Question:

July 24,25.26,27  Gosh, I hope you can make it.  You are going to be missing a wonderful party if you dont.  LOL

I  put it on my calendar, I have been watching the fares.  It is on a weekend so there is not too much time off.  It would be a blast  to attend one of the Midwest/East coast gimpfests.  – MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My son rowed the Middle Fork last year and came back saying he wants to move to Idaho. He’s applied for this year too, also in June. I’ll have to call him today to see if he’s heard yet. Did you get an early enough date to be able to contiunue on down the main part of the river? That’s their strategy- I guess there’s a window of opportunity if the timing is right. Usually it is the Middlefork that has the limitation on water the first day or until you reach Indian Creek, then the flow almost doubles.  Main Salmon is always runnable.  It is a lousy water year, but I am hoping runoff will last long enough to get us through the first day or 2 after that the flows increase. I can imagine your son loved it, it is  an amazing river even after all the fires.  – MZ

Well, it’s not too late to pray for more snow! last year April was very productive I understand. All this talk–has me dreaming about kayaking the Green River again. I did that a number of years ago before I got RA.  Flat water but wonderful. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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We will also try to get a permit for the Main Salmon.  If we can score a permit for the main stem Salmon it means we will do the Middlefork then float down to the put-in on the Main Salmon and do back to back trips totaling about 200 miles.

Ooops, obviously I didn’t read on down the thread before posting! too exciting! Cynthia

Response:

My son rowed the Middle Fork last year and came back saying he wants to move to Idaho. He’s applied for this year too, also in June. I’ll have to call him today to see if he’s heard yet. Did you get an early enough date to be able to contiunue on down the main part of the river? That’s their strategy- I guess there’s a window of opportunity if the timing is right.

Usually it is the Middlefork that has the limitation on water the first day or until you reach Indian Creek, then the flow almost doubles.  Main Salmon is always runnable.  It is a lousy water year, but I am hoping runoff will last long enough to get us through the first day or 2 after that the flows increase. I can imagine your son loved it, it is  an amazing river even after all the fires.  – MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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Thank you for the compliment.  I hope we have a good flow in June for you. It is beautiful.  I packed back into Big Creek, a tributary of the Salmon, on horses when I was 18.  Dad and Unc were after goats and sheep.  They filled both.  It was literally an experience of a lifetime.  I am now 56 and Dad and Unc are 83 and 79.  Wish we had more pictures. I wish you the best and I can imagine how excited you are.

You have a beautiful State and the Middlefork is really magical, it is one of my most favorite rivers (and I have done a fair number of rivers).  I put it in the top 3 right next to the Grand Canyon. You can’t compare the Grand and Middlefork they are apples and oranges.  I always try to read the history when I go.  I have read about the Sheepeaters and the wars.  If we get a Main Salmon permit we go right past the Polly Beamis homestead.  I love reading river lore.  I read the book Thousand Pieces of Gold about Polly Beamis when I ran the Salmon.  On the Rogue I enjoy reading Hathaway Jones stories out loud; everyone gets into hysterics, they are tall tales.  Fun to dig out the history.   If you have any good book suggestions for that area let me know. Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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What a blast we will be launching in June!

Hmmmmm.  Does that free you up for Gimpfest in July? Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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What a blast we will be launching in June! Hmmmmm.  Does that free you up for Gimpfest in July? Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together."  Red Green

When is the Gimpfest?  I have a request  in Travelocity to watch for good fares to Des Moines.  We will be gone until early July,  a bit longer if the Main Sa;lmon permit is obtained. — MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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July 24-27 http://www.fadedjeans.com/iowa/ Duckie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a blast we will be launching in June! Hmmmmm.  Does that free you up for Gimpfest in July? Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’. We’re all in this together."  Red Green When is the Gimpfest?  I have a request  in Travelocity to watch for good fares to Des Moines.  We will be gone until early July,  a bit longer if the Main Sa;lmon permit is obtained. — MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

–   _(‘  (_<_)           _   _(‘< -quack  (_<_)     _    __(‘< *QUACK!* <_{__)   _(‘< "|,,|_"  (_<_)

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July 24,25.26,27  Gosh, I hope you can make it.  You are going to be missing a wonderful party if you dont.  LOL Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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I just got the word one of my boating buddies drew a permit for the Idaho’s Middlefork of the Salmon!   I love rowing the Middlefork it is one of my all time favorite rivers and an extremely difficult permit to get.  What a blast we will be launching in June!  Sorry I know this is way OTP but this is really exciting news. — MZ

Lucky You! My son rowed the Middle Fork last year and came back saying he wants to move to Idaho. He’s applied for this year too, also in June. I’ll have to call him today to see if he’s heard yet. Did you get an early enough date to be able to contiunue on down the main part of the river? That’s their strategy- I guess there’s a window of opportunity if the timing is right. Cynthia

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Have you ever examined the info on the Sheepeater Indians?  They populated the area and that is where the petroglyphs came from.  You can still see depressions in some of the banks that were where they camped. — Val in Boise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We will also try to get a permit for the Main Salmon.  If we can score a permit for the main stem Salmon it means we will do the Middlefork then float down to the put-in on the Main Salmon and do back to back trips totaling about 200 miles.  We did the Middlefork last in 1997 managed to pick-up a canceled permit for the Main Salmon 2 days before we departed for the trip.  It is awesome crystal clear water, canyons, mountains, hot springs, elk, big horn, petroglyphs, and the best fly fishing you will find anywhere.  First day of the Middlefork is non-stop rapids, not overwhelming but you have to pay attention. Our party usually breaks at least 1 oar in that stretch because it is shallow. Picking up a canceled permits mean we have to call almost every day starting in late March. This is one of the classic western river trips.  I have been bouncing off the walls all day.  – MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

Response:

Thank you for the compliment.  I hope we have a good flow in June for you. It is beautiful.  I packed back into Big Creek, a tributary of the Salmon, on horses when I was 18.  Dad and Unc were after goats and sheep.  They filled both.  It was literally an experience of a lifetime.  I am now 56 and Dad and Unc are 83 and 79.  Wish we had more pictures. I wish you the best and I can imagine how excited you are. — Val in Boise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got the word one of my boating buddies drew a permit for the Idaho’s Middlefork of the Salmon!   I love rowing the Middlefork it is one of my all time favorite rivers and an extremely difficult permit to get.  What a blast we will be launching in June!  Sorry I know this is way OTP but this is really exciting news. — MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

Response:

I just got the word one of my boating buddies drew a permit for the Idaho’s Middlefork of the Salmon!   I love rowing the Middlefork it is one of my all time favorite rivers and an extremely difficult permit to get.  What a blast we will be launching in June!  Sorry I know this is way OTP but this is really exciting news. — MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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Sent this along to John. You just never know. Duckie I just got the word one of my boating buddies drew a permit for the Idaho’s Middlefork of the Salmon!   I love rowing the Middlefork it is one of my all time favorite rivers and an extremely difficult permit to get.  What a blast we will be launching in June!  Sorry I know this is way OTP but this is really exciting news. — MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

–   _(‘  (_<_)           _   _(‘< -quack  (_<_)     _    __(‘< *QUACK!* <_{__)   _(‘< "|,,|_"  (_<_)

