Question:

I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

That information is depicted graphically on the aviation charts, and temporary restrictions are published in the NOTAMS (notices to airmen). Best regards, Rob Housman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

Check with the manageing agency for the area you want to fly into.  The BLM, Forest Service, etc.  These governmental agencies set the regs for use within their holdings.  I don’t think the FAA has an interest in your question. To partially answer though, no motorized vehicles or even bicycles are allowed in designated USFS wilderness areas.  This would include aircraft landing or taking off.  Some refuges are restricted, some aren’t, an example being some located in Alaska.  Anyway, for specific restrictions, check with the managment.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this isn’t the right group to post this on, but I’m too impatient to go through the hassle of subscribing to another newsgroup just for one (for now) question.  And a lot of you do regreational flying, so might be more familiar with this issue. I have read FAR 73 here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr73_00.html and cannot find where it describes, specifies, or even implies what sorts of areas are restricted or prohibited.  Am I missing something? This came up in a discussion at work on fishing remote lakes.  The fisherman in question thinks it’s illegal to fly in to certain remote lakes, say in designated wilderness areas, wildlife refuges, National parks, etc.  I think he’s right, but where can I see what specifically is allowed, and what areas specifically are restricted or prohibited? David

Response:

Question:

I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive?  I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

    This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive?  I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

14

Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham.

-snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

    I did not realize it would upset you.  You can be certain I won’t send you a private e-mail again.  I promise.  But you do not have any right whatsoever to show such agression to me about it.  If you wish to protect your privacy then don’t include your e-mail address.  It is a simple matter to remove it.     My original post was intended to be helpful and interesting, nothing more.  It arose from the presence of the very disagreable post concerning cr**lty to animals.  I feared that a cross-posted item like that would harm the "nice" (I was sure fooled) atmosphere I found here.     You go ahead and be "pissed" at me.  But if you don’t want to recieve e-mails again in future it is your responsibility to remove your e-mail something.     Don’t worry.  I have removed you from my contacts list as I reserve that for friends.  And since I intend to forget about you, it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damm if you are "pissed" at me. Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive? I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

Dear Peter… I have been a member of this ng for a very long time.  I don’t post as frequently as I’d like so I will say this to you… I was not threatening you, I told you not to do it again, which is not a threat, it is a request. If you ask other members of this ng about private postings that are uninvited I’m sure you will get as much information as you need to know, it’s a very tricky proposition here.  It is very scary for people to get unsolicited private email from people they do not know, especially when it appears to be a flame. Check it out… As for my email address… it has always been used on this ng and will continue to be used on this ng.  For you to tell me not to use it is absurd and I will NOT remove it, is that clear?  You have an obligation on this ng to check out whether or not a person will accept private emails before you send one. And BTW Itchy is one of my insiders, it’s not a joke as you make it out to be and I resent it.  My name is 14, a name, not a number. As for the animal post, I was not and will not be a part of that thread so I don’t know the history of it since I didn’t read it. 14 who is trying to not lose her temper because you are an new comer to the group. PS I never asked to be on your contact list!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I did not realize it would upset you.  You can be certain I won’t send you a private e-mail again.  I promise.  But you do not have any right whatsoever to show such agression to me about it.  If you wish to protect your privacy then don’t include your e-mail address.  It is a simple matter to remove it.     My original post was intended to be helpful and interesting, nothing more.  It arose from the presence of the very disagreable post concerning cr**lty to animals.  I feared that a cross-posted item like that would harm the "nice" (I was sure fooled) atmosphere I found here.     You go ahead and be "pissed" at me.  But if you don’t want to recieve e-mails again in future it is your responsibility to remove your e-mail something.     Don’t worry.  I have removed you from my contacts list as I reserve that for friends.  And since I intend to forget about you, it doesn’t matter a tinker’s damm if you are "pissed" at me. Peter I have no idea of your motives BUT one thing I do know, DO NOT EVER SEND ME a private email again. 14 who was just wonder what your original post was meant to convey and who is now pissed that you sent me a private post.     This is confusing.  Did you believe me to have a nepharious motive? I don’t know what your motive is since I don’t know you.  I don’t believe you know me.  Let’s keep it that way shall we? 14 Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. -snipped to save bandwidth-

Response:

