Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now I know that graphite blanks have a *backbone* or *spine* and the line guides are suppose to be lined up in some relative position to that spine, I have long forgotten the details. My first question: Is it possible that the second time around I did not get the guides correctly on the blank? Yes, if you never splined the original or the new tip. How can I check? I’m sure it should match the way it was done on the butt section. Hold the rod out straight (parallel to the ground) and flex it up and down.  When it moves straight up and down, the spline is either on the top or the bottom.  If you notice that the tip and rest of the rod seem to be "out of sync," rotate the tip and see if you can get an obvious straight up and down.

Just to clarify, when you _attempt_ to flex the rod in a vertical plane, if it actually moves slightly off from straight up and down, the spline is not in the vertical plane.  When the spline is in the vertical plane, the rod will move straight up and down, and you then know that the spline is either on the top or bottom. TC, R

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It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit! /daytripper (!)

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It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit!

Er, actually, it’s a poTAto POtato thing…both are widely used, and really, both make about as much sense as the other.  Remember that although there is only one "high point" on the rod, it affects it in a plane. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -/daytripper (!)

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It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit!

How do you know that? I’ve seen the both words used depending on who’s doing the writing. Clemens uses spline in all three of his books on rod building, for example. Willi

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It’s SPINE, not SPLINE, dammit! How do you know that? I’ve seen the both words used depending on who’s doing the writing. Clemens uses spline in all three of his books on rod building, for example.

I’m pretty sure that’s where I picked it up, because IIRC the older guys I originally learned rod "making" from used older bamboo terms like "strong"/"weak flat," "crown(ed)," etc.  I can’t remember if they used "spline," "spine," or either. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

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Now I know that graphite blanks have a *backbone* or *spine* and the line guides are suppose to be lined up in some relative position to that spine, I have long forgotten the details.

Have a look here; http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/graphite/part7.html My first question: Is it possible that the second time around I did not get the guides correctly on the blank? How can I check? I’m sure it should match the way it was done on the butt section. If I find that I did do it incorrectly, can I fix the rod? How would I remove the old guides without damaging the blank?

Usually yes. It depends how you put the guides on. How do I find the correct place to put new ones on the blank?

See the URL above. TL MC

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Just to clarify, when you _attempt_ to flex the rod in a vertical plane, if it actually moves slightly off from straight up and down, the spline is not in the vertical plane.  When the spline is in the vertical plane, the rod will move straight up and down, and you then know that the spline is either on the top or bottom.

Please clarify, how do I flex the rod? Do I just wiggle it up an down or just press it up against something to bend it down? Hope that doesn’t seem like a silly question. Thanks, Russell

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Now I know that graphite blanks have a *backbone* or *spine* and the line guides are suppose to be lined up in some relative position to that spine, I have long forgotten the details. Have a look here; http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/graphite/part7.html

Thanks for the link. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the link: How do you get it right? Simple, you locate the spine of the blank. To do this, place the tip of the rod blank on the floor, hold the butt end with one hand and apply some moderate pressure to the middle of the blank with the index finger of the other hand. With the tip of the blank bent, turn the rod with the hand that

Question:

Man, that does sound like a fun technique! Here, fishy, fishy… john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My kennel manager is on vacation, so lots of work for me, but I have been getting out for an hour or two after dinner. Fishing has been good and I’ve come across something I find interesting. At sunset, there are large numbers of spinners (I’m guessing they’re spinners but I haven’t been able to catch one) flying just over the surface occasionally skimming it. There are also some large Mayfly duns and a small Mayfly duns on the surface. There are a few splashy rises from fish chasing emergers but by far the majority of the "risers" are fish jumping clear out of the water to snag one of the spinners flying over the surface. I’ve seen this on an occasional basis, but some of the fish are doing this from a set feeding station and are jumping for the flies on a regular basis. This includes some decent fish. They totally ignore any of the duns that drift by. The flies are only about a size 16/18, so this jumping doesn’t seem "energy efficient" but me, but I’m no fish. I’ve been able to catch a few of them swinging soft hackles. I’ve also caught a some on a dry or emerger tied on an upper a bloodknot dropper with a weighted nymph below. The weighted nymph serves as an anchor and by holding the rod high, the fly on the dropper can be made to skim the surface, stay above it or bounce on the surface. It’s the closest I can come to imitating the hovering flies. It’s been moderately effective with lots of missed fish jumping at the fly but it’s a fun technique. Willi

