupa or whatever.                                Tom L

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John writes: just what do we imagine the fish make of that big long hook bend I think, but have no proof for it, that hook recognition develops in fish over time and that this is a major part of what we anglers call "selective behavior". I feel this is mostly a factor with flies at/near the surface, and more an issue in slower, richer streams that offer more time for the fish to observe their prey. On many subsurface patterns, and even some surface emerger types, the hook bend can serve to mimic the shape of the natural nymph,pupa or whatever.

When I first read the header to this post I ignored because I thought it was sex site SPAM!!!!!!! What you say may very well be true, but like I said in another post, it’s something that confirms my opinion that fish perceive our flies in a very different way from the way we do. That "big-ass curvy part" is very evident to me and seems even more prevalent in smaller flies. Maybe they ignore it because they tend to look for certain things that are "right" about a fly or for a certain trigger instead of things that are "wrong." Maybe those "educated" fish have learned to look for things that are "wrong" as well??? Willi

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi writes: John writes: just what do we imagine the fish make of that big long hook bend I think, but have no proof for it, that hook recognition develops in fish over time and that this is a major part of what we anglers call "selective behavior". I feel this is mostly a factor with flies at/near the surface, and more an issue in slower, richer streams that offer more time for the fish to observe their prey. On many subsurface patterns, and even some surface emerger types, the hook bend can serve to mimic the shape of the natural nymph,pupa or whatever. When I first read the header to this post I ignored because I thought it was sex site SPAM!!!!!!! What you say may very well be true, but like I said in another post, it’s something that confirms my opinion that fish perceive our flies in a very different way from the way we do. That "big-ass curvy part" is very evident to me and seems even more prevalent in smaller flies. Maybe they ignore it because they tend to look for certain things that are "right" about a fly or for a certain trigger instead of things that are "wrong." Maybe those "educated" fish have learned to look for things that are "wrong" as well??? Willi

I believe that many streams (I know of three) where the fish are "opportunistic" — that is, if it looks like it could be food, they will strike it.  On the rivers I recently visited in Idaho, there was no hatch, yet they readily took a humpy or a Klinkhammer, the bigger the better.  The guide gave my grandson a #10 red humpy and I marveled at its effectiveness.   This is just the opposite of another river I fish – when there is no hatch, the fish will rise to a very small, well presented dry.  Nymphing the rivers in Idaho was very successful, but again you had to give them a big nymph.  My #18s and 20s were useless.  Those same 18s and 20s on another river will catch many fish. I’ve often wondered about that "big-ass curvy part", but most of the time it doesn’t seem to bother the trout’s attraction to the lure. Dave

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The recent discussion about wings, fishes’ perception, etc., reminded me of something I’ve often wondered, even marveled about–one of those things that come unbidden to mind on the thousandth (or two thousandth) fishless cast of the day on a steelhead river. Those of us who agonize over the minutiae of wing size, or number of fibers in the tail, or shade of copper in the ribbing:  just what do we imagine the fish make of that big long hook bend that on some patterns constitutes 50% or more of the whole gestalt (if you’ll pardon the word) presented to the fish?  Think of some ties you’ve seen of English PTs or soft hackles on those short hooks with absolutely huge gaps; yet these are effective flies.  You’d think (regardless of your species-specific sense of perception) that this big ol’ ugly THING just hanging there off the bottom of our handiwork is a lot more obvious than the many fine details we obsess over.  Why on earth would any trout swimming not key on THAT? I’d imagine the influence of the hook bend is least when the fly is viewed from directly above (in which case for most flies, it’s invisible); almost as little when viewed from directly below; slightly greater when viewed at an oblique angle above, behind, or to side; and greatest when viewed at right angles from the side.   If this is right, could it be one reason (in addition to the commonly cited ones) a straight downstream presentation of a dry is successful when casting to selective fish on calm waters?  Could there be implications for presentation of nymphs in slower water?  A reason why LaFontaine’s sparkle pupa (with the bend shrouded) is so effective?  A reason to use nothing but the lightest wire hooks available? (A reason for me to get a life and think about more useful things?) JR

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn

Several points to ponder: Get Garcia’s book on graphite rodbuilding. tons of good info there, especially if you’ll be turning the rod by hand. also: Instead of 5 minute epoxy for the reel seat, etc, go for something with a slightly longer cure time. I found some 15′ stuff that worked well, and was even stronger. makes you a bit less nervous about getting everything the way you want it in 5′ as well. Keep redoing the wraps until they’re just the way you want them. Wrap the winding check last; it’s the most visible wrap when you’re fishing, and by saving it for the end, you’ll have all that practice beforehand. Take one last look at the wraps and the guide alignment before you mix the rod finish. Once the epoxy goes on the rod, there’s no turning back. Use syringes to measure the epoxy and hardener, and use only syringes made/sold expressly for rodbuilding. Medical syringes, while cheap and abundant, have nothing to offer the rodbuilder but misery and regret. You *will* get bubbles in the finished wraps. Steam from a cup of hot water will make them go away. I’ve hand-turned all my rods and gotten nice results. Got nothing against the automatic turners, just don’t have one. Follow Garcia’s suggestions for turning intervals and you should be fine. I strongly suggest that you use an oven timer or something similar to remind you to get up and turn the rod, especially near the end, when the intervals have stretched to 30-60′. Finally, my overall advice is to be patient, and do a quality job. Your care (or haste) in building it will be evident for many years. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

Acetone must be used with great care near rods. It will eat into the blank and damage it irreparably. Alcohol is better for wiping off excess epoxy for this reason. TL MC

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Thanks Guys,  I’m going crazy waiting for the damn thing to arrive in the mail.I was hoping to get it done this week while I’m still on vacation.I have a video and a pretty good book so I’m hoping things will go pretty smoothly, but no book or video can prepare you for my own personal style of screwups.My attitude is if I mess up I’ll just scrape it off and start over until I get it right. Regards,Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion Acetone must be used with great care near rods. It will eat into the blank and damage it irreparably. Alcohol is better for wiping off excess epoxy for this reason. TL MC

Response:

Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn

Response:

I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders.

