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<snip Nice read, Sam. — TL, Tim

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Howdy Sam     As a sometime resident of Pa. i have a camper in Coburn close to Penns Creek wife is from Scranton where would this lovely little stream be i would like to check it out. Email me if you want.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

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I finished up my summer vacation at my boyhood home in eastern Pennsylvania late in the evening of July 3. I planned to rise before dawn on Independence Day and fish my favorite little creek. [HISTORIC ASIDE] I fished this creek as a boy some twenty five years earlier. Then, it was at best, marginal water.  Smelly, appearing nearly devoid of anything alive, and in places, algae nearly choked the stream due to phosphate pollution from industry far upstream. But it had trout, and I could walk there. Twenty five years ago that’s all I needed. In the intervening years, I went off to college, moved several times, got married, and had several jobs. I visited the creek whenever I got back home. Never to fish, just to try to recapture some of those boyhood memories I guess.  Over the past 6 or 7 years, I noticed that the smell had gone and so did the algae. Not surprising, since the upstream industry, and all the related jobs, disappeared. That is why most of my contemporaries and I left the area in the first place. Over the past 3 years, I was able to follow stocking reports, Pennsylvania state water reports and even fishing reports via the internet.  The stream was definitely on the mend. In fact, recently it was supposed to be removed from the list stocked streams due to a "Class B or better designation, and sizable wild trout population" according to the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission (PAFBC). The decision to not stock was later reversed because of a public outcry. Knowing some of the history of this stream, and knowing some of the troubles of the PAFBC, I was skeptical to say the least. [END OF HISTORICAL ASIDE] Before dawn came and went (as it sometimes does) and I was still in bed. However, I was on the creek by 6:00am. It was already hot, opressively hot. I was to pay dearly for that extra hour of sleep. Should have gotten up at 4:30 like the alarm clock said. It was the tail end of week long 90+ degree streak. The water had a good flow but promised little relief from the heat. As I entered the water, I was pleasantly surprised by the cool press of my breathables against my bare legs.  Stream thermometer read 66 degrees, not too shabby! I waded upstream about 100 yards or so, and stood in an ankle deep riffle. I gazed upstream at a 50 yard stretch of knee deep flat water, with another riffle at the head. There were about a dozen fish rising in front of me.  I could not tell what they were feeding on, but I did notice that most of the bugs I saw were gray. So I tied on a #16 gray EHC. There were at least two fish between the biggest riseform and myself, and it was under a low hanging branch.  Not going to get that one. I decided to cast to the closest one, which I spooked after a few casts.  I crept forward to cast to the next one that was still feeding.  On the second cast, there was a kamakazee rise to my fly.  As I set the hook, I thought "little fish, big ones don’t crash that hard…probably not a trout anyway". I had it, or wait, did it have me? It was not quite the little fish I imagined. After a savage but brief fight, I brought a beautifully colored, fully finned, and yes, wild 15 inch brown trout to hand. After a quick and admiring look, I released it, and it darted upstream.  I was so happy I laughed out loud. I waited for about 15 minutes for the fish to start rising again, but they never did.  It was 7:45am, and the heat was intensifiying.  I briefly though of moving on upstream, but then thought I should just go home. Landing more fish on that day would make me no happier.

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Question:

Reading G’s nicely written posts about a tough caddis hatch and RW’s response (which I happen to agree with), got me thinking about a very versatile and simple tie I use alot during lower water conditions. I don’t like to change flies. I feel that, most of the time, if you present the right sized fly IN THE WAY THE FISH WANT IT, you will have more success. More success than using the "right" fly presented slightly wrong. This is a debate that has gone on as long as people have been fly fishing and I’m just stating my take on it. I’d rather use my time making changes in presentation than in changing flies. The tie is as simple as can be and is nothing special.  It is very drab to look at and, for this reason, will never be popular. Its strength is its versatility. The tie has a scraggly body of dubbing. I often use an antron mix but I’m not sure this is important. The wing consists of sparsely tied, somewhat short Elk hair. I usually use a light color because it is easier to see. No hackle is used and the head is just the thread from wrapping down the ends of the Elk hair. That’s it. In the low water conditions, when I generally use it, I mainly fish a size 18 but also use it in a 20 and a 16. The fly can be effective during a variety of hatches.  I used a size 18 successfully while I fished for about an hour this AM during a Trico spinner fall. A 20 usually works during midge hatches. The 18 covers a variety of the smaller early and late season Mays and Caddis. Fishing the fly: I usually go through the following sequence in trying to determine how to best fish the fly. Upstream drag free float with the fly on the surface Upstream drag free drift with the fly in the film Upstream "drag free" drift with the saturated fly drifting along in mid to bottom current keeping very light contact with the fly by following the fly with the rod tip and removing all slack as the fly drifts down Dry off the fly Up and across stream, rod tip kept high doing some skittering across the current. The heavier the current the more skittering.   Up and across stream, pull the fly under and retrieve the fly across the current Up and across stream, pull the fly under and do a "traditional" wet   fly drift, mending to allow the fly to sink and allowing the fly        the hang in the current at the end of the drift. Then the fly is    lifted and skittered across the surface The skittering techniques often results in missed strikes or refusals. However, it tells you where a feeding fish is and you can usually take it with one of the other type of drifts.   The above routine works best for actively feeding fish. In water from inches to about three foot deep (depending on current speed), the water can be covered from top to bottom with no terminal tackle changes. Willi

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Dry off the fly

What do you do here – blow on it, use some drying pad, shake it in dessicant….? Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Dry off the fly What do you do here – blow on it, use some drying pad, shake it in dessicant….?