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……The flies are only about a size 16/18, so this jumping doesn’t seem "energy efficient" but me, but I’m no fish……

I suspect the energy expenditure is not as great as you might think. Fish are streamlined.  Putting on a short burst of speed which will carry them out of the water probably doesn’t cost them a great deal of effort.  The fact that they do so frequently for what seems a small reward bears suggests it is energy efficient. Wolfgang

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Willi    Try dapping.  Get some unwaxed dental floss (or silk floss, I prefer sky blue, the fish seem to ignore it) and cut about six 8 foot pieces.  Lay ‘em out side-by-side and knot the ends together.  Put a 3 foot tippet on one end and tie the other end to your fly line.  Get the longest pole you have and wait for a little bit of a wind.  The floss works as sail and you can skitter the fly over the surface of just above the surface like a hovering insect.  I’ve only caught two fish with the fly in the air but its a trip (okay, I snagged a couple more).  You just let the fish set the hook on itself.  Your natural reaction is to pull it away, don’t move.  Bigger the fly, the more lines of floss and vice versa.  You can use this technique while hiding in bushes on the bank. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

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Willi   Try dapping.  Get some unwaxed dental floss (or silk floss, I prefer sky blue, the fish seem to ignore it) and cut about six 8 foot pieces.  Lay ‘em out side-by-side and knot the ends together.  Put a 3 foot tippet on one end and tie the other end to your fly line.  Get the longest pole you have and wait for a little bit of a wind.  The floss works as sail and you can skitter the fly over the surface of just above the surface like a hovering insect.  I’ve only caught two fish with the fly in the air but its a trip (okay, I snagged a couple more).  You just let the fish set the hook on itself.  Your natural reaction is to pull it away, don’t move.  Bigger the fly, the more lines of floss and vice versa.  You can use this technique while hiding in bushes on the bank.

        this is the weirdest damn place i have ever been.         yfitons wayno

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My kennel manager is on vacation, so lots of work for me, but I have been getting out for an hour or two after dinner. Fishing has been good and I’ve come across something I find interesting. At sunset, there are large numbers of spinners (I’m guessing they’re spinners but I haven’t been able to catch one) flying just over the surface occasionally skimming it. There are also some large Mayfly duns and a small Mayfly duns on the surface. There are a few splashy rises from fish chasing emergers but by far the majority of the "risers" are fish jumping clear out of the water to snag one of the spinners flying over the surface. I’ve seen this on an occasional basis, but some of the fish are doing this from a set feeding station and are jumping for the flies on a regular basis. This includes some decent fish. They totally ignore any of the duns that drift by. The flies are only about a size 16/18, so this jumping doesn’t seem "energy efficient" but me, but I’m no fish. I’ve been able to catch a few of them swinging soft hackles. I’ve also caught a some on a dry or emerger tied on an upper a bloodknot dropper with a weighted nymph below. The weighted nymph serves as an anchor and by holding the rod high, the fly on the dropper can be made to skim the surface, stay above it or bounce on the surface. It’s the closest I can come to imitating the hovering flies. It’s been moderately effective with lots of missed fish jumping at the fly but it’s a fun technique.   Willi

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Question:

_____  There is someone that makes those things but I can’t remember the Company’s name.  Anyone have a clue? — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

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_____  There is someone that makes those things but I can’t remember the Company’s name.  Anyone have a clue?

We certainly know who doesn’t….