Response:

I just got the word one of my boating buddies drew a permit for the Idaho’s Middlefork of the Salmon!   I love rowing the Middlefork it is one of my all time favorite rivers and an extremely difficult permit to get.  What a blast we will be launching in June!  Sorry I know this is way OTP but this is really exciting news. — MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

Wonderful!  How are you gonna stand the wait until June? — Nann remove the Gator cheer to email me "To array a man’s will against his sickness is the supreme art of medicine." …Henry Ward Beecher

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Welll as usual, I will expect a vicarious thrill.  Congrats M

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We will also try to get a permit for the Main Salmon.  If we can score a permit for the main stem Salmon it means we will do the Middlefork then float down to the put-in on the Main Salmon and do back to back trips totaling about 200 miles.  We did the Middlefork last in 1997 managed to pick-up a canceled permit for the Main Salmon 2 days before we departed for the trip.  It is awesome crystal clear water, canyons, mountains, hot springs, elk, big horn, petroglyphs, and the best fly fishing you will find anywhere.  First day of the Middlefork is non-stop rapids, not overwhelming but you have to pay attention. Our party usually breaks at least 1 oar in that stretch because it is shallow. Picking up a canceled permits mean we have to call almost every day starting in late March. This is one of the classic western river trips.  I have been bouncing off the walls all day.  – MZ Visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

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I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

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I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

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1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

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Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

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Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

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Question:

South Africa is not all that bad I do admit to a lot of crime here though Aids is not much of a problem among the white communities they say something like 35% of all Africans are infected From Gavin

That’s what I was talking about.  It’s been in the news over here quite a bit lately.  Didn’t realize that it was localized to the black community. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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if one was limited to 1 line for each line weight #2-#12 and could only spend about $50 on each line what kind,weight,taper,density(floating sinking etc.)price and color would it be is there a preference for certain line which lines are the most popular which line would you recommend for a beginner what do you think of multi tips etc. these answers will help in restocking a new fly shop in south africa we have got airflow flylines but want to now what the craze is now information will be greatly appreciated tight lines from Gavin

If I walked into a fly shop and they had only 1 type of line in each weight, I would immediately walk out. Peter G. Aitken

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If I walked into a fly shop and they had only 1 type of line in each weight, I would immediately walk out.

LOL.  I didn’t think about that but I agree.  Unless it is the only shop within a 100 miles and I need stuff now. I’ve been in a situation where I went fishing to a location that I was told had a local fly-shop.  Therefore, I chose to buy some of my stuff at their shop in hopes of getting some local information.  However, the shop turned out to be a small corner in a gas station.  The only other shop was 3 hours away. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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If I walked into a fly shop and they had only 1 type of line in each weight, I would immediately walk out.  If you were in a society where the average yearly  income is 1/100 of the US, you might view shopping  opportunities in a different light.  Greg.

I could be wrong, but I’m guessing that Gavin’s folks aren’t selling a lot of fly lines to the native South Africans. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

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 HMMMM  lessssseee. I net 85K so 1/100 would be $850. HOLY SMOKES Pancho I just spent more for 6 mo. professional hazard insurance than the average annual income of 4/5 of the world.Not to mention the annual dues I pay to the various professional societies.AH the wonders of tax loopholes.  By the way 3 out of 4 people make up 75 % of the worlds population.   OK OK OK  shut up and go fishing. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I walked into a fly shop and they had only 1 type of line in each weight, I would immediately walk out.  If you were in a society where the average yearly  income is 1/100 of the US, you might view shopping  opportunities in a different light.  Greg.

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I second the trashing of the Airflow lines.  I’ve only been fly fishing for 12 years, but for the last 2 years I’ve been ff about 4-5 times a week. I’ve used the Airflo Delta and Bass lines:  they suck terribly.  Never ever lose their memory (when in Florida I stretched a line around my garage and left it in the 100 degree heat for 24 hours, and it still retained its memory coil) and they are sure to tangle on at least 25 to 50% of your casts.  Even the cheapest Cortlands (333) and SAs are far better. Adam

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But poke holes in them with a pin first and you might (with luck) have a few new customers in … maybe … 15-20 years!

My mother sells rubbers to sailors. My pop pokes  the holes with a pin. My sister performs the abortions. My God, how the money rolls in! (Just kidding…Mom’s a lawyer, Dad teaches, and the closest thing I have to a sister is their female Golden Retriever) Vegetables aren’t food. Vegetables are what the food eats.

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LOL…the minute I read your message and saw the word ‘airflow’ I thought, "*((&%)# line memory!"  Then I read the replies that are above mine and have little to add.   Absolute crap.   I’ve been fly fishing many years now and can think of few things I’ve purchased that have caused me more anger and headaches during the short time I used it. I now keep what’s left of it in my large fishing box to use for emergency shoe laces, tent rope, etc. Until recently I had a large enough house lot so that I could stretch my fly lines out in the sun full length under tension to get out any line memory, prior to most trips.  It worked great on everything but the Airflow, which still looked like a floating slinky on the surface when used the next day. I’m not as conversant as some on the new lines, so can’t recommend any particular brand, but just wanted to add my $.02 worth about ‘Airflow.’ Max Before you buy.

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Trash the AirFlo lines, stock a full line of AirFlo leaders, get SA and Cortland fly lines, give out free condoms with each purchase over $50 or you’ll have no customers in 5 years. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Gavin, I thought you were the 16 year old kid.  Didn’t you say that you started fly-fishing 6 years ago when you were 10?  Now, you have your own fly-shop in South Africa? — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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I second the trashing of the Airflow lines.  I’ve only been fly fishing for 12 years, but for the last 2 years I’ve been ff about 4-5 times a week. I’ve used the Delta and Bass lines:  they suck terribly.  Never ever lose their memory (when in Florida I stretched a line around my garage and left it in the 100 degree heat for 24 hours, and it still retained its memory coil) and they are sure to tangle on at least 25 to 50% of your casts.  Even the cheapest Cortlands (333) and SAs are far better. Adam

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if one was limited to 1 line for each line weight #2-#12 and could only spend about $50 on each line what kind,weight,taper,density(floating sinking etc.)price and color would it be is there a preference for certain line which lines are the most popular which line would you recommend for a beginner what do you think of multi tips etc. these answers will help in restocking a new fly shop in south africa we have got airflow flylines but want to now what the craze is now information will be greatly appreciated tight lines from Gavin

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if one was limited to 1 line for each line weight #2-#12 and could only spend about $50 on each line what kind,weight,taper,density(floating sinking etc.)price and color would it be is there a preference for certain line which lines are the most popular which line would you recommend for a beginner what do you think of multi tips etc. these answers will help in restocking a new fly shop in south africa we have got airflow flylines but want to now what the craze is now information will be greatly appreciated tight lines from Gavin

Again, trash the airflow lines.  I like the Rio lines.  However, Corland is a big company and might be easier to get in South Africa. Their lines are okay depending on which one you get. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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Trash the AirFlo lines, stock a full line of AirFlo leaders, get SA and Cortland fly lines, give out free condoms with each purchase over $50 or you’ll have no customers in 5 years. — Wayne

___  The voice of experience!  Good advice. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

  gink.vcf

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… give out free condoms with each purchase over $50 or you’ll have no customers in 5 years.