Whatever.  I usually just use my shirt. Willi

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Jeffnc I usually false cast it two or three times, then blow on it and shake it in desiccant powder and re coat it with floatant.  If that doesn’t work I replace it. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dry off the fly What do you do here – blow on it, use some drying pad, shake it in dessicant….? Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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I printed this post and will study it.  I’ve always read willi’s posts, but now that i have fished with the guy….  i’ll memorize them. That post really can help speed up the learning curve.  Great Stuff Willi. The western clavesters don’t call him the Troutmaster for nothing, and he’s a very modest and super friendly person to boot. Hmmmm…. changing presentations.  I was the guy in montana constantly changing flies and lead, now i’ll deliberately try different presentations beforehand. bruiser Before you buy.

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Willi: I am trying to visualize this fly. Is it like an elk-hair caddis, with the wing tied trude style, no hackle?? Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – its versatility. The tie has a scraggly body of dubbing. I often use an antron mix but I’m not sure this is important. The wing consists of sparsely tied, somewhat short Elk hair. I usually use a light color because it is easier to see. No hackle is used and the head is just the

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Question:

    Hi, I have never been in eastern Sierra area, but I am planning to make a photo trip to there soon. Shooting landscape is the major purpose of my trip. My question to you are: (1) ‘What are the top 10 places you think a landscape photographer must visit and shoot?’

Alabama Hills (very hot in summer) Mono Lake Lee Vining Creek Yosemite Hot Creek Use your eyes and you will find plenty. — http://www.fnet.net/~ellis/photo/

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Having just gotten back from there I would add Bodie state park if you like ghost towns. I would also recommend a couple of sites at mono lake 1.  The south toufa (sp?) walk and tour 2.  The panum crater walk and tour. of course you can’t go wrong with anything in Yosemite. Make sure you have a place to stay before you go. btb

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Hi, I have never been in eastern Sierra area, but I am planning to make a photo trip to there soon. Shooting landscape is the major purpose of my trip. My question to you are: (1) ‘What are the top 10 places you think a landscape photographer must visit and shoot?’ Alabama Hills (very hot in summer) Mono Lake Lee Vining Creek Yosemite Hot Creek Use your eyes and you will find plenty. — http://www.fnet.net/~ellis/photo/

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(2) Best guide book for photo trip to Eastern Sierra    Any feedback/suggestions are appreciated. Ronald

Take a look at California’s Eastern Sierra, A Vistor’s Guide by Sue Irwin (Cachuma Press). Good photos and info and only $18. Claude

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Ronald, The Eastern Sierra is beautiful any time ofyear or day.  I suggest starting at one end of the Owens Valley and work your way through it, using your imagination.  You will no doubt find some spots of your own that are just as good or better than any that can be recommended. Bob Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Come on over to my website and check out my sections on Mono Lake, Rock Creek, and the White Mountains. That will give you some ideas for shooting. I have some commentary there also in the different sections pertaining to those locations. http://www.californiapictures.com It is a good time now to shoot wildflowers in Mammoth Lakes. Go to Reds Meadow early, I mean early or you can’t drive your car. They will make you ride the trams after 6:30AM. They are trying to keep the traffic out. Dale Proctor * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Everyone has talked about Mono Lake, personally I haven’t been there, been close.  That is on a list of to-go places, however, I’ve been to Bodie which is a ghost town.  I think it is one of the nicest ghost towns that I’ve been to and would recommend it to others. Would need to gage your timing for lighting, etc. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

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Hi, Mono Lake is, without question, unique. But there are many other places of charm and beauty. On the web, start at http://www.395.com  This will give you links to about every place you’ll want to visit. It all depends on your tastes of course. In the Mammoth Lakes area, there are many opportunities to shoot wild flowers. Also consider Devil’s Postpile and Rainbow falls. The lakes basin is also nice with long and short hikes of various degrees of difficulty. The Mammoth Ranger Station can be very helpful! South of Mammoth Lakes you will find Convict Lake (morning shot), Hot Creek geo-thermal area (and fly fishing), McGee creek, and Little Lakes Valley. Little Lakes Valley is a very nice walk, spectacular at times, and not too strenuous, despite the high elevation. North of Mammoth is Lundy Canyon, fantastic in the fall.  The June Lake loop is another possibiliby, just south of Lee Vining. Lee Vining is, of course, where you will find Mono Lake as well as the eastern entrance to Yosemite via Tioga Pass. This is a fantastic road, an engineering feat (and perfectly safe), with grand vistas to the east. Tuolomne Meadows, just a few miles inside the park will give you a taste of granit domes. Before the park entrace is a road to the right (north) that takes you to Saddle Bag Lake. North of Lee Vining, about 5 mi before you get to Bridgeport, is the turn off to Bodie. Great pictures here! But watch the sun. The park is open from 9:00 am to 7:00 pm in the summer. You can shoot in August until about 10:30 am and then again after about 3:30. When the sun is low you get wonderful colors in the wooden buildings. When the sun is high, you can try to take some interiors through windows. Shooting anywhere in the Eastern Sierra generally requires a polarizer (but be careful; if you polarize to strongly the sky will turn almost black). Also, because of the altitude and thin atmosphere there is a lot of blue coming through. A 81A or 81B (better) will give you truer colors. One last tip. Watch the dust! A lot of it is pumice and it can scratch your glass. (Actually pumice is the foam form of the black obsidion, which is  volcanic glass.)  If you are interested, I have a section on Bodie on my webpage with links to other sites. (I’m in the process of re-doing the sections on Sierra Wild Flowers and the Eastern Sierra.)  http://toms_place_2.tripod.com Enjoy your trip! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      Hi, I have never been in eastern Sierra area, but I am planning to make a photo trip to there soon. Shooting landscape is the major purpose of my trip. My question to you are: (1) ‘What are the top 10 places you think a landscape photographer must visit and shoot?’ (2) Best guide book for photo trip to Eastern Sierra     Any feedback/suggestions are appreciated. Ronald

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     Hi, I have never been in eastern Sierra area, but I am planning to make a photo trip to there soon. Shooting landscape is the major purpose of my trip. My question to you are: (1) ‘What are the top 10 places you think a landscape photographer must visit and shoot?’ (2) Best guide book for photo trip to Eastern Sierra     Any feedback/suggestions are appreciated. Ronald

  shourong.shu.vcf

< 1K Download

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Mono LAke. If it is no #1 then it is #2 or 3. Shoot at sunrise. GO th day before to scope out the area then come back for sunrise. With a little luch you will have clouds inte western sky andit will explode with color. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

     Hi, I have never been in eastern Sierra area, but I am planning to make a photo trip to there soon. Shooting landscape is the major purpose of my trip. My question to you are: (1) ‘What are the top 10 places you think a landscape photographer must visit and shoot?’

