Question:

   wtf is this?  talking in tongues?  tell your ol buddy about "the slip strike", would you? yfitons wayno (never afraid to show one’’s ignorance)

Give me a sec. gotta pull up a cushion and pour a wee dram . . . there OK, you’re stripping in a streamer and BAM, a big hit.  The tendency will be to do the South Sauty heave and yank the fly about five or ten feet away from the fish.  Instead, keep the rod tip low and just give a sharp, short yank on the line.  If you don’t feel the fish, let everything go, count to three then put in a few short strips.  Odds are, he’ll turn and take it as soon as you start to strip a second time.  The fish isn’t aiming to swallow the fly on the first hit – it’s a killing strike, where he’ll turn and then leisurely swallow the dead minnow head first.  Your second set of strips triggers the "it’s not dead and it’s escaping" response – the fly is nailed for sure on the second hit.  Executed properly, I seldom fail to get a solid hookup on the second strike. I lost two nice browns at the Blue Rock Hole – both were probably lightly hooked on the original strike as I had forgotten my own advice and did the old, "let’s fling it in the bush" strike.  If these fish had executed a stun strike, I would’ve hooked them on the outside of the mouth and lost them on the turn.  A slip strike usually doesn’t result in such a hookup – it’s slower, lighter, and moves the fly only a few inches.  If the fly is on the outside of the fish’s mouth, the odds of an external hookup are very low.  The fish isn’t spooked by the strike, rather, it’s aggression is probably heightened by the "struggles" of its "prey." Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

OK, you’re stripping in a streamer and BAM, a big hit.  The tendency will be to do the South Sauty heave and yank the fly about five or ten feet away from the fish.  Instead, keep the rod tip low and just give a sharp, short yank on the line.  If you don’t feel the fish, let everything go, count to three then put in a few short strips.  Odds are, he’ll turn and take it as soon as you start to strip a second time.  The fish isn’t aiming to swallow the fly on the first hit – it’s a killing strike, where he’ll turn and then leisurely swallow the dead minnow head first.

        good lord.  this requires far too much patience than i have to give. yfitons wayno  (somebody hand me that royal wulff…)

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[a high and dirty snip] About high water and fish behaviour, my favourite high water story comes from one of the local fly shop owners.  When the Grand blew out a few years ago, he went up to check it out and found a flooded intersection with trout rising in the middle of it. I got to watch Peter use one of his streamer techniques for a very short time at the Penn’s Clave (wish that conditions had been a bit better so I could have watched some more. I also missed seeing him work a spey rod) Anyway, my half assed imitation of this technique has been working reasonably well. (Peter, what sink rate line were you using at the Blue Rock Hole? I’m fishing similar depth and current flows and don’t feel I’m getting down deep enough.) However, I continue to get nothing but short strikes on Peter’s short shanked streamers. When I put on a standard length streamer, I’m hooking a decent percentage of the fish.

I was using a type 6 line.  When I make the cross-current cast, I follow the line with the rod tip as far as I can to keep tension off the line.  During that portion of the drift, the line has the opportunity to sink.  In really fast water, I’ll add an upstream mend as the line hits the water.  Even a type 6 won’t get down if you have tension on the line right away. About the flies, it could be differences in the way the fish hit the fly.  Grand River browns hit the head of the fly to stun it.  I was getting a lot brief hookups and some foul hookups on the opposite side of the fish’s face with long shanked hooks.   However, if you’re getting hookups in the front of the lower jaw, the fish are tail chasing the prey.  If you’re getting hookups but your landing rate is poor, then you’re in the same situation as me.  When you feel a strike on a short shank fly, strip-strike, don’t lift the rod tip.  If you don’t feel the fish after, let everything go so the fly flows drag free then tighten up and put in a couple of strips.  Odds are you’ll get a hookup on the second strike.   Flows are even higher today, still reasonable visibility so? Willi

Keep at it, sounds like you’re doing great as is. BTW, keep up the TRs as, thanks to my move and the kids, I probably won’t hit the water again till mid-late August.  Gotta live vicariously. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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About the flies, it could be differences in the way the fish hit the fly.  Grand River browns hit the head of the fly to stun it.  I was getting a lot brief hookups and some foul hookups on the opposite side of the fish’s face with long shanked hooks.   However, if you’re getting hookups in the front of the lower jaw, the fish are tail chasing the prey.  If you’re getting hookups but your landing rate is poor, then you’re in the same situation as me.  When you feel a strike on a short shank fly, strip-strike, don’t lift the rod tip.  If you don’t feel the fish after, let everything go so the fly flows drag free then tighten up and put in a couple of strips.  Odds are you’ll get a hookup on the second strike.