They watch some damn show that captures their interest and don’t turn the rod often enough. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – regards,Shawn

Response:

I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. It starts with opening the package and goes down hill from there. The bright side is…you learn from every mistake. Have fun…it really ain’t that hard. jim

Response:

Its already been said –  Epoxy keeps flowing after you’r really sure it’s set up.  You may turn the thing for hours and be sure it set, so you put it up.  Next morning bumps where overnight the stuff has continued to flow.  If you can jury rig something to turn it do so ( I made one cheap using a dryer timing motor 6RPM) If you have never built or repaired a rod before I suggest going to Goodwill or Salvation Army and buying one.  Redo the guides and then give it back to them, it’s cheap practice. Good Luck

I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -builders. regards,Shawn

Response:

Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn

Here’s a couple of items could save you some grief. Don’t use 5 minute epoxy to put on the reel seat or the handle. It can take longer than 5 minutes to get things properly situated. Use something with a longer pot life. Be real careful mixing up the wrap coating epoxy lest it set sticky. Use a minimum of 3 cc’s of each component when mixing. This will tend to minimize the error in measuring equal quantities. The stuff tends to be real sensitive to silicones which tend to be found in plastic measuring and mixing cups, stirring rods etc. There are these special syringes supplied by the coating maker for measuring the stuff which are guaranteed free of it. Don’t use any substitutes. Mix the stuff up in something made of glass like a shot glass and stir it with something like a stainless steel spoon handle. Denatured alcohol will work as a solvent to clean up afterward. good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

Be real careful mixing up the wrap coating epoxy lest it set sticky. Use a minimum of 3 cc’s of each component when mixing. This will tend to minimize the error in measuring equal quantities.

Good advice all around.  Equal parts is a good thing.  I’ve been able to use steel kitchen measuring spoons to mix up 1 teaspoon at a time w/o problems. Mu

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey All, I’ve finally taken the plunge and decided to Build my first fly rod.I’ve ordered a St.Croix Avid nine foot seven weight.I figured I’d go with a kit for my first one so that at least all the components would match and I didn’t want to spend too much money in case I  f**k it up.This rod will fill nicely a gap in my rod collection.I like flyfishing for largemouths and my nine weight seems like overkill and my six weight not enough.I’m not buying any fancy tools (yet),I’m going to be doing it the old way using a heavy book for tension and turning the rod every few minutes while I watch t.v..I’d appreciate any tips on what usually goes wrong for first time rod builders. regards,Shawn Here’s a couple of items could save you some grief. Don’t use 5 minute epoxy to put on the reel seat or the handle. It can take longer than 5 minutes to get things properly situated. Use something with a longer pot life. Be real careful mixing up the wrap coating epoxy lest it set sticky. Use a minimum of 3 cc’s of each component when mixing. This will tend to minimize the error in measuring equal quantities. The stuff tends to be real sensitive to silicones which tend to be found in plastic measuring and mixing cups, stirring rods etc. There are these special syringes supplied by the coating maker for measuring the stuff which are guaranteed free of it. Don’t use any substitutes. Mix the stuff up in something made of glass like a shot glass and stir it with something like a stainless steel spoon handle. Denatured alcohol will work as a solvent to clean up afterward.

A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

… Denatured alcohol will work as a solvent to clean up afterward. A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson

There is some opinion out there that acetone attacks rod finishes. Denatured alcohol has worked quite well for me for cleaning up epoxy that’s still in the fluid state, and it’s arguably less toxic for skin contact and vapor too. But acetone may be the right answer if the stuff has started to set up and you need to get it off. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971          

Response:

I’d rather throw a few spoons and shot glasses away than mess around with acetone in the  house.   Very flamable. Great stuff if your an arsonist because it leaves almost no residue. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

I’d rather throw a few spoons and shot glasses away than mess around with acetone in the  house.   Very flamable. Great stuff if your an arsonist because it leaves almost no residue. A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone.

Or just go to a charity store and buy a "china" (i.e., not plastic) dinner plate and a few dinner/butter knives.  The plate "palette" will lhave room for several batches. TC, R

Response:

Actually not.It leaves a distinct burn pattern that is readily aparent to an accomplished fire investigator. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d rather throw a few spoons and shot glasses away than mess around with acetone in the  house.   Very flamable. Great stuff if your an arsonist because it leaves almost no residue. A * much * better solvent for epoxies is acetone. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion good luck Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories Phone: (650)-857-5491               Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971

Response:

Question:

Several people e-mailed, asking if these stories are true…….

