Question:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

Hey, Fishreeler, I’ll see you at Penns.  I will show you a lovely stretch of water called Frank’s Pool, found by your friend Frank Reid.  Of course, Peter Charles and I cleaned out the pool before Frank could land a fish, but that’s another story.  And, much to the disgust of other roffians, I’ll make a nympher out of you.  <g Dave

Response:

     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World.

Believe it or not, that is sometimes the exact perspective needed.   Your early experiences and lessons learned can be valuable advice to another just staring out.   Not everybody here is an expert, nor is everyone who comes through the door.   Even the jaded and experienced will take joy in your progress.   Post what you know, what you learn, what you experience.   It’s as valuable and welcome here as any of the esoteric baloney the experts post. Welcome to the nuthouse. Joe F.

Response:

fishreeler welcome! Look, as long as you avoid words like "meniscus" and the "the Kreh Effect" [  : - ) ], and try not to blatantly sell things [  ]. you can pretty much say what you want without fear of too much in the way of reprisals.  Most of the group is interested in discussions relating to our mutual interest in fly fishing.  I personally have never been flamed for asking a dumb question, and I think that if you ask  begineer type questions that are interpreted as sincere you’ll be fine.  Periodically, someone will take umbrage to a question if they believe there is some ulterior motive to the question- like a potential spammer trying to get a sales op for instance. I butted in to my first clave at Ennis 2 years ago after being a lurker for a only a few months.  Met some great people with a wide variety of fishing, and other, experiences.  I believe this is the real fun of this group.  I can wander down to the local fly shop and BS about fishing the Blackfoot whenever I want- but to hear about North Carolina, or the San Juan, or Wisconsin is pretty interesting- to me.  The claves are fun too because you can put a name to a face and a real person and learn something from some damn fine fisherman – sometimes even fishing related stuff. As with all groups, there is a tremendous variety of knowledge and experience present.  Take advantage, have fun, and be responsible about what you post. john

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Ken,      I would hope that all who read my post understood that I took no sides in the matter. I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy. Being that everyone has been in the realm of ROFF for a while, I believed that maybe, just maybe, my opinion would breath a breathe of fresh air into the room.      There are no sides for me, you enjoy fishing, I enjoy fishing, everyone in here enjoys fishing. I say that that puts me on the winning team overall. I may not be as eloquant in writing in my posts as others, but nonetheless, the point is given.      Thanks for the reply, and I cant wait to go to Penns! Fishreeler——<< "Danno Mattice"

Response:

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Hmmmm!!! Frank never told me about that. But I could always find a soft tree out by the creek and fall asleep by the sounds of the water instead of listening to the rustling of a tutu. Fishreeler came about when I was trying to find a screen name on AOL. That is when I was with AOL. So, I have adopted the name as my own now. Seems that all you other fisherman and women took all the good names at the time. However, I kinda like the name and it grows on me. Not to say that I am an expert, but have been doing it for a while. Thanks to all for the warm reception. Fishreeler—–<< Danno Mattice "Cant think of anything quippy to put at the end of my post yet, I havent seasoned enough in ROFF yet"

Response:

… I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy.

As a new guy, your opinions on "the whole matter" are not likely to be well received, inasmuch as they’re not only negative but uninformed. Your opinions and observations about our shared avocation, on the other hand, are most welcome and may very well be a breath of fresh air for some. See you on the stream. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.

And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

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<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. Fishreeler?  Strange name.

made me think of trolling…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

Something I am not only grateful for, but that I count on and plan for, I assure you.  That way, I can say any damned thing I wish – Jeff C. secretly yearns for TBone’s rather unusual sex life, for example – and by the time those who read only various parts attempt to get their stories straight, no one can remember what it was that I claimed or denied to have said… TC, R …that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…unless you can prove otherwise, in which case, google made a mistake…

Response:

To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.

First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else.   And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.  Where I have addressed "you," it’s more addressing the point raised than _you_ specifically, but as your post inspired it, take what you will from it, too.  It’s all IMO, YMMV. As to Ginkles, read his posts and responses to and regarding Frank Church and the fly swap, if none other, to see just a portion of what he is all about.  I rarely advise others against anyone, preferring to allow them to discover and choose for themselves, but regarding Ginkles, I’ll make an exception.  However, if you do choose to befriend him, I’d not hold that decision against you. That said, a few things, all IMO and, of course, YMMV:  First, you seem to be lumping every slight you may have observed, real and what you perceive as real, into the same pile, and IMO, that’s not correct. Of course, there are, um, (generally good-natured) debates where the language may get heated and sarcastic, but likely as not, the apparent "combatants" would drop the debate and go fishing, drinking, whatever together at that very second were it possible.  That is a far cry from attacks by and on Ginkles and others who do or attempt to do real damage.  FWIW, there are only two people, on all of ROFF, past and present, who I would not associate with, Ginkles being one.  As I’ve said it publicly before, so I feel nothing wrong in restating the obvious.  The other, who shall go unnamed, I’d be willing to give the benefit of the doubt should we ever be faced with that situation as the "rift" is, IMO, strictly a difference in personality, not me thinking them as being truly warped.  I suspect that most, if not all, here on ROFF would say a very similar thing. Secondly, any of the, er, debating that takes place is strictly voluntary, and I’ve not seen anyone "attacked" as some seem to imply without the "attackee" getting involved, either by diving in, suggesting that those doing so are wrong, offering opinions on why they are wrong, tips on how to be right, etc.  The best rule on these "debates" is to get in or stay out, because wading in the shallows is still in the water.  If you do wade in the shallows and still get bit, remember that damned little of it is personal, and don’t take it as such. This brings us to a cause of some real problems – getting personal. Don’t do it.  What I mean is going beyond the person on ROFF.  No family members, job/career, etc. unless you are DAMNED sure of what you are doing and willing to deal with the sometimes-dire consequences of making a mistake.  For example, there are several lawyers here, and while a general humorous remark about lawyers is likely OK, "jokingly" accusing one of malpractice is likely gonna get your head torn off, and rightfully so.     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy.

Then you’d never post anything, and that’s a pity.  There will _always_ be someone more knowledgable than _everyone_ , and they may or may not even participate on ROFF.  So who cares?  99.99 percent of FF’ing and the related info, on or off ROFF, is opinion, guesses, observations, and other highly subjective things.  Heck, the rankest newbie might be the only one in a group with 100 experienced FF’ers to guess, opine, observe, etc., correctly.  As to asking questions, of course, sometimes, someone will have a bad day, not had sex with their wife, been forced to have sex with their wife, gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, or a host of other things that leads to teeing up on someone for no apparent reason.  That ain’t ROFF, USENET, or anything computer-specific, that’s life, and if _that_ is what worries a "newbie," they are screwed before they start.  If you take that sort of thing personally, IMO, ROFF ain’t the problem.   So ask away, and if someone tees up, either ignore it or give it back in spades, but remember that pissing and moaning about it will just invite more.  Again, that isn’t ROFF-specific, that’s life.  As to ROFF itself, go back and look through some threads – when it does happen, it isn’t the "feeding frenzy" some imply, it’s generally one person who, for whatever reason, got their back up, while others either gave the requested info or called the person on their conduct (or both). Which brings us to the next tip: there is a "pecking order," and again, this isn’t ROFF-specific.  There is no real "clique" in that newcomers are excluded simply for being newcomers, but there is a core of people who have been around awhile.  People who have been around awhile do develop a sort of "seniority," most come to "know" each other over the years, and many have actually met or have met in a "7 degrees of separation"-kinda way, and so, can get away with personal liberties, such as chastising, that newcomers (An aside – ya know, I think I like "newcomer" more than "newbie") cannot expect to be able to do.  And yet again, this factor isn’t ROFF-specific, you’ll find it on just about any NG, because that’s the way all of life seems to be. Remember that although this is, to a large extent, not a "face-to-face" medium, and that creates a new, and for some, odd, context.  There are people here who "know" each other, care about each other, know details that only friends would know, share things only friends would share, talk regularly as friends do, etc.  The only "new" thing about some of these friends is that they’ve never _all_ physically met.  But they are friends, nonetheless, and so, act just as two/several friends would act if in the same physical space as opposed to the same electronic space.  And just as with them being in the same physical space, a newcomer can’t expect to simply walk up and be treated as one who has a history with the group.  That doesn’t mean he can’t walk up and begin the process.  So, then, what’s stopping you, or any other potential new friend, from "walking" on up? I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field.

Fuck ‘em. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner.

Basically, other than the tackle differences, and the delivery of same, it’s all just attempting to fool fish with stuff that, amazingly, actually manages to sometimes fool them.  Nobody lives or dies based on FF’ing knowledge, so a newcomer is as welcome to be wrong as the rest. A bunch of good stuff snipped, because it didn’t seem to warrant comment. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Respectfully submitted,

Response:

 Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

These are the kind of people who cheat at solitaire and then are happy that they won.  Weird. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

fishreeler, i’m looking forward to wetting a line with you in may. fer gawd’s sake, don’t take wading lesson’s from frank <g –waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. …      Thank you both for posting what you did. …

Oh yeah, chiming in on a hypocritical screed from the village idiot is the perfect way to win friends and influence people around here. Looking forward to meeting you at Penns. You’ll find this place a lot more entertaining when you put some real faces with the screen names. The flyfishing info itself around here is unmatched anywhere I’ve ever seen, it’s a very rare case when a politely posed (and I mean that in the context of netiquette) query goes unanswered. The "entertainment" is admittedly an "acquired taste". Hang in there and wait til after Penns before going all judgmental on us. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed.

