Question:

Gotta side with Ghinky on the leaders. Knotless leaders suck bigtime. Also giving him the benefit of the doubt (I hope I don’t regret this) I suspect he meant single vs. double or triple. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? It’s silly.  It calls for hand-tied leaders (who cares?) and barbed hooks (get real.) People use indicators because they do not know how to read the fly line, fishing conditions, or the leader properly. That is an uninformed opinion at best, and a lie at worst.

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Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing?

It’s silly.  It calls for hand-tied leaders (who cares?) and barbed hooks (get real.) People use indicators because they do not know how to read the fly line, fishing conditions, or the leader properly.

That is an uninformed opinion at best, and a lie at worst.

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Man… I was just kidding….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many do have bad eye sight, but that is what corrective lens and Polaroids are for Beetle. Look, if you want to use an indicator, that is your choice.  I was only asking and you answered my question. Thanks, George I guess because I can’t SEE my leader in fast pocket water I suppose…. As far as the argument about indicators being like radar…. I guess that makes dry fly fisherman what? So inept they need a tailslap or a big poppy SLURP to know they got a bite? Beetle — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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The patent is for Xink not Gink.

DOH ! You’re right of course, I just assumed if Le Duc du Chocolat said it, it must be so. — Ken Fortenberry

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Many do have bad eye sight, but that is what corrective lens and Polaroids are for Beetle.   Look, if you want to use an indicator, that is your choice.  I was only asking and you answered my question. Thanks, George I guess because I can’t SEE my leader in fast pocket water I suppose…. As far as the argument about indicators being like radar…. I guess that makes dry fly fisherman what? So inept they need a tailslap or a big poppy SLURP to know they got a bite? Beetle

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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If Gink is outlawed only outlaws will have Gink.

Seriously ROFLMAO — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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The patent is for Xink not Gink. DOH ! You’re right of course, I just assumed if Le Duc du Chocolat said it, it must be so.

Yep, I didn’t look either. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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Ken Fortenberry writes: Something to consider … I have no interest in having my name in any record book.  Besides, I can’t find gink in any of the fly shops I visit.

No, I don’t either. I think the "record" thing is a little silly and of more interest to tackle manufacturer’s bragging rights and marketing schemes than to Joe Angler. I do confess to having stuck a bottle of Gink in my vest from the pile at Wayno’s Original ‘Clave but I have long since thrown it away and I don’t look for it in flyshops. Interesting to note, however, that it’s probably illegal to use Gink on the "Artificials Only" waters in Montana. I may start to look for Gink in flyshops just to pass on this interesting bit of info. — Ken Fortenberry

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The patent is for Xink not Gink. I don’t know if gink is scented but I bet George will tell us. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea. That’s why gink has scent in it. <g Thanks to Mike Connor’s posting the patent info we now know that Gink floatant contains scent. This would make any fish caught using a fly treated with Gink ineligible for any IGFA tippet class record according to IGFA regulation F ; "No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited." http://www.igfa.org/rulebook/page2.html Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book. — Ken Fortenberry

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Interesting to note, however, that it’s probably illegal to use Gink on the "Artificials Only" waters in Montana. I may start to look for Gink in flyshops just to pass on this interesting bit of info.

If Gink is outlawed only outlaws will have Gink. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Charlie Choc writes: Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea.   That’s why gink has scent in it. <g — Charlie…

All soap does, but I didn’t know floatant did.  <g Dave

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Ken Fortenberry writes:

(snip) Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book.

I have no interest in having my name in any record book.  Besides, I can’t find gink in any of the fly shops I visit.  And, they aren’t Orvis either. Dave

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All soap does, but I didn’t know floatant did.  <g

Not sure what gink is, but according to it’s patent it has scent. <g — Charlie…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to Mike Connor’s posting the patent info we now know that Gink floatant contains scent. This would make any fish caught using a fly treated with Gink ineligible for any IGFA tippet class record according to IGFA regulation F ; "No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited." http://www.igfa.org/rulebook/page2.html Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book. — Ken Fortenberry

Plus, here in Montana, when a stretch of river is labeled as "artificial fly only", any "scent" is considered as "natural bait" and DOES NOT meet the "artificial fly" definition. This means that all the fly fishermen who fish those stretches and use GINK are/have been breaking the law. Hope the warden isn’t reading this. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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I guess because I can’t SEE my leader in fast pocket water I suppose…. As far as the argument about indicators being like radar…. I guess that makes dry fly fisherman what? So inept they need a tailslap or a big poppy SLURP to know they got a bite? Beetle

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Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea.  

That’s why gink has scent in it. <g — Charlie…

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Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea. That’s why gink has scent in it. <g

Thanks to Mike Connor’s posting the patent info we now know that Gink floatant contains scent. This would make any fish caught using a fly treated with Gink ineligible for any IGFA tippet class record according to IGFA regulation F ; "No scent, either natural or artificial is allowed on flies. The use of scented material in a fly is prohibited." http://www.igfa.org/rulebook/page2.html Something to consider if you’re interested in having your name in the record book. — Ken Fortenberry

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Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing? http://www.gink.com/articles_stories/ginkchaserules.html We have not inserted using indicators, yea or nay, yet.  Frankly, I’m against it for a variety of reasons.  The opinions regarding indicators in the present generation is one of mass hysteria because ‘everyone else is doing it’ doesn’t make it right.  People use indicators because they do not know how to read the fly line, fishing conditions, or the leader properly.  Indicators are not, what many agree, fair chase.  It really is a weapon because it makes ‘fly fishing easier’.  It is as close to imitating ‘radar’ as any tool thought of in fly fishing. But my question to you remains.  Why do you think you need to fly fish with indicators on  your leader or fly line? Thank you, George — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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Gherke writes: Why don’t you just read you leader normally?  What is the problem by sticking to "Fair Chase," rules of fly fishing?

Probably because the "Fair Chase" is *your* idea.  Borger, LaFontaine, Kaufman and other WORLD FLY FISHERS use indicators.  You are a nobody, George, so why would anyone follow your fair chse.  Your ideas on fly fishing mean nothing to most of us because you are a liar, braggart, and fool.   Dave LaCourse, Pirate and CBD

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Thanks all, I appreciate it… I’m thinking part of it might be a little laziness mid-stream and leaving smaller tippet than I needed for a #12 indicator, hence the twist, probably mostly occuring because it was fairly swift pocket water [North Fork Middle Willamette] and letting it swing at all at the end of the drift was causing the most twist as the fly rolled along the surface? At any rate, I shall re-try the hook-bend method with a size or two bigger material ahead of the indicator… Aside from the twist, watching the setup it looked like something I really hope to try once I start to see some caddis activity here on my river as the indicator skips and rolls on slight swing with an emerger beneath…  Maybe a nice bushy black elkhair caddis and a cdc or elkhair caddis emerger…. Thanks again Beetle

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I’ve never fished with and indicator fly before yesterday… apparently there was a cosmic reason too… I have a number of books and videos by people like Gary LaFontaine, etc… that suggest various methods, but I remain stumped.

Connecting the dropper to the hook bend works better for me.  It does not usually work too well with a large weighted nymph or a nymph with a large bead head.  How big/weighted/beaded is your nymph?  If you can get by with something like a stimulator it will probably float it better.