Never doubted your veracity myself.  As a matter of fact, it never occurred to me to wonder whether or not any of your stories are true.  Now that the subject has been broached, I am forced to wonder why anyone would concern him or her self with such a question.  There is no doubt in my feeble little mind that "Huckleberry Finn", "Gulliver’s Travels", and perhaps even "A Midsummer Night’s Dream" would fail the test of scholarly historiography.  Should this prove to be the case, I suspect that they would all nevertheless continue to draw readers and furthermore, that it would not detract one whit from the truth contained in these timeless stories. In other words, fuck ‘em.  You go Mike. Wolfgang

Response:

Several people e-mailed, asking if these stories are true, and if so, how on earth such things could happen to me…

Hi Mike, I do enjoy this stuff: up to your usual form. I have tried to e-mail you privately, but have had no replies. Is it not getting through? Best & Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Had a little problem with some software. Maybe that is the reason ?  I saw no posts from you recently. Lookout Distress is once again living up to its name, coupled with the arcane machinations of the German Telecom, it makes Brown trucks look like heavenly chariots. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Several people e-mailed, asking if these stories are true, and if so, how on earth such things could happen to me… Hi Mike, I do enjoy this stuff: up to your usual form. I have tried to e-mail you privately, but have had no replies. Is it not getting through? Best & Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Thanks Chris,  very kind of you to say so. Care must be taken in some instances though, not all of my exploits and methods are suitable for emulation. My track record with poachers for instance is quite abysmal. TL MC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —- Mike, I for one enjoy your vast knowledge and experiences.  I never thought for a moment that they did not ring of truth and I have employed some of your past suggestions with success, I might mention.

Response:

I had trouble shooting Teel when I first started duck hunting.  It was because they fly much faster than the other ducks.  I consistently shot behind them.  I finally got so I could hit one, but never could hit a Snipe. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you spend a great deal of time and energy on something, several things tend to occur. You  become fairly good at it, and you experience a lot more things than if you only occasionally did it. A few weeks ago, I was out duck hunting (OBROFF: gathering CDC feathers.)  I had just flushed a flock of mallards out of a slough, and I was crouched down in the grass hoping some of them might come back, when a pair of blue wing teal appeared out of nowhere, crossed in front of me and settled on opposite edge of the water, out of range. I sat still for another 15 minutes or so with one eye on the teal and one eye on the horizon, where the mallards were still flying.  There was a sound of wingbeats overhead and suddenly there was an enormous redtailed hawk, hot in pursuit of the teal.  The teal dove underwater, but the water was only a foot or so deep so the hawk had no trouble following them, hovering over the water, wings beating furiously like a huge kestrel.  The teal eventually made good their escape, flying right past me.  I suppose I could have shot them fairly easily, but it didn’t seem quite right.  I just stared, filled with awe and wonderment at my good fortune to have been a witness. I would have never seen it happen if I hadn’t been out there, and what possible other reason could I have to be crouched down in the weeds next to a slough out on the prairie?  I think I have posted before my belief that the reason we go out hunting or fishing or whatever is not so much to gather fish or game (unless we seriously need the food), but to gather interesting stories to tell.  The fishing is fun, but it is also a reason to get out of the house and out into the world and let things happen to us. Kevin

Response:

Several people e-mailed, asking if these stories are true, and if so, how on earth such things could happen to me.  I have attempted to explain this in the past, I seem to remember even on here, but for those who missed it the first time, ( assuming I did in fact explain it before on here), here it is again.

<snipped, but deeply appreciated —- Mike, I for one enjoy your vast knowledge and experiences.  I never thought for a moment that they did not ring of truth and I have employed some of your past suggestions with success, I might mention.  The reason some people may question your veracity could be that the have led colorless lives themselves and are judging your life experience against the standard of being a spector of life instead of participating in life as you have. In a given week, I tend to do a lot of different things.  When someone asked me how I did so many things, I told them, simply, "I do not own a television."  I have a VCR player hooked to a video monitor for some of my instructional videos that I own, but I NEVER watch television.  Since the average American, according to one source, watches an astounding 40+ hours of television a week, it is small wonder where I find the "extra" time to indulge myself in my many varied interests. —- Padishar Creel "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work…I want to achieve it through not dying."  – Woody Allen

Response:

Thanks Chris,  very kind of you to say so. Care must be taken in some instances though, not all of my exploits and methods are suitable for emulation. My track record with poachers for instance is quite abysmal.

—– So is my experience with Game Wardens, as it so happens <G — Padishar Creel "I don’t want to achieve immortality through my work…I want to achieve it through not dying."  – Woody Allen

Response:

Mike,   Some have doubted the veracity of my many misadventures, but any doubts were laid to rest at the Rappahanock Clave (read Frank meets tent stake).   Your stories are so wonderful because we, as a group, can identify with the situations.  As a whole, I’m sure it would take the combined experience of ROFF to match your own.  We thank you for sharing yours. We will not match yours (thinking about going beak to beak with an owl is a tough way to get into PETA’s bad boy book. Go strangle a pheasant me boyo.  Very proper that.).  We will however, experience that vicarious thrill of looking at the world through your eyes as we slog through the day-to-day life with our commutes and lousy jobs.    Your every story conjurs up the fun of a Guy Fawkesian tale.  You have the unwitting anti-hero (you), the protagonist (the sea,a crazed bus driver, a policeman), an injured victim (an owl or the bloomin bloomerless WI) and a common thread of life just outside of the bounds of control, a train wreck waiting to happen.    I will often piggy back on your stories.  Like stories around a campfire, or more properly, in front of a fire in a ghillie hut, single malt in hand, they become seeds for other stories and ROFF threads. I’m glad you’re back.      Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

I would have never seen it happen if I hadn’t been out there, and what possible other reason could I have to be crouched down in the weeds next to a slough out on the prairie?  

