Question:

My personal, if rarely met, standard is that it is a real vacation if my contribution to the housekeeping is tipping the staff.

YES — my thoughts precisely.  I have told DH numerous times that if I have to make a bed, wash a dish or cook anything besides nuked popcorn, then I am NOT on holiday!!!!!   The only exception to this was when we still lived in Lizard Land and we would go to the cabin in the mtns for the weekend.  ANYTHING that got me out of that *$*%*&%^ heat was a holiday — LOLOLOL!   For the ultimate in "do nothing" holidays, take a cruise — talk about sybaritic pleasure!!!   CiaoMeow ^;;^< . PAX, Tia Mary   ^;;^<     Angels can’t show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!!     Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs — and they make the BEST specialty fibers too! No husband was ever shot doing dishes!

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For a quarter?!?  Wow I am envious. I won’t be able to go garage saling until next week.     Deb Wise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a bit of good luck at a yardsale yesterday.  For a quarter I bought a shopping bag of cross stitch supplies.  In it was a scroll frame with an assortment of bars, a Lo-ran thread holder with cards, a magnetic pattern board, somewhere around a hundred and fifty skeins of DMC, about ten odd pieces of fabric and a couple of booklets.   I am feeling quite smug at the moment. LOL!   I also found eight books on crafts and a cookbook that I didn’t have, but they weren’t such a bargain- I paid fifty cents each for those. Nan Scott

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My idea of roughing it is the Hilton with room service!! LOL Donna

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I wouldn’t trade my camping trips for a cruise any day.  There are so many priceless moments with the kids!  Just picture my little girl, learning fly-fishing on the beach of a lake last year.  She was doing really good, and she got a bite.  My DH had told her to give it a tug and set the hook.  Well, the poor dear pulled like she’d hooked a shark, and a very surprised little girl had a little bluegill fly past her head and land about 20 feet behind her.  She caught it!  She was pleased, then asked if this 4 inch fish was too small to eat.  We quickly let the poor thing go, but what a memory!  Huddled together in a tent in the thunderstorm is another matter.  Lovin’ the great outdoors, Greta

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My idea of roughing it is the Hilton with room service!! LOL Donna

Me too!!  I wasn’t raised *roughing it* but my husband was.  Guess who had to change!!!! Candi

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    I agree!  DH wants to go camping for vacation.  I told him to drop me at the nearest Motel 6 (or preferably Marriott), and pick me up on the way back.   Sleeping on the ground and cooking over a campstove (or fire) are not my idea of a nice vacation!         Di’mn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My personal, if rarely met, standard is that it is a real vacation if my contribution to the housekeeping is tipping the staff. YES — my thoughts precisely.  I have told DH numerous times that if I have to make a bed, wash a dish or cook anything besides nuked popcorn, then I am NOT on holiday!!!!!   The only exception to this was when we still lived in Lizard Land and we would go to the cabin in the mtns for the weekend.  ANYTHING that got me out of that *$*%*&%^ heat was a holiday — LOLOLOL!   For the ultimate in "do nothing" holidays, take a cruise — talk about sybaritic pleasure!!! CiaoMeow ^;;^< . PAX, Tia Mary   ^;;^< Angels can’t show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!! Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs — and they make the BEST specialty fibers too! No husband was ever shot doing dishes!

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This is what you need to tell him. You’ll go camping WHEN you have a FULLY loaded class A motor home, with a full bath, complete working kitchen and a closet JUST for your stash. And that he’s cooking and cleaning while you are on vacation <G.  It works sometimes! We got a 1978 motorhome, but it has a stove, oven and microwave, a bathroom with shower and a closet with MY stash for stitching in the afternoons <VBG. It also has a TV and VCR!                         Cindy  - who refuses to sleep on the ground after it rained and the whole tent tried to float away!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I agree!  DH wants to go camping for vacation.  I told him to drop me at the nearest Motel 6 (or preferably Marriott), and pick me up on the way back.   Sleeping on the ground and cooking over a campstove (or fire) are not my idea of a nice vacation!         Di’mn My personal, if rarely met, standard is that it is a real vacation if my contribution to the housekeeping is tipping the staff. YES — my thoughts precisely.  I have told DH numerous times that if I have to make a bed, wash a dish or cook anything besides nuked popcorn, then I am NOT on holiday!!!!!   The only exception to this was when we still lived in Lizard Land and we would go to the cabin in the mtns for the weekend.  ANYTHING that got me out of that *$*%*&%^ heat was a holiday — LOLOLOL!   For the ultimate in "do nothing" holidays, take a cruise — talk about sybaritic pleasure!!! CiaoMeow ^;;^< . PAX, Tia Mary   ^;;^< Angels can’t show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!! Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs — and they make the BEST specialty fibers too! No husband was ever shot doing dishes!

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Have to laugh because we are getting ready to head out for a Civil War reenactment at Wilson’s Creek, Missouri and not only will I be camping, it will be 1861 for the wekend – water in wooden casks (and don’t ask who’ll be using wooden buckets to haul it into camp), open fire cooking, and candles for lighting.  And all this as a proper 19th century lady, petticoated and corsetted.  Needless to say I am NOT bringing good needlework projects to camp – they aren’t period and they are too expensive to risk in the outdoors – it will be knitting and quilting for me this weekend. — Janet Rice

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I agree!  DH wants to go camping for vacation.  I told him to drop me at the nearest Motel 6 (or preferably Marriott), and pick me up on the way back.   Sleeping on the ground and cooking over a campstove (or fire) are not my idea of a nice vacation!         Di’mn My personal, if rarely met, standard is that it is a real vacation if my contribution to the housekeeping is tipping the staff. YES — my thoughts precisely.  I have told DH numerous times that if I have to make a bed, wash a dish or cook anything besides nuked popcorn, then I am NOT on holiday!!!!!   The only exception to this was when we still lived in Lizard Land and we would go to the cabin in the mtns for the weekend.  ANYTHING that got me out of that *$*%*&%^ heat was a holiday — LOLOLOL!   For the ultimate in "do nothing" holidays, take a cruise — talk about sybaritic pleasure!!! CiaoMeow ^;;^< . PAX, Tia Mary   ^;;^< Angels can’t show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their WHISKERS!! Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs — and they make the BEST specialty fibers too! No husband was ever shot doing dishes!

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We have 1992 motorhome, which was our ONLY home for four years, while we wandered the United States.My husband considered it "roughing it" if the microwave broke, or trees blocked out the satellite dish! Nowadays, roughing it is when he gets to a campground, and there is nowhere to plug in his laptop, and download mail!! Gillian in Polk City, FL "Cindy

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I miss camping, but DH & I have an RV.  It’s only 24 feet long, so we can still go down some interesting roads to neat campsites, but I must admit that it beats sleeping on the ground. )  When we go, though, BOTH of us are on vacation, so food usually consists of canned stew or beans, hot dogs and sandwiches.  I’m happy as a clam stitching or reading, but DH get bored easily & isn’t a reader, so the TV & VCR are nice.  The free campgrounds or rest stops are nice because we can use the generator (for an hour or two), but the "organized" campgrounds are nice too, where we can plug into the power and water and not have the noise of the generator (or the cost of the propane to run it).  I’m just toooo cheap to enjoy staying in an expensive motel when all I do in it is sleep.  I’d rather save my money for food, S.E.X. or, or, or….well, what else is there??? )) This is what you need to tell him. You’ll go camping WHEN you have a FULLY loaded class A motor home, with a full bath, complete working kitchen and a closet JUST for your stash. And that he’s cooking and cleaning while you are on vacation <G.  It works sometimes! We got a 1978 motorhome, but it has a stove, oven and microwave, a bathroom with shower and a closet with MY stash for stitching in the afternoons <VBG. It also has a TV and VCR! Cindy  - who refuses to sleep on the ground after it rained and the whole tent tried to float away!

Liz from Humbug

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This sounds so familiar, I can curl up and stitch or read for hours, while he walks around muttering that there’s nothing to do!  Campground this year has a fishing creek, I got him a license and a rod and reel, and let him go looking for fish. (he hasn’t found any yet, but it keeps him busy!                                 Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I miss camping, but DH & I have an RV.  It’s only 24 feet long, so we can still go down some interesting roads to neat campsites, but I must admit that it beats sleeping on the ground. )  When we go, though, BOTH of us are on vacation, so food usually consists of canned stew or beans, hot dogs and sandwiches.  I’m happy as a clam stitching or reading, but DH get bored easily & isn’t a reader, so the TV & VCR are nice.  The free campgrounds or rest stops are nice because we can use the generator (for an hour or two), but the "organized" campgrounds are nice too, where we can plug into the power and water and not have the noise of the generator (or the cost of the propane to run it).  I’m just toooo cheap to enjoy staying in an expensive motel when all I do in it is sleep.  I’d rather save my money for food, S.E.X. or, or, or….well, what else is there??? )) This is what you need to tell him. You’ll go camping WHEN you have a FULLY loaded class A motor home, with a full bath, complete working kitchen and a closet JUST for your stash. And that he’s cooking and cleaning while you are on vacation <G.  It works sometimes! We got a 1978 motorhome, but it has a stove, oven and microwave, a bathroom with shower and a closet with MY stash for stitching in the afternoons <VBG. It also has a TV and VCR! Cindy  - who refuses to sleep on the ground after it rained and the whole tent tried to float away! Liz from Humbug

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I had a bit of good luck at a yardsale yesterday.  For a quarter I bought a shopping bag of cross stitch supplies.  In it was a scroll frame with an assortment of bars, a Lo-ran thread holder with cards, a magnetic pattern board, somewhere around a hundred and fifty skeins of DMC, about ten odd pieces of fabric and a couple of booklets.   I am feeling quite smug at the moment. LOL!   I also found eight books on crafts and a cookbook that I didn’t have, but they weren’t such a bargain- I paid fifty cents each for those. Nan Scott

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I had a bit of good luck at a yardsale yesterday.  For a quarter I bought a shopping bag of cross stitch supplies.  In it was a scroll frame with an assortment of bars, a Lo-ran thread holder with cards, a magnetic pattern board, somewhere around a hundred and fifty skeins of DMC, about ten odd pieces of fabric and a couple of booklets.   I am feeling quite smug at the moment. LOL!   I also found eight books on crafts and a cookbook that I didn’t have, but they weren’t such a bargain- I paid fifty cents each for those. Nan Scott

Lucky you!!!  You made quite a haul! Candi

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Oh, my.  For a QUARTER?!!!  I’m coming yard saling with you.  I’ve never found XS supplies at any yard sale.  Though I have been able to talk people into giving me entire boxes of scrap yarn for a buck by telling them that I use it to make afghans for charity. Finished 2/24/2000 – Sweet 16 (Silver Lining) WIP:Twins Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Teen Creed, California Sampler, America the Beautiful (Nimble Needle), antique green doll (Vervaco) Don’t risk your on-line privileges!  I report all Spam.