But poke holes in them with a pin first and you might (with luck) have a few new customers in … maybe … 15-20 years! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

That is "Airflo", not "airflow", which is immaterial in any case as it is only fit for the bin. If you do not already know the answers to these questions, quite apart from the prices involved, then you should not be opening a fly shop. The "craze" at the moment appears to be inline skates. TL MC "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2000 19:56 if one was limited to 1 line for each line weight #2-#12 and could only spend about $50 on each line what kind,weight,taper,density(floating sinking etc.)price and color would it be is there a preference for certain line which lines are the most popular which line would you recommend for a beginner what do you think of multi tips etc. these answers will help in restocking a new fly shop in south africa we have got airflow flylines but want to now what the craze is now information will be greatly appreciated tight lines from Gavin — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de if one was limited to 1 line for each line weight #2-#12 and could only spend about $50 on each line what kind,weight,taper,density(floating sinking etc.)price and color would it be is there a preference for certain line which lines are the most popular which line would you recommend for a beginner what do you think of multi tips etc. these answers will help in restocking a new fly shop in south africa we have got airflow flylines but want to now what the craze is now information will be greatly appreciated tight lines from Gavin

Response:

… give out free condoms with each purchase over $50 or you’ll have no customers in 5 years. But poke holes in them with a pin first and you might (with luck) have a few new customers in … maybe … 15-20 years! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

If they live that long.  Odds aren’t as good as they used to be in SA. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … give out free condoms with each purchase over $50 or you’ll have no customers in 5 years. But poke holes in them with a pin first and you might (with luck) have a few new customers in … maybe … 15-20 years! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon If they live that long.  Odds aren’t as good as they used to be in SA. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

South Africa is not all that bad I do admit to a lot of crime here though Aids is not much of a problem among the white communities they say something like 35% of all Africans are infected From Gavin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is "Airflo", not "airflow", which is immaterial in any case as it is only fit for the bin. If you do not already know the answers to these questions, quite apart from the prices involved, then you should not be opening a fly shop. The "craze" at the moment appears to be inline skates. TL MC "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Im just wanted to know as we have sold most of AIRFLO stock and plan to get more I said if 1 was limited to $50 which is about R320 with our exchange rate at the moment Oh I dont own a shop I am helping my friend who does regards Gavin

Response:

if one was limited to 1 line for each line weight #2-#12 and could only spend about $50 on each line what kind,weight,taper,density(floating sinking etc.)price and color would it be is there a preference for certain line which lines are the most popular which line would you recommend for a beginner what do you think of multi tips etc. these answers will help in restocking a new fly shop in south africa we have got airflow flylines but want to now what the craze is now information will be greatly appreciated tight lines from Gavin

Response:

Question:

: Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where : he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, : Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go : flyfishing. : If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to pass them along.  He would : be most interested in a spot which would be an easy drive from Boothbay. : Thanks, : Bob LaMontagne : Cincinnati, OH The Atlantic Ocean. He can use his fresh water rod and 4 feet of 4 pound tippet with small clousers to catch macks and schoolies, which are likely to be 95%-100% of his hhok ups. If he hangs a big striper, he will have a hell of a great time trying to get him in. Tell him to be SURE to wash all his gear in fresh water after each trip. This means pop the spool out of the reel and wash all the rod guides.

Response:

Boothbay has a number of ponds that are very good fishing. Smallmouth bass will readily take poppers and yellow deerhair bugs in the early morning and evening hours. If he wants to try ocean fly fishing, there are stripped Bass that run 12 to 40 inches, mackerel run 8 to 20 inches and Bluefish up to 25 pounds.     I f he wants landlocked salmon and brook trout, he’ll have to fish tiny dries or nymphs on bottom. If you need to know more or want to purchase flies designed for the fishing here, you can contact me at http://www.kynd.com/~ronmcq/fsf/fsf.html Ron McKusick Featherside Flies Corinna Maine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go flyfishing. If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to pass them along.  He would be most interested in a spot which would be an easy drive from Boothbay. Thanks, Bob LaMontagne Cincinnati, OH

Response:

Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go flyfishing.

Grand Lake Stream (between two lakes in Washington Cty.) has (or used to have) landlocked salmon and trout as well as bass and may be the closest to Mount Desert I.  Check whether any of the Atlantic salmon rivers in August, possibly the Dennys or Machias. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

Can you help?  My brother-in-law enjoys flyfishing (mostly in Michigan where he lives).  We will be vacationing together this August in Boothbay Harbor, Maine and I would like to be able to point him to a good spot to go flyfishing. If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to pass them along.  He would be most interested in a spot which would be an easy drive from Boothbay. Thanks, Bob LaMontagne Cincinnati, OH

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what you are flying but when flying my instructors Turbo Aztec, six full grown american people and topped off I can hold 15,000 on one engine, well, or as long as my leg holds out. cg It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. Reinhard

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter.

You could also go up to Alaska, across and down through Russia, over to Japan and then on to the South Pacific.  It is a much longer journey, but no 2000 mile over water legs. (I wonder how far the jump to Palau would be, I’ve always wanted to go there…) Brian

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I only show from OAK to PHNL to be 2089 nm that would only be about 10 hrs in the air.

My rounded off 2100 NM was only a paltry 11 NM off from your very accurate 2089!! well within range 300 gal, 1800 lbs, but you would not be flying  more than 5 hours on one engine. cg

It is quite obvious to me that you are an armchair pilot who has never done anything like this before. Your numbers are all wrong, and I hope for your sake that you never try it. You would most certainly get your feet wet. It took me 13 hours in a Baron 58 and 15 in a Twin Bonanza. Your turbos in that Aztec would most likely do very little if anything for you since westbound to HNL most frequently you need to stay at 10K or below lest you catch the prevailing westerlies which are very strong at altitude. So you would do well to get 150K over the water. Reinhard

Response:

I only show from OAK to PHNL to be 2089 nm that would only be about 10 hrs in the air. well within range 300 gal, 1800 lbs, but you would not be flying  more than 5 hours on one engine.   cg First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard

I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!   John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James James, It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter. Reinhard

Response:

What did you assume that I would try it without any  preflight planning?? cg It is quite obvious to me that you are an armchair pilot who has never done anything like this before. Your numbers are all wrong, and I hope for your sake that you never try it. You would most certainly get your feet wet. It took me 13 hours in a Baron 58 and 15 in a Twin Bonanza. Your turbos in that Aztec would most likely do very little if anything for you since westbound to HNL most frequently you need to stay at 10K or below lest you catch the prevailing westerlies which are very strong at altitude. So you would do well to get 150K over the water. Reinhard

Response:

First off, I would have to see that to believe it. Secondly, to fly OAK-HNL in a Turbo Aztec (14 hrs plus 3 hrs reserve), you would carry a lot more weight in fuel than the load you described here. Reinhard I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  

Surely you jest, Doug. Kidding aside, the special flight permit that you get for the overload condition and he temporary fuel tank installation requires you calculate in a 3 hour reserve on transoceanic flights. Things can happen while on such a long flight; the forecast winds can turn out different, you might have equipment problems that cause you to burn more fuel for less airspeed than you had planned, etc. I have had several a couple of occasions when I was glad for the extra fuel. Remember, there is only one time when you can have too much fuel: when you are on fire. Reinhard

Response:

It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!  