I was looking at some of the flies you traded me before doing some tying. I keep them as samples and tie from them. I was comparing the short shanked ones you tied to the long shanked ones. The short shanked ones are VERY short and the long shanked ones are VERY long, in relationship to the length of the wing. I had tied some up on hooks with shanks midway between the two. These worked well for me in terms of hookups. I will try the short shanked ones some more as I really like the way they look and the action they have in the water. However, I’m not sure if I can get used to doing a slip strike. Too many years doing things another way. Willi

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if I can get used to doing a slip strike. Too many years doing things another way.

Boy do I know what you are talking about! I have been trying to get used to using a slip strike off and on for about 10 years now with only occasional success. I most often just raise the rod tip when fishing for trout or bluegills and try to use the slip strike for bass.The problem is that I catch a hell of a lot more trout and bluegill than I do bass and I love to see those small fish put a bend in the rod. Old habits are sure hard to break! Big Dale

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was looking at some of the flies you traded me before doing some tying. I keep them as samples and tie from them. I was comparing the short shanked ones you tied to the long shanked ones. The short shanked ones are VERY short and the long shanked ones are VERY long, in relationship to the length of the wing. I had tied some up on hooks with shanks midway between the two. These worked well for me in terms of hookups. I will try the short shanked ones some more as I really like the way they look and the action they have in the water. However, I’m not sure if I can get used to doing a slip strike. Too many years doing things another way. Willi

I also use flies with the same proportions as you described – a mid wing shank.  The nice brown hooked at Blue Rock Hole, was on a middie. They are a good compromise if the short shank flies prove to be too short.  You’re right though, the short shank flies do have better action.   The slip-stirke is fun though as you get two whacking great strikes from the fish, for the price of one.  The first time it works for you, it is magical.  The second strike seems somehow unreal after having missed the original hookup.  The fish is suddenly, THERE! The long shanked hooks are mainly used for very large species, chinook, steelhead, pike, bass, but they can work for larger resident trout.  These fish tend to engulf a fly of that size and the longer shank will usually place the tippet outside of the fish’s mouth, thereby protecting it.  I’ve kept a Rangley hook fly (rainbow smelt 1/0 8X) that was bent into a pretzel by a big buck chinook. BTW, the weamer idea seems to be working real well.  I had only one small, brown trout weamer at Penns that I lost on a rock while fooling around with the spey rod.  Moments earlier, it had hooked a very nice fish (lost, of course.)  I’ve also hooked a number of steelies with them and there’s no reason not to believe that residents won’t take a shine to them either. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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The slip-stirke is fun though as you get two whacking great strikes from the fish, for the price of one.  The first time it works for you, it is magical.  The second strike seems somehow unreal after having missed the original hookup.  The fish is suddenly, THERE!

        wtf is this?  talking in tongues?  tell your ol buddy about "the slip strike", would you? yfitons wayno (never afraid to show one’’s ignorance)

Response:

Although it is the season of runoff with it’s very high muddy water, this season it has been runoff – runon. With the irrigation demands and the low snowpack, even during the highest flows, there has been enough clarity to catch fish. Water levels have been fluctuating from day to day and within a day, from somewhat high water to very high water. Generally, we have at least a month of unfishable water. This year although the high water makes for tough fishing, the river is fishable. In fact, the fishing has been pretty decent. The catching has been as varied as the flows. Some days, I’ll catch alot of small fish with nothing sizable. Other days, all the fish are good sized. One day I’ll throw streamers on a sinking line, the next day dries skittered across the surface and what’s working doesn’t seem to correlate with the flows. The best dry fly day I’ve had was during the highest flows. There has been a large yellow Mayfly coming off that I’ve never seen before probably because it usually comes off during unfishable runoff. I’ve been fishing an oversized yellow dry with a large florescent (for visibility) yellow soft hackle as a dropper. This has brought up the biggest fish I’ve been taking, bigger even than on streamers. I’ve been fishing it by casting to the edges of the fast water, letting it drift downstream and then dragging the pair across the current back to me with the dry bouncing on the surface. Virtually all of the fish have taken the dragging flies. Most have taken the soft hackle but I’ve gotten a number of savage takes on the dry. I usually miss the hookup but several of them took the emerger on the next few casts. What has been surprising to me is that the fish are coming up through several feet of strong current and heavily stained water for the flies. I think the motion may be an aid to them in seeing the flies. I got to watch Peter use one of his streamer techniques for a very short time at the Penn’s Clave (wish that conditions had been a bit better so I could have watched some more. I also missed seeing him work a spey rod) Anyway, my half assed imitation of this technique has been working reasonably well. (Peter, what sink rate line were you using at the Blue Rock Hole? I’m fishing similar depth and current flows and don’t feel I’m getting down deep enough.) However, I continue to get nothing but short strikes on Peter’s short shanked streamers. When I put on a standard length streamer, I’m hooking a decent percentage of the fish. Flows are even higher today, still reasonable visibility so? Willi

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Question:

I just got home after the clave…Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine…

<snipped What is a knot machine?  I love gadgets, in fact my kids call me…never mind what they call me… <)))’    <)))’    <)))’    <’(((<    <)))’    <)))’

"Intolerance of ambiguity is the mark of an authoritarian personality."

