Question:

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-)

I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.

I was hoping you’d pipe in here.  It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that.  That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks.  You da man. — Jim

Response:

7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.

I can attest to that.  When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.

Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) Matt

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.

Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day.  Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you

take, you will die. Snicker.  Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor.   Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture.   If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC.  Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position.  Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME.  One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial?  How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.  The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret.  If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option.  I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt

Response:

What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?

I suppose it depends where you are.  If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse.  In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?

Are you flying a helicopter?  Beware of the traffic behind you.

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.

The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death.  Serious stuff.

Response:

Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!

Consider two kinds of lost.  One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such.  For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac.  The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking.  I also carry a handheld radio.  With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation.  I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold.  Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic.  In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast.  I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach.  It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it.  The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA.  If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC.  Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost.  Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind.  If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes.  If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that.  I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC.  I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn.  When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good.  In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one.  Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine.  When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion.  Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying.  If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help.  On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"?  A mile off course?  A hundred miles?  You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right?  :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain.   If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost.  If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain.  Where is the VMC?  Where is the low terrain?  Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean.  If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast.   Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that.  A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating.  But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. –Ron

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So long as my  navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

The Longest Silence, Thomas McGuane I’ve only started the book, but I am already humbled by McGuane’s story-telling in this book.

I enthusiastically agree.  Even though most of the material in this book is recycled from "An Outside Chance, 2nd Ed." which was recycled from the first edition, which was a compilation of essays published in "Sports Illustrated" (in their glory days in the 70’s) and elsewhere, this book is a must-read.  McGuane has a gift for writing like nobody else I know. I wish I had been born 15 years earlier, and had been in Key West in the early 70’s, when it was haunted by McGuane, Russell Chatham, Jim Harrison, and Jimmy Buffett.  Don’t even want to go there now, I fear it would be a horrible disappointment. Kevin

Response:

The Longest Silence, Thomas McGuane I’ve only started the book, but I am already humbled by McGuane’s story-telling in this book.   No offense to you guys (many of whom write good <g), but McGuane’s narrative takes me right into the places and experiences in his fishing life, be it fly fishing for trout or spin casting for stripers in the surf.   If the rest of the book is as pleasant as the first part, I just may have to buy a copy.   Definitely a good read.

This is the finest fishing-related book I’ve read in many years. Maybe ever. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

The Longest Silence, Thomas McGuane I’ve only started the book, but I am already humbled by McGuane’s story-telling in this book.   No offense to you guys (many of whom write good <g), but McGuane’s narrative takes me right into the places and experiences in his fishing life, be it fly fishing for trout or spin casting for stripers in the surf.   If the rest of the book is as pleasant as the first part, I just may have to buy a copy.   Definitely a good read. Joe F. Ordinarily I’d finish a book before commenting, but I’m overdue for a decent on-topic post, and I’m really liking this book.

joe, that book is one of my favorites… it’s been awhile, mebbe i’m due for a re-read. walt

Response:

Ordinarily I’d finish a book before commenting, but I’m overdue for a decent on-topic post

    do us all a favor.  send a copy to forty. wayno

Response:

The Longest Silence, Thomas McGuane I’ve only started the book, but I am already humbled by McGuane’s story-telling in this book.   No offense to you guys (many of whom write good <g), but McGuane’s narrative takes me right into the places and experiences in his fishing life, be it fly fishing for trout or spin casting for stripers in the surf.   If the rest of the book is as pleasant as the first part, I just may have to buy a copy.   Definitely a good read.

It just keeps getting better as your read through it. There’s a piece on permit fishing toward the end that is possibly the best thing that I have read on fly fishing. Peter G. Aitken

Response:

The Longest Silence, Thomas McGuane I’ve only started the book, but I am already humbled by McGuane’s story-telling in this book.   No offense to you guys (many of whom write good <g), but McGuane’s narrative takes me right into the places and experiences in his fishing life, be it fly fishing for trout or spin casting for stripers in the surf.   If the rest of the book is as pleasant as the first part, I just may have to buy a copy.   Definitely a good read. Joe F. Ordinarily I’d finish a book before commenting, but I’m overdue for a decent on-topic post, and I’m really liking this book.