How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

Response:

I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks! How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

If you stay below 10k feet, you will frequently find winds that are not too bad. You often find about 10 knots of help down low.. Under no circumstances would I start out with ANY headwind on that leg. Then you could make HNL in about 14-15 hrs in an Aztec. Taking a Baron to Fiji last year, I flew at 6K feet to HNL and did quite well. (13 hrs.) Fitting all that fuel into the plane is really not so difficult. There are professional tanking outfits that install ferry tanks in the cabin in a day. You are certainly correct when you adress the oil issue. It is absolutely essential that you know the oil consumption of your engines. And there is also a way to rig an oil replenishing setup to that you can add oil in flight. Reinhard

Response:

OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James

Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html. He has also published his autobio called "Aiming High", Wakefield Press, South Australia, ISBN 1 86254 424 7. Highly recommended reading for anyone building their own plane. Rgds JD   …… I’d rather be flying ….. John Duncan M.C.N.E.  PPL(A)  J.P.  AOPA(Aust)#42745 EAA#548147 J & J Network Services Pty Ltd P.O. Box 109 Minto N.S.W. 2566 Australia

Response:

My tongue was firmly in cheek.  I don’t fly VFR without at least 1 hour reserve. — Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It doesn’t matter a great deal what the legal reserve is.  Winds over the Pacific on that flight are usually against you.  If you go high at all to minimize fuel consumption the head winds increase.  The Aztec is NOT a fast airplane for its fuel consumption.   To fly that leg without considerably MORE than a 45 minute reserve, is to seriously invite wet feet.  The 3  hour reserve is not bad.  The 14 hours is quite optimistic, in my opinion.  I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks!   John I thought for IFR you only needed 45 min reserve.  – Doug  -  Kingfisher plans are here…Now, about that Garage… …cruising between 150 to 200 miles per hour… Greater cruising speeds are possible, but the size of the earth does not warrent greater speeds. -Igor Sikorsky in 1934

Response:

No idea about a KR2, but you might want to read Sport Aviation (past few issues) and look for the 2 part round the world story by the author and Burt Rutan, who flew their Long EZ’s around the world. Very informative (and nice pictures – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, so its been done before in factory planes, how about homebuilts?  I am considering the KR2, which has an advertised range of 1600sm, can this be extended with additional tanks to the 2100nm required to fly to HNL? James Well Jon Johanson has done it both ways (make that crossed the Pacific … ) in an RV-4 during his round the world trips. Check out his Web site at http://www.mag-net.educ.monash.edu.au/saaa/head.html. He has also published his autobio called "Aiming High", Wakefield Press, South Australia, ISBN 1 86254 424 7. Highly recommended reading for anyone building their own plane.

James, You are considering a monumental task here ol chap, this sought of feat requires a hell of a lot of homework and I would suggest you’re really stretching it in a KR-2. With a large amount of retro-fitting you could possibly carry out this adventure, however the stakes are extremely high! I would also endorse the above, ie read Jon Johannson’s book and while your doing that bare a thought for the planning both technically and enroute that goes into these voyages. You may also wish to contact the "Mick & Dick" of "Round the World Friendship Tour":- Sport Aviation Feb edition Pg 76. For a start, unless you’ve got heaps of "Bucks" behind you, just go build your A/C and enjoy flying it around the "States". Whilst I’ll admit, I don’t have an intermit knowledge of the KR-2 and its weight & balance etc, it is only small by any standards. Its payload excess does not go down well with the number crunching required when you consider such additions as fuel, extra redundancy systems req’d, and ESPECIALLY CONSIDER ENGINE RELIABLITY etc, etc. To say the least, 18 plus hours is a long time to spend in the close confines of a KR-2 cockpit, surrounded by custom built ferry tanks around your ears. I have two buddies that were involved in Ferry Flights across the Pacific in their younger days. One of them did get his feet wet mid Pacific (1200 Nm from nowhere & at night) when the nut on the Alternator pulley worked its way loose. Lucky for him he had spotted a fishing boat a couple of hours before and was able to back track and relocate it. All be it, he was now down to torch and compass. That was in a brand new production A/C as well. Glenn now does his long transcontinental flights the same way I do, the only way:-In style at 43,000 ft. James, whilst your challenge is a commendable one, the golden rule is to keep your feet dry. Best way to do that is travel the South Pacific the same way most of us do, In a 747, 767 etc, and don’t forget you can have the added advantage of sipping champagne or other adult beverages!! If you’re considering going on from HNL to other South Pacific destinations, then you have a hole heap more challenges in front of you. Regards Ray (Just my 2 cents worth) J.

Response:

I don’t know what you are flying but when flying my instructors Turbo Aztec, six full grown american people and topped off I can hold 15,000 on one engine, well, or as long as my leg holds out. cg It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. Reinhard

Response:

How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil.

The Aztec would burn considerably more than 8-10 GPH.  Probably closer to 25 GPH.  So we are talking about over 500 gallons.  The Aztec is a rather slow twin with a pair of 250 HP flat engines.  It is Pipers upscale Apache, just as the Beech Baron is the high power version of the Travelair. John

Response:

What is the availability of av-gas in Russia. I hear that it’s non-existant. D.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I would use something like 18 hours for flight planning purposes in an Aztec.  Then I would add another three hours for reserve.  That looks like about 21 hours of fuel. I think you could get it in, but not without some pretty special ferry tanks! How do you get 21 hours of fuel into an Aztec?  I’m not familiar with the type, but at an avg fuel burn of 8-10 GPH – we’re talking about 168-210 gals. Where would you put it all?  Another question springs to mind – how do you add oil in flight? I’ve seen club aircraft burn as much as a 1/2 qt/hr. The sump would be bone dry after 21 hrs with no additional oil. If you stay below 10k feet, you will frequently find winds that are not too bad. You often find about 10 knots of help down low.. Under no circumstances would I start out with ANY headwind on that leg. Then you could make HNL in about 14-15 hrs in an Aztec. Taking a Baron to Fiji last year, I flew at 6K feet to HNL and did quite well. (13 hrs.) Fitting all that fuel into the plane is really not so difficult. There are professional tanking outfits that install ferry tanks in the cabin in a day. You are certainly correct when you adress the oil issue. It is absolutely essential that you know the oil consumption of your engines. And there is also a way to rig an oil replenishing setup to that you can add oil in flight. Reinhard

Reinhard is exactly right.  You notice in the original post that I did mention that it would take some fancy ferry tanks to get the fuel in! When my airplane flew across the Atlantic from Brazil to Cornwall, they added a special fancy ferry tank.  A 50 gallon drum on chocks where the back seat goes, with a wobble pump to pump fuel up into the wing tank. They recommended that you run the wing tank down to less than a quarter full before pumping fuel up to it.  They said watch the gauges so you do not overfill it and pump fuel overboard.   The also recommended the long distance power setting of 1800 RPM and 23 inches of manifold pressure.  That was supposed to get the fuel consumption down to 14.7 gallons per hour.  That gave a little over eight hours in the air.  At that power setting, you get 100 knots! Still wouldn’t make Honolulu! John

