Question:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

  George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

Response:

Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

|  What our outdoor wildlife inventories need is the total removal of all | livestock that steal their food and habitat. | | Why? | | Because wildlife is more valuable to a state’s economy as it is to the | Federal Economy. | | Allowing grazing on Federal (PUBLIC) lands to individual ranchers is stupid | economics. | | George G. | | | | | | | When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush | too I suppose. | — That’s why I advocate using funds collected from grazing federal lands be used to induce ranchers to use land that has already been converted to farming.  I’d rather convert from arable to grazing land, than forest/prairie to grazing land ! I don’t accept that it’s a choice between cattle & tourists – it’s more of a choice between cattle & migrants. But if we convince ranchers to move East onto arable land, we come closer to both protecting our fragile environments AND providing beef at competitive prices (compared to Argentinean beef). P.S. I remember paying $9 a pound for beef in the UK – beef was one of the most expensive forms of meat. But now I pay $9 a pound for Stilton cheese instead (I paid $3-4 a pound for Stilton in the UK).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east… Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses. Thomas Gilg

Also what has to be remembered is that the ranchers who won’t be able to afford higher grazing fees will be the smaller family operations. The bigger ones will be able to absorb any increased costs. By most accounts grazing is a problem ( a huge problem in some instances) along the riparian corridors out west but it is also problematic if the solution only brings about the demise of family ranches to the benefit of the huge multi-national conglomerate run outfits. No one said this was going to be easy. George C.

Response:

 What our outdoor wildlife inventories need is the total removal of all livestock that steal their food and habitat. Why? Because wildlife is more valuable to a state’s economy as it is to the Federal Economy. Allowing grazing on Federal (PUBLIC) lands to individual ranchers is stupid economics. George G.

Response:

|

| I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of | depopulation in rural communities back east… | | Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was | several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners | were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does | appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider | myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I | also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring | in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an | opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend | (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – | I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend | lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off | (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to | move that land into less intensive uses. | | Thomas Gilg | | | | | Also what has to be remembered is that the ranchers who won’t be able to afford | higher grazing fees will be the smaller family operations. The bigger ones will | be able to absorb any increased costs. By most accounts grazing is a problem ( a | huge problem in some instances) along the riparian corridors out west but it is | also problematic if the solution only brings about the demise of family ranches | to the benefit of the huge multi-national conglomerate run outfits. | | No one said this was going to be easy. | George C. | That may be true, too. The reason my grandfather specialized, was to devote more acres to one crop, to be able to absorb the fixed overheads. But even he had just 500 acres. My father struggled to make money. I refused to take over – it was clear at an early age that it simply COULD NOT be profitable, because of/despite the (socialist) policies of the Common Agricultural Policy, dreamed up by the EU. These same policies were actually intended to protect the family farm. In reality they destroyed it. Q. How far do we go, to protect the family farm? The French have split their farms between 2 (or more) sons for generations. Now they have 100-acre farms that are mere subsistence farming. On an environmental tack – I would prefer to see people grazing farm land that is already farm land & lacking farmers, rather than grazing the more fragile environments often (but not always) found on federal lands. Take the money farm managers pay and use it to encourage farmers to take up the land that has been converted from it’s natural state, into My family were TENANT farmers. After my father & his brother retired, the farm was bought from the landlord & is now actually profitable. Q. HOW – by finding a niche. The current farmers don’t try to compete with the large managed farms. They run an organic farm – even the wool is organic. They don’t need help competing, because they specialisze. I suspect the family-ranchers here in the SW USA will have to also find a niche.

Response:

I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east…

Most of the rural counties in Oregon are loosing population, and it was several years ago when I heard a statistic that 90% of the rural landowners were age 60 or greater. I don’t know how true the 90% stat is, but it does appear rural america is dwindling for *many* reasons. Though I consider myself an environmentalists, and often see the need for action *now*, I also recognize that there are more powerful long-term changes occuring in the US such as rural depopulation, and often think that there is an opportunity for environmentalists and landowners to accept this trend (rather than force it), and see ways to make it positive. Case in point – I could spend lots of time going after grazing issues, or I could spend lots of time understanding which landowners are wanting to sell off (because their kids aren’t following in their footsteps) and seeing how to move that land into less intensive uses. Thomas Gilg

Response:

        www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal Monday, November 11, 2002

Question:

Greetings All, I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers in this area as to what ‘yak you use

Not from the area, but I have a couple of ‘Rides’ I use for fly fishing and they are great boats. I live in Atlanta but have used them off Tybee Island and also around the Port St. Joe/Apalachiciola area and have had no problems with them at all. — Charlie…

Response:

Greetings All, I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers in this area as to what ‘yak you use Not from the area, but I have a couple of ‘Rides’ I use for fly fishing and they are great boats. I live in Atlanta but have used them off Tybee Island and also around the Port St. Joe/Apalachiciola area and have had no problems with them at all. — Charlie…

I’ll have to go test one out and see if it’s really possible to stand up in it like the chap depicted in the ad on their web page. Scott

Response:

I’ll have to go test one out and see if it’s really possible to stand up in it like the chap depicted in the ad on their web page.

It is, but I’m not sure I could land a fish that way. <g — Charlie…

Response:

Cockroach Bay is a "good area."  Still relatively undisturbed.  Too shallow for many powerboats.  Rich in fish and birdlife. Also try the sandbar just north of the Cockroach Bay boat ramp and separating the outer mangrove shore from Tampa Bay.  I used to wedge a paddle into the sand and tie my canoe to it; then, walk/wade the bar, casting off the side that seemed likely to be most productive.  Got snook, trout, bonnethead shark, etc., there.  Very pleasant even when fish weren’t biting. Jeff Jeff Harper jeff#doplay.com

| Greetings All, | | I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers | in this area as to what ‘yak you use and what are some good areas. I’m | considering a Scupper Pro TW or a Wilderness Systems Ride.   I’m | thinking the Weedon Island area is a good place, and the flats area | between the Gandy and Skyway. | | Scott |

Response:

Greetings All, I live in the Tampa Bay area & would like some input from kayak fishers in this area as to what ‘yak you use and what are some good areas. I’m considering a Scupper Pro TW or a Wilderness Systems Ride.   I’m thinking the Weedon Island area is a good place, and the flats area between the Gandy and Skyway. Scott

Response:

Question:

The White House (SPOOF) – Amid charges he ordered a release from the SPR simply to help get Hilary out of his hair by foisting her off on the people of New York, he released the following statement: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman…" When asked about the fact oil prices seeming to be going up, he had the following comments: "It depends on what the meaning of "up" is…" Meanwhile, Hilary, at a fundraiser given by Melissa Etheridge, Ellen Degeneris, and kd lang, released the following: "It’s a vast left-wing conspiracy.  I pledge to speak until the entire Northeast is warm and toasty…" Gore, meanwhile, speaking at an oil industry trade show, quipped, "I grew up with that wonderful lullaby, ‘You can trust you car…’."