Response:

Question:

Wayne Knight: (envious story snipped) Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO

Here we are sittin’ out a snow storm and you’re fishing!  ’Tain’t fair.  It was a good day, Wayne, just to be out there. Dave L.

Response:

Ok, Forty you asked for it….

Thanks, big guy. Always nice to read of a friends fishin’ trip while stuck up here in the snow. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ok, Forty you asked for it…. Thanks, big guy. Always nice to read of a friends fishin’ trip while stuck up here in the snow.

FWIW, they are calling for snow here tonight and tomorrow. Sure hope it does not impede my flight home to Geneva on Friday. Hopefully tho, my daughter will have the driveway and sidewalks shoveled for me by the time I do get home. — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

Response:

[trip snip] Thank you Kerry for a great time, and if any of you out there ever decide to visit SW Missouri for a little fishing, be sure and drop Kerry an email. Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

Y’know that’s really cruel to post such a report to the snowbound.  :)

Response:

Ok, Forty you asked for it…. I drove out of Kansas to Aurora Mo this past weekend where I met up with Kerry Evans, a contributor to the board, and a long time resident of SW Missouri. Crane is a creek I’ve been hearing about for about a year and wanted to try, plus it is about the closest real trout water to Halstead KS, being only 260 miles away, and whatever it’s faults as a fishing destination, eastern Kansas has some damn good roads <g. All things being equal, I would have prefered to let the weather change a little more but not having seen a trout since October I was going through withdrawal symptons. After meeting for breakfast, I followed Kerry to the creek. Yup the water is low, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelly low, and it was is gin clear. The only other time I’ve seen water this clear has been in WI spring creeks in the fall, never in the winter. Kerry did his best to put me over fish, even though the water was low, there were enough deep pools to support fish. Funny thing with a couple of exceptions we would fish the pools and see nothing and then cross the stream in 6" water and see fish scattering away from us…..There was this one pool which we saw several fish, but just could not get them to take our offerings. We did find some rising fish and we did our best to put them down Being winter, while there was some insect activity on the surface, the bugs were small. A size 20 Griffith’s Gnat might as well been a #10 Green Drake, these bugs were that small. Yours truly at the start was casting, if you want to call it that, as if I was just learning what a fly rod was having forgot my backcast, drink, forward cast routine…..and I probably had a false since of security, it being winter and all was not being too careful with the brush around the stream. I admit, I was cocky, I had never been stumped in Missouri before and really did not want to stealth my overweight out of shape self. Kerry was great, he is a fine fly fisher, a super guy, and to boot, he builds a rather nice rod too. But as sometimes happen, he too could not connect fly with fish. Finally, about halfway down the section we were fishing, we came upon a pool with two risers, Kerry being the gracious host he was, offered the pool to me. I figured screw it on the small stuff and tied on a favorite Michigan pattern, a size 14 parachute Robert’s Drake figuring that maybe the bow’s wanted a real meal for a change. After deteriming the first riser was a little one, I did my best Fortenberry imitation and slid along the pool side and side armed cast the drake under a tree branch to the other riser…..I was rewarded with a healthy bow which turned out to be the only fish of the day. Though the fishing was tough, and frankly had we been a little more careful, we might have been better rewarded, but we only saw one other fisherman and last we checked, he had not been successful. The creek needs some water but I will be back and will be better prepared next time. I bet in spring and fall colors the stream scenery is just dynamite. And Kerry told me about some other streams which have not been written about, they will stay a secret but I will be visiting them too! Thank you Kerry for a great time, and if any of you out there ever decide to visit SW Missouri for a little fishing, be sure and drop Kerry an email. Oh yea, I’ve still never been stumped in MO — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