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

James, It is most certainly feasible and is done all the time. Wether done single engine or twin is really no consideration. In some respects, a single may be better than a twin because in a twin you need to carry much more fuel to feed two engines. That second engine does not give you any more chances to remain airborne, if one should fail, until such a time that you are back down to normal weights. During the early phases of the flight you would be so heavy with fuel that one engine could not possibly keep you in the air. The two longest legs are Oakland to Honolulu 2100 NM and from there you have another long leg, either HNL to Majuro, Marshall Islands, or HNL to Tarawa, Republic of Kiribati, the latter one being a good stop, but almost again as far as OAK-HNL. After that you can choose your legs more easily and they are considerably shorter. Reinhard

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James I think someone tried this in a twin.  Her name was Amelia something….. Sorrry, it was too easy to pass on  :-)

Like minds I guess, but I resisted.  Abacus.com has an add-on for MS Flight Simulator that follows her route.    It wasn’t/isn’t an easy flight. John J. Miller

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Da Plane, Boss, Da Plane! (sorry, just couldn’t help myself) John Galban====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

I think someone tried this in a twin.  Her name was Amelia something….. Sorrry, it was too easy to pass on  :-) Jeff Oslick

Response:

I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

Response:

Check out http://www.calle.com/aviation/airports.cgi Allows you to specify departure, destination, range and speed, and displays a nice table and map of the results. Lots of material for dream flights… BTW you probably don’t want a totally deserted island; food, water, fuel, runway and women should be minimum requirements (the website allows you to specify 2 out of these 5 Eric – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have this fantasy of flying to one of them deserted SP islands (Robinson Crusoe Syndrome).  Has anyone tried this in a single engine airplane, is this feasible at all?  Which route would one take? Thanks, James

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Question:

I have recently moved from Utah to Georgia.  Can anyone help with some good places to fish?

Hi Brett, Welcome to Georgia. Let me know what part of the state you’re in and the type of fishing that interests you, and I’m sure I can give you some suggestions. Dave — Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides Home Page http://www.olfart.com

Response:

I have recently moved from Utah to Georgia.  Can anyone help with some good places to fish?

Response:

I have recently moved from Utah to Georgia.  Can anyone help with some good places to fish?

There are a number of places to FF for trout. Not the wide open streams and rivers of the West, but plenty of fishing. Try North Georgia Trout On-line at http://www.efh.com/~ngtrout That should put you on the trail….. -John Carney

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Question:

I will be in Hamilton, Ontario at the end of June. I was wondering if there is any good fly-fishing (doesn’t have to be trout) nearby? cheers, Richard

Response:

I will be in Hamilton, Ontario at the end of June. I was wondering if there is any good fly-fishing (doesn’t have to be trout) nearby?

Good trout in upstream sections of Grand, Credit, and several other SWO rivers, e.g. Saugeen, depending how far you want to travel;  smallmouth bass nearly everywhere.  Make contact if you can with the Izaak Walton FFC, pool of abundant knowledge. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Response:

The Grand River is nearby and has trophy size brown trout in it. It runs by the towns of Fergus and Elora. It was written up in Fly Fisherman last year (September 1995). Neil Houlding is a good guide for the area (519-740-3442). Tell him I sent you. There is a section on the Grand River at the Virtual Fly Shop web site (www.flyshop.com) under their "Riverkeepers" section. Good Luck! Steve Rosenblum Ann Arbor, MI

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The closest good trout stream to you is Whitemans Creek, just outside of Brantford.  Approx.  20 min. away.  Things are coming off and it is a good place to be right now.  And yes the Grand and credit are great as well, just not as close, and not as intimate. Cheers, gp  Donald Phillipson

: I will be in Hamilton, Ontario at the end of June. I was wondering : if there is any good fly-fishing (doesn’t have to be trout) nearby? : Good trout in upstream sections of Grand, Credit, and several other SWO : rivers, e.g. Saugeen, depending how far you want to travel;  smallmouth : bass nearly everywhere.  Make contact if you can with the Izaak Walton : FFC, pool of abundant knowledge. : — : |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | : |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         | — gp

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Thanks to everyone for the information about fly-fishing near Hamilton. I really appreciate it! This is a great group! cheers, Richard

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Question:

discussing a trip to this area for some Atlantic Salmon fishing. We are going to fly into Portland Maine. Any info on best time, lodges, guides, patterns and equipment would be helpful.

1.  You should probably book with a fishing lodge in Labrador.  (You may be legally obliged to, because of lack of roads, rescue teams etc.)  Call the Newfoundland provincial tourist agency in St. John’s. 1B. There are also salmon lodges in Quebec and New Brunswick. 2.  Portland Maine seems the wrong place to start, i.e. has no road links to Labrador and may have no air links either.  You should probably start in either Montreal or St. John’s (on the island of Newfoundland;  Labrador is on the Canadian mainland) the two likely sources of air taxi links to camps in Labrador. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Starting with the correct spelling:-) Anyway, my Dad and I were discussing a trip to this area for some Atlantic Salmon fishing. We are going to fly into Portland Maine. Any info on best time, lodges, guides, patterns and equipment would be helpful. thanx in advance, Tom.

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Question:

A friend of mine just found two pairs of neoprene waders in someone’s garbage.  They had been cut off at the knee with a pair of scissors, but they were cut pretty cleanly, and he has all of the the boot sections. The waders are in mint condition otherwise, and I am of the opinion that if we take them to a seamstress she could sew the legs back on and make the seam waterproof. Has anyone out there ever had to make repairs of a similar (if not so drastic) nature?  Any and all opinions/suggestions are welcome.                                 Thanks,                                 Michael Frank

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A friend of mine just found two pairs of neoprene waders in someone’s garbage.  They had been cut off at the knee with a pair of scissors, but they were cut pretty cleanly, and he has all of the the boot sections. The waders are in mint condition otherwise, and I am of the opinion that if we take them to a seamstress she could sew the legs back on and make the seam waterproof.

Hi Frank-    Clean the edges of the cut and put a liberal coat of Barge cement on each edge and allow to almost dry. Sqeeze the joint together firmly with a pair of non serrated pliers. Allow to dry for a day then paint over the seam (inside and out) with Aquaseal thinned with Cotol. The joint will be stronger than the fabric itself. DO NOT SEW!!!    Ralph —

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writes: A friend of mine just found two pairs of neoprene waders in someone’s garbage.  They had been cut off at the knee with a pair of scissors, but they were cut pretty cleanly, and he has all of the the boot sections. The waders are in mint condition otherwise, and I am of the opinion that if we take them to a seamstress she could sew the legs back on and make the seam waterproof.

DON’T SEW them together!!!  If you do they will always leak.  Any thread you use to sew with will continually open up holes in the neoprene as the waders are used..  That’s why the first neoprene waders didn’t work years ago.   Aquaseal will put the pieces back together very effectively.  Use masking tape on the inside of the leg while applying to keep the Aqua seal from coming through and you’re waders will work fine.  If you forget the tape the aquaseal will glue the insides of the legs together and you will not be able to get it apart.                          Good Luck,                                 Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools

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writes: It depends on how the sewing is done… If they are just surface sitches on one side and then glued, it helps with the strength and alignment. Sitches all the way through will cause problems.

This is true.  It is what is known as *blind stitching*  which adds great strength to a pair of waders.  Blind stitching goes through the nylon top layer into the neoprene of the first piece then into the neoprene of the second piece and back up through the nylon top layer of the second piece. However blind stitching is done with a special machine with a curved needle and to my knowledge this would be real unusual to find with a seamstress as it is unecessary to use blind stitching with "normal " clothes.  Stitching entirely through the neoprene ruins it.                                                            Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools

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Question:

| PS.  If anyone can find a source on the AR/"A River" connection, please post. | It might have been a couple of years ago in "Trout" but I don’t keep my old | issues. | | There was a detailed description in, I think, the (London) Sunday Times, | if your library has copies of that paper.   | | I got the correct publishing town, wrong paper.  Correct reference for a | nice article by David Profumo (presumably the famous David Profumo?) is | the (London) Weekend Telegraph, February 13, 93, Outdoors section, page III. | | Denbigh How do you mean the famous David Profumo? This one is the son of John, the Minister of war who resigned in the great scamndal of 1963, and the author of two novels (the first good the second reportedly very pretentious). He also edited a couple of anthologies of fishing literature, one called "the magic wheel". — Religious Affairs Correspondent | phone +44-71-253-1222 xt 1682 | London, England                 | I’m not paid to have opinions |

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | etc. I didn’t see the movie, so I can’t claim to be an expert, but the info I had was that AR was, and is, really down on fly fishing and especially barbless C&R.  BTW, I didn’t avoid the movie because of this, but rather because I’d hate to see the world’s best book ruined by a Redfordesque movie (cf. "The Natural" and "Milagro Beanfield Wars").  Nope, when I annually read "A River" I won’t have visions, however spectacular, of someone else’s interpretation of the book. Brent PS.  If anyone can find a source on the AR/"A River" connection, please post. It might have been a couple of years ago in "Trout" but I don’t keep my old issues.

There was a detailed description in, I think, the (London) Sunday Times, if your library has copies of that paper.  I’ll see if I can still find a reference somehow, and post if I do.  There is a book on the making of the film, but it isn’t helpful on this. I recommend that you see the film – it reinforced my feelings for the book, and didn’t give any inconsistent interpretations.  I read the book again after seeing the film, and still loved the book.  Redford really did very well. Denbigh

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Well, somebody killed the big trout one of the guys caught toward the end of the movie. Must’ve come from a meat market. (I’ve only seen the movie three times–with no sound, though–while flying cross country :- ) There’s a far-from-realistic attempt at a jumping trout: this huge trout corpse is projected straight out from beneath the water … no kicking or twisting … dead as a door knocker. Why didn’t they just get one (or a few … might need a backup) from a hatchery/fish farm and do it up right? Either way the fish ends up on someone’s table. —

The story takes place around Missoula and the film shot around Bozeman. The word around Missoula is that an unnamed taxidermist in the Bitteroot Valley made a large rainbow model to be used in the movie. If this is true, than that slab you’re referring to may have been just that; a slab. Maybe someday we’ll all go to Universal studios and this trout in the water next to the Jaws model! David Prager                                    (W)206-487-5837 Motorola                                        (H)206-485-4397 Mobile Data Division 19807 Northcreek Parkway                

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | etc. I didn’t see the movie, so I can’t claim to be an expert, but the info I had was that AR was, and is, really down on fly fishing and especially barbless C&R.  BTW, I didn’t avoid the movie because of this, but rather because I’d hate to see the world’s best book ruined by a Redfordesque movie (cf. "The Natural" and "Milagro Beanfield Wars").  Nope, when I annually read "A River" I won’t have visions, however spectacular, of someone else’s interpretation of the book. Brent PS.  If anyone can find a source on the AR/"A River" connection, please post. It might have been a couple of years ago in "Trout" but I don’t keep my old issues. There was a detailed description in, I think, the (London) Sunday Times, if your library has copies of that paper.  I’ll see if I can still find a reference somehow, and post if I do.  There is a book on the making of the film, but it isn’t helpful on this. I recommend that you see the film – it reinforced my feelings for the book, and didn’t give any inconsistent interpretations.  I read the book again after seeing the film, and still loved the book.  Redford really did very well.

Before we start getting too down on Redford I heard that a large portion of the proceeds from the movie went towards a restoration project for a river in Montana.  Anyone that has concern for maintaining our trout streams, and backs it up with cash, is OK in my book. — John Fereira

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Some technical things in the movie were done beautifully.  Powell made bamboo shaped graphite rods to look like the originals,  and even matched all of the rod decorations, windings, etc., and the special lines that would show up on film were spectacular.  

I’ve heard about these rods elsewhere and actually asked about them here once before.  I’ve seen articles for them in fly fishing magazine so apparently they are for sale to the general public.  Has anyone ever tried one?  Powell is actually reasonably close to me.  If I get a chance, I’m going to try to stop by there manufacturing facility on my next trip to the Tahoe area.  I’ve heard nothing but good about the Powell rods. — John Fereira

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The movie is beautiful and no fish are eaten during the film.  Redford did do a lot of work I think to keep the animal rights people happy.  It is a wonderfully filmed movie, great scenery and alot of fly fishing.  Enjoy.

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… Powell made bamboo shaped graphite rods … … apparently they are for sale to the general public …

Shops that carry Powell rods seem to have the bamboo-like versions in stock also.  I last touched one at the HomeWaters Fly Shop in Eugene Oregon. The appearance is impressive, but I didn’t bother to cast it outside.  Seemed a bit heavy (expected), and certainly slower action than a SAGE III (no surprise). BTW – My brother Tim lucked out while working for the Forest Service in Bozeman last year – he was working at the same site where the fishing scenes were filmed.   I forget all the details he mentioned, but I do recall him saying that the actors wore waders underneath their regular clothes. Thomas Gilg

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Before we start getting too down on Redford I heard that a large portion of the proceeds from the movie went towards a restoration project for a river in Montana.

In fact, I think the proceeds were directed toward restoration of the Big Blackfoot River itself, which was the river the Mclean’s considered their "family river" in the story… Fred —         Fred L. Templin

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Practice selective harvest, don’t eat the breeders.

How do you define "breeder?" — -Wayne Trzyna

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Redford had the Humane Society with him at all times when filming fishing scenes, and they seem to have made an excessive effort to avoid "harming" any fish. The main fighting scenes were done with a load of rocks in a plastic bottle tied to the end of the line.  The jumping fish was mechanical.  The "dead fish" in the creel were made of plaster.  When they had a fish on the line for a landing, they had leaders through their mouths, so that no hooks were applied.  Once landed, they were put into highly aerated tanks for recovery.

