Question:

I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave.  It’s in the fine print. Peter

____  You sure could have fooled me Pete.  LOL! — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Sorry to see ya go Jeff but I understand. Thanks for your help and opinions offered in the past. Tight lines. Natty Before you buy.

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave.  It’s in the fine print. Peter ____  You sure could have fooled me Pete.  LOL!

How would you know? You’ve never worked up the cajones to attend a conclave. ps: That lipstick on your exhaust pipe wasn’t from a woman.

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile. You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man. I wish I had thought of that!   ___  Good to have you around needling the junk yard dogs TBone.

The only junk yard dogs ’round here are those hanging out in your crazed mind.

Response:

ps: That lipstick on your exhaust pipe wasn’t from a woman.

And it probably included huge gobs of dried-up Skoal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Jeff said he’d take a break "for awhile". He’ll be back i’m sure.  In the meantime I’ve been reading lots of good fishing stuff on ROFF lately. Jeff, keep me posted when you’re visiting NM. bruce h PS:  Doc, Around here we spell it COJONES. Before you buy.

Response:

Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it?

No reason at all, Steve, other than the fact that they have a lot of friends here who’d like to hear from them from time to time. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you? Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it? –Steve

BINGO!!! Before you buy.

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile.

You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man. Your pal, — Halfordian Golfer It is impossible to catch and release a wild trout. A cash flow runs through it.

Response:

Hasn’t anyone told you that now you’ve claved, you can’t leave.  It’s in the fine print. Peter

Response:

So… time to take a break for awhile. You can take the man out of roff…but it is impossible to take roff out of the man.

I wish I had thought of that!   ___  Good to have you around needling the junk yard dogs TBone. — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/

Response:

Walt’s right Jeff ol’ boy, you live through a lot worse in the beginning! — Op         –Absence and death are the same–only that in death there is no suffering.         –Walter S. Landor

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3 ahhhhhh bullshit! if you bug out, after having the cojones to show up at spring as your accelerating face-first towards that ominous grey granite boulder, i wish you the time to think… "ahwwwwwww..sheeeeeeettttt, i’m wearin’ a richardsons!" <g tl, walt

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin

What? Did Jeff sign out of ROFF? I just can’t believe you guys. The last person I’d have expected to be thin skinned was JeffC, What a bunch of pussy sissy boys! Can’t stand to have certain combinations of characters displayed on computer sceens. Yuck! Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Come back and see us soon Jeff. Darin What? Did Jeff sign out of ROFF? Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you?

I second the sentiment. Willi

Response:

Jeff, that library downtown is full of books I’ll never read…… john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

Response:

Let’s just get a grip, OK? Jeff? Mike Conner? Vern? Warren? Deanbot? Where are you?

Maybe they *are* getting a grip. Why should they continue to tune into this newsgroup if it’s not satisfying their reasons for reading it? –Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I view newsgroups first as a source of volunteer information, and second as a source of chit chat and entertainment.  Some view it just the opposite, and that’s OK with me.  Flaming is part of the entertainment sometimes.  But lately I’ve had negative thoughts about people, personally, based on what they post here, and that has never happened to me before.  Too much bandwidth wasted trying to make other people seem stupid.  I don’t even have enough time right now for all the stuff I love in life, let alone something that’s kind of a bummer.  So… time to take a break for awhile. But… I thought it might be a good chance to lay out some good vibes and thanks.  I’ve learned a lot about things on topic and off.  Thanks to all the volunteer informers and educators!  Keep it up.  There are people listening and lurking even if you don’t know, and it’s appreciated.  I’ve also enjoyed hearing other wide-ranging *objective* points of view – again, on topic and off.  I *definitely* look forward to meeting the friends I made at the claves again sometime and fishing or just bullshitting.  Special thanks to Walt, Warren, and Dave for organizing the claves – I loved ‘em!  I hope it’s not too early to wish everyone happy holidays – hope you get your favorite fly fishing equipment for Xmas! obroff:  May the man who will help our sport the most win the US election (er.. or at least may the worst man lose.)  And if you can’t fish, may your winter reading and tying hold you over.  And may your next fish take you into your backing… or at least give you a few good vibes! Tight lines, JeffC1.474×10**3

ahhhhhh bullshit! if you bug out, after having the cojones to show up at spring accelerating face-first towards that ominous grey granite boulder, i wish you the time to think… "ahwwwwwww..sheeeeeeettttt, i’m wearin’ a richardsons!" <g tl, walt