That’s an astonishing observation, Kevin. I’ve felt the same thing on many occasions. People who don’t hunt or fish can’t really understand what it’s like to experience this stuff. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I had trouble shooting Teel when I first started duck hunting.  It was because they fly much faster than the other ducks.  I consistently shot behind them.  I finally got so I could hit one, but never could hit a Snipe. Ernie

Too bad, Keith at Grindstone Angling has been bugging me about finding him some snipe.  I could’ve gotten a pretty penny out of him if you were any good.  :)  I was holding out on him, but he recently got his own computer and you’d never guess who he dug up all by hisself. Mike, truth always has been stranger than fiction.  I look on your stories as a life spent in an endless "Carry On" movie.  There are far worse fates.  :)   A rich life always appears untrue to those who rarely try to extend their lives beyond the poverty of their spirit. Peter

Response:

If you spend a great deal of time and energy on something, several things tend to occur. You  become fairly good at it, and you experience a lot more things than if you only occasionally did it.

A few weeks ago, I was out duck hunting (OBROFF: gathering CDC feathers.)  I had just flushed a flock of mallards out of a slough, and I was crouched down in the grass hoping some of them might come back, when a pair of blue wing teal appeared out of nowhere, crossed in front of me and settled on opposite edge of the water, out of range. I sat still for another 15 minutes or so with one eye on the teal and one eye on the horizon, where the mallards were still flying.  There was a sound of wingbeats overhead and suddenly there was an enormous redtailed hawk, hot in pursuit of the teal.  The teal dove underwater, but the water was only a foot or so deep so the hawk had no trouble following them, hovering over the water, wings beating furiously like a huge kestrel.  The teal eventually made good their escape, flying right past me.  I suppose I could have shot them fairly easily, but it didn’t seem quite right.  I just stared, filled with awe and wonderment at my good fortune to have been a witness. I would have never seen it happen if I hadn’t been out there, and what possible other reason could I have to be crouched down in the weeds next to a slough out on the prairie?  I think I have posted before my belief that the reason we go out hunting or fishing or whatever is not so much to gather fish or game (unless we seriously need the food), but to gather interesting stories to tell.  The fishing is fun, but it is also a reason to get out of the house and out into the world and let things happen to us. Kevin

Response:

Several people e-mailed, asking if these stories are true, and if so, how on earth such things could happen to me.  I have attempted to explain this in the past, I seem to remember even on here, but for those who missed it the first time, ( assuming I did in fact explain it before on here), here it is again. Well, first of all, for quite a long time, I was so fanatical about fishing, that I often went seven days a week, I did not much care where, or for what, I simply took every available opportunity, and even if none was apparently available, I made one. Sometimes I only went for an hour, school, work, and other things allowing, ( and often even if they did not allow it, school bored me to death, and I rarely attended, I went fishing instead), and sometimes I disappeared for days, or even weeks. During these times, all I did was fish, and read, and what I read was also mostly about fishing. When I first started seriously fishing, the main reason was to catch fish for food. As it was absolutely imperative that I catch something to eat, I did not mess about very much, if at all, I made a point of discovering the best methods, ( for "best", read,  "most successful in terms of edible fish caught "), and applied them diligently, with considerable success. Not all of these methods were equally enjoyable, some were certainly not "fair", although to me all were enjoyable to some extent, (even hauling nets at sea, or longlining, which I also did for a while), but most were extremely successful, when correctly practiced, and as enjoyment was not the main driving factor, this did not really matter in any case. What I am trying to explain here, is that the enjoyment was more or less completely incidental initially. Fishing was not a way of "killing time", or "pursuing an interest", "a hobby", or all the other various euphemisms one often hears for various pastimes. It was a way of obtaining food for nothing, and it was also very cheap, healthy,  and fulfilling entertainment. I never considered fishing, or anything even remotely connected with it to be  work, although I knew a few who did. If you spend a great deal of time and energy on something, several things tend to occur. You  become fairly good at it, and you experience a lot more things than if you only occasionally did it. If the subject also interests you per se, and you also perhaps have a certain talent for it,  then you get even better at it, you really have no choice in the matter, it is a simple progression. One thing leads to another. Before I was twenty years old I had caught more fish, and spent more time on the water, often in the company of experts, than many men will ever do in their whole lifetimes. For years I gave lessons in tying and casting to various local clubs, spent weekends teaching fly-fishing for the local water authority, giving fly-dressing demos at various fairs, ( long before tying became as popular as it is now), etc etc etc. In the years that followed, the frequency of my trips decreased of course, you may play truant from school with relative impunity, but if you play truant from work you will eventually be sacked.( Fired ! ). Nevertheless, I still managed to spend a great deal of time on the water, or involved in some way. I had become firm friends with many other anglers, and people connected with angling, and because of this, I received opportunities which others did not. Anything to do with fishing interested me, and I went out of my way to be part of anything at all where fish or fishing was involved.  All the time my interest remained steady, and I read every book or magazine that I could lay my hands on. When I got the chance, I went fishing with others, some of them already world or at least nationally renowned experts at that time, others perhaps less well known, but experts nonetheless, and of course with lots of other people, who were neither well known nor experts. All contributed to my angling education. Much of what I read, learned, or simply saw,  I immediately put into practice. What I could not buy, I built, ( basically why I started tying flies as well ), insofar as it was within my capabilities to do so. Astoundingly enough, one discovers fairly early on that most things are not that hard to do, what one man can invent or design, another man can build, given reasonable intelligence,  time, persistence,  and materials. Simply attempting this, hones your capabilities automatically, until you reach a point where you find very few things difficult. At a fairly early point during these years, the need to catch fish for food decreased, and eventually disappeared entirely, but my enthusiasm for fishing did not, and I continued reading about it, and fishing a great deal, but now purely for enjoyment, the fish having become an incidental bonus to the entertainment, and so it has remained to this day. Apparently I have a very selective, but almost photographic memory, for things concerning fishing. It took me almost fifteen years before I finally managed to remember my wife’s birthday, but I only have to see a fly pattern once, and it is fixed forever in my memory.  I can not remember my own mobile phone number for more than a day, and constantly have to look it up, but I can remember every single run on every single river or stream I have ever fished with brilliant clarity. Even those I fished over thirty years ago. Although a fairly good navigator, and with an excellent sense of direction, I can not remember a street in a city which I visited last week, but I can find my way across the North York Moors, from any point you care to mention, to any stream or valley within hundreds of square miles with absolutely pin-point accuracy, in the pitch dark, with no moon or stars and in heavy snow or fog. I can do the same here, in the Lueneburger Heide. I have no idea why I can do this, or even how, I just can. I wish I did know, I would certainly apply the talent to something else if I possibly could. I can not remember whether it rained yesterday, but  I can remember  every sizeable fish I have ever caught, where I caught it, how I caught it, and what the weather conditions were at the time. I can "see" these things in my mind, like a film which may be rewound and replayed at will.  I could give more examples, but I suppose you get the drift. Regarding actually fishing, if I absolutely must catch a fish, then I do, I do not find it particularly difficult. Nowadays I do not bother with extremely productive methods much, as I find other methods more enjoyable, even though they are less productive.  The size of fish caught has ceased to bother me very much, although it is nice to catch a large one now and then, as the fight is simply more interesting and challenging. Somebody on here said ( I believe it was Willi actually ), some time ago now, that he had more or less ceased nymphing, as although it was extremely productive in terms of fish, it was hard work, and got boring after a while.  I feel much the same about some methods. It is just too easy, although perhaps hard work, and therefore not worth the bother.  This doubtless sounds extremely arrogant, but it is nevertheless simple fact. Catching one very difficult fish from a challenging position, or for other reasons, ( actually regardless of size ) is much more enjoyable than banging out a dozen in double quick time with an easy method, or because the fish are madly on the feed, and have thrown caution to the winds. Unfortunately this applies to many "new" methods as well. There are not many angling books I have not read, and there are not many methods, tackle, or materials,  I do not at least know something about. Once read or seen, never forgotten. I can even remember shotting patterns somebody once showed me, again over thirty years ago. Often I am quite amused when I read about some "new" method of tying flies, or casting, or a host of other things. Invariably these things are not new at all, and in all likelihood have been around for quite a while, in some cases for centuries. I remember being extremely crushed over thirty five years ago, when I sent in a parachute version of the Greenwell