Hi all,     This posting was kindly provided to me by Lynda Cunningham. What is a troll? The term "troll" has several meanings on usenet. You have the Real Life[tm] meanings as given to us by Merriam Webster: troll (trol) v. 1.To fish for by running a baited line behind a slowly moving boat n 1. A creature of Scandinavian folklore variously portrayed as a dwarf or giant living in caves or under bridges. And then there’s the usenet meanings – which are actually rather similar to those above. In the case of the verb, the definition is close – with one small twist; _you_ are the thing that someone is trying to catch – and catch you they will if you aren’t wary. For bait, the troll will often take the form of a derogatory post – one that is designed to incite as much reaction as possible. For each person who responds, the poster will consider that person "caught". The troll is considered to have been a complete success if it disrupts the normal traffic on a newsgroup. In extreme cases, trolls are posted by groups of people and crossposted to unrelated newsgroups in an attempt to destroy those groups by flooding them with flames and off-topic ranting. Then, there is the noun, which again is nearly dead on, but this type of troll has an e-mail account, a global bridge to hide under, and a fishing pole to match – beware, for the hills are full of ‘em. How can I spot a troll? Most trolls take the form of blanket statements designed solely to generate as many irate responses as possible. Posts with subject lines such as: "Macs suck Worse than Amiga’s!" or "Mac Users are pathetic losers" Are most likely trolls. Also, trolls love to generate mayhem by crossposting derogatory statements to two rival groups and watching the sparks fly as the groups flame each other into oblivion. That being the case, it is usually a good idea to think _very_ long and hard before responding to anything that is crossposted. If you must reply to a crossposted message – edit the header to only include one newsgroup; otherwise, take it to e-mail – or risk being branded a weenie for life. Trolls can also pop up in existing threads. These are usually the most distressing as they are unsuspected. Suddenly, you are confronted with someone you believe to be a mac user , who has taken a ridiculous position which just pisses you off from here to hades.  Remember, if you find yourself thinking, "I can’t believe this guy", it’s a good chance that the post is a troll. You’ll know for sure if the same person is consistently stupid and infuriating throughout the majority of his posts to the newsgroup. Are trolls made by real people? Nope. Trolls are made by nasty little people who crave far more attention than they deserve. Most of them are inadequate losers with absolutely_no_lives_what_so_ever! Remember that, a troll, by virtue of their lack of a life, will always have more time on his hands than you – it’s part of the inhuman nature of the beast. Also, be advised that trolls will also band together. There is a group of people known as alt.syntax.tactical who make it their life’s work to destroy as many groups as they can. They consider a group destroyed when more than three quarters of the threads on a group have been started by them; and the group is unusable for normal traffic. Why do trolls troll? Ah, good question. While there is no way of knowing why all trolls troll, there are some good theories. The general concensus is that the troll is trying to build up a flaccid ego; the troll sees himself as superior to anyone who responds to the bait. The worst thing you can do, in the eyes of the troll, is not respond at all – to absolutely ignore them. By not reacting, you have completely defeated their purpose in life. In other words, the troll sees his self-worth in how much of a reaction he can inspire – ignore him, and you confirm his worthlessness. It’s your best weapon. What’s the best way to deal with a troll? Contrary to most people’s natural instincts, the best tactic is to do absolutely nothing. In other words, _DO_NOT_ respond to a troll. To do so is to play entirely into the trolls hands. I cannot stress this enough. If left alone, the troll will usually get bored and go away – leaving many happy Mac Users to ride off into the sunset doing various backwards and forwards victory dances. Read that last paragraph carefully. It is of the highest importance if we are to keep trolls at bay. So, remember, a troll’s greatest joy is to piss _YOU_ off. Unless you deny him what he wants, he will stay around for more – gleefully feasting off your frustration, anger, indignation and vain attempts to reason with him. If you look right through him like everyone else in his miserable stinking life has, then he will usually slither back into his cave and/or find his prey elsewhere. I can flame with the best of ‘em – shouldn’t I just drive them off? Unfortuantely, no. The above assumption is based on the premise that trolls are actually like real people. They are not; they thrive off of negative input. Input in any form makes them feel more important and will only cause them to stay. Sure, you may be able to successfully spank a troll here or there if you are good – and we mean DAMN good. Flaming is an art that many, many, try, few master, and nearly all think they are good at. As a rule, DON’T flame ‘em, it does NOT work and will only prolong the agony for everybody else. But they make me so mad I want to scream – can I? By all means no! If you must scream, do so at your neighbors cat or the PC at work. It will be much more effective than screaming at the troll. If you absolutely must respond due to some personal neurological disorder, please do so in email and not on the group. Admitedly screaming at the troll via e-mail isn’t always possible because of certian troll tactics, but it is your only recourse. To respond to the troll on the newsgroup will only invite alt.mac members to flame you and b*at you about the head, – and not necessarily in that order. The troll won’t go away – there must be *something* I can do? YES! Some trolls just don’t know when to give up. These can be referred to as "klingons" – as they keep "clinging on" to the notion that their continued presence his going to eventually make somebody snap. You have several lines of defense at your disposal. The first, and possibly the best, thing that you can do is learn how to use a k*llfile. A k*llfile is a list of people and places that you want your newsbrowser to ignore. Thus, if you add the troll to your k*llfile, you’ll barely know they exist. It’s like magic (amazing, eh?). The second major thing you can do is complain to their postmaster. The postmaster is the person who has the job of making sure that everything runs smoothly at a given news/internet provider. Since a postmaster is often overworked, the last thing he wants to deal with is some weenie on his site causing all kinds of problems. Thus, the only way to fix the problem is to get rid of the source. That’s right, enough complaints to the postmaster, and the nasty little trolls are gone – tossed onto the streets and looking for another cave to be miserable in. -BUT- and this is a big but, if the troll is using a forged account, your complaints either won’t mean a thing, or will get someone else (other than the troll) in hot water.  So, be careful and don’t do try it unless you know what you’re doing. Okay, then how do I contact a postmaster? really pissed you off for the last time and you feel it’s time to complain. To complain to his postmaster you would end it to: this, though, is many trolls use fake addresses or anon. remailers; so getting the trolls real address is impossible. If the address is fake (rather than a remailer), checking the header can often give you the originating site Also, a good letter to a postmaster should start with a brief and polite comment, saying that the troll in question is causing trouble on the newsgroup with his off-topic rantings. Most postmasters will not yank accounts just for offensive behaviour (thank goodness, since anything you say has the potential to offend -someone-); but they will yank accounts for persistent off-topic posting. Lastly, the letter should then include the -entire- text of the offensive post, WITH HEADERS INTACT. Do not edit. But, I want to rip the troll’s throat out so hard it makes his whole family hurt for years – what else is there that I can do? Well, while I don’t officially advocate it, you _can_ engage in "A Slight Case of Overbombing." That is: The Mail Bomb- a nasty weapon usually reserved for the nastiest of trolls and is best when done by many people working in concert with one another. Mailbombs _can_ blow up in your face, even if they are successful. Once a "person’s" mailbox is full, all mail sent is often reflected back at the sender. There are also other nastinesses that can transpire, but they are beyond the scope of this. What’s a flame? Well, the following is taken from the EFF’s Guide to the Internet, v.2.21 -it seems to sum it up the best: "A flame is a particularly nasty, personal attack on somebody for something he or she has written. Periodically, an exchange of flames erupts into a flame war that begins to take up all the space in a given newsgroup (and sometimes several; flamers like cross-posting to let the world know how they feel). These can go on for weeks (sometimes they go on for years, in which case they become "holy wars," [-usually on such groundbreaking topics as the relative merits of Macintoshes vs. IBMs]. Often, just when they’re dying down, somebody new to the flame war reads all the messages, gets upset and issues an urgent plea that the flame war be taken to e-mail so everybody else can get back to whatever the … read more »

Response:

I can’t make it okay for you, I’m sorry.  The only thing that has upset me is the private post, can you understand?  I don’t know Peter, he may be a really great guy, but I won’t accept the fact that he posted me privately, unsolicited.  That’s my only point in all this. Hope you are ok. 14

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hopw we can stop now we like peter adn eveybody so make it ok ok?

Response:

hopw we can stop now we like peter adn eveybody so make it ok ok?

Response:

Question:

George, You seem to be the Rofiian expert here so……. Could you tell me where I would be able to purchase balde eagle feathers? I have an idea for a great dry fly pattern that would require these beauties….. Thanks Georgie……. Robert

Response:

George, You seem to be the Rofiian expert here so……. Could you tell me where I would be able to purchase balde eagle feathers? I have an idea for a great dry fly pattern that would require these beauties….. Thanks Georgie……. Robert

Ye Olde lil’ wayno’s?

Response:

I pondered this post a bit. Now we have plenty of baldies around so if you want a feather or two all you have to do is come down here, shiney up a tree where there is a nest, wait for the bird, grab a few and come back down. That’s the easy part. The hard part is explaining to a wildlife dude holding a smoke pole in your geezer that what you have is a turkey feather and all those scratches you have you got from a thistle while you picked up the feather. Would you like me to bring you anything on visitors day?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, You seem to be the Rofiian expert here so……. Could you tell me where I would be able to purchase balde eagle feathers? I have an idea for a great dry fly pattern that would require these beauties….. Thanks Georgie……. Robert

Response:

Vasoline?  Soap on a rope?  Pictures of Wayno naked?      Frank Would you like me to bring you anything on visitors day?