Response:

Question:

Hi gang,   I’m fishing this area while on vacation next week. I’d be glad to hear any advice from people who know the area. I’m looking to catch trout, not planning to keep any, and hope to get some photos of some nice ones. Jerry

Response:

Check out the thread "Michigan Flyfishing Spots For Vacation" George Adams

Response:

Try http://www.troutbums.com/.

Response:

Question:

Hi, I maybe heading to the Lower Deschutes during the third week in May.  Does anyone know what I can expect as to the fishing that time of year ?  What hatches, river levels etc.,  What weight rod would be the best ?  Any recommendations to local advice/fly shops. Thanks in advance.

Response:

Hi, I maybe heading to the Lower Deschutes during the third week in May.  Does anyone know what I can expect as to the fishing that time of year ?  What hatches, river levels etc.,  What weight rod would be the best ?  Any recommendations to local advice/fly shops. Thanks in advance.

WIth snow levels this year, I think you can probably expect high water; snow pack is about double a normal year. A 9 foot, five weight rod with a floating line will work for most situations you’ll encounter on the Deschutes. Deep nymphing is the most consistently successful method on the lower river. The salmonfly hatch should be getting started, as well as the golden stoneflies. BIG, heavily weighted stonefly nymphs in black and gold. Black and golden stimulators for the adults. Caddis: Rhyacophilia, hydropsyche, Glossoma, Brachycentra: larvae, pupae, and adults. Mayflies: Baetis, Heptagenia, maybe some early PMDs. Midges. Local shops: The Deschutes Canyon fly shop in Maupin, The Fly Fishing Shop in Welches.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. [deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Reminds of something I saw on the Chilliwack River a few years back: there was a nice backwater full of coho on the other side of the river but the water was low enough to ford. I saw a guy waring rain pants duck taped to rubber boots fishing the backwater. I wrinkled my brow and wondered how well that worked. I was skeptical it could keep much water from finding its way into his boots. About an hour later he confirmed my skepticism by peeling off the tape and emptying a guart or more water from each boot. OTH I’ve heard tell that some winter steelheaders modify neoprene waders by cutting the worn boots off and gluing them to a pair of water proof snowmobiling boots with aquaseal or goop: the trick is to fit the neoprene leg over an empty coffee can to widen it then slip the can into the boot and pull the neoprene over the boot and apply copious amounts of glue. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

[deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set….

[deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Agree completely with Ralph H., Matarelli makes the best whip finisher – and there instructions enclosed. Its real advantage for us with rough hands.

Response:

Didn’t we have this thread about a year ago? Guys spaming each other on" to use or not to use" a whip finisher? Is this dream? Joel Axelrad

Response:

Thanks for the neat idea, Bob — I just made myself one of these and tried it out tonight. It worked great! Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. Thanks again! R.S. Heaton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard (remainder of cool idea snipped)

Response:

I have a Griffin and would not think of tying without it. They are cheap enough.  I suggest just buying one and trying it.  You’re not out much if you decide that it does not suit your style.

Response:

I prefer to whip finish by hand.  Try both the tools are not that expensive and see what you prefer.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Neat idea, I’ll give it a whirl. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

0] : … : Does anyone : here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? : … : Pierre I am not going to disagree with either camp on using or not using a tool here. I’ll just add something I have lately discovered that applies to either for small flies and fine thread. If you rub some beeswax (or I suppose parafin) on the part of the thread that’s going to be in the finish, the friction of drawing it up melts the wax and lubricates as it snaps into place, and then sets so you don’t need to use head cement. I find that I don’t break 8/0 thread at this step nearly as much when I do this, and I don’t end up with cement clogged eyes. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily.