Question:

But Ken, who makes those blanks? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot I don’t have experience with their spinning rod blanks, but in flyrods I’m impressed with Angler’s Workshop IM6 blanks, for the money. http://www.anglersworkshop.com — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

But Ken, who makes those blanks?

Does it matter ? It’s quality IM6 graphite, or at least their flyrods are, for a good price. I suppose if you were to tell me that they’re manufactured by starving slaves in a third world hovel and marketed by profiteering commies using the proceeds to finance the violent overthrow of the US government, I would probably expect them to be a lot cheaper , but I’ve done business with Angler’s Workshop in the past and have been quite happy. Of course, this assumes that the original poster can buy whatever blank he wants. Most custom builders that I know of insist on using their own blanks or charge a premium to build a rod on the customer’s blank. I use Angler’s Workshop ’cause I roll my own. YMMV — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Do you continue to pay retail prices for these blanks you buy? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But Ken, who makes those blanks? Does it matter ? It’s quality IM6 graphite, or at least their flyrods are, for a good price. I suppose if you were to tell me that they’re manufactured by starving slaves in a third world hovel and marketed by profiteering commies using the proceeds to finance the violent overthrow of the US government, I would probably expect them to be a lot cheaper , but I’ve done business with Angler’s Workshop in the past and have been quite happy. Of course, this assumes that the original poster can buy whatever blank he wants. Most custom builders that I know of insist on using their own blanks or charge a premium to build a rod on the customer’s blank. I use Angler’s Workshop ’cause I roll my own. YMMV — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Do you continue to pay retail prices for these blanks you buy?

Sure. I’m just a do-it-yourselfer who buys blanks for personal use and the occasional birthday gift/Christmas present. I wouldn’t expect a quantity discount or a professional discount. I assume when you find a blank that you like that you buy several of the same blank at a time. I buy ‘em one at a time as I need them,and I hardly ever buy the same blank twice. Apples & oranges, RodMaker, you’re a pro who deserves his discount, I’m just an amateur hobbyist. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ok, One thing I should have made more clear concerning the Lamiglass (Perigee) series. What I meant was that Lamiglass designed these blanks for custom builders(already stated that) but what I forgot to mention was that Lamiglass themselves will not use these blanks to build rods for resale! Have you tried their fly rod blanks yet? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (aka) The Shadow

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you continue to pay retail prices for these blanks you buy? Sure. I’m just a do-it-yourselfer who buys blanks for personal use and the occasional birthday gift/Christmas present. I wouldn’t expect a quantity discount or a professional discount. I assume when you find a blank that you like that you buy several of the same blank at a time. I buy ‘em one at a time as I need them,and I hardly ever buy the same blank twice. Apples & oranges, RodMaker, you’re a pro who deserves his discount, I’m just an amateur hobbyist. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… Have you tried their fly rod blanks yet?