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Ernie Harrison won a fly box & over 100 flies donated by Bruiser Vern

Hot damn, thank you Bruiser I can’t wait to see them. Vern, a check is in the mail for postage, thanks for your good work. Ernie

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I just got home after the clave…Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine… <snipped What is a knot machine?  I love gadgets, in fact my kids call me…never mind what they call me…

http://home.earthlink.net/~eharrison241/ — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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Hot damn, thank you Bruiser I can’t wait to see them. Vern, a check is in the mail for postage, thanks for your good work.

Now, no one said anything about being able to *see* them!  Bruce ties a lot of those nice midge thingies.  Actually when you get that many lined up you begin to see a pinkish hue against the white fly box background Regards, Jeff

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Hey Ernie, i was glad you won my flies, hope you like them. Bring them to the San Juan where you can use them.  I’ll take you fishing and we can tie a few blood knots. I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer and tie the flies.  On second thought, most of you will probably want to tie your own. There’s about 7 fly shops at the San Juan that need a new gadget in their inventory (I’m thinking blood knot machine). One more time, Warren, you ran a great clave.  I came late, found great people to fish with every day, and had the time of my life.  Can’t wait for Western Clave 2001. bruiser  YES I CAN POST!  YEE HA!  THANKS CHARLIE FOR THE COMPUTER HELP! Before you buy.

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I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer  <unimportant stuff snipped

  When and where is all I need to know. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Bruce,    I am certain I will love your flies.  I have never fished the San Juan but if I ever get down that way I will let you know and you can show me the ropes.  I used to wholesale the Blood Knot Machine several years ago to companies like Hook&Hackle, but just sell a few I have left on the Internet for my own entertainment now. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Ernie, Bring them to the San Juan where you can use them.  I’ll take you fishing and we can tie a few blood knots. I’m serious about the visit ernie, come on down and bring Darin, RW, Warren, Willi, Charlie, Bob, Dan’l, and all the other Roffers with you. I’ll buy the beer and tie the flies.  On second thought, most of you will probably want to tie your own. There’s about 7 fly shops at the San Juan that need a new gadget in their inventory (I’m thinking blood knot machine). One more time, Warren, you ran a great clave.  I came late, found great people to fish with every day, and had the time of my life.  Can’t wait for Western Clave 2001. bruiser

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I wanted to get on roff before doing anything else and post the results of the raffle. Bob Skinner won HoldZit Products donated by Pat R. Pat Reichner won a hat, fly box, flies, second fly box, & flies from the fly swap donated by Warren F.

Thanks Vern….I never made it to the clave or the raffle to pick up my prize.   Please send it ASAP.<g Bob, it was nice of you to pass out your HoldZit products to the rest of the clave fishermen/ladies.  I was hoping everyone got a sample. — Sharp Hooks, Pat Holdzit Fishing Products Inc. http://www.holdzit.com Before you buy.

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I just got home after the clave and after fishing Henry’s Fork, Buffalo River, and the Provo.  Why should the fishing end with the clave?  It didn’t for me. I wanted to get on roff before doing anything else and post the results of the raffle.  I should say that I have not read anything on roff and have no idea if anyone else have made another similar post.  More comments are to come after I clean out the car and get settled back into being home again. Mickey Agua won a quilt donated by Debbie U. Vernon Ursenbach won a bamboo fly-rod donated by Steve Z. Dan Finn won a fly rod donated by Mike C. & a rod tube donated by Tom B. Darin Minor won furled leaders donated by Michael E. & a ff book donated by Ken F. Brian D. Nelson won a knot tool & Simms thing donated by Frank C. & a bottle of wine donated by Dan F. Debbie Ursenbach won a knot machine & rod building info donated by Ernie H. Steve Zimmerman won 2 ff books donated by Kiyu Bob Skinner won HoldZit Products donated by Pat R. Michael Erana won a guided float trip for 2 donated by Brian N.  (There are special conditions that apply.) Bruce Hopper aka Bruiser won a fly box & 4 dozen flies donated by William L. Pat Wilson won a fly box, flies, & complete pheasant hide donated by Bob S. Frank Church T-Shirt & Y2K clave photo donated by Wayne H. Tom Brown won a fly box & flies donated by Dale W. Stephen Barnard aka RW won 2 ff books donated by Kelly R. Pat Reichner won a hat, fly box, flies, second fly box, & flies from the fly swap donated by Warren F. Ernie Harrison won a fly box & over 100 flies donated by Bruiser Dave Snedeker won a Cortland Lazerline WF3F donated by Darin M. Kelly Roger won a bunch of show stuff from Las Vegas donated by Vernon U. William Loehman won a 8′ 2wt fly rod donated by Charles W. Dale Wilkionson won a C&R tool & lanyard donated by RW Warren Findley won a fly reel donated by Walt W. Charles Wilson won a Bastard fly rod donated by Mickey A. (George ?) — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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Bruce Hopper aka Bruiser won a fly box & 4 dozen flies donated by William L.