Response:

George, You seem to be the Rofiian expert here so……. Could you tell me where I would be able to purchase balde eagle feathers? I have an idea for a great dry fly pattern that would require these beauties….. Thanks Georgie……. Robert

You can get one loaned to you by an American Indian.  How’s that for a legal answer and it happens to be a fact. — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Yes, I know its fact George….just having a little fun…… (some snippage) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, You seem to be the Rofiian expert here so……. Thanks Georgie……. Robert You can get one loaned to you by an American Indian.  How’s that for a legal answer and it happens to be a fact.

Response:

Question…the bald eagle…or ‘iggle’ as the guide at the denver show called them…is no longer on the endagered or even threatened species list…correct ? — Halfordian Golfer .

Response:

Question…the bald eagle…or ‘iggle’ as the guide at the denver show called them…is no longer on the endagered or even threatened species list…correct ?

According to http://endangered.fws.gov/ they are classified as "threatened, proposed de-listing", but they are still on the list. — Charlie…

Response:

Question…the bald eagle…or ‘iggle’ as the guide at the denver show called them…is no longer on the endagered or even threatened species list…correct ? According to http://endangered.fws.gov/ they are classified as "threatened, proposed de-listing", but they are still on the list.

And I don’t think you’d be able to possess the feathers or hunt them regardless of their status on that list.  IIRC, the possession, hunting, etc. would still be controlled as are other "birds of prey" like hawks, and carrion-eating birds like vultures, would they not? TC, R

Response:

RDean writes: And I don’t think you’d be able to possess the feathers or hunt them regardless of their status on that list.  IIRC, the possession, hunting, etc. would still be controlled as are other "birds of prey" like hawks, and carrion-eating birds like vultures, would they not?

Time for a grandson story: Jeff and I were in Labrador in July of ‘98.  The guide pointed out the remains of a bald eagle laying on a sandy beach just above the area we were fishing. Jeff walked back and took all of the wing bones from  the skeleton.  When he showed them to me after dinner that night, I told him that I though possession of them was illegal.  I checked with the guide and he confirmed my suspicions. The next day Jeff asked if we could stop by the sandy beach.  When we did, he approached the eagle’s remains and very carefully placed each bone in the position he had found it.  It took him several minutes to complete his task. He was very solemn when he returned to face us.  He saw that I was near tears witnessing this tender moment of his.  He took his fly rod from me, smiled and said, "C’mon, Poppop.  Let’s catch some biggggg brookies."  We did.  <g Dave LaCourse, aka Pop Pop

Response:

I have a friend who has a few, but you better belong to the same type of tribe he does or else it gets costly.  Last I talked to him (3 months) they were still controled with a heavy fine if you weren’t Native American. Lou

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Question…the bald eagle…or ‘iggle’ as the guide at the denver show called them…is no longer on the endagered or even threatened species list…correct ? According to http://endangered.fws.gov/ they are classified as "threatened, proposed de-listing", but they are still on the list. And I don’t think you’d be able to possess the feathers or hunt them regardless of their status on that list.  IIRC, the possession, hunting, etc. would still be controlled as are other "birds of prey" like hawks, and carrion-eating birds like vultures, would they not? TC,

I heard tell some folks call bald turkeys vultures, ifn thats so there goes next thanksgiven turkey, guess this next year itl be storebought. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – R

Response:

I’m in awe of the birds of prey… *Why* are they treated differently than non bop’s ? Not a rhetorical question. Everything lives somewhere on the food chain…right ?

Response:

Tim Walker writes: I’m in awe of the birds of prey… *Why* are they treated differently than non bop’s ? Not a rhetorical question. Everything lives somewhere on the food chain…right ?

I think their treatment is the result of their resurgence.  For years there were no BOPs around because of ddt usage and other pollutions.  Today we have red tail hawks nesting on our land, and goshawks have also been spotted nearby.  After a recent snow storm, when the snow was still fresh and beautiful, a red tail swooped down the forested hill behind the house and swooped up a feeding bluejay.  There was a shadow, then an explosion of feathers as it flew off with the jay.  The impact area looked like a bomb crater with  many of the jay’s feathers spread out from "ground zero".   Dave L.

Response:

I’m in awe of the birds of prey… *Why* are they treated differently than non bop’s ? Not a rhetorical question. Everything lives somewhere on the food chain…right ?

well, i look around my neck of the woods at birds that seem abundant and cannot be killed (seagulls, bald eagles, turkey vultures, etc.) and i wonder how bad things would smell and how much extra garbage would be laying around without all these birds (and other animals) around to eat all of the dead animals and edible garbage… something to think about. cb

Response:

I have a friend who has a few, but you better belong to the same type of tribe he does or else it gets costly.  Last I talked to him (3 months) they were still controled with a heavy fine if you weren’t Native American.

My brother-in-law got one for his high school graduation last year. I’ll have to ask him if he knows the current rules.      - Ken

Response:

If you look in our local phonebook yellow pages under Native American, it says "see Indian". I just thought that was interesting. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend who has a few, but you better belong to the same type of tribe he does or else it gets costly.  Last I talked to him (3 months) they were still controled with a heavy fine if you weren’t Native American. My brother-in-law got one for his high school graduation last year. I’ll have to ask him if he knows the current rules.      - Ken

Response:

In Montana, you cannot possess any feather fron any raptor unless you hold a valid and current falconers license (Native Americans excepted). Having one "loaned" to you by a Native American doesn’t count (at least not here). — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, You seem to be the Rofiian expert here so……. Could you tell me where I would be able to purchase balde eagle feathers? I have an idea for a great dry fly pattern that would require these beauties….. Thanks Georgie……. Robert You can get one loaned to you by an American Indian.  How’s that for a legal answer and it happens to be a fact. — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

I’m in awe of the birds of prey… *Why* are they treated differently than non bop’s ? Not a rhetorical question. Everything lives somewhere on the food chain…right ? well, i look around my neck of the woods at birds that seem abundant and cannot be killed (seagulls, bald eagles, turkey vultures, etc.) and i wonder how bad things would smell and how much extra garbage would be laying around without all these birds (and other animals) around to eat all of the dead animals and edible garbage… something to think about.

Same could be said of rats too.  They eat all sorts of garbage!  :-) However,  I’ll keep shooting the longtail every chance I get.

Response:

I’m in awe of the birds of prey… *Why* are they treated differently than non bop’s ? Not a rhetorical question. Everything lives somewhere on the food chain…right ?

I think that those creatures lower down in the food chain can recover from dire times a lot easier than those higher up.  An easy way to illustrate this is to compare the breeding rates of lower down food chain species like rats and mice with the breeding rates of the predators.  I saw a program that informed of the sheer breeding power of the brown rat.  One pair of rats can create thousands or even hundreds of thousands of rats in one year; the rats are phenomenal multipliers.  I suppose that the food chains are like the Chinese Triad,  a wide and stable base to support the diminushing by layer orders above.  If the upper layers are removed,  then the lower orders become erratic and quite unstable. The top level predators are the product of the genetic refinery  and represent the cutting edge of evolution  (e.g. bats, dolphins,  (humans) and allsorts of others).  Whilst all levels are as important as each other in maintaining the appropriate balance,  the top level predators  are possibly more affected on a  numerical basis.  i.e.  breeding rates.

