Question:

You might try http://www.paflyfish.easetech.com/ There is a listing of fly shops (though I’m sure not complete) and a bullitin board wherre you can post your questions. Pretty active. It seems to be THE place to go to find out about Pa trout matters.

I tried that one out. The nearest fly shops were down in Williamsport. I was kinda hoping to find one right in Canton, preferably staffed by a cute young lady with a soft spot for engineers on quests. Hope springs eternal and all that… My work firewall won’t let me into the forum section, so I haven’t posted questions yet. Barring any particular solutions, I can just use general solutions: Be polite, bring five sizes of Adams and tie on 7x. You picked (or had fantastic dumb luck) a great area to fish and nearly the perfect time of year to go.

One of my friends just bought a new digital camera so I’ll post pictures of the scenery. I was in Bucks County last weekend and the trees were just starting to turn. I think by the time I get to Bradford County they’ll be mostly done, but the state of the leaves is really just a part of the whole experience. Brookies in the fall? You will be dazzled.

I hope so. It has the ingredients to become maudlin and possibly even mawkish. If the fish are even a tenth as beautiful as I remember (assuming I catch one), I might just begin to cry from the sheer emotional power of touching my inner child. At worst, I’ll start watching Lifetime or Oxygen… Kiyu

Thanks for the suggestion. Steve "I can see the mountains, I can see the sky, and it’s all too pretty for a man to want to die." -Johnny Cash, "25 Minutes to Go"

Response:

"You never even called me by my name"… Steve Goodman (City of new orleans) wrote it and sent it to David Allan Coe telling him it was the perfect country/western song, Coe replied saying it wasn’t because it didn’t mention pick up trucks, being drunk, trains, Momma, Prison or dying. Goodman wrote an additional verse sent it back and Coe recorded it. That verse went like this… "I was drunk, the day my Mom, got outta prison, and I went to pick her up in the rain, but before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by a damned old train…." Great sing along swing song I used to do at every gig, and if we forgot to include it the requests ensured we did. A good song, but just as good a laugh. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Frank Reid" No one has written a country western song about it, I could, but probably wont….. Clark To quote an intro off a Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young album, "Here’s a song guaranteed to bring you right down.  Its called, "Don’t let it bring you down."" Who was it that said the perfect country western song’s gotta have "trucks, trains, mothers" and a few other things? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

"Brian D. Nelson" Wasn’t that Merle?? Nope, David Allan Coe sang it, Steve Goodman wrote it. Clark

Response:

"I was drunk, the day my Mom, got outta prison, and I went to pick her up in the rain, but before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by a damned old train…."

Clark, I know you will remember the bit by Billy Connolly (or as he says, Big Bill Connolly, the man who put the c**t in Country Music). He was the big scottish guy in "Head of the Class" for the US readers. The bit deconstructs the genre in a humorous yet accurate way, talking about the tragedy, lost love, alcohol that form the common or garden country song. He tops the bit off with this little number: http://www.btinternet.com/~sarsen/billy/bc-candw.html Note the part that says "Country and Western Sounds" went like: Yo de lay eeeee .. lay eeee .. lay eeeee Wooo Wooo You know what I mean Cheers, — Gary M (remove ‘x’s from email address)

Response:

When I was a kid and I lived on the Western slopes of the Rockies, my father and I went fishing for brookies in small alpine creeks. We used spinning gear and worms and enjoyed the summer sunshine. My father was a very busy man and these trips were the highlight of our time in Colorado. We got up before light and dressed heavily because even in July the overnight temperatures would drop to near freezing. There was a perfunctory attempt at packing lunch, usually a block of cheese, leftover steak, two sodas, a sixpack and the obligatory thermos of coffee. Sometimes it was just the coffee and the sixpack. We drove out to Steamboat Springs, stopped at the same gas station for worms and headed up towards Hahn’s Peak. At first we went for the little brookies in the streams that flowed into Steamboat Lake. Later, Dad got a little twelve-foot aluminum boat and we trolled Steamboat Lake for rainbows, and then after we moved, bass in small lakes. No matter where I go or how I fish, I remember how perfect those little brookies were. The biggest we ever caught was eight inches and six was the norm. They all came from those sun-soaked little creeks where the water was so cold it hurt your feet and all the while, Hahn’s Peak looked down in all its purple benevolence. I’m older, and my third-grade enthusiasm is tempered with a little knowledge and a little skill. I know that those little brookies were invaders; they probably should have been cutthroats. It doesn’t change how beautiful they were or how great it was to be ten years old and fishing with Dad. In two weeks, I going with my friends to a cabin on the border between Bradford and Tioga Counties. According to the Pennsylvania Fishing and Boating Commission, there is a Class A Wild Trout Stream right in the little town of Canton, with a population of native brookies, wild and sustaining. Rathbone Creek, it is called. This will be my first chance at wild brookies, and more importantly, my first chance at natives: fish that have lived in that area since the glaciers retreated twelve thousand years ago. I’ve left the worms and the spinning rods behind (for the most part), and since I’ve taken up fly fishing I’ve considered a native brookie on a dry fly to be very meaningful and a fishing milestone. I think it will be almost a exciting as hooking my first steelhead (though not as dramatic). I’d like some help in this quest: Is there a fly shop in the vicinity of Canton? Is there public access to this Rathbone Creek? Is Rathbone the right idea? We’re not hooligans and we won’t trash anybody’s favorite spots. Thanks, Steve

Response:

… since I’ve taken up fly fishing I’ve considered a native brookie on a dry fly to be very meaningful and a fishing milestone. …

You’re a man after my own heart. I can’t help you with your Pennsylvania quest but you would be right at home in North Carolina. Uncle Waldo at ezflyfish could set you right up. Good luck. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… since I’ve taken up fly fishing I’ve considered a native brookie on a dry fly to be very meaningful and a fishing milestone. … You’re a man after my own heart. I can’t help you with your Pennsylvania quest but you would be right at home in North Carolina. Uncle Waldo at ezflyfish could set you right up. Good luck.