Besides putting Mono Lake at the top of the list, here are some ideas in no particular order: – Mono Lake   See my "East of the Sierra" web gallery for some images from Mono Lake   (http://www.designsinlight.com/gallery.htm) – Alambama Hills   Near Lone Pine and Mt. Whitney, and where many westerns were shot. – White & Inyo Mountains – Bristlecone Pine forest   Some of the oldest living things in the world (4000+ years) and very cool looking   Some info: http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/WhiteMts.html – Bodie ghost town – June Lake One meteorlogical feature to keep an eye out for is lenticular clouds. They form where there is a strong, steady wind blowing over mountains, in places like Owens Valley east of the Sierra Nevada. They can make for some spectacular skies, especially at sunrise or sunset. Have fun! It’s a beautiful part of the world. gene — Gene Anderson http://www.designsinlight.com/

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Question:

Hi, folks.  I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod.  I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier.    Much obliged.    paul

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Hi, folks.  I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod.  I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier.   Much obliged.   paul

        i have gone to atlantic many times, and caught nice blues and pompano in close with spinning gear.  however, that has been in the late summer and early fall.  if you want to try a pier, go to the iron city pier in the pine knolls shore area of the island. wayno

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Hi, folks. I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod. I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier. Much obliged. paul

Still a little early for much to be happening.  Sometimes you can catch a school of False Albacore at the end od the pier but this is "iffy". Most piers are officially closed but still allow you to fish for free, just not opening their pier houses.  Check the inlets for possible striper action. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Paul, If you have access to some kind of small boat like a skiff, a kayak or even a canoe you can have a great time.  If you can get back into any of the creeks along either side of the ICW you may indeed find some redfish and/or specks.  Good flies include chat/white clousers and if the water is murky the Copperhead works wonders.  I will not be in the Atlantic Beach area myself during that time frame but any help I can send your way via email I will be happy to assist.  Check at Pete’s Tackle Shop on Arendell Street in Morehead City for more info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, folks.  I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod.  I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier.    Much obliged.    paul

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You mean the Iron Steamer pier, and it has hurricane damage that hasn’t been repaired. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, folks.  I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod.  I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier.   Much obliged.   paul i have gone to atlantic many times, and caught nice blues and pompano in close with spinning gear.  however, that has been in the late summer and early fall.  if you want to try a pier, go to the iron city pier in the pine knolls shore area of the island. wayno

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Latest reports from Bogue Inlet Pier (about 20 miles on other end of Bogue Banks — check thier website) is reporting big blow fish, spotty gray and speckled trout, and periodically good shows of sea mullet.  The flounder should start anytime now, as should blues (they are present farther south near the SC border and moving north).  Spots will probably be more abundant in 2 weeks from now, false albacore should be active just offshore (try the end of a pier), and a few other early birds like cobia may be starting up, depending on water temp.  Off-shore in the Gulf Stream you will be able to get tuna, wahoo, and dolphin (maui maui, dorado, etc.). Enjoy!  Try the NC inshore offshore web page for fishing reports. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, folks.  I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod.  I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier.   Much obliged.   paul

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Paul, Go to the Aquarium to access the sound. This time of the year, I normally fish the running tide (both in and out) over sand bars for Flounder (on a fly rod). I prefer to be on the sound with the lowest tide, closest to sunrise. My Out (In) Laws live right off Salther Path in PKS, and I take a small boat down to the Sound side near the Sheraton. Also, the Oysters and Mussels will be good for the pickin’ (if you are in to it). Good Luck ! SD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, folks.  I’ll be in the Atlantic Beach area in North Carolina in mid-April, with my fly rod and my surf rod.  I don’t get to the beach often, so I’d appreciate any advice on what’s out there and how to catch it, from shore or pier.    Much obliged.    paul

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Question:

Could anyone out there tell me what you need to preserve feathers? A friend told me that you could preserve them with borax.  We have not yet been able to come up with a mixture ratio for this material.  Are there other preservatives which could be used? First task is to remove all fat or flesh from the skin.  When this is done, some tyers do not bother with any preservative, since they are not going to use the skin for any purpose, i.e. it does not need to stay flexible.

No, but it does need to be bug resistant.  I find that soaking bird or mammal skins in a saturated borax solution* and then drying them in a tray full of borax bug-proofs them without the use of anything smelly or toxic. *Fill a pail with hot water.  Add borax (plain unscented washing soda) and stir.  Keep adding borax until no more will dissolve.  Cool to room temperature. Soak your skins. Keep your stick on the ice, Thos.

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Could anyone out there tell me what you need to preserve feathers?

snip….. snip…. No, but it does need to be bug resistant.  I find that soaking bird or mammal skins in a saturated borax solution* and then drying them in a tray full of borax bug-proofs them without the use of anything smelly or toxic. *Fill a pail with hot water.  Add borax (plain unscented washing soda) and stir.  Keep adding borax until no more will dissolve.  Cool to room temperature. Soak your skins.