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Response:

To George’s Post,

<newbie’s views snipped for brevity Respectfully submitted,

   Dan, hang in with us.  It not all pissin’ into to wind.  This is a Jeckyl and Hyde kinda place, one moment its the Weakest Link on Jerry Springer and the next its linking arms with Barney the Purple Sauropod, singing Kum By Ya while we try to conjure the spirits of Lee Wulff and the Grand Dame.    As I told you this a.m.  Post some trip reports, ask a few salient questions and hang on for the ride.  Don’t be afraid to get flamed. An insult is like a shot of scotch, it only affects you if you accept it.    You will be welcome at the clave (hey, you don’t snore do you?). Oh, the things you will see; lawyers in horizontal striped longjohns, Pirates’ BVDs (best veiwed from a distance), flaming MBA’s juggling boxes (did I get that word order right?), druidic clavemeisters praying to the river Gods, old lech’es luring young mothers into the water for a back rub, naked coed volleyball teams and Amish strippers.     You will also see some of the best fishermen and fisherwomen (I’ve just used up my PC quota for the year) in the world.  Not only are they good at what they do, but they are great at teaching.  The Pirate and Makela on nymphing, Littleton on fly selection, Petah on streamers, Fleischman on cigars, and I’ve even heard that one or two folks can teach you about scotch.     By the way, the price for use of the spare bunk in my tent is a week’s supply of Yeungling.         Good luck and welcome to ROFF.                 Frank The Younger (and better looking) Reid

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

Yes.  But coincidentally there is also a George there who has also spammed unashamedly, and trashed the reputation of his "business" (such as it is) virtually beyond repair.  He refused to see the wisdom of participating like a Walt, Bill, Brian, Al, etc. who all have enriched both their personal lives and their businesses, no doubt, at the same time.  Rather, he chose the path of the fool (he "chose poorly" to quote "IJ and the Last Crusade"), and suffered equally in both areas of his life.  It’s always fascinated me when someone chooses self-destruction.  Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. — After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

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To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

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It simply takes discipline   Peter

I’m on your side Pete.  But for Pete’s sake, Pete, you know most of these guys smoke and drink and quit doing anything takes real discipline, which they don’t have . . . so that thesis goes right down the toilet.  These guys just don’t have will power. Thing is Pete, I’m more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, or even women.   Life sucks, but it sure is better with you in it Pete. Hang tough padre, keep up the good ideas; George Please note the equal opprotunity response I returned to you? You’re welcome Pete.

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So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

I would expect that anyone who indulges in this behaviour and is subjected to this consequence, would escalate his/her trolling in an effort to break the discipline of the group.  If the group cracks, things go back to normal.  If group discipline holds, the posts *will* disappear.  People who indulge in this behaviour abhor silence. It simply takes discipline and the willingness to stick with it over the long haul.  If some people continue to indulge the troll for their personal enjoyment or out of a warped sense of fair play, they weaken the effect.  Whether a diminished chorus would remain sufficient amusement for the troll, is difficult to say.  100% compliance is a practical impossibility and it is not needed.  The group replies have to drop below the threshold of the individual’s need for attention. Once that need is not being met at a sufficient level, the individual will move one. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Well, I choose to go to tools, options, send and uncheck the send immediately box. this allows me to respond vigorously, vent my feelings and get a load off my mind. then the next day I can re-read the stuff in my outbox and see if I still want to send it… Is something like that what you are talking about Jeff…..? john

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So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Frankly Stan, with a little cooperation of mature debating and without having a need to throw rocks, it is easy to agree with you because you just said it better than I ever could. As I had posted, most sincerely to Jeff’s opinion, I’m only a barometer of Roff.  I had explained so many times, talk nice to me and we and many others will talk nice to you.  I am surprised about rec.sports.golf has the same problem because personally, I cannot suffer fools and I see you are the same because you are not the foolish kind nor are you in roff to prove anything, as I am.  I just happen to be a fighter.  I may not be tactful because that only works with gentlemen.   I believe this will all tone down once roff realizes that darwinian isn’t a license to act like the wild west.  I, like you enjoy learning new things and roff does have some mighty smart people in it.  It also behooves many of my email determines how some college graduates who are now in the white collar trades can lose their cool so quickly in roff with each other and so often? For sake of good order, it would make no difference in roff if I left, which I did for four weeks recently.  Roff STILL found others to feed upon and there is no denying this fact.  Roff is like the snake that always has to bite someone because it is its nature.  That old saying is in fact very true as it applies to this group in general. I have observed that on the side, there are men in roff which I regard as top drawer.  That they must try and communicate in such a beehive of raging maniacs of false, insulted sensibilities (or any other excuse they deem fit) to exposes their frustrations, short of hitting on their wives or daughters, is frankly . . . so amazing!  Roff, in so many ways is but the mirror of those who deal daily with bad bosses, supervisors, duel personalities in the social scheme of things that they come to roff to "dump on anyone" they can, just to get even.  Frankly, what I don’t know about Roffian behavior and why people such as Ken Fortenberry, David LaCourse, and his ilk like Charlie Choc behave as they do is much greater than any of us know.  Which means, they can’t help being the way they are!  They are just pissed at the world in general. Frankly, I’m really a very funny guy in person and I have a great sense of humor Stan.  Venting hostilities with humor would serve a good many in roff a lot better then swearing at each other.  There is a knack at putting down anyone cleverly, if that is their need but it is my opinion it takes a better man to lift someone’s spirits rather than jumping on a Newbies just to show off one’s intellectual dominance. I have always said that when you put two people in a room, as in roff, one mind will always try and dominate the other.  When it comes to two gentlemen who respect each other, that is seldom the case.  They simply enjoy talking to each other.  Roff has forgotten how to enjoy talking with each other. I notice the fondness in general of the folk in North Carolina have for each other and it is gentle jousting but it is intended in friendship. Outside that area, it doesn’t generally extend to the west coast, have you noticed?  Those who play together get along better together has merit and that is why I’ve always thought a Conclave would be a good idea and they have proven to be just that. Now then, since I’m on a roll here, I should explain that the reason I have yet to want to attend any Conclave is I don’t believe in trying to be comfortable with anyone that in person, they smile at each other as if they never attacked each other then go home and be so vicious with each other when they are gone.  This Jeckle/Hyde persona just doesn’t wash with me.  It is  two faced, it is cowardly, and it doesn’t allow my nature to trust such people away and/or in person.  A man should be exactly as he seems here as he should be in person.  Understanding, reason, giving allowances, benefit of the doubt, all go a long ways. Certain Roffians could care less how reasonable someone tries to be with them.  They don’t want that.  They want the chaos to continue and they will do anything to keep it going. Roff has some professional trollers who’s job it is to influence public opinion and I will leave it at that.  They have that writing style that points to them like a flashing red light. They are somewhat knowledgeable but they are also totally predictable.   Over a good period of time Stan, we all get a sense of where we want to be in Roff.  I know there are several hundred fly fishing people who watch and read roff periodically and they leave in disgust.  They leave and won’t post not because they did anything disgusting, but because Roff is its own best enemy.  People want to visit friendly people, and when ROFF as a whole allows the type of personal demeaning behavior of people like Ken Fortenberry, or any of the others that talk the same way to others to continue, it simply is not the place they want to be.  Roff is just poorer for it and it behooves me and many others how so many in roff are fearful of correcting what they think are their friends? Possibly, you don’t agree Stan, but you’ve written me in private before and your messages have always been on a high plain and enjoyable.  Why can’t all the others talk to each other with the same respect and interest?  Take me out of the picture, the banter never stops.  It is time to stand up and be counted and I sure know I can stand up as reasonable as anyone else in roff. As they will say in Utah . . . "let the games begin." Just don’t change Stan, because I sure haven’t. ; ) Your pal, George Gehrke "the house pest"

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So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Response:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg.

You know Jeff?  This is so full on nonsense I can’t believe you actually believe this stuff?  Case in point. Just recently, a gentleman asked a question about whether he should weight his nymphs or not.  To the last man in ROFF, EVERYONE said yes. Okay.  Fine and good. I Post in Roff my opinions and experiences gathered in over 50 years in fly fishing partner.  I was the only one to say, "No, you don’t want to do that," and I proceeded to explain the "why of it." Seems, according to the responses to "George’s Post" how hard everyone tried to tear the years of experience I had with Nymphing, apart.  Now then, do you care to deny this? I wrote a very intelligent, factual, informative piece in which I’d wager my life upon, everyone had received "food for thought," because they never heard this "stuff" before.  Do you care to deny this also? Just because I am the mirror of ROFF, doesn’t mean I’m a Village Idiot at all. The idiots are those who stoop to lower levels because "they didn’t think about or know what I know" and it galls them to listen to a winner.  Big dang deal.  Ask me if I care? All you guys should realize I haven’t changed one bit since the first day I arrived to help out in Roff.  What you all haven’t learned is that I’m my own man.  You talk to me nasty and like the mirror I am, you will get back exactly the same in return.  The worse you give the same about you receive.  Haven’t any of you learned this yet?  You talk nice to me and others and you get exactly the same in return.  But you know what? A lot of you are too stupid to have figured this out in several years now. LaCourse goes back and pulls out a nasty piece of response but he doesn’t bring up the post it was responding to, does he.  Roff’s whole history, is one of the Key Board Colt .45  The great equalizer.  So if some of you will start reading this post with a little open mindedness, you might get insight not into me so much as much as you will about yourselves.   Case in point:  Every one of you go back and match YOUR POSTS to me. The good get good and serious responses.  The Ugly get slapped right back in the face.  Simple as that. Now then, I will admit to past "trolls, or baiting roff," which isn’t hard to do, but I haven’t done that for a while.  When I do this, I put in this:  ; ) cast . . . mend, etc. and this some of you know is my way of stirring some fun up, but I can’t remember ever starting something in a hateful or mean manner.  Outside that, I’m the same "George the Fly Fisherman" you have always known. The problem with ROFF is never have I seen the truth exploited as well where "Familiarity Breeds Contempt."  Some of you would do well to stop and read this carefully because I’m not pulling any punches with you now.  I have had many well know fly fishermen, and all of you know I am close to many of them, who have said to me . . . "I have seen what a bunch of jerks are in Roff George and if I were to come there to help, sooner or later they would start the same things with me."  Well, this is TRUE!  Not all, those who have ever piled upon my back are the same ones that would do it to others, no matter what the famous fly fisherman was.  Why?  Because deep down, some of you bastards have an insatiable need to demean people who have made it up the ladder of success. I see the same thing happen yearly with the qualified gentry of fly fishing.  One was in a bar having evening cocktails with me.  Before long, our table was filled with fly fishermen horning in.  They weren’t invited to join us, but it comes with the territory.  So here I am, letting you guys in on what goes through our heads because we ARE human.  We don’t say anything, and soon all the chairs are full, others are pulled up and then there is a standing crowd.  It isn’t long, someone makes a wise crack to my well known friend, where upon, without comment . . . (not much) he gets up and quietly leave for his room. I do the same. Why is it, some of you guys simply are jerks?  This isn’t MY opinion but it is the common thread I receive from all around this world about YOU GUYS!  I didn’t say, "about me," but YOU GUYS!   A bunch of you think you’re righteous because you have a common bond of being a bunch of junk yard dogs who dare anyone to come in here and invade your domain.  This is nonsense. There is a lot of talent watching your every thread and I’m talking fly fishing talent that would bury Roff!  BURY IT!  They don’t come here because they hate your guts and that is the truth.  However; these same people are writing me behind your back saying one common thing.  "Hang in there George.  Don’t quit.  I love everything you write regarding fly fishing, etc."  Now this is the truth.  You Sludge Slugs of Roff can feed on your own hateful nature, fill your egos by trying to demean others and as I said before, you really are only demeaning yourselves. What you see with me is what you’re going to get.   I’m not going anywhere gentlemen.  I’m staying right here.  If you don’t want to read my stuff, go party somewhere else because this is "MY SANDBOX" and your here talking to me because you’re invited.  What I mean by that is, you talk nice to me and if I respond, that is the invite.   That’s the way its going to be.  Take it or leave it, and frankly I’d prefer if some of you simply leave it because you do nothing but waste good air. So you do have a choice.     George Gehrke "Fly Fisherman" http://www.gink.com A Site full of bastards