I’ll second all of that and add that if you’re ever in Wisconsin or upper Michigan we can show you LOTS of native brookies. Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … since I’ve taken up fly fishing I’ve considered a native brookie on a dry fly to be very meaningful and a fishing milestone. … You’re a man after my own heart. I can’t help you with your Pennsylvania quest but you would be right at home in North Carolina. Uncle Waldo at ezflyfish could set you right up. Good luck. I’ll second all of that and add that if you’re ever in Wisconsin or upper Michigan we can show you LOTS of native brookies. Wolfgang

    gotta go there and do that.  it wouldn’t be maudlin, would it? yfitons wayno

Response:

I’ll second all of that and add that if you’re ever in Wisconsin or upper Michigan we can show you LOTS of native brookies. Wolfgang    gotta go there and do that.  it wouldn’t be maudlin, would it? yfitons wayno

just don’t trip over the meniscus Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … since I’ve taken up fly fishing I’ve considered a native brookie on a dry fly to be very meaningful and a fishing milestone. … You’re a man after my own heart. I can’t help you with your Pennsylvania quest but you would be right at home in North Carolina. Uncle Waldo at ezflyfish could set you right up. Good luck. I’ll second all of that and add that if you’re ever in Wisconsin or upper Michigan we can show you LOTS of native brookies. Wolfgang     gotta go there and do that.  it wouldn’t be maudlin, would it? yfitons wayno

Nope…….um……not on a school day anyway.  Weekends…..well, you know.   Wolfgang bring cheese!

Response:

You might try http://www.paflyfish.easetech.com/ There is a listing of fly shops (though I’m sure not complete) and a bullitin board wherre you can post your questions. Pretty active. It seems to be THE place to go to find out about Pa trout matters. You picked (or had fantastic dumb luck) a great area to fish and nearly the perfect time of year to go. Brookies in the fall? You will be dazzled. Kiyu

Response:

    gotta go there and do that.  it wouldn’t be maudlin, would it? yfitons wayno

No one has written a country western song about it, nor has anyone reported their rod missing.  I would give it a 0.2 on the maudlin potentiometer. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

"Frank Reid" No one has written a country western song about it, I could, but probably wont….. Clark

Response:

"Frank Reid" No one has written a country western song about it, I could, but probably wont….. Clark

To quote an intro off a Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young album, "Here’s a song guaranteed to bring you right down.  Its called, "Don’t let it bring you down."" Who was it that said the perfect country western song’s gotta have "trucks, trains, mothers" and a few other things? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Who was it that said the perfect country western song’s gotta have "trucks, trains, mothers" and a few other things?

David Allan Coe "…and he told me it was the perfect country and western song I wrote him back a letter and told him it was NOT the perfect country and western song because he hadn’t said anything about Momma, or trains, or trucks, or prison, or gettin’ drunk…" — Charlie…

Response:

Who was it that said the perfect country western song’s gotta have "trucks, trains, mothers" and a few other things?

Wasn’t that Merle?? — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

"…and he told me it was the perfect country and western song I wrote him back a letter and told him it was NOT the perfect country and western song because he hadn’t said anything about Momma, or trains, or trucks, or prison, or gettin’ drunk…"

"I was drunk the day my ma got out of prison…" Joe F.

Response:

<Snipped "I was drunk the day my ma got out of prison…" Joe F.

Thanks, by the way, this is cool.  Joe’s comment on Charlie’s post arrived on my server first.  Still can’t see Charlie’s post. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

"I was drunk the day my ma got out of prison…" Joe F.

Since I can’t see Charlie’s post, who was it? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

"I was drunk the day my ma got out of prison…" Joe F. Since I can’t see Charlie’s post, who was it?

David Allan Coe. — Charlie…

Response:

"Frank Reid" No one has written a country western song about it, I could, but probably wont….. Clark To quote an intro off a Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young album, "Here’s a song guaranteed to bring you right down.  Its called, "Don’t let it bring you down.""

And then he adds, "It starts out kinda slow and then fizzles out altogether." Russell Some of these threads start out slow. It’s getting them to fizzle out that’s hard.

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the info!  Actually, I’ve been able to find a 2001 model, for about $500 less w/ warranty.  It’s hard to judge on the upgrades, since they do vary from boat to boat.  The boat I’m looking at indicates it has all the goodies… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There’s a 2000 ClackaCraft w/ all the goodies for sale parked (this weekend) by the Agate Pass bridge off Bainbridge… asking $5100, says it was $6700 new. Looks like I’m going to get a used drift boat this spring!  The fishing gods apparently have taken kindly to me for one reason or another.  I have accumulated a ton of information on a number of different boats and have talked to a number of people first hand on which boat is the best. Just like a fly rod, each person has their own opinion.  I have all but decided upon a glass boat and have pretty much decided upon either a Hyde, ClackaCraft, Ro, or perhaps a Nord West boat. Anyone care to share any other comments?  I wonder if the new boat would work on the Henry’s Fork?  Hmmmm….

– remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

There’s a 2000 ClackaCraft w/ all the goodies for sale parked (this weekend) by the Agate Pass bridge off Bainbridge… asking $5100, says it was $6700 new. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looks like I’m going to get a used drift boat this spring!  The fishing gods apparently have taken kindly to me for one reason or another.  I have accumulated a ton of information on a number of different boats and have talked to a number of people first hand on which boat is the best. Just like a fly rod, each person has their own opinion.  I have all but decided upon a glass boat and have pretty much decided upon either a Hyde, ClackaCraft, Ro, or perhaps a Nord West boat. Anyone care to share any other comments?  I wonder if the new boat would work on the Henry’s Fork?  Hmmmm….