Response:

orders become erratic and quite unstable.

This is some sort of Republican Party code isn’t it?  <g The top level predators are the product of the genetic refinery  and represent the cutting edge of evolution  (e.g. bats, dolphins,  (humans) and all sorts of others)….

This idea that there is "progress" in evolution is a common fallacy.  A good book on this subject is "The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design," by Richard Dawkins. JR

Response:

This idea that there is "progress" in evolution is a common fallacy.  A good book on this subject is "The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design," by Richard Dawkins.

Actually, the notion that there is no "progress" in evolution a cause championed most famously by Stephen J. Gould, who happens to be Dawkins’ intellectual enemy. Their feud goes way back, and I think it’s fair to say that they detest each other. I once asked Dawkins’  what he thought about a paper by Gould and Lewontin (The spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian paradigm: A critique of the adaptationist programme. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, B205:581-598) that bears on exactly this issue. He (Dawkins) raved for at least ten minutes about how stupid and misguided the paper is. Dawkins’ own views on the subject are more accurately summarized in the book "Climbing Mount Improbable," which definitely gives the impression that there is "progress" of a sort in evolution (i.e., climbing higher on the Mount Improbable). My own opinion is that if there weren’t progress in evolution we’d still be blue-green algae, or worse. The problem is that "progress" is a subjective concept. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Jeff and I were in Labrador in July of ‘98.  The guide pointed out the remains of a bald eagle laying on a sandy beach just above the area we were fishing. Jeff walked back and took all of the wing bones from  the skeleton.  When he showed them to me after dinner that night, I told him that I though possession of them was illegal.  I checked with the guide and he confirmed my suspicions. The next day Jeff asked if we could stop by the sandy beach.  When we did, he approached the eagle’s remains and very carefully placed each bone in the position he had found it.  It took him several minutes to complete his task. He was very solemn when he returned to face us.  He saw that I was near tears witnessing this tender moment of his.  He took his fly rod from me, smiled and said, "C’mon, Poppop.  Let’s catch some biggggg brookies."  We did.  

Thanks Dave, These personal anecdotes are my favorite posts. Willi

Response:

You’re right that definitions of progressive evolution differ.  The disagreement between Dawkins and Gould on this matter is in fact is pretty much a difference in definitions.  Dawkins believes that in order to deny progress in evolution, Gould insists on a human-chauvanistic definition "which makes it all too easy to deny progress in evolution."   His own definition he calls "adaptationist;" i.e., "a tendency for lineages to improve cumulatively their adaptive fit to their particular way of life, by increasing the numbers of features which combine together in adaptive complexes."   No doubt Gould thinks this definition makes it all too easy to *propose* progress in evolution.  Nevertheless, Dawkins, like Gould, does not and never has believed in the sort of "progress" implied in the concept of a "ladder of life," on which there are higher and lower orders.  This is the sort of evolutionary progress I believe Michael was referring to in his original post. I tend to think that the feud between Dawkins and Gould is blown out of proportion by the popular (and popularizing) press and that it is unlikely they "detest" each other.  I’ve read reviews by Dawkins of Gould’s books and reviews that, while disagreeing strongly with one argument or another, display no rancor or animosity. Quoted from a response by Dawkins to a Guardian article about the "feud": "Stephen Gould certainly is an ‘implacable opponent of . . . genetic determinism’.  Right then, Dawkins must be in favour of it – otherwise there wouldn’t be a feud, and that would be no fun. In fact, as anybody would know who reads what I actually say instead of what I am supposed to say, I too am an implacable opponent of genetic determinism. "Gould thinks that the extinction of the dinosaurs had nothing to do with natural selection. Sorry to spoil the fun, but so do I.  Gould thinks natural selection is not the only force shaping the course of evolution. Well, I know it seems a shame, but so do I, and I have devoted large portions of my books to explaining this." ***** Just what did Dawkins disagree with in the Gould / Lewontin article? BTW, you don’t think the idea that something older than blue-green algae on the evolutionary scale is somehow "worse" than blue-green algae (or us) is just the sort of human chauvinism that *both* Dawkins and Gould would rave against. <g JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This idea that there is "progress" in evolution is a common fallacy.  A good book on this subject is "The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design," by Richard Dawkins. Actually, the notion that there is no "progress" in evolution a cause championed most famously by Stephen J. Gould, who happens to be Dawkins’ intellectual enemy. Their feud goes way back, and I think it’s fair to say that they detest each other. I once asked Dawkins’  what he thought about a paper by Gould and Lewontin (The spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian paradigm: A critique of the adaptationist programme. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, B205:581-598) that bears on exactly this issue. He (Dawkins) raved for at least ten minutes about how stupid and misguided the paper is. Dawkins’ own views on the subject are more accurately summarized in the book "Climbing Mount Improbable," which definitely gives the impression that there is "progress" of a sort in evolution (i.e., climbing higher on the Mount Improbable). My own opinion is that if there weren’t progress in evolution we’d still be blue-green algae, or worse. The problem is that "progress" is a subjective concept.

Response:

My own opinion is that if there weren’t progress in evolution we’d still be blue-green algae, or worse. The problem is that "progress" is a subjective concept.

Perhaps the most succinct and irrefutable refutation of one’s own opinion that I have ever seen. Wolfgang o.k., this oughta be good!

Response:

Question:

Double dittos on Eureka.  It’s not the brand it used to be, however: my 25 year old Timberline is still going strong even after putting some serious holes in the floor over the years (*don’t* bring a tackle box full of pike lures into the tent…).  My wife bought me a Eureka Sunrise 9 about 10 years ago, and even though I bitched at the time that it didn’t have a full fly, it has worked very well – it has survived 5 years of cub scout camping trips, and a bunch of fishing trips with friends and the family and it has never leaked in the rain.  And I’ve been through some serious weather including many tornado warning storms (we had to evacuate a campground with 400 cub scouts one weekend – tents were floating away and I never got a drop of water inside except from peoples’ clothes).  I really like the big windows – here in Massachusetts it’s often muggy and the ventilation is really important.  We used a Eureka Backcountry (essentially an updated Timberline) on a trip into the Boundary Waters last fall and had 8 nights of thunderstorms and high winds without ever a leak.  If I were going into serious outback carrying all my gear, I would look at a more extreme design with better coverage, but for car and canoe camping I’ve been very happy with my Eurekas. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them. I like the Eureka! Timberline models for car camping. Ditto a testimonial for Eureka.   I’ve been very happy with the quality of everything I have from them. Joe F.

Response:

Double dittos on Eureka.  