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_____  There is someone that makes those things but I can’t remember the Company’s name.  Anyone have a clue? —

Orvis. Dave LaCourse

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_____  There is someone that makes those things but I can’t remember the Company’s name.  Anyone have a clue? — Orvis. Dave LaCourse

_____ Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggguuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhh! — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

_____  There is someone that makes those things but I can’t remember the Company’s name.  Anyone have a clue?

Check out Stormy Seas at http://www.stormyseas.com/vests.html These folks make awesome products.  Read the history of this company– the founder went overboard into the Bering Sea in November.  He survived (a small miracle) and founded this company so that more could also survive similar situations.  LOTS of North Pacific commercial fishermen wear Stormy Seas jackets. The vests and jackets have a bladder inside that is inflated by pulling on a chest patch that is attached to a CO2 cartridge.  The benefit is a vest or jacket that is not bulky but has a built in life vest.  There is also a fill tube that can be used to inflate the vest by mouth. BTW, these make for a great joke at the bar…  I’ve seen ‘green’ fishermen have their cord yanked and their jacket explode into a life vest.  The response never fails to amuse. Tom no longer working at sea Before you buy.

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Question:

i like fester’s sense of humor and great bulkwark against the adam and steve crowd

I saw the Titrantic movie but thought it was too long.

what about tantric religion? oh and here are some websites on sex and religion:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=sex+and+religion&d=y&za=and&h=c&… 0 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

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and the former baptist looking into episcopal church says, "gentleman PLEASE! more decorum!" on sodomy: yes quigle, you can "be episcopal and be gay" guess what? over 30 christian denominations have active gay movements in them..even the muslim religion now has one. Peter Zimmerman

Fester thinks you should go back to the bath house and quit trying to pollute religion with your gross sexual perversions. If you want to be religious fine, if you want to be a pervert fine. But don’t try to pervert religion with your gross sexual perversion.

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I saw the Titrantic movie but thought it was too long.

what about tantric religion? oh and here are some websites on sex and religion:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=sex+and+religion&d=y&za=and&h=c&… 0 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

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what about tantric religion? oh and here are some websites on sex and religion: http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=sex+and+religion&d=y&za=and&h=c&… Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

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Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up?   I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker.

My thoughts exactly.  The Episcopal Church I know is one where God is worshipped, and love of God and neighbor are, again and again, brought to our attention as the two great commandments.   And it’s a place where people of widely diverse understandings get together and are willing to discuss the hard questions in an atmosphere of mutual respect and the love of Christ.  It is a place where there is an almost quixotic insistence that ALL Christians share a common faith.  And a place where, once the discussion ends, we all wish each other peace, and kneel (or stand) at a common table and partake of Christ. This place seems to be endless sniping and name-calling.  Absolutely the opposite of what this church is. No wonder we confess our sins three times a day.

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Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian

Nope, I heard it here, we can be totally depraved sodomites, and as long as we "pray the same" we’re all Episcopalians!!!! Fester, A Real Episcopalian

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Fester Quigle, says… Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian Nope, I heard it here, we can be totally depraved sodomites, and as long as we "pray the same" we’re all Episcopalians!!!! Fester, A Real Episcopalian

Go to Dallas!

Response:

Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up? I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian

Having contributed to at least one of the threads that you find offensive, I would like to say that other Episcopalians, whether they are Evangelicals (which I am NOT) or conservative traditionalists (which I AM) have as much right to discuss topics of interest to them within this newsgroup as you do to make the outlandish assertion that only you and people who think as you do should set the agenda in each and every thread.  What an ego!!!  I’ll keep you in mind at evening prayer services today. Regards

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up? I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian Having contributed to at least one of the threads that you find offensive, I would like to say that other Episcopalians, whether they are Evangelicals (which I am NOT) or conservative traditionalists (which I AM) have as much right to discuss topics of interest to them within this newsgroup as you do to make the outlandish assertion that only you and people who think as you do should set the agenda in each and every thread.  What an ego!!!  I’ll keep you in mind at evening prayer services today. Regards

Bruce, dahling, will you be passing this poisonous prayer at the Church of the Heavenlty Taste, where there is wine list at communion? Be sure to try the traditional St. James Stanton Port with the Stilton flavored hosts. You’ll want to go back for seconds! See you there, SON O GOD

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up? I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian Having contributed to at least one of the threads that you find offensive, I would like to say that other Episcopalians, whether they are Evangelicals (which I am NOT) or conservative traditionalists (which I AM) have as much right to discuss topics of interest to them within this newsgroup as you do to make the outlandish assertion that only you and people who think as you do should set the agenda in each and every thread.  What an ego!!!  I’ll keep you in mind at evening prayer services today. Regards Bruce, dahling, will you be passing this poisonous prayer at the Church of the Heavenlty Taste, where there is wine list at communion? Be sure to try the traditional St. James Stanton Port with the Stilton flavored hosts. You’ll want to go back for seconds! See you there, SON O GOD

Little Willy Wantland sez….  "Be sure to ask for the genuine Eau Claire, Wisconsin Stilton   flavored hosts. Do not accept any substitutes!"