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Bob Weinberger writes:

(Outstanding advice snipped) I would only add that your cast is more of a circular cast than you would normally make.  There ain’t no loop, or at least it is so opened up that it doesn’t look like a normal loop. It is  more of a lob started when the rig gets down stream from you.  No false casting, and try to keep distance to a maximum of 30 feet.  Twisting tippet usually means mis-matched tippet.  A size 12 fly is best matched with 3x or 4x tippet.   Since you state you are using an emerger (instead of a weighted nymph) as a dropper, try going to a smaller indicator fly.  I fish a size 18 emerger that I can not see because it is so small and is just below the surface.  I will either use a strike indicator or a #16 dry about 3 feet above it. Yarn indicator sinking?  Go up one size and use some Albolene or Aquel on it. Dave

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        Leadin snipped So the questions are: 1) is this just inately difficult [meaning I SUCK] 2) what part of this apparently common approach am I missing or do not understand [which rarely happens ] or 3) Should I just stick to the bright yarn method which sinks in 10 minutes of fishing AHGA! Beetle

Beetle, I have tried all three methods that you tried, and I prefer the tie in at the bend of the hook method.  It is critical that you match the size and floatability of the indicator dry to the weight on the trailing fly, i.e. don’t overpower the dry with too much weight.  Also, I have better luck if the indicator is not an upright wing fly and is on a longer shank hook, e.g. use a stimulator or Goddard Caddis. Another hint, the trailer should be on a tippet about 1x smaller than the tippet to the indicator.  If your leader is properly tapered and in balance with the outfit, and  trailer isn’t heavily weighted or on a tippet longer than 3-4′ you should not need to open up your loops very much at all for casts of 30′ or less. I sometimes fish with two small trailers, one 2-3′ from the indicator & another 1-2′ below that. Although, I get more tangles this way than when fishing a single fly, it handles quite well if there is no wind.  Of course if the fish are concentrating on only one of the trailers, I quickly eliminate one of the flies from the rig to ease  handling. HTH Bob Weinberger

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So the questions are: 1) is this just inately difficult [meaning I SUCK] 2) what part of this apparently common approach am I missing or do not understand [which rarely happens ]

You have to pick your situation. Don’t try a dropper fly if it’s very windy, and don’t try to cast the rig like you would a single dry fly, especially if you’re casting weight. Make ugly, chucking-type casts. Every minute you spend untangling a mess is a minute you aren’t putting the flies in front of the fish. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I’ve never fished with and indicator fly before yesterday… apparently there was a cosmic reason too… I have a number of books and videos by people like Gary LaFontaine, etc… that suggest various methods, but I remain stumped. I ended up with a twisted mess everytime. The leader in front of the indicator [fly] would twist up so bad it would knot up. Basically I had a #12 humpy [going on the deer hair floats idea] and an emerger about 15" below that, both were tied to the eye of the attractor, causing the second problem, thehumpy was usually face first/ass up… Then I tried tying the dropper leader material [again about 12" to 15"] to the bend of the hook of the indicator. Less twist, but ass in the water floating too low or drowning and more hangups en-cast. [I did try to open up my loop/backcast]. THEN I figured I was a bit smart, so I put on a knotted leader and a short tippet. In front of the first blood knot above the tippet I attached the indicator with a short [4"???] tippet of it’s own. No indicator twist, but it was always [mostly anyway] wrapped around the leader/tippet in varous ways…. So the questions are: 1) is this just inately difficult [meaning I SUCK] 2) what part of this apparently common approach am I missing or do not understand [which rarely happens ] or 3) Should I just stick to the bright yarn method which sinks in 10 minutes of fishing AHGA! Beetle

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Question:

    Don’t listen to Moe. Take your wife/girlfriend with you and try all the rods you can over a period of 3 wks and keep asking "wada you think about this one". At the end of this time she will (1)suggest you buy it if you like it. (2) Buy the one you seemed to like the most for you. or (3) Inform you she doesn’t give a damn, just buy one and leave her alone.

Funny. That’s the tactic my wife uses on me for shoes. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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You know what Thomas’ last name is don’t you?…..Winston!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         close your eyes and begin saying "thomas & thomas" over and over and over again.  the only new rod you’ll ever need.         a. wayne harrison, totally subjective t&t freak.

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So why do you like them so much? Mark Faulkner A upgrade in rod would do the most good probally but have you checked out the loop reels. They are amazing!  Check out there site at http://www.looptackle.se/

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 Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ?                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

John – tried that once – doesn’t work. Mark Faulkner

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Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew

Hi Stew, The rod upgrade will make the most difference in your fishing.  I’d suggest looking at rods in the $250 price range such as the Orvis Silver Label.  I especially like the Silver Label TL’s, but rod choice is very personal.  You need to cast as many rods in this price range as you can get your hands on to see what suits you best (half the fun of buying a new rod). Most major manufacturers have rods in this price range and that is where you get the most performance for the money.  The top of the line rods usually offer additional performance but at a much greater price.   If you were already at the mid-price level, I’d probably be recommending the reel upgrade instead.  The rod upgrade pays off everytime you cast it.  The reel upgrade pays off when you hook a fish that you have to (get to) play off the reel.                        Hope this helps,                             Dan Dan Gracia Orvis

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Another suggestion is to look at a previously owned rod.  This way you could take a big jump.  I agree with upgrading the rod first, and I too like Orvis Silver Labels.  I own one along with several other rods.   Consider talking with

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I am waiting for my rod to be repaired (4th time) and fishing with my backup.  Your reel seldom breaks, so if you can only get one, get another rod so you can have a spare.  -Better yet, get another combo.

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I have only broken one rod in fifty years of flyfishing.  I have seven rods, four fiberglass two graphite and one bamboo.  I made most of them from blanks because I wanted to see the difference in various manufacturers.  You should have a backup rod in case something happens to one.  A friend of mine took two rods on a horse pack trip in plastic cases.  The packer packed them together on the side of the pack and the horse broke them both, so watch your rods closely or you may not get to fish when you get there. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am waiting for my rod to be repaired (4th time) and fishing with my backup.  Your reel seldom breaks, so if you can only get one, get another rod so you can have a spare.  -Better yet, get another combo.

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Okay y’all are giving me some good ideas here now ….so what is there to making a rod from a blank? Does it really ssave like when I make my own golf clubs? Where does a person buy blanks and the associated stuff from? Stew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have only broken one rod in fifty years of flyfishing.  I have seven rods, four fiberglass two graphite and one bamboo.  I made most of them from blanks because I wanted to see the difference in various manufacturers.  You should have a backup rod in case something happens to one.  A friend of mine took two rods on a horse pack trip in plastic cases.  The packer packed them together on the side of the pack and the horse broke them both, so watch your rods closely or you may not get to fish when you get there. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh I am waiting for my rod to be repaired (4th time) and fishing with my backup.  Your reel seldom breaks, so if you can only get one, get another rod so you can have a spare.  -Better yet, get another combo.