Response:

Looks like I’m going to get a used drift boat this spring!  The fishing gods apparently have taken kindly to me for one reason or another.  I have accumulated a ton of information on a number of different boats and have talked to a number of people first hand on which boat is the best.   Just like a fly rod, each person has their own opinion.  I have all but decided upon a glass boat and have pretty much decided upon either a Hyde, ClackaCraft, Ro, or perhaps a Nord West boat.   Anyone care to share any other comments?  I wonder if the new boat would work on the Henry’s Fork?  Hmmmm…. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.   well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

O-O-OH…I thought he got you and wayno confused and then misspelled "vice"….well, I guess that’s what I get for taking as confusion what could be easier explained by simple stupidity… TC, R

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

…and don’t forget the "copywrite 2001."  You wouldn’t want a bunch of ambulance chasin’ copyright lawyers hounding you into the afterlife. Kevin

Response:

Jeffie writes: just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

Well, hell……  I thought your headstone should read: "It weren’t the fried eggs that done killed me!"

Response:

no…but if you’d seen me runnin out of santeetlah creek lookin suitable-for-wipin tree leaves whilst tryin to get disentangled from vest, waders, clothing and all the time havin to maintain tight sphincter control…well, it sure did look and feel like a death dance…and, true, it tweren’t my fried eggs, twas that bvd laplac mornin cookin what nearly done me in. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeffie writes: just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… Well, hell……  I thought your headstone should read: "It weren’t the fried eggs that done killed me!"

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.

Jeff, are you leading a double life? Op

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. Jeff, are you leading a double life? Op

You must stop these jealousy tandrums Opie boy.  You sexuality will soon reveal itself. George Gehrke "Dr. of Confusion"

Response:

you guys are slayin’ me…. thankee! –waldo <bseg’s – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Jeff:  I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

gawdam stan…that’s cold. have you no pity? …only if you include mike’s verse as well… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Jeff:  I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… jeff

OK. purely out of pity! Jeff tried and tried, before he died, to tie up lots of lovely flies, He got his wish, caught lots of fish, and now happy here he lies. TL MC

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author…

He’s probably thinking of the ones you gave him when the two of you were fly fishing the Pyrenees after you ran the bulls that time. — Charlie…

Response:

grin-ing out loud funny…. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He’s probably thinking of the ones you gave him when the two of you were fly fishing the Pyrenees after you ran the bulls that time. — Charlie…

Response:

OK. purely out of pity! Jeff tried and tried, before he died, to tie up lots of lovely flies, He got his wish, caught lots of fish, and now happy here he lies.

…perhaps i’ll have two headstones then.  thanks mike. jeff (master of the mutant fly tie)

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.

well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Jeff:  I’m going to keep that quote to post under the picture of the fly you submitted to the 2002 fly swap, OK? –Stan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Oh dear, the kiss of death, and you were doing so well! TL MC

Response:

just hope i can get those words impressed on my headstone before i pass… i will of course give proper attribution to the author… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph. well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one) Oh dear, the kiss of death, and you were doing so well! TL MC

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek

don’t discount terrestrials on silver creek…also look for ties the trout are less likely to see all the time…. Eugene K.

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Would you be willing to send me your contact for your tier(s) in banglerdesh? — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Trade him for a war bonnet as they are great for at least a hundred dozen flies. Joe, you ask a difficult question.  About anything you use out east will work in the west.  It often is a good idea to save a little cash and buy flies that are hatching during the time you’re in the area.  All you need is to buy one for a pattern and spend evenings tying up a few of these and a few of those.  Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.  Are you any relation to the Chief of that name? : ) George Gehrke Western Hatches R Us

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek don’t discount terrestrials on silver creek…also look for ties the trout are less likely to see all the time…. Eugene K.

Good suggestion Gene.  You remind me of the time a size 12 Gray Wulff was torn to bits on the Henry’s Fork when everything else that was coming off wasn’t any bigger than a size 18.  Moral:  You never know what will work until you try it.

Response:

i happen to have a few artist proofs of miller’s mutant… how much lucent you got left?  i’ll also consider some of that enron stuff…been hearin a lot about it lately… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Response:

Jeff Miller is an excellent man at the vise and I personally know his fly tying signature as being top drawer.  You can’t do much better Joseph.  

well, there it is fellers.  for those still needing proof… anybody got a granite chisel i can borrow? jeff miller (the other one)

Response:

—

So rw what flies will catch a big brown  at the farm? They were sitting in the weeds around me but  this old southern boy   came closer to stepping on them than catching them. IJ

Response:

— So rw what flies will catch a big brown  at the farm? They were sitting in the weeds around me but  this old southern boy   came closer to stepping on them than catching them. IJ

You might try a big bunny leech. Or get out at night with a deer hair mouse, or even a real honest-to-God mouse on certain sections where it’s permitted. There’s a young lady I’ve heard about, who lives right on Silver Creek, who tickles those big browns under the cut banks. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Getting ready to make my annual wholesale order of flies from banglerdesh and would like to get a few suggestions  from the western experts  as I hope to make a return trip to Idaho late this summer.  Will hit Henry"s area, Silver creek and Kelly creek.   Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  Please mention size and color. of flies you think I should purchase.   Indian Joe I would purchase my flies from Jeff Miller [ renowned N.C.tier]     but he will not trade for Lucent sock [at my purchased price]

Response:

Last and only time I fished on Silver creek the trico hatch was so dense I could not see or breathe  but caught a couple of trout with my royal wuff  while my mentor had  size22,24,and 26 trico in wounded shape, in crippled shape and with wings and he caught zilch.  