I tried hackle guards but I don’t have enough hands to manage thread, whip finisher and hackle guard at the same time.  No talent, I guess. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie.

Great cheap solution, though mine were given to me when a fellow ff’er cleaned out his junk.  I wouldn’t want to pay some of those prices now. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

Pierre, I was taught to do a one hand whip finish many years ago.  I have tried to use a whip finish tool and never felt that I had the same control of the thread. I can place each wrap exactly where I want it with my hand and keep the thread taught. Never felt I had the same control with the whip finish tools I’ve tried. Of course, I never gave them a lot of use. I will say that with the technique I use it helps to have good vision (the only body equipment that still works as originally designed) but this is probably true for any fly head finishing.  Good luck. I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

– Steve Vaughn Kodak Park Health, Safety & Environmental Services Eastman Kodak Company – http://www.kodak.com

Response:

with my eyes I could whip without a toll… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

My half hitch tool has a dubbing pick on one end which I use to clean hook eyes and the other end has a half hitch tool which I use for compressing spun deer hair. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

(Peter Charles) says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pierre   The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

I am not a precise fly tier and have found that the more beat up a fly gets, the better the trout like it.  A whip finishing tool is just an additional step in the tying process and an additional tool on my workspace. The trout don’t seem to mind if I overlay a wrap or two when tying off the head. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice!

I’ve got a Griffin whip-finisher and consider it essential.  I *can* do a hand whip-finish but I find the tool helps me position the thread better which is very important on small dries with hackle near the eye.  I figured out how to use mine from the directions which came with it, and it only took a minute to get it right.  I suggest that you practice on a bare hook – that way you can figure out how everything is supposed to work without the pressure of having to get it right Or Else..!  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Response:

Pierre

  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Never use ‘em on standard hackled dry flies anymore, almost always use a half hitch tool these days. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there.

I recommend http://thesmokies.com/oldsmoky_outfitters/flytying/index.htm for an excellent illustrated description of how to use a whip finish tool, along with other helpful advice for beginners (like me). — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Pierre I use it on some flies, a half-hitch tool on others and just my fingers on some. It really depends on the size of the fly.  I find half-hitch tools better for small dries, whip finishers better for salmon, spey etc.  But that’s just my preference.  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Take the time to learn it but get a set of half-hitch tools too. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Pierre;         I can’t imagine finishing a fly without one. Get one, you will never look back. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Question:

In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

Since when does the success of a PhD depend on real-world relevance? JonCook. PS: As was pointed out, any complete population dynamics model would have     to take multiple-C+R into account if in fact it is not a linear relation.

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I’ve caught fish is locations like the San Juan that have clearly been caught many times and they tend to not fight very hard. Is it a learned behavior? Possibly we are inadvertently building a strain of fish the survive multiple catch and release because they don’t fight very hard, leaving more reserves for in-stream survival subsequent to release. I don’t think it would take too many generations for this to begin to be noticed, unless its already happening and we all don’t remember the hard fighting fish of yesteryears. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population? In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.

One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw.   Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

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Hmmm…had to take longer to revive???  The Missoulian (Missoula Montana) just ran an artical about the high water temps this summer (it’s very hot out here…94 degrees today) and the affects this has on fish recovery.  FW&P biologist would like you to not fish if the water temps. are above or close to 70 degrees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management. One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw. Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

