Question:
Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.
of course, you don’t live in washington state and have to watch the local s(news)…. this is all we’ve been hearing about and what we’ll be hearing about til the next disaster <G. i’m glad they’re back…. but i’d like to see the media give them a little bit of a break so they can have some real private time with their families and loved ones. chris
Response:
Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military. I think I understand your disgust with the overdramatization in which military people attribute to their jobs….I did a 6 year stint in the Navy myself, and enjoyed it, but I find that too often fellow vets are just too quick to point out the fact that they served. It’s almost like they’re rubbing it in others’ faces. I have followed the plight of the aircrew held in China with some interest. I feel that the government/military is making way too big a deal of this, for publicity’s sake, than should be. All that said…I do respect the simple fact that being hel captive in a foreign communist country, no matter what the accomodations (in this case very plush) and treatment, would be a scary and dangerous situation to be in (history tells us this). For that, sure, let’s have a parade and welcome these folks home (especially if they were able to destroy any sensitive equipment on that plane before it went down).
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave
Response:
Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam?
Uhh, Mark, Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames. Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"
Response:
Ahhh…my apologies for my mistaken left-click, especially to Dave.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? Uhh, Mark, Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames. Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"
Response:
Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military.
Wow, whatever you are smokin is worth every damn nickel you paid! Wolfgang and doubtless dave would love to share it :)
Response:
… This is a welcome home for a group of Americans …
And much ado about nothing in my book. … He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps. Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)
He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Ken, How ’bout teaching English and math to kids inter-battle zone in Bosnia, where there is a cleared path in the minefield to get to the old warehouse to teach? How ’bout doing this for free? How ’bout whole National Guard units that volunteer as a group to drop their jobs and run off to Central America to spend their days humpin sacks of flour to help hurricane victims? How ’bout spending four nights a week and all day Saturday teaching English, math and biology to Korean orphans who are ostracized because they don’t have parents? The tutors won’t help, the city won’t help, their own teachers won’t help. Again, done free, for a year, gratis. Person’s boss didn’t even know about it. These are anecdotal. They are all true. They are all military members. The U.S. military is second only to firefighters in time spent doing volunteer work. In a lot of towns, those firefighters are military. You profess to understand the military. I won’t gainsay that. Why do you join an organization of computer proffesionals? Could it be that you identify with those who share your understanding of nibbles and bytes? We, those former military members, identify with the sacrifices that those currently in the military endure. The funny thing about military folks is that they often blend in with the scenery. The are members of ACM, ROFF, but they still identify with their common core of experience in the military. MSgt Ret is alphabet soup. However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. You, as computer professional, should understand that the U.S. military is not a necessary evil. It is also not a sacred cow. It is not that one-dimensional. However, to trivialize 2.6 million folks to the status of necessary evil is, in and of itself, pretty one dimensional. It is a group of folks as important as your local fire and police department. Wherever they go, they try to do some good. It’s their nature. They, as a group, will all tell you that they abhor the combat side of their jobs, because, to them, if they have to fight, they’ve failed at peace keeping. I tell you what, take a group of military folks and ask them to raise their hands if they’ve ever fired a weapon in combat. Very few hands. Now ask them if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last 2 months. Now ask your computer professional friends if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last two months. Hey, it takes a village. Some of us, i.e. the military have lived in that village all our lives, where others are wandering around screaming that some one should build them one. Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
… These are anecdotal. They are all true. They are all military members.
And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. … MSgt Ret is alphabet soup. However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.
include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Ken, All’s I’m trying to say is that military members are a group of human beings, like educators, like computer professionals. That’s not chest thumping. As you said, there are good and bad in every group. I don’t trivialize any group of people. To do so is to trivialize all. To denigrate the work of a group of folks because they are in the military is very small minded. Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military. And, oh, by the way, in many countries, the military is a highly respected profession. Unfortunately, it is mostly in those industrialized nations that have the freedom and wherewithal to be able to afford the time and the money to sit at computers or fly fish. Wonder if there is a connection there? Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it. Now thats chest thumping. I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective. Frank
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … These are anecdotal. They are all true. They are all military members. And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. … MSgt Ret is alphabet soup. However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
… I don’t trivialize any group of people.
To call the military a necessary evil is not to trivialize it, by definition necessary is not trivial. Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military.
Exactly the point, Frank. To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism. … Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it. Now thats chest thumping. I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.
Thump away, my friend, but I think my perspective is just fine and the chances of you changing it are nil. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Ken Fortenberry writes: To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism.