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Question:

OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to

share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

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Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op

Shit Op, even a blind pig will find an acorn eventually. Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -}<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

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will other suckers for punishment be able to tie in both groups?…just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share SNIPPEDED FOR BREVITY Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister I just love a thinkin’ man! Op Shit Op, even a blind pig will find an acorn eventually. Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

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will other suckers for punishment be able to tie in both groups?…just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

….well, right off the top of my bald head Eugene I don’t see why not…we might just give that a try and see how it works. At least those who don’t mind tying a bunch of flies will have a shot at it.  I’ll hold that thought till 2003. Frank Church

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps.

**Snipped a great plan** Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

Sounds like a good idea to me o’ Master Swapmeister Obi-wan Church! Jeff

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Sounds like a great idea. I am new to the group and new to fly fishing. I plan to start tying this spring and would loved to have participated. Maybe I can get in on it next time. -wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups) Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

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just about done my flies for this round by the way…will send them off next week… Eugene

Show off!

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The size twenty group sounds good.  I had trouble this year tying 40 flys of the same pattern, no two of which were alike. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups)  Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

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The size twenty group sounds good.  I had trouble this year tying 40 flys of the same pattern, no two of which were alike. Lou

Lou…. no problem, we only see one fly…. who is to know what the other 40 look like… <g Frank, is this 20 quantity retroactive? <g Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

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Lou…. no problem, we only see one fly…. who is to know what the other 40 look like… <g Frank, is this 20 quantity retroactive? <g Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com

Too late Walt, wished I had thought of it sooner tho. Frank

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YOU!  WILL TIE THIS FLY!!!!! Frank Church Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom

not

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Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something. Start with those who don’t make the Jan 1 list, then open up to those who can’t get enough pain (like me) q8-) Gary         I tie, I fly, so I buy, …therefor I’m broke. OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up.

Snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

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Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something.

We have a volunteer swapmeister!

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Frank how about a 2nd Swap ? … Say 20-30 people, around March 15, call it March Madness or something. Start with those who don’t make the Jan 1 list, then open up to those who can’t get enough pain (like me) q8-) Gary

…..sounds like a reasonable suggestion Gary, but for me I’d just as soon get it over and done with in the first part of the winter. Beginning in March, a good many of our folks are starting to think seriously about going fishing after the enforced time-out thru the winter months…me for example. Now, if anyone else wants to take that on, be my guest.  After the dust settles from the Great Fly Swap (maybe I oughta copyright that :-] )  I’m ready to move on to something else, like getting my boat ready and haunting the local lakes here for ice-out. Glad to see someone else is in to pain too. :-  Seems to me that splitting the total number of tyers into two groups in Jan. might be the better choice. Several agreed with me, and no criticisms were allowed anyway so I had nothing but positive feedback. (smiley implied here) Frank I’m not broke so much from fishing stuff, but I have a high-maintenance wife and a cat that demands top of the line kitty food.

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps.

Gee Frank, that’s such a good idea, I’m glad I though of it.  :-) Joe F.

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. Gee Frank, that’s such a good idea, I’m glad I though of it.  :-) Joe F.

If you’re saying you thought of it first, I’m not surprised. And if you mentioned it I either didn’t see it or have forgotten already. *That* doesn’t surprise me!  Let’s give credit where credit is due, thank you Joe. Frank the plagiarizer Church

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And if you mentioned it I either didn’t see it or have forgotten already. *That* doesn’t surprise me!

Actually, that’s how I’d set up the ground rules for the DDFS; but since folks weren’t exactly beating down the door for that one, implementation of that scheme never came into play; and it was (quite appropriately) forgotten.   I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-) Joe F.

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I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-)

Of course, the *first* one to think of that was… <g — Charlie…

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What am I supposed to think of this kind of reactions to what appears to be a rather normal answer to a rather normal question, Mr. Gehrke? Did good old Alois finally got his hands on you? Hans van der Stroom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – YOU!  WILL TIE THIS FLY!!!!! Frank Church Me too, I think it’s a good idea! Hans van der Stroom not

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What am I supposed to think of this kind of reactions to what appears to be a rather normal answer to a rather normal question, Mr. Gehrke? Did good old Alois finally got his hands on you? Hans van der Stroom

I’m glad you thought of that Hans.  Perhaps? George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff"

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Gehrke writes: George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff"

You misspelled moron. Pirate

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Gehrke writes: George Von Gehrke "the Baron of Roff" You misspelled moron. Excuse me.  It’s spelled "LaCourse"

George Gehrke Pirate Stomper

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Charlie Choc wrote… I’m not due any credit, just having a little smile.  :-) Of course, the *first* one to think of that was… <g

We all know how that one goes….. http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2722174 — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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OK, things seem to have quieted down somewhat, so I’ll jump in here to share an idea I have about *future* Great Fly Swaps. It pains me to have to turn away folks that want to be a part of it, and this year at least 5 didn’t make it and maybe more that just gave up. I think (and most would agree) that tying 40 flies is just about the max acceptable.(except for those experts who can whip out 40 in an afternoon)  So here is what I propose for future swaps…Let *everyone* sign-up, no limit. Then when the dust settles in a few days I can split the number of tyers right down the middle and wind up with 2 groups of around 20 or so. Then each half would tie for their group….this would then eliminate the cap on the number of tyers and nobody would have to tie more flies than just their group. (except me of course, being a glutton for punishment..I would tie the total number of both groups)  Nothing else would be changed, just send ‘em in to me and I’ll divvy up the flies according to the group you are in. The Great Fly Swap will *always* commence on Jan 1st, and after the 2 groups have been established, a time limit will be announced as to when the flies are to be in to me. Any comments, questions will be entertained. Criticisms will be shitcanned immediately. :-] Your Benevolent Old Swapmeister

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Question:

and why over-planning can lead to a skunking. We all get skunked sometimes but the skunkings that really bug me are the ones where others around me are catching fish and I’m getting diddly.  I don’t enjoy the feeling of incompetence.  The penny has finally dropped as to why (and no, the incompetence isn’t it.) We all go fishing operating on theory, approach, and method, but I’m starting to form the opinion that one can get too hung up on it. Before you dismiss me as being completely loonie consider this example of T.A.& M.: Theory – "Big browns feed at night." Approach – The big, slow pools on river XXXX should be fished at dusk. Method – Take a 6 wt. and cast a deerhair mouse pattern across current allowing the slow movement of the water to drag the mouse slowly across the pool. Unless one is a complete rookie, we all go through some sort of thought process like this before heading out.  But what happens if we do this in too great a detail and try to fit the river to our plans instead of the other way around?  What happens if there’s a hex hatch starting but we are still banging away with our mouse? Before setting out for the Penns clave, I’d pretty well decided that I’d swing wets or streamers if no hatch was happening.  The first day in, I was completely skunked until I gave up on the idea and began dredging the green water with PTs.  On my last trip to the Whirlpool, I had decided on speys and streamers, again nothing until I started dredging the bottom with bunny leeches.  Armed with this experience, I took my bunny leeches to the Catt, dredged the deep runs and was skunked again.  Last Sunday, I went to the Credit even though I knew the river would be blown out, just to try the new rod.  When I got down to the big tree pool, I tied on a black & purple spider spey and a sinking Polyleader as it seemed the appropriate thing to do, then began casting and drifting, getting the feel of the big stick, fixing casting problems, and fiddling with the mending.  Without even trying, I was into a fish.  In PA, the Whirlpool and at the Catt, I was getting skunked while others hooked fish.  At the Credit, I was the only one in the vicinity to get into a fish.  The boot was on the other foot. Duh!  Bingo!  Go with the flow instead or persisting with a pre-planned method.  It seems so blindingly obvious when I write it, but it’s so subtle to detect in real life.  We have to do some planning else we’d show up at the river with no rod but being too focused before leaving the house can saddle one with a goose egg. Perhaps I’m the only angler on the planet to do this, but I’m willing to bet I’m not.  From this point on, there will be at least one less. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Skunkings are primarily caused by being jinxed. To wit: Have you ever noticed that if you are catching fish hand over fist and then explain your success to another angler, the other angler will start catching fish and you will not catch another fish for at least 2 hours, probably the rest of the day? My fishing buddy, Rat, caught more fish on Good Friday than he had ever caught in his life. The rest of the summer, he was notably behind the curve. Even God is in on this. It is all superstition. Absolutely no science or method to it at all… — Citizen Fisherman I’m kinda spooked; I think I may have said too much already… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and why over-planning can lead to a skunking. We all get skunked sometimes but the skunkings that really bug me are the ones where others around me are catching fish and I’m getting diddly.  I don’t enjoy the feeling of incompetence.  The penny has finally dropped as to why (and no, the incompetence isn’t it.) We all go fishing operating on theory, approach, and method, but I’m starting to form the opinion that one can get too hung up on it. Before you dismiss me as being completely loonie consider this example of T.A.& M.: Theory – "Big browns feed at night." Approach – The big, slow pools on river XXXX should be fished at dusk. Method – Take a 6 wt. and cast a deerhair mouse pattern across current allowing the slow movement of the water to drag the mouse slowly across the pool. Unless one is a complete rookie, we all go through some sort of thought process like this before heading out.  But what happens if we do this in too great a detail and try to fit the river to our plans instead of the other way around?  What happens if there’s a hex hatch starting but we are still banging away with our mouse? Before setting out for the Penns clave, I’d pretty well decided that I’d swing wets or streamers if no hatch was happening.  The first day in, I was completely skunked until I gave up on the idea and began dredging the green water with PTs.  On my last trip to the Whirlpool, I had decided on speys and streamers, again nothing until I started dredging the bottom with bunny leeches.  Armed with this experience, I took my bunny leeches to the Catt, dredged the deep runs and was skunked again.  Last Sunday, I went to the Credit even though I knew the river would be blown out, just to try the new rod.  When I got down to the big tree pool, I tied on a black & purple spider spey and a sinking Polyleader as it seemed the appropriate thing to do, then began casting and drifting, getting the feel of the big stick, fixing casting problems, and fiddling with the mending.  Without even trying, I was into a fish.  In PA, the Whirlpool and at the Catt, I was getting skunked while others hooked fish.  At the Credit, I was the only one in the vicinity to get into a fish.  The boot was on the other foot. Duh!  Bingo!  Go with the flow instead or persisting with a pre-planned method.  It seems so blindingly obvious when I write it, but it’s so subtle to detect in real life.  We have to do some planning else we’d show up at the river with no rod but being too focused before leaving the house can saddle one with a goose egg. Perhaps I’m the only angler on the planet to do this, but I’m willing to bet I’m not.  From this point on, there will be at least one less. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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George Adams writes: FWIW, I have have found the Jailbird to be most effective fished deep, as a dropper or under an indicator.