No, I haven’t. Lamiglas doesn’t make a 10′ 7wt. blank. The next flyrod I build for bassin’ will be a 10′ 7wt. I like the 10′ length because I sit so close to the water in my canoe. I like a slow action flyrod, that’s why I’m so partial to IM6, and my current 10′ 7wt. is sloooooow. But while a slow action rod is great for some things, bassin’ ain’t one of them, I’d like a faster action for bassin’. I’ll probably build the new one on a Sage 71003SP, it’s a lot faster than my current rod but still slow enough to be comfortable for me. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

The next flyrod I build for bassin’ will be a 10′ 7wt. I like the 10′ length because I sit so close to the water in my canoe. I like a slow action flyrod, that’s why I’m so partial to IM6, and my current 10′ 7wt. is sloooooow. But while a slow action rod is great for some things, bassin’ ain’t one of them, I’d like a faster action for bassin’. I’ll probably build the new one on a Sage 71003SP, it’s a lot faster than my current rod but still slow enough to be comfortable for me. — Ken Fortenberry

Hey Ken, It’s been a while since I built a new rod and I’m getting the fever.  I never thought of using a 10 footer or a 7 weight, but reading your post makes me want to hear more from you on the idea.  What conditions do you fish in?  What bugs do you throw?  Etc? I do some fly fishing from kickboats and tubes.  I don’t generally make long casts because it’s so easy to simply position my craft so that I’m the right distance from what ever target I choose.  My current fly rod is a 20-year-old Cabela’s 9 foot 8 weight.  The reason I use this particular rod is that it is the rod I happen to own and carry in my truck.   Now I’m starting to fish more from a sit-on-top kayak which is much better suited for covering distances of water than either a tube or a kickboat.  But it’s not as easy to position and is far more susceptible to the wind.  For those times when it’s hard to hold a position near the shoreline, I can see the advantage of a longer rod, but I don’t understand the advantage of a slower rod, or of the 7 weight.  (As I write this, it just occurred to me that if you add a foot in length, your wrist and arm will very likely be tireder at the end of the day and that a lighter rod might well be a blessing — is that it?)  At any rate, I’d like to hear more about the advantages of a slow rod vs. a faster rod, etc. etc.   —– Family, Friends, Fishing Rob Storm http://www.stormsrestaurants.com

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Hey Ken, It’s been a while since I built a new rod and I’m getting the fever.  I never thought of using a 10 footer or a 7 weight, but reading your post makes me want to hear more from you on the idea.  What conditions do you fish in?  What bugs do you throw?  Etc?

Hi Rob, My "home water" is a collection of reclaimed strip mine ponds and the tributaries of the Vermillion River in east central Illinois. http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.106&lon=-87.7429&size=s&s=50 Conditions here on the prairie are usually windy and I fish out of a canoe. I’ll throw everything in the box at ‘em, poppers, Dahlberg divers, Clouser minnows, bunny leeches, wooly buggers, deer hair frogs etc., everything but crayfish flies, I don’t like fishin’ down on the bottom and losing 6 flies an hour. The difference between 7 & 8 wt is personal preference, the 8wt is the classic weight for a bass flyrod but a 7wt has enough backbone. The 10′ length gets the rod tip up a bit off the water, which is an advantage when you’re sitting low in the water like in a canoe (or a kayak). It’s also an advantage on a stream for mending and rollcasting. … I’d like to hear more about the advantages of a slow rod vs. a faster rod, etc. etc.

To oversimplify and generalize, slow action rods are preferred for delicate presentation (dry flies), and chucking a lot of weight (split shot to get nymphs down). Fast action rods are preferred for powering through the wind and for tossing big wind eating flies like deer hair and bigger poppers. So for bass fishin’ most folks prefer a faster action flyrod. My current 10′ 7wt is a Thomas & Thomas XL, a slow action rod that’s ideal for steelhead but not so for bassin’. A slow 7/8 wt rod can double as a steelhead rod and a pike/carp rod while a fast 7/8 wt rod can double as a bass rod and a bonefish rod. That’s why I’d like to build another 10′ 7wt on a faster blank. Take care, — Ken Fortenberry

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Hi Ken, Thanks for the info.  I think the last slow fly rod I had was an old glass Herter rod I built in the early ’60s.  Maybe it’s time to try another.   I agree with you about fishing on the bottom.  It never appealed to me even though I know that with a sinking line and a floating bug you can show the fish a presentation they don’t often see.  When I fish a fly rod, I like the action to be right in front of me.  Flies or plugs, I like my lure to be on the surface whenever possible. You mention pike and carp.  I’ve caught the odd carp while casting small streamers for white bass, but I’ve never had the pleasure of fighting a pike on a fly rod.  Am planning a trip to Andrew Lake in Alberta for June 2001.  I ‘ll probably take along a 5 weight for grayling, but after reading your post, I might want to pack the 8 weight as well.   Thanks again for the info. —– Family, Friends, Fishing Rob Storm http://www.stormsrestaurants.com

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     if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot

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     if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot

Personally I would go with whatever RodMaker here in this group told me to. Good fishing, Richard L. LaFay  | (248) 753-6940 (work) 2887 Pontiac Court  | (248) 373-6865 (home) Auburn Hills, Michigan   48326 Ranger Boats, Lowrance Electronics, Berkley Trilene, Rippler, Bill Norman Lures, and Aqua-Vu underwater cameras. I use them because I think they’re the best!

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     if you had a chance to have a custom rod made, whos blank would you chose?     light spinning rod , 6 to 6 1/2 foot

I don’t have experience with their spinning rod blanks, but in flyrods I’m impressed with Angler’s Workshop IM6 blanks, for the money. http://www.anglersworkshop.com — Ken Fortenberry

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Question:

Mike Conner is the kind of fly fishing gentleman that I would  welcome to have him set up his fly tying vise next to mine and spend several days together . . . musing and inventing and comparing signatures.  Mike Conner always has a chair waiting him in my den of fly fishing affairs. Mr. G.