I saw those flies – they appeared to be really well tied. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Question:

Let’s Get Us a Real River! The Red Cedar is the second biggest feature of our local natural heritage (first being farmland). But the river is vastly under-maintained, even though it’s vital to us. We impact it a lot and have great expectations of it. Why not see if there might be a way to improve the situation and start reaping the benefits that a quality river can give? What’s the river like now? A muddy ditch with a mucky bottom that floods when it doesn

Question:

In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980414223331.5121C- writes The cost is $36 bucks

A simple but effective, and adjustable, strap can be made from a strip of suitable material and some Velcro.  This will cost a lot less that $36. Just a few pence in our money (U.K.)  The strap is not vital for novice casters, who should learn the basics of casting without a strap. However some older, arthritic, or otherwise weak-wristed person will gain some benefit from the use of a strap. I apologise for entering the thread so late in the day, because some of the above has already been suggested. Regards from Wales — Bill

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Has anyone one used a product called ‘Easy Cast’? It’s a type of wrist band that wraps around the base of the fly rod and your wrist. The add claims "Casts will feel 50% lighter and 100% more comfortable and be more effective." The cost is $36 bucks (at least in the catalog I’ve seen them in). If anything, it looks like it’s make an expensive ’sissy strap’, but then again, if it does what it claims… Thanks in advanced!

Hi Robert, This sounds al lot like the "Wrist Lock" that Joan and Lee Wulff sold for years.  From time to time I use one in my schools for people who have extreme problems with their wrist.  They usually have no idea how much wrist movement they’re using. You can also wear a long sleeve shirt and tuck the butt of the rod into your sleeve to accomplish the same thing.  This limits the amount of movement your wrist can make and brings it to your attention.   It is a poor substitute for good technique and not a permanent or a good solution.   After a student sees how much he was using his wrist and and feels how much easier it is to cast by limiting their wrist movement, they can take it off and do as well without it.   If you rely on it to make your casting better, it will help in the short term, but you’ll soon compensate for it and your wrist problems will get worse instead of better.   The only way it can make the rod feel lighter is by making you use your forearm instead of so much wrist.  Less pressure on your wrist would make the rod feel lighter.  Better technique accomplishes the same thing.  If you leave your crutch behind, your fishing is ruined.  If you learn how to cast efficiently you don’t need it, plus you always know where your arm is (hard to lose).                        Hope this helps,                                Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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These wrist bands have been around for years. I first saw one in 1968. All they do is prevent you from moving your wrist while casting. This is an absolute necessity for the beginning caster. When you bend your wrist the rod tip goes in a circle. the line follows creating a wide loop or even hitting the ground in back and in front of you. Preventing the circular wrist motion avoids these beginners problems. Any strap that holds the rod butt against your forearm will provide the benefits claimed by the product. However,  36 bucks seems a little high when a piece of tape will accomplish the same thing. Two Points: 1) It would be better to learn how to cast correctly without the use of a crutch. Try strapping the rod butt to your forearm just to see how it improves your casting and then produce the same results without the crutch. 2) One advanced distance casting technique is to apply a greater amount of line speed by bending the wrist at the appropriate time late in the cast. This cannot be accomplished if you are dependent on a strap to keep you from bending the wrist at the wrong time. There really is only one way to learn how to cast well. It’s called Practice, Practice, and more Practice. Good Luck, — William Endicott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone one used a product called ‘Easy Cast’? It’s a type of wrist band that wraps around the base of the fly rod and your wrist. The add claims "Casts will feel 50% lighter and 100% more comfortable and be more effective." The cost is $36 bucks (at least in the catalog I’ve seen them in). If anything, it looks like it’s make an expensive ’sissy strap’, but then again, if it does what it claims… Thanks in advanced! -Robert | Robert Cid | | Department of Applied Science | University of California, Davis | -!Andale Aggies!- |

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This is one of those things that has been around for years.  It falls in the category with all of the other little gadgets that people buy.  If you buy one I have some swamp land I would like to talk to you about buying. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone one used a product called ‘Easy Cast’? It’s a type of wrist band that wraps around the base of the fly rod and your wrist. The add claims "Casts will feel 50% lighter and 100% more comfortable and be more effective." The cost is $36 bucks (at least in the catalog I’ve seen them in). If anything, it looks like it’s make an expensive ’sissy strap’, but then again, if it does what it claims… Thanks in advanced! -Robert | Robert Cid | | Department of Applied Science | University of California, Davis | -!Andale Aggies!- |

