Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.
O.K., I see where the problem lies. Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run. I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs. We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn. Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon. As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another. Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time. :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky 
Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion. The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing. As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me. It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed. Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived. Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque. Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do. What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang
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I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.
This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so. By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure. It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown. Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout. Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.
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I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe. One thing, however: the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river. My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads. I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake. Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing. He gave me the same info as the guide. As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks. The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns. Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet. No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked. It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave
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or Gink- reaching Waldo
scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo
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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner. I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.
Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"
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This is intriguing. Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?
Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish
Response:
This is intriguing. Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns
But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.
Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another. Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.
He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time. :) Wolfgang
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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.
Reminds me. I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it. Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang
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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?
Goddamn RW
Response:
Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?
Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another. Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.
I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time. :)
This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang
Flyfish
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.
Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference. Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html
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Back when I worked for the fly shop,
Did you work at MGFS in Greenville? Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in. SWMBO noticed also. 
Joe F.
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Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. 
Jim Ray
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip. So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible. The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon. Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake. The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean. A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports. The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g. The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam. It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot. I’ll fish here. (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour. I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready. The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom. Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike. Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on. I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown. I didn’t know there were browns up that far. Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish. 15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in. It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant. Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again. Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner. I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.
Response:
At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg
OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/
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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.
At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…
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Glad the GRW worked. It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.
I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise. For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib. Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe. One thing, however: the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river. My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads. I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake. Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing. He gave me the same info as the guide. As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks. The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns. Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet. No browns in the Rapid.
This is intriguing. Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established. From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are. Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang
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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.
BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/
Response:
I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip. So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible. The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon. Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake. The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean. A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports. The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g. The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam. It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot. I’ll fish here. (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour. I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready. The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom. Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike. Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on. I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown. I didn’t know there were browns up that far. Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish. 15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in. It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant. Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again. Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner. I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.
Response:
At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.
Green rock worm? — Charlie…
Response:
Great report, Joe. One thing, however: the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river. My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads. I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake. Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing. He gave me the same info as the guide. As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks. The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns. Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet. No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked. It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave
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By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.
I confess I don’t have the numbers. The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember. I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there. All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.
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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour. I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.
My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott
Response:
Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour. I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.
At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/
Response:
At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.
I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.