Ironic, isn’t it, that they went to all this trouble to protect the few trout involved in the making of a film which has probably encouraged thousands of poeple to take up the sport of fishing.  I doubt those thousands are fishing for mechanical fish and or plastic bottles filled with rocks! Of course, the real tradgedy of the film is that thousands of yuppies are buying up land in Montana and building vacation homes.  There goes the habitat.  There goes the neighborhood. — -Wayne Trzyna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | "A River Runs Through It" will be available on videocassette nationwide on | Wednesday May 19. | I have heard from friends who saw it in the theatre that you | never see anyone actually eating a fish in the movie and there is | a disclaimer at the end that states fish were not killed in the | making of the film. | I think Robert Redford went a bit overboard being sensitive to | the animal rightists but I’ll rent it anyways. The cinematography | is supposed to be quite beautiful. Well, somebody killed the big trout one of the guys caught toward the end of the movie. Must’ve come from a meat market. (I’ve only seen the movie three times–with no sound, though–while flying cross country :- ) There’s a far-from-realistic attempt at a jumping trout: this huge trout corpse is projected straight out from beneath the water … no kicking or twisting … dead as a door knocker. Why didn’t they just get one (or a few … might need a backup) from a hatchery/fish farm and do it up right? Either way the fish ends up on someone’s table. Mark Myers                               | phone : 703 758-2725

Redford had the Humane Society with him at all times when filming fishing scenes, and they seem to have made an excessive effort to avoid "harming" any fish. The main fighting scenes were done with a load of rocks in a plastic bottle tied to the end of the line.  The jumping fish was mechanical.  The "dead fish" in the creel were made of plaster.  When they had a fish on the line for a landing, they had leaders through their mouths, so that no hooks were applied.  Once landed, they were put into highly aerated tanks for recovery. It is unclear to me whether the humane society were there by demand or at Redford’s request. Some technical things in the movie were done beautifully.  Powell made bamboo shaped graphite rods to look like the originals,  and even matched all of the rod decorations, windings, etc., and the special lines that would show up on film were spectacular.  The filming of some of the casts, particularly the one long roll cast across the Gallatin, certainly deserved the Oscar that was won for cinematography. I’m probably biased by my love for the local rivers and scenery that became such an important part of the film, but I highly recommend it, particularly for those who fly fish or for those who wonder why others fly fish. Meanwhile, the Mother’s Day caddis hatch was better this year on the Yellowstone River than I’ve ever seen.  It is intimidating to see a large river with trout rising everywhere.  I had one of the best two dry fly fishing evenings that I have ever had (I once caught the peak of the stone- fly hatch on the Gardner).  Heavy rains have screwed up our rivers for the last couple of weeks, and the Gallatin is expected to flood tonight. The early runoff means that the rivers should be in good shape for the stonefly hatch this year. Denbigh

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Ironic, isn’t it, that they went to all this trouble to protect the few trout involved in the making of a film which has probably encouraged thousands of poeple to take up the sport of fishing.  I doubt those thousands are fishing for mechanical fish and or plastic bottles filled with rocks! Of course, the real tradgedy of the film is that thousands of yuppies are buying up land in Montana and building vacation homes.  There goes the habitat.  There goes the neighborhood. -Wayne Trzyna

I think Wayne has  a good point and I think you only need to look as far back as the 80’s to see the damage done by greed and yuppies.   We have seen the damage from overdevelopment and marketing of our natural resources and yet the developers keep on coming to the "new" sites.  They will infiltrate your vast meadows and peaceful land because people have nowhere else to go.  They are also driven by the fact that you can buy some peaceful property, build on it, save taxes on your vacation home, and sell it for a decent profit in the future.  I think this will continue in the future because it is those people who made the money in the 80’s that can afford such moves to the "wilderness." I think there is little optimism for preserving our natural resources when every lake near a major urban area becomes privatized or rotten with stench from powerboaters and water rats.   Conservation is not pushed and is not observed by the mainstream, I just thank God that there are some out there who are champions for nature.  Without them, we would end up like Brazil. Kevin "lost in Illinois"

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I would have to agree that the movie is one of the better book-to-screen adaptations I have seen. Sure, it’s a bit sloppy on the sentimentality in parts were the book was just poetical, but…well, it’s a pretty good film. I have re-read the book twice since seeing the film with no ill effects. BlackBearBrownBear        San Francisco, California Typesetting, Writing, Design, & Computer Graphics

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Actually, his didn’t happen because of the film; in fact, it’s been going on at least 10 or 15 years.  And I wouldn’t consider some of those millionaire estates as the vacation spots of a simple yuppy (Whatever the heck a yuppy is).  Land prices on the Rt 93 corridor north and south of Missoula are phenomenal compared to those of a huge urban center such as Denver… how do local people afford it?

I can tell you from personal experience that they simply don’t do it. You move away for however long it takes to go back home and start over.                                         an expatriate David Prager                                    (W)206-487-5837 Motorola                                        (H)206-485-4397 Mobile Data Division 19807 Northcreek Parkway                

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PS.  If anyone can find a source on the AR/"A River" connection, please post. It might have been a couple of years ago in "Trout" but I don’t keep my old issues. There was a detailed description in, I think, the (London) Sunday Times, if your library has copies of that paper.  

I got the correct publishing town, wrong paper.  Correct reference for a nice article by David Profumo (presumably the famous David Profumo?) is the (London) Weekend Telegraph, February 13, 93, Outdoors section, page III. Denbigh

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                                        …collections of 20 to 40 arce lots, fortified with buck or barbed wire fences, posted, and each with a tinker-toy factory log cabin in the center.

You’ve just seen the future – and it sucks. And does anyone think these people are really concerned with protecting the river and it’s surrounds, or just their petty little chunk? The practice of "fencing out" (vs "fencing in") is rapidly destroying what was once the primary allure of the west- wide open spaces. Even fence haters have been forced to close off their property by litigation paranoia – it’s just too risky from a liability standpoint to let people roam freely over your property. I was asked recently to leave a farm pond I’ve been fishing off an on for over 30 years. The owner was pressured by his insurance carrier into closing it off. We need major reform in the fencing laws. Barbred wire is for keeping cattle in – not for keeping people out.

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Wayne Trzyna writes: Of course, the real tradgedy of the film is that thousands of yuppies are buying up land in Montana and building vacation homes.  There goes the habitat.  There goes the neighborhood.

Actually, his didn’t happen because of the film; in fact, it’s been going on at least 10 or 15 years.  And I wouldn’t consider some of those millionaire estates as the vacation spots of a simple yuppy (Whatever the heck a yuppy is).  Land prices on the Rt 93 corridor north and south of Missoula are phenomenal compared to those of a huge urban center such as Denver… how do local people afford it?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Redford had the Humane Society with him at all times when filming fishing scenes, and they seem to have made an excessive effort to avoid "harming" any fish. The main fighting scenes were done with a load of rocks in a plastic bottle tied to the end of the line.  The jumping fish was mechanical.  The "dead fish" in the creel were made of plaster.  When they had a fish on the line for a landing, they had leaders through their mouths, so that no hooks were applied.  Once landed, they were put into highly aerated tanks for recovery. Ironic, isn’t it, that they went to all this trouble to protect the few trout involved in the making of a film which has probably encouraged thousands of poeple to take up the sport of fishing.  I doubt those thousands are fishing for mechanical fish and or plastic bottles filled with rocks! Of course, the real tradgedy of the film is that thousands of yuppies are buying up land in Montana and building vacation homes.  There goes the habitat.  There goes the neighborhood. -Wayne Trzyna