Well that is very kind of you George and I am sure you mean it, and I thank you for saying it. I am sure that if we stuck to flyfishing we would have a great time. I am proud of the fact that you invited me. Unfortunately I do not think I would be able to accept an invitation at the moment, especially in the light of some of your recent posts. My views on some things are obviously diametrically opposed to some of yours, and I am very much afraid we would end up in a heated argument, having nothing whatever to do with flyfishing ,  to no good purpose.  I do not wish to be unfriendly or insulting to you, in fact  I respect many of your achievements, and I have tried hard to be friendly, notwithstanding a few run ins we had on earlier occasions, but feel I must state the case as I see it. It is not my place to censure you publicly, this is a free group and you have the right to say what you like, and I am sure you can get along very well without my presumptuous advice. I will presume to give you some anyway, which is meant sincerely from someone who is truly trying his best to be friendly and helpful. Please try and moderate your tone in your posts, and try and think a bit more before you jump in with both feet on any and all subjects.  You have succeeded in upsetting a great many people recently, some very badly,  to no good purpose, and this will only result in unfriendliness, insults etc being cast in your direction, and is also bad for the group as a whole. You obviously have a lot to offer this group, and it is a shame that you constantly undermine your own position with nonsensical ranting and ill-considered statements or insults to all and sundry. It sometimes looks as if you were purposely inflaming people and making enemies of them deliberately. You must know yourself that this is no good, either for your person or your business.  Please George, take a rest and look back at some of your posts in the cold light of day, and I am sure you will realise that this sort of thing does nobody any good. Of seventy posts you sent in a very short space of time at least half were denigrating and insulting to somebody.   If you screw up on something, OK, so what, we all do occasionally, but most of us accept this and attempt to rectify matters as soon as possible. Blustering away as if nothing had occurred is not the way to do this. I accept and respect the fact that you are angry about the wanton destruction of the wilderness, and many other things, and your genuine desire to rectify matters, so are many others on this group and elsewhere. The methods proposed and the  type of posting you have been using is not the way to advance. The same goes for insulting remarks about your competitors, involved political harangues, or jumping on somebody who advocates using some other product etc etc etc.  George believe me please, these are not the actions of a wise man. Maybe you are subjecting yourself to too much stress in all your various efforts to change the world and make it a better place. I can understand your passion in this, in fact I am certain many on this group feel similarly, allowing your unbridled passion free rein , is a very bad way of going about it however, and does not particularly enhance the clarity of your arguments, or your chances of success, and probably blinds you to reality to some extent, so that you strike out illogically at anything even remotely concerned with the subject, in a manner and tone which is guarateed to upset people. Quiet considered argumentation backed up by a good example is far more liable to be successful, and would result in mutual respect and greater friendliness on the part of all concerned. I thought very carefully indeed before posting this to the group, as opposed to just privately, as I do not on any account wish you to take this as an insult. I feel however somebody must say these things to you as directly as possible so that there is no possible chance of misunderstanding, and that there are people on the group who would also like to say them, but are for various reasons reluctant to do so, but would nevertheless like to see them said. George, please do me one more favour. Read this post carefully several times. Go away and think about it for a while, and then come back and read it again before you reply. Perhaps we may yet sit down one day in your den and tie a few flies or down a few grouses. I would like to think so. Whatever you may think or say George. I wish you well. Sincerely Mike Connor

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Are you related to Jimmy Connors? I was once flamed for misspelling his name.

No relation, and I dont play tennis, but I do have balls If I flamed everybody who spelled my name wrongly, my fingers would be smoking, and I would need a new keyboard twice a week. Tait  leins ! Maik Koner

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 Mike Conner is the kind of fly fishing gentleman that I would  welcome to have him set up his fly tying vise next to mine and spend several days together . . . musing and inventing and comparing signatures.  Mike Conner always has a chair waiting him in my den of fly fishing affairs. Mr. G.

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 Hell Wayno, where is the mouthpiece on a golf club ? Tight lines ! Mike Connor,  the ignorant

Wayne Harrison’s ass so bad, he will confess humbleness. —

Question:

my server down, testing

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my server down, testing

Lars You got through to the newsgroup just fine. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products On line catalog – tips & tricks at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.  Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park. Snow pack is at 200% in most of the Yellowstone area. Most rivers and tributaries will be high until Aug. Stick to the lakes. Guy

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June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park.

There is no Firehole outside the Park. <g  -AR

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Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.

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Expect Snow! Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June?

– Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

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Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.

 Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry

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My wife and I fished Yellowstone the last week of June 2 years ago when they had an unusually high run-off.  The only river fishable was the Firehole.

I can give you updates from time to time, but the snowpack here in the wyoming mountains is very high this year- I will not be a pretty spring. I plan on starting my fishing in August (no, I’m not joking)

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My wife and I fished Yellowstone the last week of June 2 years ago when they had an unusually high run-off.  The only river fishable was the Firehole.  We had pretty good luck about 3 miles below Old Faithful Inn – can’t remember the names of the river sections.  Every other river we tried was so full of water you couldn’t reasonably fish them. I suggest you wait until after 15 July. J. Bjostad John Bjostad Columbia Heights, MN Retired avionics engineer – full time fly fishing addict

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.  Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry

June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.  Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park.