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Question:

Hey Bill,     Do you ever fish for them with Dries Skated on the surface? That’s a popular tactic up here on many rivers for their bigger brothers so I was just curious how well they took a skated fly. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, September is one of the top months for these small trout sized steelhead. They are 16" and bigger with fish over 20".  Mat Johnson of Kiene’s Fly Shop caught a 27" fish this week. This is the best return we have had in 3 or 4 years. I would try from Goethe Park  downstream to Pardise Beach. Morning and evening is best when the light level in lower.  We use #5, #6 or #7 weight outfits with floating lines in the AM and PM so we can swing wet flies down and accoss to these hot fish. In the day time you can use sinktip lines or indicator fish in the riffles. We use a 9′ 3x leader. We like #8, 10 and 12 wet flies. Some popular patterns are any small steelhead pattern like the Brindle Bug, Assassin, Renegade, Coachman, Burlap and Silver Hilton.  Many trout nymphs or soft hackle wets work well like the This same fishing is happening on the lower Klamath and lower Rogue Rivers as I type this info.

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Hi All, September is one of the top months for these small trout sized steelhead. They are 16" and bigger with fish over 20".  Mat Johnson of Kiene’s Fly Shop caught a 27" fish this week. This is the best return we have had in 3 or 4 years. I would try from Goethe Park  downstream to Pardise Beach. Morning and evening is best when the light level in lower.  We use #5, #6 or #7 weight outfits with floating lines in the AM and PM so we can swing wet flies down and accoss to these hot fish. In the day time you can use sinktip lines or indicator fish in the riffles. We use a 9′ 3x leader. We like #8, 10 and 12 wet flies. Some popular patterns are any small steelhead pattern like the Brindle Bug, Assassin, Renegade, Coachman, Burlap and Silver Hilton.  Many trout nymphs or soft hackle wets work well like the This same fishing is happening on the lower Klamath and lower Rogue Rivers as I type this info.

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Question:

shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here. Our thoughts will be with you John… Big Dale

        john:  we are more than 200 miles inland, and hugo (1989) damn near destroyed our old home place.         please consider getting the hell out of there. wayno

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      john:  we are more than 200 miles inland, and hugo (1989) damn near destroyed our old home place.       please consider getting the hell out of there. wayno

Wayno and John, My pal Phil just pointed me in the direction of this thread, and I sincerely hope that Floyd does you no harm. The pictures we received showed Floyd as large as Florida – frightening! Hope you all keep well. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

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The pictures we received showed Floyd as large as Florida – frightening!

I’d heard it was the size of Texas which, as you probably know, is bigger than planet earth<g. — Charlie…

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The pictures we received showed Floyd as large as Florida – frightening! I’d heard it was the size of Texas which, as you probably know, is bigger than planet earth<g.

Joking aside, John and wayno are worryingly quiet… — Phil Jones

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Joking aside, John and wayno are worryingly quiet…

Floyd pretty much missed John, nothing could hurt Wayno short of a disaster at the Balvenie distillery (Greensboro is well inland), we’ve heard from Jeff under curfew, I’m wondering about Indian Joe in Wilmington. Anybody heard ? — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 1

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Joking aside, John and wayno are worryingly quiet…

True, and I hope for the best. I just heard from a friend in Savannah who said she drove all the way to Tennessee to find a room but there was no damage when she got back. Pretty scary. — Charlie…

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Excuse me…  I thought Balvenie was a single malt, a proper scotch… Are you saying that it’s fabricated in Greensboro..?