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Oh, my.  For a QUARTER?!!!  I’m coming yard saling with you.  I’ve never found XS supplies at any yard sale.  Though I have been able to talk people into giving me entire boxes of scrap yarn for a buck by telling them that I use it to make afghans for charity.

This is my best haul yet at least in items/cost, but I find cross stitch and needlepoint things quite regularly.  Unopened kits seem to average between fifty cents and a dollar,  booklets and magazines fifteen to twenty five cents and books fifty cents to a dollar.  Threads, fabric and misc. stuff tend to be sold bagged up in a sort of grab bag style.   An amazing number of people seem to buy very elaborate needlework projects for beach vacations and then never get them started.   Probably a reflection of the area.   From a purely mercenary point of view, if the items are unpriced, look for the husband to ask how much.  On the other hand, I find that the asking price on yarn here is close enough to retail that it isn’t worth even bargaining for unless it is a slow day without many sales. Nan Scott

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Where do you go yardsaling? I think I’ll have to make it part of a holiday some year!! Gillian in Vancouver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, my.  For a QUARTER?!!!  I’m coming yard saling with you.  I’ve never found XS supplies at any yard sale.  Though I have been able to talk people into giving me entire boxes of scrap yarn for a buck by telling them that I use it to make afghans for charity. This is my best haul yet at least in items/cost, but I find cross stitch and needlepoint things quite regularly.  Unopened kits seem to average between fifty cents and a dollar,  booklets and magazines fifteen to twenty five cents and books fifty cents to a dollar.  Threads, fabric and misc. stuff tend to be sold bagged up in a sort of grab bag style.   An amazing number of people seem to buy very elaborate needlework projects for beach vacations and then never get them started.   Probably a reflection of the area.   From a purely mercenary point of view, if the items are unpriced, look for the husband to ask how much.  On the other hand, I find that the asking price on yarn here is close enough to retail that it isn’t worth even bargaining for unless it is a slow day without many sales. Nan Scott

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Hey Nan– Are you sure all this S.E.X. didn’t upset your budget? BEG  Anyway,  enjoy it all! Tobie — WIP:  Silhouette of Bride & Groom (NP); Tallit Bag Cover (NP); Lace Border & Name (Endearments Old & New NP); Picture of 5 clowns (NP);  Ocean Princess (James Himsworth XS); Hanukkah Dreidel (NP)

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It’s interesting that with yard sales you tend to do better on different items in different geographic areas.  Having lived in a lot of different places, my conclusion is that this type of yard sale find is most common in areas where people have or regularly rent vacation cottages near their homes, like within driving distance of a beach or mountains.  Women live with the delusion that they will get to the holiday place and have the time to do needlework when in point of fact they keep house in a different location with fewer "mod cons."   My personal, if rarely met, standard is that it is a real vacation if my contribution to the housekeeping is tipping the staff. Nan Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do you go yardsaling? I think I’ll have to make it part of a holiday some year!! Gillian in Vancouver Oh, my.  For a QUARTER?!!!  I’m coming yard saling with you.  I’ve never found XS supplies at any yard sale.  Though I have been able to talk people into giving me entire boxes of scrap yarn for a buck by telling them that I use it to make afghans for charity. This is my best haul yet at least in items/cost, but I find cross stitch and needlepoint things quite regularly.  Unopened kits seem to average between fifty cents and a dollar,  booklets and magazines fifteen to twenty five cents and books fifty cents to a dollar.  Threads, fabric and misc. stuff tend to be sold bagged up in a sort of grab bag style.   An amazing number of people seem to buy very elaborate needlework projects for beach vacations and then never get them started.   Probably a reflection of the area. From a purely mercenary point of view, if the items are unpriced, look for the husband to ask how much.  On the other hand, I find that the asking price on yarn here is close enough to retail that it isn’t worth even bargaining for unless it is a slow day without many sales. Nan Scott

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Question:

Scott, My family and I were there in April.  Could not wait to get out of the place.  Forget any thought of an idyllic tropical paradise.  Nor can foreign nationals travel to the Nicobars.  You will have to travel away from Port Blair if you want to find anything that is clean.  When I travelled to No 7 beach on Havelock which is claimed to be amongst the most beautiful beaches in the world I was disappointed.  Other people, and particularly those from the northern hemisphere, might find that beach pretty but I am from Australia where we only have white sand beaches much of which are uninhabited.  Moreover, having travelled widely I was looking for an out-of-the-way paradise.  Andamans are no paradise and its only legacy apart from forming some lasting friendships with fellow disappointed travellers was to awaken my interest in fourth world issues. In this instance, why can India perpetuate control over foreign territory they inherited from the British. Regards Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone familiar with the Andaman or Nicobar Islands of India, I would appreciate any and all information.  I am very interested in unspoiled beaches and have a mission to travel the world over to find the most beautiful and pristine beaches.  I understand these are some of the Islands I need to add to my conquests. Thank you. Scott, Los Angeles

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The Andamans are a good place to travel to if you like adventure AND are able to plan & organise your own trip. It’s not hard to get to the Andamans, you only need some time to wait for the first flight or ship from the mainland to Port Blair. It’s better to take a return plane ticket, only than you can use your time to see the islands. Those who go by ship (bunk class) need some day’s to buy a return ticket ! link: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/4867/Havelock.html

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The andamans are very, very nice. but how long they stay that way is in question. Its difficult to book flighs as they go very quickley to if you plan to fly then book ahead. I went by boat which was fine. the crossing was ok, bunk class was barablr if your used to india. the only problem is that the ferry services dont run in line with your 1 month pern=mit, so i ended up having to leave 10 days early or risk an overstay and mucho hassle. there are some nice beaches and diving is possible. (i learnt to dive there and am now a dive instructoir myself). the locals are mostly banglideshi refugees so they dont really have a good understanding of island ecology. so the beaches tend to become rubish dumps and places for the locals to get pissed on away from pring eyes. there is still a traveler comunity there and plenty to keep you busy for a month. good food, nice culture, beautiful islands. try not to be a wanker and respect the fact that parts of the chain are off limits. this is for the protection of the indigenous people who would suffer greatly if they came in contact with others. (think flu epidemics wiping out a culture with no immunity and you’d be on the right track) have a good one.  (ps far too much shark fin fishing going on for my liking!!! and also palns for international hotels and airports)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone familiar with the Andaman or Nicobar Islands of India, I would appreciate any and all information.  I am very interested in unspoiled beaches and have a mission to travel the world over to find the most beautiful and pristine beaches.  I understand these are some of the Islands I need to add to my conquests. Thank you. Scott, Los Angeles

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Anyone familiar with the Andaman or Nicobar Islands of India, I would appreciate any and all information.  I am very interested in unspoiled beaches and have a mission to travel the world over to find the most beautiful and pristine beaches.  I understand these are some of the Islands I need to add to my conquests. Thank you. Scott, Los Angeles

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I was there a few years ago with my family. It’s really quite, nice people, clean. But there is not much to do there, since you are allowed to go only to a few places. The water was not so clear. George

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Question:

My wife and I will be visiting the St. Joe River area after the Fourth of July.

My friend and I were up to the end of the road last August, early Sept.  That was my first fly-fishing experience, so I can’t give much advice.  Pretty much every fly my friend gave me worked very well.  Elk-hair caddis is the only one I remember.  Cuthroat all over at the end of the road.  Mostly small ones, 7-8".  I got one that was about 10-11" but he left half his lower jaw on my hook.  I wasn’t too happy about that. There was a bear rampaging around the campground at that time.  F&G was going to catch him.  Just a young blackie and I’m certain he’d be gone now, but it can be pretty "wild" out there. Good luck.  Very beautiful up there. E. O’Daniel IDAHO

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Howdy, My wife and I will be visiting the St. Joe River area after the Fourth of July. Is there anyone out there who could help with info about good water and good hatches. Thanks, Marty

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Marty, The St. Joe is still feeling the effects of a huge snowpack this year and is still running quite a bit higher than it normally would be this time of year.  However, in my experience the further upstream you can get the better the fishing…..above Prospector Creek is C&R and below is 1 Cutthroat limit over 14". The cutthroat on the Joe aren’t picky…..just about any dry fly will draw strikes but some of the better ones are Renegades, hoppers, elk hair caddis, humpies, and royal wulffs.  I have heard there is a fly called the St. Joe Special but I have never seen it and have never used it.  Hare’s ears and prince nymphs will also work well. Good luck! Dustin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Howdy, My wife and I will be visiting the St. Joe River area after the Fourth of July. Is there anyone out there who could help with info about good water and good hatches. Thanks, Marty

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Question:

I’m going to be in Bonita Springs, Florida and will have a 17ft Boston Whaler at my disposal for fly fishing from April 29 – May 3rd.   Could anyone give me some suggestions on some flies to tie for Snook and Redfish.  I’m a trout/steelhead fisherman from Washington State and this will be me first attempt at this type of fishing.   Thanks in advance Scott D. Craig                     The members of this genus (Salvelinus)                                    are by far the most active and handsome                                    of the trout, they live in the coldest, Lacey, WA.                            cleanest and most secluded waters. Check out the homepage                No higher praise can be given to a http://www.eskimo.com/~craigs         Salmonid than to say, it is a charr.                                          (Jordan and Evermann 1896) — Scott D. Craig                     The members of this genus (Salvelinus) Fisheries/Aquatic Biologist       are by far the most active and handsome U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service       of the trout, they live in the coldest,

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For what it’s worth, most population experts are expecting the world population to hit a peak in the next century and begin to decline.