Shhhhhhhhh! Dave

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what color closed cell foam?

On the original (olive) pattern, I use white or yellow. On the modified (tan) pattern, I use yellow or orange. They seem to be most successful in sizes #18 -#22. I have done well with this pattern tied on scud type (curved) hooks and conventional wet fly hooks. There are a number of midge pups patterns, Serendipity for example, that incorporate a bouyant (deer hair or foam) collar so , at least in theory, the fly rides upright in the water. FWIW, I have have found the Jailbird to be most effective fished deep, as a dropper or under an indicator. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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 It also helps to keep an open mind, and not get too fixated on one particular aspect (unless, as a couple of people have pointed out, THAT is the goal) if you are _fishing_, rather than experimenting, testing, etc.

Interesting point. On a local freestone stream, most folks hit the pools in the fall with PT nymphs, or midge/bwo dry patterns.  I was down in a spot with a couple of small pools and pocket water.  In the small pools I  was noticing every once in a while a leaf would hit the water and bang! it would get hit.  I watched it a couple of times, figuring out that there was a terrestrial hanging on the falling leaf that was getting hit.  I didn’t find out *what*, though . In addition, there were a lot of yellow jackets around.  In talking with some folks who fished succesfully in that stretch, they were using bee patterns very successfully, even though it was past the traditional time for terrestrials. On the leaves, it could have been some left over ants or something hanging on…don’t know for sure.  But of course, I was geared up with 20 and 22 BWO’s and BHPT’s which were being ignored. Similar observations and results with another angler upstream a bit.  I didn’t have any terrestrial patterns with me, though, or I would have tried them. Rob

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what color closed cell foam? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George Adams writes: Dave, Try the same pattern with tan dubbing, and either orange or yellow foam. {:-) And maybe change the ribbing to orange.  I’ll give it a try (come June). Dave

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For me, it’s a matter of choosing a method at the house rather than when I arrived at the water, based either on past experience or just for the hell of it.  

Oh, well, yeah, you’re right then:  that’s just beggin’ for a skunkin’. When I would do that (for steelheading, it usually meant leaving one or another of the rods or lines at home, assuming I’d never, ever need it, not today), the invariable result was regret. Good luck on the Credit today.  BTW, how’s that thesis coming? JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree.  Being flexible is by far the best plan.  The trick to making it work, though, is to stick to it no matter what!  ;) Seriously, I wish life were that simple.  I’ve more than once been skunked in the morning, only to catch a mess in the afternoon, using the same technique.  Often the conditions change to coincide with whatever method we happen to be using.  Sometimes the "changed condition" can be simply moving down or up to a different piece of water.   Your post set me thinking back.  I don’t know that I’ve been skunked more often by sticking stubbornly to one method than by switching willy-nilly every twenty minutes from one fly and presentation to another.  The one thing to avoid, I think, is doing something–whatever it is–for no good reason, casting about blindly, as it were.  If I’ve decided on a method for good reason (weather, look of the water, behavior of the fish, past experience), I’ll generally stick with it until I’ve got an equally good reason to change.  Of course, human nature being what it is, a stretch of two or three fishless hours can in itself grow to seem a sufficient reason <g. Parenthetically, I find if the fishing is pleasant (balmy weather, pleasant scenery), I’m less tempted to change my plan than when it’s cold, grey, windy and raining. JR

For me, it’s a matter of choosing a method at the house rather than when I arrived at the water, based either on past experience or just for the hell of it.  The results are often not that good until I start paying attention to what the conditions are telling me.   I’ll be leaving for the Credit soon and this time I’ll be taking a good look at the water before I decide what to do. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Duh!  Bingo!  Go with the flow instead or persisting with a pre-planned method.  It seems so blindingly obvious when I write it, but it’s so subtle to detect in real life.  We have to do some planning else we’d show up at the river with no rod but being too focused before leaving the house can saddle one with a goose egg. Perhaps I’m the only angler on the planet to do this, but I’m willing to bet I’m not.  From this point on, there will be at least one less.

I agree.  Being flexible is by far the best plan.  The trick to making it work, though, is to stick to it no matter what!  ;) Seriously, I wish life were that simple.  I’ve more than once been skunked in the morning, only to catch a mess in the afternoon, using the same technique.  Often the conditions change to coincide with whatever method we happen to be using.  Sometimes the "changed condition" can be simply moving down or up to a different piece of water.   Your post set me thinking back.  I don’t know that I’ve been skunked more often by sticking stubbornly to one method than by switching willy-nilly every twenty minutes from one fly and presentation to another.  The one thing to avoid, I think, is doing something–whatever it is–for no good reason, casting about blindly, as it were.  If I’ve decided on a method for good reason (weather, look of the water, behavior of the fish, past experience), I’ll generally stick with it until I’ve got an equally good reason to change.  Of course, human nature being what it is, a stretch of two or three fishless hours can in itself grow to seem a sufficient reason <g. Parenthetically, I find if the fishing is pleasant (balmy weather, pleasant scenery), I’m less tempted to change my plan than when it’s cold, grey, windy and raining. JR

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Example:  A couple of years ago I came across a pattern at an Orvis store. It’s called the "jail bird".  A very easy tie – size 20 hook, some closed cell foam at the thorax, olive dubbing with a red thread ribbing.

Dave, Try the same pattern with tan dubbing, and either orange or yellow foam. {:-) George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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George Adams writes: Dave, Try the same pattern with tan dubbing, and either orange or yellow foam. {:-)

And maybe change the ribbing to orange.  I’ll give it a try (come June). Dave

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Skunkings are primarily caused by being jinxed. To wit: Have you ever noticed that if you are catching fish hand over fist and then explain your success to another angler, the other angler will start catching fish and you will not catch another fish for at least 2 hours, probably the rest of the day?

No, I’ve never noticed that. — Check out the ROFF Calendar at: http://www.ruralnetwork.net/%7Etroutbum/calendar/calendar.html

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willi, I agree with you–it is fun just to try new methods and tools.  I never catch many fish but enjoy spending a little time reading then going out ant trying a new technique. still no success with streamers or upstream casting of nymphs- but then perhaps the fish had not read the same article. Had great fun in Oct. when Big Dale and I shared cabin on small N.C. stream.[ see below I hit wrong button] first time I got a chance to fish same stream for four days with similar weather conditions. Tried dries, nymphs and streamers  for a day each   all with  minor success.  The fourth morning I walked down to the creek, cast three times and caught three fish–then not another in two hours. Some days are more fun than others.      Indian Joe    Wilmington N.C. some days are more fun than others.

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and why over-planning can lead to a skunking. We all get skunked sometimes but the skunkings that really bug me are the ones where others around me are catching fish and I’m getting diddly.  I don’t enjoy the feeling of incompetence.  The penny has finally dropped as to why (and no, the incompetence isn’t it.) We all go fishing operating on theory, approach, and method, but I’m starting to form the opinion that one can get too hung up on it.

It always helps to do some basic planning, and research/ reconnaissance, before hitting the water, just to know what’s there, so you can make an educated guess as to what’s possible, what’s likely, and what else _might_work if your originally-intended method seems to be "off."  It also helps to keep an open mind, and not get too fixated on one particular aspect (unless, as a couple of people have pointed out, THAT is the goal) if you are _fishing_, rather than experimenting, testing, etc. This is one reason why (a disappointingly decreasing percentage, I’d offer) some anglers take a few basic tying supplies with them (certainly on overnight or longer trips), even on all-day trips.  You don’t need a lot of stuff – a water-tight "flip-top" eyeglass or cigarette box will hold a sufficiency – but of course, some at-home freehand tying practice is important unless you want to lug a vise (I don’t, but a "multi-purpose" tool and stout rubber band will do in a pinch, as will a pin vise).  It also helps to be ready to use whatever is at hand as a material.  In fact, some notable "modification" patterns are reported to have originated with less-than-orthodox materials adapted "spur of the moment."  If you do use any less-than-orthodox material, depending on source, or even traditional material long-stored in fishing clothing, I’d advise attempting to remove as much "human scent" as possible – for example, if you use some pocket lint for dubbing, rub it in some natural material, dirt/mud (if it’s not on the reddish side), loam, etc. and rinse in the fishing water.  I can’t say for sure as to whether the fish can tell, but I do think that it’s better safe than sorry.

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Peter Charles wrote…. and why over-planning can lead to a skunking.