If you saw film of previous flights by Chicoms harassing *legal* flights, you would ulnderstand why the Chicom died. He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have. No jingoism or chauvinism involved. Poor judgement, poor driving skills, lack of common sense, and unnecessary aggression caused his death, and damn near cause the death of *our* aircremen. As far as this not belonging on roff: well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents? Like "native American" crap and "squaw" crap and other politically correct crap. As long as the religious and patriotic intolerant Fortenberry says so, it must be so! Bullshit! See my hat. And, MY brother was in the marines too. What does *that* have to do with anything? Dave
Response:
Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. They were being held by a foreign power. They got to survive and come home. The West Sound is very Navy. People here care a lot about these things. So they threw a big Welcome home party. The Pacific is a big Ocean – 6 hours from the HI, so when they were 40 minutes out I posted that. Now maybe the desire to celebrate this small victory locally is partly to counter the many recent unfortunate happenings in WA like the Earthquake, the loss of a large fishing crew in the Bering sea last week, Boeing, etc etc. But I think people were genuine in their appreciation for these young people. As for the politics of it – you know that my politics are relatively progressive for this forum. No one would ever mistake me for a conservative. But you also know that I save my strongest disdain for ideology and ideologues right and left. And all know that I loath Bush, still support McCain, think Rumsfeld is dangerous, and am thankful that Powell is there to moderate things, and because of his caution borne of his combat experience. You feeling anti-war? Got anything to say about the Israeli Army abuse of Arab civilians? How about dual citizenship "Americans" called up as IDF reservists for a few weeks of fun in Gaza? Feel like a crusade? I understand there is a boatload of child slaves missing off Benin. Or maybe a little looksee at the status of foreign household domestics in Chambama might be needed. Teaching reading in the inner city? You do not know that probably the largest inner city volunteer tutoring programs are operated by the military. Most ships have such programs. The military is also far ahead of the rest of the country on affirmative action, family involvement and responsibility in the schools, family leave and support, universal medical coverage, equal opportunity, environmental stewardship and a few others. Like my rightwing nemesis, you assume too much. My point being that pissing on a Welcome Home party for some GIs in WA, doesn’t fulfill the monthly dues assignment for even our most peripatetic Naderite. Lighten up. You get the last word if you want it. Dave
Response:
Ken, Is your life a piece of shit? I don’t believe it is. Do you? I believe you are a precious and utterly unique thing, and so am I, along with everybody else. Bottom line: My personal understanding is that people died so I could sit here at this keyboard and type whatever I want. I am grateful for those who have died, and to those who put themselves at risk for this country. I’m happy to see these kids come home and proud of the way they handled their situation. If that’s chest thumping, I’m going to thump my chest every chance I get. You can call it unseemly, call it any fucking thing you want. But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable. LR
Response:
… He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.
He was no doubt under orders to harass the spy plane just as an American "hotdog" would be under orders to harass a Chinese spy plane in international waters off the coast of California. I doubt you’d be so cavalier about the death of an American aviator. As far as this not belonging on roff: well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?
I don’t pick contents, but if I see something that makes this place an uncomfortable place for me or for others who want to discuss flyfishing I’ll either ignore it or bitch about it as I see fit. I suggest you do the same. … And, MY brother was in the marines too. What does *that* have to do with anything?
Only that I’m not totally unsympathetic to career military. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. …
No big deal, I’m just tired of all the hoop-de-la and the bloodlust was just starting to taper off on ROFF when you had to go and bring the damn thing up again. And believe it or not, not every flyfisherman in the world gives a flying fuck about the American Navy. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
… But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable.
Worship the military if that’s your wont, but calling folks dishonorable is no way find a fishing partner. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Take it any way you want. I didn’t call you dishonorable, but your behavior is. Enough dishonorable behavior and I may eventually judge you as dishonorable, but it’ll take a long time for me to feel that way about you. Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.
Response:
… Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.
No problem, Lennie. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken, According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. You are totally missing the point. This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield. Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing? Because they are military, should we not welcome them home? It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor. Their job? Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act. If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war. Their job? Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war. I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home. I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military. Their IQs average in the top 10 percent. It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat. Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job. The washout rate is as high as 60%. It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness." They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands. 99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror. For this they make about $20,000 a year. I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8. One of my coworkers was his roommate. We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way. We are relieved that they’ve returned home. We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving. Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama." He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps. Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)
Well said Frank, I think only those of us who have known the military as "family" for a goodly portion of our lives can really appreciate what the Whidbey Island folks felt today, it is a special bond that is still with me 31 yrs after retirement from the USAF. I also believe that *most* Americans celebrate with us. Frank Church, TSgt, USAF (Ret)
Response:
Ken, According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. You are totally missing the point. This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield. Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing? Because they are military, should we not welcome them home? It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor. Their job? Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act. If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy. Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war. Their job? Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war. I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home. I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military. Their IQs average in the top 10 percent. It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat. Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job. The washout rate is as high as 60%. It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness." They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands. 99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror. For this they make about $20,000 a year. I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8. One of my coworkers was his roommate. We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way. We are relieved that they’ve returned home. We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving. Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama." He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps. Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.
I can be insufferable without any help whatsoever from the United States Navy, thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed the TV show, Louie, now let’s hip-hip, hup-hup and go kill some Commies for the Gipper. Sheesh, take this crap somewhere where the coarser elements of our society gather to wallow in their ignorance, it has no place on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. dave
Response:
They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS.
You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry
Response:
Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama.
After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave
Response:
Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes. God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave
AMEN! — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022