Here’s another method that has worked well for me. Scrape all fat off the underside of the skin. Tack the skin to a board or piece of cardboard with the feathers down. Make sure the feathers are dry and arranged the way you want them before you do this. Sprinkle dry borax on the scraped skin surface covering all exposed skin. Be generous with the Borax. It will absorb water out of the skin. I kind of pile it on. Let it sit out for a few days to a few weeks. I don’t know the minimum time because I often set these out in the garage or basement and forget them for a while. A low humidity area would be best. When the skin is crinkly dry, untack it and brush off the borax and you are done. For a final treatment, put it in a plastic baggy and run it through several freeze-thaw cycles in order to kill any remaining resident insects. Cheers. Jon

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I’ve used footpowder to "cure" moose hide and it really works. Don’t see why it wouldn’t do the same thing on capes :O)  It’s also inexpesive and goes a long ways. Keith P

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone out there tell me what you need to preserve feathers? A friend told me that you could preserve them with borax.  We have not yet been able to come up with a mixture ratio for this material.  Are there other preservatives which could be used? Also,  I would like to dye some of the capes.  Have heard that you should dye at the same time the felts are being cured? Any information on this procedure would be very appreciated. Trout Bum.

I just use plain old course salt.  Just spread the salt generously over the hyde and lay out in the sun, feather side down of course.  The saly draws out the moisture and the sun evaporates it.  After the skin is dry I shake off the excess salt then dust with talcum powder.  I still have pelts from pheasant season of two years ago, works great for me.                                                         Spy in Hawaii

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Could anyone out there tell me what you need to preserve feathers? A friend told me that you could preserve them with borax.  We have not yet been able to come up with a mixture ratio for this material.  Are there other preservatives which could be used?

Hi BB, Years ago, I had some young customers that would go to the local live stock auction and bid on old roosters. They said they paid about $2 to $3 for live birds. They killed and skinned them. They tacked the skins feather side down, skin side up on a wood surface. They used salt to dry up and cure the skins. After they are real dry and stiff, I would put them into an airtight container or a big zip lock bag. As far as dying the feathers goes, you can use Rite or Vinyards(sp) dye. It is an art and not many do it well. The skin/feathers have to be clean, de-greased and moistened to except the dye. You put the dye into water and control the temperature so as to not ‘burn’ or ‘cook’ the feathers. I think we added something like rubbing alcohol to set the dye? You need very white hackle if you are looking for bright colors. Black is very hard to get. It can turn out purple. I hear about ‘cold’ dying processes. Good luck and have fun. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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Hi, The method I used to preserve some pheasant skins was to scrape off as much fat as possible with a *non-serated edge* butter knife, stretch out and tack the skin feather side down, rub out and let dry with rock salt (usually 2 or 3 applications) and finally to cover the remaining almost-clean skin with borax. Then I let it dry in the garage for about 2 weeks.   Then I put them in a zip-lock bag.  Still have some of one skin left after ~12 years.

**SNIP** As far as dying the feathers goes, you can use Rite or Vinyards(sp) dye. It is an art and not many do it well. The skin/feathers have to be clean, de-greased and moistened to except the dye. You put the dye into water and control the temperature so as to not ‘burn’ or ‘cook’ the feathers. I think we added something like rubbing alcohol to set the dye? You need very white hackle if you are looking for bright colors. Black is very hard to get. It can turn out purple. I hear about ‘cold’ dying processes. Good luck and have fun.

To get a decent black with RIT dye you also have to add some brown into the mix.  Added a bit of Vinegar to set the dye (insturctions on the package). Like Bill said, you have to be careful with the temperatures (use a candy thermometer) or you can ruin some great feathers.   This is a very messy process but is worth the effort if you can’t get what you need locally and you can dye a bunch of stuff at once.  A.K. Best has a book out on dying materials that is quite good if your interested.                                   Good Fishing,                                         Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

Could anyone out there tell me what you need to preserve feathers? A friend told me that you could preserve them with borax.  We have not yet been able to come up with a mixture ratio for this material.  Are there other preservatives which could be used? Also,  I would like to dye some of the capes.  Have heard that you should dye at the same time the felts are being cured?   Any information on this procedure would be very appreciated. Trout Bum.

Response:

Could anyone out there tell me what you need to preserve feathers? A friend told me that you could preserve them with borax.  We have not yet been able to come up with a mixture ratio for this material.  Are there other preservatives which could be used?

First task is to remove all fat or flesh from the skin.  When this is done, some tyers do not bother with any preservative, since they are not going to use the skin for any purpose, i.e. it does not need to stay flexible. Also,  I would like to dye some of the capes.  Have heard that you should dye at the same time the felts are being cured?  

See Eric Leiser’s Fly Tying Materials (1973) or other books.  The main points seem to be preliminary rinse with a mordant, to maximize dye’s effect, and then control of temperature to avoid cooking (the way egg white is transformed by high temperature.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H

Ralph has some good points,especially about avoiding level lines.  They are a total waste of money, plus cause casting problems and bad casting habits that take years to get rid of.  The less expensive Orvis Clearwater lines, and the SA beginner lines actually make casting easier for novices because of their short front taper design.  They turns over flys more easily.  The sacrifice delicacy in doing so, but usually a novice’s casting skills aren’t too delicate anyway and they help the cast extend.  As your skills improve, you will probably want to buy a better line before you wear one of these out. While some people have a tough time learning on a fast action or tip-flex rod, I’d hesitate to recommend a full-flex (soft action) rod for a beginner. In 1987 as we started changing the rods in the Orvis West Coast Schools from the full-flex Superfine Limestone Special to the mid-flex "Western Series Spring Creek" we had both types available for a while for our students.  Students would race to get the Western Series rods because they were easier to cast without throwing tailing loops.  Shortly thereafter we replaced all the full flex rods with the Western Series.  I should note we teach a forearm based stroke in our casting programs (both Orvis WC and my own schools) which works very well with this type of rod.  When people first start out the most common mistake is to use too much wrist often snapping it in mid stroke which almost ivariably overdrives the tip and causes tailing loops.  The mid to tip flex rods eliminate a lot of this problem because it is harder to overdrive the tip with this kind of design.  It can still be done, but is a more forgiving (of mistakes) action for beginners. Still, you need to cast the rods to see which ones you like.                            Good Luck,                                      Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