LOL ! No sir, I would never insult a proper single malt. I am merely saying that a healthy percentage of the world’s Balvenie production is CONSUMED in Greensboro, North Carolina. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 2 – Tar Heels 1

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nothing could hurt Wayno short of a disaster at the Balvenie distillery (Greensboro is well inland)

Excuse me…  I thought Balvenie was a single malt, a proper scotch… Are you saying that it’s fabricated in Greensboro..? — Phil Jones

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Floyd, now a tropical storm, blew through Maine last night on it’s way to the Maratimes. Heavy rains, some winds, nothing serious really, though the power did go out. I woke up about 2 am when the eye passed over, the silence was deafening. I hope eveyone in it’s path came through safely and you fishing is good for the rest of the year. I’m off to the West Branch of the Penobscot this weekend for a week of salmon fishing. Flyfish

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Floyd, now a tropical storm, blew through Maine last night on it’s way to the Maratimes. Heavy rains, some winds, nothing serious really, though the power did go out. I woke up about 2 am when the eye passed over, the silence was deafening. I hope eveyone in it’s path came through safely and you fishing is good for the rest of the year.

We had an entertaining afternoon here as well, Dave. Plenty of wind though no damage in my area (central MA) and a boatload of rain. Not much more than an inconvenience, really, though I suspect the coastal denizens had a tougher go of it. I’m off to the West Branch of the Penobscot this weekend for a week of salmon fishing.

Good luck to ya! Hope the high water gets the fish moving your way. /daytripper

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floyd’s downpour on eastern nc has really whipped our ass.  we had 15 inches of rain in about 24 hours. many of the towns east of raleigh along rivers and creeks are suffering substantial flooding and water damage.  Greenville has been cut off in all directions by washed out and flooded roads in and around the area.  The Tar River is rising and expected to crest at about 26 feet above normal over the next 2 days. Some folks are being evacuated from the roofs of their homes, others are stranded. The sole remaining power substation serving the city and county (app. 55,000 folks) is in jeopardy of being shut down by the flooding, and if it goes officials fear it will be several days before the current is reestablished.   jeff   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Floyd, now a tropical storm, blew through Maine last night on it’s way to the Maratimes. Heavy rains, some winds, nothing serious really, though the power did go out. I woke up about 2 am when the eye passed over, the silence was deafening. I hope eveyone in it’s path came through safely and you fishing is good for the rest of the year. I’m off to the West Branch of the Penobscot this weekend for a week of salmon fishing. Flyfish

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina Thanks, the daughter and two grandkids will probably go to a shelter. I’v got two dogs and two cats which we’ve considered loading in the camper and heading to higher ground but I think I’ll just sit tight with them and weather it out. My wife will make up her mind when the time comes but shes a fiesty ol broad and will probably stay too. I checked the generator and it fired right off so we’ll have power for the pump and icebox. We are inland a bit, bout 50 miles from the cape so shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.                                                           John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl. John, Thanks for the invite, but unfortunately I won’t be able to make it down for this monster. Hang in there bud and do me a favor, if that thing turns inland get the hell out of there. I’ve been through a few to many of those bastards…. From the looks of things, it looks like it’s gonna ride up along the coast and head our way….but don’t trust that river…it can get real big and nasty. Tight windows my friend, Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

If anybody has watched the news Fl. was treated kindly by floyd. We’re just fine. been cleaning up some limbs and such, nothing big. We did get some high winds(bout 40mph) but nothing spectacular and only 3" of rain. I’ve been watching the news and it seems Fl.’s good fortune was bad fortune for those in the northern climes. Luckily by the time it got there it had weakened significatly. With the advantage of 20/20 hindsighte, it seems some news casters had derogatory statements about those who chose to leave. This was a terribly big and vicious storm as it churned up and just off shore and I hope those statements will not influence those of lesser expierience should the choice again need be made.                                                        John Popp                                                    in Sanford Fl.

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With the advantage of 20/20 hindsighte, it seems some news casters had derogatory statements about those who chose to leave. This was a terribly big and vicious storm as it churned up and just off shore and I hope those statements will not influence those of lesser expierience should the choice again need be made.