Sorry, I see it differently.  I believe that the more people who learn to fly fish only increases the pool of people who will join the battle to protect the waters and land through which they flow.  I don’t share your cynicism.  Perhaps I’m just an optimist (a naive cynic).  As for houses, I don’t automatically think it is a bad idea.  Given the pervasive "not in my backyard" mentality, perhaps people will pay attention to what happens to our dwindling frontiers.  If people had vacation homes near Yucca Mtn, do you think that there would be proposals for nuclear storage there?  I doubt it.  I know if I bought a house in Montana (whether it is my primary residence or a vacation home) I sure as hell would pay more attention to planning boards and zoning restrictions that would adversely affect the area near my home.  I would work to protect and improve the quality of the area that made it such a beautiful movie to watch. I am not saying that all development is good and all new fishers are going to protect trout quality water but I think your assertions are a tad on the pessimistic side     + Steve — Steve Hammond                            * ^ // * /     Scientific Computing Division             /* /  _][     National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, CO     ____

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Of course, the real tradgedy of the film is that thousands of yuppies are buying up land in Montana and building vacation homes.  There goes the habitat.  There goes the neighborhood.

I returned to the Big Hole region of Montana last year and was horrified at the number of new vacation homes built in the last 4 years.  Ditto several other areas in Montana. Trying to reach several creeks I knew of, I ran into various locked gates and "keep out" signs.   Many places I went, collections of 20 to 40 arce lots, fortified with buck or barbed wire fences, posted, and each with a tinker-toy factory log cabin in the center.   In many cases, negotiating the maze of ownership to reach public land was difficult. To make matters worse, some seek to "improve" their holdings.  Though not as bad in Montana, here in Oregon, people aren’t content to have just an immaculate house, but they have to sanitize the surrounding environment, plant lawns that run into the riverside, etc.  The McKenzie and North Santiam Rivers are good examples – float by house after house, looking at massive living room windows, often catching the glare of landowners who feel like you’re invading their world. Thomas Gilg

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"A River Runs Through It" will be available on videocassette nationwide on Wednesday May 19. A representative from Blockbuster Video said that it will be available for rental or purchase when the outlets open for business on Wednesday May 19. The purchase price will start at somewhere close to $100.00.  They explained that after 4 to 6 months, the retail purchase price will drop to a standard $29.95 or less.   Frank

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "A River Runs Through It" will be available on videocassette nationwide on Wednesday May 19. I have heard from friends who saw it in the theatre that you never see anyone actually eating a fish in the movie and there is a disclaimer at the end that states fish were not killed in the making of the film. I think Robert Redford went a bit overboard being sensitive to the animal rightists but I’ll rent it anyways. The cinematography is supposed to be quite beautiful. — /  Academic Computing Services      / VOICE:    (403)220-7937 /  University of Calgary            / MESSAGE:  (403)220-6201 /  Calgary, Alberta CANADA  T2N 1N4 / FAX:      (403)282-9199

It is likely that the sensitivity was not to animal rights types but to fly fisherfolk, many of whom practice C&R, not in deference to animal rights but to resource conservation.   Practice selective harvest, don’t eat the breeders. Remember:  Fishing is NOT a matter of life and death.               It is much more important than that! Bryan Call (719)590-5772  |All opinions expressed here are mine & mine alone. Hewlett-Packard Co.       |  But then, I’ve never let that stop me before.     P.O. BOX 2197             |    Many men go fishing all their lives without Colorado Springs, Co 80901|    knowing that it is not fish they are after.

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| | "A River Runs Through It" will be available on videocassette nationwide on | Wednesday May 19. | | I have heard from friends who saw it in the theatre that you | never see anyone actually eating a fish in the movie and there is | a disclaimer at the end that states fish were not killed in the | making of the film. | | I think Robert Redford went a bit overboard being sensitive to | the animal rightists but I’ll rent it anyways. The cinematography | is supposed to be quite beautiful. | | — | /  Academic Computing Services      / VOICE:    (403)220-7937 | /  University of Calgary            / MESSAGE:  (403)220-6201 | /  Calgary, Alberta CANADA  T2N 1N4 / FAX:      (403)282-9199 Well, somebody killed the big trout one of the guys caught toward the end of the movie. Must’ve come from a meat market. (I’ve only seen the movie three times–with no sound, though–while flying cross country :- ) There’s a far-from-realistic attempt at a jumping trout: this huge trout corpse is projected straight out from beneath the water … no kicking or twisting … dead as a door knocker. Why didn’t they just get one (or a few … might need a backup) from a hatchery/fish farm and do it up right? Either way the fish ends up on someone’s table. — Mark Myers                               | phone : 703 758-2725 Visix Software Inc.                   | fax   : 703 758 0233 Reston, VA  22091                    |

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Well, somebody killed the big trout one of the guys caught toward

the end of the movie. Must’ve come from a meat market. (I’ve only seen the movie three times–with no sound, though–while flying cross country :- ) There’s a

far-from-realistic attempt at a jumping trout: this huge trout corpse is projected straight

out from beneath the water … no kicking or twisting … dead as a door knocker. Why

didn’t they just get one (or a few … might need a backup) from a hatchery/fish farm and do

it up right? Either way the fish ends up on someone’s table.

Someone might correct me on this, but I think I heard/read that they used a mechanical trout for the shots where they wanted a moving fish. They must have done a good job if they could deceive us fishermen?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | "A River Runs Through It" will be available on videocassette nationwide on | Wednesday May 19. | | I have heard from friends who saw it in the theatre that you | never see anyone actually eating a fish in the movie and there is | a disclaimer at the end that states fish were not killed in the | making of the film. | | I think Robert Redford went a bit overboard being sensitive to | the animal rightists but I’ll rent it anyways. The cinematography | is supposed to be quite beautiful. | Well, somebody killed the big trout one of the guys caught toward the end of the movie. Must’ve come from a meat market. (I’ve only seen the movie three times–with no sound, though–while flying cross country :- ) There’s a far-from-realistic attempt at a jumping trout: this huge trout corpse is projected straight out from beneath the water … no kicking or twisting … dead as a door knocker. Why didn’t they just get one (or a few … might need a backup) from a hatchery/fish farm and do it up right? Either way the fish ends up on someone’s table. —

Mark, I’m pretty sure that if this trout didn’t look alive, it was because it never was.  There was some discussion of the making of this movie in a TU publication I believe.  The AR folks (of which Redfield may be one) didn’t want any live fish in the movie, so there they made a mechanical one ala "Jaws" and faked it.   I didn’t see the movie, so I can’t claim to be an expert, but the info I had was that AR was, and is, really down on fly fishing and especially barbless C&R.  BTW, I didn’t avoid the movie because of this, but rather because I’d hate to see the world’s best book ruined by a Redfordesque movie (cf. "The Natural" and "Milagro Beanfield Wars").  Nope, when I annually read "A River" I won’t have visions, however spectacular, of someone else’s interpretation of the book. Brent PS.  If anyone can find a source on the AR/"A River" connection, please post. It might have been a couple of years ago in "Trout" but I don’t keep my old issues. — Brent J. Danielson                                  Iowa State University                                                       Ames, IA 50011-3221                                                              515-294-5248

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