Response:

Has anyone one used a product called ‘Easy Cast’? It’s a type of wrist band that wraps around the base of the fly rod and your wrist. The add claims "Casts will feel 50% lighter and 100% more comfortable and be more effective." The cost is $36 bucks (at least in the catalog I’ve seen them in). If anything, it looks like it’s make an expensive ’sissy strap’, but then again, if it does what it claims… Thanks in advanced! -Robert | Robert Cid | | Department of Applied Science | University of California, Davis | -!Andale Aggies!- |

Response:

You can get much the same effect by wearing an elasticated wrist band and hooking it over the end of the rod handle. If nothing else, it’s worth trying first as it is MUCH cheaper! — Regards Peter Kay (Remove "nospam" to email)

: :Has anyone one used a product called ‘Easy Cast’? It’s a type of wrist :band that wraps around the base of the fly rod and your wrist. The add :claims "Casts will feel 50% lighter and 100% more comfortable and be more :effective." The cost is $36 bucks (at least in the catalog I’ve seen them :in). If anything, it looks like it’s make an expensive ’sissy strap’, but :then again, if it does what it claims… : :Thanks in advanced! : :-Robert : Robert Cid Department of Applied Science University of California, Davis -!Andale Aggies!- : :

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Question:

I live in Eastern Mass. and am looking for a good spot for Flyfishing. Any recommendations?

Response:

I live in Eastern Mass. and am looking for a good spot for Flyfishing. Any recommendations?

Try Walden and White pond for trout The Mystics for bass and pikerel. Any river off the North shore for stripers and bluefish Email me for more specifics Bubba B

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Question:

Hi my name is Eric, I may be moving to northern Indiana near south bend come beginning of may do to job oppertunity.  Are there any lakes close by besides michigan that contain nice size walleyes.  any names would be greatly appreciated.  also love to bass and fly fish so they would halp also. thank you ERIC

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Hi my name is Eric, I may be moving to northern Indiana near south bend come beginning of may do to job oppertunity.  Are there any lakes close by besides michigan that contain nice size walleyes.  any names would be greatly appreciated.  also love to bass and fly fish so they would halp also. thank you ERIC

Lake Erie is one of the premier walleye lakes in the world and ha a variety of types of angling from drifting to trolling and thelake has several distinct caharachteristics inbthe western basin it is relatively shallow and lots of structure in the central basin it is about 75 foot eeep and in the eastern basin it has holes between 100 foot plus in a few ateas and one spot over 200 feet deep. This promotes 3 distinct fisheries. In April and May head to the Islands by June july and August head farther east. There will still be fish in the Islands but schools of fish tend to move east and eventually sto between Geneva and Conneaut and then begin heading back to the Islands of the western basin. If you need local information or captains email me and I can steer you in the right direction. I know a couple dozen captains that fish in the islands and many more in the central basin. Typically the captains in the islands are tight lipped but the guys in the central basin are pretty open as long as you leave them room to fish. If you need information get it before you leave the dock  or only from peole you trust because there is a lot of misinformation given on the radio. Captain Bryce Seymour http://www.ncweb.com:80/biz/hooker/ New moster websight under construction will be up this spring

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Eric,    I have lived in south bend my whole life and have done alot of fishing there.  Even though I don’t know of any lakes in the area good for walleye I have caught themout of the St. Joe river in S. Bend.  Most of the fishing I have done has been from shore but I do know of spots on the river you can catch them if you have a boat.  If you would like to here tell you more if you would like. Helpin’ you find ‘um, jason – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi my name is Eric, I may be moving to northern Indiana near south bend come beginning of may do to job oppertunity.  Are there any lakes close by besides michigan that contain nice size walleyes.  any names would be greatly appreciated.  also love to bass and fly fish so they would halp also. thank you ERIC Lake Erie is one of the premier walleye lakes in the world and ha a variety of types of angling from drifting to trolling and thelake has several distinct caharachteristics inbthe western basin it is relatively shallow and lots of structure in the central basin it is about 75 foot eeep and in the eastern basin it has holes between 100 foot plus in a few ateas and one spot over 200 feet deep. This promotes 3 distinct fisheries. In April and May head to the Islands by June july and August head farther east. There will still be fish in the Islands but schools of fish tend to move east and eventually sto between Geneva and Conneaut and then begin heading back to the Islands of the western basin. If you need local information or captains email me and I can steer you in the right direction. I know a couple dozen captains that fish in the islands and many more in the central basin. Typically the captains in the islands are tight lipped but the guys in the central basin are pretty open as long as you leave them room to fish. If you need information get it before you leave the dock  or only from peole you trust because there is a lot of misinformation given on the radio. Captain Bryce Seymour http://www.ncweb.com:80/biz/hooker/ New moster websight under construction will be up this spring