If you are new, next to nothing.  At first, you probably won’t be able to tell the difference between a $60 outfit and a $500 rod.  Take your outfit out, fish with it, beat it up, make mistakes, break a tip, slip on a rock and break the handle off the reel (done that), but go fishing.  In a year or so, go to a fly shop and cast various rods once you’ve got the hang of things. If you can tell the difference and like the difference buy what you can afford.  If you can’t tell the difference or don’t like the difference stick with what you have or buy another one. I started out with a $15 rod/reel combo.  It cast like a broomstick, but it was what I could afford and caught fish. When I actually had money, I knew how to cast and could feel the difference in the actions of various rods and bought a reasonable quality rod/reel.  Plus when I fell on that rock and busted my reel I didn’t worry about it (much). My $0.02,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Well the feel of the rod and its ability to case by improving transfer of energy to the line.  Oh I almost forgot the most important part, to demonstrate your dedication to the sport by showing others that you sent a reasonable sum of cash.  The person who spent the most has the best zen in fly fishing the rest is just for fun.  So I suggest that you peal the name off your rod and turn your reel in a lath and tell folks it is a two grand custom rig from Scotland this will impress them and the fish.  Or you could spend your time fishing and simply enjoying your surroundings and the sport.   good luck and get out and spend or fish. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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Monte Porche wrote [snip] Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

My guess is you’re probably right in going with the less expensive outfit to begin with.  I think you have to flyfish for awhile before you can start to appreciate some of the performance advantages of a more expensive rod. After you’ve gotten to the point where your casting effectively (not necessarily great … but effectively), try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).  Rod speed is a factor that is important to many people – this refers to speed of casting movement which most "naturally" optimizes the cast for a particular rod.  Some people like fast rods, some like slow ones, it’s a matter of personal preference.  It’s also an issue you probably shouldn’t worry about until you have some experience … learn how to deal with the rod you have and you’ll be better able to feel the differences in performance of other rods. Also, these days, many of the more expensive rods come with a lifetime, no-questions-asked guarantee.  What this really means is that part of the price you pay is really group benefit rod insurance.  (If you fish a lot, you’ll probably make a claim sooner or later yourself!). —                                                       -dnc-

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All of the replies so far have been good. Heres my addition: The difference between low cost vs higher cost is nearly always a direct relationship between low quality vs. better quality, sophistication and performance. If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive this!" The point is it’s better off starting with the basics. You’ve started out fine. Have fun. Don M. J.Kennedy Fisherto a Loomisto a Winstonto a W. Powellto a ??

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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If so, I’ve got to get me one of those. Dana

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

It’s not how expensive your rod is, it’s what you do with it that counts.  :-)      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).

Don’t do this!!! If you do you may end up in the same boat with the rest of us. A poor flyfisherman with alot of snazzy tackle and a wife who shakes her head with alarming frequency; as they say ignorance is bliss. Of course I never follow my own advice either. T.G. Mittler

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: If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have : realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota : Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic : transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have : said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, : and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive : this!" I understand the point ArtDrectr is making and for many, it probably works.  But not for me, and here is why.  Automobiles are sophisticated pieces of machinery and involve many parts that must work together. Significant design and engineering is required and many, many decisions made along the way to the market.   A graphite rod is very different.  It has a couple of numbers that characterize the performance and it is not difficult to change these numbers to make a rod.  For example, look at catalogs or talk to experienced fisherfolk… they will tell you a particular rod is soft or stiff, or at most describe 3 different types of flex.  A second factor is the weight, but that is about it.  That’s really all that matters.  (Well, durability too, but the guarantee should cover that.) As you get more experienced, you might move into a personal preference for a particular rod and if it matters much to you, spend the money.  For now, you done good with the cheap outfit.  As you gain experience, take the opportunity to try every rod you can, and see if you prefer other rods.  I suspect you will find rods that might be a bit less stiff than your current rod and you will definitely find rods that weigh less.  Pay attention to these things, but trust your judgement.  Your initial suspicions are right on. And by all means, send your kids to a good school before you spend your extra cash on expensive rods.  That is something that really makes a difference. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

        maybe not; but you’ll feel like it’s happenin when you lay out line with either one.         a. wayne harrison

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What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?

The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they will replace it.  I buy blanks and build my own rods, its a little cheaper, sometimes still get the guarantee,  put the same grip on all my rods (everythng must have the Fenwick style).  Its pretty easy once you get the hang of it, and its a good way to spend the off season. I’d fish the $60 outfit until the thing falls apart.  I’ve got more rods than you can swing a stick at and I always use the same two.  One of them is the first rod I built.  Good Luck. Patrick  

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: : What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get : me? : The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they : will replace it.   Redington offers a replacement guarantee for a little over $100 complete, $70 blank. The 5-6 wt. is a fine rod. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?   Hi Monte, One of the key things to keep in mind is that if you can’t tell the difference, it doesn’t make any difference to you. By the same token, junk is junk and a waste of money, *time* and *effort*, no matter how cheap it is.  A lot of folks start fly fishing buying the cheapest stuff they can find, slap it together, and try to make it work.  I did the same thing and spent 2 1/2 frustrating years trying to make a piece of junk work that just plane wouldn’t – it was bad equipment.