Response:

The White House (SPOOF)

I think we all understand your feelings on the matter by now.      - Ken — "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness.  You have to catch it yourself."      -Ben Franklin

Response:

The White House (SPOOF) I think we all understand your feelings on the matter by now.     – Ken

Ya think? <G R

Response:

The White House (SPOOF)

Is this what you call discussing the issues, Richard? The real problem, though, is that it isn’t even funny. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

The real problem, though, is that it isn’t even funny.

The boys at the Petroleum Club probably got a good chuckle… — Charlie…

Response:

The White House (SPOOF) Is this what you call discussing the issues, Richard? The real problem, though, is that it isn’t even funny.

No, it isn’t, hence, it is a seperate posting.  As I said, I am willing to discuss the issues, or lampoon them, but not in the same discussion. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Most certainly.  The Kipster, Winthorpe, and Creighton all found it to be quite the ripper at the gin game at the club.  

Still no women allowed in the card room I assume? I’d hate to think that had changed… — Charlie…

Response:

The real problem, though, is that it isn’t even funny. The boys at the Petroleum Club probably got a good chuckle… — Charlie…

Most certainly.  The Kipster, Winthorpe, and Creighton all found it to be quite the ripper at the gin game at the club.  I must confess, however, Win’s little brother, Bink, found it a bit cutting, but he’s at that age…still a junior at, sigh, Babson, where they fuel that young liberal angst.

Response:

Most certainly.  The Kipster, Winthorpe, and Creighton all found it to be quite the ripper at the gin game at the club.   Still no women allowed in the card room I assume? I’d hate to think that had changed… — Charlie…

Of course we allow them in – we’re progressive, to a point.  Besides, who would vacuum and clean after the club closed?  And of course, if the waiter was sick, someone would have to bring us drinks and watercress finger sandwiches…

Response:

Of course we allow them in – we’re progressive, to a point.  Besides, who would vacuum and clean after the club closed?  And of course, if the waiter was sick, someone would have to bring us drinks and watercress finger sandwiches…

Last time I was in the Petroleum Club in Wichita (maybe 20 years ago), women weren’t even allow in to serve. Don’t know about cleaning up, though. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

Of course we allow them in – we’re progressive, to a point.  Besides, who would vacuum and clean after the club closed?  And of course, if the waiter was sick, someone would have to bring us drinks and watercress finger sandwiches… Last time I was in the Petroleum Club in Wichita (maybe 20 years ago), women weren’t even allow in to serve. Don’t know about cleaning up, though. FWIW. — Charlie…

Alas, times change, and we are very progressive – we even voted to move the lawn jockey at the Country Club from the front to back by the cart check…

Response:

As I said, I am willing to discuss the issues, or lampoon them, but not in the same discussion.

I’m afraid you’ve botched both attempts. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I said, I am willing to discuss the issues, or lampoon them, but not in the same discussion. I’m afraid you’ve botched both attempts. Aw, Steve, just face it: Bill, Al, and Hilary (and I’m not so sure about Tipper) are pandering political animals who’ll say or do anything for immediate self-aggrandization and gratification, personal, political, or sexual, and do it without the slightest regard for anyone or anything, and you’re just miffed because people don’t hesitate to point it out. The sad part is seemingly otherwise-intelligent people fall for their act, and _that_ isn’t funny.

Oh, stop your whining, fer chrissakes. Although the outcome is hardly in doubt at this point, it’s a little early to be stamping your Buster Browns while slandering the American voter. Your ex-drunk/ex-cokefiend Second-Coming-of-Quayle Heirhead never had a real reason for running in the first place, ‘cept that the roof is probably about to fall in on Texas and he had nothing better to do. I liked you better when you actually thought Shrub had at least a snow-ball’s chance in Hell of winning… /daytripper

Response:

This is just pathetic, Richard. I’m starting to feel sorry for you. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

This is just pathetic, Richard. I’m starting to feel sorry for you. — Aw, Steve, spoken like a true limo liberal.  

So sad, Richard. I count you as a friend and I hope for a speedy recovery. Let’s just go fishing sometime and put this ugly political shit behind us. BTW, I’ve never been in a limo in my life, and I ain’t no damn liberal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

As I said, I am willing to discuss the issues, or lampoon them, but not in the same discussion. I’m afraid you’ve botched both attempts.

Aw, Steve, just face it: Bill, Al, and Hilary (and I’m not so sure about Tipper) are pandering political animals who’ll say or do anything for immediate self-aggrandization and gratification, personal, political, or sexual, and do it without the slightest regard for anyone or anything, and you’re just miffed because people don’t hesitate to point it out. The sad part is seemingly otherwise-intelligent people fall for their act, and _that_ isn’t funny. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Are you a shill?  Is someone paying you to do this? I see all your post come in "working hours" and very few are on the topic of flyfishing.  There were very few posts of any that I recall before the election started. Will you be gone when Bush looses ?  Here’s some suggestions for more appropiate places to post., You can find more I’m sure. BJC alt. current-events.clinton.whitewater alt.flame.bill-clinton.abortion.partial-birth alt.flame.bill-clinton.humor alt.impeach.clinton alt.sex.clinton.bill alt.sex.clinton.hillary alt.sex.clinton.chelsa alt.fan.rush-limbaugh alt.politics.republicans alt.politics.usa.republicans alt.politics.bush alt.politics.clinton The White House (SPOOF) – Amid charges he ordered a release from the

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I said, I am willing to discuss the issues, or lampoon them, but not in the same discussion. I’m afraid you’ve botched both attempts. Aw, Steve, just face it: Bill, Al, and Hilary (and I’m not so sure about Tipper) are pandering political animals who’ll say or do anything for immediate self-aggrandization and gratification, personal, political, or sexual, and do it without the slightest regard for anyone or anything, and you’re just miffed because people don’t hesitate to point it out. The sad part is seemingly otherwise-intelligent people fall for their act, and _that_ isn’t funny. Oh, stop your whining, fer chrissakes. Although the outcome is hardly in doubt at this point, it’s a little early to be stamping your Buster Browns while slandering the American voter. Your ex-drunk/ex-cokefiend Second-Coming-of-Quayle Heirhead never had a real reason for running in the first place, ‘cept that the roof is probably about to fall in on Texas and he had nothing better to do. I liked you better when you actually thought Shrub had at least a snow-ball’s chance in Hell of winning… /daytripper

Hee-HEE… You don’t get it, because you can’t…people like what you (and a few others) _assume_ I am don’t _truly_ care who’s President, because they know who has the real power, and it ain’t the President, Bush or Gore. It’s just embarrassing to have a nouveau riche hillbilly boob and a wannabe Leona Helmsly/Eleanor Roosevelt like Bill and Hilary as figureheads.  As to the American voter, please.  Most will vote for such simplistic reasons as to be laughable.   If you Gore fans really knew anything about him, you might realize he’s just like Bush, but without at least some ethics (or backbone).  He’s a rich kid who did drugs, used Dad’s influence to stay out of combat in Vietnam (well, really Dad made damn sure they stayed out of combat), whose family made money from things like oil (BTW, Gore, Sr. and Armand Hammer were pretty big buddies and the Gore family trusts, one of which Al, Jr. is a trustee, still benefit pretty tidily), banking, real estate, tobacco, etc., went to private schools as an "insider," etc. Gore is just a weak-willed fop who got mixed up with wrong crowd – just like the nouveau riche kid who gets into trouble. He only got into politics because _his_ father was a pol.  Bush may not be the best man for the job, but he’s the best in a field of two…  

Response:

Are you a shill?  Is someone paying you to do this? I see all your post come in "working hours" and very few are on the topic of flyfishing.  There were very few posts of any that I recall before the election started. Will you be gone when Bush looses ?  Here’s some suggestions for more appropiate places to post., You can find more I’m sure. BJC

Oddly, you seem to read and respond to most, if not all.  Are _you_ a shill?  And when did the election start?  As to "on-topic," Bwa-ha-ha-ha…

Response:

This is just pathetic, Richard. I’m starting to feel sorry for you. —

Aw, Steve, spoken like a true limo liberal.  I have yet to see a single fact from you, only personal attacks, remarks I guess you mean to be "biting," and a bunch of mealy-mouthed Bush-bashing.  Let’s see some facts disputing a single thing I’ve said about Gore (or Clinton).  You make all these claims and statements, and when someone calls you on it, you "attack."  Frankly, I thought you were more intelligent, and at least had some basis for your opinions, but I guess it is I who should feel sorry for you… BTW, don’t feel sorry for me – I’ll be out of the city starting tomorrow, and for a few days I won’t give a flying fuck who doing what or who in Washington or New York. TC, R

Response:

This is just pathetic, Richard. I’m starting to feel sorry for you.

I find it funny how two people so alike can feel sorry for each other.      - Ken (Unabashed supporters of either side of the fence are equally pathetic IMHO.) — "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness.  You have to catch it yourself."      -Ben Franklin

Response:

This is just pathetic, Richard. I’m starting to feel sorry for you. I find it funny how two people so alike can feel sorry for each other.     – Ken (Unabashed supporters of either side of the fence are equally pathetic IMHO.)

Well, you know what they say, "If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything the Democrats say" <G.   FWIW, I’ll say it again: G.W.B. ain’t Dad, good, bad, or ugly and Gore ain’t Clinton, good, bad, or ugly, but even in the worst case, Bush is less bad than Gore.  Hell, I could even respect someone who voted for Gore if they could make a factual, logical case _why_ they are _for_ Gore. TC, R

Response:

Did you learn just from just from  rush or have you studied Joseph Goebbels? It was he who said " A lie told first is the truth" and  "  lie told often is the truth".  When questioned evade and attack the accuser".  The "Oil release…"  string had hundreds of responses mostly evaded, or replied to with condescending retorts but few facts.   Besides the ones I’ve suggested there’s lots of  alt.rush.*** groups that would welcome  you post. BJC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you a shill?  Is someone paying you to do this? I see all your post come in "working hours" and very few are on the topic of flyfishing.  There were very few posts of any that I recall before the election started. Will you be gone when Bush looses ?  Here’s some suggestions for more appropiate places to post., You can find more I’m sure. BJC Oddly, you seem to read and respond to most, if not all.  Are _you_ a shill?  And when did the election start?  As to "on-topic," Bwa-ha-ha-ha…

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This is just pathetic, Richard. I’m starting to feel sorry for you. — Aw, Steve, spoken like a true limo liberal.   So sad, Richard. I count you as a friend and I hope for a speedy recovery. Let’s just go fishing sometime and put this ugly political shit behind us.

Fine with me – as I said, I’m content to agree to disagree.  I think everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I even truly respect the well-thought-out ones that differ from my own.  I also hope you have a speedy recovery <G. BTW, I’ve never been in a limo in my life…

Now THAT’S sad…<G TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Did you learn just from just from  rush or have you studied Joseph Goebbels? It was he who said " A lie told first is the truth" and  "  lie told often is the truth".  When questioned evade and attack the accuser".  The "Oil release…"  string had hundreds of responses mostly evaded, or replied to with condescending retorts but few facts.  

Guten Tag, Herr Sch… Oops.. Well now, see?   Here is something we can agree on…you are absolutely correct – I posted facts, and cites as I saw requested, yet I saw no controverting facts posted, and when I asked direct questions, they were evaded.  So far, you have posted none, but simply responded with (poorly written) attacks.  I guess that’s OK, since you are basically a troll, so end of subthread for me…

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Question:

I will be going to Alaska this summer and would like to fly fish for anything.  I am an avid hiker and will be hiking in Denali National Park, the Wrangell-st.elias National Park as well as the entire Kenai Peninsula and Prince William sound region.  Rivers that I can hike to and fish would be ideal.  Is there anyone who has been to that region that might have any information about what there is to fish for and where I could access the best spots on rivers. Tight lines, Brent

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I will be going to Alaska this summer and would like to fly fish for anything.  I am an avid hiker and will be hiking in Denali National Park, the Wrangell-st.elias National Park as well as the entire Kenai Peninsula and Prince William sound region.  Rivers that I can hike to and fish would be ideal.  Is there anyone who has been to that region that might have any information about what there is to fish for and where I could access the best spots on rivers. Tight lines, Brent

You are hiking the entire Kenai and Prince Williams Sound. Are you sure you have a map that shows a scale? Anyway, I would be more worried about my boots then the fishing.  Walt in Juneau, AK.

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I apologize for the confusion.  These are general areas that I am considering.  I only plan on going to Denali for a week and then one other specific place for a week.  I would love some input as to which areas would give me the best opportunities for good hiking and GREAT fishing in July.  I would want to fish for trout or salmon.  (I’m not picky). Any response would be helpful. Thanks, Brent – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be going to Alaska this summer and would like to fly fish for anything.  I am an avid hiker and will be hiking in Denali National Park, the Wrangell-st.elias National Park as well as the entire Kenai Peninsula and Prince William sound region.  Rivers that I can hike to and fish would be ideal.  Is there anyone who has been to that region that might have any information about what there is to fish for and where I could access the best spots on rivers. Tight lines, Brent You are hiking the entire Kenai and Prince Williams Sound. Are you sure you have a map that shows a scale? Anyway, I would be more worried about my boots then the fishing.  Walt in Juneau, AK.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will be going to Alaska this summer and would like to fly fish for anything.  I am an avid hiker and will be hiking in Denali National Park, the Wrangell-st.elias National Park as well as the entire Kenai Peninsula and Prince William sound region.  Rivers that I can hike to and fish would be ideal.  Is there anyone who has been to that region that might have any information about what there is to fish for and where I could access the best spots on rivers. Tight lines, Brent You are hiking the entire Kenai and Prince Williams Sound. Are you sure you have a map that shows a scale? Anyway, I would be more worried about my boots then the fishing.  Walt in Juneau, AK. Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en" <html &nbsp; <blockquote TYPE=CITEI will be going to Alaska this summer and would like to fly fish for <branything.&nbsp; I am an avid hiker and will be hiking in Denali National <brPark, the Wrangell-st.elias National Park as well as the entire Kenai <brPeninsula and Prince William sound region.&nbsp; Rivers that I can hike to <brand fish would be ideal.&nbsp; Is there anyone who has been to that region <brthat might have any information about what there is to fish for and <brwhere I could access the best spots on rivers. <pTight lines, <pBrent</blockquote You are hiking the <ientire Kenai and Prince Williams Sound.</i Are you sure you have a map that shows a scale? Anyway, I would be more worried about my boots then the fishing.&nbsp; Walt in Juneau, AK.</html At Denali call Glacier Expeditions toll Free 1-877-880-9045 they kn

Before you buy.

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Question:

I’ve got the reports coming in from the MassWildlife.  They are generally posted on Fridays, but let’s just say when I get them, you get them.  http://www.fishine.com — Mark Cahill Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.fishingne.com The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Editorial Director http://www.reel-time.com/

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Uh, that url is actually http://www.fishingne.com Sorry! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got the reports coming in from the MassWildlife.  They are generally posted on Fridays, but let’s just say when I get them, you get them.  http://www.fishine.com — Mark Cahill Mark Cahill’s Fishing New England – Daily Fishing News http://www.fishingne.com The Internet Journal of Saltwater Fly Fishing – Editorial Director http://www.reel-time.com/

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Question:

Does anyone know of any flyfishing in the Carlsbad New Mexico area? Thanks in advance for your help. Al Carlton

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Does anyone know of any flyfishing in the Carlsbad New Mexico area? Thanks

in advance for your help. Al Carlton<<< Warmwater fly-fishing? Or, trout?  For warmwater, consult a local guide or fly-fishing group for topwater action at, darn, what’s the name of that new lake they just filled about 10 years ago. Ah well, you probably know what I’m talking about. For trout, head west. Look around the Ruidoso area for the Rio Penasco and Rio Ruidoso, or for flat water fly angling, check out Bonito Lake, Grindstone and others in the area. Grab a copy of Fishing Waters of New Mexico from the Game and Fish district officer in your area (check the state listings in the phone book for Game and Fish). You might also find this at a local tourism bureau or chamber of commerce. Drop me a note if you need more help, or more solid information. Darren Darren Marcy Crouch Mesa, N.M. 505-333-2222

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Question:

Has anyone tried fly fishing for catfish? What type of flys did you use have suggestions.

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Has anyone tried fly fishing for catfish? What type of flys did you use have suggestions. Try hand grenades.  Be sure to use a tapered leader.

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Question:

"Living toys" are kept in aquariums.  Wild game fish thrive in the rivers, lakes, estuaries and oceans of the world.  Responsible human management of those fisheries includes a number of strategies, each intended to enhance a particular population of game.  Among those strategies is mandated C&R. Woods Hole, MA   USA

IMHO, C&R may be an extremely effective management tool but it is not the only, or most likely the best, way to protect/enhance the population.  The best way would not include fishing.  Unless there are too many fish, fishing will not help the population, C&R or C&K. Netting overpopulated areas would serve if there are too many fish.  On the plus side, C&R lets fishermen catch as many fish as they want.  C&R is the best management tool to protect the population and let anglers catch unlimited amounts of fish.  Since no sane person would ban fishing, and anglers would rather catch more instead of less fish C&R is thriving. But…C&R is disrespectful to fish.  No one can say catching a fish for your own enjoyment, with no intention of using it, is respectful to fish. Do fish deserve respect? Regards, Nicolo

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IMHO, C&R may be an extremely effective management tool but it is not the only, or most likely the best, way to protect/enhance the population.  The best way would not include fishing.  Unless there are too many fish, fishing will not help the population, C&R or C&K.

I see what you mean, but my view is that fishing often _can_ help the population, in the following manner: when anglers have access to a thriving fishery, they naturally want to preserve and protect it.  They become advocates for the fishery against all sorts of threats, such as pollution, or obstacles to anadromous fish passage.  Anglers start to realize that spawning sites and juvenile habitat need to be protected, in order to have lots of adult fish to catch.  And they start to see that overfishing, whether by sportsmen or commercial fishermen, will damage the good things that they now enjoy. The best way to protect/enhance a fish population would indeed not include fishing, _IF_ fishing were the only impact on the fish population.  But there are typically many diverse impacts which must be addressed. Responsible anglers often contribute far more to a fishery through advocacy than they take from the fishery in dead fish.  When the net result of angler-based advocacy is positive, then fishing truly helps the population.  Where there is no advocacy… when no one cares enough about what happens to a fish population… then all too often various environmental impacts trigger a severe decline in the population. But…C&R is disrespectful to fish.  No one can say catching a fish for your own enjoyment, with no intention of using it, is respectful to fish.

Well, I can say it.  Indeed, I am glad to say that I often have no intention of "using" a fish.  I am not always a consumer.  I try to be a contributor.  There are some places in the world which have wild fish, instead of stagnant pools, because I and others were advocates for those fisheries.  When I catch one of these fish, and release it unharmed… then I do show respect, both for wild fish and for the efforts of those who protected the resource. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild.   Shouldn’t we ? TimW

I don’t think the fish are ever a willing participant, Tim, but to me it is not necessarily the actual killing of the fish that differentiates the sport from golf. Rather, it’s the deception and following struggle, which certainly (at least from the fish’ view) bears the element of life and death regardless of whether I intend to keep and kill or not. There are, though, points at which for me the sport loses something. If the fish were to lose the fight/flight instinct and just passively swim to the bank in surrender, this would reduce the sport to more of a casting contest, and I would not like this. If we never killed a fish and wound up with a stunted, gullible population it would diminish my enjoyment. This is why I gave up fishing freestone headwaters where a 4" brookie will pound anything that hits the water (BTW they’re great eating!). Kept me full while camping, but was not overly challenging. If our behavior were to actually break the spirit of the fish we catch, then I would say ‘that’s enough’. That said, I’ve never seen a fish with a broken spirit. I grew up on and spent most of my life fishing the ocean, where pretty much everything you catch is migratory. It’s not like a pond where trout can almost become tame, every minute of these fish’s life is a fight for survival. I with my fly rod am just one more thing it has to deal with. A mackerel may bite me off today and wind up tuna chow in Fundy next month. So I see no real danger of breeding out the fight or flight instinct in this environment, at least as I have experienced it. What was wild still is. And yes, it is the element of life and death that keeps it wild, but the perspective that does so is the fish’s, not ours. So for me to believe that C&Ring is disrespect- ful I have to believe that the schoolie striper I hook is consciously thinking "Oh no problem this is a size one clouser. This guy will just release me anyway, ho hum." I think highly of stripers, but can’t stretch it that far. See Ya,                                                 jc

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Everyone surely has an opinion about this, and here’s mine: If you never actually "kill" a fish (or at least tell yourself you don’t) then do you truly understand what you’re doing when you fish?   Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Hi Jeff, I usually try to release the fish while it’s still in the water.  The Ketchum Release tool is fairly good for that or make a release tool of your own out of a short piece of 1/2" dowel and a coffee cup hook.   Either way the fish is not removed from the water.  If I get into a really big fish I get a couple of runs out of it and rather than stress the fish landing it I’ll throw a roll cast or two at it and often they will be release none the worse for the wear. Regarding the slot limit question:  If I catch a fish, it’s damaged, and is within the slot limit, I release it — it’s the law.  One of the things the guides I work with have started doing is avoid fishing with hook larger than #4.  The larger hooks just cause too much damage, especially on smaller fish. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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There is no way around harming a fish.  Any aquarist knows how sensitive the fishes are with regards to stress induced by fright, temperature extremes, etc.  They don’t always die right away, if at all, but they often will develop problems if handled poorly. Thus, out of respect, we do not ‘tap’ on the glass of an aquarium, out of respect.  Even though it is a lot of fun and does not kill the fish.  Do we still agree ?

A fisheries biologist and ecologist, for whom I’ve worked, has studied the destruction of riverine habitat in Brazil, from which a lot of the tropical fish that we keep in aquariums have been imported.  These fish are torn from their native habitat, and species which occupy differing ecological niches are thrown together haphazardly in aquaria, merely to please human eyes.  I think I could build a case to call these activities "C&I" – Catch and Imprison.  And if I wanted to be tiresome I could lecture at great length upon the subject. Meanwhile, I practice C&R – catch and release.  Like everyone else I’ve met who practices C&R, I occasionally kill and eat a few fish too, though never on mandated C&R waters.  As I’ve said before, C&R is a management tool which works extremely well to preserve high-quality angling on _some_ waters with _some_ species.  Some fisheries work well with total catch and release in a portion of a river, such as the little river on which I and others carried out a twenty-year environmental restoration ( This was private, volunteer effort and expense to enhance public water.  We asked for nothing else from state government than permits to work in-stream, and a biologist to check our work to ensure that we did no harm.  Thirteen years into the project, we asked for and received one more thing… C&R status for 1.25 miles of river that we thoroughly restored.  It’s C&K above and below).  Other fisheries work well with a mixture of mandated C&R and allowed C&K.  I cite the provincial management of the Atlantic salmon fishery in New Brunswick, Canada, as a good example of this.  Still other fisheries, such as a local, shallow pond where bluegills are the top predator, would almost certainly be well-managed as complete C&K fisheries.  All three fisheries cited are wild fisheries.  They need to managed differently to ensure healthy, wild populations of game fish.  When anglers perceive that they have a stake in the success of the fishery (whether C&R or C&K), some of them become advocates to protect and enhance it.  Thus the continuity of wild fisheries can be enhanced by responsible sportmen’s participation. It is our duty to treat the beasts with dignity and respect them for what they are, animals.  With a distinct place and purpose on the food chain.  Not living toys. We do not kick dogs, we do not chase deer to exhaustion and we should not practice pure C&R on a wild population of fish.

"Living toys" are kept in aquariums.  Wild game fish thrive in the rivers, lakes, estuaries and oceans of the world.  Responsible human management of those fisheries includes a number of strategies, each intended to enhance a particular population of game.  Among those strategies is mandated C&R. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW Nice try but not relevant.

Uh, please…indulge me… uh, why isn’t it relevent ? Let’s say that in 1966 as a hunting management strategy, "shoot and release" was thought up by some simpleton in F&G.  Turns out, shooting rubber tipped arrows at big game is one HELL of a lot of fun AND allowed those big bucks to sow their seeds for another year.  Would this not be very close to C&R ? TimW

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Let’s say that in 1966 as a hunting management strategy, "shoot and release" was thought up by some simpleton in F&G.  Turns out, shooting rubber tipped arrows at big game is one HELL of a lot of fun AND allowed those big bucks to sow their seeds for another year.  Would this not be very close to C&R ?

Sure, but I thought your point was that one shouldn’t fish unless they wanted to eat the fish. When I hunt I plan on eating what I shoot but that’s not always the case when I fish (not that I shoot fish of course<g). If we fish only for food they why bother with fly fishing, why not just use nets? Charlie…

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[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back.

Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW

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[some deleted] although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Try rubber tipped arrows on large game ! What a Gas !!!! TimW

Nice try but not relevant. Charlie…

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I assert my right to hunt and fish; I assert my right to kill or release; I only accept the absolute rule that this is done with respect for the population (which may mean mandatory C&R, catch limits, slot limits, or other management tools) and other sportsmen.

Well said. I saw a bumper sticker the other day: "BE AN ETHICAL SPORTSMAN, PRACTICE C&R" *this* dogma causes my dogma. TimW

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We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

First off Lon,  what a great post.  I really appreciate the effort to help me quantify somehow the ethics of harassing, hurting and killing a wild animal for pleasure only.  You did an extremely admirable job.  Unfortunately, for me, I have heard these arguments in the past.  I have deleted some text, but hope that I preserved the context… I am not terribly familiar with aboriginal animism, but if I’m not mistaken, your position sounds kind of similar to the ethical view of animistic hunter cultures (note that I’m not saying that’s what it is or how it was derived). The idea that *not* killing the animal you pursue disrespects it, though I grasp the premise, still bewilders me.

To chase an animal, say a deer, to exhaustion on snowmobile purely for fun would be disrespectful of the animal.  Do we agree ?  To stalk the same deer and kill it for food and use of the hide would be to place it in its intended role in the food chain and give it the respect it deserves.  Do we still agree ?  That is, the deer is an animal and part of the food chain. If you have regard and respect for it (which I certainly believe I do), have gone out of your way not to intentionally harm it (i.e. retrieved as quickly as possible, used barbless hooks, released w/o touching, etc.), I hold that you have treated the animal with as much dignity and respect as possible for sport quarry.

There is no way around harming a fish.  Any aquarist knows how sensitive the fishes are with regards to stress induced by fright, temperature extremes, etc.  They don’t always die right away, if at all, but they often will develop problems if handled poorly. Thus, out of respect, we do not ‘tap’ on the glass of an aquarium, out of respect.  Even though it is a lot of fun and does not kill the fish.  Do we still agree ? Your viewpoint (I think) holds that the sport should not exist as sport only, that only the harvesting activity morally justifies one’s doing it. Sounds Native American (one strain of the animism that I noted) to me.

Well, that’s where I make my home my good friend.  And I don’t quickly dismiss the ethics of a society that has dwelled here for more than 10000 years before christ.  So, I guess that I do agree with you.  Further I am ashamed at the actions of my ancestors for forcing the natives off the land as further evidence that we as a race can be pretty big dickheads. Emminent domain, my ass, but I digress.   I would buy your view if we were living in a hunter / gatherer culture. Buying it otherwise I believe would mean that *everyone* who fished because they liked the sport but who was not doing it to put meat on the table should stop and do something else (like golfing) instead.

Yes, I am saying that.  A fisherman should like to and eat fish.  I feel that this is a basic tenet of the sport.   We are diverging our opinions here.  I posted the other day, "What will man’s interaction with nature become when all the world is a park ?". I am frightened by this thought, aren’t you ?  It is not a world that I even want to live in nor would I wish it on my children or thiers.  When I kill a wild animal for food, I feel connected with the world.  I am part of the food chain and there is no point denying that.  When we play with the fishes for sport, we do deny them their role on the food chain.   In summary, a) I *think* I get your point, Tim, and b) I think it’s an ethical (life, world) view to hold, if you are a participant in a hunter / gatherer culture, one which would in that context define you and bind you to the wheel of life.

Yes, exactly our ideas merge again here. My points are: 1) that for all it’s coherence in a hunter / gatherer culture, it doesn’t make much sense to me (i.e. seems out of context) in a modern, polyglot, industrialized society; and 2) that even accepting your notion that the animal is being disrespected to some degree by being used as the object of sport only in C&R fishing, C&R can justified if by nothing else by the attendant preserving effect on the resource. It is simply a fact that there are too many fishers for existing fisheries.

There are not too many fishers for existing fisheries.  This is the big lie.  That is like saying there are too many hunters for the existing deer or bear population. No, we limit the hunters and place seasons and restrictions on the game as needed to preserve the numbers of animals available and to keep the herds healthy and viable.   We are the humans.  I beleive that we are different then the beasts and I believe that we have been tasked as the caretakers of the earth, second only to the humbling forces of nature and time.  It is our duty to treat the beasts with dignity and respect them for what they are, animals.  With a distinct place and purpose on the food chain.  Not living toys. We do not kick dogs, we do not chase deer to exhaustion and we should not practice pure C&R on a wild population of fish.  This last sentence is key.  I feel that size/slot restrictions necessitating the release of too small or too large of a fish for the betterment of the fishery is an acceptable comprimise.  Here is your chance to show respect… You can say, "I am sorry to have caught you little fish, I hope that you live" or "Go forth and multiply you beautiful animal, I do not want to eat your flesh". I can only leave this thought with the simple question that has no simple answer.. Why do we not cast our lines for other orders and families of animals.   Lizards, snakes, chipmunks and squirrels, birds and bats, otters and ferrets. Why do we not ‘trap and release’ the larger animals if it is ok to do it with the fishes ? Clearly to hunt and kill all of the above is in my viewpoint of acceptable but I can not and will not tolerate wanton harassment of an animal just for fun. Hegel’s notion of philosophical argument and debate talked about the stages of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. For the few mos. that I’ve followed this debate in ROFF, I have not yet seen how it will ever get to the ’synthesis’ stage. There just seems to be no common ground.

I can never remember names or facts, but one discussion about the development of ethics discusses the possibility that doing something ‘because everyone else does’ is lower on the ethical scale then doing something ‘because it is universally accepted as right’. I can not simply subscribe to the notion that harassing and harming an animal for fun is right.  Only that it seems like a lot of people are doing it. But, hey! Talking about it can be fun, right?

Not only fun, but the way to the truth…please see.. http://www.ethics.ubc.ca/~chrismac/moral.decision.html Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines –

Same to you my friend, TimW Fishing less these days and enjoying it more than I ever thought possible.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW Is that any way to show the fish respect?!?  Shame on you. Tsk Tsk tsk

NO ! It’s a way to make it an inch longer so my truck doesn’t get seized by the game warden that isn’t ever there, except when I’m caryying a fish 1/32 inch shy of being legal back to it.  Never stretch a fish while it is still alive, that would be cruel and disrespectful. TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

No doubt the philosophical argument will continue for decades (or at least as long as there are any rivers left which will support fish). Fishing is a blood sport, and the element of life and death must be maintained, but not necessarily exclusively. The mere fact that fish which have caught and properly released will come back on the feed in short order convinces me that they are not irreparably harmed by the process. This is also true in the long term, next day, week, month, or year. C&R in and of itself shows no respect for the fish, the only respect is shown when the release is done properly. For example, a fish removed from the hook and then thrown into the water is being shown no respect, it is being treated like an old boot. We have the power of life and death over animals for which we hunt or fish. An ethical hunter may sight in on a small, but legal, deer and then choose not to shoot it, the equivalent to C&R (properly done). Instilling fear in a wild animal (if the concept even exists in fish–with which I do not agree) occurs every time we walk about. Spook a deer, a duck, a partridge, and you have, by your choice to walk in the woods, paddle on a lake, or canoe a river, caused an animal to feel fear. I assert my right to hunt and fish; I assert my right to kill or release; I only accept the absolute rule that this is done with respect for the population (which may mean mandatory C&R, catch limits, slot limits, or other management tools) and other sportsmen. Paul Marriner

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<snip Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf.

<snip In N.Georgia there are a number of stocked streams where a lot of people just follow the trucks around and ‘harvest’ fish to fill their freezers. Is this more sporting than C&R? I don’t really know. I do know some people who fish that don’t eat fish. This always seemed pointless to me until I went fishing for bones, permit and tarpon, which I don’t eat. I guess I just enjoy being there (fishing) too much to worry about the finer points, although one of the things I have always enjoyed about fishing over hunting is that you _can_ put them back. Not much of an answer, but my $.02 anyway. Charlie…

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If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men.   Back to sports… TimW

Is that any way to show the fish respect?!?  Shame on you. Tsk Tsk tsk Mike

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We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild. Shouldn’t we ? TimW

I am not terribly familiar with aboriginal animism, but if I’m not mistaken, your position sounds kind of similar to the ethical view of animistic hunter cultures (note that I’m not saying that’s what it is or how it was derived). The idea that *not* killing the animal you pursue disrespects it, though I grasp the premise, still bewilders me. If you have regard and respect for it (which I certainly believe I do), have gone out of your way not to intentionally harm it (i.e. retrieved as quickly as possible, used barbless hooks, released w/o touching, etc.), I hold that you have treated the animal with as much dignity and respect as possible for sport quarry. Your viewpoint (I think) holds that the sport should not exist as sport only, that only the harvesting activity morally justifies one’s doing it. Sounds Native American (one strain of the animism that I noted) to me. I would buy your view if we were living in a hunter / gatherer culture. Buying it otherwise I believe would mean that *everyone* who fished because they liked the sport but who was not doing it to put meat on the table should stop and do something else (like golfing) instead. In summary, a) I *think* I get your point, Tim, and b) I think it’s an ethical (life, world) view to hold, if you are a participant in a hunter / gatherer culture, one which would in that context define you and bind you to the wheel of life. My points are: 1) that for all it’s coherence in a hunter / gatherer culture, it doesn’t make much sense to me (i.e. seems out of context) in a modern, polyglot, industrialized society; and 2) that even accepting your notion that the animal is being disrespected to some degree by being used as the object of sport only in C&R fishing, C&R can justified if by nothing else by the attendant preserving effect on the resource. It is simply a fact that there are too many fishers for existing fisheries. Hegel’s notion of philosophical argument and debate talked about the stages of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. For the few mos. that I’ve followed this debate in ROFF, I have not yet seen how it will ever get to the ’synthesis’ stage. There just seems to be no common ground. But, hey! Talking about it can be fun, right? Tight lines and, respective to forks, light tines – Lon Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Fly Fisher and Cooking Enthusiast "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tim Walker writes: What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild.   Shouldn’t we ? TimW

Tim, this is starting to haunt me.  I think recognizing and appreciating that as hunters and fishermen we are involved in a dance of life and death is essential to respect the creatures we hunt and fish for. Many flyfishermen turn up their noses at bait guys….and think they are less refined and care less for their quarry than we the elite do.  What a crock!!!  A few years ago I was fishing some (well known) lakes during iceout in Montana.  Huge rainbows come in for a false spawn along the shore.  I remember this group of 4 guys with two guide s whooping and hollering catching fish….picking them up out of the water and holding them for minutes at a time while photos were taken……there were dead fish in the water all along the area they had been……After every photo they carefully released their quarry……. I’m afraid though that whether one fishes with bait or a fly, whether one C&R’s or knocks everything on the head,  you will always have slobs.  Some slobs wear Orvis and stomach pump every fish they catch…. other slobs use worms.  The best fisherman I know is a (fairly well to do) friend of mine here in southern Wisconsin.  He doesn’t know a Baetis from a Stonefly.  His favorite "fly"?  Chub Tails.  He’s a god with a lightweight spinning outfit.  Gary Borger wouldn’t stand a chance against him.  When he catches a fish he gets it in quick….if he thinks he hurt it…he keeps it…..If the fish isn’t hurt it usually goes back in……he quits fishing when he’s got enough for dinner for he and his wife……he give a lot of money to wild life organizations….. I wish there were more like him…. jim bucklew madison, wisconsin

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If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men.   Back to sports… TimW

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ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

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If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do??? Did you know that if you step on the middle of a 15 inch fish, it easily distorts longitudinally that additional inch. Just kidding men. Back to sports… TimW

Did you see that? T-Bone’s karma just ran over his dogma. Mitch

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ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish.

- Use an appropriately sized leader/tippet so you can bring the fish in quickly – Use barbless hooks to minimize any handling of the fish to get the hook out – Gently cradle the fish while still in the water, and with a good pair of hemostats kept at the ready you can usually turn the hook out quite easily. If you *have* to handle the fish, try to roll it out of the water on its back – the fish will usually remain still – and quickly extract the hook. Remember that every second that the fish is out of the water is damaging it’s gill structure (especially true with rainbows) – If the fish is showing any signs of stress (especially if the water temps are above 65F and/or after any lengthy fight) continue to cradle the fish gently in calm water at least a couple of feet deep until it’s recovered enough to swim with strength. Don’t stick the fish face first into rapids – that could actually drown it – and shallow water appears to unnerve fish from my experience – so don’t try to revive them while standing in 6" of water). – There’s rarely if ever any need to "swish" or "pump" the fish in the water. This is usually more disorienting than helpful, and requires significantly greater handling of the fish (which negatively affects the slime and can cause damage to internal organs). – Observe the fish to determine if it’s working it’s gills steadily (should be quite obvious) and keep cradling the fish until it swims away on its own (should be a *determined* effort on the fish’s part – don’t let it just float away as it could well turtle and drown). Use gentle persuasion (just curl your hands a bit) to keep the fish with you until you’re reasonably certain that the fish really wants to move on, then let it swim out of your opened hands. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up.

I completely agree with the guide. BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

The law is the law, and I’d have to let it go. If nothing else, you can be sure that it won’t be wasted. Either an osprey or heron or other bird will feed on it, or an otter or some other mammal will eat it, or the crawfish will enjoy it… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts   < <        Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely             to be shared by my employer, etc…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ROFF, TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish. I’ve heard conflicting messages about releasing trout. For example, gently move the fish back and forth in the water to help revive it. After spending a day with a guide on the South Platee this year he said moving the fish back and forth can spook it and cause it to bolt from your grasp, only to travel just out of reach and turn belly up. Jeff Anderson BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

I catch a lot of fish that need to be returned, as I fish for stripers and our minimum size is 36" (in Me. anyways). Having caught thousands of sub legal stripers I’d have to guess that well over 95% of them wind up lip hooked, or sometimes in the roof of the mouth (esp. w/clousers), but easy to release cleanly. Now and then one will take the hook very deep, and though I cut the line and release it I’m not as optimistic about its survival. Thing is, if it dies it will just change its place in the food chain, its meat feeding crabs, lobsters, minnows which in turn will feed other stripers, so I don’t worry about it. I’ve heard some guys, grousing about the high limits, complaining what a waste it is that they have to return this fish because ‘it swallowed the hook and is going to die anyway’. These people would like to take the fish home instead of ‘wasting’ it. The problem with this is, having fished often with these guys, they would always find a way to deeply hook a fish, thus subverting the slot limit. I’ve seen guys fishing cut herring lip hook and cleanly release 20 fish in a row, but if this loophole were available they would simply hold back a minute before setting the hook, gut hook them and ‘have’ to keep them to prevent waste. IMO you’d see a lot of bait guys carrying off schoolie bass in this case. Better to try your best to cut the line fast, revive the fish as best as possible, and at worst case let it feed other fish than give those who would cheat an open door.                                                 jc

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TimW brings ups some good points about C&R that need to be addressed. Released fish do die!! I’d like here some comments from experienced anglers and guides about appropriate methods for C&R so we can attempt to reduce the mortality percentages when we do release fish.

This, however, is not what torments me…mortality studies and techniques for releasing fish are well published and taught in the first day of the Orvis brainwashing, er uh, flyfishing programs. What if all the fish survived, all the time. Should we still fish for them with no intention of ever harvesting them ? This question is my burden. My fear is that the sport loses all of the qualities which make it a sport at that exact juncture and it becomes a meaningless pastime, like golf. The fish becoming an unwilling participant, the golf ball, if you will. I can not imagine anything more disrespectful towards wilderness then this, with the possible exception of putting a silly hat and necktie on the head mount of a cinnamon brown bear.  Our leaders in C&R flyfishing in Basalt, the famous Bill Fitzimmons of Taylor Creek Anglers has such an attrocity in his fly shop turned fern bar.  The same people that tell me that C&R is respectful to the fish. No wonder I am confused. We *must* keep the element of life and death in the sport out of shear respect for all things wild.   Shouldn’t we ? TimW

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BTW, as a side note, If you were fishing in an area with a slot (12"-16" must be returned to water) and mortally hooked a fish in the slot what would you do???

Eat it. Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss,so WHATEVER I say is OK"

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Question:

I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

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I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

Why not give Winston a shout?  They are on the Web at http://flyfishers.com/winston.html They ought to be able to give some good recommendations. Regards          Rx F Fish "For Your Good Health, Fly Fish" URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

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I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

I would occasionally have a tip section loosen up on me too (different brand rod though). When I started waxing my ferrules to keep them in good shape and the loosening problem went away as a bonus.  Good luck! August Kristoferson http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts…

John — Wash the ferrules with a dishwashing detergent.  Rinse well and dry with paper towels.  After that try not to touch them with your fingers.   Good luck. -Ande Rychter

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I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

Try some paraffin or candle wax to lubricate the ferrule. If that doesn’t work I would send it back to Winston with a note. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate Try some paraffin or candle wax to lubricate the ferrule. If that doesn’t work I would send it back to Winston with a note. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Even if it does work, send it back to Winston as soon as you can.  Damn thats a Winston, not a Cortland!  They’d be mortified to even hear about this thread on the net!!! jg

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Question:

anyone have current conditions on knights ferry area of stanislaus thanks in advance

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Hey Ken , are you out there…? You should try Ken Lindsay at flyfishing online.  He will surely be able to help you out. I can’t find his address or # right now but he should be listed. Cheers — gp

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(Carlton Fung) writes: anyone have current conditions on knights ferry area of stanislaus thanks in advance

Yes,  it’s closed right now.  Opens back up the first of the year.  That section of the river is closed between Oct. 15th and Jan. 1st each year to allow the salmon to make their spawning run.  I believe the upper part of the Stan around Big Trees is still open, but you need to check the reg’s to be sure.

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check the regs – I believe the Stanislaus is closed until the end of the   year for the salmon to spawn.         gr

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I beleive the upper part of the Stan closes November 15.–Crashjibe

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Will be in L.A. last two weeks in January.  Would greatly appreciate any and all information and recommendations on good fishing within a one day range of LA. city limits

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writes: Will be in L.A. last two weeks in January.  Would greatly appreciate any and all information and recommendations on good fishing within a one day range of LA. city limits

Ocean or freshwater. Fly fishing only?

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