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Question:

Yep. Steve

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: I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you                        <clip<clip<clip : has since been taken over by animal "rights" types. : For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm : "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of : 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington : state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each : campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional : stewardship of state wildlife managers. : Americans for Medical Progress, the key national research advocacy group : that monitors the animal rights agenda, predicted the HSUS ballot          <clip<clip<clip : and laboratory animal issues and other issues that are appropriate" in the : future."… There was an initiative here in Michigan this last election dealing with the taking of bear over bait or with hounds.  The initiative would have banned both practices. When I found out what was  behind this initiative, it became clear to me it was nothing more than an anti-hunting measure.  The person behind getting it on the ballot claimed it would help bear hunting because it would license more hunters to get the same harvest.  Well, it would also have banned bear hunting during anytime in which baiting for any other specie was allowed. Since we have a deer season that runs from October first to the end of of December, there wouldn’t really be any time to have a bear season. There were a couple of other issues that indicated to me that this whole thing was vacant of anything substantive and was just an anti-hunting measure. Fortunately, it was defeated *SOUNDLY* and another measure passed that gives wildlife management to the professionals. PETA and apparently HSUS supported the initiative. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University

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This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell you. Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor. Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined. Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.     This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

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This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell

you. Just go to a garbage dump and try to avoid tripping over them Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man.

More and more and more and more and more limited range all the time. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor.

Too bad the wildlife managers don’t have a say about where the next subdivision is going to go up. Since the man made hunting pressure is off, you should by your argument have the best of both worlds.  Wildlife populations will go through the roof, so you will practicly trip over critters without the use of baits.  Why, you’ll probably be able to hunt them from your living room window in that new condo development that went up in what used to be a forest.  Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars

This is supposed to convince me that hunting has no affect on populations? I generally agree that hunters put far more into environment and habitat preservation than the public is aware of, but come on!  Get some more weight behind your citation of authorities.  Does the concept of scueing and bias mean anything to you?  and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined.

Generalizations mean nothing and lead nowhere! Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.  

Its really nice that you are so broad minded(sarcasm dripping)  What do I have to teach you about biology to make YOU understand that having a lot of a selected species to shoot and kill is by no means an indicator of a healthy environment.  It just means you’ve done an excellent job of elliminating a lot of diversity to make room for your particular favorite species, based solely on what you like to shoot and NOT on what is good for the environment.  If this was not the case, we would not be loosing over 200 species per year to extinction.   This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

What rose coloured view are you talking about?  What is irrational?  Be specific man!  Its pretty hard to argue a point that has never been made. I really don’t know what your background is, but I find it really, really repugnant that you can talk about generalizations like hunters having some superior knowledge and understanding of the environment and talk about Old Growth Forest issues as being contraversial.  Its not a cotraversy, its a tragedy!   You want to let the last bits and remanents to be cut down and managed? What happened to all the other 95% that we cut down and managed?  Where were your experts then?  Probably looking over the blue prints for their new condo, that’s where! Its this kind of lame, unfocussed hogwash that creates the kind of polarity that keeps people from doing what’s right instead of doing whats best for themselves. Just MHO Mike

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In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.   Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.   Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do it for sport, and it generates revenues. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers. For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: alt.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: AM Construction   In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for   bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these   techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and   presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.     Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.     Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do   it for sport, and it generates revenues.   Steve

OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds.   Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations. In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

And don’t get caught with a trap. I hear that the next election, they are going after using hooks on fish. Paul

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First of all, I actually read the initiative.  Unfortunately I don’t have a copy here in front of me, so this is from memory.  One of the local papers had an editorial slamming the initiative because it didn’t "Outlaw" the practices, just made them illegal for common folk. The text of the initiative stated (not a quote, but the gist) that Wildlife agents or their assigns could use bait or hounds to hunt down and kill problem bears.  Read "bears that are annoying people".  Sort of gives the lie to the idea that the practices are just tooooo barbaric and unfair. It stated that bait could be used to attract bears for "research purposes," whatever that means.  (But I thought that we didn’t want the bears to get used to people feeding them…) Anyone who has ever hunted bear in Western Washington brush knows that the traditional method of controlling bear numbers (sport hunting) just went out the window.  Incidental kills simply will not keep pace with population growth.  Ain’t no way you’re going to be able to target an area and reduce the bear population without resorting to bait and/or hounds. Well, maybe poisoned poodles……no wait, that’s bait…… Of course we could mount a multimillion dollar campaign to supply the bruins with condoms. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds. Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,       -tgades tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

The other method they use is to create paranoia through undercover fanatical defenders of the insane under the guise of "I’m just sticking up for the minorities no matter how ludicress it sounds". Scully and Mulder will expose your devious plot.  You don’t fool me! Mike

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For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  

In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

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     < snip "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts.

Hi Jim, The Washington State initiative is the only one I know about.  It only prohibits bear baiting and hound hunting for cougars.  I don’t hunt but "some of my best friends . . .".  Many hunters supported the initiative but the anti crowd used wild and false statements (along the lines of "they wanna take away your right to hunt, they wanna take away your way of life") in their attempt to defeat the initiative.  Fortunately, the public saw through their BS and passed it. My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal. August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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 I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you  might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of  the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it  has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.  For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm  "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of  1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington  state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each  campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional  stewardship of state wildlife managers.

Unfortunately for our wallets, the initiative passed in Washington.  For those who don’t bother to look at the end result of their vote — the state of Washington, expecting the measure to pass, had already lined up professional hunters with dogs to handle the necessary extermination of these animals when they exceed practical levels of population. The state will now have to pay for the service. The state of Oregon failed to pass the needed repeal of a similar law. There the state found that the number of animals they had to _pay_ to have exterminated was equivalent to the number that sport hunters usually paid for the right to hunt them.  Definitely a lose-lose situation for the state.  I’ve heard the cost is a couple of million annually. Even California is now having a pretty significant problem with cougars moving into populated areas making it unsafe to let the toddler play in the backyard.

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My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal.

In my view of the universe, the achilles heel of this legislation is in the fact that it takes "wildlife management" out of the hands of the professionals (ie. Departments of Fish and Game/Wildlife [admittedly an arguable statement, but certainly not improved upon by asking Joe/ Jane-weaned-on-Disney-Classics to take up this responsibility]).  Why do we believe that Fish and Game managers allow detrimental (some would claim "cruel’) practices to continue despite convincing evidence "that even a layman can understand"?  Could it be that the issue is more complex than we appreciate?  Let the wildlife management community do their job.  We should be able to make input into the decision making process.  But, let’s not take the decision making out of the hands of the trained professionals until they give us cause. Clearly, with 27 ballot initiatives on the Oregon ballet this year, the initiative process is being abused.  I always ask myself– "Is this a matter that requires a change to the state constitution, with all the attendant costs, to address the issue?"   The answer is usually, "No". I guess it goes back to the thread about big government vs. individual responsibility.  But, in reverse!  Now were talking about big government (ie. the voting owners of the government) trying to dictate how the little wildlife management community (probably a government agency working with state schools) carries out its responsibilities. Life is weird when you’re left-handed! Charley

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  I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers.

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

You might want to re-read the the ballot question carefully. Question 1 in Massachusetts was advertised to outlaw the use of spring traps in the state. At the End of the lengthy ballot question it also read that the laws are to be changed to allow non sportsman(AKA ARA’s) to serve on the board that governs hunting and fishing in this state. Unfortunatly all the TV ads showed thirty year old footage of animals including household pets caught in the traps with no mention of the second part of the question and question 1 passed by a 3-2 margin. Hopefully this can be changed before the ARA’s take over the board and try to ban hunting and fishing in this state.(Don’t think it can’t happen!!)

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

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Question:

: I hear there’s a good stream in Vail…. Hey, that’s my bit. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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It’s rare indeed, but if you can find that section of clear bank, slightly inclined, it is possible to ski down while trolling a wooley bugger… TimW

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski. I was wondering what kind of turnout might be expected for a flyfishing show held at a ski resort or in a ski resort town where the flyfishing show would be scheduled for the evenings (3 to 10PM).  Please respond directly. thanks, Bill Althoff

The ski industry does a lot of market research including reseach on other sports of interest to skiers.  I have seen those reports in the past but don’t recall the fly fishing is very the list of other sports of interest to skiers.  Ski Area Management magazine could probably give you the data, or put you in touch with the people that have the data. For what it’s worth, my personal observation (28 years teaching skiing, 32 years fly fishing) is that there is not very much natural attraction between skiers and flyfishing (at least alpine, downhill skiers). In contrast, there is a very high cross-over between skiing and sailing or windsurfing.  I suspect you will find a higher correlation between nordic skiers and flyfishing.  I do think however that as interest in fly fishing has increased in recent years, that skiers as a group are a likely target for "recruiting".

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<<<<< clipity clip clip I suspect you will find a higher correlation between nordic skiers and flyfishing.<<<<<< rest clipped

Using backcountry ski’s to get up to fish some pretty areas in the winter sounds great to me. You might want to find some Rivers or Lakes that don’t freeze over tho. It’d be pretty boring to be casting to that little hole in the ice! Ted…. (I x-country ski, but have never tried this)

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski. I was wondering what kind of turnout might be expected for a flyfishing show held at a ski resort or in a ski resort town where the flyfishing show would be scheduled for the evenings (3 to 10PM).  Please respond directly. thanks, Bill Althoff

In general, these would be the people I’d avoid like the plague.   Strictly the Jeep Grand Cherokee-driving, capuccino-sipping, Cuban cigar-smoking, "Friends"-watching, cellular phone-carrying, lunch-doing, narcissistic, over-paid, post-Yuppie (have I covered it all?) crowd. I’ll stay home and re-read Haig-Brown. –Rich

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I don’t know about statistics, but I love fly fishing and my family loves skiing (I have problems skiing due to arthritis). So, we usually go out west skiing for my kids spring break (first week of April) and I look for ski areas near good fishing opportunities. A lot of ski areas are right near great fishing areas because mountain streams are great for fishing. My sense is that the FF business picks up in the summer after the snow is gone. A good time to do a show, would be first week of April. Spring skiing is good then and so is pre run-off fishing. Steve Rosenblum

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski.

Here’s the sad tale of why these don’t mix. In 1967 a nice friend of the family gave me a gift. He knew I loved fishing so he gave me a bamboo flyrod. Took me a long time to figure out how to use it, couldn’t get that fat line through the hook eye, bait kept flying off when I cast, etc. Finally saw a story in a mag at the rec center, butchered my sister’s Barbie doll, raided the Xmas stuff and tied me a fly. Caught some tinker mackerel and pollock on it. All this was well and good until skiing ruined it. In 1968 I used to ski on a hill behind my house. At the base of that hill lived a – high school girl (I was 12 at the time) and she was cuuute. After the Olympics she had a crush on Jean Claude Killy. I had a pair of skiis, but didn’t have any gates to fly through and win her heart. I cut up all my fishing poles (I had a lot of them) and set me one hell of a course. Learned to ski through it too. She ran away with a basketball player. I had no fishing poles. It was many years later when I was poking around my Dad’s basement, that I found the cork grip with a little stubb of bamboo sticking out of it. A little stub that said "Orvis" on it. This is all true, I only hope that wasn’t a Wes Jordan I ran GS through. So you see skiing and flyfishing just plain don’t mix. The woman part is arguable.                                                                 jc

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski. I was wondering what kind of turnout might be expected for a flyfishing show held at a ski resort or in a ski resort town where the flyfishing show would be scheduled for the evenings (3 to 10PM).  Please respond directly.

No statistics, just a few ideas. The same can be said for fly-fishing and skiing regarding portions of the sport.    

Question:

Man, you guys over there in the good ole US of A don’t know what you’re missin’ out on!! Seriously though some excellent fly-fishing is to be had in Tassie. My favourite moments are those when the fish is poking around in 4 inchs of water, spotted back and dorsals breaking the surface. The fish’s window of vision is so small the fly needs to land right in the fish’s path. Too close and the fish is spooked, too far and the fish won’t even notice the fly. I’ve spent up to two hours on a single fish until finally setting the hook. If you fancy a bit of polaroiding then Tassie’s sandy bottom lakes will make you happy (although their not all sandy bottomed!!!!). Large fish up to around 8 pounds cruise around in these crystal clear waters, some tarns are not bigger than an average family’s block of land. If you don’t mind inching your way around on your stomach trying to fool a brown, then Tassie is place for your next visit. Just remember Got any questions about Tassie then read a book! or ask ME..I live in Melbourne which just across bass strait for those of you not familiar. Tassie’s nice but I wouldn’t live there. By the way I am looking for female fly-fishing penfriends….leave a message and I’ll get back. Mark

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Man, you guys over there in the good ole US of A don’t know what you’re missin’ out on!! Seriously though some excellent fly-fishing is to be had in Tassie. Got any questions about Tassie then read a book! or ask ME..I live in Melbourne which just across bass strait for those of you not familiar. Mark

Or you con contact me. I live in the US but my Father in Law is in Tazzie and is Currently the President of Fly Fish Australia. Malcom (his name) and I are in the planning stage of arranging holiday packages for the fly fisherman who would like to try some of the BEST fishing in the world, Anyone interested should contact me, as he is not yet on the net, but we’re working on it. Thanks.

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Question:

Heading down to SC for Xmas to see sis.  Is there still fishing there at that time of year?  If so, where, and any suggested patterns?  Reply here or to email.  Thanks. Martin Rooney

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(MartinR100) writes:

""Heading down to SC for Xmas to see sis.  Is there still fishing there at that time of year?  If so, where, and any suggested patterns?  Reply here or to email.  Thanks."" Martin, You can secure expert, friendly advice at "Foothills Fly Fishing" shop, 1908 N. Pleasantburg in Greenville, 803-292-2406.  Good luck, Steve S.

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