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I have the good fortune to live within a few miles of a small tailwater stream in New England.  The upper 1/2 mile is fly fishing only, catch & release year round. The next 3/4 mile downstream is catch & release, artificials only 7/1 to 12/31, and any method, 3 fish limit 1/1 to 6/30. These regs have been in place for more than 10 years.  Water temp seldom exceeds 60 deg. The stream is heavily stocked, and has a small poulation of native brook trout as well.  Studies by fisheries and wildlife indicate that 75% of the fish caught in the lower section are released.  Multiple catches are a way of life for both fish and fishermen.  This is a small, clear stream and dead fish are easily spotted. Very few dead fish are observed. The total seen amounts to way less than 1% of the 6500 or so trout stocked each year.  I understand that this is strictly anecdotal data, but this stream does offer a unique opportunity to observe the dynamics of a C&R area. This observation is offered only as general info on C&R mortality, and not intended to restart the "moral/ethical" debate over C&R. Tight lines!! George

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Hmmmm!   This is an interesting bunch of statistics.  But I get the impression that they are not all that connected.  They are drawn from several sources (comparing apples and oranges?).   I don’t deny that a percentage of C&R’d fish perish, but the survival rates don’t come close to comparing.  Let’s say that only 70% of C&R’d fish survive — 0% of C&K’d fish survive!! So let’s leave this sort of thought process to the guys in the Ivory Towers.  It really doesn’t make that much difference to the man in the river except the accent the need for appropriate care in the releasing of fish.   There has been entirely too much ad hominem name-calling  between the the C&R and C&K factions.  I speak out in favor of killing those fish that will be eaten (I like trout) and releasing those that will not be eaten (I don’t like cleaning fish).  I do favor leaving the large, wild fish to breed, and eating only the small to medium size ones.  In stocked rivers with little or no breeding, I have much less qualms when I see a fisherman leaving with a stringer. I don’t like seeing, as I did on the coast where I grew up, are dozens and dozens of fish, many of which are inedible or unplatable. Neal G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /             |/   (         /|    –     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Seek personal peace at the end of a fly line.

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: I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?   In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?

I wasn’t really concerned about ‘a particular’ fish in my original post — or even a small sampling of fish — except in how the possible change in mortality as exhibited in the small sample when spread across a larger number of fish could be used to possibly model population dynamics in C&R streams.  Certainly the C&R mortality and the number of C&R cycles would not represent the full population dynamics model, but might become a part of a larger model.  This larger model could then be a useful tool for developing effective management practices for some fisheries (selective harvest, restricted seasons, limited take, controlled fishing pressure, etc) — and that is what would be of interest to fishermen. In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

What about a title like — "Mortality of (pick a species that grows large – S. trutta, for example) in (pick several exotic geographic location — New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, etc.) when exposed to multiple C&R cycles".  Now, find somebody (read sucker) to fund the research — sell it as at least a 15-20 year project.  Recruit several of your favorite fishing buddies as long-term ‘graduate’ or ‘undergraduate’ assistants and disappear on the mother of all fishing trips. :^) PS: I thought all PhD’s were slow and painful deaths — even for the survivors! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

–             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

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Question:

I don’t think I would have known or appreciated the difference between the $30.00 rod and my Sage. The next year I bought the Sage having the knowledge to appreciate the difference.

Me too- only the other way around. After having fished with the high-falootin LLs and RPls for a couple of years, a buddy of mine who mfgs IM6 kits gave me two of his 99 dollar wonder rods. Now I wonder why the hell I spent all that loot for the Sage sticks.   Just shows to go ya.