– #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Hi Stew, There are lots of great fly rods around $200. Most anglers are fishing 9′ #5 line rods for trout. Sage DS, Scott Alpha & Voyager, Loomis GL2 & 3, T&T Emerger are all great values.  These are the entry level rods from the top fly rod manufacturers. Your reel should be OK till it fails to work for you. Good fly lines are $30 to $50, so there is no excuse for not having the best. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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 Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ?                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl. John – tried that once – doesn’t work. Mark Faulkner

Mark Let her choose the colour and you can get anything you want, (budgets and bank cooperation assuming.) Peter

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I don’t know about that Peter, he would look a little silly in a pink 4-wheel vehicle. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ?                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl. John – tried that once – doesn’t work. Mark Faulkner Mark Let her choose the colour and you can get anything you want, (budgets and bank cooperation assuming.) Peter

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Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew

 New reel!…at least with a light reel you’ll NOW be able to feel just what your rod is doing….how it’s action is…  Until you get a grip on the casting qualities of this rod (which the heavy Pfleuger is Masking!), you won’t know what you really will desire in an expensive rod….especially for a trout rod…..Steelhead, Stripers, Salmon…now the Reel plays a major part of the game…but still….the lighter is usually the better. $.02, steve d.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

    Don’t listen to Moe. Take your wife/girlfriend with you and try all the rods you can over a period of 3 wks and keep asking "wada you think about this one". At the end of this time she will (1)suggest you buy it if you like it. (2) Buy the one you seemed to like the most for you. or (3) Inform you she doesn’t give a damn, just buy one and leave her alone.                                                            John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

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haha i have 2 loops, i love them!     — Nicholas J. Slodki

:A upgrade in rod would do the most good probally but have you checked ut the loop reels. They are amazing!  Check out there site at :http://www.looptackle.se/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. [deleted] I’d spend the money on a few "kitchen passes" myself (i.e. roses for the little lady, dinner perhaps). New rod won’t do you any good while your cleaning out the refrigerator. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

   Come now Tim, what wife wouldn’t want her hubby to replace his rod with one that has a bit more action ? Also your idea, if accepted on a large scale could cause serious world wide consequences: for instance I’m looking at getting rid of an old dodge slant 6 van (given up on it breaking down and junking it) and replaceing it with a dodge ram 1500 short bed quad cab v8 with tow package and all the goodys, that being the case candy stocks should take a huge rise and at least a couple hundred acres of flower fields will be denuded. Now that new vehicles are out and every one wants a new one, imagine the devistation. Nope I’ll just say something nice and while shes in shock STRIKE. (been married a long time). Or I’ll just go down, buy it park it in the drive and tell her it followed me home, can I keep it, huh can I ?                                                           John Popp                                                         in Sanford Fl.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

        close your eyes and begin saying "thomas & thomas" over and over and over again.  the only new rod you’ll ever need.         a. wayne harrison, totally subjective t&t freak. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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D. Stewart McLeod wrote… I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment.

I don’t have any recommendations, but did want to say that as soon as I saw the "What To Upgrade" subject line, I couldn’t help but think of PC hardware and software upgrades. "When was the last release of Pfleuger, Pfleuger 71 or 94? I do know that Pfleuger 71 had to be upgraded with a Service Pack (a machined aluminum foot, sold separately, not available in the OEM releases of Pfleuger) so it could work with a Sage-96, or for that matter, any earlier release of Sage or Orvis. Speaking of Sage-96, why is it so much more expensive than say Sage-90?  At least it doesn’t take up more rod-tube space." Someone with far greater writing talents than me could have fun with this.  "If Microsoft Sold Fishing Gear" Thomas Gilg

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I’d also suggest upgrading a rod before a reel.  the manfacturere already mentioned are all good.  You might also look at the Thomas & Thomas emerger series.  These rods are priced approximately the same as the Discovery series from Sage and the entry level Loomis’. Tim also makes a good point.  "Kitchen passes" are always good to have. Have fun selecting a rod. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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A upgrade in rod would do the most good probally but have you checked out the loop reels. They are amazing!  Check out there site at http://www.looptackle.se/

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This is a no-brainer in my book, Stew – go for the rod, and have fun casting a bunch of different rods in making the selection. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Response:

Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

Response:

Steweart writes:

<<Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. Stew Stew, I would focus the money on the rod.  Unless you are into a lot of big trout, the reel simply holds your line for you.   While there is no denying a silky smooth reel is something to drool over, it isn’t necessary for most of us unless you are after steelhead, salmon, bonefish, BIG trout etc. Check out the St. Croix rods or the Reddington line for some nice upgrades.   You may also want to check out some of the rod/reel combo’s from Sage, Orvis and Loomis.  I know you can get a Sage Discovery with a reel, line and metal tube for around $265 or so.  I bought one years ago and still use it a lot. Mike

Response:

[deleted] I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new rod or reel.

[deleted] I’d spend the money on a few "kitchen passes" myself (i.e. roses for the little lady, dinner perhaps). New rod won’t do you any good while your cleaning out the refrigerator. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

I’d say replace the rod.  Check out Orvis, Diamondback, Loomis or St. Croix. They make excellent rods ranging from $95-$500. — Nicholas J. Slodki

:Gents (and ladies ..:-) ) : :I have been fly fishing for the past two years and now I feel it is time :to upgrade my equipment. Don’t ask me why, I just feel I can benefit :from  "better" equipment. I currently own a  Pfleuger starter set which :my wife bought me a couple of Christmas’ ago. : :I guess my big question is, where would me money be better spent, a new :rod or reel. My gut tells me the rod is the place to build a solid :foundation around and look at a new reel down the rod. I fish for trout :in the streams and rivers of Washington State and occasionally back home :in Calgary Alberta., but again for trout. : :Stew : : :– :#  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. :#"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; :# an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." :#    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965) : : :

Response:

Question:

Hi Jeff, Marc, Fishtales – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – of regulars there from your area.  And, many of them flyfish. later, Jeff I’m new at fly fishing and have know idea where to go. if you do please let me know. The Canal is not full of to many fish. — Let’s Talk Fish! Big Fish! New Canadian Fishing Newsgroup Is Here! Jeff Goddard, Ottawa, Ont. Canada

Response:

I’m new at fly fishing and have know idea where to go. if you do please let me know. The Canal is not full of to many fish.

Response:

Try the newsgroup can.rec.fishing  if you don’t get answer there or can’t get to the group let me know. You may have to get your internet provider to place that group on their newsgroups listing. — <*))))< Paul Phillips Director of Operations Fintastic Fish Mounts http://www.fintastic.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new at fly fishing and have know idea where to go. if you do please let me know. The Canal is not full of to many fish.

Response:

of regulars there from your area.  And, many of them flyfish.         later,                 Jeff I’m new at fly fishing and have know idea where to go. if you do please let me know. The Canal is not full of to many fish.

– Let’s Talk Fish! Big Fish! New Canadian Fishing Newsgroup Is Here! Jeff Goddard, Ottawa, Ont. Canada

Response:

Question:

Who was it said ‘A woman is just a woman but a good cigar is a smoke’? Probably W.C. Fields or George Burns. Pete Marrow http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm

Response:

I always offer my trout a Marlboro before I knock its head on a boulder…

Response:

A smoker AND a fish murderer!! How many of your victims have accepted a last cigarette? — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always offer my trout a Marlboro before I knock its head on a boulder…

Response:

A good fart is better than a good cigar. William Buchman

For the sake of future generations – think of the ozone layer! — Bill

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If you smoke after flyfishing, you’re doing it too fast. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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‘And a woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke.’ Rudyard Kipling. You should be ashamed<g. Who was it said ‘A woman is just a woman but a good cigar is a smoke’? Probably W.C. Fields or George Burns.