These votes of confidence in Eureka are heartening. I want a tent that’s very roomy and that I can easily stand up in. That’s why I like the Eureka Headquarters (6′11"). One Timberline model would work — the Timberline Outfitter 6. I’m not that worried about the fly. This will be a strictly car-camping tent, and if I get into really serious weather I can just get into my truck. I’d rather have a tent that’s very open for the 95% of the time that I’m camping in good, summer, Western weather. The Headquarters looks good for that. It has BIG windows. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

That’s a nice tent, but there’s a couple of problems. First of all, it’s about twice as expensive as the Eureka model. … An essential element of its snob appeal, donchaknow. — Ken Fortenberry

______ Question? When you and Wolfgangbanger crawl in the same high quality sleeping bag,  who wears the perfume? ; ) — MrG/American Sportsman (never sleep with your fly rod in a sleeping bag) http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

Didn’t you just tell me in an earlier post that you were above such shit as the post below? What’s up?  Is your mind failing you? Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s a nice tent, but there’s a couple of problems. First of all, it’s about twice as expensive as the Eureka model. … An essential element of its snob appeal, donchaknow. — Ken Fortenberry ______ Question? When you and Wolfgangbanger crawl in the same high quality sleeping bag,  who wears the perfume? ; ) — MrG/American Sportsman (never sleep with your fly rod in a sleeping bag) http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

An essential element of its snob appeal, donchaknow.

Get a Moss Big Dipper then. If I was going to go nomadic, that’d be my choice. Otherwise I’d stick with Eureka! Timberline even though Wolfgang can’t seem to pitch them properly<g. — Charlie…

Response:

or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them. I like the Eureka! Timberline models for car camping.

Ditto a testimonial for Eureka.   I’ve been very happy with the quality of everything I have from them. Joe F.

Response:

Ditto a testimonial for Eureka.   I’ve been very happy with the quality of everything I have from them. Joe F.

I like Eureka too.  I have a Timberline 2-man tent and a Wind River 6-man dome and both have survived some hairy winds and rainstorms. The Timberline has never collapsed on me like a previous poster mentioned, and frankly I can’t see how it could.  I wonder if maybe he’s thinking of a different tent.  The nice thing about the Timberline is that one person can set it up single-handed in about 5 minutes, but the Wind River takes about 15-20 minutes and at least two people. As long as you are car-camping and weight isn’t a consideration, I recommend you get the biggest tent you can afford.  When you end up spending a whole day inside your tent waiting out a rain, those extra few cubic feet of space will seem worth every penny. Kevin

Response:

Gotta agree with the Milwaukee rat slasher on this one.

        hilarious.  only on roff would such a name be considered an appellation for a friend.  :)         wayno, aka "delerium tremens"

Response:

Eureka Timberline – the big one Ed Fox – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m shopping for a tent for car camping. I’m considering either Cabelas Truck Tent or the Alaknak tent (also from Cabelas). If anyone has experience with or opinions about these tents, or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

For comparison, take a look at The North Face Bedrock http://content.thenorthface.com/index_products.html

That’s a nice tent, but there’s a couple of problems. First of all, it’s about twice as expensive as the Eureka model. That’s no big deal, but it’s also not sold over the web, and there’s no retailer anywhere nearby. (Ironically, there’s a big North Face store about five minutes from my house in California.) I suppose I could call a retailer and have them ship it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

That’s a nice tent, but there’s a couple of problems. First of all, it’s about twice as expensive as the Eureka model. …

An essential element of its snob appeal, donchaknow. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Eureka Timberline – the big one

My best friend and frequent backpacking companion bought his first timberline in the late 70s, if memory serves.  I have spent MANY nights in it and its successors.  The best thing about this tent was that it was Jay’s, and thus he carried it.  Next best was the roominess. However, the timberline with its relatively high profile and meager support system was prone to collapsing in the middle of dark stormy nights.  The natural and completely understandable tendency of the human brain to suppress horrible memories makes it impossible for me to remember with any precision how many times this happened, but it was a bunch. Wolfgang caveat tentor

Response:

For comparison, take a look at The North Face Bedrock http://content.thenorthface.com/index_products.html That’s a nice tent, but there’s a couple of problems. First of all, it’s about twice as expensive as the Eureka model. That’s no big deal, but it’s also not sold over the web, and there’s no retailer anywhere nearby. (Ironically, there’s a big North Face store about five minutes from my house in California.) I suppose I could call a retailer and have them ship it.

I suspect it IS sold on the web rw.  Just have to find the right retailer.  Start with Cabela’s or look at gorp.com for retailers

Response:

That’s a nice rig, Asadi, but I’ll be pulling a horse trailer, at least some of the time, so I need something that I can put in the back of my truck. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

 Could you put a tracer on that Fly Rod Ken? – MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

I’m shopping for a tent for car camping. I’m considering either Cabelas Truck Tent or the Alaknak tent (also from Cabelas). If anyone has experience with or opinions about these tents, or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them.

Seems like everybody in the world with a sewing machine is in the tent business these days.  Becky and I were shopping early this year in preparation for our Never Summer Wilderness trip later this month, and we looked at hundreds.  Over the course of a thirty year backpacking career I used many different tents and the vast majority of them, as well as most that we looked at this year, are crap.  The governing philosophy seems to be that unless you are a serious mountaineer you will be satisfied with something that will almost certainly leave you wet and miserable.  I don’t know if you remember seeing it at the NC clave, but the Mountain Hardwear tent we ended up buying is excellent. But the brand is not nearly as important as the features of the individual tent.  I would advise you to go for the oxymoron, the REALLY BIG backpacking or mountaineering tent.  Wherever you shop, talk to the people who have done some serious expedition work and then find the biggest thing you can that resembles what they use.  One thing you should never ever compromise on; be absolutely sure that the rain fly covers the entire tent!!  A fly which leaves even a small portion of the bottom uncovered is thoroughly useless, and a tent with a useless rain fly is a ticket for the express to hell. Wolfgang hypothermia and sleep deprivation are about 40 megahoovers each

Response:

Right now I’m leaning toward the Eureka! Headquarters.         http://www.vtarmynavy.com/eureka_luxury_family_tents.htm — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Right now I’m leaning toward the Eureka! Headquarters.         http://www.vtarmynavy.com/eureka_luxury_family_tents.htm

None of the models shown on that page has a fly that completely covers the tent.  You WILL be sorry.

Response:

Right now I’m leaning toward the Eureka! Headquarters.         http://www.vtarmynavy.com/eureka_luxury_family_tents.htm None of the models shown on that page has a fly that completely covers the tent.  You WILL be sorry.

Gotta agree with the Milwaukee rat slasher on this one. Don’t know how much attention you paid at the time but both of the tents Wolfie & I had set up on the Watauga had full coverage flies. When a thuderstorm dumps an inch of water on you in less than an hour, some of it arriving horizontally, you will appreciate having a full coverage fly. For comparison, take a look at The North Face Bedrock http://content.thenorthface.com/index_products.html — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I’m shopping for a tent for car camping. I’m considering either Cabelas Truck Tent or the Alaknak tent (also from Cabelas). If anyone has experience with or opinions about these tents, or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them.