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If you can still find one, a Fenwick Eagle or one of Cabela’s lessor priced rods might be a good by to start with.  Or be a MAN and get an Eagle Claw 4 piece fiberglass Spin/Fly rod for 7 wt. line.  This thing weighs in the pounds, not ounces, and if you use one all day your arm will simply fall off!  This rod will make you appreciate any dedicated graphite fly rod.  I have found that as I acquired better technique, I could truly tell the difference in rods.  As in all hobbies, you will find among fly fishers a certain group of "reverse" snobs who seem to feel that the only way to be a true disciple is to disdain anything top quality as being "too expensive" and "not worth it" and "a Dildofly Deluxe form K-Marts is just as good as a Thomas & Thomas" or "Orvis makes junk". etc.  They use crap and then belittle everything else in order to justify their choice.  I have all kinds of rods and the best feeling and casting rods are also the most expensive, a Sage SP 9′ 6 wt and a R.L. Winston LT 9′ 5 wt.  My other stuff is good but these are the cream of the crop.  Save your money and buy what you want. Don’t let some yo-yo tell you what a dumbass you are for buying quality.  I’m sure this will infuriate some folks but as my ol’ daddy once said, "Po’ folks have Po’ ways." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod. Jason, I would suggest that you try a Cortland setup, or one of the starter kits from Cabela’s. I’ve seen both for less than $100.00 and I’ve used them – they work fine. I’ve been flamed regularly for suggesting inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) flyfishing gear, but I really believe it’ll work well for you. Get an inexpensve setup and practice, practice, practice. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties, 1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights. 1997 Rokon Trail Breaker 1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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try HI_TECh tackle at 414/268-9665, very favorably review in FR&R, March 1996, for (can you guess?) 40.00 to 54.99, I have 3 from 4 to 6 wt.  great back up or beginners rods.  Made in Korea

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So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod. Thanks in advance, Jason Schwartz

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So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod.

Jason, I would suggest that you try a Cortland setup, or one of the starter kits from Cabela’s. I’ve seen both for less than $100.00 and I’ve used them – they work fine. I’ve been flamed regularly for suggesting inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) flyfishing gear, but I really believe it’ll work well for you. Get an inexpensve setup and practice, practice, practice. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties,   1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights.       1997 Rokon Trail Breaker                       1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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I’ll second that. I started out with a $30.00 rod. It worked just fine for my first year of fly fishing. When I first started out, I don’t think I would have known or appreciated the difference between the $30.00 rod and my Sage. The next year I bought the Sage having the knowledge to appreciate the difference.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So did anyone have any suggestions for good rods in this price range. I recently saw an article in a magazine calling a pflueger rod a best buy but I can’t remember the model name of the rod. Jason, I would suggest that you try a Cortland setup, or one of the starter kits from Cabela’s. I’ve seen both for less than $100.00 and I’ve used them – they work fine. I’ve been flamed regularly for suggesting inexpensive (as opposed to cheap) flyfishing gear, but I really believe it’ll work well for you. Get an inexpensve setup and practice, practice, practice. Frank Longtine

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Question:

Fly of the Month    I am looking for a source that will sell all the materials that are needed to tie a single patern. IE if I want to tie a Adams or Dk Hendrickson it would be nice to go to one souce and order a patern and everything would be there. Assortment of hooks, thread, hackle, dubbing ect. Please respond by E-Mail to

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Fly of the Month    I am looking for a source that will sell all the materials that are needed to tie a single patern. IE if I want to tie a Adams or Dk Hendrickson it would be nice to go to one souce and order a patern and everything would be there. Assortment of hooks, thread, hackle, dubbing ect. Please respond by E-Mail to

Hi Joe, Email your USPS and I’ll send a catalog.  I stock many items not in the catalog like hooks, dubbing, many different feathers, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog)

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Question:

For that area, I would say that your 6 wt outfit will work just fine with the standard attractor patterns.  For some amazing action, go down the Skagit (west on WA 20- North Cascades Highway) past all the dams and shoot for the coho runs.  Steelhead State Park, off of WA 20, provides a good place to park and is right on the bank.  The Skagit has been recently designated a Wild and Scenic River, and it truly is.  With the steelhead, and the salmon, and the bald eagles looming on the trees over the banks, you ought to have a wonderful experience, provided that you’ve no leaks in your waders; the entire Skagit watershed from Ross and Diablo down to the sound is cold.   I just recently moved from Washington and have fished that area for years.  I hope you enjoy your trip.  Good fishing! BC

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For that area, I would say that your 6 wt outfit will work just fine with the standard attractor patterns.  For some amazing action, go down the Skagit (west on WA 20- North Cascades Highway) past all the dams and shoot for the coho runs.  Steelhead State Park, off of WA 20, provides a good place to park and is right on the bank.  The Skagit has

There are several places from which one migh fly fish- some off the highway.  Some off, eg., Sauk Store Road.  Call Skagit Anglers (360) 336-3232 in Mount Vernon or Priced Less Sporting Goods (360) 855-0895 in Sedro-Woolley for current regulation, access info.