– Charlie…

Response:

Drugs are for sick people. You said it, enjoy and be damned.

Oh Bill, you have such a BIG heart.  You’re so open minded I could just puke. </chaz

Response:

Of course a good cigar *does* keep away black flies and PCJs.

Good Dave. Even a cheap cigar keeps the biter bugs away. Joel Axelrad

Response:

William Buchman writes:

<<Many smokers are indeed courteous while a few seem to take pleasure in directing their smoke toward others. William Buchman Come on, Buchman.  Lighten up.  I smoked for 45 years and quit five years ago without any problems.  I have never seen a smoker getting his jollies by annoying others with his smoke, especially today.  Any smoke you get while fishing is thousands of times less dangerous than the exhaust smoke you inhaled driving to the stream.  The beauty of smoking outside is that you can position yourself so that the smoke blows away from you.  Ever tried that?  But walking down the street of any town or city is going to expose you to so much lung damage (as compared to cigarette smoke) that you should probably let your wife do all the shopping.  Never go to the mall, Buchman — way to much smoke (from cars and those %*& SUVs. <<<<<<<< Over the last few years, especially after retiring, I am able to keep away from smokers.  When working, I was very annoyed at meetings where one or two smokers could screw up a meeting of about 20 people. I am not conerned over health effects from second hand smoke. My present greatest exposure to smoke is at a swap meet I attend regularly.  If I see someone smoking, I try to avoid them. But every now and then I get an unpleasant surprise by inhaling the concentrated effluent from an unseen cigarette.  MOST ANNOYING!  Smokers do not realize how annoying their effluent can be.  I must admit that smokers purposely annoying other people was mostly a phenomenon associated with younger smokers. The big problem came with filter cigarettes.  Because it did filter out whatever it was that addicted people, stronger and smellier tobacco was used. While the effect on the smoker was not changed much, the unfortunate bystander took a big hit. William Buchman

Response:

A good fart is better than a good cigar. William Buchman

Response:

The trouble with the carcinogenic effects of tobacco is that it works too slowly.

Response:

Buchman writes:

<<The trouble with the carcinogenic effects of tobacco is that it works too slowly. That’s what I like about you, Buchman — you’re all heart. Dave LaCourse

Response:

Drugs are for sick people.

You said it, enjoy and be damned. — Bill

Response:

Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

Response:

Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

Nah, smoke all you want on roff<g. — Charlie…

Response:

More "free speech". — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

Response:

Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

Flames as well as smoke! — Bill

Response:

Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

I’ve got a cigarette going right now!   Damn proud of it, too. And I think that the term "idiots" as joel posted is being way too kind.   Words like assholes, and pricks come to mind much more easily. I actually had to have a chat with my Gen Mgr and Human Resources person about it at work a couple weeks ago.  People were giving me shit constantly about it.  I asked them in that meeting that it be stopped permanently and immediately with this big smile on my face that suggested that a lawsuit totalling more than my companies net worth would be filed if it didn’t. It worked. I also smoke while fishing.  I have been known to accidently drop a butt in the river too, but that’s usually when a trout interupts my smoke break by choosing to hit my fly.  Pretty hard to put out a cigarrette and stick it in my vest when one of the leviathans of the South Platte is ripping line off my reel faster than I can think about it. I should also add that to compensate for may occaisional environmental faux pas I NEVER use those damned sticky foam bobbers that so many nymph fishers refer to a "strike indicators".  You find a lot more of those damned things littering the banks than cigarette butts. </chaz

Response:

My only objection to people smoking safely and cleanly occurs when I breathe their effluent.  I would get pissed if they start a forest fire even if I cannot smell their smoke.  Unfortunately, the emitted crap can go a long way before it becomes innocuous.  As a courtesy, I would hope smokers would have the tact to avoid the situation where their smoke annoys others.  Many smokers are indeed courteous while a few seem to take pleasure in directing their smoke toward others. William Buchman

Response:

Sense of humour failure,methinks! Pedanticism should be left to those who NEVER write anything that could be misconstrued, intentionally or

otherwise. Ahhh….joke ‘em if they can’t take a …. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

<snipped but VERY well said Of course a good cigar *does* keep away black flies and PCJs.

Oh yeah, better than smearing that DEET shit all over your skin. I’ve often felt that rolling up a fat one for a day astream an excellent addition to my arsenal. (before anyone says a word I want it to be known that I know it’s illegal as hell and I don’t give a damn, okay?  And there’s no law against talking about it.  And a note for the kids:  Drugs are for sick people.) It doesn’t improve my fishing one bit, and probably hurts more than helps a creel count, but it sure makes those bungholes that make noise about my cigarrette smoking a lot easier to take. </chaz

Response:

William Buchman writes:

<<Many smokers are indeed courteous while a few seem to take pleasure in directing their smoke toward others. William Buchman Come on, Buchman.  Lighten up.  I smoked for 45 years and quit five years ago without any problems.  I have never seen a smoker getting his jollies by annoying others with his smoke, especially today.  Any smoke you get while fishing is thousands of times less dangerous than the exhaust smoke you inhaled driving to the stream.  The beauty of smoking outside is that you can position yourself so that the smoke blows away from you.  Ever tried that?  But walking down the street of any town or city is going to expose you to so much lung damage (as compared to cigarette smoke) that you should probably let your wife do all the shopping.  Never go to the mall, Buchman — way to much smoke (from cars and those %*& SUVs. Of course a good cigar *does* keep away black flies and PCJs. Dave LaCourse

Response:

What I do have a problem with is telling young ROFF readers that a pipe, cigar, or chew is *mandatory* to the experience of flyfishing. Nonsense. No-one said it was mandatory.

What part of the following post do you not understand? Cigars or cigarettes are a strictly a no-no on the stream!   If you really want to "put on the dog" and fool the other flyfishermen into thinking that you know what you’re doing out on the stream, it is absolutely mandatory that you smoke a pipe. Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer. gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newscon04!prodigy.com!not-f or-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly HTH

Response:

Sense of humour failure,methinks! Pedanticism should be left to those who NEVER write anything that could be misconstrued, intentionally or otherwise. — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I do have a problem with is telling young ROFF readers that a pipe, cigar, or chew is *mandatory* to the experience of flyfishing. Nonsense. No-one said it was mandatory. What part of the following post do you not understand? Cigars or cigarettes are a strictly a no-no on the stream!   If you really want to "put on the dog" and fool the other flyfishermen into thinking that you know what you’re doing out on the stream, it is absolutely mandatory that you smoke a pipe. Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer. gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newscon04!prodigy.com!not-f or-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly HTH

Response:

Question:

I’ve built a kayak cart for my Caspia and question that $30 amount.  The wheels alone for mine cost $12 each.  Sure, I could have paid less but I wanted wheels at least 8" to make it easy to roll.    

