Question:

For August, I’m hoping to put together a trip to fish the areas around Fordyce lake.. and this time, backpack required!

Generally I find that if fish refuse in those high lakes, try going smaller like 18 or 20.  Most times for hungry wild trout you figure size 14 will do but for some reason those high country fish can get skittish. Mu

Response:

I tried the 18’s I had, including caddis, mosquito, adams, etc.. I agree, in the high lakes I’ve fished smaller is often better. I think some of it had to do with my casting technique, which make me work harder to get a nice soft landing to the fly… when I laid it down softly, the success ratio was definitely higher, though still not that high. Thanks for the suggestion… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For August, I’m hoping to put together a trip to fish the areas around Fordyce lake.. and this time, backpack required! Generally I find that if fish refuse in those high lakes, try going smaller like 18 or 20.  Most times for hungry wild trout you figure size 14 will do but for some reason those high country fish can get skittish. Mu

Response:

This was supossed to be a backpacking trip for seven… we all got packs, bear cannisters, portable stoves, lots of dried food, and a bota bag filled with wine.  Well, it didn’t turn out to be a backpacking trip, but it still was a good weekend. We headed to Leavitt Lake in California, off Highway 108 on the east side of the hill.  Our plan was to drive to Leavitt (need a 4wd vehicle to get there which my friend Jim provided), and then put the packs on and head up to one of the wilderness lakes in those parts, of which there are three in reasonable proximity (that is, a short enough hike for the nine year old that Jim brought along).  Well, once they realized that campfires were out of the picture for any of the wilderness lakes, it was me versus everyone else… I lost. Leavitt is a nice enough lake… 9k feet up, so not much tree cover, but picturesque in its own right.  It’s stocked with Rainbow trout, but evidently has a self sustaining population of brookies.  We were warned about the big mosquito population by the ranger, but it turned out NOT to be a problem. After setting up camp, we rigged the kids and Brent’s wife up with Power Bait, and headed the 100 feet to the lake.  Jim, Brent and I tied on a Caddis, and I hooked up pretty quick with a 4" brookie.  I thought that was a pretty good sign… at the time. Brent’s wife Amber hooked up pretty quickly with a nice rainbow, and soon the kids followed… but with the exception of the (now 2) little 4" brookies I caught, the flies were getting their butts kicked by the bait dunkers.  Thankfully, they brought in enough trout to fill up the fry pan, so we had a great dinner. Day 2 found us hiking up to Ski lake to try our hand at Golden Trout.  A group of flyfishermen passed us on the way up the trail and didn’t have much good to say about the fishing… skunked.  Well, the lake is pretty… she had a good personality, I guess. Well, pretty much the same story as Leavitt… bait 4, flies 0.  I tried everything in my fly box with no success.  I couldn’t tell what the trout were rising for, but it didn’t matter.  I did manage a strike on a mosquito, but missed the set, that’s it. We did notice the lightening off to the east after an hour or so of fishing, but everything seemed to be avoiding our little valley, and you know how those sierra storms are… most of the time they don’t amount to much.  Except this time.  Brent must have had some kind of premonition, because he announced it was time to go… I didn’t see the point as the other storms had passed us by, but good thing we followed his instincts, as lightening, rain, wind, and then the hail followed.. yea, hail.  Since it was beautiful when we left, nobody had anything but t-shirts and shorts, so the hail was quite.. er… entertaining.  The race back to camp was on. Well, remember back to the beginning… this was to be a backpacking trip.  Sometimes camping by a vehicle is a good thing, in an electrical storm, for example… I guess some things just work out. Back at Leavitt, post-storm, the little brookies (again, 4" tops) were still willing, but only for me it seemed… but the rainbows were more than happy to chomp on some power bait, so dinner again featured trout with the pasta. Day three was to be spent at Koenig lake, another short hike… yea, was.  On the way, from above, we hear calls for "Dad" and then calls for "help."  It turns out a 15 year old kid decided to take a break from fishing to climb the 1k foot ridge behind Leavitt Lake, and got himself stuck… couldn’t get higher or lower.  As much as I wanted to run by with my fingers in my ears saying "I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you" I knew we would end up involved in this, and sure enough we did.  Jim and Brent went up the hill to try and help the kid out of the situation, and I stayed below with the motorla FRS radio.  To make a long story a little shorter, an ex marine named Mike came out of nowhere and helped the kid out just before the hail and thunderstorm came, again, while the official Search and Rescue team of six marines were heading up the hill.   The marines turned back and left, but not before I got to check out the set of binoculars the leader had.  Auto focus, serious power, do you think they’d notice if they were missing??  Anyway, the end result was no side trip for the day, and lots of non fishing activities, including me driving the truck out to the road for cell phone reception to call in the problem to the rangers. Leavitt once again cooperated with some rainbows and tiny brookies once the excitement was over, so again we had fresh trout for dinner.  Jim and Brent were both fishless on the fly, though Brent did catch a couple on bait.  Jim wanted to be the purist so he kept plugging away at the flies with no luck. Final morning, heading out around noon, so there’s plenty of time for more fishing at Leavitt.  Same story, except Amber casually grabs Brent’s flyrod while he’s bait dunking, and after missing several strikes, connects with a nice 10" brookie.  She’d never flyfished before, yea, you know the story.  She caught the nicest golden, the nicest brookie, and had no trouble connecting with rainbows.  Maybe next time I’ll go with no rookies…  Jim had his chance to connect too, but missed the set on a couple of brookies… ended up getting skunked for the trip, he’ll get his next time. Over all, a great trip, but on the way back the highway parallels the middle fork of the Stanislas River… no time to stop, but I made a mental note, I’m definitely coming up there to fish the river.  Maybe next time… For August, I’m hoping to put together a trip to fish the areas around Fordyce lake.. and this time, backpack required! Thanks for reading…

Response:

Question:

Hello all, I did a search for past messages and didn’t find any help. Could anyone suggest a book(s) for info on flyfishing in Montana? It would be much appreciated. I live in E. Washington and am looking to make a few trips to into Montana this year. The books don’t have to be super-detailed–I’d prefer overviews to an entire book on just one river. However, if the book covered a "region" (like Yellowstone Park), that would be fine. I’m just looking for some basic info on times, hatches, accessability, etc. Thanks! -TyKo

Response:

Flyfisher’s guide to Montana by Greg Thomas is pretty good. The Montana Angling Guide by Fothergill and Sterling is also good. The former has a better narrative and information on lodging, dining, etc. The latter has better maps.  All my opinions, of course. John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, I did a search for past messages and didn’t find any help. Could anyone suggest a book(s) for info on flyfishing in Montana? It would be much appreciated. I live in E. Washington and am looking to make a few trips to into Montana this year. The books don’t have to be super-detailed–I’d prefer overviews to an entire book on just one river. However, if the book covered a "region" (like Yellowstone Park), that would be fine. I’m just looking for some basic info on times, hatches, accessability, etc. Thanks! -TyKo

Response:

Flyfisher’s guide to Montana by Greg Thomas is pretty good. The Montana Angling Guide by Fothergill and Sterling is also good. The former has a better narrative and information on lodging, dining, etc. The latter has better maps.  All my opinions, of course.