…while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Question:

Currently seeking flyfishing photos and stories for publication and CD Rom Database, and for use in Calanders. Some selection will be used for pen and ink drawings. Paying $5.00 to $500.00 For guidelines and terms send $1.00 P&H to Down-n-The Holler Press 207 W. Sugarloaf Heber Springs, Ar. 72543

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Currently seeking flyfishing photos and stories for publication and CD Rom Database, and for use in Calanders. Some selection will be used for pen and ink drawings. Paying $5.00 to $500.00 For guidelines and terms send $1.00 P&H to Down-n-The Holler Press 207 W. Sugarloaf Heber Springs, Ar. 72543

You expect me to send you a dollar for your guidelines? Not too much chance of that happening. I can understand the need to cover expenses if snail mail was the only way, but what’s wrong with e-mail? If you send ME a dollar I will send you a copy of my terms and conditions for use of my photographs!:-) — Mike Robinson

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Currently seeking flyfishing photos and stories for publication and CD Rom Database, and for use in Calanders. Some selection will be used for pen and ink drawings. Paying $5.00 to $500.00 For guidelines and terms send $1.00 P&H to Down-n-The Holler Press 207 W. Sugarloaf Heber Springs, Ar. 72543

The last time I heard of an offer like this was when someone called me to tell me I’d just won a "fabulous prize".  All I had to do to claim said prize was to give him my credit card number.  <click!  End of conversation. If you’re guaranteeing payment of a minimum of $5.00 for each submission received I’ll be happy to pay you a buck for your guidelines and terms, *plus* I can guarantee a whole flood of stuff will soon arrive upon your doorstep.  If you’ll just guarantee *that* in writing my dollar bill will soon be winging its way to you.  :-) However, since I doubt you’re guaranteeing payment for any and all submissions I think that asking people to pay for your editorial guidelines and payment rate schedule is unlikely to produce much in the way of useful material.  In my dealings with publishers I’ve never had anyone ask for payment for their guidelines.  Perhaps you should reexamine your policy. — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers! Remove ‘_spamless’ from reply address

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what a crock!!!

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Question:

I went with the Simms Gore-Tex Micro Fibers.   They’re expensive,  but super comfortable.   I also use them for backpacking with a pair of Tevas.

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I just bought the new Orvis No-Sweat waders and couldn’t be happier.  They are super comfortable and you really don’t sweat.  Very lightweight also, they just fold up and are carried in a little bag that they come with. You can’t beat the guarantee either.  One year and if your waders have a hole for any reason, Orvis will replace them free.  Nobody else offers this.

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Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

Just got Orvis stocking hippers and (so far) they’ve been ok (stay away from Fly Tech or other cheap brands).  I use Nike (or similar brand) Aquasocks which are light weight and very functional. hope this helps;  let me know if you hit agood spot in the Sierras–I go up often and am always looking for new places– aaron

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Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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After five years of heavy fising I have just retired the lightweight Orvis stocking foot waders.  With some care, ie look out for thorns, branches in the woods, I have gotten a good five years of use.           Also the canvas boots from LLBeans is quite good.  Cheaper than Orvis too.  They cost about $50.  The orvis waders and hippers wore very well.  I am still using the hippers.  Good luck, FHK

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

William, I am not Bob, am using his browser, he told me to say this because he is embaressed by my question, however,  I am new to this sport. and I want to purchase a good all around pair of waders. What do you recommend.  I see many many different brands.  I don’t want to spend a a lot, but don’t want to get wet either or buy a new pair next year when I learn more.  Your recommendations are appreciated!!!   Thanks Phyllis

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: Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight : waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need : waders that are very light yet durable. Red Ball Supplex waders- superlight and tough. And don’t forget a patch kit –mike

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Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

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Question:

I’m looking for info on a fly-fishing school for women.  My girlfriend wants to get  into the sport, but would feel more comfortable learning with and from other women.  Does anyone know of such a school in New England?

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Orvis runs separate schools for women (and also mixed). LL bean also has classes. Both are in New England. Also check with individual shops – many are now starting to offer classes for women. Ann

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Orvis runs separate schools for women (and also mixed). LL bean also has classes. Both are in New England. Also check with individual shops – many are now starting to offer classes for women. Ann

Also, Lori Ann Miller runs schools out west. Used to be out of Jackson, but now I think she is headquartered out of Idaho. She can be reached through the Orvis shop in Jackson, and her name and number are also in the Orvis Catalogue. She runs an outfit called "Reel Women." Christy Ball was in this business with her, but I don’t know if she still is. I am sure Christy still does the same thing, and probably can be reached through the same Orvis store in Jackson. I understand they are exceptional. Kevin Williams

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In Northern California, Clearwater House presents their "Mastering the Art of Fly Fishing" for women only.  I’ve taken a number of classes there, know the staff, and can’t recommend them any higher. If you’re interested, check out <http://www.ecenter.net/clearwater/, or you can call, 415.381.1173. Kim — —– Kim St. John Woodward         |   "When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. St. John Software             |    No regrets." http://www.EveningRise.com

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Hi-    I teach women-only classes to those who want them. Our school is in the town of Truckee about 20 minutes north of Lake Tahoe. We’re booked into October of this year but do keep an on-deck list to cover cancellations.    -Tight lines, Lisa —

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208 787 2657 Fax 208 787 2691 Gary Baja on the Fly

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Hi,   Great Basin College in Elko, Nevada will be running a lady’s school on July 26 and 27. For mor info, contact Pat Warren at (702) 753-2231 Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, NV

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Question:

Ron To get the best traction on a wet surface (a boat ramp) look for an all season tire with a high volume of tread surfaces.  This type of tire will have a lot of tiny cuts in the tread design.  When the tire is stressed pulling a load, this type of tread will flex and the edges of these cuts will grip the road surface.  Do Not consider the course off road tread design!  It has the worst hard surface traction. You should also be very light on the gas pedal.  A posi traction differential is also a big help if it is kept maintained and the clutches adjusted. Would you believe I pull a 3800 lb boat up steep boat ramps with a chev s-10 with no problems? Good Luck Wayne

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The next time this happens, try letting some air out of the rear tires – enough to increase the footprint somewhat. Be sure to air up again at the first opportunity. (Longrigger) writes: | Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. | I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone | and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. | | Longrigger