Mine has 10" wheels that were $7.96 apiece. I’ve posted a picture and description on my Web pages: http://home.earthlink.net/~iadams/ Follow the kayaking link. Ira  Adams

Response:

I’ve built a kayak cart for my Caspia and question that $30 amount.  The wheels alone for mine cost $12 each.  Sure, I could have paid less but I wanted wheels at least 8" to make it easy to roll.     Mine has 10" wheels that were $7.96 apiece. I’ve posted a picture and description on my Web pages: http://home.earthlink.net/~iadams/ Follow the kayaking link.

Whoops! The link in question was messed up on my site. It’s fixed now. Ira  Adams

Response:

You might call Keel Haulers Outfitters 1-800-484-9832 They sell both Perception & Wilderness Systems Kayaks. Check out their WEB page — John Kobak <A <P<A HREF="http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/keelhaul/kh.htm"Keel Haulers Canoe Club</A <P<A HREF="http://pages.prodigy.net/keelhauler/"Outfitters Catalog</A

Response:

I went down that road too just recently. If you plan on using your Kayak solo at any time, consider that a tandem is difficult for one person to use. I was looking at the Pamlico and the Jocassee until this point was made and I relalized that my fishing would be affected. Also there is such a thing as too much togetherness. You know, back seat drivers, speed demons verses the coasters, sightseers verses the goal seekers. It cost a lot more but we now have his and hers kayaks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?   It has been over 20 years since I went white water rating with a tour group and as I would like to get back into shape and the wife likes water (calm) I figured a tandem kayak would be perfect.  Again thanks for any info you can give a beginner.  

Response:

I went down that road too just recently. If you plan on using your Kayak solo at any time, consider that a tandem is difficult for one person to use. I was looking at the Pamlico and the Jocassee until this point was made and I relalized that my fishing would be affected.

Actually, the Jocassee paddles very nicely as a single (unless you’re silly enough to try paddling it alone without moving the front seat back to the singles position). The only disadvantage to using the Jocassee for flatwater fishing would be that it’s heavy and thus can be awkward to load/unload by oneself. It will require a dolly to move by yourself unless you’re a weightlifter. A dolly can be two wheels & an axle, from the local Wal-Mart – $30, tops. If I’m correct in thinking that the Pamlico is a Jocassee knock-off, then it would probably work just as well. The Keowee 2 would be good also, with the advantages of being lighter, shorter, and easier to handle, and the disadvantages of being slower to paddle and having not quite as much room for gear or friends. Ira  Adams

Response:

I went down that road too just recently. If you plan on using your Kayak solo at any time, consider that a tandem is difficult for one person to use. I was looking at the Pamlico and the Jocassee until this point was made and I relalized that my fishing would be affected.

There is a Pamlico Sport.  It’s a Pamlico equipped with a Motorguide 20 ft/lb. electric trolling motor which can be lowered and raised while sitting in the cockpit and steered with your feet.   Actually, the Jocassee paddles very nicely as a single (unless you’re silly enough to try paddling it alone without moving the front seat back to the singles position). The only disadvantage to using the Jocassee for flatwater fishing would be that it’s heavy and thus can be awkward to load/unload by oneself. It will require a dolly to move by yourself unless you’re a weightlifter. A dolly can be two wheels & an axle, from the local Wal-Mart – $30, tops.

I’ve built a kayak cart for my Caspia and question that $30 amount.  The wheels alone for mine cost $12 each.  Sure, I could have paid less but I wanted wheels at least 8" to make it easy to roll.     BTW, I’ve done a bit of flyfishing from my Caspia since I’ve owned it.  I had a carp on a few weeks ago that was easily over 10 pounds and pulled me all over the river.  After fighting it for almost a half an hour it finally broke me off. John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

Response:

I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?   It has been over 20 years since I went white water rating with a tour group and as I would like to get back into shape and the wife likes water (calm) I figured a tandem kayak would be perfect.  Again thanks for any info you can give a beginner.  

Response:

" As far as Perceptions kayaks, they take a beating and keep on competing. They wear like steel and even with thousands of scratches, still handle like a dream. I have used their kayaks for over ten years in all kinds of conditions. Good Luck on your choice.                                                         DJMK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?   It has been over 20 years since I went white water rating with a tour group and as I would like to get back into shape and the wife likes water (calm) I figured a tandem kayak would be perfect.  Again thanks for any info you can give a beginner.  

Response:

I am looking to buy a kayak that will be used on lakes and possibly rivers (calm).  I want a tandem kayak and have looked at Perceptions Keowee 2 and Jocassee.  The salesman also mentioned Wilderness Systems Pamlico and Pamlico Excel although he didn’t have any in stock at the time.  I would appreciated any info folks in the group may be able to give me concerning these kayaks.  Is there much maintenance on these rotomolded kayaks?  

I’m far from expert, but after years of mooching off my friend’s canoe I finally sprang for my own boat(s). I just purchased a Pamlico and so far have had it out once on a lake for it’s shakedown cruise. I’m pleased with it so far, it was easily handled as a single and works as a double as long as you don’t plan on packing anything. The load is 325 lbs. My wife and I don’t leave a lot to spare. It’s very nice for an adult and child. However tandem paddling with two double bladed kayak paddles is an art that we’ve not yet mastered. It was suggested and I’m tending to agree that a forward kayak paddle for power and a rear canoe paddle for rudder is an easier way to go. From what I can tell, this load is about average for the doubles; although the Pamlico Excel is about 2 ft longer and should support more weight. If you want substantially bigger loads you might consider a plain canoe. I did say boat(s) plural. We also picked up a Wilderness Systems Rascal. This is a one man kayak (200 lb load). Its design is such that it is not easily rolled. My wife seemed to really enjoy it. I even put my 9-year old in it. I got them at "Appomatox River Company" in Farmville Va. They’re in the middle of nowhere but they were extremely nice and had the biggest selection and best prices I could find. Check them out at : http://www.moonstar.com/~arc/ PGP key available from "http://www.mnsinc.com/moore"                      Dave Moore

Response:

Question:

I want to get into fly fishing in the surf off of Southern California. Plan to use an 8 wt…..what is a good line to use? I was thinking something like the Teeny T-300….any advice? Thanks in advance.

Response:

I want to get into fly fishing in the surf off of Southern California. Plan to use an 8 wt…..what is a good line to use? I was thinking something like the Teeny T-300….any advice? Thanks in advance.

The T-300 is a great line.  I have a HiD "big game" Triangle Taper that I like alot.  The biggest issue is that as a beginner you will probably fish better with a sinktip, as controlling a full sinking line in the surf is not exactly easy.  It gets under your boots and around your legs much more frequently, and until you learn to handle it you are out of touch with your flies alot of the time.  If you already own the T-300 just learn to use it.  But if you also own a 13 to 20 foot high speed sinktip, you might want to use that until you get better at line handling. Phil

Response:

I want to get into fly fishing in the surf off of Southern California. Plan to use an 8 wt…..what is a good line to use? I was thinking something like the Teeny T-300….any advice? Thanks in advance.

YOU WILL DO WELL with shooting heads.  In fact, better. Mr. G.

Response:

that is what I call an excellent response. Thank you for being specific about lines and how to. bill

Response:

that is what I call an excellent response. Thank you for being specific about lines and how to. bill

thorough indeed, but it is just one side of a very complex story.  If we are talking short (30 to 45 foot) casts PARALLEL to shore, which is what most beginners and many old timers will be doing in California (North and South), I would still contend that a beginner would be better served with a sinktip than a full sinking line or shooting taper.  As I stated earlier, I rely on full sinking lines, preferring them to Shooting Tapers, since changing line density isn’t important (fastest sink you have is all you need), and that and distance are the only advantages of the shooting taper over a full sinking line.  Line handling problems, the inability to make aerial mends, and finger cuts are all good arguments for avoiding shooting heads whenever possible.  By the way I do use shooting heads extensively for lakes, steelhead, shad, Jetties, rare occasions when I’m casting straight out, and rocky coastal shoreline so I don’t have a problem with them, I just restrict them to where they really shine.  I especially stand by my recommendation to stick with what you already own, rather than run out and buy the new rage thing. Phil

Response:

Perhaps I should explain myself a little better: thorough indeed, but it is just one side of a very complex story.  If we are talking short (30 to 45 foot) casts PARALLEL to shore, which is what most beginners and many old timers will be doing in California (North and South), I would still contend that a beginner would be better served with a sinktip than a full sinking line or shooting taper.

The biggest reason for using a lead head is precisely because so much of the casting is PARALLEL to shore.  When casting parallel to shore you are putting the greatest amount of line against the wave action of the surf.  This is like casting directly across a current.  The current (wave action in the surf) exihibits the greatest influence on the line pushing it sideways and causing a belly in the line.  And of course the waves not only go in, they also ebb back out.  Little time is spent without motion in the surf. Floating line is the fattest and most susceptible to this action.  The good news is you can mend it, the bad news is you can’t mend it fast enough or well enough to compensate satisfactorily for the action unless there is a lot of time between waves.  The sink-tip is only slightly better because at least part of it sinks into the strike zone (sometimes as shallow as 1 1/2 ft, sometimes as deep as 6 to 8 feet or more).  The full sinking line sinks along the entire line which prohibits mending but gets the fly down better than the other two.  The fastest sinking line you have will work the best.   It will be the thinnest and least susceptible to the movement of the surf and you have to remember that salt water is more bouyant than freshwater.  Sinking lines don’t sink as fast in the salt.   The lead head allows you to use 300+ grains of weight in 24 ft of line (as opposed to ~210 grains for 30 feet an 8 wt.) and is much thinner than any sinking line.  More weight and less surface area allows the line to get down quicker and stay in the zone longer especially when casting PARALLEL to shore.  Again, a casting basket makes a world of difference in the frustration factor. Now the news about the expense of one of these lines is that you can make your own for less than $10 or buy one for $12 to $14.  Amnesia for a shooting line will set you back around $3.50.  If you opt for the flat beam running line, it will cost you $7. No more than $21 at the most.   If you don’t want to invest in an extra spool and backing, just remove your floating line from your current 8 or 9 wt. rig and tie on the running line and shooting head.   Probably won’t break the bank and will save you the frustration I went through using all of the lines I have mentioned. As I stated earlier, I rely on full sinking lines, preferring them to Shooting Tapers, since changing line density isn’t important (fastest sink you have is all you need), and that and distance are the only advantages of the shooting taper over a full sinking line.

Even forgetting about the distance, the comparison is not even close.  Even the fastest sinking full line won’t sink or track as well as the lead head.  Their diameter is too large and their weight too little. Bear in mind that the first 30 feet of an 8 wt. floating line weighs exactly the same as the first 30 feet of an 8 wt. type V sinking line.  Higher density lines just have the same weight in less space.  That’s what *density* is all about. Line handling problems,

Casting basket eases the tangle problem and will still keep your fly in the zone longer than full sinking lines even with the occaisional tangle. the inability to make aerial mends, and finger cuts are all good arguments for avoiding shooting heads whenever possible.

Type of line has *nothing* to do with aerial mends.  How and where you move the tip of the rod *after* you make the stop on the forward cast determines where the aerial mend goes, not whether or not it is a full sinking line or a shooting head.  "Aerial mend" means repositioning the the line *while* it is in the air. Finger cuts can be avoided by using saltwater tape or stripping guards on your stripping fingers.  White adhesive tape works OK if you can’t find the specific saltwater stuff.  I also use tape or stripping guards when using a floating line for bonefish.  Part of the problem with line cuts comes from the abrasive nature of the salt in the water.  The thinner running line does aggravate it, but the greater fishing success helps compensate for this. *SNIP* I especially stand by my recommendation to stick with what you already own, rather than run out and buy the new rage thing.

Using whatever you can absolutely beats not fishing, but using the right tool for the job makes a big difference.   Lead core lines have been around longer than modern fly lines, so I wouldn’t call them the "new rage thing".  Casting is the biggest problem most people have with lead heads and if you like I will give some suggestions in another post because this one is already way too long. I don’t mean to sound rude, but I see no reason why someone should go through all the hoops I did to arrive at this solution.  Nonetheless, do whatever you like to do, because you are the only one you have to please to enjoy this sport and you may like to use a different method.  I just think you should give this a try.                                        Hope this clarifies my statements a bit,                                                     Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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I want to get into fly fishing in the surf off of Southern California. Plan to use an 8 wt…..what is a good line to use? I was thinking something like the Teeny T-300….any advice? Thanks in advance.

Up in N. Cal one of the most popular lines for surf fishing is a lead head. This sounds scary, but actually works really well.  You can make your own or buy one from Orvis for $14.  I snagged one of the Orvis heads and then cut it back from 30 ft. to 24 ft. and put a loop on the end I cut off.  Works well on my 8 wt.  I use amnesia for the running line, but am going to try the flat beam running line ($7) that we just got in at the Orvis SF store.  Casting basket is a big help to control the running line.   The reason this works so well is that the lead core tracks far better than anything else in the surf.  Floating lines are real tough because the floating section gets whipped back and forth by the wave action so badly.  Same thing with sink tips.  Sometimes the full sinking lines work ok, but usually their cross-section is too big and gets pushed around by the waves too.  The thin lead core (I believe this is the 13gr. per foot version) sinks quickly in the more bouyant saltwater and stays in the trough or channel longer than other lines.  More time in the target area means more fish.  Not the most fun to cast, but not bad with some practice and very effective.                       Hope this helps,                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Question:

Steve, It sounds an awful lot like a trermocline to me. Did your friend  try to look below this light line? Whenever I have seen the thermocline I am always able to see bottom also and im sure he to should have been able to see bottom.  I guess you will have to ask him but to answer your question yes sonar does pick up thermoclines,but remember not every lake will develope one every year! It just depends on the conditions Good Luck Weedjig

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anybody clear up an issue.  A friend fished a couple of fly-in Canadian lakes last year and said that the edges sloped off fairly steeply, lots of rocks, etc., but that at about 20-25 feet the bottom became uniformly flat across the basin, with a weak echo return.  He assumed that this indicated an old lake bottom that had silted in, so there was just a featureless expanse of mud. These weren’t tiny lakes and I have some difficulty imagining that kind of siltation.  I seem to recall reading something about sonar echoes being intercepted and bounced back by the thermocline (epilimnion or hypolimnion, I’m not sure) when a lake has stratified (In-Fisherman, I think).  This was the beginning of July and the weather had been hot and dry.  The water was warm enough to swim in. Could this be a cuase of the aforementioned sonar readings?  We are going up again this year and I would really like to know if this might be the case? Thanks loads.