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Bruce, dahling, will you be passing this poisonous prayer at the Church of the Heavenlty Taste, where there is wine list at communion? Be sure to try the traditional St. James Stanton Port with the Stilton flavored hosts. You’ll want to go back for seconds!

Tsk, tsk, tsk.  How little  Son O God understands of us Episcopalians!  We hold services only at the most upscale of churches – mine is the Church of the 18th Hole – and of course we would not deign to use anything other than the finest Bordeau vintages and biscotti at communion. bokononist — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

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Tsk, tsk, tsk.  How little  Son O God understands of us Episcopalians! We hold services only at the most upscale of churches – mine is the Church of the 18th Hole – and of course we would not deign to use anything other than the finest Bordeau vintages and biscotti at communion.

bokononist – old pal!  It’s been a long time!!  How’s about another round of golf next time you’re in town? See you at the Church of the Hole-in-One! By the way, you still haven’t paid up your debt from our last game. Regards

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What a cheap use of sarcasm…you two enjoy youselves on the links!!!  I’ll fly fish and thank God I’m there!  Peace to you all!!

We’re related. Regards

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tsk, tsk, tsk.  How little  Son O God understands of us Episcopalians! We hold services only at the most upscale of churches – mine is the Church of the 18th Hole – and of course we would not deign to use anything other than the finest Bordeau vintages and biscotti at communion. bokononist – old pal!  It’s been a long time!!  How’s about another round of golf next time you’re in town? See you at the Church of the Hole-in-One! By the way, you still haven’t paid up your debt from our last game.

What a cheap use of sarcasm…you two enjoy youselves on the links!!!  I’ll fly fish and thank God I’m there!  Peace to you all!!

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Little Willy Wantland sez….  "Be sure to ask for the genuine Eau Claire, Wisconsin Stilton   flavored hosts. Do not accept any substitutes!"

You CAN do better than that, I hope?  At this rate – you would not qualify for admission to a Mississippi Baptist high school (shudderat the thought).  You are welcome to try again, however. bokononist — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.

Response:

and the former baptist looking into episcopal church says, "gentleman PLEASE! more decorum!" on sodomy: yes quigle, you can "be episcopal and be gay" guess what? over 30 christian denominations have active gay movements in them..even the muslim religion now has one. Peter Zimmerman The "Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance"  provide accurate information on various religions,  and expose groundless religious hatred.  Web site http://www.religioustolerance.org

Response:

Will The Real Episcopalian please stand up?    I have been lurking here for a short time and this is my first posting. Nearly all the threads I have followed here sound far from episcopalian. eg. jehovah witness prosoletyzing spam eg. creation vs. evolution, this is not a problem for anglicans. eg.  "religious"  right wing rantings about PRESIDENT Clinton, and "sodomites" eg.  discussions about the writings of Tim LaHaye,  not exactly Richard Hooker. Please, spammers go elsewhere and allow REAL Episcopalians discuss their church and faith and practice in peace. thank you,  A Real Episcopalian

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Question:

Hi all, I may be taking a trip to Jamaica in the late winter and was wondering if there was any good flyshing there.  Anyone have any thoughts? laird v

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no body in jamaica knows it, but the island is surrounded by narrow flats seperatedf rom the ocean by reef not that far from the "beach". There are tons of rivers emptying into the ocean as well. I think its an undiscovered opportunity to check out and i know there are tarpon around. of course, it depends on where you’re going

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Question:

Im being hauled up to a wedding this weekend in Iron Mtn, MI. Anyone know of an accessible stream to fly fish in.  Ive got all morning Saturday and Sunday. I’d like to make this worthwhile. Please post or reply to below. — Any company and/or person sending ‘junk’ mail, comonly refered to as ‘SPAM’, to the above email address to promote or endorse any service or product that was not intially requested by the holder of the above email address agrees to the receipt of up to 20 MEG of random and possibly infected mail or files.