Not over planning just stubborness.   You want to do it the way you want and you forget why you’re there. Your way or no way.  A little flexibility and your accumulated knowledge and your back to catching fish. There’s no explaining a skunking. There’s no reason or logic when others are catching and you’re not. Unless you’re totally inept.  It’s just chance. Fate. What brings you back next time. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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I’m getting into this discussion a little late…  In waters that I know, it is always fun to experiment with something new.  During the off-season (now), I will tie new patterns that I *know* will work.  Call it intuition.  Most times they *do*  work.   Example:  A couple of years ago I came across a pattern at an Orvis store. It’s called the "jail bird".  A very easy tie – size 20 hook, some closed cell foam at the thorax, olive dubbing with a red thread ribbing.  I *knew* it would work at a certain spot on a certain river.  My first short cast with it brought up a beautiful brookie. Another example, Peter, is those Clousers you tied in September.  When I saw them I knew they would work – and they did.  <g I’ve never been skunked on that river – came close a few times, however. That is when I stop my "normal" attack and use something different, something that I *know* they will like.  We’ve heard it said that trout are like women:  find out what they want and give it to them.  The finding out part can be very difficult, especially on waters unfamiliar to you.   Dave

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Peter,   You make, as ever, good points. I think another couple are:1)knowledge of the river you are fishing often prevents bad theory in the first place and 2) on hard-fished rivers, something different often works.   To feebly illustrate: Using your Penn’s example, I could have shown you places in the early morning to hammer them with streamers, even in the lower waters. Also, large wets were working pretty well in the off peak times over the right water. I had a bit more local knowledge(and you and David rendered yourselves out of reach of where I was fishing most days,lest any readers think I was witholding advice).

Well, that was my first thought. You’re right about fishing waters you know well. Knowing them well and the comfort that gives, is one of their pleasures. On my home river, there are a number of small areas I know that fish use as feeding stations that are almost always ignored by other anglers. They are in nondiscript water that I found from watching the fish during low water conditions or dimpling during a hatch. On the other hand, new waters are exciting; from figuring out where and how to fish, to just being in a new beautiful place. Willi

Response:

Peter,   You make, as ever, good points. I think another couple are:1)knowledge of the river you are fishing often prevents bad theory in the first place and 2) on hard-fished rivers, something different often works.   To feebly illustrate: Using your Penn’s example, I could have shown you places in the early morning to hammer them with streamers, even in the lower waters. Also, large wets were working pretty well in the off peak times over the right water. I had a bit more local knowledge(and you and David rendered yourselves out of reach of where I was fishing most days,lest any readers think I was witholding advice).   For the other point, I once fished the Tulpehocken during a decent caddis emergence. I, and several others patiently tried adults, pupa and the like, to little effect. Some fella rolls through with a chartreuse Glo-bug and has browns of 18 inches or so chasing the thing. He landed 4 from the pool I was fishing and moved on…                                Tom L

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I agree that persisting with a pre-planned method is often going to result in few or no fish especially if the conditions don’t warrant the method you’ve chosen. However, there are times, especially on my home river that I decide I’m going to catch fish on my terms or I won’t catch any. Sometimes I just want to fish a particular technique, catching lots of fish isn’t always the goal. Sometimes it’s fun to try and "will" a fish to take something that "shouldn’t" work. Willi

I agree – you know X will catch fish so you try Y just for shits & giggles.  Done it many times.  That’s for waters you know well, however my sins extend to waters that I know squat about.  It’s just a matter of not bringing too many preconceived notions to the water. You can’t hear what the water is telling you over the cacophony of your plans. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and why over-planning can lead to a skunking. We all get skunked sometimes but the skunkings that really bug me are the ones where others around me are catching fish and I’m getting diddly.  I don’t enjoy the feeling of incompetence.  The penny has finally dropped as to why (and no, the incompetence isn’t it.) Duh!  Bingo!  Go with the flow instead or persisting with a pre-planned method.  It seems so blindingly obvious when I write it, but it’s so subtle to detect in real life.  We have to do some planning else we’d show up at the river with no rod but being too focused before leaving the house can saddle one with a goose egg. Perhaps I’m the only angler on the planet to do this, but I’m willing to bet I’m not.  From this point on, there will be at least one less.

I agree that persisting with a pre-planned method is often going to result in few or no fish especially if the conditions don’t warrant the method you’ve chosen. However, there are times, especially on my home river that I decide I’m going to catch fish on my terms or I won’t catch any. Sometimes I just want to fish a particular technique, catching lots of fish isn’t always the goal. Sometimes it’s fun to try and "will" a fish to take something that "shouldn’t" work. Willi

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Question:

Could you be more specific on where in B.C. you are going to finish your schooling.   Hi all   I’m currently living in Ontario. And going to   move back to BC to finish some schooling. So now that I have a choice on where to live, I want a place for flyfishing on the weekends. Any requests or comments would be greatly appreciated..                                               thanx

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I request that your residence have an extra room, set aside specifically for ROFFian visitors, you hold a Clave once a year in August, you never marry and you are to never move again! Opie     **Psychic To The Recently Deceased**   Hi all   I’m currently living in Ontario. And going to   move back to BC to finish some schooling. So now that I have a choice on where to live, I want a place for flyfishing on the weekends. Any requests or comments would be greatly appreciated..                                               thanx

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Hi all I’m currently living in Ontario. And going to   move back to BC to finish some schooling. So now that I have a choice on where to live, I want a place for flyfishing on the weekends. Any requests or comments would be greatly appreciated..                                             thanx

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steve James writes: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all I’m currently living in Ontario. And going to   move back to BC to = finish some schooling. So now that I have a choice on where to live, I = want a place for flyfishing on the weekends. Any requests or comments = would be greatly appreciated..                                            thanx=20 Content-Type: text/html;    charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" <HEAD <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3017.1000" name=3DGENERATOR <STYLE</STYLE </HEAD <DIVHi all</DIV <DIVI’m currently living in Ontario. And going = to&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 move back&nbsp;to BC to finish some schooling. = So now=20 that I have a choice on where to live, I=20 want&nbsp;a&nbsp;place for flyfishing on the weekends.&nbsp;Any requests = or=20 comments would be greatly appreciated..</DIV <DIV<FONT=20 face=3DArial&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&= nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n= bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 thanx&nbsp;</DIV

Yeah.  Stop posting in html.  You’re welcome. Dave LaCourse

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Question:

Unfortunately there is no cure to this illness and it has been known to have such side effects including, but not limited to, poverty, divorce, sleeplessness, and wandering from trout stream to trout stream.

Warren, I read about your basement apartment and it saddened me.  I hope you’re okay and that you’re not left in a financial hole for the rest of your life. My brother can’t seem to lift his head above water and it’s been 7 years now.  He had to move back in with mom and dad because he can’t financially support himself after he pays everything else.  I just wish situations like this were more fair for everyone instead of sticking it to the guy.  I’d like to see my brother able to move into his own place and become independent, but as soon as he gets a little better job or a pay raze, they ask for more money.  He has two jobs and has to work so many hours that he doesn’t even have time to see his kid.  Now, is that fair?  It’s as though he has become a financial slave, allowing others to create a new life and frolic in the sun while he works his ass off. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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Vern, not to worry.  Maybe I can make tons of money as a trout bum down the road.  Hell, hopefully I can get my degree and then get into law school. That’s my goal anyway.  I hear them lawyers invented copper wire by fighting over a penny and can make their own schedules which allows them plenty of time to fish.  In the meantime I’ll just have to make due. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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…but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex

Well, you’re getting ready to go on a trip soon, right?  Why don’t you tell us more about what the conditions are like there, where it is, what kind of water, what kind of fish, etc. Regards, Jeff

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex Well, you’re getting ready to go on a trip soon, right?  Why don’t you tell us more about what the conditions are like there, where it is, what kind of water, what kind of fish, etc. Regards, Jeff

hello jeff, well i am not sure of the place that i am going, since i have never been there before. But for what i do know and for what i have researched, is.. Pocono region in PA, there is the Lehigh River, a large river i assume, maybe some fast currents, due to the fact that they have white water rafting. Stocked for trout, rainbows, browns, brooks, steelheads, as far as other fish i am unsure, sure theres alot though,,, water conditions are varied at the moment,, water is moving quite fast although the levels are declining… other than that i am still in the process of the research…casting question,,,when there is a loud "snap" , is that good or bad? do you know of any internet videos that show the ideal casting movement and or presentations?  also, what should the ideal lenghts of the leader and the tippit be? Can you attach aweight forward line to a balanced line..etc…. last but not least(for today )  is it ok to have all of the fly line out and getting into the backing during casting, or is that mostly for when you have a fish on the run?  thanks. alex * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best?

I haven’t fished the Lehigh but it is a big river.  Assuming you’ll be fishing below the dam it is 50-100 feet wide in places and wading can be difficult so be careful how you step.  I have read if you want to avoid the rafters it’s better to fish above White Haven, or below early or late in the day.  As for the fishing, just fish whenever you can – trout can be caught all day long. Try starting out with a basic technique that appeals to you – upstream or 45 degrees up-and-across stream with a dry fly or a nymph and strike indicator, or possibly a streamer like a Woolly Bugger across and downstream.  Get one of the beginner books recommended, and go out and fish! casting question,,,when there is a loud "snap" , is that good or bad?

Not good.  It’s like cracking a bull whip and it’s even possible to snap a fly off that way!  But the main problem is your cast is not well synchronized yet, but that is common.  As you develop a little more line speed the line will straighten better behind you, and if you wait until it’s uncurled behind you or almost uncurled before casting forward this problem will go away. do you know of any internet videos that show the ideal casting movement and or presentations?

Someone else please? Can you attach aweight forward line to a balanced line

Not sure what you mean by balanced line (balanced outfit?), but yes, in fact if you got a level line with your outfit I would suggest replacing it with a value priced WF (Weight Forward).  It should help your casting. what should the ideal lenghts of the leader and the tippit be?

As you might guess there is no one answer.  It depends on the situation.  The longer the leader the more difficult it usually gets to cast.  The fly line can startle fish in clear, smooth water, so a longer leader might be used there. But I wouldn’t worry too much about it under regular conditions and just get a leader around 7.5 to 9 feet.  Or ask you local dealer about what kind of fishing you’ll do on the Lehigh.  You can actually just use the leader right out of the bag for tying on the first fly or 2, but you will want to add a couple feet or so of tippet and replace it as it gets shorter during the day. Some people do this: if they want a 9 foot 4X leader, they buy a 7.5 foot 3X leader and tie on 1.5 to 2 feet of 4X tippet material to it right away. is it ok to have all of the fly line out and getting into the backing during casting, or is that mostly for when you have a fish on the run?