With a paper graph (Eagle or Lowrance X-16) it is very easy to adjust the unit to see the thermocline and the bottom at the same time.  To support your theory, 20 to 25 feet deep seems to be a realistic depth for a thermo- cline in mid summer that far north. Easiest way to test — use a hand line with depth markings or mark your fishing line with a permanent marker ko

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The flat ‘bottom’ reading could certainly be the thermocline.  It is very rare for any lake to have a uniformly flat bottom, especially Canadian shield lakes. Try adjusting the sensitivity up and down (mostly down in this case) to filter out unwanted signal and returns.  Also, be sure and turn the fish ID feature off if your unit has one.  Fish ID is not reliable for recognizing fish signals.  Any return not close to the bottom will show up a a "fish", and it may not be.  Some units also loose much detail in the displayed signal when the fish ID is on. Enjoy your Canadian trip!  I have to skip my Canada trip this summer and will be going through severe withdrawl!  I guess I’ll just have to fish more at home instead CHPeil!

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Can anybody clear up an issue.  A friend fished a couple of fly-in Canadian lakes last year and said that the edges sloped off fairly steeply, lots of rocks, etc., but that at about 20-25 feet the bottom became uniformly flat across the basin, with a weak echo return.  He assumed that this indicated an old lake bottom that had silted in, so there was just a featureless expanse of mud. These weren’t tiny lakes and I have some difficulty imagining that kind of siltation.  I seem to recall reading something about sonar echoes being intercepted and bounced back by the thermocline (epilimnion or hypolimnion, I’m not sure) when a lake has stratified (In-Fisherman, I think).  This was the beginning of July and the weather had been hot and dry.  The water was warm enough to swim in. Could this be a cuase of the aforementioned sonar readings?  We are going up again this year and I would really like to know if this might be the case? Thanks loads.  

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Question:

 going to the hiawasse Nov 1 for the weekend and would like some info on what to tie up and how the fishing is this time of year? please e mail me thank you, Kent K. Anderson

Response:

 going to the hiawasse

Are you asking about the Hiwassee in southeastern Tennessee? If so, maybe I can give you some info. Dave — Visit Dave Teffeteller’s Fly Fishing Guides page http://www.olfart.com

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 going to the hiawasse Nov 1 for the weekend and would like some info on what to tie up and how the fishing is this time of year? please e mail me thank you, Kent K. Anderson

Kent: You might find something on LJ Decuir’s page: http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html —Rich

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While exploring a new stretch of a local smallmouth river (Flat R., MI, near Greenville), I came upon a real shallow stretch of water. Depths ranged from inches to about two feet.  The bass were very small and spooky. The last straw came when a group of wild canoeists (canoers?) paddled through the area I was fishing.  They were loud and obviously drunk (it seems to be a local ordinance that a canoe must have at least one six pack of Busch to be considered legal).  Discouraged, I strung up and started to walk back to shore and the truck. And damn near stepped on a sucker about 14" long!  I froze while he continued to slowly move along the bottom.  Then I realized that there were about thirty or forty of them moving together.  They didn’t spook because of me but they knew enough to avoid me. Well, I hadn’t caught much in the way of fish so I figured, hell, it’s swimming and has fins so I’ll try for it.  I tossed out almost everything I had for about an hour.  Dries, streamers, nymphs, attractors, salmon eggs left over from last fall, everything.  The only action I got was when I lined one of them and he moved a little faster than usual. Now the question: Exactly what do these fish eat and what flies imitate it?  I prefer bass and trout, enjoy panfish and the occassional pike but I’ve never cast for suckers or carp.  I’m not an expert flyfisherman but I can generally put it where I want it.  What’s needed to catch those fish!? Thanks, Brian "Frustrated but Still up to the Challenge" Austin Brian Austin The desperate never believe the obvious

Brian, I have caught many suckers fishing for trout, almost always on nymphs.                                 Mark Faulkner

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Check the July/August issue of American Angler magazine for some tips on fly fishing for suckers. John Likakis

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While exploring a new stretch of a local smallmouth river (Flat R., MI, near Greenville), I came upon a real shallow stretch of water. Depths ranged from inches to about two feet.  The bass were very small and spooky. The last straw came when a group of wild canoeists (canoers?) paddled through the area I was fishing.  They were loud and obviously drunk (it seems to be a local ordinance that a canoe must have at least one six pack of Busch to be considered legal).  Discouraged, I strung up and started to walk back to shore and the truck. And damn near stepped on a sucker about 14" long!  I froze while he continued to slowly move along the bottom.  Then I realized that there were about thirty or forty of them moving together.  They didn’t spook because of me but they knew enough to avoid me. Well, I hadn’t caught much in the way of fish so I figured, hell, it’s swimming and has fins so I’ll try for it.  I tossed out almost everything I had for about an hour.  Dries, streamers, nymphs, attractors, salmon eggs left over from last fall, everything.  The only action I got was when I lined one of them and he moved a little faster than usual. Now the question: Exactly what do these fish eat and what flies imitate it?  I prefer bass and trout, enjoy panfish and the occassional pike but I’ve never cast for suckers or carp.  I’m not an expert flyfisherman but I can generally put it where I want it.  What’s needed to catch those fish!? Thanks, Brian "Frustrated but Still up to the Challenge" Austin Brian Austin The desperate never believe the obvious

much real help.  I have caught suckers a number of times (fair hooked) and on one occasion in the Kakisa River in the NWT, thought I had hooked up with a world record grayling. The fly was a Golden Stone but the kicker is that the water was quite turbid. Because suckers feed off the bottom it is unlikely in clear water with any velocity that you will have much chance. Small nymphs right on the bottom in rather slow moving water will fare better. Carp are another story altogether, they will take a moving fly.

Response:

While exploring a new stretch of a local smallmouth river (Flat R., MI, near Greenville), I came upon a real shallow stretch of water. Depths ranged from inches to about two feet.  The bass were very small and spooky. The last straw came when a group of wild canoeists (canoers?) paddled through the area I was fishing.  They were loud and obviously drunk (it seems to be a local ordinance that a canoe must have at least one six pack of Busch to be considered legal).  Discouraged, I strung up and started to walk back to shore and the truck. And damn near stepped on a sucker about 14" long!  I froze while he continued to slowly move along the bottom.  Then I realized that there were about thirty or forty of them moving together.  They didn’t spook because of me but they knew enough to avoid me. Well, I hadn’t caught much in the way of fish so I figured, hell, it’s swimming and has fins so I’ll try for it.  I tossed out almost everything I had for about an hour.  Dries, streamers, nymphs, attractors, salmon eggs left over from last fall, everything.  The only action I got was when I lined one of them and he moved a little faster than usual. Now the question: Exactly what do these fish eat and what flies imitate it?  I prefer bass and trout, enjoy panfish and the occassional pike but I’ve never cast for suckers or carp.  I’m not an expert flyfisherman but I can generally put it where I want it.  What’s needed to catch those fish!? Thanks, Brian "Frustrated but Still up to the Challenge" Austin Brian Austin The desperate never believe the obvious