You can use a bare hook in those unbelievable Silver Creek trico hatches, as long as you drift it downstream right into their Hoovering mouths. It may be unethical, but it works. Those hatches are so dense that you have to hose down your waders after fishing. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

Al, I’ve been doing this for the last 3 years.  I use a pair of needle-nose pliers and just crimp the barb down.  In some cases, it actually cracks off.  I do it when I open the lure package and put the lure in my tackle box.  I’ve lost a couple of fish I might otherwise have landed but I fish mostly catch-and-release so it’s not a big deal. The only time I don’t do this is with live bait so the bait will stay on the hook.  Rumor has it that is why the barb was invented in the first place. Tom Kadlec I was reading that you can flatten the barb down (with forceps) on the waterside to achieve the same effect as a barbless hook. I’m trying to picture this and what they mean by waterside. The book says that if you maintain pressure on the fish you do not need the barb. It is easier to remove from the fish. Al

Tom Kadlec

Response:

<snipped The book says that if you maintain pressure on the fish you do not need the barb. It is easier to remove from the fish. Al

Easier said than done.  :) I started de-barbing at the end of last season… just squash it down so it can’t catch on anything, I use pliers.  Back to the point… I’ve lost more fish than usual, but I get lazy about keeping the pressure on… gonna have to work on that now, I guess.  :) — – goat (Mark S’) www.goatlike.com – art & design

Response:

Other point that are interesting is that if you use over size trebles you may cause unnecessary damage to to the fish, especially loose hooks outside the fish’s mouth, because they can fly around and catch the fish’s eye. You might say why care? I care because there is some opposition to fishing.  I have a close relative that at an early age was eager to fish but some how developed an adversion to fishing. It is important to have in your arsenal this knowledge to support this sport. I’m looking for a one step tool that can remove a hook or if i so choose cut the barb off. Ideally it would be like predator pliers with a cutting edge on it. Al

Response:

I was reading that you can flatten the barb down (with forceps) on the waterside to achieve the same effect as a barbless hook. I’m trying to picture this and what they mean by waterside. The book says that if you maintain pressure on the fish you do not need the barb. It is easier to remove from the fish. Al

Response:

Jajwuth writes I was reading that you can flatten the barb down (with forceps) on the waterside to achieve the same effect as a barbless hook. I’m trying to picture this and what they mean by waterside

Just crimp the barb down with pliers or whatever so the barb’s point is against the hook’s bend. I assume by "waterside" they mean you can do it while you’re out fishing, no advance work needed. . It is easier to remove from the fish. Easier to remove from the fisherman too.

Response:

Question:

i like fester’s sense of humor and great bulkwark against the adam and steve crowd

I saw the Titrantic movie but thought it was too long.

what about tantric religion? oh and here are some websites on sex and religion:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=sex+and+religion&d=y&za=and&h=c&… 0 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

Response:

and the former baptist looking into episcopal church says, "gentleman PLEASE! more decorum!" on sodomy: yes quigle, you can "be episcopal and be gay" guess what? over 30 christian denominations have active gay movements in them..even the muslim religion now has one. Peter Zimmerman

Fester thinks you should go back to the bath house and quit trying to pollute religion with your gross sexual perversions. If you want to be religious fine, if you want to be a pervert fine. But don’t try to pervert religion with your gross sexual perversion.

Response:

I saw the Titrantic movie but thought it was too long.

what about tantric religion? oh and here are some websites on sex and religion:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=sex+and+religion&d=y&za=and&h=c&… 0 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

Response:

what about tantric religion? oh and here are some websites on sex and religion: http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=sex+and+religion&d=y&za=and&h=c&… Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

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Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up?   I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker.

My thoughts exactly.  The Episcopal Church I know is one where God is worshipped, and love of God and neighbor are, again and again, brought to our attention as the two great commandments.   And it’s a place where people of widely diverse understandings get together and are willing to discuss the hard questions in an atmosphere of mutual respect and the love of Christ.  It is a place where there is an almost quixotic insistence that ALL Christians share a common faith.  And a place where, once the discussion ends, we all wish each other peace, and kneel (or stand) at a common table and partake of Christ. This place seems to be endless sniping and name-calling.  Absolutely the opposite of what this church is. No wonder we confess our sins three times a day.

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Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian

Nope, I heard it here, we can be totally depraved sodomites, and as long as we "pray the same" we’re all Episcopalians!!!! Fester, A Real Episcopalian

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Fester Quigle, says… Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian Nope, I heard it here, we can be totally depraved sodomites, and as long as we "pray the same" we’re all Episcopalians!!!! Fester, A Real Episcopalian

Go to Dallas!

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Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up? I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian

Having contributed to at least one of the threads that you find offensive, I would like to say that other Episcopalians, whether they are Evangelicals (which I am NOT) or conservative traditionalists (which I AM) have as much right to discuss topics of interest to them within this newsgroup as you do to make the outlandish assertion that only you and people who think as you do should set the agenda in each and every thread.  What an ego!!!  I’ll keep you in mind at evening prayer services today. Regards

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up? I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian Having contributed to at least one of the threads that you find offensive, I would like to say that other Episcopalians, whether they are Evangelicals (which I am NOT) or conservative traditionalists (which I AM) have as much right to discuss topics of interest to them within this newsgroup as you do to make the outlandish assertion that only you and people who think as you do should set the agenda in each and every thread.  What an ego!!!  I’ll keep you in mind at evening prayer services today. Regards

Bruce, dahling, will you be passing this poisonous prayer at the Church of the Heavenlty Taste, where there is wine list at communion? Be sure to try the traditional St. James Stanton Port with the Stilton flavored hosts. You’ll want to go back for seconds! See you there, SON O GOD

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up? I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian Having contributed to at least one of the threads that you find offensive, I would like to say that other Episcopalians, whether they are Evangelicals (which I am NOT) or conservative traditionalists (which I AM) have as much right to discuss topics of interest to them within this newsgroup as you do to make the outlandish assertion that only you and people who think as you do should set the agenda in each and every thread.  What an ego!!!  I’ll keep you in mind at evening prayer services today. Regards Bruce, dahling, will you be passing this poisonous prayer at the Church of the Heavenlty Taste, where there is wine list at communion? Be sure to try the traditional St. James Stanton Port with the Stilton flavored hosts. You’ll want to go back for seconds! See you there, SON O GOD

Little Willy Wantland sez….  "Be sure to ask for the genuine Eau Claire, Wisconsin Stilton   flavored hosts. Do not accept any substitutes!"