You would be quite a prodigy if you are accomplishing that kind of cast.  A big trout in a strong current could take that much line out, but pretty rarely (steelhead and salmon fishing I suppose it would not be uncommon.) Regards, Jeff

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hello again everyone… i thank everyone that has responded to my message yesterday. all help is appreciated,, so after i sent that message, i looked through the local phone book here in harrisburg, PA,, and found a fly shop,, grabbed my pole and headed down there… after finally finding the shop, i went in and started asking for help,,, the gentlemen where ever so kind and showed me alot, they took the time to explain things and show me the basics. I told them where i would be fishing and what i would mostly be fishing for..trout, bass, etc… then as the years go by, maybe other fish.. but for now i will take what i can get.  :)  so while being excited about the whole things i drove home with some new flys,, and a little knowledge…went in the back yard a practised my casting,, didnt do bad, but can understand and see how this works.. so i then went to the creek to get my feet wet.. after about a hour of tring and casting and oh those wind knots… i caught a fish!!! a bass,, woohoo, he was kinda small, maybe 8 inches, but nonetheless he was a fish… so now atleast i know it works,, but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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hello again everyone… i thank everyone that has responded to my message yesterday. all help is appreciated,, so after i sent that message, i looked through the local phone book here in harrisburg, PA,, and found a fly shop,, grabbed my pole and headed down there

Don’t do that.  This is likely illegal, and if you do it whilst holding a fly _rod_, you could give fly fishermen a bad name (well, really, a worse name…) <G …. after finally finding the shop, i went in and started asking for help,,, the gentlemen where ever so kind and showed me alot, they took the time to explain things and show me the basics. I told them where i would be fishing and what i would mostly be fishing for..trout, bass, etc… then as the years go by, maybe other fish.. but for now i will take what i can get.  :)  so while being excited about the whole things i drove home with some new flys,, and a little knowledge…went in the back yard a practised my casting,, didnt do bad, but can understand and see how this works.. so i then went to the creek to get my feet wet.. after about a hour of tring and casting and oh those wind knots

It will get easier, you sound like you’ve got the right attitude… … i caught a fish!!! a bass,, woohoo, he was kinda small, maybe 8 inches,

WOW, a 2-FOOTER!?!?!  ON THE FIRST CAST?!?!  Well, it is a shame it got away, but it least you landed the smaller one…(HINT, HINT).  You gotta practice all the skills, not just the casting…<G. but nonetheless he was a fish… so now atleast i know it works,, but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?

Oh, god, are you English?  Generally, unless you’re a guest on private waters, fish where the fish are, and here’s why:  If you’re fishing for food, it’s the best way to eat, and if you’re fishing for the love or sport, it’s your love and/or your sport.  Just don’t start doing Brad Pitt imitations or buying "all Orvis, all the time"  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex

TC, Welcome, R

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(snip)

Alex, Sounds like you are off to a good start.  :-) — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

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   Take it one step at a time.  Like me, I tried to do fly fishing on the cheap.  I love the sport but, due to the nature of military service (ya think I’m in it for the money?) I couldn’t afford all those nice things off the bat, so I’ve been slowly building up. (read terminal gear whore after many years)    Tying flies.  I decided to learn to tie flys ’cause it had to cheaper than buying those little bitty things.  If you get the urge to tie flies to save yourself some money, here is my foolproof 7 step plan to tying flies: Step 1:  Find a nice comfortable seat at a table.  Put something like plexiglass over a 2X2 area of the table to protect it from damage.  Don’t use a clamp vise on your dining room table.  The wife will find the damage, trust me. Step 2:  Get something to keep yourself organized.  I use an old ashtray (don’t smoke anymore) to keep small things in cause it has nice little indents in the side to keep all my tools. Step 3:  Reach into your bag and get the duct tape that you keep handy for those fishing emergencies. Step 4:  Have some one (you trust) tie you to the chair using the duct tape. Ensure that all is secure and a piece goes over your mouth. Step 5: Have that person reach into you back pocket, take out your wallet and burn all the money in there in the ashtray. Step 6: Send the person off to the ATM to max out your cards.  Please make sure he has your PIN numbers before he ties you up. Step 7:  Have your buddy burn all the money from the ATM in the ashtray while screaming "Fly tying, Bad!" over and over again.  Voila! You’re done!     This simple 7 step plan will save you the time that you’ll spend hanging out in petting zoos trying to trim that yak, stopping for road kill on a charcoal black ground squirrel and expounding ad nauseum on how unfair the penalty for importing polar bear pelts is to a true fly tying artist.  I won’t even go into the prices that people pay for a chicken skin.  Or the problems that can occur when an improperly stored road kill has its own "hatch."  (never, my God, never mention maggots to my wife)  Burning your money in one swell foop is also cheaper in the long run.  It gets it out of your system quickly and is good for your neighborhood fly merchant.                 The Reid Seven-Step-Method is available as a book on tape.                       Thank you                                     Frank Reid

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Snap is BAD.All the line out to the backing is GOOD.!If you are a beginner and you are casting the whole line to the backing you should be giving lesons! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …but i will be the first to say i have alot of practicing to do,,and alot to learn… like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!  well thanks for listing,, and everyone elses question that i am reading here in this forum… thanks.. Alex Well, you’re getting ready to go on a trip soon, right?  Why don’t you tell us more about what the conditions are like there, where it is, what kind of water, what kind of fish, etc. Regards, Jeff hello jeff, well i am not sure of the place that i am going, since i have never been there before. But for what i do know and for what i have researched, is.. Pocono region in PA, there is the Lehigh River, a large river i assume, maybe some fast currents, due to the fact that they have white water rafting. Stocked for trout, rainbows, browns, brooks, steelheads, as far as other fish i am unsure, sure theres alot though,,, water conditions are varied at the moment,, water is moving quite fast although the levels are declining… other than that i am still in the process of the research…casting question,,,when there is a loud "snap" , is that good or bad? do you know of any internet videos that show the ideal casting movement and or presentations?  also, what should the ideal lenghts of the leader and the tippit be? Can you attach aweight forward line to a balanced line..etc…. last but not least(for today )  is it ok to have all of the fly line out and getting into the backing during casting, or is that mostly for when you have a fish on the run?  thanks. alex * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Alex, glad to hear things went well for you.  Congratulations on catching your first fish on the fly.  Some people find it takes much longer to "devirginize" themselves. like should you fish upstream, or down, or across, or look for pockets?  time of the day that is best? and so on!!!

Unfortunately, there really isn’t any golden rule for these questions.  At times fishing upstream is the best bet, but then again, sometimes the currents will make this impossible and you have to change your position and avenue of approach.  Pockets can be excellent places to pick up fish.  It has been my experience that in general, morning and evening is the most active time, but that fish can be caught all day. I guess this is what I found part of the fun when I started fly fishing.  I had been a worm drowner and hardware hucker for years so I knew how to find the fish, but there were so many challenges to overcome fly fishing that it kept me busy constantly trying to learn and improve.  Let’s just say that the more experience you get, the more you realize you need to learn and the more you will fish, experiment, and read.  Eventually you discover that you will never live long enough to learn *everything* and will be happy just in the attempt. Good luck to you.  Unfortunately there is no cure to this illness and it has been known to have such side effects including, but not limited to, poverty, divorce, sleeplessness, and wandering from trout stream to trout stream. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Question:

    my best buddy has managed an invitation to fish the headwaters of the north platte, just over the wyoming line from colorado, on a working ranch near saratoga.  he knows nothing about the water, although he is highly accomplished at fishing here in the appalachians.     thus, these requests for information…does anyone know any details about this section of the n.platte?  flies of choice (early to mid august); how big is the water; is it too cold to wade without neoprene; are there any tributaries in the area that hold brookies; any other good (or better) water within an hour or so?     remember, this is a one time trip, so it isn’t like you would be disclosing secrets to the great unwashed masses.  please send replies email, or call me collect at 336-275-1231.     thanks for the help.     wayne harrison

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     my best buddy has managed an invitation to fish the headwaters of the north platte, just over the wyoming line from colorado, on a working ranch near saratoga.  he knows nothing about the water, although he is highly accomplished at fishing here in the appalachians.     thus, these requests for information…does anyone know any details about this section of the n.platte?  flies of choice (early to mid august); how big is the water; is it too cold to wade without neoprene; are there any tributaries in the area that hold brookies; any other good (or better) water within an hour or so?     remember, this is a one time trip, so it isn’t like you would be disclosing secrets to the great unwashed masses.  please send replies email, or call me collect at 336-275-1231.     thanks for the help.     wayne harrison

Wayne; Two information sources I can think of, and both are excellent IMO: <<www.rockymtnflyfisher.com and Fly Fishing The North Platte by Rod Walinchus, Pruett Publishing, Boulder, CO, 800-247-8224. Rocky Mountain Fly Fisher produces a Windows CD-ROM with info and maps on sevreal dozen Rocky Mountain streams. Al Marlowe

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Question:

Today there are almost as many different type of fly-casts as there are flyfishermans. Does it exist a generel Guide or dictionary which describes all these many casts? Maybe there are some nice sites about this? Thanks Gustav Hellstrom, Sweden

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There is really only one basic cast and everything is built of that.  The double haul, for example, is an extension of the traditional backcast, as is Lefty’s back cast etc.  The roll cast is a little different, but the rod tip physics are the same.  The key is to get the basic cast right.  After that, Lefty Kreh has a very good book entitled "Longer Fly Casting"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Today there are almost as many different type of fly-casts as there are flyfishermans. Does it exist a generel Guide or dictionary which describes all these many casts? Maybe there are some nice sites about this? Thanks Gustav Hellstrom, Sweden

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Hellstroem) writes: Today there are almost as many different type of fly-casts as there are flyfishermans. Does it exist a generel Guide or dictionary which describes all these many casts? Maybe there are some nice sites about this?

Hi Gustav, Probably the best book I’ve seen describing and analyzing lots of different fly casts is Joan Wulff’s book "Fly Casting Techniques".  she is very analytical in her approach and gives clear concise instructions. The old Kelson Book "Salmon Flies" (originally published in 1895 and reprinted a lot), although primarily recognized because of its fly tying instructions, has some nice info on various casts with a two handed rod along with illustrations of the techniques.                                 Hope this helps,                                          Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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Question:

I need anything you can dig up, and/or send me on fishing in and around Tucson AZ. I’m going out there on business from 4/22 to 4/29. My address is

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As far as I could tell, there is only one fly shop in Tucson.  That is Tight Lines Fly Fishing, it’s on Grant Road just west of Swan.  I was last there in January on business.  I didn’t get the chance to do any fly fishing around Tucson, but did get the chance to visit the shop.  I think that you’ll have to get out of town about 2 hours before you find any water. Strictly lakes.  You may be able to find some trout.  Check with the shop. I used to live in Tucson and had the most luck at Parker lake (near the border, southeast of Tucson) with spinning gear.  I heard that Pena Blanca Lake was fishing well in January.  It’s almost to Nogales off of I-19.  Good luck.  Kevin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I need anything you can dig up, and/or send me on fishing in and around Tucson AZ. I’m going out there on business from 4/22 to 4/29. My address is

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Question:

I very much doubt you could break an 8lb tippet with a 5wt rod without either seriously damaging the rod or pointing the rod straight at the fish. The secret of all fishing is to use balanced tackle, that way you can use your tackle to it’s maximum without running the risk of damaging it. — Regards Peter Kay (Remove "nospam" to email)  :The guy is full of unmitigated bull hooie.  The tippet is the defining :element.  If you can break the tippet with the rod, and the tippet is

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How tightly do you set your drag?  If you point your rod tip towards the fish and set the drag higher than when fishing with a 4 lb tippet then sure you will definitely apply more pressure.  Your drag setting and how you hold the rod while fighting fish will determine the answer to your question.  My guess is that you’ve got the drag setting at less than 4 lbs (would you dare jiggle a 1/2 gallon carton of milk from the end of your 6 wt rod?).  So the guy at the shop is probably right.

Sorry Mu, You’re wrong, and so is the guy in the shop. Drag has nothing to do with it, the breaking strength of the tippet and how much pressure you can put to the fish as a result of that breaking strength is the question here The size of the rod only matters in regards to the weight of the line when casting and in your desire to keep that rod intact when playing a fish. If you are using 4 lb. tippet on an 8 wt. rod there is no way you can apply as much pressure on the fish than you can with an equivalent length rod in 6 wt. and 8 lb. tippet. The only reason that it would be better for the fish to use a 4 lb. tippet is that the fish will probably break off sooner and recover faster. Any steelhead worth half his salt would destroy a 4 lb. tippet in seconds. If the angler was very skilled he would be able to baby that fish in eventually, but at what price? The fish will be mortally exhausted from a half hour struggle to the beach. Chances of recovery of this fish is poor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!!

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<< I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!! Nope, that’s a carborundrum.  A conundrum is is a kind of Arabian boss.

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You are thinking of a condominium. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I thought a conundrum was what you wore for safe sex!!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  The rod wt does make a difference. If you are fighting a 2lb trout with say 6x tippet you are more likely to land the fish with a 4wt rod then a 6wt rod. The 4wt is more giving at any given drag setting and will absorb the shock of the fishes fight. The more severe the struggle the more a lighter rod helps. I’ve seen newby fishermen (or bass fishermen new to flyfishing) loose lots of fish with a 6wt rod. I give them my 4 wt and they land the fish. So the shock absorption is for both ends of the rod (fish and fisherman’s action.)  So you have to set the drag down for a stiffer rod given the same fish and tippet. Few fish are lost just due to a slow steady pull of a fish where the drag setting only is the consideration, but rather to a fish jerking the line and adding to the pull. I guess said in another way a 2 lb weight is less likely to break a tippet then a 2 lb fish since one is a dynamic force that exceeds a 2lb pull. Sorry Mu, You’re wrong, and so is the guy in the shop. Drag has nothing to do with it, the breaking strength of the tippet and how much pressure you can put to the fish as a result of that breaking strength is the question here The size of the rod only matters in regards to the weight of the line when casting and in your desire to keep that rod intact when playing a fish. If you are using 4 lb. tippet on an 8 wt. rod there is no way you can apply as much pressure on the fish than you can with an equivalent length rod in 6 wt. and 8 lb. tippet. The only reason that it would be better for the fish to use a 4 lb. tippet is that the fish will probably break off sooner and recover faster. Any steelhead worth half his salt would destroy a 4 lb. tippet in seconds. If the angler was very skilled he would be able to baby that fish in eventually, but at what price? The fish will be mortally exhausted from a half hour struggle to the beach. Chances of recovery of this fish is poor.

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I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.   I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. Bob Scott

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To some extent it doesn’t matter, although it depends how good a fisherman you are. The best way to put max pressure on a fish is to point the rod directly at the fish; but then it doesn’t matter what the rod weight is! To put the least pressure on a fish, you hold the rod vertical, at which angle a 15 foot 10 weight only puts about two pound pull on a fish. You can demonstrate this with a spring balance, although this will give a higher reading than expected – remember that the fish can’t exactly dig its heels in. Any angle below 45 degrees begins to put a fish under pressure, and the stiffness of the rod and the efficiency of the reel drag will begin to count. However, if the fish is a long way out, and a deal of line is drowned, then other factors are in play which alter your ability to exert pressure. I have seen a guide stop a bonefish in its tracks using an eight pound tippet simply by pointing the rod directly at the fish. I have seen the same done with a chinook. Mind, it is dull compared to playing them… Andrew Andrew N. Herd Associate Editor, Waterlog Magazine http://www.demon.co.uk/medlarpress/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference.

is a 20 pound sleelhead big enough? or how about a thirty pound plus chinook? Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.

Ten pound tippet is ten pounds breaking strength, with a 6 or an 8 it is still ten pounds. If I put enough pressure on a tippet to break the tippet that is ten pounds, be it with a six or eight that is irrelevant. The big difference is that it is easier to cast the big flies a longer distance. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long.

That’s an invitation to a flame war Bob Scott

Andrew McFarland

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The way that I look at this is that, like Andrew said, ten puonds is ten pounds. One could land a 1500 pound marlin on a 4 wt (heavy leader, naturally) if he had around 2000 yards of backing. Any fish can be landed on any wieght. Just with one rod, the fish might be exhausted and another rod would make the fight last 15 seconds. A six weight is fine. Bryce

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  I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more   pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to   show them the difference.   <SNIP   Bob Scott

YES!  And why the hell one would confuse the issue by forcing the stronger rod to have lighter tippet is beyond me.  Apples to apples.   8wt is stiffer than 6wt.  8wt allows the possibility of putting more pressure on a fish than 6wt.  It is that simple. -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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Ten pound tippet is ten pounds breaking strength, with a 6 or an 8 it is still ten pounds. If I put enough pressure on a tippet to break the tippet that is ten pounds, be it with a six or eight that is irrelevant. I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. That’s an invitation to a flame war Andrew McFarland

Not an invitation to a flame war at all.   Here’s the deal: naturally, the tippet strength is the limiting factor of the TOTAL AMOUNT of pressure you can put on the fish, regardless of rod weight rating.  But it’s not that simple.   The rod is applying pressure to the fish anytime it is flexed against him, whether the fish is moving away or not.  The pressure varies with the amount of flex put in the rod, angle the rod is held, etc.  This pressure comes from the rod’s desire to maintain its original, straight shape.  Since it takes more pressure to bend a similar-length 8-weight rod than a 6-weight rod, to the same arc, the heavier rod exerts more pressure on the fish as it tries to straighten… even when the fish isn’t moving, and regardless of the tippet strength or drag setting.  Follow me?     You’ve got to try it for yourself.   Like I said, take the two sized rods, set the drags the same with a scale, and fight a few big fish.  The heavier rod will whip them quicker.   The relentless pull of a flexed rod really tires the fish.  When the fish runs, the drag pressure dogs him.  But when he’s not running away, the pressure of the rod trying to straighten is what is pulling on him.  A heavier rod pulls harder. Bob Scott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think anyone who actually believes that an 8-weight rod can’t put more pressure on a fish than a 6-weight rod has never caught fish big enough to show them the difference. Take the two rods out striper fishing this spring with a ten-pound tippet on each and you’ll be immediately enlightened.   I can’t believe this thread has gone on so long. Bob Scott    This is sooo true. The fish has to work much harder against an     8 wt rod.   –tony

You all want to pass some of that stuff yer smokin’?  I’ve caught plenty of fish in the size range to be able to tell the difference – Silvers, steelhead, chums.  My six weight Sage can break a fish off on undamaged climax 2x tippet (about 10lb test), if held right on a strong enough fish. My 8 wgt can break heavier tippet, so what.  With 2x tippet, it simply cannot pull harder than the six weight, since both are capable of breaking the line.   This is explained by an obscure branch of science known as physics.   What you all are saying is the equivalent of saying that a pickup can tow more than a bicycle, even though they are both connected to the trailer by 8 lb test.  Replace the connection with a log chain, and you’re correct.  However, log chain is fairly poor in it’s energy transference to the fly.  Tough to tie a clinch knot, as well. In the range of tippets that the fellow is talking about, with the rods he is talking about,  the six weight is fine for steelhead. I had ample opportunity to experiment in this area two years ago when I broke my 8 weight on a salmon, and had to finish the trip catching salmon with the six weight.  After the trip, came back and was fishing sea run cutts.  Hooked a big one, and still had the Alaska strike instinct (rear back hard, pull hard with the line hand).  Popped the fly in one of the biggest cutthroats I’ve ever seen, who entertained me and my buddy with three jumps down stream, fly still in his jaw. 3x tippet, good knots, 6 wgt.  I know whereof I speak… — Andrew Brunette

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The 6wt rod I am referring to is a Sage 690 sp+ that is a  stiff rod, I can put LOTS of pressure on a fish. I have yet to meet a steelie that the rod couldn’t handle, I keep a short line and fight the fish using angles. In other words, I keep the rod in opposite to the direction of movement of the fish, to the side. I find that after watching the other guys up here use their 8wts for steelies they don’t put anywhere near the amount of pressure that I do. they mostly use 6lb tippet, some times going down to 4lb, I never use anything less than 8lb. If that prevents me from catching fish so be it, but if it makes the difference between me catching fish and then over playing them then I will not do that. I have out fished guys using 8wts with 4 lb and even float fishermen. I feel that I can put the coals on just as much with those guys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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 My six weight Sage can break a fish off on undamaged climax 2x tippet (about 10lb test), if held right on a strong enough fish. My 8 wgt can break heavier tippet, so what.  With 2x tippet, it simply cannot pull harder than the six weight, since both are capable of breaking the line.   This is explained by an obscure branch of science known as physics.

…that you obviously have no grasp of. You didn’t read or comprehend my post. And, by the way,  my two-weight can break an undamaged 10lb. tippet, too, if "held right."   You are not breaking that tippet with rod pressure. If your six weight can lift ten pounds, I’ll eat my eight and nine weight rods.  Like the other guy said, go ahead and put a ten-pound weight on the floor, put some heavy tippet on your miracle six-weight, get out your warranty card, and try to lift it up.  I know you won’t try it.   An eight-weight will lift more weight (still not ten pounds!) — apply more pressure — than a six-weight.  Period. Why do you think people use 12-weights to fight big tarpon?  Because they need a 12-weight to cast a lightly-dressed 3/0 fly?   Not. Dan Gracia, why don’t you jump in on this one?  You have a great way of explaining things. Bob Scott

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If your six weight can lift ten pounds, I’ll eat my eight and nine weight rods.  Like the other guy said, go ahead and put a ten-pound weight on the floor, put some heavy tippet on your miracle six-weight, get out your warranty card, and try to lift it up.  I know you won’t try it.   An eight-weight will lift more weight (still not ten pounds!) — apply more pressure — than a six-weight.  Period. Why do you think people use 12-weights to fight big tarpon?  Because they need a 12-weight to cast a lightly-dressed 3/0 fly?   Not.

I think you have all forgotten the original "conondrum" , whether a 6 wt with 8 lb test can apply  an equal amt of pressure as 8wt with 4lb tippet. to compare these two factors we apply logic and search for least common denominator between the two. For our purposes we will settle on the 4lb tippet. While on an equal basis, an 8wt rod will be able to apply more pressure than a 6wt, in this situation, the most amt of pressure the 8wt rod will be able to apply is 4lbs before the leader breaks. Likewise, the 6wt rod with 4lb leader will max out at 4lbs of pressure before the leader breaks.( hopefully we can all agree that a 6wt is capable of breaking 4lb tippet even though it may not be capable of breaking anything higher.) Since the 8wt is limited to 4 lb test, the real question becomes whether or not a 6 wt can apply more than 4lbs of pressure given the chance by using a stronger tippet, say 8lbs. whether it can or not doesn’t matter. the "conondrum" has been answered. Both rods will be able to apply at least 4 lbs of pressure, so in this exact situation, it doesn’t make a difference which setup you use, as both will be able to apply at least the same amt of pressure, so using a 6wt doesn’t put you at any diadvantage compared to the 8wt. Unaccounted factors: 1)No one ever uses their full tippet breaking strength. Applying 4 lbs of pressure to a 4 lb tippet is inviting disaster. 2lbs would be more like it, but we won’t take this into consideration as it will bring up more "conundrums". 2) Whether you can lift a weight with your rod is not a realistic comparison of breaking strength.it doesn’t take into account the speed of the pressure application and water tension which equally apply in real situations.                    

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I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure?

The 6wt with 8lb tippet can put on more pressure. Ligther, more flexable rods protect tippets better. A lighter rod will flex more in the butt but you can still put pressure on the fish. The only reason people say you can’t put pressure on is fear of breaking the rod so size of fish is the question. How big are the steelhead you’re after? If they’re in the 4-10lb range then use the 6wt. If they are in the 15-20lb range, use an 8-9wt. The person using a stiffer, heavier rod with light tippet is putting more risk on the fish. Cheers, Jack

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true?

Andrew, Another point is this discussion is that anyone who would chastise another as to one’s method of fishing, bothers me. Fred Halford and others includes…. As long as it is legal, reasonably sporting, and respects property rights and the rights of others near you, you ought to be able to fish with what works for you……  With a steady pull, one cannot exert 8 pounds of pressure on a tippet with a 9 foot rod….  So I think the way you apply pressure and way you avoid letting the fish rest between runs and pulls has a lot to do with how quickly one can land a fish… For example a fish hooked in the upper lip can be made to raise its head while fighting a very quickly tired…. as compared to one hooked in the rear lower edge of the mandible.  If you have ever accidently hooked a fish in tail, you will know the outter limit of this difference…  Keeping the fish upstream of you will also result in a quicker finish…..  And in very clear water, that is not too fast, and not too deep, and 8 pound tippet may provide many fewer hook-ups…  Lots of side to this issue…. but for someone to say….. only fish the way I advocate…. well, I would chalk that up and move on.. Alan E. Hoover       to quote one of my favorite authors: "Fly fishing is such great fun, it really ought to be done in bed"  John Voelker, aka Robert Traver

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me.

The guy is full of unmitigated bull hooie.  The tippet is the defining element.  If you can break the tippet with the rod, and the tippet is strong enough to be appropriate for the fish, the rod is fine.  And 3x tippet, from a reputable manufacturer, is strong enough for the average steelhead.  If you were expecting to catch 20 lb fish all day, I might sing a different story, but the 8 to 12 lb fish I run into can be brought to the beach in 5 minutes with 8lb test leader, and that seems to let them swim away safely.   I have caught 15 lb steelhead with my six weight, using 3x (=8lb) tippet, and been able to whip the steelhead quickly.  I use 8lb leader for gear fishing with a meat stick, with the same, sporting, results.   I think the average fisherman does not realize how much pressure can be put on a fish with today’s tippet material.   — Andrew Brunette

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How tightly do you set your drag?  If you point your rod tip towards the fish and set the drag higher than when fishing with a 4 lb tippet then sure you will definitely apply more pressure.  Your drag setting and how you hold the rod while fighting fish will determine the answer to your question.  My guess is that you’ve got the drag setting at less than 4 lbs (would you dare jiggle a 1/2 gallon carton of milk from the end of your 6 wt rod?).  So the guy at the shop is probably right.  Mu Young Lee         Ann Arbor, MI  o             oooo                          o   o   o o   o o o  o – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true? Andrew

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Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true?

Hi Andrew, Like many answers, this one is "it all depends".   Obvoiusly 4 pound test line (presuming it is rated accurately) will break before 8 lb test.  But the question is, "how much of that 8lb. test capacity are you really using?" The answer is "not nearly as much as you think your are." If you hook up your 6 wt. to a Chatillon scale and start bending the heck out of it, you will find it very hard to exert more than 5 lbs. of steady pressure (don’t break your rod trying to get that little bit more!).  Quick jerks will exceed it but not steady pressure which is what you’re using when you’re fighting fish.  An 8 wt. rod is much more capable of exerting that amount of steady pressure, though 8lbs of steady pressure will bend most 8 wt rods well into the butt.  If you both used 8 lb. tippet then I’d say the 8wt. would be able to apply more of the tippet’s capacity more consistently than the 6wt. So, depending on how you fight the fish, the 8wt. would certainly be more capable of applying constant pressure at 4 lbs. than the 6 wt.  An 8wt will however break 4lb. test pretty consistently so it requires a very good touch. If the comparison had been a 6wt. with 8lb. test vs an 8wt. with 6 lb. test, then I’d say the 8 wt would do the better job because it would be able to constantly use more of the tippets capacity than the 6wt. By changing the rod angle, you can change the amount of pressure on the fish. if you keep your rod tip up and the butt of the rod between 45 and 60 degrees, you get a maximum amount of shock absorption and comparatively little pressure on the fish. However, if you wind or strip in line until your rod angle is more like 30 degrees, anchor the line against the handle or reel, and then pull up and off to the side, you exert easily two to three times as much pressure.  You are takin the tip of the rod out of the fight by doing this and using the butt of the rod to supply the lifting power. This is a good technique to use once you’ve got a fish beaten.  It can break you off quickly if the fish is too fresh. Try this with a friend sometime.  One hold the rod and the other hold the end of the line.  Pull with both methods.  The one bending the rod will think he is exerting huge amounts of pressure when he is not.  As soon as the rod tip drops and then pulls, the difference is obvious.                    Hope this helps,                            Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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You might want to contact the real experts at a place called G. Loomis.   They have the tech. knowledge to give you the facts. try http://www.gloomis.com  Regards,  Capt. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastized for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told thet I shold be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, becauseI have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutly no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statment on his part true? Andrew

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All, I have a question for all of you. I was in the local flyshop and was chastised for using a six weight for steelhed. I was told that I should be using at least an 8 wt, the reason being that you can put more pressure on the fish. My question is this, if I use a 6wt with 8lb tippet and this other guy uses an 8wt with 4 lb tippet, who puts on more pressure? I said me, because have a stronger tippet that I can really put the coals on with. He said no, he could apply more pressure because of the heavier rod. This make absolutely no sense to me. Casting, flies, wind considerations aside, is the above statement on his part true? Andrew

I agree with you with your specific example, I think you can put more pressure on a fish with a 6 wgt using an 8 lb tippet than you could with an 8 wgt using a 4 lb tippet.  However, with a 6 or 8 weight rod both using for example an eight pound tippet, you could put more pressure on a fish with an 8 weight as a rule.  Rod lengthn also figures in on this.  You can put more pressure on a fish with a longer rod in the same line class.  Action also plays into this.  A fast rod can provide more pressure, but a softer rod is more forgiving and break offs are less likely.  Obviously an angler’s skill is another factor. I think you use what works well for you just as long as the fish you catch (assuming you are releasing them) are landed in a short enough time that the fish will survive releasing.  If you follow the reasoning of the guy in the shop, a 10 weight would be better, a 12 better still.  Bet he doesn’t fish a 12. Willi

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Question:

I will be in Dayton Ohio this summer and wonder if there is any flyfishing to be had.  I am thinking smallies more than trout but I am not particularly picky.  Any hatches to match during summer (such as white fly) ?  Any good streams and access points ? Flyshops in the area ? Any info greatly appreciated, tight lines, Mark

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Mark- The StillWater just NW of Dayton has (I am told) great smallies.  The Mad, which is N/NE of Dayton has Trout but the bad spring has kept take light. Sorry I don’t have any details, I’m just getting started w/this Fly stuff. Good luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be in Dayton Ohio this summer and wonder if there is any flyfishing to be had.  I am thinking smallies more than trout but I am not particularly picky.  Any hatches to match during summer (such as white fly) ?  Any good streams and access points ? Flyshops in the area ? Any info greatly appreciated, tight lines, Mark

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