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Greetings all:         I am taking a trip into the Pacific Northwest for business, and I will be taking a couple of days to hike in the region.  I will be at the Colonial Creek campground in North Cascades for two days, next to Diablo, and there is a lake supposedly full of trout.  Anyone have any suggestions for flies and rigging that works well there?  Also, I am currently using an 8.5 ft, 6wt rod and line combo.  Will this work well, or should I try to rent gear in Seattle that would be better suited?  Any suggestions about where to rent would also be helpful, since I may just go that route instead of risking my rod in an airplane.     Many thanks. Dan Johnson

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Question:

Quit bothering other posters! LIVE & LET LIVE CONEHEAD!

Now, you really fit the wierdo category. Will has been a good source of information, with his extensive RVing experience. What are your experiences ???? Anthony & Loretta                    "Don’t regret getting older Retired in Largo, Florida             many are denied the privilege"

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Quit bothering other posters! LIVE & LET LIVE CONEHEAD!

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: Quit bothering other posters! : LIVE & LET LIVE CONEHEAD!  I have to agree with this also. He also gave me some crap via  E-mail.  Ike Grill  Cadott,WI

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I don’t know.  Will is certainly opinionated, but at least he will take a stand.  I don’t always agree with him, he sort of flamed me once for answering someone’s question on a subject not related to rving, but everything must be taken in context.  On the flyfishing newsgroup, we had an individual by the name of Tim Walker who said such rediculous things that would Will seem tame.  One day he got tired of being flamed and just disappeared.  Again, I usually didn’t agree with him, but he sure knew how to start and maintain a discussion. Will, don’t let em get you down. Jim Browder

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Quit bothering other posters! LIVE & LET LIVE CONEHEAD! Now, you really fit the wierdo category. Will has been a good source of information, with his extensive RVing experience. What are your experiences ???? Anthony & Loretta                    "Don’t regret getting older Retired in Largo, Florida             many are denied the privilege"

I second that and Amen. If you have something to contribute, do so! Otherwise, BUTT OUT and get a life Toni!! Dan

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Question:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I and several others noticed there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could spend on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagellation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)? Few things get my burner going like the guardian of holy secrets of fly   fishing. When I graduated to a Fenwick Eagle rod, Berkly reel and a pair of Redball waders, I braved the Yellowstone.  I didn’t have a clue.  Talk about being intimidated.  Time was precious and I needed to know what and how to fish it.  So I went up to a guy and asked.  He eyeballed me up and down, gave me that "oooooh, what a big spender you are" look, and went back to tying on his fly without a word." Maybe that is the problem, you think there are "holy secrets of flyfishing", a magic grail that is a substitute for personal observation and experience. Maybe the gentleman on the Yellowstone was giving you his "oooooh no, another dude who thinks his time is too precious to do his homework and acquire the necessary skills before coming here" look.

Well, I guess we got each other pegged.  I never went and got my flyfishing Phd.  Hope I never do.

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Charlie,     Do have kids… in their 20s now and they give others space on the stream… Learned fishing manners by age 10 or so.                 Prof. 8x  

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   We all better polish our social skills if we are going to keep, pursuing this wonderful pass time.  I can remember fishing Grand Lake Stream, Slate Run and even the Madison when I was the only person in sight, those days are GONE. I miss them but I’m learning to adapt by:  fishing mostly during the week, fishing water that is difficult to wade and (difficult to boat sometimes) from a specialized water craft, discovering places that have solitude and good fly fishing for different fish (smallmouth bass being my favorite other fish, ounce for ounce fights as good as any trout I’ve ever met.)    And although I’m a loner in many ways I’ve enjoyed interacting with other fisherman as I’ve grown up.  In fact last week and weekend I was on the Halston in Tenn. and it was fairly busy (sulfurs in mid day and all that) and I was impressed with the courtesy and friendship displayed by the east Tenn. folks (Like why don’t you try that 20" brown he’s got me stumped !!)   You had to duck flying hardware on the weekend but the local fly fisherman were very nice. Hats off to them.                                           regards leo