Response:

. . . And damn near stepped on a sucker about 14" long!  I froze while he continued to slowly move along the bottom.  Then I realized that there were about thirty or forty of them moving together.  They didn’t spook because of me but they knew enough to avoid me. Well, I hadn’t caught much in the way of fish so I figured, hell, it’s swimming and has fins so I’ll try for it.  I tossed out almost everything I had for about an hour.  Dries, streamers, nymphs, attractors, salmon eggs left over from last fall, everything.  The only action I got was when I lined one of them and he moved a little . . . Exactly what do these fish eat and what flies imitate it?  I prefer

Unlike carp, suckers appear to be exclusively bottom feeders.  Their underslung mouths do not encourage them to take anything not actually resting on the bottom: and their digestions probably absorb anything from algae to big insects e.g. stoneflies.  They seem especially fond of worms, which hints they may scent food. A northern species of sucker called the Northern Redhorse is a beautiful fish (red fins) that runs to 30 inches and could break most fly tippets. Because so unafraid of predators, they can be caught on big nymphs if you can manage a dead drift within one inch of the bottom.  Dead drift (no skidding sideways) is ultra difficult on tippets strong enough to land a big one. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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… snip stuff preliminary to trying to catch suckers … Now the question: Exactly what do these fish eat and what flies imitate it?  I prefer bass and trout, enjoy panfish and the occassional pike but I’ve never cast for suckers or carp.  I’m not an expert flyfisherman but I can generally put it where I want it.  What’s needed to catch those fish!? Thanks, Brian "Frustrated but Still up to the Challenge" Austin

I am no expert, so have several grains of salt handy, but I believe that suckers determine what is food primarily by the smell of it, whereas bass and trout are sight hunters, determining what is food primarily by what it looks like (I think pike fall into this group as well).  Anyway, because a fly smells like a lump of feathers, fur, and steel, I would guess that you would have limited success with them.   Maybe if you smear that wet fly real well with extract of rotted fish… FWIW, etc. tq

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While exploring a new stretch of a local smallmouth river (Flat R., MI, near Greenville), I came upon a real shallow stretch of water. Depths ranged from inches to about two feet.  The bass were very small and spooky. The last straw came when a group of wild canoeists (canoers?) paddled through the area I was fishing.  They were loud and obviously drunk (it seems to be a local ordinance that a canoe must have at least one six pack of Busch to be considered legal).  Discouraged, I strung up and started to walk back to shore and the truck. And damn near stepped on a sucker about 14" long!  I froze while he continued to slowly move along the bottom.  Then I realized that there were about thirty or forty of them moving together.  They didn’t spook because of me but they knew enough to avoid me. Well, I hadn’t caught much in the way of fish so I figured, hell, it’s swimming and has fins so I’ll try for it.  I tossed out almost everything I had for about an hour.  Dries, streamers, nymphs, attractors, salmon eggs left over from last fall, everything.  The only action I got was when I lined one of them and he moved a little faster than usual. Now the question: Exactly what do these fish eat and what flies imitate it?  I prefer bass and trout, enjoy panfish and the occassional pike but I’ve never cast for suckers or carp.  I’m not an expert flyfisherman but I can generally put it where I want it.  What’s needed to catch those fish!? Thanks, Brian "Frustrated but Still up to the Challenge" Austin Brian Austin The desperate never believe the obvious

Dear "Frustrated but Still up to the Challenge": When I began fly fishing at the late old age of 24, I apprenticed under the tutelage of a fine old fly fishing gentleman who gave me the real inside skinny on fly fishing and fly selection. The only cast you will ever need is the roll cast and the only fly that will work in such a situation is a #4 Hair Wing Royal Coachman Streamer tied on a Mustad 9575. His reasoning: that the Limerick bend and exaggerated barb of that particular Mustad hook does a superior job of holding the bait. Bait: His enticement of choice was the lowly earth worm, but in your case I would heartlily recommend thin strips of calf’s liver which have aged several weeks or months until dark green (the back of the fridge is perfect for the aging process) and amazingly pungent. Tackle: I recommend a 8-9′, 6 wt., fiberglass, Garcia "Conolon" rod with a "sturdy" action. Line: 6-7 wt. level line. Terminal Tackle: 2-3′ of 0X leader material tied to the line with a double overhand knot. You will need weight to get it to the feeding depth (bottom), so about 1/4 oz. of split shot should do it (remember to use "non-lead" split shot-for the environment you know). Method: Using 6" forceps attach the liver to the aforementioned fly, impaling it twice over the point and barb, douse with a very generous squirt of "Easy Cheez" (my favorite is the "Swiss Flavor"). Simply "Chuck & Duck", quartering upstream, directly into the feeding lane. As the fly approaches the fish, should he not notice the fly (some suckers suffer from "Squirreling Disease" which affects their sight and smell), simply yank the rod 2-3′ upward in the "Field and Stream" position and drive the fly into it’s snout (this is referred to as the "induced take"). Landing the Fish: After a spectacular fight and amazing display of water acrobatics (hauling it in), I implore you to practice "catch and release" fishing, whereby you "release" the fish as far as you can into the woods (ALWAYS be sure to bring "flushable" baby wipes for removing the sucker’s protective slime from your hands and waders after a "catch and release"). This is the option of choice for the true sportsman. Unless of course there happen to be spectators nearby who have emmigrated from country whose vast culinary heritage has bestowed up them a deeper appreciation for such a delicacy. In these cases, I salute their superior senses of taste and smell and it is my practice to reward them with a gift of the fish. Cooking Methods (Once in a while ALL true sportsman will kill a fish to eat): Refer to Schweibert’s "Trout" as many good recipes. adaptable to the tasty sucker, therein can be found. This section of the book alone is makes the purchase of this fine work a justifiable expense. Other great fish cookbooks have been written by LaFontaine and Borger and can be found in better fly shops everywhere. Tight Lines!! Todd L. McCagg "Dry Fly… Schmy Fly!"

Response:

Question:

release fly fishing only legislation.  Many states throughout the country have "C&R FlyFishing Only" streams or sections of streams; unfortunately North Carolina is not one of them.  

Well David, I think, actually I know, that you are wrong in the above statement.  North Carolina has many C&R only streams or sections thereof.  Two of the most noteworthy are Lost Cove Creek and part of the South Toe River.  You have to hunt to find them, but they are there.   Also, you should try some of NC’s Wild Trout streams.  They are not strictly C&R, for certain reasons, but they will challenge and amaze even the best fly fishers. Good luck with that legislation! -Paul *                       *    "To catch a river unguarded is less a        * * Paul "Cousin" Graham   *    matter of where to look than of when, and   * *                          *  I have a secret time."-Ted Leeson           *

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We have all seen our favorite streams become glutted as the interest in fishing grows.  Interest in fishing with bait, lure and fly.   At the risk of sounding elitist, which I am not by any stretch of the imagination, I feel motivated to inquire about the steps one might take to push for catch & release fly fishing only legislation.  Many states throughout the country have "C&R FlyFishing Only" streams or sections of streams; unfortunately North Carolina is not one of them.   Can anyone provide information or feedback that would help me get the ball rolling. David T. Pharr

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