Response:

Im being hauled up to a wedding this weekend in Iron Mtn, MI. Anyone know of an accessible stream to fly fish in.  Ive got all morning Saturday and Sunday. I’d like to make this worthwhile.

Actually, virtually every creek and river has trout in it.  When you go to buy a license in Wisconsin, you will receive a trout waters map showing all streams with trout in them.   Bring some Griffith’s Gnats, Blue-Wing Olives and a few Caddis’ along with whatever nymphs you like and enjoy. Jon Russell FlyFish Minnesota

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Question:

Yep. Steve

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: I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you                        <clip<clip<clip : has since been taken over by animal "rights" types. : For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm : "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of : 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington : state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each : campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional : stewardship of state wildlife managers. : Americans for Medical Progress, the key national research advocacy group : that monitors the animal rights agenda, predicted the HSUS ballot          <clip<clip<clip : and laboratory animal issues and other issues that are appropriate" in the : future."… There was an initiative here in Michigan this last election dealing with the taking of bear over bait or with hounds.  The initiative would have banned both practices. When I found out what was  behind this initiative, it became clear to me it was nothing more than an anti-hunting measure.  The person behind getting it on the ballot claimed it would help bear hunting because it would license more hunters to get the same harvest.  Well, it would also have banned bear hunting during anytime in which baiting for any other specie was allowed. Since we have a deer season that runs from October first to the end of of December, there wouldn’t really be any time to have a bear season. There were a couple of other issues that indicated to me that this whole thing was vacant of anything substantive and was just an anti-hunting measure. Fortunately, it was defeated *SOUNDLY* and another measure passed that gives wildlife management to the professionals. PETA and apparently HSUS supported the initiative. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky Michigan Tech University

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This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell you. Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor. Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined. Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.     This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

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This is an end result of a society that was tied to the land and understood that as a hunk of sentient protoplasm we ALWAYS have an impact on our environment in conflict with a new majority of voters that understand the interplay of man and nature due to their intimate knowlege born of countless Disney live action cartoons. Baiting bears is by no means a sure and easy enterprise as anyone who has tried it will tell

you. Just go to a garbage dump and try to avoid tripping over them Certainly not a ‘fish in a barrel’ sport as it has been represented. Cougars, as all animals, will populate until an external force checks the population growth. This force has been a limited amount of range and man.

More and more and more and more and more limited range all the time. Now that man has been removed from the equation that will leave range as the controlling factor.

Too bad the wildlife managers don’t have a say about where the next subdivision is going to go up. Since the man made hunting pressure is off, you should by your argument have the best of both worlds.  Wildlife populations will go through the roof, so you will practicly trip over critters without the use of baits.  Why, you’ll probably be able to hunt them from your living room window in that new condo development that went up in what used to be a forest.  Deer suffer from years of poor forage, ducks suffer from dry years that limit the breeding and rearing areas. It has been proven for many years that upland bird populations flucuate due to environmental factors and that sport hunting has little effect. All of these studies have been paid for with HUNTING dollars

This is supposed to convince me that hunting has no affect on populations? I generally agree that hunters put far more into environment and habitat preservation than the public is aware of, but come on!  Get some more weight behind your citation of authorities.  Does the concept of scueing and bias mean anything to you?  and the labor of untold hunters have improved more habitat than all the animal rights groups combined.

Generalizations mean nothing and lead nowhere! Through our license fees, duck stamp funds and Pittman-Robertson monies we employ, and gladly, thousands of professional  game managers to help us improve the number,quality and health of the game that we pursue.   It is astonishing to me that I would have to conduct a wildlife biology 101 session to defend my right to pursue in a regulated fashion game animals and birds that owe their existence and health to a population of dedicated hunters like me.  