Response:

: Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a : modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of : fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in : letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that : a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream : asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   Well, there you go.  Wanna talk sociology?  Most, not all, good streams are located in rural areas.  In rural areas, it is considered rude to *not* acknowledge the presence of another.  I know this is not true in the urban environment, but it is proper behavior on most streams.  (Unless there are bank to bank fisherfolk, and if that is the case, why are you there?) Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

For every jerk out there who ignores you there are a 100 who are willing to share what they know. Ignore the jerks and keep looking. Bill A.

Response:

: asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   : that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and : inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with :                   :                                     Prof. 8x ‘ Hmmm, no kids, eh, Prof? :^) Charley

Response:

Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the space of others verbally if not physically.   Suggest that a number of you try bowling or perhaps joining a tractor pull fan club as those activities seem more in keeping with your ideas of appropriate streamside conduct.  Comradeship/fellowship involves more that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with the fish when I am in the stream less important that whatever it is you want to interrupt me with?  Do you exhibit the same rudeness to your associates or strangers in the office or at a cocktail party?                                       Prof. 8x

Response:

Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick

Hi, Rick. John Propp?  Nice guy.  I met him at Brown’s a year or two ago.  He said he built rods, but I had no idea he had a shop.  How’d I miss that?  Where is it at? Thanks, -Dick

Response:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I, and judging my most of the other responses, several others notice there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could of spent on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagelation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)?

Response:

[bandwidthectomy] : Now to take on your detractor: : I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living.  They : are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and : socially daunting to most.  I’ll bet they only bought the outlandishly : over priced flies to force you into a few seconds of hopeful conversation. Well put.  I can’t agree with Mike on this one, although it marks a first.  Guiding, like ffishing, is a career (or hobby) that should be built over years.  The good guide is always guiding and eventually he or she will be paid well for it.  And besides, you don’t just hang a sign up and declare yourself a guide worth hiring.  A bit like consulting…I had to give away a lot of free advice before anyone thought it worth paying for.  Same with teaching.  Should I simply ignore the poor students and focus on the ones I figure will succeed?  Many do, but I think not.  And for what it is worth, I think this is a good discussion.  I don’t want to wallow in sexist BS here, but I love a good sports shop.  Hang out and talk fishing with the guys.  Why does it matter what car one drives (to the shop, that is…I still say it is a goofball that drives a $30K car down a dusty, broken road and parks next to a stream.) : Yakima or the Silver Bow in Spokane.   Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

Response:

I have been looking for a good dependable fly-shop; however, I   have been warned against Kaufmans, as they were described as   being too uptight and impersonal. Not everybody. Talk to Rod. Steer clear of john hazen. he’s a wealth of information, but only willing to talk to big spenders or people who impress him that they know what they’re doing already. (I’ve fooled him a Sean Williams Student, Teacher, Angler Portland, Ore., USA

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Response:

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  

You’re right. Apologies to john hazen You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".

Well, yes and no. I agree that "big spenders" is perjoritive, but I can think of several situations when a buyer will be laying out big bucks on a new system, or people going on one of the travel packages will be in the store. Often, this is someone new to fishing, who wants (deserves?) special attention to accompany the large purchase. At those times, I can forget about receiving any service. And maybe rightly so. However, although my criticisms might have been unfair or harsh, they are not far from the truth.  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Now its your turn to be a bit more charitable.  My statements were intended for a new angler who needs advice from professionals like those at Kaufmann’s. I think unfair to call their shop staff snobbish, because I don’t think it is, even john hazel.  On the other hand, I have seen people get the short end of the stick while in there. John and the others aren’t there by accident