Good advice as usual John. Glad you made it through OK, I have a friend that lives near Savannah who evacuated and, though there was no damage when she got back, I hope she’d leave again under the same conditions. I’ve been in (literally) a couple of tornadoes, but hurricanes scare me bad. — Charlie…

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hurricanes scare me bad. — Charlie…

        i talked to pamlico jim this morning, and they are in a hell of a mess in greenville, nc.  no power, no stores open, conditions may not improve for days; the tar river hasn’t even crested yet.  there is only one road open to the outside world. wayno

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…  there is only one road open to the outside world. wayno

…and i took it to watauga county this morning!!! jeff

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nah…a mere 15 inches or so in greenville, nc, but not a drop at elk creek…very bizarre to drive out of greenville where the river is about 27 feet above flood stage to elk creek – it’s even lower than when you guys were here, and crystal clear.  the smallies are beckoning!! jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …and i took it to watauga county this morning!!! Did you get any rain up there? We didn’t get a drop down here. — Charlie…

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Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina

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Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina

Thanks, the daughter and two grandkids will probably go to a shelter. I’v got two dogs and two cats which we’ve considered loading in the camper and heading to higher ground but I think I’ll just sit tight with them and weather it out. My wife will make up her mind when the time comes but shes a fiesty ol broad and will probably stay too. I checked the generator and it fired right off so we’ll have power for the pump and icebox. We are inland a bit, bout 50 miles from the cape so shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.                                                           John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl.

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shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.

Our thoughts will be with you John… Big Dale

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last report I saw rated Floyd’s force at 155mph, one mph under classification as a Force 5 hurricane.  I understand it is expected to come aground somewhere late tomorrow. My sincere best wishes to those of you, you families and your businesses in the wake of this pending monster.  I was in Charleston in 1992 4 days after Andrew hit and saw the devastation this type of a storm can do and I hope you are all prepared and safe. Larry Medina Thanks, the daughter and two grandkids will probably go to a shelter. I’v got two dogs and two cats which we’ve considered loading in the camper and heading to higher ground but I think I’ll just sit tight with them and weather it out. My wife will make up her mind when the time comes but shes a fiesty ol broad and will probably stay too. I checked the generator and it fired right off so we’ll have power for the pump and icebox. We are inland a bit, bout 50 miles from the cape so shouldn’t be too rough less the st.johns rises. Walt if you are reading this, wish you were here.                                                           John Popp                                                          in Sanford Fl.

John, Thanks for the invite, but unfortunately I won’t be able to make it down for this monster. Hang in there bud and do me a favor, if that thing turns inland get the hell out of there. I’ve been through a few to many of those bastards…. From the looks of things, it looks like it’s gonna ride up along the coast and head our way….but don’t trust that river…it can get real big and nasty. Tight windows my friend, Walt — Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

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Question:

Call the Blacktail Ranch near Wolf Creek Montana.

Or Dick Klick up at Augusta.  Don’t remember the name of the place, but it’s up against the Bob.  You’ll not find more beautiful country, the cutts in the Sun river are multitudinous and "unsophisticated," horse back and hot springs are at your disposal and the further you’re willing to go into the wilderness, the bigger and better the fish.  Plus you won’t have the hordes you’ll have down in the Madison/Paradise Vallies.

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Call the Blacktail Ranch near Wolf Creek Montana.  It is a working cattle ranch with excellent fishing in a small stream and in a series of beaver ponds with big trout.  You can choose a camping option that is very reasonable.  If you want to fish big water you can go to the Missouri and hire a guide to fish down from Hardy Bridge.  It is my favorite part of Montana. Ted Lannan