Its really nice that you are so broad minded(sarcasm dripping)  What do I have to teach you about biology to make YOU understand that having a lot of a selected species to shoot and kill is by no means an indicator of a healthy environment.  It just means you’ve done an excellent job of elliminating a lot of diversity to make room for your particular favorite species, based solely on what you like to shoot and NOT on what is good for the environment.  If this was not the case, we would not be loosing over 200 species per year to extinction.   This ‘rose colored’ view of nature that has been promoted by many animal groups is more than just irrational, it is incorrect! As with the old growth controversy DAMN THE FACTS, I WANT TO FEEL GOOD!! Leave game animal management to people who have at least some basis for their opinion other than what they are fed by Hollywood. A.J.Thramer

What rose coloured view are you talking about?  What is irrational?  Be specific man!  Its pretty hard to argue a point that has never been made. I really don’t know what your background is, but I find it really, really repugnant that you can talk about generalizations like hunters having some superior knowledge and understanding of the environment and talk about Old Growth Forest issues as being contraversial.  Its not a cotraversy, its a tragedy!   You want to let the last bits and remanents to be cut down and managed? What happened to all the other 95% that we cut down and managed?  Where were your experts then?  Probably looking over the blue prints for their new condo, that’s where! Its this kind of lame, unfocussed hogwash that creates the kind of polarity that keeps people from doing what’s right instead of doing whats best for themselves. Just MHO Mike

Response:

In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.   Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.   Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do it for sport, and it generates revenues. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers. For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: alt.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: AM Construction   In fact, the initiative did not outlaw baiting or hound hunting for   bear.  It just made it illegal for sport hunters to use these   techniques.  It’s perfectly OK for govt. employees and "researchers" and   presumably AR activists to use bait to attract bears.     Govt. agents are still allowed to use bait and hounds to kill bears.     Seems like it’s only cruel and barbaric to use hounds or bait if you do   it for sport, and it generates revenues.   Steve

OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds.   Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations. In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

And don’t get caught with a trap. I hear that the next election, they are going after using hooks on fish. Paul

Response:

First of all, I actually read the initiative.  Unfortunately I don’t have a copy here in front of me, so this is from memory.  One of the local papers had an editorial slamming the initiative because it didn’t "Outlaw" the practices, just made them illegal for common folk. The text of the initiative stated (not a quote, but the gist) that Wildlife agents or their assigns could use bait or hounds to hunt down and kill problem bears.  Read "bears that are annoying people".  Sort of gives the lie to the idea that the practices are just tooooo barbaric and unfair. It stated that bait could be used to attract bears for "research purposes," whatever that means.  (But I thought that we didn’t want the bears to get used to people feeding them…) Anyone who has ever hunted bear in Western Washington brush knows that the traditional method of controlling bear numbers (sport hunting) just went out the window.  Incidental kills simply will not keep pace with population growth.  Ain’t no way you’re going to be able to target an area and reduce the bear population without resorting to bait and/or hounds. Well, maybe poisoned poodles……no wait, that’s bait…… Of course we could mount a multimillion dollar campaign to supply the bruins with condoms. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK.  I’ve no clue why, but I’ll take the bait.  The initiative made it illegal to take bears using bait and/or hounds. Would you care to tell us where in the hell "Govt. agents", "researchers", and "AR Activists" are using bait and/or hounds to kill bears?  Further, if you can actually cite a real and documented example, then tell us when and why it happened. -tgades

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,       -tgades tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

The other method they use is to create paranoia through undercover fanatical defenders of the insane under the guise of "I’m just sticking up for the minorities no matter how ludicress it sounds". Scully and Mulder will expose your devious plot.  You don’t fool me! Mike

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  

In Colorado, we can no longer hunt spring bears, unless they’re gay. TimW (Stolen from a cartoon which lampooned the Amendment 2 passing the popular vote)

Response:

     < snip "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of 1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts.