 Hi Steve   You are right, PMD’s are in full swing, as well as the Winnabago emergence and the evening Mini Van fall. Makes for some real fun back casting, at Fountain Flats one can hook a  tuna sandwich and a Brown on the same cast     HM

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Question:

I am trying to create a ‘fly database’ which would include flies, materials and instructions for tying the fly, as well as maybe background on when to use the particular fly and where.  This db will eventually be online on my web page. If you would like to contribute (with acknowledgements) then please do so, this will be a very good resource for all. An example entry to the archive would be: Name of fly: Type of fly: Entymology, history etc: When generally used: Where used: Materials used for fly: Instructions/Steps for tying fly. any other information you might have. If you have any questions please send me mail for this as well… Matt — NICOH Net Internet Access Provider for Eastern Idaho

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        Are you aware that there is already a "virtual flybox" on the ‘Net which has various fly dressings?

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I am trying to create a ‘fly database’ which would include flies, materials and instructions for tying the fly, as well as maybe background on when to use the particular fly and where.  This db will eventually be online on my web page. If you would like to contribute (with acknowledgements) then please do so, this will be a very good resource for all.

There is a program available that will do that and keep pictures of your flies. See http://www.mind.net/vmt/ You can keep an inventory of any equipment, flies, and track expenses. You can have unlimited logs for each trip and unlimited trips. Presentation, water clarity, temperature, weather and other info is tracked in the fishing logs. The guys that wrote the program are fly fisherman that have been programming (and fishing) for many years.

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Question:

        On my first ocean cruise in 1981, I bought some "Offshore" foul weather gear at R.E.I. in Seattle.  Total piece of shit. After some pretty rough usage (we lost a rudder) and 31 days at sea, the seams leaked.  I took them back to R.E.I.  They said that they wern’t meant for the kind of sailing I do, but for the "weekend" sailor."  I said "Well why the fuck! do you call it "Offshore"? To make a long story short, they wouldn’t refund my money and it just confirmed my opinion of R.E.I. as a fashion house for frustrated yuuppies. Growing up in Seattle, I have resisted the R.E.I Clone look mightily although I have to admit, Pile Jackets are great for me as I’m allergic to wool.         Where is this leading to?         Buy Helly Hansen fisherman foul weather gear. No seams, no fly, no pockets, NO LEAK!!!!  I’ve worn mine for 10 years fishing in Alaska and California and on many trans ocean sails.  Still wearing them.  My mother is borrowing them for a river rafting trip this month.  About $80 last time I bought (I have two pair) —

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A foulie jacket should either have built-in flotation, or be light and flexible enough to be worn comfortabley with a pfd. This rules out most of the jackets on the market, imho. Ever try to swim in foulies and boots? Either buy an expensive float-coat (very warm, too) or get a light nylon shell (the kind made for white-water canoeing are perfect) and use it in conjuction with sweater or fleece jacket and a pfd, when called for.

I used a canoeing jacket for a few seasons. I don’t agree that it is the best choice for heavy weather sailing. It worked fine for an occational light spray, but it didn’t hold up for the constant pounding with water on rough days. I would quickly get all soaked. It was an enormous improvement when I bought a real foul weather jacket. My usual advice to new sailors is to spend money on the pants and boots, and wait on the jacket.

This makes sense. You’ll quickly wear out any light pants. At least the jacket doesn’t have to take all that abrasive abuse. I wear my pfd inside of a seriously oversized jacket. I have found that this gives me less problems with condensation than doing it the other way. It also reduces the risk of getting tangled in or caought somewhere, and keeps your pfd dry (= fewer wet things in the boat, wich is nice if you’re out for several days.) I don’t think the heavy foul weather gear makes me less mobile. I may feel less mobile after a few hours of constant hard work in a heavy weather race, but that’s because I’m tired. /m

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     I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" that I may want to look for?                                                         Thanks,                                                                 Doug — Tar is not a play thing..I will not steal school property..Spit balls are not free speach..I will not bribe principal Skinner..I will not Xerox(tm) my butt .I will not teach others to fly..I will not do that thing with my tongue..BART

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:      I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the : boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and : see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking : for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. : Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" : that I may want to look for? :                                                       Thanks, :                                                               Doug : — : Tar is not a play thing..I will not steal school property..Spit balls are not : free speach..I will not bribe principal Skinner..I will not Xerox(tm) my butt : .I will not teach others to fly..I will not do that thing with my tongue..BART — Is that "West" as in West Marine?  My wife and I both have their "Explorer" (? I think) foul weather gear and we are very happy with it.  It did quite well in Practical Sailor’s review of foulies, as well.   The ONLY down side of it that I’ve found is that it is a little heavy for warm weather sailing.  Since that’s not usually a problem here in the Pacific NW, I’m quite happy with it. Chas Douglass/the "Emma Christine" + When I was in school, I cheated on my metaphysics exam.              + + I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me.                + + Woody Allen                                                          +

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:      I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the : boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and : see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking : for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. : Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" : that I may want to look for? :                                                  Thanks, :                                                          Doug

Waterproof helps. Seriously, a big thing I cared about that many jackets didn’t address was adequate sealing about the neck. a $500 Henri Lloyd isn’t much good when spray hits you and runs inside the jacket repeatedly!!!! I got a pretty good deal on serious offshore gear – from Boat/US, actually. They sell other companies’ gear with their name on it – I have heard doubts about the quality, although mine has lasted very well. I hear Gore-Tex (Helly-Tech, whatever!) eventually leaks, but mine works okay for light spray. The PVC coating in my heavier gear, along with the sealed cuffs and neck, keep me surprisingly warm. It’s really too warm for active races. Alan Moore My opinions only.

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