I like the Eureka! Timberline models for car camping. — Charlie…

Response:

I’m shopping for a tent for car camping. …

We’ve been real happy with The North Face. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

rw,    I made a nice rig for my Datsun pick up for camping.  It slept two people, had a table, stove, sink, water, cabinet and storage areas. It was really great for fishing trips.  Mounted my Honda Trail 110 on the back and an inflatable raft on the top.  I went all over the Sierras with it. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m shopping for a tent for car camping. I’m considering either Cabelas Truck Tent or the Alaknak tent (also from Cabelas). If anyone has experience with or opinions about these tents, or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them.

Response:

I pulled it with a four cylinder Pinto all over creation.  Seriously.  I could maneuver the little unit by myself and it contained all of the basic necessities….(pepper mill replaced….but I think the little lady bought to delicate of a set at the garage sale). Containing all of the necessary things and requiring nothing more than ‘folding up or unfolding’ it made, in essense, car camping much morer convenient. ‘Course, they don’t make my type….a "Cox’ anymore….they were made in Grifton, NC. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m shopping for a tent for car camping. I’m considering either Cabelas Truck Tent or the Alaknak tent (also from Cabelas). If anyone has experience with or opinions about these tents, or recommendations of other tents, I’m interested in hearing about them. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Question:

My 17 year old son and I day tripped into a sub-alpine lake in the sapphires. We hauled in a hobbie cat pontoon boat and went fly-fishing for arctic grayling.  Between the two of us we caught & released about 50 of the little things in about 5 hours of fishing. Basically they hit anything that floated in a 14 or smaller.  most were 10" or so but we caught a few up to 14" and one 16".    lake is at about 8200′ elevation and still ringed with snow on the adjacent north facing slopes (i.e. water is bloody cold) I must have been pre-occupied during my turn on the pontoon- my son tells me there was a black bear taking a drink from the shore line about 100′ from where I was fishing & I didn’t see it. (lake is about 13 acres and I was on the far side under a shale slide.) The grayling do not fight like a trout- they tended to stay down and run- but not with a lot of power.  Unfortunately I only have a 9′  6 wt which is definitely too much rod for these fellas – I think a 4 wt might be more fun–hmm, I wonder what the finance dept would say to that. Sunday I had a little time to kill so I ran up the Blackfoot river (base river in ARRTI) and fished for a few hours- only managed 5 or 6 small ‘bows of about 10".  the water is still high, fast and turbid and I was using a small wulff pattern.  I think a "big ugly" would be better. Looks like a really dry year coming- I’m worried about water levels in the major streams/rivers.

Response:

Rivers are below normal and the snowpack is basically gone. We need timely rains if the rivers are going to stay cool enough for trout. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm 406-626-4022

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looks like a really dry year coming- I’m worried about water levels in the major streams/rivers.

Response:

Question:

Uh-Oh…I think someone just turned on the heater it’s starting to get hot in here….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD: The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic. As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?  Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!  HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!?? Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that. But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense. Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.  But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half. What about the tapers?  Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web. But soon customers won’t be so patient.  You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.  Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade. What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules. If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage. There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass? Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.  Perhaps the BASTARD will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.  Perhaps not.  But at least talk to a cane rod-maker (check out the cane Rodmakers page at http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm) to see what kind of rod they can make you and what their rods can do over a production rod. Oh, but I doubt any of of those rodmakers would be able to seel you a Marryat reel.  Tough luck. The Tonkin Kid

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD:

and George began his reply: ______ That is me, "tonkin kid".  Talk to me.  I’m the man.  I’m the uno numeruno Bastard you need to address yourself too.  Now then?  You were saying?

(remainder of repartee snipped, in my never-ceasing attempt to save band-width) Go get’em George.  We can’t have these blithering naysayers ruining our fun. Mark Faulkner

Response:

‘kid,’ is licking his wounds.  He will heal though and will come back to try to learn  more about us. O.G.O

Response:

Tonkin Kid, I think you should change your name to "The Foolium Kid". 1. Do you know what the price of a bundle of Tonkin cane is. 2. Do you know the average number of good culms in a bundle of Tonkin cane? 3. Do you know how many rods with extra tips can be built with one culm? 4. Do you know how many strips a man using power tools can plain in a day? 5. Do you know how many blanks one man can finish in a day? 4. Do you know what the mark up is on a bamboo rod? I don’t know where you buy your hardware and materials but you won’t ever find me there.  I have seen figures just like yours trying to justify the cost of graphite rods also, but you should peddle your foolium elsewhere, I am not in the market. Ernie Harrison

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD: The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic. As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?  Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!  HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!?? Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that. But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense.   Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.  But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half. What about the tapers?  Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web. But soon customers won’t be so patient.  You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.  Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade. What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules. If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage. There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass? Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.  Perhaps the BASTARD will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.  Perhaps not.  But at least talk to a cane rod-maker (check out the cane Rodmakers page at http://home1.gte.net/jfoster/index.htm) to see what kind of rod they can make you and what their rods can do over a production rod. Oh, but I doubt any of of those rodmakers would be able to seel you a Marryat reel.  Tough luck.   The Tonkin Kid

Response:

To all sponsoring and/or midwiving the BASTARD:

______ That is me, "tonkin kid".  Talk to me.  I’m the man.  I’m the uno numeruno Bastard you need to address yourself too.  Now then?  You were saying? Oh?  By the way – Refer to me from now on as "O.G.O." The news surrounding the birth of the BASTARD is nothing short of fantastic.

As a fan of split-cane rods, I salute these efforts and think everyone should have the chance to own and fish a properly tooled and crafted cane rod.  So what about the BASTARD?

dense quality Imported Just For this bastard. Does anyone out there really think that a split-cane rod can be produced for $300???!!!

HELLO?!  ARE WE ALL THAT DELUDED??!!??

Cane hex blanks alone wholesale for over $200 and quadrates are double that.

But the BASTARDS will be made from cheap cane in a no-nonsense fashion, as if a BLANK has any nonsense.

more careful on who you’re talking too here ‘tonkin kid’.  Is that it?  "Tonkin Kid?"  Are you saying you have the market cornered on cheap bamboo?  Sorry.  We don’t want any. Cheap cane is cheap because it is covered either with water marks or grower’s marks.  I know, I know…the BASTARD aesthetic is not concerned with aesthetics.

BASTARD BAMBOO FLY ROD.  This fly fishing world is ready for a Beautiful Bastard – and this is it.  In fact, you’re beginning to qualify for one. But grower’s marks typically go through the enamel and sever the power bundles.  Yes, this effects casting, noticeably.  Really.  Cane costs could be reduced by making one-tip rods, but that cuts the life of the BASTARD in half.

equate your kind of foolishness with a high quality BASTARD FLY ROD.  "Don’t Tread On Me Dude"  Just might become a Bastard Model.  Thank goodness, nothing you’ve said so far applies to a BASTARD FLY ROD.  "Half Life," looks more promising to the "tonkin kid," buddy.  Where do you get off making such outlandish statements and lies?  Do you work for Bill Clinton? What about the tapers?

Initially, it would be easy enough to sell only one taper/length in each line weight; there are plenty of tapers out on the web.

But soon customers won’t be so patient.

You’ll need more.  That means taking the time to reset you planing forms and triple-check the depth.  Then you’ll have to test out guide spacing on each different taper.  Time, time.

BASTARD BAMBOO FLY ROD.  Like I said.  I’m rich. What about tooling?  To put up with the rigors of production, you’ll have to get decent tooling.

tooling is the best in the world.  Do you want to come and work for me? Your cheapest tools will be your planing forms (~$800 for one that will last) and planes (at least four; as much as you want them to be, but don’t skimp on the blades).  Don’t forget your beveler and binder which together go for the price of a year’s tuition at an Ivy-league school.  A good depth guage is a car payment.  And don’t forget your wrapper, whipping thread, sock, tube…  To keep costs down I guess you don’t have to worry about the finish, just use tung-oil.  Then you don’t need varnish, dip-tanks, color-preserver, or any of that.  But tung-oil rods *often* won’t last a half of a decade.

shop.  Everything is free except raw materials.  You need to get your planing forms from someone that doesn’t screw you all the time, kid.  It was "kid" – right? What about hardware?  Snakes and tip-tops are no big deal, but forget about the agate (or even agatine) stripper.  If you find a good agate stripper for less than $30, then you haven’t found agate. (Doesn’t sound like much, but that’s already 10% of your rod.)  To keep costs down, what’s wrong with SiC? Hook-keepers?  Anyone who’s read Garrison knows that American cane rod-makers don’t use hook-keepers.  It’s called a stripping guide. Yup.  Saved money there.  Reel seats?  Forget fancy, how about alder?  Don’t even get me started on ferrules.

have too but, I will admit I’d rather just buy them ready made.  You’re down to nickle/dime stuff.  Hardware.  No mystery in hardware.  If we can’t buy it at a price that is fair, we will make it right here. Kid, you just don’t know what the hell  you’re talking about.  If we can build it cheaper, guess what the choice is going to be? If you can somehow get all the above costs diffused through an enormous production run so that they retail for under $500, you still haven’t paid you labor.  Even if it’s a labor force of one, Mr. G, he’ll need to eat once in a while.  Hobbyists can finish a cane rod in about 40-50 man-hours.  Custom rods from the 30 or so who make cane rods for a living (full-time) take about 80-100 man-hours.  These folks probably want to charge a little more than minimum wage.

person operation.  Automation on as much as is possible is guaranteed.  Those ‘full time’ rod makers have to cut the vacations and coffee breaks pal. I just love it when all these losers keep equating how others should run their businesses.  Has anyone latched onto that yet?  "Welllllllll?"  They think.  If it takes ME 100 hours to make a bamboo fly rod, that means its going to take you 100 hours too." wrong! There are reasons that cane rods cost as much as they do, and there are reasons that the many attempts to produce low-cost cane rods in the last 30 years have failed.  What you get in a properly made and well-crafted cane rod is not only a superior fishing instrument, but a piece of American history. The cane-rod industry is one of the last in this country that consists of independent artisans who apprentice under masters and continue to improve upon the tradition.  If you read up on the history of cane-rods you’ll notice that even though split-cane and greenheart originated in the UK, the modern tradition of split-cane rods is American and any reputable rod-maker can trace his apprenticeship back to a 19th century master.  Yes, they still cost a lot, but if you ever talk to a full-time rod-maker (at the FFF or somewhere) you’ll see that no one gets rich making rods, they do because they love it.

BASTARDS. And finally…Is there a real difference between cane and graphite or glass?

_______Well, gee?  I don’t know?  Is there a difference between land and water? The moon and the sun?  Your wife as compared to mine?  Golfing in the middle of a street and a fairway?  You tell us kid.  This is a heavy question. Well, is there a difference between an Aston-Martin and a Geo?  or is there a difference between Night Train and the Famous Grouse?  Both cars will get you where you want to go and both drinks will eventually get you drunk, but I guess it depends on how you want to get there.  Maybe a better analogy is shaving with garden-shears or a straight razor.  One is clumsy and potentially painful and the other, with a little practice, is an instrument of precision and tradition that is a pleasure to use and surpasses all.

qualified.  Park it dude.  Your engine is racing but your tires are standing still.  All this has NOTHING to do with   BASTARD FLY RODS.  You have not one, single, base point to stand on.  You are just (to be perfectly frank) a baseless opinion.  A noise.  A silent fart in church.  You are way off base on nearly everything.  But!  That is okay.  We get them like you here all the time.  We just need to soften you up a little and get you drunk a time or two.  We might even teach you how to be a success.  Here, anything is possible.  Even for you kid. If you decide to get a split-cane rod, get the right one for the right reasons.  Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap.

pine tree all the time?  Just LISTEN to yourself!  Quote:  "Don’t get any old BASTARD because it is cheap."  Well, there are no other BASTARDS and these are not old.  Right away, you make yourself out an idiot of principle, ‘kid’. This also isn’t ANY old BASTARD.  That is another mistake.  It is my BASTARD FLY ROD COMPANY and you have NO RIGHT to say or ASSUME the things you’re doing here . . . kid. (God, I love this place!) Perhaps the BASTARD

‘hope’ for ‘the kid.’  What do you guys think?  Is he or is not ‘the kid’ qualifying as a real bastard who should own a bastard? will be the rod that will change the ff-ing world.

life.  How do we know?  Because you’re HERE!  It is everyone’s pleasure to meet a cynic such as  yourself.  You

… read more »

Response:

Question:

I don’t have ten favorite flies and I would be hard pressed to just to give you the names of 30 flies.  To me "favorite fly" means the one I like best, not 10 or 30.  My favorite dry fly is a modified Horner Deer Hair, which tells you nothing because you have no idea how I modify it.  Jack Horner is the inventor of the Humpy or Goofus Bug which is my next to my favorite dry fly.  My favorite wet fly is a Western Coachnan and my favorite streamer is one of Keith Fulshers flies from his book "Tying and Fishing the Thunder Creek Series". — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PEOPLE! I didn’t want to know a 10 fly collection, I wanted to know your 10 favorite dries, your 10 favorite wets, your ten favorite nymphs, and your 10 favorite streamers. Bryce Carron Santa Fe, Texas

Response:

PEOPLE! I didn’t want to know a 10 fly collection, I wanted to know your 10 favorite dries, your 10 favorite wets, your ten favorite nymphs, and your 10 favorite streamers. Bryce Carron Santa Fe, Texas

PERSON !!   I do not want to tell you !   Harry

Response:

PEOPLE! I didn’t want to know a 10 fly collection, I wanted to know your 10 favorite dries, your 10 favorite wets, your ten favorite nymphs, and your 10 favorite streamers. Bryce Carron Santa Fe, Texas

Response:

PEOPLE! I didn’t want to know a 10 fly collection, I wanted to know your 10 favorite dries, your 10 favorite wets, your ten favorite nymphs, and your 10 favorite streamers.