Hi Jim, The Washington State initiative is the only one I know about.  It only prohibits bear baiting and hound hunting for cougars.  I don’t hunt but "some of my best friends . . .".  Many hunters supported the initiative but the anti crowd used wild and false statements (along the lines of "they wanna take away your right to hunt, they wanna take away your way of life") in their attempt to defeat the initiative.  Fortunately, the public saw through their BS and passed it. My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal. August Kristoferson Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

Response:

 I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you  might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of  the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it  has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.  For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm  "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of  1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington  state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each  campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional  stewardship of state wildlife managers.

Unfortunately for our wallets, the initiative passed in Washington.  For those who don’t bother to look at the end result of their vote — the state of Washington, expecting the measure to pass, had already lined up professional hunters with dogs to handle the necessary extermination of these animals when they exceed practical levels of population. The state will now have to pay for the service. The state of Oregon failed to pass the needed repeal of a similar law. There the state found that the number of animals they had to _pay_ to have exterminated was equivalent to the number that sport hunters usually paid for the right to hunt them.  Definitely a lose-lose situation for the state.  I’ve heard the cost is a couple of million annually. Even California is now having a pretty significant problem with cougars moving into populated areas making it unsafe to let the toddler play in the backyard.

Response:

My decision not to hunt is based solely on the fact that it doesn’t really appeal to me.  I don’t view hunting as any worse or better than fishing which I love.  I voted in favor of this initiative just as I would vote to prohibit snagging of fish if it weren’t already illegal.

In my view of the universe, the achilles heel of this legislation is in the fact that it takes "wildlife management" out of the hands of the professionals (ie. Departments of Fish and Game/Wildlife [admittedly an arguable statement, but certainly not improved upon by asking Joe/ Jane-weaned-on-Disney-Classics to take up this responsibility]).  Why do we believe that Fish and Game managers allow detrimental (some would claim "cruel’) practices to continue despite convincing evidence "that even a layman can understand"?  Could it be that the issue is more complex than we appreciate?  Let the wildlife management community do their job.  We should be able to make input into the decision making process.  But, let’s not take the decision making out of the hands of the trained professionals until they give us cause. Clearly, with 27 ballot initiatives on the Oregon ballet this year, the initiative process is being abused.  I always ask myself– "Is this a matter that requires a change to the state constitution, with all the attendant costs, to address the issue?"   The answer is usually, "No". I guess it goes back to the thread about big government vs. individual responsibility.  But, in reverse!  Now were talking about big government (ie. the voting owners of the government) trying to dictate how the little wildlife management community (probably a government agency working with state schools) carries out its responsibilities. Life is weird when you’re left-handed! Charley

Response:

  I came across something at the Americas for Medical Progress web site you   might find interesting. BTW, HSUS is an acronym for the Humane Society of   the United States. It used to be an animal welfare organization but it   has since been taken over by animal "rights" types.   For more info, see http://www.ampef.org/hsus.htm   "The HSUS bankrolled ballot initiatives in six states in the fall of   1996, ostensibly aimed at hunters in Oregon, California, Washington   state, Michigan, Idaho and Massachusetts. The real goal behind each   campaign is to remove wildlife and habitat policies from the professional   stewardship of state wildlife managers.

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,         -tgades

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

You might want to re-read the the ballot question carefully. Question 1 in Massachusetts was advertised to outlaw the use of spring traps in the state. At the End of the lengthy ballot question it also read that the laws are to be changed to allow non sportsman(AKA ARA’s) to serve on the board that governs hunting and fishing in this state. Unfortunatly all the TV ads showed thirty year old footage of animals including household pets caught in the traps with no mention of the second part of the question and question 1 passed by a 3-2 margin. Hopefully this can be changed before the ARA’s take over the board and try to ban hunting and fishing in this state.(Don’t think it can’t happen!!)

Response:

For what it is worth.  THe initiative in WA (which passed handily) was primarily to outlaw the practice of bear baiting – a practice already illegal in all but a couple of the states with viable bear populations.  It was hardly a radical animal rights initiative as is implied above.  THe Oregon initiative was an attempt to reverse an earlier decision to outlaw the practice in that state.  It failed. cheers,    -tgades

tgades, Where have you been? Any animal rights initiative is RADICAL! It’s a well-known fact among sportsmen that the ARA’s modus operandi is "divide and conquer". They attack minorities (bear-baiters, Salmon snaggers) within the hunting and fishing sports, hoping that other hunters/fishers won’t care because it’s not "their" type of hunting/fishing. Attitudes like yours ensure that the ARA’s tactics work! Todd

Response:

Question:

are there any schools that teach fishing with conventional tackle instead of pure flyrod?