I found the latter extremely helpful because of all the pullout maps, in a ring binder format  you can easily lay flat.

Response:

Question:

[ . . . ] "Since his graduation from Princeton summa cum laude in 1983, Walter Kirn ‘83 has studied at Oxford University, worked as an editor at Spy magazine in New York City, published an acclaimed collection of stories, My Hard Bargain, and a novel, She Needed Me, and freelanced for various publications. Six years ago, he left Manhattan for Montana, attracted by the silence and the barking dogs that keep one from going ‘too deep into the verbal jungle.’ He became New York magazine’s book critic and continues to write regularly for several New York-based national publications from Montana, where he lives with his wife, Maggie-the daughter of actress Margot Kidder and writer Tom McGuane-and their 10-month-old baby, Maisie . . . .

[ . . . ] This isn’t real, is it? Are you sure one of the _New York Magazine_ competition writers didn’t do this? E. Penrose

Response:

This is rich. In the May 31, 1999 issue of Time Magazine, featuring a Special Report: How to Spot a Troubled Kid, Walter Kirn, author of the article "Inside Ritalin" wrote a piece titled: "The Danger of Suppressing Sadness – What if Holden Caulfield had been taking Prozac?" Holden Caufield, as I’m sure you remember, was the dropout hero of J.D. Salinger’s "The Catcher in the Rye." In that article, Kirn states: " . . . . I know from my own experience with clinical depression (contracted as an adult and treated with a combination of therapy and drugs) that such diseases are real and formidable, impossible to wish away . . . ." Pshaw. Tom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I purchased the December issue of GQ today, which because of the really hot pictures of Charlize Theron on the cover and elsewhere in the magazine, wasn’t a total waste of $3.00. The article, "Inside Ritalin," by Walter Kirn is a complete work of fiction, in my opinion, both as it related to Kirn’s ADD status – ". . . . the symptoms first appeared in junior high school . . . ." – and his experience with Ritalin – " . . . . there I am, as jazzed as any speed freak who’s just put his girlfriend in the hospital after an all-night quarrel in a motel room . . . . ," unless he was taking 800 mg. a day. Kirn is a book critic and fiction writer.  His 1999

novel "Thumbsucker" is a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cynical coming of age story.  "When young Justin Cobb is finally cured of his thumbsucking habit, his obsessions change to less benign ones that include sex, drugs, fly-fishing, Mormonism, and Ritalin. This comic novel is set vividly in the world of the 1980s." From the Princeton "In Review" November 3, 1999 http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_old/PAW99-00/04- 1103/1103irtx.html "Interview with Walter Kirn ‘83 "Since his graduation from Princeton summa cum laude in 1983, Walter Kirn ‘83 has studied at Oxford University, worked as an editor at Spy magazine in New York City, published an acclaimed collection of stories, My Hard Bargain, and a novel, She Needed Me, and freelanced for various publications. Six years ago, he left Manhattan for Montana, attracted by the silence and the barking dogs that keep one from going ‘too deep into the verbal jungle.’ He became New York magazine’s book critic and continues to write regularly for several New York-based national publications from Montana, where he lives with his wife, Maggie-the daughter of actress Margot Kidder and writer Tom McGuane- and their 10-month-old baby, Maisie . . . . "Q: Do you feel torn between fiction and nonfiction? "A: My primary ambition is to be a fiction writer. At some point I made a conscious decision not to teach-yet-and so the alternative was quote unquote grub street, which I think is an honorable tradition much maligned by the lofty academics of the 20th century. I write for four magazines-Vanity Fair, GQ, Time, and New York-and for each one I try to exercise a different faculty. . . . Being a critic wasn’t an aspiration of mine, but it was something I could do from Montana, where I moved six years ago . . . . "Q: Tell us about your family. "A: I grew up in a tiny Minnesota town of 500 people called Marine-on-St.-Croix. My father actually went to Princeton, Class of 1960, and was a patent attorney at 3M in Minnesota. My mother, like the mother in Thumbsucker, was a registered nurse. In its vital statistics, the family in the book very much resembles my own. But I get tired of explaining: A writer’s like the magpie, he picks everything shiny and brings it back to his nest . . . It’s mix and match, exaggerate, distort, delete, imagine-it’s not transcribe." "Mix and match, exaggerate, distort, delete, imagine" fairly describes Kirn’s purportedly autobiographical "Inside Ritalin." Watch out for "literary types" and save your $3.00 for something

useful. Tell us more about those pictures…. — Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts–DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!

Response:

I read Vanity Fair regularly, and have never noticed thisWalter Kim……am I missing something?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I purchased the December issue of GQ today, which because of the really hot pictures of Charlize Theron on the cover and elsewhere in the magazine, wasn’t a total waste of $3.00. The article, "Inside Ritalin," by Walter Kirn is a complete work of fiction, in my opinion, both as it related to Kirn’s ADD status – ". . . . the symptoms first appeared in junior high school . . . ." – and his experience with Ritalin – " . . . . there I am, as jazzed as any speed freak who’s just put his girlfriend in the hospital after an all-night quarrel in a motel room . . . . ," unless he was taking 800 mg. a day. Kirn is a book critic and fiction writer.  His 1999 novel "Thumbsucker" is a cynical coming of age story.  "When young Justin Cobb is finally cured of his thumbsucking habit, his obsessions change to less benign ones that include sex, drugs, fly-fishing, Mormonism, and Ritalin. This comic novel is set vividly in the world of the 1980s." From the Princeton "In Review" November 3, 1999 http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_old/PAW99-00/04- 1103/1103irtx.html "Interview with Walter Kirn ‘83 "Since his graduation from Princeton summa cum laude in 1983, Walter Kirn ‘83 has studied at Oxford University, worked as an editor at Spy magazine in New York City, published an acclaimed collection of stories, My Hard Bargain, and a novel, She Needed Me, and freelanced for various publications. Six years ago, he left Manhattan for Montana, attracted by the silence and the barking dogs that keep one from going ‘too deep into the verbal jungle.’ He became New York magazine’s book critic and continues to write regularly for several New York-based national publications from Montana, where he lives with his wife, Maggie-the daughter of actress Margot Kidder and writer Tom McGuane- and their 10-month-old baby, Maisie . . . . "Q: Do you feel torn between fiction and nonfiction? "A: My primary ambition is to be a fiction writer. At some point I made a conscious decision not to teach-yet-and so the alternative was quote unquote grub street, which I think is an honorable tradition much maligned by the lofty academics of the 20th century. I write for four magazines-Vanity Fair, GQ, Time, and New York-and for each one I try to exercise a different faculty. . . . Being a critic wasn’t an aspiration of mine, but it was something I could do from Montana, where I moved six years ago . . . . "Q: Tell us about your family. "A: I grew up in a tiny Minnesota town of 500 people called Marine-on-St.-Croix. My father actually went to Princeton, Class of 1960, and was a patent attorney at 3M in Minnesota. My mother, like the mother in Thumbsucker, was a registered nurse. In its vital statistics, the family in the book very much resembles my own. But I get tired of explaining: A writer’s like the magpie, he picks everything shiny and brings it back to his nest . . . It’s mix and match, exaggerate, distort, delete, imagine-it’s not transcribe." "Mix and match, exaggerate, distort, delete, imagine" fairly describes Kirn’s purportedly autobiographical "Inside Ritalin." Watch out for "literary types" and save your $3.00 for something useful. Tell us more about those pictures…. — Mark Probert Make sure your vote counts–DO NOT vote from the Banana Republic of Florida!

Response:

~~~ Words escape me.  Rent "The Devil’s Advocate" for a good gander, and don’t break the rewind button on your VCR remote. _____

Kim……am I missing something?" ~~~ He’s not not cup of espresso.  I did a google.com search on "Walter KIRN" and came up with a lot of stuff he’s written in "New York Magazine" and "Time", each of which have on-line versions, but I had never heard of him before. "Vanity Fair" is not on-line, as far as I can tell.   This doesn’t really answer your question, though. Cheers, Tom

Response:

Magazine_ competition writers didn’t do this?" ~~~ It’s real in the same sense that the writings of Hunter S. Thompson are real. Cheers, Tom

Response:

I purchased the December issue of GQ today, which because of the really hot pictures of Charlize Theron on the cover and elsewhere in the magazine, wasn’t a total waste of $3.00. The article, "Inside Ritalin," by Walter Kirn is a complete work of fiction, in my opinion, both as it related to Kirn’s ADD status – ". . . . the symptoms first appeared in junior high school . . . ." – and his experience with Ritalin – " . . . . there I am, as jazzed as any speed freak who’s just put his girlfriend in the hospital after an all-night quarrel in a motel room . . . . ," unless he was taking 800 mg. a day. Kirn is a book critic and fiction writer.  His 1999 novel "Thumbsucker" is a cynical coming of age story.  "When young Justin Cobb is finally cured of his thumbsucking habit, his obsessions change to less benign ones that include sex, drugs, fly-fishing, Mormonism, and Ritalin. This comic novel is set vividly in the world of the 1980s." From the Princeton "In Review" November 3, 1999 http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archive_old/PAW99-00/04-1103/1103irtx.html "Interview with Walter Kirn ‘83 "Since his graduation from Princeton summa cum laude in 1983, Walter Kirn ‘83 has studied at Oxford University, worked as an editor at Spy magazine in New York City, published an acclaimed collection of stories, My Hard Bargain, and a novel, She Needed Me, and freelanced for various publications. Six years ago, he left Manhattan for Montana, attracted by the silence and the barking dogs that keep one from going ‘too deep into the verbal jungle.’ He became New York magazine’s book critic and continues to write regularly for several New York-based national publications from Montana, where he lives with his wife, Maggie-the daughter of actress Margot Kidder and writer Tom McGuane-and their 10-month-old baby, Maisie . . . . "Q: Do you feel torn between fiction and nonfiction? "A: My primary ambition is to be a fiction writer. At some point I made a conscious decision not to teach-yet-and so the alternative was quote unquote grub street, which I think is an honorable tradition much maligned by the lofty academics of the 20th century. I write for four magazines-Vanity Fair, GQ, Time, and New York-and for each one I try to exercise a different faculty. . . . Being a critic wasn’t an aspiration of mine, but it was something I could do from Montana, where I moved six years ago . . . . "Q: Tell us about your family. "A: I grew up in a tiny Minnesota town of 500 people called Marine-on-St.-Croix. My father actually went to Princeton, Class of 1960, and was a patent attorney at 3M in Minnesota. My mother, like the mother in Thumbsucker, was a registered nurse. In its vital statistics, the family in the book very much resembles my own. But I get tired of explaining: A writer’s like the magpie, he picks everything shiny and brings it back to his nest . . . It’s mix and match, exaggerate, distort, delete, imagine-it’s not transcribe." "Mix and match, exaggerate, distort, delete, imagine" fairly describes Kirn’s purportedly autobiographical "Inside Ritalin." Watch out for "literary types" and save your $3.00 for something useful. Cheers, Tom

Response:

Question:

 East of Aspen, there

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. [deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Reminds of something I saw on the Chilliwack River a few years back: there was a nice backwater full of coho on the other side of the river but the water was low enough to ford. I saw a guy waring rain pants duck taped to rubber boots fishing the backwater. I wrinkled my brow and wondered how well that worked. I was skeptical it could keep much water from finding its way into his boots. About an hour later he confirmed my skepticism by peeling off the tape and emptying a guart or more water from each boot. OTH I’ve heard tell that some winter steelheaders modify neoprene waders by cutting the worn boots off and gluing them to a pair of water proof snowmobiling boots with aquaseal or goop: the trick is to fit the neoprene leg over an empty coffee can to widen it then slip the can into the boot and pull the neoprene over the boot and apply copious amounts of glue. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

[deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set….

[deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Agree completely with Ralph H., Matarelli makes the best whip finisher – and there instructions enclosed. Its real advantage for us with rough hands.

Response:

Didn’t we have this thread about a year ago? Guys spaming each other on" to use or not to use" a whip finisher? Is this dream? Joel Axelrad

Response:

Thanks for the neat idea, Bob — I just made myself one of these and tried it out tonight. It worked great! Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. Thanks again! R.S. Heaton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard (remainder of cool idea snipped)

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I have a Griffin and would not think of tying without it. They are cheap enough.  I suggest just buying one and trying it.  You’re not out much if you decide that it does not suit your style.

Response:

I prefer to whip finish by hand.  Try both the tools are not that expensive and see what you prefer.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Neat idea, I’ll give it a whirl. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

0] : … : Does anyone : here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? : … : Pierre I am not going to disagree with either camp on using or not using a tool here. I’ll just add something I have lately discovered that applies to either for small flies and fine thread. If you rub some beeswax (or I suppose parafin) on the part of the thread that’s going to be in the finish, the friction of drawing it up melts the wax and lubricates as it snaps into place, and then sets so you don’t need to use head cement. I find that I don’t break 8/0 thread at this step nearly as much when I do this, and I don’t end up with cement clogged eyes. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily.

I tried hackle guards but I don’t have enough hands to manage thread, whip finisher and hackle guard at the same time.  No talent, I guess. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie.

Great cheap solution, though mine were given to me when a fellow ff’er cleaned out his junk.  I wouldn’t want to pay some of those prices now. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Peter        Merry Christmas

Response:

Pierre, I was taught to do a one hand whip finish many years ago.  I have tried to use a whip finish tool and never felt that I had the same control of the thread. I can place each wrap exactly where I want it with my hand and keep the thread taught. Never felt I had the same control with the whip finish tools I’ve tried. Of course, I never gave them a lot of use. I will say that with the technique I use it helps to have good vision (the only body equipment that still works as originally designed) but this is probably true for any fly head finishing.  Good luck. I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

– Steve Vaughn Kodak Park Health, Safety & Environmental Services Eastman Kodak Company – http://www.kodak.com

Response:

with my eyes I could whip without a toll… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

My half hitch tool has a dubbing pick on one end which I use to clean hook eyes and the other end has a half hitch tool which I use for compressing spun deer hair. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

(Peter Charles) says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pierre   The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

I am not a precise fly tier and have found that the more beat up a fly gets, the better the trout like it.  A whip finishing tool is just an additional step in the tying process and an additional tool on my workspace. The trout don’t seem to mind if I overlay a wrap or two when tying off the head. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Response:

Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice!

I’ve got a Griffin whip-finisher and consider it essential.  I *can* do a hand whip-finish but I find the tool helps me position the thread better which is very important on small dries with hackle near the eye.  I figured out how to use mine from the directions which came with it, and it only took a minute to get it right.  I suggest that you practice on a bare hook – that way you can figure out how everything is supposed to work without the pressure of having to get it right Or Else..!  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

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With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

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Pierre

  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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Never use ‘em on standard hackled dry flies anymore, almost always use a half hitch tool these days. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there.

I recommend http://thesmokies.com/oldsmoky_outfitters/flytying/index.htm for an excellent illustrated description of how to use a whip finish tool, along with other helpful advice for beginners (like me). — something bogus to avoid spam)

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I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Pierre I use it on some flies, a half-hitch tool on others and just my fingers on some. It really depends on the size of the fly.  I find half-hitch tools better for small dries, whip finishers better for salmon, spey etc.  But that’s just my preference.  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Take the time to learn it but get a set of half-hitch tools too. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

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Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Pierre;         I can’t imagine finishing a fly without one. Get one, you will never look back. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Question:

Well is there any here? All I seem to see is a bunch of intolerant wackos stating there political beliefs! "Why can’t we all just get along?" hehe I just subscribed to this group for fly fishing advice, but I think instead I will go talk to my dad and grandpa instead. Thanks for giving me the idea! Mike

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Well is there any here? All I seem to see is a bunch of intolerant wackos stating there political beliefs! "Why can’t we all just get along?" hehe I just subscribed to this group for fly fishing advice, but I think instead I will go talk to my dad and grandpa instead. Thanks for giving me the idea!

Talking to one’s parents and grandparents is always a good idea, IMO. — Charlie…

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says… Well is there any here? All I seem to see is a bunch of intolerant wackos stating there political beliefs! "Why can’t we all just get along?" hehe I just subscribed to this group for fly fishing advice, but I think instead I will go talk to my dad and grandpa instead. Thanks for giving me the idea! Mike

You are most certainly welcome. –Walt

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Well is there any here? All I seem to see is a bunch of intolerant wackos stating there political beliefs! "Why can’t we all just get along?" hehe I just subscribed to this group for fly fishing advice, but I think instead I will go talk to my dad and grandpa instead. Thanks for giving me the idea! Mike

OK. Just remember….in this group, as with most others, you get out of it what you put into it. I could point out the obvious, but I refrain. If you have a ligit question, post it, and you may be suprised at the quality of the answer. There again, life is full of

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Question:

i am looking for a recommendation for a guide for steelhead fishing on the north oregon coast. i will be in portland around xmas and would be grateful for any help in this regard.       thanks         greg

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i am looking for a recommendation for a guide for steelhead fishing on the north oregon coast. i will be in portland around xmas and would be grateful for any help in this regard.       thanks         greg

Check out TK Flysupply’s web page at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com:80/homepages/tk_flyshop/ I went fishing on one of the North Oregon coast streams with Kendall Lee a few weeks ago and caught a bright 20# Chinook. Kendall is a flyfishing pro and part time guide. He knows the rivers and can get you into fish. Your visit to Portland is timed right for early winter stealhead fishing. Should be a great time to fish. —        * * *  Some days I’d rather just give up and go fishing * * * Doug Freeman

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i am looking for a recommendation for a guide for steelhead fishing on the north oregon coast. i will be in portland around xmas and would be grateful for any help in this regard.       thanks         greg

Hi Greg: You might try calling Glenn Young.  He may not be actively guiding anymore, but can probably recommend someone to you.  He used to specialize in northern Oregon coastal fly fishing.  His number is 503-642-4570.  Best of luck!!! Paul

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Greg — Mark Bachmann at the Flyfishing Shop in Welches is one of the best, especially if you want to fish the Sandy in a drift boat.  The shop’s web page address is — http://www.teleport.com/~flyfish/index.html and the telephone number is — (503) 622-4607. Have fun. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am looking for a recommendation for a guide for steelhead fishing on the north oregon coast. i will be in portland around xmas and would be grateful for any help in this regard.       thanks         greg Hi Greg: You might try calling Glenn Young.  He may not be actively guiding anymore, but can probably recommend someone to you.  He used to specialize in northern Oregon coastal fly fishing.  His number is 503-642-4570.  Best of luck!!! Paul

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Question:

: Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The : only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get : and where we’ll build the whore house. I also want to know where Wayne will park his truck to begin the bean-fest. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The : only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get : and where we’ll build the whore house. I also want to know where Wayne will park his truck to begin the bean-fest.

Upwind of the beavers…that’ll drive ‘em out. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Hi Sandy-    Lets say some Californian just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in SW Montana. . . and immediately wanted to sub divide it, build a sprawling ranchette and get rid of the vermin. You need to kill the beavers quick because they’re flooding the road and you just washed your Orvis endorsed vehicle and don’t really want to drive on a wet road. And, hear this, it gets even worse: they’re eating willows. Can’t they eat dog food or bird seed or something?    To answer your question: grenades work well. Pull the pin, count to sixty real slow then throw it at one of those damn beavers.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com

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: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale : in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, : You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on : the third. I think with three houses, and probably fences, it’s no longer going to be the prettiest 100 acres in SW MT, beavers or no. That said, I’m kinda ambivalent about the beaver thing; I can see why one sides complains about our manipulation of nature, and I can see why someone would want to get rid of the ones on their property. So,… I would think letting a trapper come in would be the best, or is the fur market non-existant these days?  A beaver pelt used to be fairly valuable, I hope in this hypothetical example those three pelts weren’t tossed… Jon Cook.

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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Obviously Sandy hasn’t had to deal with the little "construction freaks".  Contact your local Fish and Game and they will put you in touch with a local or state trapper to remedy your problems.   It takes time and should be done in the Winter months as to not waste the hides.  They can be a real problem if you let them get a good hold on your drainage.  Good luck   Ace in Alaska

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat Obviously Sandy hasn’t had to deal with the little "construction freaks".  Contact your local Fish and Game and they will put you in touch with a local or state trapper to remedy your problems. It takes time and should be done in the Winter months as to not waste the hides.  They can be a real problem if you let them get a good hold on your drainage.  Good luck   Ace in Alaska

christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse.  It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

        to tell you the truth, i’ve never seen a beaver i wouldn’t love to eat.         a. wayne harrison

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: My advice ?   : One small cabin on the whole 100 acres on the dryest most protected spot. : Your wealth would exceed that possible by sub-dividing and developing. Maybe, but the question is whether he could afford the mortgage payments on that wealth.  Even the locals get caught up in this stuff… I see it all over.  Pretty soon, the latecomers will start complaining about all the growth… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Who knows, maybe the deer will visit you in your dreams.

in the mountain village,    the wind rustles the leaves. deep in the night, the deer    cry out beyond the end of dreams.            – minimoto no morotada

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Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get and where we’ll build the whore house.

I heard that a famous tributary of the Snake got its name when some trappers were sitting around and one said "someone go into town and bring a Hoback". TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Good old leg holds and conibear traps have always worked well for me. Don Kelly

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Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not!

This thread has been a lesson in mass-hysteria.  I don’t know whether Sandy has ever been to California, but he’s lived in Montana as long as I’ve known him. Sandy: do what you must with the beavers, but PLEASE don’t subdivide! If you Montanans continue to chop up Montana into little make-believe tourist ranches, as we have done to Colorado, where will I go on vacation? — -Wayne Trzyna

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Dear Ralph; Oh, Lord, man; you are great, just great!  I love it: you should be a writer or something.  

Yea, maybe he could write a guide about fishing the Sierra Nevada for trout. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not! This thread has been a lesson in mass-hysteria.  I don’t know whether Sandy has ever been to California, but he’s lived in Montana as long as I’ve known him.

I don’t know if Sandy has been to California either but I know that Ralph lives there and I lived in California all my life.  The environment that Ralph lived is nothing like the area that I lived.  So, I’m wondering, exactly what is a Californian’s natural environment, or does Jason just have some stereotypical view of what California is like. Sandy: do what you must with the beavers, but PLEASE don’t subdivide! If you Montanans continue to chop up Montana into little make-believe tourist ranches, as we have done to Colorado, where will I go on vacation?

Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get and where we’ll build the whore house. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What?

As long as the habitat is right, they will come back even if you kill them all right now.  Consider the South Platte corridor right through Denver. They can’t keep a young tree alive in this park-like setting for the beavers. My advice ?   One small cabin on the whole 100 acres on the dryest most protected spot. Your wealth would exceed that possible by sub-dividing and developing. Who knows, maybe the deer will visit you in your dreams. TimW

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This is a hot topic around here (NC) as well. Beaver populations are way up in suburbia – all their predators are gone and the beavers are protected in many areas. Many neighborhood lakes have trouble ranging from tree loss to damage to dams. I have lost a couple of trees on a lot I own to beavers. Sometimes they are trapped live and relocated, but there are fewer and fewer places to put them. I put chicken wire around the base of all the remaining trees. Nice simple solution for me – I only have a small lot to protect, and they can move on and bother someone else. But I can certainly understand how options might be limited in other cases. I am glad I don’t have to think about doing it, but I think there may be cases where it may be necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace?

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So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace?

I can tell this must be some sort of religious thing for you George since you seem to evoke the christian deity frequently on this topic. However, if you want a vote I would say "It all depends" (no, I’m not running for office). For example, our family has had hunting-fishing property here since the 30’s or 40’s (that’s the last 50-60 years). There have never been beaver in that area. The last 4 years or so beaver have moved in and have devastated many areas for fishing. This situation would very likely reach a new equilibrium in about 20-30 years as the stream beds moved, swamps formed etc. However, since beaver are new there, we are not willing to sacrifice a generation of fishing to reach that point- sorry but that’s too bad. However, if the original poster bought land that had been long colonized by beaver and the ecosystem and trout reproduction were in equilibrium with the beaver, then I would say 1) don’t bother them and 2) they are probably so locally widespread that you will never make much headway since they will continually recolonize the area and 3) they probably don’t negatively impact the fishing under those conditions and may actually help and 4) don’t develop (subdivide) the land. Signing off without a deprecating remark. Jon

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not!

JB

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Yah, the fact I missed mentioning you if you’re for killing beavers as a solution to every human who thinks they have a problem with beavers. They were here long before we arrived.  Seems "Man" cannot keep his hand off a spot on this earth for even a little bird to stand upon.  So, what is your problem that you cannot stand up for the life of one beaver?  Or two, or a family of them which make beautiful Brook Trout Ponds and rich soiled valley’s that produce in time . . . lush, green elk pastures or habitat for moose, etc? Instead of being a smart-ass and talking about fly tying and flies that are used on Beaver Ponds . . . your kind only can think of how to miss-manage our wildlife.  Right? right. So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace? christ.. George Gehrke / Mr. Gink

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Dear Ralph; Oh, Lord, man; you are great, just great!  I love it: you should be a writer or something.  You just took his post, stood on the complete opposite side of it, telling us like it is.  Just beautiful, man!  Those urbanites: now, with the age of delocation upon us, no wilderness is safe from their spoiling touch.  Keep up the good fight! Sincerely Jason Beary

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  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand

1.  Normal beaver life style includes excluding the young from the family i.e. forcing them to emigrate, when they get to be two years old.  So sooner or later the parent couple will die off and the site will become vacant. 2.  You can accelerate this by the combination of opportunistic shooting and trapping, easiest in winter when ice restricts their movement. Exterminating a single family seems to do no appreciable damage to the continent-wide beaver gene pool these days. 3.  But you need to bear in mind #1, i.e. there’s another beaver family two or three miles away that will be kicking its young adults out of the nest — and when they find your site vacant they will occupy it!  The cycle of occupation/vacancy seems to be 7 or 8 years.     As someone else posted, local wildlife authorities may (or may not) have better advice about both short-term and long-term control.  Beaver can do a lot of damage where species like poplar are abundant, e.g. can fell whole stands of mature trees and just leave them there without salvaging the proceeds. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

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So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What?

How about live trapping and relocation? — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada. see my illustrations at http://www.mackerel.com/fish/home.html

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Question:

 ANY ONE FLY FISHING THERE LATLEY I’LL BE 6/8/96 TO 6/14/96  ANY SPECIAL TRICKS. OR FLY’S, DRY OR WET. BY THE WAY IT’S  IN NORTHERN PLUMAS NATIONAL FOREST. –

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 ANY ONE FLY FISHING THERE LATLEY I’LL BE 6/8/96 TO 6/14/96  ANY SPECIAL TRICKS. OR FLY’S, DRY OR WET. BY THE WAY IT’S  IN NORTHERN PLUMAS NATIONAL FOREST.

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ANY ONE FLY FISHING THERE LATLEY I’LL BE 6/8/96 TO 6/14/96 ANY SPECIAL TRICKS. OR FLY’S, DRY OR WET. BY THE WAY IT’S IN NORTHERN PLUMAS NATIONAL FOREST.

Charlie Smith, the local tier and fly fisherman at Buck’s Lake, uses a Deer Hair Fly ( Humpy ) and the Rio Grand King dry fly in the streams.  He uses an Olive Wooly Worm in the lakes.  I would also have some #14/16 Adams Paraduns for the lakes. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Question:

I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction.  Nowhere mentioning pressure or area.  Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? pqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpqpq        Grasping another opportunity to be wrong! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

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Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip!

This isn’t sand on concrete (like a building site) but sand on a concrete boat ramp. All the ramps I’ve seen have been pretty slippery with weed and green gunk. If I used the same ramp every day, I’d scrub the thing clean and use Jeyes fluid or caustic soda on it occasionally to keep the gunk off. I know little about boat ramps, but I do know about silage clamps and slurry lagoons  (bleurgh !) – even for these noxious devices it’s worth doing a bit of scrubbing & hosing occasionally. Failing that, get as big a contact patch as you can. Soft rubber in small tread blocks (not great mud-plugger tread bars) and a low enough pressure to let the tyre flatten as much as is practical. — alt.flame – Making the world a safer place for postal workers.

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*snip* months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit.

    You must have a non-posi rear end on your van…  The emergency brake trick worked on my ‘91 Dakota when semi-stuck in sand (I had a non-posi rearend).   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael

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The next time this happens, try letting some air out of the rear tires – enough to increase the footprint somewhat. Be sure to air up again at the first opportunity. (Longrigger) writes: | Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. | I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone | and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. | | Longrigger

    Try pulling up the anchor on the boat…  (I couldn’t resist!)     No, really…  Tire pressure helps a ton, and the start of the pull is the most important part.  Once underway, roll into the throttle, but maintain traction…  (I think that all of the answers I have read here would help.)     …Sam

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Ron To get the best traction on a wet surface (a boat ramp) look for an all season tire with a high volume of tread surfaces.  This type of tire will have a lot of tiny cuts in the tread design.  When the tire is stressed pulling a load, this type of tread will flex and the edges of these cuts will grip the road surface.  Do Not consider the course off road tread design!  It has the worst hard surface traction. You should also be very light on the gas pedal.  A posi traction differential is also a big help if it is kept maintained and the clutches adjusted. Would you believe I pull a 3800 lb boat up steep boat ramps with a chev s-10 with no problems? Good Luck Wayne

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower.

. . . . Ron Morgan

Since you have more than enough horsepower – if one rear wheel starts to spin, hold the parking brake release open and apply the parking brake.  If you apply hard enough, both wheels will receive power. You can also try stabbing at the parking brake if the engine does not have enough power. Not a sure fire thing.  But it is another trick to but in your bag. Terry Dobie 83 CJ7 Hailey, ID

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I use my Jeep Grand Cherokee to haul my boat.  I learned the hard way that you have to ease into the pull.  I use an awefull ramp in East Falmouth Cape Cod that is always covered in a thin layer of scum.  On one occasion, I was sort of hurried by other boaters waiting to get out of the water and I pulled to fast.  Before I knew it, my tires were spinning and I was moving backward.  OOOOPS!  Thank god I stopped on time.   I now make sure that my air pressure is a little lower (more surface space), and that I ease into the pull.  At this one particular ramp, I often throw handfulls of sand onto the algae to create a little traction.  I read a lot of others posts where sand is the enemy, but in this scenerio, it works well. Good luck David

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

Ron, I have a Full size Dodge Van and have never had a problem pulling the boat up the ramp, except for one occasion. It was a really long and very wet ramp. I was having problems with wheel spin, I remember reading somthing about turning your front tires, (somthing about changing the pull ratio) and also applying the parking brake a bit. Boat pulled right out with out any wheel spin what-so-ever. Good luck. Michael

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How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.

        Er, does that imply that your current tires are rather bald?         If so, ‘nuf said.         Relative weight of vehicle and tow is important. (If the wheels         on your trailer are bigger than the wheels on your tow vehicle,         you’re in trouble. Saw a Chicago flatlander trying to tow a large         boat with his Beamer. Didn’t make it.)         In your case, the truck should have enough towing weight, but         the question is about weight on the rear wheels.         o The angle of the ramp tends to transfer more weight to the           rear wheels.         o Tounge weight of the trailer is important.         I am hauling a smaller  14′ runabout (40 horse motor) with a         Ranger pickup in a similar situation. I have no problems.         o I have a stick, so can control things better.         o When I was towing with a station wagon and automatic, I would:            o Put the transmission in second            o Step on the brake            o Give it some gas.            o Use the break as a clutch, slowly easing up so that there              was no jerk in the initial pull. Frank R. Borger – Physicist     ___      "I think medical research would show Michael Reese – U of Chicago   |___       that being a Cubs fan lengthens Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _    your life. Or maybe it just _seems_ ph: 312-791-8075 fa: 791-2517       |_)

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

After many years of enjoying the entertainment of watching people pull boats out at a wide variety of ramps throughout the western US, I know this: The initial pull to get a boat up out of the water is substantial, if you think of how hard it is to pull a small water skier up out of the water, imaging something with 30 times the weight and surface tension and bad hydrodynamics (the trailer…not the boat!) Many people think the best approach is to try to accelerate quickly to "get the damn thing going!", so they give their rig too much throttle. Once you break adhesion on a slick surface, you cannot pull a load equivalent to before you spun the wheels.  So if it spins, let off the throttle and let the wheels catch traction.  Then, try again with less acceleration.  Don’t think that spinning your wheels faster will get you up the ramp, ’cause it will only make it harder to get out. As other posts have said, lowering your tire pressure a little will help a lot.  But I have found on most ramps I can get my boat out by just driving a little more gently and not starting the spinning.  I find an auto trans works better, since you can accelerate from a standstill very slowly without having to dump the clutch.  But I have had several trucks with 4 speeds and a couple of 5 speeds.  You just gotta take it easy, and don’t try to pull the boat out fast.

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How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

Wide, sticky tires in my opinion. Though they spread the weight out more, there is more surface for gripping. It will reduce fuel economy somewhat though.  Also, I would worry more about hydroplaning on FRONT wheels where you could loose steering control. You might try putting some weight over that axle or letting 5lb of air out if you get stranded. George Bonser

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I thought friction was normal force times coefficient of friction.  Nowhere mentioning pressure or area.  Deflation is for soft surfaces where pressure does need to be reduced? …        Grasping another opportunity to be wrong!

seems you caught this opportunity nicely That’s the description you find in physics 101, but it doesn’t work well in this case.  It works for flat surfaces in contact (with a few other assumptions).  When you add rough surfaces, compressible and deformable surfaces, and weak surface features (like sand on the ramp) that can withstand only a (smallish) maximum force before breaking away, then surface area and tread play an important role.

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan

I stuck my truck in Galveston Bay this way.  My solution was to buy an old CJ5.  Now I drop into 4 wheel drive in low range.  And no problem. A cheaper alternative is to mount a trailer ball on the front which keeps those rear wheels way up out of the water. cfly — Charlie and Dorothy Fly Non-Trivial Solutions 2951 Marina Bay Dr. Suite 130-349 League City, TX  77573-2733

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he one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires.  I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.

Man, sand on concrete can REALLY cause you to slip! Sand on ICE is ok but no sand is better on non-frozen concrete. George Bonser

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what kind of wear this produced on my transmission. Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well. Ron Morgan

    Ron I had the same ‘problem’ with my old truck (‘91 Dakota with limited slip).  I would put up a slippery ramp and one tire would spin (no posi!)…  I helped the situation by putting all of the crap in the back of the truck that was in the boat, to put more weight over the rear tires (Coolers, skis, gas cans, clothes, etc.)  This made a difference.  I don’t know what type of truck you have, or if it has posi, but with my NEW ‘95 Dakota w/posi + 5 speed I am able to pull that same boat, with all of the crap still in the boat, with no problem out of the same ramp.  I do run a lower tire pressure, as this tends to put more rubber onto the ground, giving more traction.  You might try that too…(it wouldn’t hurt).       BTW  If you didn’t already know this, when pulling out of a boat ramp with a automatic trans, and you work pretty hard to pull that boat up (any pull should be considered) the ramp, make sure you don’t pull up to the staging area and shut off your truck while securing you boat. All of the heat generated by the pull will not leave the transmission (as it didn’t get cooled yet by the transmission cooler)…and can cause a lot of wear/tear/damage to your transmission.  My bone-head friend went through 2 transmissions over 2 seasons going to the Colorado river with his boat.  Every time he got it out of the water he would shut down, secure the boat, then take off…with an air temp of about 110 F. that truck would almost boil the transmission fluid!!!  He learned.     I got a 5 speed ( no cooler needed!), and it works a lot better than a automatic (at least for me it does).     My $.02     ..Sam

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& Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 & pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The & boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, & of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. & Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off & other boats that were just pulled out. & My truck can just BARELY pull the boat up the ramp under these & conditions. If it’s dry, no problem, but when the ramp is wet, & the tires slip and spin, sometimes even smoking. It’s a very, & very marginal situation. Last night, I came very close to being & stranded at a deserted ramp after dark; I could *not* get that & boat up that ramp, and finally made it up after creeping about an & inch at a time, before the tires would slip. God only knows what & kind of wear this produced on my transmission. You don’t say what the truck is, but does it have a limited slip differential (pozi-trac, sure-grip, etc)?  If not that would get you double the traction.  They can be added to many of the trucks out there. Hewlett Packard              (707) 794-4848 fax      (707) 538-3693 home 1212 Valley House Drive      http://web.sr.hp.com/~frankb/ Rohnert Park CA 94928-4999   KC6WUG, AMA, DoD #7566, NMLRA, I’m the NRA. U.S.A.              Dodge V8 Dakota, Yamaha IT175 XT350 YZF600R Seca 750

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Almost everybody I know has had the same problem with some combination of boats, ramps and tow vehicles. I have better traction on my jeep since I moved up on tire size. The tires are all weather radials. I can still spin all 4 tires if the ramp is mucky enough. Just having new tires will make a difference because the rubber will be softer and the thicker tread will be more compliant than on the older tires. My neighbor mounted a hitch ball on the front bumper of his 2WD truck which let him keep his rear tires high and dry. This can be particularly important at low tide, especially on ramps in estuaries that tend to silt up and/or grow moss. I carried a 20 foot heavy duty tow rope for several years untill the size of my tow vehicle caught up with my boat. I have also seen tongue extensions used for the same purpose. Many sailboaters use these because a keelboat has to be sent WAY back before it will float off the trailer. They either telescope out of the trailer tongue or are carried along side. Some of them even have their own wheels on them that will take much more abuse than a standard trailer jack wheel. My jeep has mushy rear springs and a short wheelbase, so I don’t run with much tongue weight. You can usually run much more tongue weight on a real truck like yours. 300 or 400 lbs of tongue weight, if you are not already running that much, could do a lot for your traction problems. Check with the truck manufacturer to see what they recommend.                                                 vaaler

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

Ron, Missed the original post… but here’s a technique I use to get my boat up the ramp that works pretty well.  Then I’ll add an emergency method that is nice to keep in reserve. As with you, I’ve found that getting a boat up a wet ramp can be no small task.  I have a 24 ft Grady White, pulled by a new (OHC 4.6L V8) Mercury Marquis (has towing package, no "de Sade" option).  I also use a GMC P/U, 2WD, also with towing option, also V8 automatic. The idea is to kinda simulate what anti-lock brakes do to help create an anti-slip traction control.  When you get ready to pull out, keep your foot on the brake, hard.  Push on the accelerator to get the engine RPMs up (and thus power), by spinning up the torque converter.  This is kinda like those brake starts you used to do from a traffic light with Dad’s old Galaxie 500.  (Oh sure, like you never did it?!?)  Now s-l-o-w-l-y lift pressure off of the brake until the vehicle and trailer just start to move.  Then KEEP YOUR BRAKE FOOT IN THIS POSITION UNTIL YOU GET MOVING WELL UP THE RAMP.  Modulate your speed with the brake foot.  Leave the accelerator foot pretty far or all the way down.  The brakes are helping to minimize wheel spin!  Taa Daa… Poor man’s traction control! YMMV, and I won’t vouch for any affects on the drivetrain (geez, you’re pulling a big ol’ boat anyhow, and the amount of time it takes to do this is probably 15 seconds or so…) An alternate, and by my vote emergency, method is to use the boat to help get you started.  This one can be a bit dicey.  It can work it you sink in your trailer enough (drive on type…).  As the car starts to pull out, put the boat in gear and gun it.  As you get going, kill the boat engine and tilt up.  Obviously, timing is key here.  Could bend a lower unit or prop; could ride up on the trailer into the tow vehicle…  I don’t recommend this technique except in an emergency.  It beats leaving the boat at the dock until the tide rises, or worse yet, launching the boat, trailer and tow vehicle….  Both methods can be combined. —Steve Steve Cutchen              If we always do what we’ve always done,

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Have your buddies jump in the back of the truck to give it wieght. I have stuck the floor mats in front of the tires once when I was alone and got stuck, but sand would be alot better. Longrigger

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writes: Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. [...]

Believe it or not, we have a fairly steep ramp here at our marina, and one of the simplest, although not safest ways to do it is to have someone stand on the trailer tongue and hang on to the boat while it’s being removed.  The extra weight on the tongue will most frequently permit lightweight conversion vans and passenger vehicles to make their way up without slippage.  Like I said, this isn’t the safest way, and we do it based on experience rather than have customers do it themselves.   $.02 more . . . — SELKIRK LIGHTHOUSE        Jim Walker, Keeper Lighthouse Marina         Voice:  315-298-6688 P.O. Box 228              Fax:    315-298-6685 ‘SELKIRK LIGHTHOUSE Home Page’           ‘http://www.maine.com:80/lights’ ‘WWW-VL: Lighthouses, Lightships & Lifesaving Stations’       ‘http://www.maine.com:80/lights/www_vl.htm’ ‘Salmon River/Lake Ontario Sportfishing Reports’       ‘http://www.maine.com:80/fish-ny’

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out. Ron Morgan

Ron – When you buy your tires, make sure you get a better traction rating.  Talk to the tire dealer about traction ratings and wet pavement.  He may help you out tremendously. (Softer tires may wear quicker.) Other solutions to consider can make a big difference :         1. Put a couple hundred pounds of sand bags or blocks in the                 very back of the truck.  Spinning can be caused by not                 enough weight on the rear wheels.         2. Adjust your boat on the trailer to increase the tongue weight                 of the trailer (not to an extreme).  With the boat further                 on the trailer, you will get more weight on the truck tires.         3. Next truck, get limited slip differential to use both back wheels instead of one. Good luck and may all your ramps be dry ones, Joe

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Question: what kind of tire tread design would provide the *most* friction? Knobby, off-road type, or a smoother "pavement" type? Remember, by the way, that this is extremely low-speed operation, just barely turning, in fact, so concepts like "hydroplaning" probably wouldn’t apply here. We’re talking about pulling a load up a wet concrete surface. How about it, you guys? I need to buy new tires for my truck in another couple of months, and I’d appreciate some input. In addition, I think it’d make an interesting discussion topic, as well.

There’s a lot coming into play. I find all terrains are significantly better than road tires.  I would assume mudders are even better.  My guess would be that the deep tread actually allows some of the edges of the tread to grip the ramp, cause there’s certainly lower area in contact.  Course that also means greater psi. Another factor is the softness of the rubber.  I would suspect that given two identical tires, the one with the lower tread life would be better. You could also get a bit wider tires.  I’ve also seen people with a bucket of sand they toss out to get a better grip.  No-one really complains about sand at a launch ramp. kevin

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Conditions: a standard half-ton truck, attempting to pull a 3,000 pound fishing boat up a fairly steep concrete launch ramp. The boat is on a 4-wheel trailer in good condition. The truck is, of course, rear-wheel drive, and has more than enough horsepower. Special consideration: the ramp is *wet*, due to water dripping off other boats that were just pulled out.

[...]         have you tried deflating the rear tyres a bit?  you’d get a larger         contact area.         andrew —            work phone/fax: 0131 668 8356, office: 0131 668 8357     institute for astronomy, royal observatory, blackford hill, edinburgh                      http://www.roe.ac.uk/ajcwww

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