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Bruce, dahling, will you be passing this poisonous prayer at the Church of the Heavenlty Taste, where there is wine list at communion? Be sure to try the traditional St. James Stanton Port with the Stilton flavored hosts. You’ll want to go back for seconds!

Tsk, tsk, tsk.  How little  Son O God understands of us Episcopalians!  We hold services only at the most upscale of churches – mine is the Church of the 18th Hole – and of course we would not deign to use anything other than the finest Bordeau vintages and biscotti at communion. bokononist — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

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Tsk, tsk, tsk.  How little  Son O God understands of us Episcopalians! We hold services only at the most upscale of churches – mine is the Church of the 18th Hole – and of course we would not deign to use anything other than the finest Bordeau vintages and biscotti at communion.

bokononist – old pal!  It’s been a long time!!  How’s about another round of golf next time you’re in town? See you at the Church of the Hole-in-One! By the way, you still haven’t paid up your debt from our last game. Regards

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What a cheap use of sarcasm…you two enjoy youselves on the links!!!  I’ll fly fish and thank God I’m there!  Peace to you all!!

We’re related. Regards

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tsk, tsk, tsk.  How little  Son O God understands of us Episcopalians! We hold services only at the most upscale of churches – mine is the Church of the 18th Hole – and of course we would not deign to use anything other than the finest Bordeau vintages and biscotti at communion. bokononist – old pal!  It’s been a long time!!  How’s about another round of golf next time you’re in town? See you at the Church of the Hole-in-One! By the way, you still haven’t paid up your debt from our last game.

What a cheap use of sarcasm…you two enjoy youselves on the links!!!  I’ll fly fish and thank God I’m there!  Peace to you all!!

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Little Willy Wantland sez….  "Be sure to ask for the genuine Eau Claire, Wisconsin Stilton   flavored hosts. Do not accept any substitutes!"

You CAN do better than that, I hope?  At this rate – you would not qualify for admission to a Mississippi Baptist high school (shudderat the thought).  You are welcome to try again, however. bokononist — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

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and the former baptist looking into episcopal church says, "gentleman PLEASE! more decorum!" on sodomy: yes quigle, you can "be episcopal and be gay" guess what? over 30 christian denominations have active gay movements in them..even the muslim religion now has one. Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

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Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up?    I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.

I agree, but I wasn’t talking about you.  :-) I went back and found out who it was, it was "Mr G", Here’s the excerpt: "The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.  " Now, do you believe that "the flow of [Tim's] persona" wins any moment of any thread?  He’s usually the first one in there swearing and cursing and spitting foul words. Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG)

None taken nor given. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words?     What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started     because Tim had to resort to swearing.             – Ken     —     Not speaking for anyone but myself       No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the   "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all   the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is   bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who   doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too   much drugs.  :-)

Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you. Pentium inside eh? -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you.

If so, I’m wrong.  Please read what I first wrote (what I’ve left unsnipped above). I asked him for clarification about what he wrote. Note the question marks…I’ll stop now so that I don’t turn and begin to spit foul words.  :-) GRRR,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said.

I stand corrected.  I DID ask for a clarification, but then the thread wandered and I forgot the starting point.  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them.            - Ken

How about adopting the sensible policy of only replying to the threads that you _do_ "keep up on".  Failing that, how about warning readers when you are replying to an article you have not read or thought about… cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Tim I don’t see how it is possible to "moderate" the group except by general consensus, ie. if someone oversteps the mark then the group excludes them to the extent that they give up and go elsewhere. If someone feels strongly enough to post a "fuck off" then OK, as long as it isn’t gratuitous. If you are insistent on creating a FAQ, (I don’t really consider it necessary, personally), then keep it to "frequently asked questions", why try and have rules that are unenforceable? General consensus will suffice. Personally, I still have reservations about Mr. Winters’ continued involvement with the group, time will tell if I am on my own on this one but, in my opinion, some valuable members have left as a result of his continued presence and this irks me. Maybe a few less Brits would suit some members of the group? Your apparent new found "sycophancy" worries me almost as much as the original "misdemeanours"! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded)

Even more fundamental question, who decides what is "un-gentlemenly"? There are many ways to be vulgar and offensive without swearing. Is it okay to say: "F*ck off" "BS" "Bite me" "Bite my rod" I have not used an "offensive" word in the list above, the meaning is still there. If we say that none of these is acceptable, who is going to enforce it.  You say you will leave if this group becomes moderated, but short of moderation this decision is unenforceable. Let me try to put this in terms you will understand since I hear that you are a programmer.  You have coding style requirements. With the requirements alone, nothing changes, with moderate enforcement you get some change, but mostly only after the enforcement has happened upon your unfortunate soul, or you have heavy enforcement where if you don’t code properly your code doesn’t compile and won’t work until you fix the error. If you want "posting" standards the same will occur.  Write down a list of rules and don’t enforce and it means nothing. Enforce heavily and it will work, but you will have a moderator sitting there saying yah or nay to every post. Is this what you want?  I’m not in favor of moderation, but this is an academic exercise if you think writing down rules will change anything. or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected)

This is status quo. I think the only way to "change" things is through individual policing. Think about how you personally are responding and whether or not you want to be seen the way your post makes you look.  There will always be abusive people on usenet, it’s your decision about how to respond to them.  For example, if someone, oh let’s see, calls someone a "fucking moron" you can respond in kind and get in a name-calling contest or ignore the post, or just snip out the line and continue with a semi-constructive argument.  It may not change the abusive poster, but at least things won’t turn into a complete brawl and you won’t be acting like a 2nd grader. I don’t know if this helped or not, but at least it made me feel slightly better (CRAPPY weekend). Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Umm…. ..are we gonna forget the charter and FAQ whilst everyone keeps pissing and moaning about Mr. G and what Tim REALLY meant and the rest of this Blah, Blah? I thought the "group" was serious about trying to get on track? Why don’t the limited number of you that want to continue griping about all the side issues find a chatroom to meet in and hammer this out between yourselves???

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… ROFF Charter  Purpose of NG  Goals of NG  Rules for posting to NG  Profanity  Selling  Attachments  When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s  Equipment  Rods and Reels  Float Devices  Nets  Vests  Lines  Leaders  Accessories  Clothing  Rain Gear  Hats  Waders/Boots  Guides  Tipping  Personal Experience Stories  Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs  Regular Frequent Posters  Known Commercial Posters  Known Frequently Medicated Posters

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<nice post "Any fish bite if you got good bait… I’m a going fishin’ too".<g — Charlie…

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Nice to see you back.  I still do not agree with most of what you say though. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<MERCILESS CHOP    The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track <MERCILESS CHOP   Hey, isn’t that what the investigator joker said too?  Anyway, I   can’t imagine what the hell this "back on track" acually means.  It   always was a bunch of us jackass fishers talking amongst ourselves about   whaterver we please and it always will be.   My observations of these groups (since their conception) is that for   every person who takes them (too) seriously, there are a thousand (and   climbing daily) who don’t.  If anyone wants to get with a group of   folks that are all as serious as they are should get into a   listserv – I’ll be happy to explain via email what this means.   FAQ’s for these groups are a great concept, but a waste of time.   99.44% of the time the only people aware of the FAQ are people who   don’t need it – and FAQ’s certainly don’t squelch the repetitive   discussions. cheers,   -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Q:  What’s the difference between Tim Walker’s head and a buttplug? A:  The buttplug comes out once in a while. Sorry, just had to complete the symmetry. I’ll help out on the FAQ, but someone, really anyone, has to set out a real and complete first draft of a Table of Contents.  It won’t be the final one and it won’t be right, but it will give a starting point.  I could suggest a list of 10 or so names for this job, but you guys probably know who you are.  Any volunteers?  We can’t really start without it. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ?

No offense, and with all due respect, it’s you. Swearing at people who don’t agree with you, calling people names when they don’t agree with you, doing whatever pleases you to someone who doesn’t agree with you is what makes this newsgroup so violent. If you REALLY are trying to turn over a new leaf then I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, but if you think that simply making a FAQ is going to change anything by itself you are far too optimistic. So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson.

Hey, give credit where credit is due, it was my pool.  :-) Although NOBODY was guessing this soon, you usually wait at least a couple of weeks. The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future.

<honest question Maybe you can define what a "better" ROFF looks like. – No political rants? – No ethical rants? – No swearing? – No name-calling? Unless you do some or all of those, what will change? </honest question Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ?

Sure, I’ll be happy to start over, again it’s mostly up to you though.  Your first swearing rant over someone C&R-ing a fish and we’ll be right back where we started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization..

The general info part of a FAQ is certainly a good idea.  I question the ability of a FAQ to regulate etiquette or to make a difference in the "endless threads".  The problem is that veterans already know the info and those who need the info rarely read FAQs. I would be willing to help with a general info section, but the other sections are basically futile in the chaotic USENet. Tell you what, if you can get an agreement on what a "better" ROFF looks like I’ll reconsider. I think you are underestimating the variety of viewpoints people have here. Good Luck,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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_____ Well Tim, I know nothing about this person Max that is supposed to be a rascal, but your arguments are of a reasonable man.  Of course, personally, I like most of the men in this group.  The only reason why there aren’t more ladies involved here is because . . . and then it ceases to be interesting regarding "attention spans and talking fishing?" Not important issue right now.  But I accept your reasoning. My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

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<lot of good stuff snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^) btw…"SECRET" flies in the mail come tuesday, just finished tying another batch of ‘em. -walt

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tim…you ‘da man…. ;^)

Yeah! — Bill

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ROFF Charter         Purpose of NG         Goals of NG         Rules for posting to NG                 Profanity                 Selling                 Attachments                 When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s         Equipment                 Rods and Reels                 Float Devices                 Nets                 Vests                 Lines                 Leaders                 Accessories         Clothing                 Rain Gear                 Hats                 Waders/Boots         Guides                 Tipping                 Personal Experience Stories         Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs         Regular Frequent Posters         Known Commercial Posters         Known Frequently Medicated Posters

Response:

Good start!  I’ve added a suggestion or two below.

: ROFF Charter :       Purpose of NG :       Goals of NG :       Rules for posting to NG :               Profanity :               Selling :               Attachments :               When to respond to Writer rather than Group : FAQ’s :       Equipment :               Rods and Reels :               Float Devices :               Nets :               Vests :               Lines :               Leaders :               Accessories :       Clothing :               Rain Gear :               Hats :               Waders/Boots :       Guides :               Tipping :               Personal Experience Stories :       Tying (see ROFFT)         General                Why are they picking on Orvis?                What do they have against Jeep Grand Cherokees?                Who is Brian Keith? : PERSONAL BIOs :       Regular Frequent Posters :       Known Commercial Posters :       Known Frequently Medicated Posters :       — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire. Lighten up….. –Walt

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire.

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Lighten up…..

Nah, I’m always too light, maybe if I called someone an imbecilic dweeb I could get in on the really good fights.  :-) Later,      - Ken P.S.  No hard feelings, I noted the smiley and please note mine in return. — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-)

Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.  I’ve no doubt some of Tim’s comments in the future will be succinct, curt, bombastic, witty, even vitriolic, but always well founded on solid principle. Can you match up to such a guy in eloquence and character? Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG) Regards, — Bill

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I am disturbed by these recent events. Restless.  Sleepless.  Bothered. What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ? IMHO – Max Whittington is, I am certain (now more than ever) a good man who made an honest mistake.  Lord knows, I have.   Moreover he made a mistake about something he is passionate about.  Lord knows, I have done that too.  Have you ? I have read carefully every post has made here and I see something different than what has been revealed by these events. First off he is helpful to the beginner.  Cordial and a gentleman.  Sincere.  He is also a hell of an investigator <g, this might be useful when the REAL loons come around <g. We can not all get mad and quit when something bad happens and I am not setting any example.  I am very sorry for that.  If we all acted like this…then there were none. —- Like the constant upstream migration of an emerging insect, with all of the odds against it, we *must* press upstream and solve this problem…. —- So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson. I can not leave the group like this.  It sucks.  It’s mean spirited and hurting.  And it is only Qayaniskatsi – Life out of balance. I do not sense mean hearts among us, anywhere, do you ? —- I have 2 serious issues.  Please bear with me The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future. —- First off…everyone…please go to www.dejanews.com and read the stuff Max posts.  He’s a good Joe, IMO (not that MY opinion is worth a ratty waterlogged adams). It is true that I felt violated by the background check and the email to my employer, but he woke my eyes up in a huge way. It may NOT be safe to have an unchecked opinion in cyberspace.  You too might want to consider this.  I am hoping to find out just what in the world is out there easily for people to find and I intend to ask Max to help me. Friends… You take the bad with the good, but you look for the good… …and I see a hell of a lot of it in that man. I challenge you to read *all* of his posts and not agree. I know (feel) that something positive is coming out of this and in the end I predict that not only will Max be a good friend to a lot of us, but that ROFF will be better, stronger and more organized place to deal with the hectic, eclectic and sometimes strange internet demands placed upon it. — Let’s use this as an opportunity to grow.  Individually, collectively… — That was my first serious issue and I am serious. Can we forgive and forget by remembering [who we are]…Royal Order of the Brothers of the Bugchuckers… Number two will just be ‘#2′  <g if we can not. Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ? Part 2. RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly Request for Discussion… We need a new FAQ for ROFF.  It is high time.   I believe that none of this would have happened if we had one and will take at some of the heat if for this alone. I’ve been around long enough that it’s at least partly my laziness that we don’t have the damned thing done yet ! John Ferriera, where are you ? Consider this…. The C&R thread has been active for at least 7-8 years ?  It has started/ended/mutated so many times that it’s *amazing*.  This can *only* speak to its relevence of it as a valid subject in our sport, or at least to a buncha people here as it relates to our sport (I am in this group that feels that it needs discussing). That, however, is *not* the point (only an example)…please view it only as such. The point is, is that it is maddening to have to justify its (the threads) existence over and over and over, like some of us have had to.  Why should I feel guilty discussing C&R ad infinitum around here ?  (or cussing or swearing…).  We have been around and around on this and I have a solid proposal. To use Max’s example: Assume that this is a club, only its like no other club in the world.  We have no limitations on membership. No education requirements or dress code.  We have no choice in the matter, really, unless we moderate the group, because this group exists in the Universe of the internet we must treat it as a subset of this Universe.   If the group becomes moderated, well…that’s fine…but then please point me to the unmoderated one. The FAQ *WILL* give credence to and justify these ongoing threads so that they will not be the targets of trivialization or condemnation.  Moreover the FAQ will set the rules of fair play in ROFF that we will all have to agree to, or move on. Certain things will be covered in the FAQ, such as "Opinions on Floatants". Hopefully, this will grow with relevent information and all of the info, such as Albolene, secret formulas and the history of George Gehrke and his product on can get thoroughly and objectively covered there once. Instead of saying "This group sucks…can we change it ?", We could say…"Uh…this part of the FAQ sucks, can we change it …?". Thus I propose a *MEMBER DETERMINED* FAQ having a "table of contents" something like: "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization.. IOW – Shouldn’t we get our collective shit together a little ? Vroman hates me for a very similar misunderstanding…we simply don’t agree on what ROFF is, but how can either of us be right if NOBODY knows what ROFF is ? By end of summer…let’s say…we all agree on what ROFF is…DEAL ? It’s something to consider…. Max, I hope you’re still with us ? Comments ? Peace. No hard feelings…. I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW What is ROFF ?

Response:

Question:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

My friend Jim Dionne at Dirigo Flies says he can help you out, and hit your price range Give him a call at (800) 893-2815 tell him you’re the guy from the internet I told him about.                                         jc

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while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Yes I do!  But they only have 2/0, 2, and 6 ($2.25), and the 2/0 only in chartreuse and white (which by the way is my favorite saltwater color!). They are the Fly Fishing Shop in Welches Oregon.  They have a wonderful web site at www.teleport.com/~flyfish  Their number is 503-622-4607. They are pleasure to deal with long distance, and I’m willing to bet they can get you what you want in any color with a little advance notice.  Good luck! Phil

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while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks! Yes I do!  But they only have 2/0, 2, and 6 ($2.25), and the 2/0 only in chartreuse and white (which by the way is my favorite saltwater color!). They are the Fly Fishing Shop in Welches Oregon.  They have a wonderful web site at www.teleport.com/~flyfish  Their number is 503-622-4607. They are pleasure to deal with long distance, and I’m willing to bet they can get you what you want in any color with a little advance notice.  Good luck! Phil

I have an on line catalog and have the Clousers in any size and color that you want. You can see my catalog at http://www.surfsouth.com/~jbranham/retailcatalog.html

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I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Hello- This is probably not what you want to here, but… I would suggest learning to tie them yourself. Clousers are extremely easy to tie and the materials are cheap. I am not a very fast tyer, and I just turned out 10 in the last hour. I tied them on 3/0 for salt water use (Mustad 3407 hooks at about $7/100). That way you can tie them in any size or color combo you want. Even if you don’t tie now with just a few very basic lessons you can tie clousers. Good Luck! Steve Rosenblum

Response:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Response:

I don’t want to spend $3.50 and up for Clousers (via Orvis or my local shop) and while LL Bean’s got em for $2.25 or so (much more in line), they don’t sell them in 1/0, which is pretty much the size I want.  So, does anyone know a good mailorder source for Clousers at a reasonable price? Thanks!

Try to get a second hand vice and tie your own. They are the most simple saltwater fly to tie and you can make a hundred for what it costs to buy ten at Orvis prices. Get the cheapest vice you can find at first and THEN decide if you want to keep tying. If so, consider the best vice you can afford and prepare yourself for the plethora of tying materials you will want to buy along with the books, videos and CD-ROMs you will get to learn how to tie. Good Luck,         jmc

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Question:

What is the outlook for flyfishing Mamoth this spring and summer. Lots of insects again.  Any good spots to recommend?

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I’ll be out that way from Reno, NV the last week in June–just wondered if anybody knows these waters and what might be suggested? Thanks!

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Question:

Last month someone on this newsgroup posted an inquiry regarding where to find appropriately sized waders for children. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name/address of the poster. I believe I referred him/her to LL Bean, Cabela, or Damsel Fly. Yesterday I received a catalog from "The Global Flyfisher" in Northbrook, Illinois which lists "Fly Tech Youth Waders" which sound like exactly what this person was looking for. The listing in the catalog: "Finally, Fly Tech brings us an affordable neoprene youth wader! These youth waders have everything adult waders have. Made of 3.5mm Neoprene with a high back and adjustable suspenders. They have a large handwarmer pocket, padded knee pads, Hypalon soles, 3-D rings for accessories. Gravel guards and repair kit included. Brown." Comes in Small, Medium, and Large (they include a sizing chart). Price= $65.00 Phone: 800-457-7026 I have no ties to this company and have not seen the waders myself except in a picture, but I thought if the person was still out there looking for waders for their kid this might be the ticket.

Response:

I’d like to hear a serious discussion of peripheral gear…waders and boots.  Let me start by telling those what I have found out then pose some questions.  Stocking foot waders seem to be more versatile than booted waders i.e. your stocking foots can go into your float tube fins for example and you have your choice of boots, felt sole for mossy bottom cleats for whatever. Neoprenes seem to have no use.  As someone who travels I need all the lightness and space I can get.  Even in the coldest Western stream I am toasty warm in plastic redball waders and sweet pants for insulation.  I use my waders protective socks made of neoprene that are designed to prevent chafing of the lightweight waders and keep gravel out with a cuff INSIDE my waders over my socks.  This keeps my feet warm and prevents me from feeling that bunched up sock and wader feeling that we all hate after walking around with all this gear on.  This negates the protection of the wader but really feels comfortable all day long.  If you have any other tips to share please post them.  Using this system of layering under thin waders I have put my neoprenes away forever.   My questions are do the Gortex fabrics that allow the wader to breath keep you drier inside on a hot day?  Do they really work as advertised?  My biggest problem is that sweaty clammy feeling from wearing a plastic bag all day.  Second, for those of you who have to hike in and pass through water to fish what do you do?  Feltsole boots are crappy hiking boots.  I’m thinking of forgetting the feltsoles and   trying hiking boots in my waders.   Anyone do this?  

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what do you do?  Feltsole boots are crappy hiking boots.  I’m thinking of forgetting the feltsoles and   trying hiking boots in my waders.   Anyone do this?

Hiking boots are crappy wading boots. If you step on a smooth, wet rock with rubber soled boots you might as well be wearing roller skates. Tight Lines Jay Whitworth

Response:

Griz, Regarding you idea about using hiking boots with your waders, while I haven’t done that yet, I plan to. For years I used nothing but a three-ply (canvas, rubber,canvas) pair of hodgman’s hippers. I love them because they’re the toughest thing you can get for the money. However, i find as I stray farther from my home waters that I need chest waders, and I happened upon a going out of business sale and got a pair of neo. for $50. However, because the boots are so expensive and I’m so cheap, I thought about just going to a discount store and buying some fake leather hiking boots. Seems logical. I’ll tell you how they work when I get back from a trip to the west branch of the delaware in New York.  I’m looking forward to a heavy hendrikson hatch. grant

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Griz, Regarding you idea about using hiking boots with your waders, while I haven’t done that yet, I plan to. For years I used nothing but a three-ply (canvas, rubber,canvas) pair of hodgman’s hippers. I love them because they’re the toughest thing you can get for the money. However, i find as I stray farther from my home waters that I need chest waders, and I happened upon a going out of business sale and got a pair of neo. for $50. However, because the boots are so expensive and I’m so cheap, I thought about just going to a discount store and buying some fake leather hiking boots. Seems logical. I’ll tell you how they work when I get back from a trip to the west branch of the delaware in New York.  I’m looking forward to a heavy hendrikson hatch. grant

Hi Grant, For years I used a pair of jungle boots purchased at a surplus store. All I had to do was glue indoor/outdoor carpet to the soles. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Question:

Does anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are.

Response:

Does anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are.

http://flyfish.com is one and it has extensive links to other FF only websites.

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Does anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are.

My page!  Raske’s Fly Fishing In Maine http://www.mint.net/~raske/index.html regards, R.A. Skehan

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Response:

: oes anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to :flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are. : : There are several hundred at least.  Simply use any one of the various search engines available at no charge to you, me or anyone else (Yahoo, Web Crawler, Excite, c-nets search.com, etc.).  Search on fly fishing and set back, they will roll by from all over the world.  Hundreds Jerry Shepherd

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: oes anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to :flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are.

   There are a bunch. Try:  http://www.flyline.com   for starters. It’s the best on the net but then again I wrote it so there might be just a bit of bias in the opinion    Ralph —

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : oes anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to :flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are.    There are a bunch. Try:  http://www.flyline.com   for starters. It’s the best on the net but then again I wrote it so there might be just a bit of bias in the opinion    Ralph —

There also is  http://www.flyshop.no/

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There are lots and lots, you can do a search on any of the search engines or check out my page.  It’s in my sig file. : oes anyone out there know if there are any WEB pages devoted to :flyfishing only?  If so please let me know what the URL for them are.

If you can’t beat ‘em, groin ‘em

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Hi if you are looking for fly fishing products my home page is http//www.junction.net/herbys/

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