Response:

are there any schools that teach fishing with conventional tackle instead of pure flyrod?

I don’t know of any. I think that is why the fly fishing industry is doing so well.  There are lots of videos, books and schools on the sport of fly fishing. Most of the conventional tackle is sold by self service mass merchandizers like Walmart and Kmart. It is hard to get any service, help or fishing info from those stores. I have watched the tackle business change for the last 31 years that I have been involved in it. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Question:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,         John

Response:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,        John

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx John…. I have been up in Anchorage several time at an area called Bulchitna. It is a lake and stream  on a tributary (sp) of Lake creek.  August may be just a little ealy for silvers, but if you want some good fishing and if the silvers are up, I would go to Bulchitna.  You can get a cabin on the lake (rustic cabin), with the stream 50 yards behind the cabin.  Lots of Pinks, rainbows, grayling, and silver (when running), and pike in the lake.  Call Craig Ketchum of Ketchum Air Service.  I don’t have the number with me right now, but they have an 800 number which you can get from the 800 operator.  Just as for Ketchum Air Service in Anchorage. Ketchum has lots of places they will fly you out to.  You can fish from 5:30am til 10:30pm.  I know that for a fact.  Who eats when you can fish! Contact me for more info. Russ….

Response:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,         John

Response:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,        John

I’d tie wooly buggers, egg-sucking leeches, large egg patterns, and flashy streamers on 1/0 to #4 hooks.  The best all-around fly in Alaska is probably the egg sucking leech in purple/Iliamna pinky.   BTW you didn’t ask but: Lake Creek float trip = nice wilderness experience, some mild whitewater, (WW1 – WW3) and good fishing.  There will be some , grayling, RBTs and some tired Kings.  It might be a bit early for Silvers in the upper river but you should run into them in the lower part. Kenai = lots of people, (although the King Salmon crowds are gone) and Aug. 1 – 4 is too early for Kenai Silvers.  They hit their stride in early September.  May be some late run Reds around in the upper drainages, (albeit a bit tired.) R. Wood in Alaska

Response:

Question:

Recently I was looking out the window of a jet and daydreaming. As we passed over southern Montana I saw what seemed to be an isolated range of mountains with lots of lakes and streams. It looked beautiful. When I got home and checked the map it appeared to be the Wind River Range. Does anybody know if this is an interesting area for fly fishing and backpacking? Thanks. Charles Daniel

Response:

Recently I was looking out the window of a jet and daydreaming. As we passed over southern Montana I saw what seemed to be an isolated range of mountains with lots of lakes and streams. It looked beautiful. When I got home and checked the map it appeared to be the Wind River Range. Does anybody know if this is an interesting area for fly fishing and backpacking? Thanks. Charles Daniel

Charles: The Winds are indeed absolutely beautiful.  I have done a number of backpacking trips into various portions of the Winds and they have spectacular scenery and fabulous fishing.  I’ve been on lakes where you could literally catch 12"-16" cutthroats on about every cast. There are a number of trailheads on both the east and west sides of the range, and there are hundreds of lakes with fish in them.  You can get forest service maps of the range (I think it’s the Shoshone Natl. Forest and the office is in Pinedale, WY). The Winds are definitely worth a trip – or ten. Good luck, Bob

Response:

Recently I was looking out the window of a jet and daydreaming. As we passed over southern Montana I saw what seemed to be an isolated range of mountains with lots of lakes and streams. It looked beautiful. When I got home and checked the map it appeared to be the Wind River Range. Does anybody know if this is an interesting area for fly fishing and backpacking? Thanks. Charles Daniel

Better check your map again.  The Winds are in Wyoming.  However, they are a superb location for fishing and backpacking.  Some of the most beautiful country in the state is in the Winds. Don Kelly

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