    Try pulling up the anchor on the boat…  (I couldn’t resist!)     No, really…  Tire pressure helps a ton, and the start of the pull is the most important part.  Once underway, roll into the throttle, but maintain traction…  (I think that all of the answers I have read here would help.)     …Sam

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in

Well iv been towing several different boats for many years and with different car’s here’s my $.01 worth. My last boat is a 3500 -4000 lbs boat and trailer, and iv towed it with my four cylinder turbo 5 speed (not many times) it did well no spinning. But now it has posi and very good traction tires on the rear. I now use a 87 jeep cherokee with a posi and BF comp TA’s works very well. Also on thing to remember is your toung weight. My toung weight is over 250+ lbs , thats why I went to the jeep. At first the jeep was a standard rear end and there was some slipping but since the posi the only time it skips is if I jump on the gas to hard. Does any one out there remember the rule of thumb on toung weight? It’s some % of your total weight should be your toung weight. And this also helps if you have to slow your boat down real fast on the hwy. bye

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower.

. . . . Ron Morgan

Since you have more than enough horsepower – if one rear wheel starts to spin, hold the parking brake release open and apply the parking brake.  If you apply hard enough, both wheels will receive power. You can also try stabbing at the parking brake if the engine does not have enough power. Not a sure fire thing.  But it is another trick to but in your bag. Terry Dobie 83 CJ7 Hailey, ID

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I use my Jeep Grand Cherokee to haul my boat.  I learned the hard way that you have to ease into the pull.  I use an awefull ramp in East Falmouth Cape Cod that is always covered in a thin layer of scum.  On one occasion, I was sort of hurried by other boaters waiting to get out of the water and I pulled to fast.  Before I knew it, my tires were spinning and I was moving backward.  OOOOPS!  Thank god I stopped on time.   I now make sure that my air pressure is a little lower (more surface space), and that I ease into the pull.  At this one particular ramp, I often throw handfulls of sand onto the algae to create a little traction.  I read a lot of others posts where sand is the enemy, but in this scenerio, it works well. Good luck David

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit. Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael

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*snip* months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit.

    You must have a non-posi rear end on your van…  The emergency brake trick worked on my ‘91 Dakota when semi-stuck in sand (I had a non-posi rearend).   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

After many years of enjoying the entertainment of watching people pull boats out at a wide variety of ramps throughout the western US, I know this: The initial pull to get a boat up out of the water is substantial, if you think of how hard it is to pull a small water skier up out of the water, imaging something with 30 times the weight and surface tension and bad hydrodynamics (the trailer…not the boat!) Many people think the best approach is to try to accelerate quickly to "get the damn thing going!", so they give their rig too much throttle. Once you break adhesion on a slick surface, you cannot pull a load equivalent to before you spun the wheels.  So if it spins, let off the throttle and let the wheels catch traction.  Then, try again with less acceleration.  Don’t think that spinning your wheels faster will get you up the ramp, ’cause it will only make it harder to get out. As other posts have said, lowering your tire pressure a little will help a lot.  But I have found on most ramps I can get my boat out by just driving a little more gently and not starting the spinning.  I find an auto trans works better, since you can accelerate from a standstill very slowly without having to dump the clutch.  But I have had several trucks with 4 speeds and a couple of 5 speeds.  You just gotta take it easy, and don’t try to pull the boat out fast.

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I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction.  Nowhere mentioning pressure or area.  Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? …        Grasping another opportunity to be wrong!

seems you caught this opportunity nicely That’s the description you find in physics 101, but it doesn’t work well in this case.  It works for flat surfaces in contact (with a few other assumptions).  When you add rough surfaces, compressible and deformable surfaces, and weak surface features (like sand on the ramp) that can withstand only a (smallish) maximum force before breaking away, then surface area and tread play an important role.

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I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction.  Nowhere mentioning pressure or area.  Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? pqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpq        Grasping another opportunity to be wrong! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

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Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip!

This isn’t sand on concrete (like a building site) but sand on a concrete boat ramp. All the ramps I’ve seen have been pretty slippery with weed and green gunk. If I used the same ramp every day, I’d scrub the thing clean and use Jeyes fluid or caustic soda on it occasionally to keep the gunk off. I know little about boat ramps, but I do know about silage clamps and slurry lagoons  (bleurgh !) – even for these noxious devices it’s worth doing a bit of scrubbing & hosing occasionally. Failing that, get as big a contact patch as you can. Soft rubber in small tread blocks (not great mud-plugger tread bars) and a low enough pressure to let the tyre flatten as much as is practical. — alt.flame – Making the world a safer place for postal workers.

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How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.

        Er, does that imply that your current tires are rather bald?         If so, ‘nuf said.         Relative weight of vehicle and tow is important. (If the wheels         on your trailer are bigger than the wheels on your tow vehicle,         you’re in trouble. Saw a Chicago flatlander trying to tow a large         boat with his Beamer. Didn’t make it.)         In your case, the truck should have enough towing weight, but         the question is about weight on the rear wheels.         o The angle of the ramp tends to transfer more weight to the           rear wheels.         o Tounge weight of the trailer is important.         I am hauling a smaller  14′ runabout (40 horse motor) with a         Ranger pickup in a similar situation. I have no problems.         o I have a stick, so can control things better.         o When I was towing with a station wagon and automatic, I would:            o Put the transmission in second            o Step on the brake            o Give it some gas.            o Use the break as a clutch, slowly easing up so that there              was no jerk in the initial pull. Frank R. Borger – Physicist     ___      "I think medical research would show Michael Reese – U of Chicago   |___       that being a Cubs fan lengthens Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _    your life. Or maybe it just _seems_ ph: 312-791-8075 fa: 791-2517       |_)

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

[...]         have you tried deflating the rear tyres a bit?  you’d get a larger         contact area.         andrew —            work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357     institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh                      http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

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Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.

There’s a lot coming into play. I find all terrains are significantly better than road tires.  I would assume mudders are even better.  My guess would be that the deep tread actually allows some of the edges of the tread to grip the ramp, cause there’s certainly lower area in contact.  Course that also means greater psi. Another factor is the softness of the rubber.  I would suspect that given two identical tires, the one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires.  I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.  No-one really complains about sand at a launch ramp. kevin

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Well, since you’re having trouble on boat ramps with your pickup you need more weight on the wheels.  If you can’t get buddies or bystanders to sit in the bed to get more weight on the rear wheels, try some of that water in 5 gallon pails (like paint pails).  If you’re in salt water you’ll want lids to keep the water out of the bed; in fresh water that’s not a problem.  10 x 5 gal x 8 lbs/gal is 400 lbs, enough to help quite a bit.  Nice thing about this is you don’t need to drag the extra weight around afterwards, and it’s likely to be available wherever you launch your boat .   — Bart Smaalders                  Solaris Performance     SunSoft http://playground.sun.com/~barts                    2550 Garcia Ave                                                         Mt View, CA 94043-1100

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he one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires.  I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.

Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip! Sand on ICE is ok but no sand is better on non-frozen concrete. George Bonser

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How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

Wide, sticky tires in my opinion. Though they spread the weight out more, there is more surface for gripping. It will reduce fuel economy somewhat though.  Also, I would worry more about hydroplaning on FRONT wheels where you could loose steering control. You might try putting some weight over that axle or letting 5lb of air out if you get stranded. George Bonser

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan

I stuck my truck in Galveston Bay this way.  My solution was to buy an old CJ5.  Now I drop into 4 wheel drive in low range.  And no problem. A cheaper alternative is to mount a trailer ball on the front which keeps those rear wheels way up out of the water. cfly — Charlie and Dorothy Fly Non-Trivial Solutions 2951 Marina Bay Dr. Suite 130-349 League City, TX  77573-2733

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan

Ron – When you buy your tires, make sure you get a better traction rating.  Talk to the tire dealer about traction ratings and wet pavement.  He may help you out tremendously. (Softer tires may wear quicker.) Other solutions to consider can make a big difference :         1. Put a couple hundred pounds of sand bags or blocks in the                 very back of the truck.  Spinning can be caused by not                 enough weight on the rear wheels.         2. Adjust your boat on the trailer to increase the tongue weight                 of the trailer (not to an extreme).  With the boat further                 on the trailer, you will get more weight on the truck tires.         3. Next truck, get limited slip differential to use both back wheels instead of one. Good luck and may all your ramps be dry ones, Joe

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Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. Longrigger

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Almost everybody I know has had the same problem with some combination of boats, ramps and tow vehicles. I have better traction on my jeep since I moved up on tire size. The tires are all weather radials. I can still spin all 4 tires if the ramp is mucky enough. Just having new tires will make a difference because the rubber will be softer and the thicker tread will be more compliant than on the older tires. My neighbor mounted a hitch ball on the front bumper of his 2WD truck which let him keep his rear tires high and dry. This can be particularly important at low tide, especially on ramps in estuaries that tend to silt up and/or grow moss. I carried a 20 foot heavy duty tow rope for several years untill the size of my tow vehicle caught up with my boat. I have also seen tongue extensions used for the same purpose. Many sailboaters use these because a keelboat has to be sent WAY back before it will float off the trailer. They either telescope out of the trailer tongue or are carried along side. Some of them even have their own wheels on them that will take much more abuse than a standard trailer jack wheel. My jeep has mushy rear springs and a short wheelbase, so I don’t run with much tongue weight. You can usually run much more tongue weight on a real truck like yours. 300 or 400 lbs of tongue weight, if you are not already running that much, could do a lot for your traction problems. Check with the truck manufacturer to see what they recommend.                                                 vaaler

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& Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 & pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The & boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, & of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. & Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off & other boats that were just pulled out. & My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these & conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, & the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, & very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being & stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that & boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an & inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what & kind of wear this produced on my transmission. You don’t say what the truck is, but does it have a limited slip differential (pozi-trac, sure-grip, etc)?  If not that would get you double the traction.  They can be added to many of the trucks out there. Hewlett Packard              (707) 794-4848 fax      (707) 538-3693 home 1212 Valley House Drive      http://web.sr.hp.com/~frankb/ Rohnert Park CA 94928-4999   KC6WUG, AMA, DoD #7566, NMLRA, I’m the NRA. U.S.A.              Dodge V8 Dakota, Yamaha IT175 XT350 YZF600R Seca 750

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

    Ron I had the same ‘problem’ with my old truck (‘91 Dakota with limited slip).  I would put up a slippery ramp and one tire would spin (no posi!)…  I helped the situation by putting all of the crap in the back of the truck that was in the boat, to put more weight over the rear tires (Coolers, skis, gas cans, clothes, etc.)  This made a difference.  I don’t know what type of truck you have, or if it has posi, but with my NEW ‘95 Dakota w/posi + 5 speed I am able to pull that same boat, with all of the crap still in the boat, with no problem out of the same ramp.  I do run a lower tire pressure, as this tends to put more rubber onto the ground, giving more traction.  You might try that too…(it wouldn’t hurt).       BTW  If you didn’t already know this, when pulling out of a boat ramp with a automatic trans, and you work pretty hard to pull that boat up (any pull should be considered) the ramp, make sure you don’t pull up to the staging area and shut off your truck while securing you boat. All of the heat generated by the pull will not leave the transmission (as it didn’t get cooled yet by the transmission cooler)…and can cause a lot of wear/tear/damage to your transmission.  My bone-head friend went through 2 transmissions over 2 seasons going to the Colorado river with his boat.  Every time he got it out of the water he would shut down, secure the boat, then take off…with an air temp of about 110 F. that truck would almost boil the transmission fluid!!!  He learned.     I got a 5 speed ( no cooler needed!), and it works a lot better than a automatic (at least for me it does).     My $.02     ..Sam

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

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