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Here’s a wide open question: I have the opportunity to go fishing with two old friends in July or August pretty much anywhere out West.  I have fly fished for quite a while but my two friends have never done it at all.  I have the idea that a lodge with guides etc which has some "easy" water nearby (a casting pond with trout) as well as some more challenging rivers nearby would be ideal. We’re in good shape and can hike a bit I have looked through Sports Afield’s Guide to Fishing Lodges, the Orvis catalog, done web searched etc and I am totally bewildered by the sheer number of lodges. I am interested in comments/recommendations on lodges – as well as any other ideas (e.g. float trips).  Our budget is not huge, but we can spend some money this one time. Thanks for the help, Patrick Keith-Hynes

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Question:

Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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got skunked. I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Love you Bill!!!!! You probably have more experience with both guides and lawyers, but I find it easies to find a competeant guide than it is a competeant lawyer. Care to comment? Big Dale

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LL Bean still has their warranty policy in place… Lifetime satisfaction guarantee If you break the rod on a trip, they’ll overnight fedex a replacement anwhere in the country.  You return the broken rod at your convenience. All free. Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault.  I remember that I took care of my rod, because if I broke it, I was  out X number of dollars.  I remember a time when you were responsible for your actions.  I remember when I didn’t do well in school, it was my fault, not society.  I remember breaking my arm in junior high school and not suing the school.  I remember a time when if you broke something, you stood up like a man and admitted it…. It’s amazing how rods are now "accidently" broken as opposed to how many were broken BEFORE the new warranties. Just my 2 cents. Flyguy Bill Kiene wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault

Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod. Some people probably won’t buy a super-premium rod because they’re afraid they’ll break it.  So by offering a no-fault warranty, the manufacturers get more folks to buy the highly profitable rods.  Really, it makes a lot of sense given the disparity between direct and retail costs. Especially now that the rod vendors are charging for warranty repairs (and offsetting most of the cost anyway), they’re laughing all the way to the bank. Michael

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod.

that very possibly true – check out George Gherke’s costing for his Bastard Rod – the fitting alone exceed $50. but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit. For most products of this nature the mark up on the rod( the difference between the retail price and the wholessale price the retailer pays) is about 1/3 of the price you pay. So for a $650 rod the manufacturer may gets $425 in revenue. Ralph H

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but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit.

Absolutely true, but it’s also my point. You can make the argument that it’s reasonable for a fly mfg. to charge $650 for a rod.  (Hey, no one’s forcing me to buy the damn thing, and the market also supplies pretty good rods at every price point from $19 up).  Lord knows, a lot of vendors with fancy names and fancy rods are only marginally profitable.  But the time to make the profit is on the initial sale and, hopefully,  the next sale a few years later from a satisfied customer upgrading to the same vendor’s latest and greatest. Repairs are a time when the vendor can make or break customer loyalty.  It’s simply not worth getting into a debate with the customer about who’s fault it was.  <<Was the ferrule defective, or had it loosened up on me while fishing?  Is it the fault of the vendor’s poor tolerances that the rod loosened up and then broke at the ferrule, or my sloppy fishing habits, for not checking them every once in a while?  It just makes good sense for the manufacturer to fix a rod at it’s marginal cost, and not mark it up.  Even if it truly is the customer’s fault.  Hey, we all make mistakes. Then you can argue whether, if the marginal cost is so low (say $20 for a section of a $600 rod), does it make sense to bill for it, or do you get even more than $20 worth of loyalty and repeat business to do it for "free". I don’t see this as a biggee…it’s close enough to $0 that I wouldn’t care if I felt it were my fault.  Of course, if it were truly a mfg. flaw, I’d be pissed off about paying even $20, much less $50. Michael

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Question:

I didn’t even mention her cloaca.

But you thought about it.  You have a one-track mind. azure

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I don’t think anyone "grilled" Julia for anything – she ASKED for what people here thought. The only vaguely rude post I saw at all was Eric Cordian’s.

What did you find rude about my post?   I didn’t even mention her cloaca. — Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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Well I have been drinking more water lately, but even without it I’d still think this situation could have been handled better.  It seems to have calmed down though, despite this attempt of yours to get me going again. Rats.  It didn’t work.

LOLOLOL!  And it’s a good thing too…posting cuts into my bathroom time! You’ve no idea the strain a mere 2 gallons of water puts on my poor abused innards! azure

Ravenna, having a much needed laugh —       Kristen Kohlbecker    And I would choose to be with you                             But you can make decisions too       A Tyger and a Lady    And you can have this heart to break

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x-no-archive: yes Holy Macheral andy, that was easy!  :-)         – Panther (glad to see ole andy back)

Groannnnnnnn Bwahahahahahhaaaaa /tigerbunny rolls on the floor, drowning in tears of laughter I thought I was gonna bust a gut laughing over the image of averti as Foghorn Leghorn in green suede shoes ("That’s a JOKE, son") oh, you people really are too much! tigerbunny

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Yoah heah! yoah heah!  Let the bells ring out and the banners fly! Its too good to be true! but yoah heah!!!! Hey Tigerbunny! great to see your smiling face! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Holy Macheral andy, that was easy!  :-)         – Panther (glad to see ole andy back) Groannnnnnnn Bwahahahahahhaaaaa /tigerbunny rolls on the floor, drowning in tears of laughter I thought I was gonna bust a gut laughing over the image of averti as Foghorn Leghorn in green suede shoes ("That’s a JOKE, son") oh, you people really are too much! tigerbunny

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Well I have been drinking more water lately, but even without it I’d still think this situation could have been handled better.  It seems to have calmed down though, despite this attempt of yours to get me going again.

Rats.  It didn’t work. azure

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x-no archive: yes Hi Panther; Ok I’m back, with poster’s remorse. Moving on, to stage 3(?) Flame yourself. I feel Averti is giving "andy" far too much credit, 51%? Well perhaps that is true 49% of the time, on a very good day. And just who the hell does this "andy" think he is, anyway? All that fuss’n and a stomp’n. Snagged in the back I lack an attack. Well, that nasty remose, is over now. andy (Trout Mac Finnagan) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Come back lil Sheba.

Question:

    My family are planning to camping in Angle Fire, NM.  I been fly-fishing in Red River but never been in Angle Fire.  Anyone have comments or suggestion. please Email me.  Thanks! Happy fly-fishing! —    _/     _/  _/  _/        _/ _/    AlphaPager (972) 597-0457  _/   _/    _/  _/        _/  _/     TI-MSGID: RKS2 _/     _/  _/    _/_/_/  _/    _/www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9916

Response:

    My family are planning to camping in Angle Fire, NM.  I been fly-fishing in Red River but never been in Angle Fire.  Anyone have comments or suggestion. please Email me.  Thanks!

 Rick When we’re  in angel fire we generally fish the cimmaron, downstream from eagles nest lake (about a 30 minute drive) or coyote creek down the mountain toward Mora (new mexico 3 i think) at the coyote creek state park  (30 minutes or so also).  good luck james mahan Please include J Mahan in subject line of email replies.

Response:

Question:

writes:  Can someone give me a guide to estimating the weight of trout in  the 12-24 inch range. Just a guestimate chart would do. I know  there are a lot of variables. Many thanks.  –  Scott Branyan  Rogers, AR

<grin NZ limits restrict us to fish over 13" down here, so I ain’t gonna be of much assistance I am afraid. One of the more important factors down here is taken by a Condition factor variable, taking into account weight, length and girth. So most *Serious* kiwi anglers don’t like to take those fish below anything less than say 4-5lb. We have an extremely active conservation movement in most areas considered "Trophy" catchments, whereby one can donate the fish for hatchery purposes when exceeding Condition factors of in excess 80-85. This is achieved by way of permanent nets suspended below rubber tyre tubes anchored near the more popular spots, that or the many hatchery traps found a short distance upstream from a lake outlet. The movement towards catch and release in NZ has found great support in recent years, with only the minimum being taken for domestic purposes. You may be interested to know, that it is illegal to sell, buy or market Trout in NZ, other than by specific virtue of the Internal Affairs department, mainly for Tourism purposes. Back to your question however, ummmmm … no sorry <grin Just thought you might be interested in a different perspective . <smile. Regards .. Tim.D Wellington, New Zealand.

Response:

 <<Can someone give me a guide to estimating the weight of trout in the 12-24 inch range. … Hi Scott- I have a chart that will figure the weight of any trout you’ll ever catch. *it’s free for the asking* On the back it has a lot of equally cool info. We include it in our student handouts…. *don’t be bashful, I encourage you to use them (rather than weigh the fish till its dead)*

I just guesstimate the length of the fish (relative to a mark on the rod) then (length in inches)cubed/1870 ~ pounds…. crude but works ok for typical stream/river trout this puts 12" at 1lb and 24inch at 7lb (perhaps high unless the fishery is rich and the trout are heavy- )    If you have a club and want a bunch just ask! (don’t worry. it’s free and we won’t put you on our perpetual mailing list of fly fishing junk mail unless you specifically request it!)    Tight Lines, Ralph —

our page at http://www.insideout.com/current/s_fish.htm) BTW Ralph, I really like your book! Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kumlien) writes: I have been told by fisheries biologists that the following formula works well for computing weight of any species of fish.  I once met British Columbia steelhead biologist who told me they use this formula for weight estimates for biological work.  I have tried it a lot, and it seems pretty reliable.  Here it is.  Lenght x (girth squared) divided by 800=weight in pounds.  i.e.  20 inch trout with 10 inch girth would figure out to 2000/ 800=2 1/2 pounds and so on.  Try it out.  Dave That’s great for streamside, but when hearing about it from the angler, you must reduce it .167823% for each oz. of alcohol consumed prior to the recounting of the catch.

And what about a nice formula to calculate with the Metric system: Meter, Kilo etc. (so it becomes a global tool). == The Flyfishing Dutchman ==

Response:

<<Can someone give me a guide to estimating the weight of trout in the 12-24 inch range. Just a guestimate chart would do. I know there are a lot of variables. Many thanks.

Hi Scott- I have a chart that will figure the weight of any trout you’ll ever catch. *it’s free for the asking* On the back it has a lot of equally cool info. We include it in our student handouts.    If you (or anyone else out there) would like one, send me your snail mail address and I’ll be happy to get it to you. *don’t be bashful, I encourage you to use them (rather than weigh the fish till its dead)*    If you have a club and want a bunch just ask! (don’t worry. it’s free and we won’t put you on our perpetual mailing list of fly fishing junk mail unless you specifically request it!)    Tight Lines, Ralph —

Response:

Kumlien) writes: I have been told by fisheries biologists that the following formula works well for computing weight of any species of fish.  I once met British Columbia steelhead biologist who told me they use this formula for weight estimates for biological work.  I have tried it a lot, and it seems pretty reliable.  Here it is.  Lenght x (girth squared) divided by 800=weight in pounds.  i.e.  20 inch trout with 10 inch girth would figure out to 2000/ 800=2 1/2 pounds and so on.  Try it out.  Dave

That’s great for streamside, but when hearing about it from the angler, you must reduce it .167823% for each oz. of alcohol consumed prior to the recounting of the catch.

Response:

Can someone give me a guide to estimating the weight of trout in the 12-24 inch range. Just a guestimate chart would do. I know there are a lot of variables. Many thanks. — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

Response:

I have been told by fisheries biologists that the following formula works well for computing weight of any species of fish.  I once met British Columbia steelhead biologist who told me they use this formula for weight estimates for biological work.  I have tried it a lot, and it seems pretty reliable.  Here it is.  Lenght x (girth squared) divided by 800=weight in pounds.  i.e.  20 inch trout with 10 inch girth would figure out to 2000/ 800=2 1/2 pounds and so on.  Try it out.  Dave

Response: