Question:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband.

In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

In my case I paid for the setting and we used a stone she had (grandmothers, perhaps? I don’t recall and it doesn’t matter). I didn’t get the setting back; she never offered and I never asked because I didn’t want it. The setting was indeed a gift from me to her so I feel I have no claims on it. I would not have accepted it if she had offered it to me. My ring was a custom piece of jewelry we picked out together, though I paid for it so technically it wasn’t a gift from her. I gave it back to her without thinking twice about it. The fewer things I have in my life that remind me of her the better.

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..

EVERYTHING comes from da man, silly girl!    (If you don’t believe me, ask Andre or Ronnie44dd.   Whattas a matter with you, anyway)?    :-)

Response:

Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

If he is this bad, you can’t leave your children to his care, I know it is tempting to get revenge on him but think of your children, they will suffer more if you went to prison.  Get out, and get your children out.  There are organisations for abused wives, get one on your side and have them help you work this out. Mandy

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!! He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

The real abuse here is the abuse that you did to yourself by staying so long.  I hope you can learn to love yourself as much as you deserve. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Leaving ======= General guidelines for leaving a spouse in the US. So you decided to end the marriage and are leaving the house. When it comes time to leave, there are certain things you should do in a certain order, to avoid confrontations with or violence from the spouse. Here’s how to do it. Some rules to follow when doing all these things: – Be polite when working with your spouse – Be fair. Take only 1/2 of what you both own. – It may be a good idea to buy a cassette recorder and put it in your shirt pocket when talking with your spouse. This is not usually admissable in court but it will give you some leverage against the spouse if they are acting loony, violent, or unfair. If the judge asks "Do you have proof your spouse is a loony?" you can mention the tapes. – If you think the spouse will get violent, call the police. Hide around the corner and when they come to the house, then go to the house. Tell the police you need them to watch your spouse while you pack. – If the spouse attacks you (even if a wife attacks a man) MAKE A POLICE REPORT. If you don’t have proof (a police report), it will not help you. Finding an apartment Make your budget. Find out the net amount of your paycheck you bring home each month (after taxes, you can’t spend the taxes, can you?). Now subtract rent, car insurance, phone, utilities, gas, food, clothes, entertainment, and any other expenses you can think of. If you have money left over, you are doing good. If not, find places to trim expense, like don’t go to the movies, cancel cable/satellite, don’t go out to eat, eat in instead, buy a cheaper car. Now find a cheap apartment and sign a lease. Packing up – You will need to get your names off credit cards VERY quickly, that means moving out first. – Try to pack your most valuable things first, like cash, life insurance policies, stock policies, records for your bank accounts, IRAs, and other retirement accounts. Make sure you pack some pens, pencils and a notebook, you will need these later. If you have joint accounts, take the papers, copy them at the library or somewhere else, then return them to the house. – Try to pack when the other spouse is not there, like when they are not at work, or when they are shopping. Have a friend along with a video camera in case they come home early. Hide your car around the block (it could be seen down the street so don’t hide it there) or use a friends car that is not well known. Pack your stuff in the friend’s car then transfer it to your car in a place the spouse does not go. – Remember to pack a suit, you will need it for court proceedings. Assets ====== Decide what possessions to take with you. Generally the state will divide up all the assets so each spouse gets an equal share based on the current sale value of the asset (like if you sold it at a garage sale). The person who gets the house gets the value of the equity of the house, so they will get a lot less other things. Equity is the assessed value of the house minus the loan amount. It is NOT the value of the house plus the amount you spent to improve it. Generally the state allows you to keep what you had before the marriage, and allows you to keep gifts that were only to you, but this is still part of the "equal share" that the two of you get. Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. DON’T DO THE NEXT STEPS UNTIL YOU’RE ALL PACKED UP and moved out. Separating Finances The basic finance separation is in several groups: – Assets – Bank accounts – Credit cards/debit card – Retirement accounts – Loans/mortgages 1. Bank accounts First, get your own account, have the statements mailed to work or a trusted friend’s house. You don’t want these new statements discovered by the soon to be ex (STBX). When that is final, figure out what half of the cash assets would be (include all money markets, savings and checking accounts, not retirement or IRA accounts). Take half the cash and put it into your new account. Take your name off the accounts if possible. If you need their signature to do this, call a lawyer and find out if there’s another way to do this. 2. Credit Cards People often run up huge debts on credit cards in anger. First, try to take your name off all credit cards. I was the primary holder of a credit card, which meant I could put my wife’s name on it, and take it off. She couldn’t do anything. If you’re not the primary holder, AND you can’t get your name off a credit card, talk to a lawyer and find out what can be done. If you can’t do that, lower the limit on every credit card to the minimum. You should be able to do this alone, but then again the spouse could raise it up again by themselves. Talk to the CC company to find out who can do what. Try to freeze the cards so no one can use them and tell the CC company you’ve seen suspicious activity on the cards or you think you’re identity has been stolen. As a last resort, cancel the cards if necessary, but TELL THE SPOUSE. You will look bad to the judge if you don’t tell them. Send them a letter so you have paper proof that you told them. 3. Retirement accounts Just start by taking your IRA papers with you. You can sort it all out later in court. Let the other spouse keep their retirement account. 4. Loans/mortgages I don’t know how these are handled. But if you keep your name on the loan you ARE responsible for it, whether you are divorced, separated or not. Try to get your name off the mortgage, but NOT off the title to the house. This is so the other can’t default on the mortgage and ruin your credit. The Car ======= If you each have a car, take the one that you use the most. If you have one car between you, the working spouse will generally get the car. Should you buy a new one? Generally, no, unless you just purchased a brand new car in the past year. Calculate the net worth of the car will help you. Net worth=Value of the car (get it from Kelly Blue Book on the web) – any loan outstanding. Here’s an example. Car A: bought 2 years ago, valued at $15,000, loan left is $13,000, so net worth is $2000. Basically, you have $13,000 in loans to pay off. If you can’t afford it, get a used car worth less than $13,000, say around $7000. Try to make small payments. This will cause you to pay more interest over the life of the loan, but you really need the cash right now. Car B: bought 5 years ago, valued at $5000, no loan outstanding. Net worth is $5000. This is the best deal, since you have no car payment in this case. Car C: new car bought last year, valued at $24,000, loan left: $25,000, net worth=-$1000. Even though this has a net worth, you still have $25,000 left in loans to pay. This is a bad deal because if you sell the car you will still have to pay $1000 to cover the loan and you will not get any money back because it has a negative net worth. Your best bet is to get a $7000 car, pay the extra $1000. Insurance for the used car will be less than for the new car anyway. What will make you look good to the judge: – If you are fair to the other spouse. (Divide assets equally. Don’t take their favorite baseball card collection just to be mean.) – If you don’t hit them, threaten them or damage their property. – If you don’t show bizarre behavior (like damaging the other’s property) – If you keep the spouse informed, like when you cancel the credit cards. – Getting the kids out of a violent home. (You must have PROOF of this violence as a recording, or police report.) What will make you look bad: – Not going to counseling when the spouse does. – Being unfair. – Being angry in court. – If you have a serious illness, like cancer, it will really reduce your chances to get the kids. – If you have a serious illness, like depression, which is not being treated, you will have a lesser chance to get the kids. – Doing drugs. – Having a police record. – Being known as the "one who’s always screaming" by the neighbors. – Having boy/girlfriends before the divorce is final. – Trying to hide assets from the spouse. – Having an affair during the marriage. (Shows lack of commitment.) – Not being real involved with the kids. – If you don’t have a job. – If you have trouble holding a job. Abuse claims Filing a false abuse claim is now illegal in some states, and it is even enforced sometimes. Find out the status of false abuse claims, perhaps by calling the police department. — "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST

ME!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

Response:

"DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

IF your children want to stay in the house regardless of the fact that he is mean to you then something is wrong. IF you want to stay in the house regardless of what HE is doing to YOU then there is something VERY WRONG!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these! SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

Huh?  How can you even think this about the man you just previously described? I think *you* would be abusive by letting him near your kids. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe he is abusing his children by not being here

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

Response:

I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!!  He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

I can not understand why you take all that shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Once again, here’s the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "abuse": Main Entry: abuse      Pronunciation: &-’by

Question:

Hi, I haven’t received my flies yet Paul EARTHLINK SUCK

You were expecting the flies by e-mail?  I doubt it’s Earthlink’s problem. BTW – current plan is to be in NY Friday after all…  Fingers crossed and gear already in the car.

Response:

I haven’t received my flies yet

Mine parcel arrived today.  I spent quite some time going over all of the flies.  The flies already mentioned, as well as the rest, are indeed nice flies.  One in particular really jumped out at me.  The woven soft hackle Isonychia nymph tied by Glenn Tippy really caught my eye.  I guess I kind of have a fascination with woven bodied flies but have limited myself to larger patterns in the past.  I keep fly swap flies for examples in my own endeavors and I plan on replicating this one after the conclave when I have some time to get out and shop for the materials.  I am also thinking about some modifications for different species, etc.  Oustanding tie Glenn and thanks for the inspiration. — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

Got home from vacation in NH today and found the package on top of the inevitable pile of junk mail.  Made taking the kayaks and canoe off the car, and all the other crap of unpacking, fly. Thanks to all. Glenn Tippy GKT

Response:

Joe, I also received my flies in great shape a couple of weeks ago.  Sorry for the long delay in letting you know.  I have been busy at work and in fishing so I have been away from the group for the last two weeks.  Thanks guys for the great ties!  I hope mine met with everyone’s expectations if not let me know and I will tie you a better one and send it off to you. Later Ed Bleck AKA Didymus

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jay Peck is a friend of mine, a non – roffian, and  I invited him to join the swap.  He is from the Rochester area, and works as a guide at a fly shop there.  You must be, too, as is evidenced by your "Caledonia scud", no doubt intended for Spring Creek. Peter Collin Got the package of flies yesterday.  Looked them all over and everybody did a great job!  I am going fishing next week for 4 days and will be using them.  I am definitely going to try out that "Mink Coat" where I know it should work. Great job everybody Rob Hey Joe- Flies received safe and sound.  Good job.  Kudos to the swapmeister, and the flies are great as well. Who is Jay Peck, by the way (tied a burnt wing mayfly)?  Is he from the Rochester area? Scott Aha!  It is the same Jay– a talented guy.  I know he’s a fine tyer, and pretty well represented in pattern books dedicated to the Northeast.  He works out of Coleman’s (of Tony Germuga fame )  He’s a very talented guide and salmon and steelhead fisherman.  I think Rick Kustich also uses some of his photographs in his books. Peter–where do you fish?  Lets get together sometime when you’re in the area.  You’re dead-on about my poor excuse for a scud.  I would have tied them better if I knew Jay was going to see it!!  My understanding is that it was designed to hide the lead for way back when Spring Creek was no-lead. Another historical fly from that era was the "Nickel Nymph", which was tied on a huge hook.  I think that pattern called for Condor!!  I would love to get my hands on one of those flies. Scott

Response:

How did you get those? Those were extra flies I tied for the swap meister. I put them in an envelope that said swap meister on the front.

I’m back at the hotel & have only had one beer so far, so here’s the simple explanation:   I had everybody tie 25 flies so they would get one of their own back in the fly swap set.   That way, I didn’t have to keep track of who’s set was who’s.   However, a few guys miscounted & only sent 24.   For those guys, I put their name on the plastic cup, & skipped them when sorting their respective sets of flies.  They didn’t get one of their own, but everybody else did.   Simple so far, eh?  (If anyone didn’t get one of their own flies in the swap, that’s why.) Well, yours (Dave) was one of the first sets I sorted, & because you labelled those two little envelopes, I mentally assigned the first two cups to Paul Goodwin (photos) & myself (swapmeister).   I put the correct envelopes into the correct cups.   Then I came across the first set of 24 (instead of 25) & forgetting what I’d done earlier, I must have taped Peter’s name on the second cup since he was the first "swapper-specific" set.   Later on, to my surprise, it turned out that I too had miscounted (only 24) & had to put my name on a cup to skip as well.   Unfortunately, it was not the same cup I’d put your "Swapmeister" envelope in. Told you it was a simple explanation.  :-) Joe F. DDFS alum.

Response:

Would you like them back?  I’d hate to cheat the swapmeister!  Or is this like the ball games, where you get to keep the ones that go into the stands? Pete

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, both were in the little manila envelope that said "swapmeister". But I didn’t know Joe was doing three patterns.  Maybe they were strays that somehow fell into the pile.  I’ll consider them a bonus. Oops.   I didn’t tie those (& from my hotel room here I can’t remember who did), but that swapper identified one envelope for the photos & one for me personally.   In my haste, I screwed up & sent that one to you (I remember how, but it’s too complicated before breakfast <g).  I pretty much packed the boxes, mailed ‘em, & headed out of town, so I wouldn’t have realized my mistake for a week or so.   If that’s my only screw up, I’ll be happy. Joe F. DDFSwapmeister (who figured out the internet connection in his hotel room)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jay Peck is a friend of mine, a non – roffian, and  I invited him to join the swap.  He is from the Rochester area, and works as a guide at a fly shop there.  You must be, too, as is evidenced by your "Caledonia scud", no doubt intended for Spring Creek. Peter Collin Got the package of flies yesterday.  Looked them all over and everybody did a great job!  I am going fishing next week for 4 days and will be using them.  I am definitely going to try out that "Mink Coat" where I know it should work. Great job everybody Rob Hey Joe- Flies received safe and sound.  Good job.  Kudos to the swapmeister, and the flies are great as well. Who is Jay Peck, by the way (tied a burnt wing mayfly)?  Is he from the Rochester area? Scott

Aha!  It is the same Jay– a talented guy.  I know he’s a fine tyer, and pretty well represented in pattern books dedicated to the Northeast.  He works out of Coleman’s (of Tony Germuga fame )  He’s a very talented guide and salmon and steelhead fisherman.  I think Rick Kustich also uses some of his photographs in his books. Peter–where do you fish?  Lets get together sometime when you’re in the area.  You’re dead-on about my poor excuse for a scud.  I would have tied them better if I knew Jay was going to see it!!  My understanding is that it was designed to hide the lead for way back when Spring Creek was no-lead.   Another historical fly from that era was the "Nickel Nymph", which was tied on a huge hook.  I think that pattern called for Condor!!  I would love to get my hands on one of those flies. Scott

Response:

Jay Peck is a friend of mine, a non – roffian, and  I invited him to join the swap.  He is from the Rochester area, and works as a guide at a fly shop there.  You must be, too, as is evidenced by your "Caledonia scud", no doubt intended for Spring Creek. Peter Collin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got the package of flies yesterday.  Looked them all over and everybody did a great job!  I am going fishing next week for 4 days and will be using them.  I am definitely going to try out that "Mink Coat" where I know it should work. Great job everybody Rob Hey Joe- Flies received safe and sound.  Good job.  Kudos to the swapmeister, and the flies are great as well. Who is Jay Peck, by the way (tied a burnt wing mayfly)?  Is he from the Rochester area? Scott

Response:

Got the package of flies yesterday.  Looked them all over and everybody did a great job!  I am going fishing next week for 4 days and will be using them.  I am definitely going to try out that "Mink Coat" where I know it should work. Great job everybody Rob

Hey Joe- Flies received safe and sound.  Good job.  Kudos to the swapmeister, and the flies are great as well. Who is Jay Peck, by the way (tied a burnt wing mayfly)?  Is he from the Rochester area? Scott

Response:

How did you get those? Those were extra flies I tied for the swap meister. I put them in an envelope that said swap meister on the front. Any ways the red one is an electric leach and the streamer is called cutt bait. The streamer is actually a saltwater pattern I use for sea run cutts and salmon but I figure there are green back minnows anywhere in the world. Later Dave —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There were two flies I go with no tag on them.  One was a red woolybuggery sort of  thing and the other was a chartreuse streamer.  Can anybody claim these? Peter Collin

Response:

Well, both were in the little manila envelope that said "swapmeister". But I didn’t know Joe was doing three patterns.  Maybe they were strays that somehow fell into the pile.  I’ll consider them a bonus.

Oops.   I didn’t tie those (& from my hotel room here I can’t remember who did), but that swapper identified one envelope for the photos & one for me personally.   In my haste, I screwed up & sent that one to you (I remember how, but it’s too complicated before breakfast <g).  I pretty much packed the boxes, mailed ‘em, & headed out of town, so I wouldn’t have realized my mistake for a week or so.   If that’s my only screw up, I’ll be happy. Joe F. DDFSwapmeister (who figured out the internet connection in his hotel room)

Response:

Well, both were in the little manila envelope that said "swapmeister".  But I didn’t know Joe was doing three patterns.  Maybe they were strays that somehow fell into the pile.  I’ll consider them a bonus. Peter Collin

Response:

Got the package of flies yesterday.  Looked them all over and everybody did a great job!  I am going fishing next week for 4 days and will be using them.  I am definitely going to try out that "Mink Coat" where I know it should work. Great job everybody Rob

Response:

I think my favorite was the Madame X.  It was tied very expertly, and is the kind of floating attractor that works well on my local streams. Peter Collin

Response:

!! Definitely an inspiration to improve upon my skills for the next swap to come. tight lines to all…… Thom Adams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Got the package of flies yesterday.  Looked them all over and everybody did a great job!  I am going fishing next week for 4 days and will be using them.  I am definitely going to try out that "Mink Coat" where I know it should work. Great job everybody Rob

Response:

There were two flies I go with no tag on them.  One was a red woolybuggery sort of  thing and the other was a chartreuse streamer.  Can anybody claim these? Peter Collin

Response:

There were two flies I go with no tag on them.  One was a red woolybuggery sort of  thing and the other was a chartreuse streamer.  Can anybody claim these?

Hmmm, I don’t see those in my collection, so I’ll take a guess.  Since there’s no red anything in my box it might be mine.  Is it a pinkish orange foam body with a white comparadun style wing and a bushy brown tail?  If so, it’s my Orange Woof bluegill fly (some of them had green rubber legs, some didn’t).  The streamer might be Big Dale’s Foam Spider.  Does it have rubber legs?

Response:

I could be wrong, but I have some of Big D’s foam spiders and I don’t believe they would be considered streamers.  However, he could very well have tied a different type of foam spider pattern than I have, I guess? Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There were two flies I go with no tag on them.  One was a red woolybuggery sort of  thing and the other was a chartreuse streamer.  Can anybody claim these? Hmmm, I don’t see those in my collection, so I’ll take a guess.  Since there’s no red anything in my box it might be mine.  Is it a pinkish orange foam body with a white comparadun style wing and a bushy brown tail?  If so, it’s my Orange Woof bluegill fly (some of them had green rubber legs, some didn’t).  The streamer might be Big Dale’s Foam Spider.  Does it have rubber legs?

Response:

I could be wrong, but I have some of Big D’s foam spiders and I don’t believe they would be considered streamers.  However, he could very well have tied a different type of foam spider pattern than I have, I guess? Op

I wouldn’t call it a streamer but it has a marabou tail and is the right color.  Nothing else really looks like a streamer except for Joe’s Madame X (bullethead deer hair) and Wayne’s Mink Coat. I’m hoping we can get Paul Goodwin to do pics next week which will end all speculation.  It’s in your court Paul, the database is set up. –Stan

Response:

Hi, I haven’t received my flies yet Paul EARTHLINK SUCK

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I could be wrong, but I have some of Big D’s foam spiders and I don’t believe they would be considered streamers.  However, he could very well have tied a different type of foam spider pattern than I have, I guess? Op I wouldn’t call it a streamer but it has a marabou tail and is the right color.  Nothing else really looks like a streamer except for Joe’s Madame X (bullethead deer hair) and Wayne’s Mink Coat. I’m hoping we can get Paul Goodwin to do pics next week which will end all speculation.  It’s in your court Paul, the database is set up. –Stan

Response:

Question:

Yeah. The best thing to do is ignore ‘em. I sometimes rise to the bait, but I feel chagrined every time I do. Problem is, it stops being a sport when the participants become polarized over anything, whether it’s bamboo or race relations.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away? 1. It’s a little like fishing. You don’t have to try to catch everyone you see. You don’t have to keep all you catch. You can just ignore the little guys. <<2. Gehrke has obviously changed his address since I last added him to my kill file. Would someone please send me an email with any aliases he may currently be using so I can prevent his correspondence from reaching me? 2. Now we also have Muskie to deal with.

Response:

Lennie, if you’re at all related to the Richardson Fly Box, you might want to consider moving to another state. Let us know where you’re planning to fish and your general locale–there are for better or worse quite a few other ROFF regulars who live in NC.

I’m not familiar with the Richardson Fly Box, but we could be related. My father’s family is centered in Marion, SC and I’m told I have relatives near Charlotte. I’m a reasonably fair fly dresser, but I can scarcely meet my own demand let alone do it commercially. Besides, I tie flies to catch fish, not to look purty. –Steve (typing this from Cary, NC; headed to Watauga county tomorrow morning) P.S. and no I won’t be doing any fishing this time

Maybe if you don’t get to fish you can get in some skiing.

Response:

Hi All, It’s been a while since I hung out here, like since late June. I have a couple of questions: 1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away?

Yeah, just post more trips reports like you did for your Montana trip. I enjoyed the pix. Willi

Response:

Lennie, were you speaking of the Upper Creek off of Mt. Mitchell or the Upper Creek off 181 Hwy in Burke County?  I fish the Burke County Upper. Don’t recall the 10" ice.  This is a great stream. — Opie  –Psychotic Psychic to the recently deceased–

Response:

The one in Burke County. It was OK coming in from the Johns River side, but we went out the road that takes you to Wilson Creek and that’s the one that was iced over. It was slick. Drove out in 4 wheel low  the whole way. It was beautiful, but slicker than fresh snot on a doorknob.

Response:

I’m in Charlotte. I was thinking about heading over toward the delayed harvest area of the Tuckaseegee, but I love all the areas you’ve mentioned above. It’s starting to look like the weather could keep us home. I love to fish in the snow and I don’t mind driving in it if I’m the only car on I-40 between Statesville and the Tennessee line. I drove up to Upper Creek January of this year and it was 10" deep in hard ice, not snow. Looked like a mini-glacier. What part of Wilson Creek do you like to fish this time of year? LR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where are you located Lennie?  I’m in Lenoir and plan to fish this weekend on Upper Creek, or Lost Cove, or Wilson Creek or somewhere. — Opie  –Planning for the Past– I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back. Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa/New Year to all, Lennie Richardson (Not "Mr. R.", not ashamed of my name)

Response:

I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back.

Lennie, if you’re at all related to the Richardson Fly Box, you might want to consider moving to another state. Let us know where you’re planning to fish and your general locale–there are for better or worse quite a few other ROFF regulars who live in NC. –Steve (typing this from Cary, NC; headed to Watauga county tomorrow morning) P.S. and no I won’t be doing any fishing this time

Response:

<<1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away? 1. It’s a little like fishing. You don’t have to try to catch everyone you see. You don’t have to keep all you catch. You can just ignore the little guys. <<2. Gehrke has obviously changed his address since I last added him to my kill file. Would someone please send me an email with any aliases he may currently be using so I can prevent his correspondence from reaching me? 2. Now we also have Muskie to deal with.

Response:

Where are you located Lennie?  I’m in Lenoir and plan to fish this weekend on Upper Creek, or Lost Cove, or Wilson Creek or somewhere. — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back. Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa/New Year to all, Lennie Richardson (Not "Mr. R.", not ashamed of my name)

Response:

Hi All, It’s been a while since I hung out here, like since late June. I have a couple of questions: 1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away? 2. Gehrke has obviously changed his address since I last added him to my kill file. Would someone please send me an email with any aliases he may currently be using so I can prevent his correspondence from reaching me? I use his product and it works just fine for me. As a matter of fact, I’ve got a bottle I bought in 1990 which I’ve only half used up. It’s his biased blather that I don’t care for. I still find many stimulating and useful posts in this group, so I have no plans to give up on it just yet. Thanks to all of you (you know who you are) that make this a worthwhile NG. BTW, I’ve been to Montana since the last time I visited this group, so if anybody would like to see a few pretty fish pictures, please take a look at http://home.carolina.rr.com/ellarrandfamily/photo.htm. I had the good fortune to meet some super fishermen, guides, and flyshop folk while I was there, but I’m not going to turn my post into a commercial for them. I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back. Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa/New Year to all, Lennie Richardson (Not "Mr. R.", not ashamed of my name)

Response:

Question:

Hey Paul.  Finally took your advice and bought a kayak.  I think perhaps they should be outlawed.  You can get too close to tailing reds and it makes them too easy to catch. And, you can onto real muddy flats in seconds.  Before it took me forever in snowshoes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

Response:

….spat on by a squirrel….

Thanks Herman, I just spewed a nice Cabernet all over the keyboard…….hm…….come to think of it, that’s not all that funny after all….been there.

Response:

and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

        what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?         hehehehehehe…         wayno

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…    what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?    hehehehehehe…

Wondered if you’d catch that (but I was betting you would<g). It’s for the gator’s dog to play with while you and the gator discuss dance steps – shufflin’ like a gator as it were. — Charlie…

Response:

and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…         what is this?  a very short fill in the blank nature exam?         hehehehehehe…         wayno

speakin’ of gatahs…. go gatahs! (hehehehehhe..) obroff: watermelon pond, located about 20 miles west of g’ville, has it’s name due to the farmland dedicated to growing melons on the rolling hills which surround this placid body of water. the melon crop provides the local farmers with some hard earned money (try pickin and loading watermelons in a hot Florida sun someday) and the fertilizer eventually makes its way to the lake which promotes good aquatic flora, which in turn promotes good aquatic fauna, which in turn attracts the likes of me. as is the case with most lakes located in the karst topographical zone of north central Florida, it is for the most part a hard packed white sand bottom lake which makes it ideal for wading in pursuit of largemouths. as is the case of most Florida lakes, if not all, it has its fair share of reptillean critters, and i ain’t speaking of crackers. amidst the pads and maidencane is where the big bass lay, waiting for the misguided bluegill, shiner, frog, bird, or snake to meander by. one day, while i was retrieving my streamer i snagged some hydrilla. i started stripping it in real fast and this now foot long plus streamer is streaking across the surface. a bass decides it must be a snake and hooks hisself on this mess. as i was in mid-strip, the bass is skimming towards me on the surface. one second i was fishing a streamer, the next i was fishing a big weedy streamer, the following i was fishing an even larger fishy streamer, and the next second i was hooked into about a 5 foot gatah. well, he had my "streamer" in his mouth anyway. cool. way cool. shit. i’m standing in about three feet of water and i’m playing a gator about 30 feet away from me. he does a roll and heads under water. the line is being pulled off my reel so at least he’s heading away, unless of course he’s making a big circle, which by the way he was. he surfaced with much aplomb about 10 feet from me with that big ole silly gatah grin only broken by my dead bass hanging out the side of his mouth like a cherished stogie. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. i still feel like i was a ‘nole stunt man in one of weismuller’s tarzan zanies wrasslin a gator underwater. the fly, a flashy buggah streamer, dubbed a "wallymelon" by my fishing companion, is still in my possession. this is how i earned the moniker…. –wally gatah

Response:

– shufflin’ like a gator as it were. — Charlie…

        oh, you mean that little number waldo does while explaining his late evening whereabouts to the lovely marie?  now i understand. wayno (a beach boogie man)

Response:

…. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. …

Great story. Did you live ? — Ken Fortenberry- right leg’s getting long, pull the left next time

Response:

Great story. Did you live ?

only in spirit(s)….. oh yeah, some, not all mind you, of that tale is fictional wayno, you drsob. you fishin hazel this week? –wally gatah

Response:

…. with a swish of his tail he’s on me. surreal moments live forever. … Great story. Did you live ? —

Who cares – Did it take you into the backing? Peter

Response:

Great story. Did you live ? only in spirit(s)….. oh yeah, some, not all mind you, of that tale is fictional wayno, you drsob. you fishin hazel this week? –wally gatah

        yessiree bob, although the party has been reduced to just me and ol dash riprock.  why don’t you come up and see us sometime.         no shit, we would love to have you.  will be in a posh cabin from tuesday night until saturday morning. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles.

That’s why you should always shuffle your feet to scare the rays… and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

Response:

Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles. Now you’ve done it: tonight I’ll combine the two and dream about bellyboating, hooking a big alligator in the nostrils, paddling back to see a snake dangling from the very tree I’m aiming for. Herman Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water.

Yeah, but a lot of the ex-colonies have some interesting critters in the water<g. I don’t much care for gators, but bonefish flats are covered with rays. — Charlie…

Response:

And that’s why one must always wear leaded wading boots when bonefishin’. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water. Yeah, but a lot of the ex-colonies have some interesting critters in the water<g. I don’t much care for gators, but bonefish flats are covered with rays. — Charlie…

Response:

Yeah, right… scare the rays.. I’m Dutch, remember? The worst thing that can happen over here  while fishing, naturewise that is, is being spat on by a squirrel. Being circled by stingrays is already way out of that league. Herman, who wouldn’t put a toe in that water. Food for nightmares.. A friend of mine fished the coastal waters around Florida. Pictures of alligators. BIG stingrays all around your ankles. That’s why you should always shuffle your feet to scare the rays… and carry a small dog for the gator’s. — Charlie…

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Fishing for bass with a small popper I cast to the edge of a stand of cat tails. I got a little too close and thought I had snagged one of the reeds. When everything exploded I thought I had a giant bass. Then I saw the black tubular shape and realized what I had snagged. I was in a kick boat and began kciking toward a shore line (double time) as I stripped out line. In just a few seconds I was to the backing and still stripping. Standing on dry land I began to retrieve line to find that the snake had wrapped around a stump and I was able to break it off. I didn’t care to land it and wasn’t a bit curious about what kind of snake it was.

Response:

Question:

I am planning a trip to fish some private section of Spruce Creek, PA in April.  Since I’m new to this area, I don’t know what to expect…conditions, hatches, etc.  Any info would be appreciated. Hal Goodrich

Response:

I am planning a trip to fish some private section of Spruce Creek, PA in April.  Since I’m new to this area, I don’t know what to expect…conditions, hatches, etc.  Any info would be appreciated. Hal Goodrich

I think that Doug Swisher filmed some of his 3M videos on Spruce Creek. If you could rent or buy these videos they will give you some insight. Fly Fishing Strategies and Advanced Fly Fishing Strategies are the titles. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Question:

The URL you seek is: http://www.seakayaker.com/gaddis/gadabout.htm

Response:

The URL you seek is: http://www.seakayaker.com/gaddis/gadabout.htm

Hi Dave I bookmarked the site. Thanks for taking the time to post the information. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

I’ve been away a week fishing the banks of Argentina for trout. What a blast. My friend told me someone posted info about a Gadabout Gaddis homepage, a hero to me in my childhood. Can anyone post the url here! Much Appreciated Vince

Response:

My friend told me someone posted info about a Gadabout Gaddis homepage, a hero to me in my childhood.

 Truly fun to watch, but you know…we never really got a look at the fly!….any guesses as to what he had on..?…worms…nightcrawlers.., cheese!….;-) Steve D.

Response:

Question:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon.   It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go?

I can make it from McMinnville to Maupin in less than three hours, less from portland. IMHO it is worth the drive, but it does make it a long day. There are some nice small streams out here in Yamhill County. They hold mostly small wild cutthroat and hatchery rainbow. They also get very low in summer and I usually stop fishing them by mid June. I would stay away from the main Yamhill River, unless you are into warmwater fish and don’t mind raw sewage. The upper forks of the Yamhill have small cutthroat and can be fun but nothing great. Tight Lines, Jay Whitworth

Response:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon. It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go? — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Seriously, people.  Hit the coastal streams.  The searun cutthroat are in and many streams have summer steelhead as a bonus.  But seriously, my son and I target the cutthroat.  They are the best fly rising fish in the state–yes we fish on top–and it is not a 3 hour drive.   And if the fish are not cooperating–there is the beach, maybe the jetties, and a whole smorgasbord of good cafes and restaurants. Paul

Response:

The Deschutes is not 3 hours from Portland. It usually takes me less than two hours to get to Maupin where there is aproximately 25-30 miles of outstanding bank fishing for steelhead and Trout. (And plenty of whitefish if you are nymphing.)

Response:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon. It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go? — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Busy Portlanders aren’t real fisherpeople.  Real fisherpeople go to the …… Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

Response:

: Busy Portlanders aren’t real fisherpeople.  Real fisherpeople go to …. Anywhere in Idaho? (Except Leitheiser… he bailed out.  Don’t really blame him, it’s tough to come back to Oregon waters after getting spoiled by all those big Cutts.) — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I’ll be in the Portland, OR area the end of June – beginnig of July.  I’d appreciate suggestions on places to fish for 2 days (Sat and Sun).  I’ll have a car and don’t have to return to Portland Sat nite.. Thanks in advance for your help. Martin

Response:

I’ll be in the Portland, OR area the end of June – beginnig of July.  I’d appreciate suggestions on places to fish for 2 days (Sat and Sun).  I’ll have a car and don’t have to return to Portland Sat nite.. Thanks in advance for your help. Martin You may want to try the coastal streams–a lot closer than the Deschutes

and the searun cutthroats are the most wonderful fly rod fish you can find.  A friend of mine is a guide.  If you want to, call Glenn Young at (503) 642-4570. A secret–these fish are active surface takers!!!!! Let me know if you go and how you do. Paul

Response:

The Deschutes River – where else.  Call Kaufmann’s Streamborn in Portland for information on the Deschutes and guides (if you want or need one).

Response:

Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon.   It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.  What about smaller streams on the slopes of Mt Hood or an hour or so west of Portland near Vernonia/Mist or down in Yamhill County (seem to remember some creeks in there near McMinnville – Yamhill River?)?  Anyway, if you consider total travel time, a 3-hour drive is fairly long way to go for an hour or two of fishing.  Where do busy Portlanders REALLY go? — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

Response:

writes: Wait a minute!  The Deschutes River is NOT near Portland, Oregon.   It’s gotta be a 3-4 hour drive, at least.  And it’s not that easy to fish from shore.

Whoa!  The Deschutes is about 100 miles from Portland via very good freeways.  This makes it about an hour and a half to an hour and three quarters travel time.  As for fishing from shore, you can’t legally fish from a boat unless you are disabled amd have the proper permits.  I’ll agree that you do have to wade it to flyfish, but that’s true of most any stream!

Response:

Question:

writes: Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  

I think most people consider the downstream mend as a tension technique, but it doesn’t have to be.  One of the reasons to make a downstream mend to help your drift is to throw an elbow into the line which will make it easier to shake out extra line for a downstream drift without moving the fly. You can use the elbow for the extra surface tension to pull against to feed line as long as you don’t pull too hard against it.  Sort of like this:                                                                                                                                                            / Also, sometimes you need to make a downstream mend because the water closer to you has slowed down in relation to the fly and if you don’t mend it will cause tension and thus drag.  One of the things to keep in mind when you’re having a tough time with a drift is that if mending in one direction doesn’t work, try mending it the other.  And remember it may not always be in your best interest to mend the entire line but rather only specific sections of it.                                 Hope this helps,                                        Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

The  down and across drift applys to wet fly and streamer fishing. You want to apply a swimming motion to the fly and present it at a sideway profile to the fish. When you use this method strip the fly back to you at the end of the drift and it looks like a bait fish swimming upstream.  The method you describe about casting upstream and mending line is a nymphing method. Totally different. This is called a Lisenering lift. Where you cast upstream, lifting the rod tip as the fly approaches you to remove the slack and then lowering the rod tip as the fly passes your position. All the while keeping your rod tip in position with the fly through out the drift. Some of the newer guys like to call this high stick nymphing. Call it what you like it is a effective way to nymph. I could go into more detail, but I think you get the picture.                                          Mark Heskett

Response:

Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  If you do the down stream thing you have to wobble the rod to get more line out or mend a lot of line downstream putting you at a greater distance from your fly yet this seems to be a common way to fish everything from open streams to pocketwater. Am I missing something?

Response:

Down and across is an extremely effective method of presenting a dry or emerger to selective fish in flat water….the ONLY successful method in many Spring Creek situations…                         Mike in PDX                "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                                            Tom McGuane

Response:

: Down and across is an extremely effective method of presenting a dry or : emerger to selective fish in flat water….the ONLY successful method : in many Spring Creek situations… Besides this good advice, why not try and cover the entire "clock" from each position?  Up and across, followed by down and across, both sides, then move down or upstream. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  If you do the down stream thing you have to wobble the rod to get more line out or mend a lot of line downstream putting you at a greater distance from your fly yet this seems to be a common way to fish everything from open streams to pocketwater. Am I missing something?

Hi, Contrary to popular belief, a drag-free drift is not always the most effective presentation. Fishing for steelhead, salmon, shad, stripers, (and yes, even trout), it is often more effective to fish the fly with movement against the current. Of course, one can fish down-and-across, drag-free, which offers the great advantage of showing the fly before the leader. I hope this helps,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, Ca.   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do people routinely use this technique?  It seems to me that you can just about always get further downstream and quarter upstream, mend upstream and get an easier dragfree drift.  If you do the down stream thing you have to wobble the rod to get more line out or mend a lot of line downstream putting you at a greater distance from your fly yet this seems to be a common way to fish everything from open streams to pocketwater. Am I missing something? Hi, Contrary to popular belief, a drag-free drift is not always the most effective presentation. Fishing for steelhead, salmon, shad, stripers, (and yes, even trout), it is often more effective to fish the fly with movement against the current. Of course, one can fish down-and-across, drag-free, which offers the great advantage of showing the fly before the leader. I hope this helps,   Alan.

     Quartering downstream is a tight line technique, and probably about the oldest technique for fly fishing there is.  Typically used for wet fly and streamer fishing, casting across the current allows the fly to sink.  At the end of the drift, the fly swings in the current (on a tight line) and rises through the water profile until the fly is hanging in the current downstream of you.  To get more depth before the swing, you can make your cast straight across or quartering upstream.   Most hits seem to come as the fly swings.  This can be an effective technique for nymph fishing as well.  (Quartering downstream minimizes "drift" time and maximizes the "swing" time for each cast). John

Response:

Hi John, Of course, one can fish down-and-across, drag-free, which offers the great advantage of showing the fly before the leader. Quartering downstream is a tight line technique, and probably about the oldest technique for fly fishing there is.

The drag-free downstream technique I was referring to is the now common practice on spring creeks of casting downstrream and feeding line at a rate slightly faster than the current. This can be a deadly method on finicky fish that have been heavily fished over. Best wishes,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, Ca.   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services    Misha,    Personally, I would bag the idea of using clip swivels at all.  From    personal experience, they tend to sink dry flys and they also are    difficult to get your fly onto (which if you’re using a dry will almost    certainly cause you to crush the hackles, tail, etc.). How ’bout pre-tying on the tippet, with a loop at the end, for a loop-to-loop -type of connection? — Matt Meola NRA Life, Libertarian, Militiaman Gun control means using two hands. Live free or die!

Matt, A loop-to-loop connection between the tippet and the next section of the leader might not allow the fly to turn over as easily (compared with, say a surgeons or barrel knot).  Also, it would seem to be a little too bulky for my taste, which could possibly put down some fish. Also, I have my doubts concerning the practicality of carrying around a hundred or so flys with tippets already attached (I’m implying that this was what you were getting at previously.  I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your posting.). Best Regards, Jim Davis Philadelphia, PA Temple University

Response:

It gets rather tiring when I have to switch Flies and have to continue retying different Flies onto my line.. I use #14 and was wondering are their any types of Clip Swiviles out there for quick Fly changing..

Clips or swivels are too heavy and are not made in sizes small enough for the flies needed sometimes by trout. The simplest solution is to learn the turle knot, which is easy (can almost be tied blindfold or at night) and does not mash hackles. —  |          Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Rd., Carlsbad         |  |        Springs, Ont., Canada K0A 1K0; tel: (613) 822-0734       |  |  "What I’ve always liked about science is its independence from |  |  authority"–Ontario Science Centre (name on file) 10 July 1981 |

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Temple University, Academic Computer Services    Misha,    Personally, I would bag the idea of using clip swivels at all.  From    personal experience, they tend to sink dry flys and they also are    difficult to get your fly onto (which if you’re using a dry will almost    certainly cause you to crush the hackles, tail, etc.). How ’bout pre-tying on the tippet, with a loop at the end, for a loop-to-loop -type of connection? — Matt Meola NRA Life, Libertarian, Militiaman Gun control means using two hands. Live free or die!

Response:

It gets rather tiring when I have to switch Flies and have to continue retying different Flies onto my line.. I use #14 and was wondering are their any types of Clip Swiviles out there for quick Fly changing.. Misha

Response:

It gets rather tiring when I have to switch Flies and have to continue retying different Flies onto my line.. I use #14 and was wondering are their any types of Clip Swiviles out there for quick Fly changing.. Misha

Misha, Personally, I would bag the idea of using clip swivels at all.  From personal experience, they tend to sink dry flys and they also are difficult to get your fly onto (which if you’re using a dry will almost certainly cause you to crush the hackles, tail, etc.). Best Regards, Jim Davis Philadelphia, PA Temple University

Response:

Question:

: I live in Downriver Detroit and love to travel to No. Mich. to fly fish : for trout.  Unfortunately, it appears my travel budget will be seriously : curtailed this summer.  Does anyone out there know of good streams or : lakes in the metro area that are wader-accessible?  Fish species are : unimportant.  Also, any guidance on flies for warmwater species will be : appreciated.   You live in one of the most lake-besotted states in the union! There are *scores* of good fishing lakes in your neighborhood. Go to a large bookstore or DNR office and get a copy of the book "Fishing in Michigan". It lists scores of lakes with details of access, location, species and so forth. For warmwater flies, think pink and green. I have caught tons of panfish on a variety of nymphs, wooly buggers and even tiny 1/32 oz pink jigs. Some folks tie a bit of hackle to these so it looks more like flyfishing My favorite and one of my most successful for ‘gills and crappie has been a sort of scud tied as follows: #12-14 3906 thread: tan body: light beige dubbing shell: three pieces of flashabou- one green and two iridescent rib: copper wire- about #36. Tie in the wire and flashabou strands. Dub on body. Pull flashabou forwards and tie off. Rib with wire and tie off. For bass, I like big deer hair mice and a sort of worm tied from a zonker strip (about 3-4" long) and some maribou on a #2 hook. –mike

Response:

Paint Creek in Rochester. The Huron River out by Proud Lake Rec Area (this is already open, flys only- and when ya get done, you can go XC skiing- supposed to snow 2 night…doncha jus love Mich?…).

Response:

I live in Downriver Detroit and love to travel to No. Mich. to fly fish for trout.  Unfortunately, it appears my travel budget will be seriously curtailed this summer.  Does anyone out there know of good streams or lakes in the metro area that are wader-accessible?  Fish species are unimportant.  Also, any guidance on flies for warmwater species will be appreciated.   Paul Wise

Response: