Question:

I have a photo of what you can expect to see in Yellowstone in August: http://www.ruralnetwork.net/%7Etroutbum/album/sp_miscellaneous/madiso… There must have been 100 people alongside the road watching these morons (and I don’t mean the elk). When you drive through the Park make sure to stop and get out of your car at every traffic jam. There’ll probably be some cool wildlife. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Cool picture, but not especially frightful. I fish in RMNP at least 20 days each season and I obliviously get that close to elk several times each year. The national park elk herds tend to be pretty docile; I don’t recall the last time I heard of anyone around here being hurt by one. Bull moose, on the other hand, scare the shit out of me. "rw" wrote I have a photo of what you can expect to see in Yellowstone in August:

http://www.ruralnetwork.net/%7Etroutbum/album/sp_miscellaneous/madiso… adison_elk.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There must have been 100 people alongside the road watching these morons (and I don’t mean the elk). When you drive through the Park make sure to stop and get out of your car at every traffic jam. There’ll probably be some cool wildlife.

Response:

Cool picture, but not especially frightful. I fish in RMNP at least 20 days each season and I obliviously get that close to elk several times each year. The national park elk herds tend to be pretty docile; I don’t recall the last time I heard of anyone around here being hurt by one. Bull moose, on the other hand, scare the shit out of me.

That bull had a harem of about 15 cows behind him, out of the picture. I’d have been out of the water pronto. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

Count me in.  Awfully touristy, but the company would more than make up for that.  I have been looking forward to especially seeing you again Ken — Warren Findley

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I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

Are the dates flexible at all, if so yes. I can’t go anywhere from the 4th to the 11th of any month. Not that I would expect anyone to change the dates just for me, but since it was early I’d thought I’d ask. The following week would be my birthday and there is no way my wife could say no <g — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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Good point.  The Labor Day cut-off is not as sharp as it used to be years ago.  Just too many people have taken up fly-fishing and more people have more flexibility in their work/vacation schedules.  It’s not until October or so until the streams are truly people-free.  Still, I don’t think the post-labor day crowds rival at all the August circus.  It would be helpful to have up-to-date info (based on this past year’s experience) on which areas/campgrounds are likely to be least crowded. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Two years ago we packed into Slough Creek, campground 8.  Before we went in we had some time to spend driving around Yellowstone and fishing a few creeks.  Some places were crowded, some weren’t.  One of the nicest fish I caught was in Soda Butte creek.  It was a short walk and no other people.   After Labor Day, my wife and I drove through the park both going and coming from a visit to friends in Stephensville, MT.  The streams were packed!  I visited Bud Lilly’s fly shop and the first thing the guy behind the counter said to me is, "If you’re here to book a guide, we’re full up for the next several weeks."  I guess everyone had the idea to wait until the kids were back in school.   In spite of this—have a clave and I’ll try to make it.  I like those short drives.  It’s only about 5 hours from home:)

Response:

Are the dates flexible at all, …

Well, yes and no. September is completely out of the question for us, Kristine has work commitments. I mentioned the first full week in August because traditionally the Yellowstone Institute has a full slate of interesting classes for the non-fishing folks like Kristine to attend. The Summer 2001 Course Catalog is due out any day now, will post a pointer when it appears. Big Dale, I couldn’t find the 2001 dates for the Livingston FFF Conclave on their website, you’re right it would be nice to gather either just before or just after. Do you know those dates ? — Ken Fortenberry

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Conclave on their website, you’re right it would be nice to gather either just before or just after. Do you know those dates ? –

The dates for the FFF conclave are Aug.6-11, but most often I attend only wed afternoon thru saturday, so if the clave is that week I could still make most of the clave. I sure as hell don’t want to miss fishing in the Yellowstone area with you guys a second year in a row. Besides, I need a fix of shopping in Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone. Let me know who to contact for cabin reservations in the park as I would rather plan this sooner than later knowing how the park fills up. Big Dale

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[snipped] I did have the opportunity to camp out in Yellowstone for 10 days in September once, though, and it was one of the most memorable trips of my life.  The elk are in full rut, and are right in the campgrounds.  Makes it a little hard to sleep when a monster bull is bugling right outside the tent, but it is very exciting.  You owe it to yourself to go there in the fall sometime if you haven’t yet.

Been there, done that, had to scramble into a tight bundle of lodge poles to avoid being skewered. /daytripper (That was one ornery bull elk…)

Response:

I think you misspelled "horny".  :-) Frank (ain’t gonna mount me) Church [snipped] Been there, done that, had to scramble into a tight bundle of lodge poles to avoid being skewered. /daytripper (That was one ornery bull elk…)

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ? Ken please count me in on this Clave….it will be my first and I can kill two birds with one stone!  Attend my first Clave and get the wife to Yellowstone.

Did anyone else notice the red flag?

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like those short drives.  It’s only about 5 hours from home:)

It is a lot longer drive from Dallas, but I would be willing. It would be nice if the clave was either the week before or the week after the FFFconclave in Livingston. My greatest regret of 2000 is not being able to make the Montana clave.. Big Dale

Response:

I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school.

Well, sure, that’s great, if you don’t have to be there at school to teach the kiddies! I would be seriously hot to go to a Yellowstone Clave in August, although the third or fourth week of August would be best for me, as I plan to be in British Columbia for the first half of Aug (see my other post), and would likely be driving back through Montana about that time. I did have the opportunity to camp out in Yellowstone for 10 days in September once, though, and it was one of the most memorable trips of my life.  The elk are in full rut, and are right in the campgrounds.  Makes it a little hard to sleep when a monster bull is bugling right outside the tent, but it is very exciting.  You owe it to yourself to go there in the fall sometime if you haven’t yet. Kevin

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Any interest ?

Count me in. KR

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Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that.

<Snip I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

Ken please count me in on this Clave….it will be my first and I can kill two birds with one stone!  Attend my first Clave and get the wife to Yellowstone. Ed "Luckyboy" Bleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Ken Fortenberry

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With all these claves coming up in the next year it might be a good idea to put an agenda somewhere on the web in order to keep track of what’s happening where, when, who to contact and how to get there. Maybe a good reason to revive www.roff.org? Herman

So far there’s talk (and more) about September in Maine, May in PA, and I think Michigan in March/April. – but I could be wrong.  A list with dates on a site would be a good idea. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree.  Based on several years’ experience (although I haven’t been there since 95), it will be much more pleasant after Labor Day.  There will still be a good number of other folks fishing, but it won’t be the madhouse August is.  Fishing is great throughout September. JR I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school.

  Two years ago we packed into Slough Creek, campground 8.  Before we went in we had some time to spend driving around Yellowstone and fishing a few creeks.  Some places were crowded, some weren’t.  One of the nicest fish I caught was in Soda Butte creek.  It was a short walk and no other people.   After Labor Day, my wife and I drove through the park both going and coming from a visit to friends in Stephensville, MT.  The streams were packed!  I visited Bud Lilly’s fly shop and the first thing the guy behind the counter said to me is, "If you’re here to book a guide, we’re full up for the next several weeks."  I guess everyone had the idea to wait until the kids were back in school.   In spite of this—have a clave and I’ll try to make it.  I like those short drives.  It’s only about 5 hours from home:) Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Any interest ?

Me. Joel Axelrad

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I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded.

I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school. Willi

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I agree.  Based on several years’ experience (although I haven’t been there since 95), it will be much more pleasant after Labor Day.  There will still be a good number of other folks fishing, but it won’t be the madhouse August is.  Fishing is great throughout September. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school.

Response:

With all these claves coming up in the next year it might be a good idea to put an agenda somewhere on the web in order to keep track of what’s happening where, when, who to contact and how to get there. Maybe a good reason to revive www.roff.org? Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. We’ve got Wolfie’s steelhead expedition in late March early April, Tom’s Spring ‘Clave on the legendary limestone creeks of Pennsylvania in May, but nothing planned yet for anything west of the Mississip’ during the summer of 2001. Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ? — Ken Fortenberry

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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Last week in August, first week in September – whenever the fishing is good and the crowds are lowest; count me in! Bob in El Paso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had to miss last year,s western clave, but I,m interested in going out in August.  Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

Response:

Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. We’ve got Wolfie’s steelhead expedition in late March early April, Tom’s Spring ‘Clave on the legendary limestone creeks of Pennsylvania in May, but nothing planned yet for anything west of the Mississip’ during the summer of 2001. Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ? — Ken Fortenberry

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Had to miss last year,s western clave, but I,m interested in going out in August.  Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. We’ve got Wolfie’s steelhead expedition in late March early April, Tom’s Spring ‘Clave on the legendary limestone creeks of Pennsylvania in May, but nothing planned yet for anything west of the Mississip’ during the summer of 2001. Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I include the Madison, Henry’s Lake, the Gallatin, etc, in "Yellowstone". Going all that way might as well hit the biggies… /daytripper (Gonna think about it)

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Question:

I’ve got to tell ya, the dogs haven’t been real happy with me and my broken foot. No more rousing games of soccer, it takes me forever to even get up or down the stairs or across the room. We’re playing other games, but I’ve got to be careful for quite a while yet. Walking aross the yard is a trick; lumpy ground is really hard to deal with. And I was the one who played with the dogs the most. Sigh. So the other day, I’m upstairs and I hear the door open (must be husband coming in) and then I hear strange dog sounds. So I hobble downstairs and I see this strange tangle of dogs and a human on the floor sort of rolling around in a ball. They heard me and they suddenly all stopped and looked at me, my husband looking the most sheepish of all. Silly hub’n puppies!

Response:

nice to know he can step in A fun doggy game for sitting humans is the cat intended fishing pole game  a stick a string (preferably strong ones with a sproingy stick) and a soft toy to fly around ahead of the galloping herd can be lots of fun the dog that catches it has to fetch and give so the game can continue Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got to tell ya, the dogs haven’t been real happy with me and my broken foot. No more rousing games of soccer, it takes me forever to even get up or down the stairs or across the room. We’re playing other games, but I’ve got to be careful for quite a while yet. Walking aross the yard is a trick; lumpy ground is really hard to deal with. And I was the one who played with the dogs the most. Sigh. So the other day, I’m upstairs and I hear the door open (must be husband coming in) and then I hear strange dog sounds. So I hobble downstairs and I see this strange tangle of dogs and a human on the floor sort of rolling around in a ball. They heard me and they suddenly all stopped and looked at me, my husband looking the most sheepish of all. Silly hub’n puppies!

Response:

nice to know he can step in A fun doggy game for sitting humans is the cat intended fishing pole game a stick a string (preferably strong ones with a sproingy stick) and a soft toy to fly around ahead of the galloping herd can be lots of fun the dog that catches it has to fetch and give so the game can continue Nancy

I think it’s harder on me than on the dogs. WAAAAAAAAAA! I wanna go out and play doggie soccer! <snivel donna

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Question:

 ___  Snipped notice: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also of major importance is the petroleum industry price increases which will be impacting fly fishing more than everyone realizes in the immediate future.  That will include increases in plastic parts found in the trade, to waders, shoes, fly boxes, you name it.  There is also a stunning increase in the price of cork.  This will increase the price of all fishing poles of any kind that has cork handles in them later this year.  Cork trees cannot keep up with the demand in Portugal.  I think there may now be a move to find a substitute material such as balsa wood, or even a synthetic that is acceptable by the public.  I only wonder what the fly fishing industry would accept without arguing or screaming about weight?  On one hand, we don’t like artificial materials on Bamboo Fly Rods and on the other, my choice would be prone to try Balsa wood because of its nice color and lighter weight.  THIS, I would like others to put their minds too and help us come up with some answers or possible solutions. As it stands right now, it looks like a $10 increase per cork fishing rod handle!  This is outrageous. This is a public service announcement which other manufacturers are not giving the public a chance to respond or help out with. Any ideas out there? — George Gehrke http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _____ Price increases will go into effect next week.  Bamboo items included.  We will honor all previous orders at the introductory prices we started off with in ROFF.  This notice in ROFF is in all fairness not a spam because the company was born in ROFF from challenges and dares initiated here. That aside, the venture is a success and this is the end of our efforts to maintain the barest of profit margins which will continue for only this week. Monday will be a new day and our Bamboo Fly Rod Prices will reflect a more realistic Ayn Rand perspective. Also of major importance is the petroleum industry price increases which will be impacting fly fishing more than everyone realizes in the immediate future.  That will include increases in plastic parts found in the trade, to waders, shoes, fly boxes, you name it.  There is also a stunning increase in the price of cork.  This will increase the price of all fishing poles of any kind that has cork handles in them later this year.  Cork trees cannot keep up with the demand in Portugal.  I think there may now be a move to find a substitute material such as balsa wood, or even a synthetic that is acceptable by the public.  I only wonder what the fly fishing industry would accept without arguing or screaming about weight?  On one hand, we don’t like artificial materials on Bamboo Fly Rods and on the other, my choice would be prone to try Balsa wood because of its nice color and lighter weight.  THIS, I would like others to put their minds too and help us come up with some answers or possible solutions. As it stands right now, it looks like a $10 increase per cork fishing rod handle!  This is outrageous. This is a public service announcement which other manufacturers are not giving the public a chance to respond or help out with. Any ideas out there? — George Gehrke http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

– Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

Response:

_____ Price increases will go into effect next week.  Bamboo items included.  We will honor all previous orders at the introductory prices we started off with in ROFF.  This notice in ROFF is in all fairness not a spam because the company was born in ROFF from challenges and dares initiated here. That aside, the venture is a success and this is the end of our efforts to maintain the barest of profit margins which will continue for only this week.   Monday will be a new day and our Bamboo Fly Rod Prices will reflect a more realistic Ayn Rand perspective. Also of major importance is the petroleum industry price increases which will be impacting fly fishing more than everyone realizes in the immediate future.  That will include increases in plastic parts found in the trade, to waders, shoes, fly boxes, you name it.  There is also a stunning increase in the price of cork.  This will increase the price of all fishing poles of any kind that has cork handles in them later this year.  Cork trees cannot keep up with the demand in Portugal.  I think there may now be a move to find a substitute material such as balsa wood, or even a synthetic that is acceptable by the public.  I only wonder what the fly fishing industry would accept without arguing or screaming about weight?  On one hand, we don’t like artificial materials on Bamboo Fly Rods and on the other, my choice would be prone to try Balsa wood because of its nice color and lighter weight.  THIS, I would like others to put their minds too and help us come up with some answers or possible solutions.   As it stands right now, it looks like a $10 increase per cork fishing rod handle!  This is outrageous. This is a public service announcement which no other manufacturers are not giving the public a chance to respond or help out with. Any ideas out there? — George Gehrke http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Question:

Okay, so I am sure you are all pretty well starting to panic that I have up and left without so much as a good bye.  Well, you are wrong (I would have at least given an F you and the single finger salute).  Life has been busy and I have not had time to spend countless hours reading spam, garbage, and hate posts. As a matter of fact I tried coming back once before , but the time wasn’t right because I didn’t want to come back in the middle of a war. Anyways,  I will have the info everybody is seeking monday.  Sunday I am going fishing on the Madison and have planned a stop in Ennis to haggle with the innkeepers and inspect the premises.  Trying to do this shit over the phone really wasn’t working and I could only give rough estimates and was basically being blown off.  If you are camping there are several sites that are on a first come first serve basis for something like $5 a day.  Most fishing access also allow camping I have found.  There is one right on the edge of Ennis on the other side of the river where I have seen motorhomes, tents, ect.  This is where I am planning on setting up the base camp.  I will be arriving early to claim spots since they are first come first serve.   As far as hotels.  Monday will be the big announcement as to where.  If some kind of up front monetary fee is required then it will be each individual attendees responsible to make the arrangements.  I have fished this area a lot and it does get busy during the summer and people do make reservations a year in advance, but I have never found Ennis to be packed full with every motel, hotel, ect full.  I recommend that reservations be made though as I would like to keep everyone staying in rooms in one place for convenience sake. I have spent most of my time researching different fishing locations and what not. Don’t ask for names in advance because I am not giving them out until you show up at the clave.  Some are obvious like the Madison, but others do not get as much plublicity and are great fishing and I would like to keep them that way.  Pisses me off when I see more and more of my haunts starting to be advertised in ads here, in magazines and the fly shops and the crowds start growing.  I will not contribute to this disease! Don’t worry about bears.  If your number is up there is nothing you can do about it.  Bear spray (as with firearms) are more a comfort for the carrier than for effectiveness.  The reason I say bear spray as well is because the bear isn’t going to stop when you say "Time out!  The wind is coming from the wrong direction and will be ineffective unless you allow me to move over here."  Heard of some people doing more harm to themselves than what they did to the bear and all over a false charge to boot. Most of the places we will be fishing aren’t notorious bear hang outs.   I really do apologize for being out of touch for so long.  Hunting season kept me pretty busy and then life decided to get more complicated and I haven’t even had time to fish.  I sort of drifted off a little too far it seems.  But all is well and you will be seeing me around here more often (for better or worse). Now if I can only find a good worth while argument to get involved in. . . . . Time to start searching. Warren Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

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Due to the peculiarities of Usenet, I haven’t seen Warren’s original

Got it. Thanks. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Vern, I have added your name.   Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

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So George, now that you will be over here during that time will you or will you not be with the group?  I don’t know whether to you put your name down or not. Your other thread said you would be in the area but would not be mixing with the "bottom dwellers." Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

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Thanks for all of your hard work warren.  I’m still hoping to make it, it’s a long ways off for me yet though. I would be in the "camping" category. I’d be driving up from NM and probably bringing someone with me, maybe my significant other, or maybe someone who is a fly fisher. Thanks again Warren. bruiser aka bruce

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Due to the peculiarities of Usenet, I haven’t seen Warren’s original This sort of thing could be a problem in the future. Usenet in unreliable. It would be best to email people on the list directly (but also send a copy to ROFF). — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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I want one of those hats and shirts.  That is if you can get a shirt in my size, boys size 14.  Just tell me how much and I’ll send you a check.  Unless you demand a money order. Vern?  (The Big Little Man)

with stilts?  If not, I will bring you my motorized drift tube with trolling motor to get  you around the Henry’s Fork. No joke.  I will even provide the big marine battery and I bet you think I’m kidding!? If not, you will be welcome to command the front deck of my drift boat with a grand view of every prime trout you care to molest.  (If you find me) You will enjoy this trip Vern.   Mr.G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would like to be put on the list.  I’ve already told work that I’m taking time off.  I’m tying flies.  I’ve talked a co-worker in coming up as well.  Well, I think he’s coming.  Please put my name on the list.  I will be there. Vernon D. Ursenbach If your name is not on the list or you want it taken off the list please let me know. Tim Walker Jeffrey Miller Stephen Barnard (RW) Ken Fortenberry Mike S. Medintz Mark Anderson Wayne Harrison William Loehman Mark Faulkner Bruce aka Bruiser                                     mr.g. will be over here Charlie Choc John Iding David Snedeker Dave LaCourse Peter Charles Daytripper Big Dale Indian Joe Tom Brown Jon Cook Darin Minor Ed Miller Before you buy.

– http://www.gink.com/chat

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Warren I will handle the hats and shirts thing if you want. Dave

It’s a deal!  I suggest money in advance BTW, glad to see you are still around.  This is kind of like coming back home after a long time and getting back together with old friends and stuff. Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

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I want one of those hats and shirts.  That is if you can get a shirt in my size, boys size 14.  Just tell me how much and I’ll send you a check.  Unless you demand a money order. Vern Warren I will handle the hats and shirts thing if you want. Dave

Before you buy.

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I would like to be put on the list.  I’ve already told work that I’m taking time off.  I’m tying flies.  I’ve talked a co-worker in coming up as well.  Well, I think he’s coming.  Please put my name on the list.  I will be there. Vernon D. Ursenbach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If your name is not on the list or you want it taken off the list please let me know. Tim Walker Jeffrey Miller Stephen Barnard (RW) Ken Fortenberry Mike S. Medintz Mark Anderson Wayne Harrison William Loehman Mark Faulkner Bruce aka Bruiser Charlie Choc John Iding David Snedeker Dave LaCourse Peter Charles Daytripper Big Dale Indian Joe Tom Brown Jon Cook Darin Minor Ed Miller

Before you buy.

Response:

Warren I will handle the hats and shirts thing if you want. Dave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -One more thing.  Just so I get my numbers straight, how many people who are still interested in attending will be wanting rooms?  How many are willing/want to share?  I have the numbers from a few months ago, but need updated numbers. I was thinking that hats and tshirts for claves have all been done.  How about sweat shirts for the western clave?  Any volunteers to head this up? Here is the list of people I have who are interested in attending.  If your name is not on the list or you want it taken off the list please let me know. Tim Walker Jeffrey Miller Stephen Barnard (RW) Ken Fortenberry Mike S. Medintz Mark Anderson Wayne Harrison William Loehman Mark Faulkner Bruce aka Bruiser Charlie Choc John Iding David Snedeker Dave LaCourse Peter Charles Daytripper Big Dale Indian Joe Tom Brown Jon Cook Darin Minor Ed Miller Some people have indicated they are bringing guests/family members.  I am not responsible for any ethics that might be crossed or morals that  will be violated, for the record.  In no way am I responsible for anything other than fun and fishing and the other details for which I have voluntarily sacrificed myself. As far as meals go I was thinking that those will be taken care of by the individual.  We can make a nightly gathering at a local restaurant or cafe for those who want to show.  Other than that you are on your own.  After dinner perhaps drinking and debauchery by the fire at the campsites. I was also thinking that on one day, maybe the last day or the day before the last day we could have a BBQ after a morning fishing adventure followed by a fishing finale.  Maybe have some fresh caught BBQ’d fish, ribs, hamburgers ect. Maybe someone would be willing to organize a pot or something.  Gambling pot, not smoking substance or horticulture related pot.  Something like first fish of the day, biggest fish, smallest fish, stinky award for whoever gets skunked. Anyone want to volunteer for putting together a raffle or items for the raffle? Can’t have a clave without a raffle!  Don’t make me send my henchmen out to collect! Can anyone think of anything else?  Individuals or a group are welcome to volunteer for any of these ventures. That’s all for now. Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

Response:

Almost forgot.  For those of you who want to rent cars here is a list of places. Rentals: Avis 1-800-831-2847 or (406) 388-6414 (at Bozeman airport)         Free unlimited mileage rates available, weekend and weekly rentals, wide variety of fine GM cars, 4×4’s and mini vans, special local rates offered. Budget Rent A Car 1-800-527-0700 or (406) 388-4091 or www.drivebudget.com (at Bozeman airport)         Prearranged customer pick-up and drop-off available, 4×4 Explorers, 4×4 Suburbans, pick ups, mini vans, 15 passenger vans and cars of all sizes, unlimited mileage rates available. Enterprise Rent-A-Car 1-800-325-8007 or (406) 586-8010         Low everyday rates, plus weekend & holiday discounts, corporate and government rates, economoy to luxury cars, wagons, 4×4’s, ski-equipped vehicles, minivans, trucks and more, free pick-up from your home, office or repair shop. Hertz 1-800-654-3131 or (406) 388-6939 or hertz.com  (at airport)         4×4’s and minivans available National Car Rental 1-800-car-rent or (406) 388-6694 or national.car.com Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

Response:

One more thing.  Just so I get my numbers straight, how many people who are still interested in attending will be wanting rooms?  How many are willing/want to share?  I have the numbers from a few months ago, but need updated numbers. I was thinking that hats and tshirts for claves have all been done.  How about sweat shirts for the western clave?  Any volunteers to head this up? Here is the list of people I have who are interested in attending.  If your name is not on the list or you want it taken off the list please let me know. Tim Walker Jeffrey Miller   Stephen Barnard (RW) Ken Fortenberry   Mike S. Medintz   Mark Anderson   Wayne Harrison William Loehman Mark Faulkner   Bruce aka Bruiser Charlie Choc John Iding   David Snedeker   Dave LaCourse   Peter Charles   Daytripper Big Dale   Indian Joe   Tom Brown Jon Cook   Darin Minor Ed Miller Some people have indicated they are bringing guests/family members.  I am not responsible for any ethics that might be crossed or morals that  will be violated, for the record.  In no way am I responsible for anything other than fun and fishing and the other details for which I have voluntarily sacrificed myself. As far as meals go I was thinking that those will be taken care of by the individual.  We can make a nightly gathering at a local restaurant or cafe for those who want to show.  Other than that you are on your own.  After dinner perhaps drinking and debauchery by the fire at the campsites. I was also thinking that on one day, maybe the last day or the day before the last day we could have a BBQ after a morning fishing adventure followed by a fishing finale.  Maybe have some fresh caught BBQ’d fish, ribs, hamburgers ect. Maybe someone would be willing to organize a pot or something.  Gambling pot, not smoking substance or horticulture related pot.  Something like first fish of the day, biggest fish, smallest fish, stinky award for whoever gets skunked. Anyone want to volunteer for putting together a raffle or items for the raffle? Can’t have a clave without a raffle!  Don’t make me send my henchmen out to collect! Can anyone think of anything else?  Individuals or a group are welcome to volunteer for any of these ventures. That’s all for now. Warren Remember, men will come and men will go, but the streams and mountains go on forever. -Bob Carmichael

Response:

Question:

 Sounds perfectly doable to me, and in fact ,easier than say kip or calf body. The bulk thing can be a problem with hair fibers and on small bugs the poly post is preferred. I use flats  only because of habit and the "natural" look.  I like the poly or  antron post because of the various colors one can use . Try a black post some time in  a white  foam line and you will literally_ see_ what I mean That’s what interesting about tying, not much is chiseled or even written in stone , you can do pretty much as you please. There are techniques that should be learned and practiced only because trial and error over time has shown them to be the "best" way.Once you master those, you can sub this for that and create things that work for _you_ …that’s the fun part.    Have at it ..;-)

Harry, that’s a great explanation on tying parachutes.  Your photographer should take a bow, too. BTW, I’ve always used an antron loop to form the post which I clip off the top when done, to form the wing.  Your method of tying off solved one of my problems; I’ll try it next time. Peter

Response:

There is a very interesting material called spiderweb.  Salmon and steelheaders who tie their own roe sacks from nylon netting use it to tie off their spawn bags.  Basically you just wrap it around and around and it somehow sticks to itself (so it says on the packaging).  It looks as thin as 8/0.  It would make a good tie off thread for parachute hackle where you finish the hackle on the post not on the hook shank.  I believe this is the product that Hans van Klinken was talking about in his article www.algonet.se/~sjostran/English/10035.htm Inspired by van Klinken’s method but not wanting to rely on this very specialized spiderweb material, lately I’ve been tying off the head and leaving the hackle (already secured to the post at a much earlier step) for the last step.  I anchor my thread onto the post near the bottom. Then wind the hackle down.  Then tie of with a series of half-hitches – each one I can manipulate as it tightens down (with the hooked end of my whip finisher) so that it doesn’t trap any hackle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also BTW, is it better to tie the body first, or the parachute? If you tie the parachute first how do you keep the hackle out of the way when tieing the body?

Response:

I use a slightly different technique, which results in a "flatter" hackle. I tie the post in as normal, tie the hackle in at the top of the thread on the post,  which is shorter than "normal", varnish the post with thin clear varnish, take three turns of hackle down the post, and then three turns back up through the hackle, I then wind the thread down through the hackle, binding the hackle down as I go, and just whip finish at the bottom of the post.  Using a needle from underneath, allow more thin varnish to soak into the windings. It also works with just four turns of hackle, two up, two down, and the hackle is then very flat with few stray fibres. ( I thought this might be what rw was referring to, when he said his hackles were too "bushy", meaning too spread out over the post length ). I have also done this around the base of normal split feather wings on dry flies without any problems.  I have not had one come undone while fishing yet. One must be careful here not to twist the wings too much when winding and finishing is all. I also often flatten the wings and hackle between my thumb and forefinger so that they are horizontal. This makes a great spinner pattern, with all the advantages of a parachute, and practically none of the disadvantages. This is especially good for larger flies where two turns of longish hackle are more than sufficient. The support given by a horizontal hackle is much greater than that given by a vertical hackle just sitting on its points. Works great. It is easier to do if you tilt the fly in the vice, as Hans suggests in his article about the Klinkhamer Special. But you can do it with the fly in the normal plane if you wish.  If your post is stiff enough, it is no trouble to wind through the hackle with ordinary 6/0 thread as you would on a normal fly. Makes a very robust fly, and there are more turns of hackle to support the fly where you need them, and not spread out over a longer length of the post. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://connor.via.t-online.de/

Response:

I’ve had a demonstration by Hans van Klinken at the last Flyfair, tying the Klinkhammer in the fashion as on the mentioned webpage. It looks a bit awkward when you first see it, but try it! It’s a lot easier than it looks, sure made my parachutes a lot better. The key feature of spiderweb is it’s elasticity. Tie on as tight as you dare (its really, really thin) and it it will pull snug on itself, locking the hackle in the process. I think you can try thin nylon as an alternative.  Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a very interesting material called spiderweb.  Salmon and steelheaders who tie their own roe sacks from nylon netting use it to tie off their spawn bags.  Basically you just wrap it around and around and it somehow sticks to itself (so it says on the packaging).  It looks as thin as 8/0.  It would make a good tie off thread for parachute hackle where you finish the hackle on the post not on the hook shank.  I believe this is the product that Hans van Klinken was talking about in his article www.algonet.se/~sjostran/English/10035.htm Inspired by van Klinken’s method but not wanting to rely on this very specialized spiderweb material, lately I’ve been tying off the head and leaving the hackle (already secured to the post at a much earlier step) for the last step.  I anchor my thread onto the post near the bottom. Then wind the hackle down.  Then tie of with a series of half-hitches – each one I can manipulate as it tightens down (with the hooked end of my whip finisher) so that it doesn’t trap any hackle. Also BTW, is it better to tie the body first, or the parachute? If you tie the parachute first how do you keep the hackle out of the way when tieing the body?

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

When I try the Parachute Adams I can’t get the hackle to look as nice as the store-bought ones. The professionally tied flies have nice "thin" parachutes, but mine are kind of bushy. Any suggestions, Harry? Are you referring to the post being bushy ? or  the hackle ?

I was referring to the hackle. Also BTW, is it better to tie the body first, or the parachute? If you tie the parachute first how do you keep the hackle out of the way when tieing the body? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

If I get a chance I’ll upload a pic of the tye in area a bit later today……

  Take a look  : http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/5Aposthackle_tieinMA… Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I try the Parachute Adams I can’t get the hackle to look as nice as the store-bought ones. The professionally tied flies have nice "thin" parachutes, but mine are kind of bushy. Any suggestions, Harry? Are you referring to the post being bushy ? or  the hackle ? I was referring to the hackle. Also BTW, is it better to tie the body first, or the parachute? If you tie the parachute first how do you keep the hackle out of the way when tieing the body?

  Some undersize the hackle by a hook size or so. I like that as well IMO, I think neck hackles are a better feather for a parachute because the barbs are stiffer, again IMO.  Being stiffer, they stay perpendicular to the post and do not "mesh"  with each other.A clean crisp look ,if you will. With this method you can tye in the hackle and the just leave it. After you apply the tail and dub the body including the head, you can then wrap the hackle and tye it off at the eye as a last step. What is clean about this is the fly is in essence done when you begin to wrap the hackle, you do not have to come back and dub the hackle tye down area after the hackle wraps. The last wraps are for the hackle .  The hackle will stand straight up alongside  the post and be out of the way more or less as you build the rest of the fly. Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

  I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome  http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/10A_finished.htm Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

 I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome

The only comment I can think of is great job, very helpful instructions. — Charlie…

Response:

Harry,  I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/10A_finished.htm

I’m mightily impressed with that how-to!  This is how God intended fly patterns to be presented when He invented the Web. Anybody else putting patterns on the web:  Note that Harry’s raised the bar. Bravo. Wes Peterson Who would call himself "liberal," let him love justice. Let him love equality. Let him love compassion and charity. But let him love first, and above all the rest, Liberty.

Response:

  I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome  http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/10A_finished.htm

Very nice job Harry. Quality pictures well explained. TL MC

Response:

http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/10A_finished.htm

Nice shots Harry. Who did your camera work? Someone with a lot of pateince? Do you usually hackle your flies before putting on the tail & dubbing. Seems to me I would have to move the hackle around too much & would have to be carefull not to bind the fibers down. Sol

Response:

http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/10A_finished.htm Nice shots Harry. Who did your camera work? Someone with a lot of pateince? Do you usually hackle your flies before putting on the tail & dubbing. Seems to me I would have to move the hackle around too much & would have to be carefull not to bind the fibers down. Sol

  Thanks , Sol.  It’s just about the hackling method, not a pattern. For those that are just starting, seeing how can be much better than reading. Now if I can just find a way to show a blind pinch through my thumb I can tye a no hackle for the camera Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

Thanks Harry….that’s a fine piece of work. I have alot of novice tiers in my wintercourse who will be very gladto get the URL from me. This indeed wil make things clear for them and give ‘m the oppotunity to take a good look when they’re back home again! Very nice photographic work too! — Hans van der Stroom http://www.casema.net/~stroomh ICQ # 20196762 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome  http://www.troutflies.com/flies/Parachute_howtoo/10A_finished.htm Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

 I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Those are magnificent pictures, Harry, and very lucid text.  But let me desecribe an alternative method and ask you what you think of it. I learned this from Doug Wennick of Flyfisher’s Paradise, State College, PA. 1.  Select a length of post material (I like antron yarn) that is twice as long as necessary but only half as thick. 2.  Tie it across the BOTTOM of the hook shank with two figure-8 wraps, at right angles, like a "low-wing" airplane (or Trico spinner). 3.  Pull both "wings" upright, straight up, to make a post, and wrap the tying thread around it to hold it there,  just as in your picture. I have found this to work better, for me, than starting with the post material parallel to the hook shank and then propping it up and cutting off the tag ends. A lot less bulk. I would appreciate hearing your comments, pro or con,  about this method.  Thanks. vince norris

Response:

When I try the Parachute Adams I can’t get the hackle to look as nice as the store-bought ones. The professionally tied flies have nice "thin" parachutes, but mine are kind of bushy. Any suggestions, Harry? BTW, is it better to wind the grizzly hackle and the brown hackle at the same time or separately? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

When I try the Parachute Adams I can’t get the hackle to look as nice as the store-bought ones. The professionally tied flies have nice "thin" parachutes, but mine are kind of bushy. Any suggestions, Harry?

Are you referring to the post being bushy ? or  the hackle ? BTW, is it better to wind the grizzly hackle and the brown hackle at the same time or separately?

 I like separate wraps.I find that if you turn both at the same time they do not "seat" well , one turns or spins and the thing turns into a hay seed.    Bind in last of  the two hackles a bit above the prior one on the post . Turn ( wrap) the lower one first.  You do not need to tye it off per say just half hitch the first one at the eye. Wrap the second one down to the eye and tye off both of them . This is the same method you can use for multiple hackle drys like Sofa pillows  or  the like . The only difference is the hackle collar is on the hook, not a post. Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

Hi RW, I also like the antron or poly yarn tied as per the last message. The professionally tied flies having the "nice thin" parachutes are probably the cause of the tier starting the wraps of hackle lower and giving you fewer wraps. I tend to tie still water flies sparsely and the rougher the water the fuller the hackling and tailing. I wrap both hackles at the same time. This works best if you don’t use hackle pliers and if you use maximum tension on the hackle. You will find the maximum but trial and error When I try the Parachute Adams I can’t get the hackle to look as nice as the store-bought ones. The professionally tied flies have nice "thin" parachutes, but mine are kind of bushy. Any suggestions, Harry? BTW, is it better to wind the grizzly hackle and the brown hackle at the same time or separately? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

– Vic Brockett http://home.earthlink.net/~vicbrockett

Response:

If I get a chance I’ll upload a pic of the tye in area a bit later today…… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I try the Parachute Adams I can’t get the hackle to look as nice as the store-bought ones. The professionally tied flies have nice "thin" parachutes, but mine are kind of bushy. Any suggestions, Harry? Are you referring to the post being bushy ? or  the hackle ? BTW, is it better to wind the grizzly hackle and the brown hackle at the same time or separately? I like separate wraps.I find that if you turn both at the same time they do not "seat" well , one turns or spins and the thing turns into a hay seed.   Bind in last of  the two hackles a bit above the prior one on the post . Turn ( wrap) the lower one first.  You do not need to tye it off per say just half hitch the first one at the eye. Wrap the second one down to the eye and tye off both of them . This is the same method you can use for multiple hackle drys like Sofa pillows  or  the like . The only difference is the hackle collar is on the hook, not a post. Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Harry Mason www.troutflies.com

Response:

One of those, *hey why didn’t I think of it before* ideas. There are some instances where the thick part on the back of the post is actually useful to build up bulk for a nice tapered body but I can definitely think of situations where I had wished it wasn’t there.  Thanks. Mu Young Lee Ann Arbor, MI USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I learned this from Doug Wennick of Flyfisher’s Paradise, State College, PA. 1.  Select a length of post material (I like antron yarn) that is twice as long as necessary but only half as thick. 2.  Tie it across the BOTTOM of the hook shank with two figure-8 wraps, at right angles, like a "low-wing" airplane (or Trico spinner). 3.  Pull both "wings" upright, straight up, to make a post, and wrap the tying thread around it to hold it there,  just as in your picture. I have found this to work better, for me, than starting with the post material parallel to the hook shank and then propping it up and cutting off the tag ends. A lot less bulk. I would appreciate hearing your comments, pro or con,  about this method.  Thanks. vince norris

Response:

  Sounds perfectly doable to me, and in fact ,easier than say kip or calf body. The bulk thing can be a problem with hair fibers and on small bugs the poly post is preferred. I use flats  only because of habit and the "natural" look.  I like the poly or  antron post because of the various colors one can use . Try a black post some time in  a white  foam line and you will literally_ see_ what I mean  That’s what interesting about tying, not much is chiseled or even written in stone , you can do pretty much as you please. There are techniques that should be learned and practiced only because trial and error over time has shown them to be the "best" way.Once you master those, you can sub this for that and create things that work for _you_ …that’s the fun part.    Have at it ..;-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I tried to  clarify the steps for the Parachute tye down. Comments welcome Harry Mason www.troutflies.com Those are magnificent pictures, Harry, and very lucid text.  But let me desecribe an alternative method and ask you what you think of it. I learned this from Doug Wennick of Flyfisher’s Paradise, State College, PA. 1.  Select a length of post material (I like antron yarn) that is twice as long as necessary but only half as thick. 2.  Tie it across the BOTTOM of the hook shank with two figure-8 wraps, at right angles, like a "low-wing" airplane (or Trico spinner). 3.  Pull both "wings" upright, straight up, to make a post, and wrap the tying thread around it to hold it there,  just as in your picture. I have found this to work better, for me, than starting with the post material parallel to the hook shank and then propping it up and cutting off the tag ends. A lot less bulk. I would appreciate hearing your comments, pro or con,  about this method.  Thanks. vince norris

Harry Mason www.Troutflies.com

Response:

Question:

<cruel gastronomic description filleted Hell of a thing to do to a guy at three in the afternoon with nothing edible is sight! But this is the kind of story we like to read.  While mostly a C&R fisherman (Egad, here it comes again!!) I do nevertheless keep enough to treat myself once in a while.  Your description of smoked ducks brings to mind my favorite preparation for trout.  We set them on the Weber, as far from a small pile of glowing coals as possible and leave them for about an hour and a half, all the while adding small amounts of soaked hickory chips to the fire; just enough to keep the smoke going strong.  Sinfully good!  But to top it off (and healthy be damned!) I like to slather on a bit of brie. As for the elk, or any of it’s relatives for that matter, my favorite is still soaking in olive oil for a few hours, wrapping in bacon and grilling over a hot bed of coals until medium rare, at most.  Personally I prefer rare, but most of the people with whom I enjoy this treat like it cooked a bit more.  For those who like to live close to the edge in these diet conscious days, the aforementioned soft cheese can also be applied to red meat. Also……but no, it’ll have to wait for another time….I gotta go get something to eat!

Response:

Actually, last April we dined on a brace of Elk Steaks marinated for

(delicious feast snipped) Omigosh, Larry! If you can’t figure out anything worthwhile to do with your elk, let me know what Wolfgang can’t use and I’ll send you my UPS address! Hate to see it go to waist (sp intentional!). Drooling out loud, Rick

Response:

As for the elk, or any of it’s relatives for that matter, my favorite is still soaking in olive oil for a few hours, wrapping in bacon and grilling over a hot bed of coals until medium rare, at most.  Personally I prefer rare, but most of the people with whom I enjoy this treat like it cooked a bit more.  For those who like to live close to the edge in these diet conscious days, the aforementioned soft cheese can also be applied to red meat.

While simultaneously drooling on my keyboard, I gotta ask: Not that it’s stopped me from slurping down raw oysters or eating my steaks rare, but we’ve all seen the "news magazine" horror stories about contamination of domestic meats; and we’ve all been cautioned about the wisdom of thoroughly cooking our food.   So this "wild meat" thread has me wondering.   Nutritional values aside, is there a similar risk of e-coli or parasitic infection from eating game cooked rare?   Just wondering. Joe F.

Response:

Joe- I’m sure the same concerns exist, especially because this meat isn’t irradiated to kill any potential diseases and like most hunters, the animals are field dressed, packaged well enough to pack out against the heat of one’s body on a frame and kept from thorough refrigeration for a day or more……then brought home in the bed of a truck or some such device. Same’s true for ducks, geese, pheasant, quail, etc….most hunters will bring em home and hang em for a couple of days prior to guttin’ and pluckin’ em…. helps to age the meat some and also makes em easier to dress out…. But with that said, I gotta ALSO say this….I’ve eaten wild game for some 35 years now, on at least 6 occassions a year (not counting the jerky and salame!!) and have NEVER gotten a case of gastrointestinal distention, much less any more disastrous effect from it, aside from gettin’ stuffed like a pig and not knowing when to say ENOUGH!!!  (BTW, Wild Pig is great too!!!) Now to the rest of you…sorry to set y’all to droolin’ in the middle of the day…..just wasn’t a prudent thing to do, I mean someday I KNOW all a y’all will return the favor =)   Especially those of you who have access to CRAWFISH!!!!   Oh yeah….neighbor has a pair of bucks down at the butcher shop as we speak……hee hee hee…. Larry #:)#

Response:

[pared] Now to the rest of you…sorry to set y’all to droolin’ in the middle of the day…..just wasn’t a prudent thing to do, I mean someday I KNOW all a y’all will return the favor =)   Especially those of you who have access to CRAWFISH!!!!   Oh yeah….neighbor has a pair of bucks down at the butcher shop as we speak……hee hee hee….

Geezus Christmas! Between you and Wolfie (and even "Oyster Joe" ;^) I’m dying here! Show some mercy for someone who had to deal with airline food today! /daytripper (rummaging through the ‘fridge…)

Response:

rare, but we’ve all seen the "news magazine" horror stories about

(contamination, etc) wondering.   Nutritional values aside, is there a similar risk of e-coli or parasitic infection from eating game cooked rare?   Just wondering.

Joe, Don’t know how accurate this info is (wouldn’t want anyone getting sick) but during one of the recent e. coli outbreaks, I was reading some "warning" info in the paper. Author seemed to think the problem with rare meat (red meat, not poultry, which has its own caveats) occurs primarily with ground meat as opposed to "cut" meat like steaks, roasts, etc. The advice was based on the idea that bacteria grow on the surface of the meat and are killed by heat, so the "cut" meat can be cooked rare as long as the outside was cooked well. Ground meat becomes a problem as you shape it into patties or whatever because what was once on the surface could be mixed into the interior and therefore you should cook to much greater degree of "doneness" to ensure you got the bugs. Your local ag extension office probably has a nutritionist that can put this to rest. If not, let me know and I’ll check–my brother-in-law is an extension agent and I’m sure has some info available. Anyway, the newspaper article makes sense on the surface, but I’d like to hear other opinions… Cheers, Rick

Response:

If it makes you all feel better, I caught a 12 inch smallmouth bass today. First cast too! Man are they tasty! ……Well, time for supper!

: [pared] : : Now to the rest of you…sorry to set y’all to droolin’ in the middle of : the day…..just wasn’t a prudent thing to do, I mean someday I KNOW all : a y’all will return the favor =)   Especially those of you who have : access to CRAWFISH!!!!   Oh yeah….neighbor has a pair of bucks down at : the butcher shop as we speak……hee hee hee…. : Geezus Christmas! Between you and Wolfie (and even "Oyster Joe" ;^) : I’m dying here! : Show some mercy for someone who had to deal with airline food today! : /daytripper (rummaging through the ‘fridge…) — I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal The metalworking drop box  is at           http://www.metalworking.com                                     or     http://208.213.200.132 Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm

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From a river or lake……? do you think it was big enough to have spawned it’s first time….?john

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<good analysis snipped I have thought about this issue long and hard for a long time.  Like Larry, I’ve eaten a lot of game over the years and have never suffered any ill effects from lightly cooked meat.  In fact, I eat venison or some sort of game bird about once a week. Ground meat is obviously more dangerous for the reasons mentioned, i.e. any surface contamination is thoroughly mixed into the center of the mass where the bacteria cannot be killed except by thorough cooking.  But I believe that the problem is exacerbated by the way commercially packaged meat is handled.  The game I eat is processed at home in very small masses.  A couple of birds at a time or a single deer.  Compare this with the beef you just bought at the grocery store.  This package of meat just went down the same line as some hundreds or thousands of pounds of meat processed in the same day.  Any bacterial contamination has all day to grow and multiply.  Add to this the fact that sanitation between days may be less than perfect and you have a situation in which the proliferation of E. choli, Salmonella or other bacteria is virtually assured.  Obviously, contamination can be minimized by scrupulously cleaning all work surfaces but we all know how easy it is for someone to get a little bit careless, especially some underpaid meat cutter bored to distraction by a mindless routine job. In short, it seems to me that, counterintuitively, game processed and packaged at home is likely to be safer than commercially packed meat because it isn’t dragged through the same slime as tons of other meat. Bon Apetit!

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From a lake. There are no smallmouth bass in rivers around here. At 12 inches they have spawned many times!

: From a river or lake……? : do you think it was big enough to have spawned it’s first time….?john — I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal The metalworking drop box  is at           http://www.metalworking.com                                     or     http://208.213.200.132 Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm

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snip< Bon Apetit!

Thanks Rick, Larry, Dave, & Wolfgang.   My curiosity, if not my appetite, is satisfied. I think I’ll have some sushi tonight. Joe F. "I always eat my oysters fried. That way I know my oyster’s died."     ….Roy Blount, Jr.

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Hello: My second posting ever…but I could use some suggestions. Am trying to tie the Henry’s Fork hopper……bundled elk or deer hair, extended body, etc. I have a little tourble with purportions but that’ll take time I guess.  But most especially, when reversing the elk hair for the body it seems to break and make a rough tail on the body…which is not what I bought…and don’t want to, anymore! I’ve got the books but need some experience…..’hints & kinks’, etc. Thanks for everything you folks post….I appreciate you! Buff

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I would give it up.  The best hopper imitation I have used, is the old trusty Letort Hopper.  I’ve caught lots of big, streamwise brown trout on that fly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: My second posting ever…but I could use some suggestions. Am trying to tie the Henry’s Fork hopper……bundled elk or deer hair, extended body, etc. I have a little tourble with purportions but that’ll take time I guess. But most especially, when reversing the elk hair for the body it seems to break and make a rough tail on the body…which is not what I bought…and don’t want to, anymore! I’ve got the books but need some experience…..’hints & kinks’, etc. Thanks for everything you folks post….I appreciate you! Buff

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My first two guesses are: 1) You’re using TOO MUCH hair     try using less first 2) You’re using the wrong hair or old hair     if it’s from the wrong part of the elk or it’s old, it’ll break when you bend/fold it Larry #:)#

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My first two guesses are: 1) You’re using TOO MUCH hair    try using less first 2) You’re using the wrong hair or old hair    if it’s from the wrong part of the elk or it’s old, it’ll break when you bend/fold it Larry #:)#

I agree with Larry on #2.  Also might be the wrong thread.  If the thread is too small it will cut through the hair as well. Warren

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My first two guesses are: 1) You’re using TOO MUCH hair    try using less first 2) You’re using the wrong hair or old hair    if it’s from the wrong part of the elk or it’s old, it’ll break when you bend/fold it Larry #:)# I agree with Larry on #2.  Also might be the wrong thread.  If the thread is too small it will cut through the hair as well. Warren

_______  Warren?  Good point.  Larry Madina also has the perfect suggestion but he didn’t say what area on an Elk is best.  Let’s look at the Wapiti or deer family of different animals. 1) There are many different ways to tie Deer Hair style Caddis patterns.  Many. 2) The hair on herbivores (from the ground, up) on the legs or shins, it is thinnest and smallest in diameter.  Also around the face and/or mask area. 3) The largest diameter hair is around the belly.  The belly is the boiler room and contains a lot of blood and needs to be kept warm because it also is the area that has the largest surface area on herbivores that must survive in freezing outdoor temperatures.  This hair is also the thickest and has large, hollow hairs.  Air inside these belly hairs is a dramatic insulator against cold.  The hair also contains a lot of underdubbing/fur/matting/etc. that is a ‘blanket’ against wind.  It is what keeps wind from getting THRU the hair and against the skin/hide.  It is an interesting study in nature’s engineering. The hollowness of Elk hair, when you spin certain patterns such as muddler heads, when you bear down with the tying thread is what makes it explode or open up.  This ‘kinking’ is nothing more then a way to make the hair do what you want it to do.  Shin hairs do not flair out like the hollower hairs around the belly of elk and/or deer. The hair on the back of herbivores is also thin in diameter and not as thick.  Why?  I cannot but venture a guess.  Its not necessary because the body heat inside happens to keep the roof dry, sort of speaking. This is also a good area or source for selecting Elk hair. 4)  When one is in a fly shop, you have to know what you’re looking at with each package which has but a small piece of and entire Elk inside it.  You need to know what is leg hair, what is belly hair, what is neck hair, what is facial hair, what is back hair, what is flank hair, etc. And so it goes. Elk Hair patterns seldom use large diameter Elk Hair.  I usually use the back and most often leg hair.  The Caddis wing only needs to flair just a little.  It is not necessary to fold it back after tying it in at the head/forward.  These are not hollow hairs and when Ginked, its enough to float a caddis that has no hollow Elk or Deer Hair.  I tie a great many of my Caddis Patterns with Mule Deer because I happen to like the black and coloration of Mule Deer above all things regarding ‘Caddis’. However; Elk Hair comes in colors and shadings other then blonde.   So when fly tiers are talking HOW TO tie any pattern, the industry at large should start stating WHAT part of an Elk/Deer they are using. This is vital information but somehow, everyone seems to not think its important.  I, on the other hand think it is vital, if anyone is to tie a fly that has ‘the proper signature’ of that offered by its author. To Larry Madina, who I think is an above average fly tier, I hope you can agree that this information is proper regarding flies tied with the hairs from herbivores.  That being more specific is indeed, rather important. Hope this helps Warren the cause of tying really great Caddis Patterns. Lets face it. Throughout most trout rivers and streams, its really "The Caddis" that is king. We can discuss it more over at the camp site some evening.  Hours between 1700 PDT and 2000 EST.   Gink Keeps It Up — Mr. G.   http://www.gink.com/chat   "Flyfisherman’s Camp Fires Burning" Fly Fishing’s Talking Camp Site  

Question:

Considering a 3-day solo (not counting dog) backpack trip mid june somewhere in the sierras.   Anyone with good experiences or heard of good areas for fishing and scenery?  Remote is good. thanks eric

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Hi Eric-    I agree, remote is good; however, with only three days remote won’t be very. For most of the range the season will be on your side. You’ll find lots of snow, many lakes will be frozen, and not many people will be hanging out.    Try the southern Sierra northeast of Bakersfield. Hike into the Golden Trout Wilderness near the Quaking Aspen campground and hike up the Kern River (either fork). Probably not much snow, nice scene, the fishing is okay and the terrain is easy enough to cover some distance in three days. Take a snake bite kit, I was bit while fishing the area a few years back and was greatful for the kit.    -Ralph Considering a 3-day solo (not counting dog) backpack trip mid june somewhere in the sierras.   Anyone with good experiences or heard of good areas for fishing and scenery?  Remote is good. thanks eric

Ralph Cutter, California School of Flyfishing. http://www.flyline.com

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Question:

Hi there.. I’m looking in to getting back into fly fishing (I used to do it a bit with my father a long time ago..).  Essentially, I have forgotten all that I was taught.. and I was wondering if anybody had suggestions on how I could best get back into the sport.. or what would be the best strategy for learning about the state of the sport nowadays? Thank you for whatever help you can give me.

     Assuming you live in Central Ontario, Bud Hoffman runs a good fly fishing school on the Beaver River, near Kimberley, Ont.  His number is/was 519 986-2351. Bud is a pretty level-headed guy, and easy to talk to and learn from.  The Izaak Walton Fly fishing Club can be reached at 905 855-5420.  It might help if you post what part of Ontario you fish. Good luck JIM WARD Twin Willow Farm "Home of good horses, fine whiskey and great wild trout"

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Hi I suggest you contact the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 and find out the location of an affiliate club near you. Then join and learn from a new friend. At this time of year many club sponsor fly fishing classes in preparation for the season so you timing is right on. If there is no club near you, ask the FFF about their educational booklet "Introduction to Fly Fishing" It cost $2.00 plus S&H and gives a lot of good info. Other FFF educational booklet that would help are on casting, entomology, and beginning fly tying. Al Hi there.. I’m looking in to getting back into fly fishing (I used to do it a bit with my father a long time ago..).  Essentially, I have forgotten all that I was taught.. and I was wondering if anybody had suggestions on how I could best get back into the sport.. or what would be the best strategy for learning about the state of the sport nowadays? Thank you for whatever help you can give me.

Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Hi there.. I’m looking in to getting back into fly fishing (I used to do it a bit with my father a long time ago..).  Essentially, I have forgotten all that I was taught.. and I was wondering if anybody had suggestions on how I could best get back into the sport.. or what would be the best strategy for learning about the state of the sport nowadays? Thank you for whatever help you can give me.

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Hi there.. I’m looking in to getting back into fly fishing (I used to do it a bit with my father a long time ago..).  Essentially, I have forgotten all that I was taught.. and I was wondering if anybody had suggestions on how I could best get back into the sport.. or what would be the best strategy for learning about the state of the sport nowadays? Thank you for whatever help you can give me.

Hi One of the best ways is to learn from a friend and I think you will find a few of those on this group and the fly tying group as well. Also you might consider joining a local club. I suggest you contact the Federation of Fly Fishers at 406-585-7592 and get the contact person in a local club. Then you can join and learn from a friend. If you have a specific question please post to this group or check my tips and tricks section at my web site. I think the address is in my signature. Good luck and welcome to the best legal drug available; flyfishing. Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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Question:

I have a short list of about a dozen fishing books (mostly fly fishing) these are out-of-print or first edition copies.  If you collect books on fishing, or just love to read about it (you probably do if you are on this list)  you might enjoy my occasional lists of sporting books. Thank you for reading. David Holloway

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Iam looking for a copy of "the compleat angler"can you help. nav9200

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Question:

Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

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Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…    

I’ve tried Dry Shake this summer and found that it worked fine when fishing in calm water. In moving water the powder  rinsed away to fast. I found out that you must make the fly as dry as possible before putting the stuff on it again. It worked for me. But I’m only using Dry Shake in  calm water. It is very expensive though  (100 Skr for 25 gram).. I’m still looking for the ultimate dry fly floatant! /Mikael — Mikael Andersson                        Ericsson Telecom AB Phone: +46 8 7190794                    KK/ETX/T/BDH Fax:   +46 8 6812626                    S-126 25 Stockholm

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writes: Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual

‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once

been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

If this is the same "Shake’n Dry" stuff that I use, it isn’t meant to be a floatant, it’s supposed to dry off a drowned fly. You have to reapply your favorite floatant after it’s dried. By the way, this stuff is ordinary silica gel dessicant. You can get the same stuff for about 5 bucks (US) a pound at hobby shops. They use it for drying flowers and such. One pound will last you for a lifetime (or get together with some of your fisherman friends and split the cost) the only other thing you need to get is a suitable container (but you already have one since you bought Shake’n Dry). This stuff also works great for cul de canard flies, since you can’t use floatant on them. Darryl

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Have you tried the powder dry fly floatant?   Nntp-Posting-Host: eplu04 Organization: Erisoft AB Umea Sweden Lines: 9 Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

I have had a similar experience with the dry powder. However, I have found a flotant which is superior, for me, to Gink or Dave’s…. I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me. Rick Najarian

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I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me.

Can you give an address/phone number? — Rick

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I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me. Can you give an address/phone number? — Rick

Dear RW, The shop is: Creative Sports 1924 #C Oak Park Blvd. Pleasant Hill, CA 94253 (510) 938-2255 P.S. "Andy" is Andy Puyans of the "A.P. Nymph series" & this is his fly shop. Naj

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FYI, the guides I’ve talked to in Montana and the Eastern Sierras swear by "Aquel" by Loon.  It seems to hold its consistency well in the heat.

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