Are those the same experts who said the DOW wouldn’t go above 4000? — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

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Why single out recreation for fees?  What about education, highways, national defense?

     A common argument for the fees is, "Let those who use it pay for it." What makes it unique from the rest is that virtually everyone uses education, highways, and defense.  Good point, though. Take this fee-based taxation to the extreme, and you’ll see how miserable life can be.  Just imaging the nuisance if all roads were toll roads.

     Yep. Government is a necessary institution, and I prefer paying for it once per year, not every time I turn around.

     Yes, definitely.  I think that a yearly pass for the USFS/BLM/NPS is reasonably inexpensive, but I don’t know if that’s just good in one area.      The big question is, who should pay for the forests?  All citizens or just those who use them?  We all like tax cuts, but I’m not sure that the National Forests and the people who use them should have to pay for themselves.  Sometimes government funding is necessary.  This may be one of those times. — Got maps?  TopoWeb does.  http://members.xoom.com/Topo_Web

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Why single out recreation for fees?  What about education,

Property taxes. Not a good system. The rich get better schools, which perpetuates inequality. highways,

There is a usage fee for highways — the gasoline tax. It should be much higher. national defense?  

Since we all benefit from national defense we all pay, through income taxes. I’m not too crazy about paying a million buck a pop for cruise missiles in Kosovo. And if recreationists are paying fees to use the forest, why are loggers and miners in the same forest subsidized?

They shouldn’t be subsidised. Laws governing mining on public lands, in particular, should be reformed. Right now it’s a giveaway. Logging is a little better, but still very bad. Grazing is very bad. All these fees should come up to match private-sector prices. Take this fee-based taxation to the extreme, and you’ll see how miserable life can be.  Just imaging the nuisance if all roads were toll roads.

I support a policy that has those that use the resource pay for its upkeep, with some proportion payed by society as a whole. Then the people who use it become stakeholders and they damn well want their money’s worth. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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Up until the past decade, it would have been a naive notion.  Not only were the fees not kept by the area used, but I believe (someone will correct me if I’m wrong), they weren’t kept for the use of the system in general.  They were dumped into the revenue for the state or US, whichever applied.  There’s been a big move of recent years that’s had the effect of keeping more money in the individual places it’s collected, or at least within the parks and forests divisions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Until I started reading this thread, I was under the naive notion that use fees I’ve been paying help support the resource I’m using.  It pisses me off that this is not the case. Don’t get too upset about it.  At least if you are using a less popular resource.  If everything went back to where it came in, we’d only be left with the Disneylands (Yosemite, Yellostone, etc) — Fight Spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email)                 at http://www.cauce.org/ It is there as an experiment to see if email spammers scan content

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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 Until I started reading this thread, I was under the naive notion that use fees I’ve been paying help support the resource I’m using.  It pisses me off that this is not the case.

Don’t get too upset about it.  At least if you are using a less popular resource.  If everything went back to where it came in, we’d only be left with the Disneylands (Yosemite, Yellostone, etc) — Fight Spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial Email)                  at http://www.cauce.org/  It is there as an experiment to see if email spammers scan content — Pete Hickey               |                         |       VEIWIT University of Ottawa      |                         |      mirrors for Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 562-5800×1008    |       dyslexics.

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …snipped information should you want to do a search.  As for encountering a "standing army of park-police" on a trout stream, that is highly improbable.  The US Park Police are only found in a few areas, such as the parks in Washington, DC; the Bay area parks, around the St. Louis arch, and in a few other urban areas.   You are much more likely to encounter some impoverished interpretive ranger out on a trail. …snipped Actually Richard, the function of the Park Ranger is almost entirely law enforcement.  Most of the "interpretive" work in the parks is now done by volunteers.   Take a look at the job recruitment specifications.  They want applicants with military and/or law enforcement backgrounds… not naturalists.  Even the NPS Ranger school at Grand Canyon is primarily concerned with crowd, traffic and riot control… certainly not interpretation. I backpack in the National Parks extensivley, particularly Yosemite & Sequoia, and on my last several trips the only Rangers I met (both NPS and USFS) were only interested in inspecting my permit.  They carried sidearms and had no time to stand and chat about the wonders of nature.

Sorry Kurt, but I speak from experience _as_ a park ranger, and only a small minority of badged personnel actually have law enforcement commissions.  In every park in which I have worked, interpretation, resource management and other rangers far outnumber the law enforcement personnel.  I know quite well the function of the ranger jobs I have held and my varied responsibilities were not related to law enforcement.  As for job recruitments, you can look for yourself on the opm.gov site; most ranger positions do have certifications based on experience in natural history, history or resource management.  Yes, some jobs do require a law enforcement commission, but most do not.  The Albright Training Center at Grand Canyon is not a law enforcement academy, though some courses are taught there.  Most permanent protection rangers instead are schooled at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in the southeast.  Rangers still do most of the interpretive work, too, though volunteers are a big help in a time of declining budgets. Your personal experience may indeed have included backcountry rangers checking you for your permit, but that is not what most rangers do at all.  I am still pretty certain you have never encountered a US Park Police person in checking permits on the trail; they are not in most wild parks.  Still hope your fishing is going well.

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…snipped information should you want to do a search.  As for encountering a "standing army of park-police" on a trout stream, that is highly improbable.  The US Park Police are only found in a few areas, such as the parks in Washington, DC; the Bay area parks, around the St. Louis arch, and in a few other urban areas.  You are much more likely to encounter some impoverished interpretive ranger out on a trail.

…snipped Actually Richard, the function of the Park Ranger is almost entirely law enforcement.  Most of the "interpretive" work in the parks is now done by volunteers.   Take a look at the job recruitment specifications.  They want applicants with military and/or law enforcement backgrounds… not naturalists.  Even the NPS Ranger school at Grand Canyon is primarily concerned with crowd, traffic and riot control… certainly not interpretation. I backpack in the National Parks extensivley, particularly Yosemite & Sequoia, and on my last several trips the only Rangers I met (both NPS and USFS) were only interested in inspecting my permit.  They carried sidearms and had no time to stand and chat about the wonders of nature. . . . Kurt

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rw I support a policy that has those that use the resource pay for its upkeep, with some proportion payed by society as a whole. Then the people who use it become stakeholders and they damn well want their money’s worth.

I agree with you in principle, the problem of course is setting the balance between support from users and support from the general fund.  It certainly should never be the case that use fees go back into the general fund as apparently(according to other sources posting here) they do.  Until I started reading this thread, I was under the naive notion that use fees I’ve been paying help support the resource I’m using.  It pisses me off that this is not the case. I can see how big business would support use fees as a long term strategy for usurping more resources.  Use fees discourage lower income people from using public resources and at the same time sour them toward people who want to use general money, which might otherwise be used for social development, to preserve natural resources .  A clever ploy for eroding political support for resource preservation.  (Or am I just paranoid?)

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Say what you want,flame to the empty void.You all make some valid points but in the end I dont mind the small fees that pile up every time I turn around.And they do add up (list of last years expenses ommitted,you’re welcome) I like the improvements that I have seen happen to our beloved nat parks.If it keeps out the losers and sends them somewhere else fine.If it means finding a reasonably acommodating restroom when its desired fine.If it keeps the roads in good enough shape, fine.I wish that the industrys that benifit from the parks were footing the bill but I also wish that I was 10 foot tall and bulletproof.none of these things will happen.So what its just money and like love and power its just a collective hallucination.Tell ya what Ill drop an extra five in the next collection box I come across just for you guys.                             Zoc

Public lands belong to the public and shouldn’t be held hostage for those who can afford them. My next objection is that right now I have so many god damned season passes on my windshield that I can’t see out of it to drive the truck. Nonetheless, despite all the tags, it seems like whatever area I’m entering requires a NEW tag that I don’t have. One national tag would seem reasonable. The current system sucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Leave no trace or don’t leave home.

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Say what you want,flame to the empty void.You all make some valid points but in the end I dont mind the small fees that pile up every time I turn around.And they do add up (list of last years expenses ommitted,you’re welcome) I like the improvements that I have seen happen to our beloved nat parks.If it keeps out the losers and sends them somewhere else fine.If it means finding a reasonably acommodating restroom when its desired fine.If it keeps the roads in good enough shape, fine.I wish that the industrys that benifit from the parks were footing the bill but I also wish that I was 10 foot tall and bulletproof.none of these things will happen.So what its just money and like love and power its just a collective hallucination.Tell ya what Ill drop an extra five in the next collection box I come across just for you guys.                              Zoc

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This is irrespective of the fact that this is a clandestine tax increase.  These fees go into the general fund.  They are not applied to the areas that collect them.  Nor are national park entrance fees, by the way.  And I’m glad of that.  Because the more money the park-managers get, the more they build bureaucratic empires, erect roads and visitors centers, pass pointless regulations, and deploy a standing army of park-police.  This is not what a visit to a trout-steam is supposed to be about.

Your information on park entrance fees is somewhat out of date.  Under the current demonstration program, 80% of the fees stay in the park that collects them, and the other 20% goes towards other parks.  The NPS web site has all the information should you want to do a search.  As for encountering a "standing army of park-police" on a trout stream, that is highly improbable.  The US Park Police are only found in a few areas, such as the parks in Washington, DC; the Bay area parks, around the St. Louis arch, and in a few other urban areas.  You are much more likely to encounter some impoverished interpretive ranger out on a trail. As for building a bureaucratic empire, remember that most developments in the parks are prompted or directed by Congressional legislation.  If you really want to make a difference, work through your representatives, and make your voice heard at the ample opportunities parks provide for comment during general management plan revisions and other basic planning processes. Good luck with your fishing.

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Note: Please forward this message to every outdoors person you know. This is one case where the quantity of letters is important. STOP THE COMMERCIALIZATION, PRIVATIZATION AND MOTORIZATION OF PUBLIC LANDS —  LETTERS REQUIRED BEFORE APRIL 13, 1999 The Fee-Demonstration Program is currently temporary on  some of our national forests. But supporters of the forest fees are working to make fees permanent next year, locking fees in place well before the test program’s scheduled ending in September 2001. At the same time, they are pretending that the American public has no problem with forest fees! The powerful Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee held Fee-Demo hearings on March 3, 1999 – but they did not invite testimony from anyone except those corporations and motorized user groups which support Forest Fees. On April 13th, we will have OUR CHANCE TO BE HEARD when the House Interior Appropriations subcommittee holds its Public Witness Day. Please send a quick letter or postcard by April 10th. State: – Your opposition to forest fees – Ask the subcommittee to increase Forest Service recreation budgets (so as to maintain our National Forests without visitor fees) – Ask that your letter be part of the record for Public Witness Day on April 13th.  Send your comments to:      Congressman Ralph Regula      House Interior Appropriations subcommittee      B-308 Rayburn Building      Washington, D.C. 20515 Public input is absolutely VITAL if the battle to save our wilderness is going to be won. Letters sent after April 10th are still helpful. The Sierra Club and over 75 other environmental groups oppose the imposition of recreation access and user fees on public lands. Environmental activists oppose user fees on public land, including wilderness lands, for reasons beyond opposition to payment of fees for use of public lands for which the public already pays taxes. The more serious concern is that the recreation fee demonstration program is not a benign effort to fund needed programs but is the leading edge of the recreation industry’s attempts to transform public land recreation into commercial products. The trend to deprive federal agencies of adequate recreation budgets and force them to charge fees instead is directly related to efforts to privatize, commercialize, and motorize recreation on the public lands.  Please help by making your concerns known to Congress. For those not yet familiar with the ongoing efforts to turn industrial strength wreckreation into the next extractive forest industry, additional information can be found at the Wild Wilderness web site. http://www.wildwilderness.org PLEASE SEND YOUR LETTER ASAP AND HAVE YOUR FRIENDS DO THE SAME.

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Note: Please forward this message to every outdoors person you know. This is one case where the quantity of letters is important.

     Great.  So the quality of letters isn’t important?  We should just flood D.C. with letters to promote our own interests without any rational discussion?  I don’t think so.  Even if I agreed with your view, I don’t support campaigns like yours and Bluewater’s.      I’m actually not entirely sure where I stand on this issue. Fishermen and hunters have to pay for their activities on public lands. Shouldn’t we?  On the other hand, it seems like a crime to have to pay to set foot on "public" land.  But then again, you have to pay to get into National Parks (and State Parks, for that matter), whether on foot or in a car.  It’s a somewhat complex issue.  One thing is sure:  Encouraging snail-spam won’t get us anywhere. PLEASE SEND YOUR LETTER ASAP AND HAVE YOUR FRIENDS DO THE SAME.

     No, thanks.  And I don’t have any friends, thanks. — Got maps?  TopoWeb does.  http://members.xoom.com/Topo_Web

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I live in a town of less than 200,00 people.  Of these are more than 3,000 native born Chinese.  Mostly legal. An even larger population of undocumented, illegal Mexicans exist, consequently we have some great Chinese and Mexican food available. Instead of permitting other countries to make their own way we interfere and then let their brightest minds and most courageous individuals jump a boat, raft or even legally immigrate to this once spacious country. For ourselves we cannot think past tomorrow’s paycheck or stock report, all the while bemoaning the loss of jobs and the downsizing used to increase the bottom line. I have long considered that perhaps it is time to use our outdoors as a private club.  Buy a lifetime membership now and pay annual dues.  The membership could stay with the family, passing down through the generations. As sad as it is, there is, possibly,  no other way to preserve our outdoors. . . .Politicians can now garner enough votes  to get elected by promising a group of individuals more welfare or unemployment or legal status or whatever, the point is . . .politicians will gladly rape and loot and pillage our resources for another kick-back or term in office.  Who then will watch over what we know, under the present system, will one day be gone forever…our children will likely never see an old growth forest. The majority of the time, our influence on young lives is not enough to counter-balance the E. F. Hutton and Niki ads. How many representatives would prosper by telling those in the inner cities, " They would have more if we didn’t waste money on those old parks and forests that no one ever goes to anyway?" What effect would our voices then have in the overall scheme of things.  . . .sometimes I think about things like this . . .and then, like I am doing tomorrow, I go fishing before it’s all gone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . john . . . .

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(comments about the pressures caused by immigration were here) I have long considered that perhaps it is time to use our outdoors as a private club.  Buy a lifetime membership now and pay annual dues.  The membership could stay with the family, passing down through the

generations. The European aristocracy tried that. It claimed the forests for its own use and attempted to lock out the commoners. It didn’t work out. It wouldn’t here. As sad as it is, there is, possibly,  no other way to preserve our

outdoors. If that is true then there is no chance for preservation. Let us hope we can find a feasible way instead. . . .Politicians can now garner enough votes  to get elected by promising a group of individuals more welfare or unemployment or legal status or whatever, the point is . . .politicians will gladly rape and loot and pillage our resources for another kick-back or term in office.

Yes, well, that’s virtual democracy for you. Destroy the Constitution, which while still alive circumscribed the areas of activity permitted to the federal government, and what you get in the age of mass media and bloc voting is a government of unlimited powers, including the power to destroy. You also get pols in charge willing and free to do anything, anything at all, that helps them cling to power through just one more election. Who then will watch over what we know, under the present system, will one day be gone forever…our children will likely never see an old growth forest.

Yes, that is quite likely. Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em, while they last. The majority of the time, our influence on young lives is not enough to counter-balance the E. F. Hutton and Niki ads.

No one with such a skewed view of the problem has a prayer of finding a solution. It is not just mass marketers who are creating the culture of immediate gratification that drives virtual democracy. It is also the pols who claim to be working on behalf of those very young lives you mention, and the bureaucrats they hire to carry out the policies bought by the bloc votes and money fountains that give them power. The American state has become a vast superstructure of institutions, public, private and hybrid, that are steadily building their own interlocked system of autonomy and are subject to an ever decreasing level of control by the people. How many representatives would prosper by telling those in the inner cities, " They would have more if we didn’t waste money on those old parks and forests that no one ever goes to anyway?"

Most representatives who have such constituents of course say that to them, though often not in so many words. Elected representatives habitually pander to bloc votes. It’s what they do for a living. The problem is not that, it is that we have allowed the rise of a government, hand in hand with other institutions not usually (and, IMO, mistakenly) not typically seen as part of government, not strictly limited in its permitted powers. That gives those representatives the means to seize and use the people’s resources (all kinds, including tax monies, public lands, whatever) to pay whatever their various bloc votes and campaign contributors demand as the sale price for their critical support during elections. What effect would our voices then have in the overall scheme of things.

By "our" voices, I suppose you mean those of us who love the American outdoors. We tend to be individualistic. Our voices, plural, are individually insignificant against the roar of the organized special interests. We sometimes try organizing ourselves, but it goes against the grain because in order to do it each of us is still forced to subordinate his voice within what inevitably becomes just another special interest institution, one that claims to represent us but that always ends up representing the preferences of a clique or bloc, thus becoming corrupt in exactly the same way the institutions the one we are deluded is "ours" is working to influence. We thereby become part of the problem. . . .sometimes I think about things like this . . .and then, like I am doing tomorrow, I go fishing before it’s all gone . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Smart man. That may well be all you can do. My solution, in fact I think the only possible solution, is reform of the political system to establish a new structure of limits on the power of the American state. That is a revolutionary view, and I do not know how to bring about such drastic change. At least as long as we are as prosperous and well-defended as we now are it is most unlikely to happen, and that means we will continue to experience an erosion of both control of the established power structure of our own society and the resources we outdoors lovers need to pursue our passion. I suspect you right to enjoy what’s left while you can. Stephen W. Anderson Rocky Mount, NC

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I support fees. I think that sufficent user fees should be charged for the BLM and park services to be self-sufficient, BUT NO MORE. At times the adminstration has starved the system, and others treated as a source of general revenues. The US park and land system is one of the better in the world and a major source of international tourism.

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I support fees. I think that sufficent user fees should be charged for the BLM and park services to be self-sufficient, BUT NO MORE. At times the adminstration has starved the system, and others treated as a source of general revenues. The US park and land system is one of the better in the world and a major source of international tourism.

This is all true, but some see the recreation fee program as an effort to shift the burden of support to recreation, and when those revenues fail to meet the needs of the public lands the resource extractors will step in and say "See?  Those hikers and fishermen don’t really want all that land, so give it to us instead."   For over a century federal tax revenues have subsidized the extraction of minerals, grazing of cattle, and harvest of timber from the public lands.  Why should recreationists– whose impact is minimal and needs are few –suddenly be asked to carry the weight when corporate America still benefits from subsidies? Why, for example, shouldn’t an excise tax on minerals pay for campgrounds? If you look at who is supporting the recreation fee demonstration program the lines become clear.  If agribusiness, big timber, and mining corporations are for it, then who do you think really stands to benefit? Recreation lands need federal support, but that support should come from those that are converting publically owned resources into private profit, not families that spend two weekends a year camping on the National Forest. -drl — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University        Dept. of History                 "Nothing interesting occurred today…"         -Meriwether Lewis at Ft. Clatsop, Oregon, Jan.4th, 1806

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(comments about the pressures caused by immigration were here)

Seems like damn near every person has their own private Bogyman about why the fishing and the hunting and the open spaces have gone to hell and their own solution (none of which are going to work) and no one will admit to the real cause.  When I was kid the US population was just under a million and a half and I had a ball.  Be glad you’re not in your grand kids shoes.  Even if they live in Deer Park, Montana they won’t they won’t be able to see much difference if they move to the Bronx.  The days of open space are gone.  Be glad you at least saw the tail end. Hank

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Seems like damn near every person has their own private Bogyman about why the fishing and the hunting and the open spaces have gone to hell and their own solution (none of which are going to work) and no one will admit to the real cause.  When I was kid the US population was just under a million and a half and I had a ball.  Be glad you’re not in your grand kids shoes.  Even if they live in Deer Park, Montana they won’t they won’t be able to see much difference if they move to the Bronx.  The days of open space are gone.  Be glad you at least saw the tail end. Hank

Hey Hank, you must be pretty old if the US population was 1.5 million people when you were a kid.   For what it’s worth, most population experts are expecting the world population to hit a peak in the next century and begin to decline. Later,      - Ken — "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish  they are after."             – Henry David Thoreau

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Just how old are you Hank….One and a half mil….bout 1810 or therabouts? Waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (comments about the pressures caused by immigration were here) Seems like damn near every person has their own private Bogyman about why the fishing and the hunting and the open spaces have gone to hell and their own solution (none of which are going to work) and no one will admit to the real cause.  When I was kid the US population was just under a million and a half and I had a ball.  Be glad you’re not in your grand kids shoes.  Even if they live in Deer Park, Montana they won’t they won’t be able to see much difference if they move to the Bronx.  The days of open space are gone.  Be glad you at least saw the tail end. Hank

–          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS/HOME.HTM

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Sorry Ken, sometimes the fingers get going before the brain.  That was 150 million in the thirties.  Got any solution for the excess 5 Billion that showed up in the interim?  I don’t, Hank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Hank, you must be pretty old if the US population was 1.5 million people when you were a kid.   For what it’s worth, most population experts are expecting the world population to hit a peak in the next century and begin to decline. Later,     – Ken — "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."             – Henry David Thoreau

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I support fees. I think that sufficent user fees should be charged for the BLM and park services to be self-sufficient, BUT NO MORE. At times the

Why single out recreation for fees?  What about education, highways, national defense?  And if recreationists are paying fees to use the forest, why are loggers and miners in the same forest subsidized? Take this fee-based taxation to the extreme, and you’ll see how miserable life can be.  Just imaging the nuisance if all roads were toll roads. Government is a necessary institution, and I prefer paying for it once per year, not every time I turn around. Also note: these fees do not go to the BLM or park service.  They go into the general fund, just like your income tax. Finally, and I think this is the most important point of all, if the value of public lands is measured in economic terms — how much the visitor is willing to pay — this is the first step toward selling off the public lands to the highest bidder.  If visitors are only willing to pay $100, and developers are willing to pay $1000, does that mean the developers should have their way?  I believe the value of public lands lies much deeper than mere economy. — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

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Sorry Ken, sometimes the fingers get going before the brain.  That was 150 million in the thirties.  Got any solution for the excess 5 Billion that showed up in the interim?  I don’t,

NATO and Milosevic are working on that problem as hard as they both can do. Give ‘em time. Stephen W. Anderson Rocky Mount, NC

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    I’m actually not entirely sure where I stand on this issue. Fishermen and hunters have to pay for their activities on public lands.

The point is that under the proposed legislation, in addition the fishing license you already have to buy, and the campground fee you already have to pay, you will also have to pay simply for just being there by the River.  The experimental fee programs mentioned already charge $5 per day at the Bighorn and Green rivers for instance.   I personally find these programs an obnoxious nuisance at best. Every time I turn around I’m filling out paper-work, paying fees, running around trying to find correct change, etc.  This is not what a visit to a trout-stream is supposed to be about. This is irrespective of the fact that this is a clandestine tax increase.  These fees go into the general fund.  They are not applied to the areas that collect them.  Nor are national park entrance fees, by the way.  And I’m glad of that.  Because the more money the park-managers get, the more they build bureaucratic empires, erect roads and visitors centers, pass pointless regulations, and deploy a standing army of park-police.  This is not what a visit to a trout-steam is supposed to be about. I for one feel strongly about this issue and will write a letter. — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

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Question:

Could you *really* get lead poisoning from crimping split shot with your teeth? Bryce

Over time, yup. Peter

Response:

No, but you could get a hernia in your hemostat. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re worried about lead poisoning, crimp it hard with your hemostats. Works for me.Pete C Could you *really* get lead poisoning from crimping split shot with your teeth? Bryce

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The lead paint was a problem because kids actually eat the paint. Lead is not soluable so unless you inadvertantly swallow the shot its probably a low level problem. The one exception I see is if you get some lead caught in your teeth. Lead is soft and it could stick to a filling or crevas in you teeth and later come off when your chewing food. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you *really* get lead poisoning from crimping split shot with your teeth? Bryce I don’t know.  Better safe than sorry. Pete C Young children have been known to contract lead poisoning from gnawing objects painted with lead based paint( in the old days!) — Bill

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Change brands of shot.  Some are harder than others and definitely stay on better.

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Don’t cast. Stalk. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Try running the leader through the split twice before crimping.  This does put a wrap on the outside of the shot that may be subject to wear.  I have also used figure 8 knots on thick leader to prevent sliding.  That knot is relatively easy to undo. William Buchman

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

Brian Putting the other smart-assed answers aside, I’ll assume you’ve done all the usual things.  Probably you are overhead casting, perhaps some fasle casting, and putting some effort into it to avoid clipping your ears.  Since the splitshot loads up the rod more, the whole contraption is now arriving at the end of the cast with some violence, sending your splitshot into the opposite bank at just under mach one. So instead of high powered overhead casts, use a gentle lob with a big open loop, a flick or a roll.  I usually allow my line to pull out straight downstream at the end of the drift, then pull gently toward the point upstream that I’m casting to.  A little flick and the line just rolls out without any fuss.  My 9 1/2′ seven wt. is the only rod I’ll use a conventional small loop, overhead cast with splitshot, as it has enough length and muscle to keep the line up without any extra effort on my part.   Instead of all sorts of fancy replacements and gimmicks; stop false casting, slow down your delivery, open up the loop and let the rod work.  Stepping down to a lighter or slower rod may help too. Peter

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Tie a knot over the split and make sure the knot is over the back side of the split and not along the crimp seam. If its on the seam it will open up the crimp and you lose another shot. You will never lose a shot this way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

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Scrap the paper off of those "twister ties" that come on loaves of bread……use them for sinker action…..I love ‘em. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

Response:

Don’t cast. Stalk. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Don’t cast. Plop! Mr. G. "Guilt replaced Catch and Kill with Catch & Release" ; ) "cast, drift . . . cast . . . drift . . .?" Is this nymph going to work or not Tim?

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Pinch shot onto line and see if that helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

Hi Brian, Sometimes the problem is squeezing them on to tight, especially if you’re using lead shot.  The lead shot is a lot softer than the "lead free" stuff and if you’re using either your teeth (not good – lead is poison you know), or forceps to close the split and you squeeze too hard, it opens up the back part of the split and the shot slips all over the place.   I usually put the split shot on the line and squeeze it with my fingers just hard enough to hold it.  Then I will take my forceps and squeeze it shut from the back of the shot, not from the split side.  I watch the split close and when it meets and compresses slightly I *stop* squeezing.  This way you close the back of the split securely and you can see if you’ve overtightened it.  It rarely moves with this technique.  However, as Peter and "another damn guide", both pointed out excessive forceful false casting may knock it loose anyway. Use water-loading as much as possible instead of false casts when fishing nymphs with shot (easier to do, and fewerangles). I’ve also used the "wrap it through twice" trick that William Buchman suggested, especially on soft BB shot and it works well.  I always expect it to break where it’s wrapped around the shot and it never does.  I’m still nervous about doing that, but it does stop it from slipping.                       Hope this helps,                              Dan Dan Gracia Orvis

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Put it between two molars and bite down.  It’s always worked for me. Later,     – Ken

Lucky bugger, I haven’t got two molars:-I — Bill

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I have two molars Bill, but they don’t meet. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Put it between two molars and bite down.  It’s always worked for me. Later,     – Ken Lucky bugger, I haven’t got two molars:-I — Bill

Response:

If you’re worried about lead poisoning, crimp it hard with your hemostats. Works for me. Pete C

Response:

If you’re worried about lead poisoning, crimp it hard with your hemostats. Works for me.Pete C

Could you *really* get lead poisoning from crimping split shot with your teeth? Bryce

Response:

Could you *really* get lead poisoning from crimping split shot with your teeth? Bryce

I don’t know.  Better safe than sorry. Pete C

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Could you *really* get lead poisoning from crimping split shot with your teeth? Bryce I don’t know.  Better safe than sorry. Pete C

Young children have been known to contract lead poisoning from gnawing objects painted with lead based paint( in the old days!) — Bill

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first pinch with your hemostats/pliers then try reducing the force of an number of your false casts DryFly Another Damn Giude – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks.

Um, you *are* crimping them closed, aren’t you?

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no problem! Do  not use split shot.  Use twist ons.  Trust me the way to go if ya gotta get down.

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Um, you *are* crimping them closed, aren’t you?

Maybe God is telling him to use dry flies. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

_______ Brian, you should learn to tie your own leaders.  Go andbuy yourself a complete set of hard and soft Maxima Leader Material in clear mono. Order a bottle of Knot-Perfect from me for $3 which I will absorb shipping charges and labor/handling, etc.  A deal, I assure you. Use Knot-Perfect on each knot and at the tippet knot, use them as stoppers for your lead. There are other ways, but for nymphing, and/or lead flat/wire at knots, you will be much better off then using tapered leaders.  Tapered, single strand leaders take a lot of mobility and tricks away from you. Reconsider:  - or – shall we all revisit "Hand Tied Leaders" (?) I love making them. See: http://www.gink.com Place an  order and I’ll include a surprise.  I sort of am able to do things other employees can’t.  I’m the President. Mr. G.

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks. Brian

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I’ve bought cheap split shot, I’ve bought expensive split shot but no mater what I try the damn things inevitably fall off (or slip down to the fly.)  I also tried tying on a dropper line with a small knot to keep the split shot from sliding off but, of course, it slid off.  Anyone else have this problem and a solution.  Thanks.

Put it between two molars and bite down.  It’s always worked for me. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Question:

Sounds like fun!  Where do I order supplies? Thanks!

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Good idea Judy— I "haunt" office supplies places like Staples and Office Depot to look for clear or transluscent envelopes which are probably similar to what you are describing. Makes it so easy to find what you are working on and looks very neat stored. Since I bought my see through vinyl bag, I want to buy more! It looks so neat storing my current project and because I never work on one thing at a time—I can use a few more clear vinyl bags to store other ongoing projects as well as stash I need right away. I shall be looking at the July summer sales so I can buy more clear vinyl tote bags! I’ve noticed clear vinyl zipper cosmetic bags in different sizes too but the ones I wanted to buy had shampoos and lotions in them I didn’t want—does anyone know a source to buy these bags…empty? — Lula from Wooly Dreams Design I only like WORK when it’s attached to a NEEDLE…. http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Lula, Mine is on show as well… I have a small [I work in hand] zip lock carry thing (technical term) 24cm x 18cm. [Just dug one out... they are Transparent Data Envelopes]  The really good thing about them is that the chart of my carry along project can be placed against one side and is easy to read without removal. The only problem is that the buisness card holder isn’t quite wide enough for my bus weekly [if bought Monday they die around Thursday].

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Hi Judy I read your memo on plastic bags for needlework.  Do not leave your needlepoint in plastic bags for a very long time.  Wool needs to breathe and if it is in plastic it does not breathe.  For a short time its o.k. But not good for a long period of time; the wool will rot.  I am a needlepointer and new to AOL.  I have been on Compuserve.  I am thinking of cancelling Compuserve. EdithNYC  

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I know similar advice has been posted before, but friends, check out the fishing section of your local sporting goods store. There are all sorts of nifty little (and big) carrying cases with compartments just right for our stitching stuff. Yesterday I was looking for some fishing line to use for basting gridlines on my linen (helps count, doesn’t get caught in the stitches) and came home with a soft-sided zippered case designed for fishing supplies. It has heavyweight zip-lock style bags with sturdy adhesive tabs with holes to go on the two rings attached to the bag. The outside of the case is water repellent and has a handle. It’s perfect for carting around all of those odd fibers for my current needlepoint project. I’ll post the name brand, etc. of the one I bought if anyone is interested, but just go and see what they have in your area.

You are soooo right about the fishing department.  I got a great little box that fits in my tote bag at KMart’s department – 2 sides with compartments – now holding my sissors, needles (in small wooden cases), pen, pencil….. the modern "chatalaine"!  I also got a set of small cases that screw together for a better price than the craft "megastore" nearby.  Also, if you or DH or someone else fly fishes and ties flys – my DH is always eying my stash – he loves the many different fibers – especially some of the flashy ones.  Now, I always go along when he wants fishing stuff and he likes to come along when I go to the XS or needlepoint store… Kandy June

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I know similar advice has been posted before, but friends, check out the fishing section of your local sporting goods store.

        SNIP  I’ll post the name brand, etc. of the one I bought if anyone is interested, but just go and see what they have in your area. I’m interested — please post the info! Chris

Okay, Chris, the case I bought is called a Spinner Wrap, brand name TackleLogic, manufactured by AmSport. There are also two larger wrap cases with different names, but the same basic design. I found mine at Oshman’s here in Houston. June

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Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today! A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on top–and two long handles.

Hi Lula, Mine is on show as well… I have a small [I work in hand] zip lock carry thing (technical term) 24cm x 18cm. [Just dug one out... they are Transparent Data Envelopes]  The really good thing about them is that the chart of my carry along project can be placed against one side and is easy to read without removal. The only problem is that the buisness card holder isn’t quite wide enough for my bus weekly [if bought Monday they die around Thursday]. Judy  

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In that case, how ’bout the new bags by Ziploc?  I’m talking about the plastic bags sold specifically for veggie storage.  They’re riddled w/ holes, to allow the veggies to breathe. pj I read your memo on plastic bags for needlework.  Do not leave your needlepoint in plastic bags for a very long time.  Wool needs to breathe and if it is in plastic it does not breathe.  For a short time its o.k.

… — WCU Computer Center          | Western Carolina University  |  "Now, if I had a brain and it wasn’t Cullowhee, N.C. 28723        |   in my head, where would I keep it?" 704-227-7282                 |                          -Ryan Steele

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I read your memo on plastic bags for needlework.  Do not leave your needlepoint in plastic bags for a very long time.  Wool needs to breathe and if it is in plastic it does not breathe.  For a short time its o.k. But not good for a long period of time; the wool will rot.  I am a needlepointer

Edith: What is a short time and what is a long time?   I use Ziploc bags for my works-in-progress.  I stitch my way through meetings and dropping a Ziploc into my tote is easy.   Also, the Ziplocs keep things separated in the basket at home.   I estimate a needlepoint (with wool) project is in progress for 6-8 months (depending on my enthusiasm and the number of meetings I have). Speaking of plastic, I keep all my Paternayan in Rubbermaid plastic storage boxes.  I have for about 10 years.  To my eye and nose the yarn is as fresh as it would be had it continued to live in the copier-paper boxes it had inhabited before.  (Rubbermaid is translucent, copier paper boxes aren’t, hence the change.)    Last year, temporarily, my sewing room was in the basement.   Neither yarn nor floss nor fabric (I am a quilter) suffered.    [Basement is finished and a dehumidifier runs all summer. -- I'm able to be up- stairs now and appreciate the sunlight.] Nann

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Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today! A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on top–and two long handles. I always did think it was a shame to hide all those pretty yarns and threads along with the canvas stretched on scroll bars that I happen to be working on! Now I can be a show off for the summer months when I head off on my travels again. No problem with moisture–the bag is an open tote and kept out of the sun. — Lula from Wooly Dreams Design http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/

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Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today! A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on top–and two long handles.

And are you planning on letting us know where we can get such a bag?   Hmmmm????  ;) Tara R. Scholtz         University of Maryland at College Park If training has not made a horse more beautiful, nobler in carriage, more attentive in his behavior, revealing pleasure in his own accomplishment…then he has not truly been schooled in dressage.                                 -Col. Handler

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Hi Tara– Since you’re in MD — take a ride to Laurel and the big open shopping center on RT 1 — it’s a shop named Gallo a few doors from the Woolworths—this is the first time I went there–it’a place full of inexpensive clothing and accessories. There were some bigger clear vinly tote bags there too with a black quilted bottom and trim—leopard bottom and trim and gold vinyl trim one. Also other vinyl totes in see through bright colors. All the different sized bags were all priced at $10 Nice and fun way to tote around and show off the needlework you’re working on!!! — Lula from Wooly Dreams Design http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And are you planning on letting us know where we can get such a bag? Hmmmm????  ;) Tara R. Scholtz         University of Maryland at College Park

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 Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I  found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today!  A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the  plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on  top–and two long handles. TAnd are you planning on letting us know where we can get such a bag?  Hmmmm????  ;)   Well I don’t know about any one elses bags but I made mine. I was looking for a specific piece of fabric in my stash when I ran across a piece I had stitched a while back and had put back into the box of fabrics when done pending money for framing. Well I set the piece aside on the sewing table to get the the fabric I needed and when I went to pick up the stitched dragon I noticed to my amazement that the fabric I had been working a quilt with matched the color of the dragon I went out and bought another yard of that fabric and used the dragon for the front of a "tote bag" to haul my stitching projects with  Made it about 20 inches tall and about 15 inches wide with long carry straps that would allow to go over the shoulder. Used some scraps of batting and muslin to line it with for strength and added a few pockets for things like pencils (for pattern marking) and scissors and extra needles.  No pattern used just sat at the table and played with the fabric and it came out great. Scroll frame fits in well with loads of room for a small tackle box (to hold floss bobbins and scissors and extra needles) as well as a clip board with the pattern which allows me to lean it up against something to see the pattern while I stitch. Roseanne Brown Please do not add my name to any mail list unless I ask for it. —  * QMPro 1.51 * Work is for people who don’t know how to stitch.

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This sounds *wonderful*!!  Where, oh where, did you find such a treasure?!!! C’mon, share!!! Sherri

: Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I : found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today! : A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the : plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on : top–and two long handles. : I always did think it was a shame to hide all those pretty yarns and : threads along with the canvas stretched on scroll bars that I happen to : be working on! : Now I can be a show off for the summer months when I head off on my : travels again. No problem with moisture–the bag is an open tote and : kept out of the sun. : — : Lula from Wooly Dreams Design : http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/

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Hi Sherri– I posted a follow up post to Tara S on where I found my see through vinyl needlework tote bag. However, I see you are in PA so where I bought mine won’t be applicable to you. Some the best places to find different and useful odds and ends are those boutique stores one finds in many malls—-places like Claire’s Accessories. Very often you’ll find inexpensive neat little plastic cases and zippered bags that can be used for holding needlework accessories. Or go look in beach wear or accessory departments to find more see through bags in different materials. Like the almost transparent nylon mesh used for nice looking tote style bags too. I bought a black zippered tote bag of nylon mesh that I carry and show off my bigger pieces of working needlepoint—and that only cost $7. on sale! — Lula from Wooly Dreams Design http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This sounds *wonderful*!!  Where, oh where, did you find such a treasure?!!! C’mon, share!!! Sherri : Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I : found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today! : A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the : plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on : top–and two long handles.

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For people in Canada,  Mountain Equipment Co-op (a wilderness outfitters type shop) sells bags like this.  They are see through. Since they are constructed for heavy duty work, they may be a little much for some.  If I remember correctly, they come in various sizes. Cheers, Nancy Lorraine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since I have no shame in showing off my needlepoint wherever I go, I found the ultimate show-off the needlework carrying bag today! A clear plastic see through tote bag of heavy gauge vinyl (not like the plastic handled–thin clear plastic carrying bags) with a tab lock on top–and two long handles. I always did think it was a shame to hide all those pretty yarns and threads along with the canvas stretched on scroll bars that I happen to be working on! Now I can be a show off for the summer months when I head off on my travels again. No problem with moisture–the bag is an open tote and kept out of the sun. — Lula from Wooly Dreams Design http://home.earthlink.net/~woolydream/

Response:

I know similar advice has been posted before, but friends, check out the fishing section of your local sporting goods store. There are all sorts of nifty little (and big) carrying cases with compartments just right for our stitching stuff. Yesterday I was looking for some fishing line to use for basting gridlines on my linen (helps count, doesn’t get caught in the stitches) and came home with a soft-sided zippered case designed for fishing supplies. It has heavyweight zip-lock style bags with sturdy adhesive tabs with holes to go on the two rings attached to the bag. The outside of the case is water repellent and has a handle. It’s perfect for carting around all of those odd fibers for my current needlepoint project. I’ll post the name brand, etc. of the one I bought if anyone is interested, but just go and see what they have in your area. June

Response:

I know similar advice has been posted before, but friends, check out the fishing section of your local sporting goods store. There are all sorts of nifty little (and big) carrying cases with compartments just right for our stitching stuff. Yesterday I was looking for some fishing line to use for basting gridlines on my linen (helps count, doesn’t get caught in the stitches) and came home with a soft-sided zippered case designed for fishing supplies. It has heavyweight zip-lock style bags with sturdy adhesive tabs with holes to go on the two rings attached to the bag. The outside of the case is water repellent and has a handle. It’s perfect for carting around all of those odd fibers for my current needlepoint project. I’ll post the name brand, etc. of the one I bought if anyone is interested, but just go and see what they have in your area.

I’m interested — please post the info! Chris

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Question:

Join us for dinner at a new soul-food restaurant, after we surf the rapids on inner tubes in the Catskill Mountains on Saturday, Sept 14      Our 26th adventure will be appreciated by the thrill seekers everywhere.  Several times a year, a dam is opened in the Catskill Mountains.  This results in a tidal wave surging down the Esopus Creek.  Whitewater enthusiasts seize upon this moment to shoot these rapids on truck inner tubes.  If you seek an adrenalin rush, read on.      Our car pool will take us on a 2.6 hour trip to Phoenicia, New York, a village of 970 in the Catskill Mountains.  It is west of Woodstock, New York and south of Hunter Mountain (elevation, 4,025 feet).  The Phoenicia Business Association claims that they are the "northeast’s tubing capital".  In fact, they are blessed with no less than three (count ‘em) tube rental companies.  Phoenicia also boasts of "world class" fly fishing, although fishing for flies never appealed to us.        After we arrive in Phoenicia, we will board a shuttle van operated by the Rubber Ducky Tube Rental Company (no, we are not making the name up).  It will take us to the headwaters of the Esopus Creek.  Those fluent in the Mohawk Indian dialect will know "Esopus" means fast water.  Those not fluent but not legally blind will realize this anyhow.  The Esopus feeds the Ashokan Reservoir, which is a source of New York City drinking water.  So it’s clean.      Rubber Ducky will provide us with helmets, foot protectors (old sneakers, really) and thickly padded life jackets.  After being suitably atTired for tubing (no pun intended), we will assume a reclining diaper position in a modified truck tire inner tubes. They will have rope handles (hold on tight!) and a seat.      The seat is just a wood board, but it protects your buns against unsightly bruises, thereby saving you from embarrassing questions from your significant other.  But you can expect minor bruises and scrapes on other body parts.  You may want to bring knee pads.        Your next 100 minutes on the Esopus Creek will give you a deeper appreciation of what it would be like to be a pair of underpants during the spin cycle.  With of course, a scenic view of the Catskill Mountains.  Among the sights you can see is the twisted wreck of a steel railroad trestle, which was nearly washed away by the raging waters of the Esopus.      Lest we scare you away from doing this trip, we feel duty bound to advise you that we tubed the Esopus on our 14th outing on June 22nd, with no loss of life or ill effects.  Indeed, everyone wanted to do it again.  Admittedly, we did not go when there was a dam opening.  However, Rubber Ducky tells us that tubing is a lot smoother when there is a dam opening.  This is because the water level is higher, so there are less rocks to bump into, and hence, there is less chance you will be spilled into the water.  The water, however, is faster, making for a quicker, and more fun ride.      Our deal with Rubber Ducky includes unlimited rides upstream on their shuttle to the casting-off point.  So you can do the ride down the Esopus over and over again, for just $13, everything included.  We will stay until our third and last run is completed between 6:00 pm and 6:30 pm.        Lunch:  After our first run, we will eat lunch together.  The Phoenicia Business Association says the village has "great" restaurants.  We found one nice outdoor cafe which served decent brick oven pizza.        Dinner:  We will have dinner at about 9 pm at Mr. Tony’s Soul Kitchen, 337 East 9th Street.  It was reviewed in the New York Times by Eric Asimov on September 6, 1996 (excerpted below):      New York Times best dishes recommendations:  Salmon cakes, green salad, sweet potato pancakes, soups, chicken fried steak, sauteed trout, grilled tuna, fried chicken breast, watermelon sorbet, flourless chocolate cake, fruit cobblers.      "And word is slowly getting around about the food, which inspired by Southern traditions but is completely contemporary American cooking.  Dinners start with a basket of corn bread, neither dry nor greasy, sometimes blended with cheddar cheese, other times with jalapeno.  The menu is small but has some significant standouts, like fresh salmon cakes ($7.95) with crisp, wonderfully delicate skins, served with a dill remoulade and a nice little green salad.  A bigger green salad ($5.75) is terrific, topped with walnuts and little buttons of goat cheese.  Crisp sweet-potato pancakes ($5.25) look big and awkward, but they are delicious, served with a chunky, spicy apple sauce.      Me. Tony’s "painstaking prepared soup du jour" ($5) earns its name.  One day it’s a corn-and-leek chowder with a lingering smoky taste.  Another day it’s a peppery cream of broccoli soup with a lasting, multidimensional flavor.  Main courses all come with creamy mashed potatoes and a vegetable.  I ordered chicken fried steak ($11.95), imagining truck-stop fare best washed down with high-octane coffee; I was astonished to find a real steak in a delicate breading with a dainty cream gravy and glazed carrots.  A special of grilled tuna steak au poivre ($13.95) came rare and very peppery in a sweet blend of port wine and soy sauce.  Fried chicken breast ($8.95) in an excellent, smoky barbecue sauces is much better than the pallid, unremarkable roasted chicken ($9.95) and the surprisingly dry broiled pork chop ($10.95).      …Mr. Gaskin is volubly proud of his desserts ($4 each).  I’m sure his father would be proud, too.  I’m sure his father would be proud, too, with dishes like refreshing watermelon sorbet, rich flourless chocolate cake topped with chocolate sauce, and wonderful fruit cobblers served in little ramekins."      Departure:  From 86th Street and Broadway, northwest corner, in front of the Gap, near the exits for the 1 and 9 local trains, on Saturday, September 14th (rain date, 9/15).  We LEAVE at 9:03 a.m. SHARP.  No kidding.      Directions:  Take the New York State Thruway to Exit 19 at Kingston.  Follow Route 28 west for 25 miles.  See sign on right welcoming you to Phoenicia.  Go down ramp, over the bridge, and make left to Rubber Ducky (914-688-2018).      Reservations:  You can make life as easier for us by confirming your reservation ASAP.  Please tell us if you joining us for dinner AND whether you can make it Sunday if the weather is bad -NYC Young Adult Activity Group-

Response:

    Our 26th adventure will be appreciated by the thrill seekers everywhere.  Several times a year, a dam is opened in the Catskill Mountains.  This results in a tidal wave surging down the Esopus Creek.  Whitewater enthusiasts seize upon this moment to shoot these rapids on truck inner tubes.  If you seek an adrenalin rush, read on.

"Whitewater enthusiasts" paddle down these rapids in appropriate watercraft, with appropriate equipment, including PFD’s, helmets, sufficient clothing to withstand rather cold water, and, most importantly, with appropriate knowledge of class III whitewater. Tubing the Esopus is, at best, a dubious idea, suitable not for "thrillseekers" but for those with a careless attitude toward their health.  If you must engage in tubing, please do it on a river like the Delaware, where the consequences are likely to be much less severe. —Rsk

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: Join us for dinner at a : new soul-food restaurant, : after we surf the rapids on : inner tubes in the Catskill : Mountains on Saturday, Sept 14 Hey everyone, The trip has been moved to Sunday, Sept 15. You can check out the site for the any late updates (http://www.cnct.com/home/kris/) -Charlie-NYCYAAG-

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Question:

Vinsel) writes: This brings up the question for the cane rod builders: what was the impregnating that was popular on many rods in the seventies – Orvis, Leonard, Powell…  Was that a pressurized epoxy system?  Why do so few makers do this today?  I would expect that it takes large and expensive equipment and would also stiffen the action of the rod. Anyone with more info?

The impregnation system that Orvis used and still uses is a phenolic resin.  Originally it was bakelite, in fact some of the rods from 1946 said "Bakelite Impregnated".  It’s changed a little since then, but not much.   Wes Jordan was the first rod maker to successfully apply impregnation to bamboo rods in 1946.  It drove him nuts during World War II that Orvis could make impregnated bamboo ski poles for the ski troops for the war effort that were impervious to heat and moisture and yet could not produce a bamboo rod with predictable action with the same process.  He finally figured out that by flaming the rod to remove most of the moisture content, building the rod completely and by cooking it at precisely controlled temperatures in the phenolic resin for a couple of days he could impregnate the rod with the resin and achieve predictable results. Then, to demonstrate that the impregnated rod was impervious to weather and for advertisement purposes, he would freeze a rod in a 50 lb. block of ice and then pour boiling water over the ice until the it melted away from the rod.  In 1946 there were no varnishes that could withstand this treatment. If the impregnation process was improperly done it could make the rod heavy and "loggy".  Properly done, the impregnation goes into the cane a few thousandths of an inch and replaces the residual moisuture usually found in the power fibers.The heat curing process (originally flamed, now done with a heat box) makes the rod stiffer and allows it to be impregnated with the resin.  Without the heat curing process, there is too much moisture in the bamboo to impregnate the rod successfully. Impregnating the rod is an extra step and although it eliminates the varnishing process, it is more time consuming than varnishing and  If you don’t control the heat of the phenolic resin precisely, you ruin the rod. Action of the rod is more dependant on the design of the rod not the impregnation of it.  If you pick up an Orvis "Wes Jordan era" rod it will be almost mahogany in color from the flaming and faster in action than the rods currently produced.  This is due in large part to the preference of the rod designer Wes Jordan.  Howard Steare, who worked with Wes and took over rod production after Wes Jordan retired, preferred a higher moisture content in the bamboo which resulted in a slower action.  Howard retired a couple of years ago and for the first time in many years Orvis is producing 3 new bamboo rods for 1997 with reportedly crisper and quicker actions.  I’ll be curious to get them in my hands. You can find some more info on this at the Orvis web site (www.orvis.com) under the "timeline" part of the Orvis story section.  You can jump right to it at the following url "http://www.alloutdoors.com/orvis/Story/Impregbamb.html"  There is also a book out about Wes Jordan from Centennial Press that has a lot more info.                                         Hope this helps,                                                Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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[stuff deleted] This brings up the question for the cane rod builders: what was the impregnating that was popular on many rods in the seventies – Orvis, Leonard, Powell…  Was that a pressurized epoxy system?  Why do so few makers do this today? Impregnating the rod is a way a few manufacturers finish their rods, but in general, impregnation slows down the action of a rod. The air spaces get filled with epoxy, adding to the weight, thus slowing down the action. There is a saying that Orvis makes their rods to last, not to cast.

Well, almost.  I worked for Leonard in the late 70s.  The Duracane impregnated rod blanks were made for Leonard to their specs in England. The stuff used was bakelite, if I remember correctly.  I’m pretty sure it wasn’t epoxy.  As for weight, the impregnated rods were pretty close to the weight of the varnished rods, they just didn’t have as complex tapers, as thin tips, or as fancy reelseats, although they did have silk wraps, very nice wood reelseats, and the same nickel- silver ferrules.  I always sort of wished I had bought a Duracane 7′ 4 wt. since they cast beautifully.  In fact, the entire Duracane line was very, very nice. As for impregnation, it only soaks in a few thousands of an inch, hardly enough to affect the action in any really meaningful way. As for Orvis, if you don’t like the way their rods cast, it’s because of the design, not because of the impregnating.  Orvis rods have very slow tapers.  This is because that’s how they want them.  It would take a little more work to make a rod with a very thin tip, but in general, Orvis cane rods have slow actions because that’s how they were designed. Barry Smith

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I don’t think epoxy varnish is correct. I am not familiar with epoxy varnish but in general epoxies are two-part systems that you mix, and when they solidify they are very difficult to remove. Most epoxies are clouded and weakened by UV light so I don’t think this is right for an overall coating, unless you were going to varnish over the epoxy (getting pretty thick by now…)

You are right, most epoxies are unsuitable for coating, although as coating for guide wraps they work fine. I think you want a marine-grade spar varnish, which would be phenolic or polyurethane based, with a UV inhibitor.  That way you can remove it with alcohol and steel wool to restore every twenty years or so.

There are several ways to finish a cane rod. Tung oil, spar varnish, or polyurethane varnish can be used. Polyurethane is probably the most resistant to water, solvents, weather, etc., but the hardest to refinish if it ever becomes neccesary to do so. About the only way to remove polyurethane is to sand it off. This brings up the question for the cane rod builders: what was the impregnating that was popular on many rods in the seventies – Orvis, Leonard, Powell…  Was that a pressurized epoxy system?  Why do so few makers do this today?  I would expect that it takes large and expensive equipment and would also stiffen the action of the rod. Anyone with more info?

Impregnating the rod is a way a few manufacturers finish their rods, but in general, impregnation slows down the action of a rod. The air spaces get filled with epoxy, adding to the weight, thus slowing down the action. There is a saying that Orvis makes their rods to last, not to cast. Darryl Hayashida

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… you can improve the stick’s water resistance by a couple of thin coats of epoxy varnish…

I don’t think epoxy varnish is correct. I am not familiar with epoxy varnish but in general epoxies are two-part systems that you mix, and when they solidify they are very difficult to remove. Most epoxies are clouded and weakened by UV light so I don’t think this is right for an overall coating, unless you were going to varnish over the epoxy (getting pretty thick by now…) I think you want a marine-grade spar varnish, which would be phenolic or polyurethane based, with a UV inhibitor.  That way you can remove it with alcohol and steel wool to restore every twenty years or so. This brings up the question for the cane rod builders: what was the impregnating that was popular on many rods in the seventies – Orvis, Leonard, Powell…  Was that a pressurized epoxy system?  Why do so few makers do this today?  I would expect that it takes large and expensive equipment and would also stiffen the action of the rod. Anyone with more info? Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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I found an old cane rod that hasn’t much care recently.  One wrap is starting to loosen.  What solution does one use on the wraps to hold them and what does one put on the cane to waterproof it? Thanks

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I found an old cane rod that hasn’t much care recently.  One wrap is starting to loosen.  What solution does one use on the wraps to hold them and what does one put on the cane to waterproof it?

Don’t put adhesives on loose wrap.  Carefully cut the old whipping off and redo it afresh.  (If one has already loosened, another is going to soon, and every handy angler needs to know how to make a neat whipping.  It’s not difficult.) If you know this is a good stick, you might as well refinish it throughout, whipping on new (rustproof) guides correctly spaced and sized.  If you remove everything except ferrules and handle, you can improve the stick’s water resistance by a couple of thin coats of epoxy varnish, before you reattach guides (at least 2 weeks later, to be sure the varnish is totally dry.) — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

Will be in West Yellowstone mid July for about 5 days.  Want to fish a couple of days in the Park.  Any suggestions for areas to hike in 2-3 miles to escape the crowds?  Fly selection?  Current conditions? Thanks.  J. Rice

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Will be in West Yellowstone mid July for about 5 days.  Want to fish a couple of days in the Park.  Any suggestions for areas to hike in 2-3 miles to escape the crowds?  Fly selection?  Current conditions? Thanks.  J. Rice

Hi J.Rice A quick call to Bob Jacklin’s Fly Shop will get you up-to-the second information (406-646-7336).  The water conditions are changing so rapidly you need very current conditions.  A storm in the park can change everything overnight. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Question:

I guess little things in life please me; last weekend while tying some flies with a friend, his father showed us the trick of how to tie the head of a Muddler Minnow. I had always marvelled at these seemingly intricate flies and wondered "How in the world do you tie this?".

Pete,      Cool, huh?  As Scott indicates in response to this same posting, spinning deerhair is a basic technique that’s been around a long time. You can also spin other materials such as wool (woolhead sculpins) tow yarn (glow bugs) or any hollow animal hair.      Back in high school I reluctantly began tying commercially for local fly shops and a large mailorder firm.  I tried to stick mostly to custom tying because it didn’t get as boring (I would tie dozens of a pattern and color rather than grosses) and I made better money. Excellent spending (fishing) money for a teen by the way.  Anyway, I tied tons of muddlers.  Popular fly.  To form the head on a muddler you shouldn’t need to spin more than one clump of hair.  First, always use a heavier than normal thread when spinning hair.  Cut a suitable sized clump and stack the tips (even the hair tips).  These tips will form your muddler’s collar.  Make two loose wraps of thread around the hair and hook with the tips of the hair positioned to form the collar (usually about half way down the hook shank).  Begin to tighten your thread to flare the hair and wrap through the flared deerhair. Tie off and trim the flared butt ends and some of the tip ends of the deerhair.  The muddler should take less than 5 minutes to tie plus it’s a great fly.  I think you’ll find this method for muddler heads quicker, easier, and neater.  Have fun tying! John

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I guess little things in life please me; last weekend while tying some flies with a friend, his father showed us the trick of how to tie the head of a Muddler Minnow. I had always marvelled at these seemingly intricate flies and wondered "How in the world do you tie this?". The trick is that you take deer hair and wrap it to the hook near the head, splitting the length of the hair in 2.  As you let go of the deer hair, it fans out in a perpendicular fashion to the hook.  After wrapping several bunches of deer hair to the hook, the previous bunches get pushed backwards.  Then you just trim away the bulk of the dear head and sculpt the head of the muddler minnow. Its quite simple !  What a revelation!  I tied my 1st muddler and it looked AWESOME.                                                         pete                                                                            |_    

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Its quite simple !  What a revelation!  I tied my 1st muddler and it looked AWESOME.

The "trick" you describe is pretty much standard practice (its called hair spinning and is described in many fly tying books).. You did say in your original message that you were just trimming the hair to shape the head..  After you trim, you can use a match (or lighter if youre careful) to further refine the head’s shape.. Scott —             |                UUCP: ..!uunet!plains!wilken       |               | WWW page -= http://www.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~wilken |

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