Now you’re telling us the rules! My fly box isn’t that big, and I can’t remember all the names, just what works. 12 green ones, 16 black, 4 red, and 8 brown. Some are multi colored but who’s counting. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atpacbell.net Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

Question:

Hello, all I will be taking a vacation to Scotland next summer, probably in mid-July. I am interested in fly fishing for salmon in the rivers Spey, Usk, Loch Ness, and Loch Carron. Are the salmon running at that time of year? I have a 9.5 ft 10 wt with an Orvis Battenkill 10-11 reel. Would that rig be sufficient, if so, what flies, leaders, and other equipment might I need. TIA Bryce Carron

I have been fishing for salmon in Scotland for the past 7 years on the South Elks (East coast).  This summer we caught 2 salomon and two sea trout.  The worst in all of my years.  It seenms that the commerical fisheries are netting all the fish before they ready the rivers.  You may have a difficult time booking a beat unless you known someone.  Day tickets can be a waste of time.  If you really want to go try the Spy (around Aveiemore or Pitlockry). There aren’t the fish in the rivers where you can get a day’ ticket.  As for your rod, I use a Spy casting (two handed) with fast sinking line, (depends on the water – fast of slow moving).  Any way, you will need a line that sinks to the fish. They don’t feed in fresh water what you are doing is making him mad enough to move the fly out of this area.  Flies used are shrimp (prones), Skotes tail or any streamer with color works well.  If you Tight lines, Keith Gibson

Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been fishing for salmon in Scotland for the past 7 years on the South Elks (East coast).  This summer we caught 2 salomon and two sea trout.  The worst in all of my years.  It seenms that the commerical fisheries are netting all the fish before they ready the rivers.  You may have a difficult time booking a beat unless you known someone.  Day tickets can be a waste of time.  If you really want to go try the Spy (around Aveiemore or Pitlockry). There aren’t the fish in the rivers where you can get a day’ ticket.  As for your rod, I use a Spy casting (two handed) with fast sinking line, (depends on the water – fast of slow moving).  Any way, you will need a line that sinks to the fish. They don’t feed in fresh water what you are doing is making him mad enough to move the fly out of this area.  Flies used are shrimp (prones), Skotes tail or any streamer with color works well.  If you Tight lines, Keith Gibson

Keith         I hope its your keyboard that you are having trouble with and not the grey matter between your ears. mean the South Esk."     2) You put the lack of fish down to increased commercial fishery netting.         "For your information there are many factors affecting salmonoid stocks,         sea-temperature, deforrestation, dry winters, reduction in spawning grounds…etc" mean Aviemore as         for Pitlockry there is no such place in the UK, the nearest I can find is Pitlochry but that         is about 100 miles from the Spey, surely you didn’t mean that. Even using your Spy rod         I doubt you could cast that far.     4) The Spey is a shallow river for most of its length and to advise anybody to use a fast         sinking line is foolish, unless you want to loose lots of flies and nylon.         To fish the Spey even in February we locals don’t use anything more than a Wet Cel 1 but         more often its just a sink-tip. believe I knoe that one. I think the         fly you are trying to reccommend is the Stoats Tail. Good advice…….for certain conditions but when         would you use it as opposed to a Allies Shrimp, Garry Dog, Hornet and in what sizes and on what hooks?. When did you escape from that nice warm and cosy hospital    :-)     Only joking Kieth, but try to make your comments as accurate as possible in future,                     Chris

Response:

The Association waters on the Spey at Abernethy and Grantown give pretty good fishing at reasonable cost. You would find a single-handed rod pretty short for the Spey – it’s a wide river. The Tourist Information Office at Grantown would give details. Tight Lines

Response:

Question:

I went with the Simms Gore-Tex Micro Fibers.   They’re expensive,  but super comfortable.   I also use them for backpacking with a pair of Tevas.

Response:

I just bought the new Orvis No-Sweat waders and couldn’t be happier.  They are super comfortable and you really don’t sweat.  Very lightweight also, they just fold up and are carried in a little bag that they come with. You can’t beat the guarantee either.  One year and if your waders have a hole for any reason, Orvis will replace them free.  Nobody else offers this.

Response:

Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

Just got Orvis stocking hippers and (so far) they’ve been ok (stay away from Fly Tech or other cheap brands).  I use Nike (or similar brand) Aquasocks which are light weight and very functional. hope this helps;  let me know if you hit agood spot in the Sierras–I go up often and am always looking for new places– aaron

Response:

Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

After five years of heavy fising I have just retired the lightweight Orvis stocking foot waders.  With some care, ie look out for thorns, branches in the woods, I have gotten a good five years of use.           Also the canvas boots from LLBeans is quite good.  Cheaper than Orvis too.  They cost about $50.  The orvis waders and hippers wore very well.  I am still using the hippers.  Good luck, FHK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John You might not need any for the small streams.  If you think you do I would William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

William, I am not Bob, am using his browser, he told me to say this because he is embaressed by my question, however,  I am new to this sport. and I want to purchase a good all around pair of waders. What do you recommend.  I see many many different brands.  I don’t want to spend a a lot, but don’t want to get wet either or buy a new pair next year when I learn more.  Your recommendations are appreciated!!!   Thanks Phyllis

Response:

: Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight : waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need : waders that are very light yet durable. Red Ball Supplex waders- superlight and tough. And don’t forget a patch kit –mike

Response:

Wondering if anyone could shed light on good choices for light weight waders. Mainly backpack in the Sierra’s to fishing holes/streams, so need waders that are very light yet durable. Any ideas on shoes? Thought of Teva sandles but those are heavy. Any info appreciated ! John

Response:

Question:

Just bought a copy of Farrow Allen-Dick Stewart’s  book, Trout flies. It’s far and away obove the ORVIS book I’ve been using! Can’t get better pictures and descriptions…worth all of the 55$ Canadian I paid. Think of it. That’s only about 39.95$ US….. and what the hell has happened to our $. It’s no wonder we’re getting poorer. You USA residents cannot get a better vacation deal than coming to Canada. It’s a bargain when you use  US dollars! Not just the fishing but the meals, hotels etcetera. Hell, I went to Scotland this year and paid the equivalent of 150$US for a bed and breakfast! Nice, mind you but very pricey by comparison. No doubt in my mind, the best deals anywhere in the world are right here in North America and in particular.. Canada!

Response:

Sounds pretty good!  How do I get a copy, I can’t find it in my local fly-fishing shop?

Response: