Question:

ROFF became a sort of sociology experiment for me.

I commend you. What a refreshing and clever idea! Please let us know what hypotheses you were attempting to theorize. Here are a few of my own hypotheses that your little experiment appears to confirm: (1) If you come across as a loser on USENET, people will naturally assume you are that way in real life. Why wouldn’t they? (2) Occam’s Razor applies to USENET. In other words, if the simplest explanation for your behavior is that you are a dishonest a–hole, then that’s how you’ll be perceived despite whatever more complicated explanation you might provide. If clear evidence points to a case of assumed identity, people are going to see it as such regardless of protracted denials. (3) Deception, dishonesty, and remorselessness are far less tolerated on USENET than are poor taste, ill humor, poor grammar, off-topic posting, or lack of knowledge about the subject. Again, I congratulate you on your experiment and I await the report of your findings. It’s quite refreshing to have been the unknowing pawn in not one, but *two* sociology experiments over the last few days. It’s good to know that my time spent on ROFF is not simply leisurely idleness. Unfortunately, statistically speaking, your attempts to "get the group riled up" have gone in vain because out of the hundreds of regular readers of this group, only a very few have even bothered to respond to you–and of those, I can’t think of any right now how have appeared at all to be "riled up" at you. For example, if the use of the F word is any indication of riled-upness (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t) then it would appear that–at least in the threads in which you have participated–you are by far the most riled. Does self-riling pleasure you? –Steve

Response:

I do regret that. My apology was an attempt to salvage that. But, what is done is done, and, boy, is this ever done…

Now you’ve got me confused–don’t worry too much, it happens. You just said that your participation on ROFF was a little sociology experiment (great idea, BTW) and that you couldn’t understand why anyone thought you cared what they said. I’m paraphrasing here, so please correct me if I’m mistaken. But it now appears that you regret your behavior. Why? Or are you still experimenting–you clever dog! Man, you’re gonna get us so confused and riled up that we just won’t know what to expect next. This is a wild ride for a naive Western boy like me, but I sure am excited at the prospects of helping you gather your data. –Steve

Response:

Ahhh, the grudge maven… When was the last time, to the nearest month, that I tried to sell something, feebly or otherwise.

Well, you’ve been feebly trying to sell us that story about how you didn’t post to ROFF on behalf of someone named Lindsey ever since it happened. But that shouldn’t be counted against you as salesmanship because nobody’s buying it. –Steve

Response:

Ahhh, the grudge maven… When was the last time, to the nearest month, that I tried to sell something, feebly or otherwise.

Part of your sociology experiment?  Nice try.  But your message brought more than a couple chuckles, I’m sure.  You can try to salve your pride any number of clever ways.  The fact is, for most of us, this is a means of social interaction, whereby we’ve made many real life friends.  All it requires is a modicum of sincerity and integrity, desire to fly fish, and making the effort to travel.  Even those who haven’t traveled have at least the sincerity and integrity part down.  I can (and have) made transactions with a number of people here that I haven’t met.  Buying a rod from you would be laughable. You wanna try and convince us that other than how you behave around here, in real life you’ve got a… well… real life?  What kind of malcontent loser would defend himself like that?  You think you’re toying with us?  Believe whatever you need to.  In the mean time, I’ll be enjoying camaraderie and friendship with these folks, even if I don’t see them for long periods at a time.  Unplug your skull from your anus and you’d realize it’s worth it. It’s too bad you keep buzzing around like a deer fly, but that’s life in the great outdoors.

Response:

Now, tell me who doesn’t ‘get it’…

You don

Question:

No, you all can bring those teeny little eastern ethics into any bar you like over here, but the girls are likely to laugh at them.  :) mind…..um……them ain’t girls! Wolfgang see, ya gotta kinda hold em upsi……well, never mind

Ah, so you *have* been in a bar out here.  Hard to believe, I know, but those *were* the girls that held you upside down. JR

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, you all can bring those teeny little eastern ethics into any bar you like over here, but the girls are likely to laugh at them.  :) mind…..um……them ain’t girls! Wolfgang see, ya gotta kinda hold em upsi……well, never mind Ah, so you *have* been in a bar out here.  Hard to believe, I know, but those *were* the girls that held you upside down.

Oh, I’ve been in quite a few bars out there.  Never been held upside down.  And no, those ain’t girls…..some day we’ll explain the bother. Wolfgang wouldn’t be ethical

Response:

…… cuz then he could never never no no uh uh uh venture into a bar west of omaha on accounta then he’d get beat up by a couple dozen cowboys with REALLY BIG ethics…….yup, uh huh.      :)

No, you all can bring those teeny little eastern ethics into any bar you like over here, but the girls are likely to laugh at them.  :) JR

Response:

…… cuz then he could never never no no uh uh uh venture into a bar west of omaha on accounta then he’d get beat up by a couple dozen cowboys with REALLY BIG ethics…….yup, uh huh.      :) No, you all can bring those teeny little eastern ethics into any bar you like over here, but the girls are likely to laugh at them.  :)

mind…..um……them ain’t girls! Wolfgang see, ya gotta kinda hold em upsi……well, never mind

Response:

yellow foam spider was the ticket. After about six months of fishing almost exclusively with nymphs I had forgotten how fun it is to see a fish rise from the depths to take a fly on the surface.

I am glad you had some fun with the panfish flies. Since I am auch a slut about catching bluegill from the surface, I most often start with the yellow foam spider. I seldom am able to catch catfish with a fly, but they are a hell of a lot of fun when they do take the fly. I use head cement on the ghost minnow and I think the smell of it puts the catfish off. Richard Hart who came up with the pattern gives it a spray with Cortland’s Mayfly Scent when he fishes these flies for catfish or carp. As far as I am concerned the flies accomplished their purpose…I could almost see the smile on your face from here. That is what bluegill are all about. Big Dale

Response:

As far as I am concerned the flies accomplished their purpose…I could almost see the smile on your face from here.

So far I have caught brown trout, smallmouth and bream on your flies (that I won at the raffle(s)). No catfish yet, but plenty of smiles for me too. — Charlie…

Response:

The bluegill are just finishing the spawn season at the pond and the aggressive males linger in groups at the edges of the beds waiting for something to happen. Loitering like teenagers at the mall, I guess.

Hokey smokes they’re early down there!  Bluegills won’t be spawning here for another month or so.  I am SO jealous!! Wolfgang assuming that the gills were actually QUITE finished spawning cuz on accounta he would hate to think that steve would fish em on the redds cuz then he could never never no no uh uh uh venture into a bar west of omaha on accounta then he’d get beat up by a couple dozen cowboys with REALLY BIG ethics…….yup, uh huh.      :)

Response:

[deleted] Good points. I actually did try a couple of casts with the smaller fly first, but had no luck so decided to get serious and pull out something I thought would have a chance.

…like stink bait or a 3/0 snagging hook… — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Good points. I actually did try a couple of casts with the smaller fly first, but had no luck so decided to get serious and pull out something I thought would have a chance.

Seems to me like catfish or bullhead on a fly would be pretty darn tough fishin’.  The most artificial thing I ever caught one on was a plastic worm. But I’m no catfish commonsewer.

Response:

Just a thought…I think it would have been better if you left the smaller fly on. A small fly won’t "spook" him and if it’s right near his nose he might just suck it in to see if it is food. If you were lazin’ around and not actively eating, a big mac might not seem interesting, but if someone passes a candy dish you’ll probably grab a couple…

Good points. I actually did try a couple of casts with the smaller fly first, but had no luck so decided to get serious and pull out something I thought would have a chance. –Steve

Response:

About two weeks ago or so, Big Dale sent me a box of his hand-tied bass and panfish flies. I thanked him when they arrived, but I had a lingering feeling that I wouldn’t be doing him or his flies justice until I fished with them. The weather and my schedule finally cooperated yesterday afternoon and I finally made it over to my neighborhood pond for a couple of hours. There was quite a bit of wind and I had inadvertently left the reel I was planning to use at home meaning I had nothing but a 4wt line to go with the 5wt rod I brought. Casting was tough but what the heck I was fishing. I tried a couple different fly patterns from Dale’s Box, starting with a Mylar Minnow, changing to a Cap Spider, and finally settling on a yellow foam spider when I didn’t seem to be catching anything beneath the surface. Despite the wind (or perhaps *because of* the wind), the yellow foam spider was the ticket. After about six months of fishing almost exclusively with nymphs I had forgotten how fun it is to see a fish rise from the depths to take a fly on the surface. The bluegill are just finishing the spawn season at the pond and the aggressive males linger in groups at the edges of the beds waiting for something to happen. Loitering like teenagers at the mall, I guess. I caught quite a few fish as I made my way around the pond. After a while I added a LaFontaine’ Twist nymph as a dropper, which seemed to decidedly increase the interest of the bass. All was going well despite the wind and the contorted casting until I happened upon a VERY large catfish sunning himself at the edge of the water. (OK, I don’t know for a fact that it was trying to get sun but it was just lying there in six inches of water with no apparent interest in eating). My heart started pounding, my mouth went dry and I was consumed by a case of MFS (monster fish syndrome). Suddenly, my only intention was to find a way to catch that monster catfish. Hands shaking, I clipped off the dropper and tried to find something in Big Dale’s box that would catch a catfish. I chose a gray and white Ghost Minnow, placed it perfectly on the first cast and slowly stripped the fly past the bigcat’s nose. The catfish slowly turned, ignored the fly, and swam into the depths of the pond. I spent the next fifteen minutes in a pathetic attempt to convince that catfish to comeback and show some interest in me. I should have known better. I knew I wasn’t going to interest that catfish. And I knew that once I started trying to catch it I was going to end up empty-handed and that the leisurely enjoyment of catching half-pound bluegill and bass would be gone. Though perhaps not as profound as the story of Ahab and Moby Dick, there’s a life lesson in there somewhere. Telling me to enjoy the things I have in life, to be happy with my lot and to leave the never-to-be-caught catfish well enough alone. –Steve

Response:

Question:

I usually go for the "bottle of beer" fly, and hope and pray the water clears up … cheers, edwin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – which fly would you recommend straight after a heavy downpour of rain with the river still running brown for salmon in Scotland

Response:

Oh I would not hesitate to use steelhead flies for Atlantic salmon fishing, that was not what I meant.  I meant using things like Griffiths Gnats, beetles or ants or similar things, is a complete waste of time for Atlantic salmon on spawning runs, which is the only time they are fished for in Scotland.  Fishing for immature fish, ( parr etc ), which would take "naturals",  is not done at all. Worms are invariably more successful in any case.  A large bunch of lobworms on a large hook will generally take far more salmon than any fly, especially under flood conditions, when the river is high and brown, and even when low and clear for that matter.  In many places worming is allowed under certain ( usually flood ) conditions. Fly-fishing is not always the most successful method for any given fish, or set of conditions, in fact, barring salmonids generally, it rarely is. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

I will be in Mitchell SD for opening day of phesant season next week. Does anyone know of any good areas near Mitchell that I could do a little fishing?

Response:

4 hours drive to the black hills.  Some trout in the missouri river below the dam (damn?) near Pierre (2 hour drive).  Bass in Lake Mitchell. steve haun sioux falls, sd

I will be in Mitchell SD for opening day of phesant season next week. Does anyone know of any good areas near Mitchell that I could do a little

fishing?

Response:

Just outside of Rapid City are two lovely streams that hold good fish and have excellent hatches.  Spring Creek and Rapid Creek. They are really worth fishing.

Response:

Question:

2 months?  Lucky bastard. Don’t go anywhere near Cherokee, especially this time of year (unless you enjoy being  overwhelmed with tourist-trap garbage). Trout are going to be iffy through the summer, but if you keep trying, you will catch some.  Get advice at the nearest bait seller as to how and where.  You’d be suprized at the size of the trout that are pulled from the slimmest streams. Got a boat?  Fontana offers trout, smallmouth, musky, etc.   Catch or not, relax and enjoy yourself.  You’ll be staying in one of the most spectacular regions in the country.  Avoid the crowds, find a trail up a remote mountainside, and breathe.

Response:

What types of successful fishing is available on this river?  Are small mouth apt to be caught any time?  Are trout happening here?  I will be in the area where the river empties into Lake Fontana for about 2 months.  Thanks for the advice. Before you buy.

Response:

I believe it is regularly stocked with rainbow trout.  Also, just north of there, on the Cherokee Indian Reservation, the Tribe regularly stocks their streams with trout.  You can pay them a fee and probably catch your limit of brownies and rainbows.  Take a fly rod if you have one. What types of successful fishing is available on this river?  Are small mouth apt to be caught any time?  Are trout happening here?  I will be in the area where the river empties into Lake Fontana for about 2 months.  Thanks for the advice. Before you buy.

– To e-mail me, remove the "d"

Response:

Question:

You’re right. Let’s not spend the money that might help rebuild their economy and let’s stay away out of respect for the dead. Jeez. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you guys for real? You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. — Colin Brown Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was

Response:

says… Are you guys for real? You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. — Colin Brown

Colin, My initial reaction was similar to yours. After further contemplation, I decided that anyone who goes down there to fish is also going to be spending hard currency in an area that could use some right now. That is why I urge those fishermen (and anyone who can) to contact your local charitable organizations and send money/food/clothing now. They *really* do need it. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

I was there last July fishing at Turneffe flats. We were trying for the Grand Slam. I highly recommend the lodge. I will be seeing the owner of the lodge in two weeks. I. like yourself am concerned about the damage and to the well being of the local guides I fished with and their familys. When I find out I’ll let you know.                                                                 Mark Heskett

Response:

You’re right. Let’s not spend the money that might help rebuild their economy and let’s stay away out of respect for the dead. Jeez.

______ It is just a matter of time that American’s, in our own way, will begin turning tragedy into humor.  Out of chaos, we alway cheer the world up or ourselves because the pain is so great, the suffering inexpressiable, and so it goes.  But today, I called the Red Cross and made a donation to Mexico’s cause.  Its the least we can do for now. I think. THIS would be a good time for the Pope to make a visit just to help Mexico who needs him so, now.  The arms of the Catholic Church should enfold this nation and give comfort and spiritual support. Well . . . it sure would be nice to hear from them about now.

Response:

_____ If the Pope will supply 100,000 loaves of bread I will supply the bone fish for him to feed his flock.

Response:

In ______ It is just a matter of time that American’s, in our own way, will begin turning tragedy into humor.  Out of chaos, we alway cheer the world up or ourselves because the pain is so great, the suffering inexpressiable, and so it goes.  But today, I called the Red Cross and made a donation to Mexico’s cause.  Its the least we can do for now. I think. THIS would be a good time for the Pope to make a visit just to help Mexico who needs him so, now.  The arms of the Catholic Church should enfold this nation and give comfort and spiritual support. Well . . . it sure would be nice to hear from them about now.

bzzzzzttt, bzzzzzztttt, scrsssshhhhhhhh Earth to George… HONDURAS, NICARAGUA, & BELIZE. (and some southeastern parts of Mexico) aside from my sarcasm, many thanks for your contribution. They are in need of assistance. The death toll has climbed to over 10,000 with many thousands still unaccounted for. A MAJOR DISASTER. another aside, i know we have our differing opinions, but if you’re ever up here in god’s country, there is an open invite to you to join me and possibly wayno on a stream a’fishin’ for the brookies. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Hi: Looking to fish Belize next May, but I’m concerned about the damage that Mitch may have done.  I’ve been searching the net for information to guide my trip decision, but haven’t come up with anything. I normally go to Belize River Lodge, but I have the feeling that they may have been washed away (they are right on the river).  I was also considering Blue Horizon.  Anyone have any idea how things fared at these two places and if Mitch’s rath may have screwed up the waters into next year? Thanks. Adam

Hi Adam, I think they were pretty lucky in Belize. I am not really sure about total damage, but heard that El Pescador did OK. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

_____ If the Pope will supply 100,000 loaves of bread I will supply the bone fish for him to feed his flock.

Response:

Hi.  I don’t know about the condition of the specific lodges you mentioned, but Belize in general suffered little damage from Mitch (when compared to what’s happening in Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua). The fishing is great right now, especially in southern Belize.  Lots of snook, especially.  You may be able to get info on your lodges from the ambergriscaye hurricane page.  I can’t remember the URL, but if you go to our Website (http://www.kevinmodera.com) and click on "Ambergris Caye" info at the top of the homepage, you’ll be linked to their hurricane site.  They have lots of information from many locations in Belize.  Our site also includes information on conditions in southern Belize. Generally, we expect the Placencia area to be pretty much back to "normal" (whatever that means for Placencia), in another week or so. BTW, please, anybody that has the time, money or inclination, Central America needs help desperately.  A group of our local guides donated their time and money to buy and deliver food to Honduras a couple of days ago. They just got back last night and could not believe how horrible it really is in northern Honduras.  It’s still so wet that they were unable to light fires to cook the beans and rice for people, no one has anywhere to go, no one has any food.  It’s apparently worse even than it looks on television. — Mary Mary V. Toy                           Kevin Modera Guide Services Professional Guides for Tropical Anglers Placencia, Belize Voice and Fax:  (314) 776-3496 URL:  http://www.kevinmodera.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi: Looking to fish Belize next May, but I’m concerned about the damage that Mitch may have done.  I’ve been searching the net for information to guide my trip decision, but haven’t come up with anything. I normally go to Belize River Lodge, but I have the feeling that they may have been washed away (they are right on the river).  I was also considering Blue Horizon.  Anyone have any idea how things fared at these two places and if Mitch’s rath may have screwed up the waters into next year? Thanks. Adam Hi Adam, I think they were pretty lucky in Belize. I am not really sure about total damage, but heard that El Pescador did OK. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Hi: Looking to fish Belize next May, but I’m concerned about the damage that Mitch may have done.  I’ve been searching the net for information to guide my trip decision, but haven’t come up with anything. I normally go to Belize River Lodge, but I have the feeling that they may have been washed away (they are right on the river).  I was also considering Blue Horizon.  Anyone have any idea how things fared at these two places and if Mitch’s rath may have screwed up the waters into next year? Thanks. Adam

Response:

Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was

Response:

Are you guys for real? You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. — Colin Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was

Response:

you moron they’re just asking about damn fishing trips here. take your patsyism elsewhere — Nicholas J. Slodki

:Are you guys for real? : :You’re talking about a hurricane that has killed thousands, and you’re :worried it may have messed up your proposed fishing trips. : : :– :Colin Brown : : : : Also interested in response … would like to go there next year … was : : : :

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never done it before, but I have decided to try for freshwater prawns. These live in the streams on the Big Island of Hawaii. Maybe someone could share some pointers on fishing techniques. I’ve heard of people using crab nets.  They seem too fast for wading in with scooping nets.  Are there traps that one can build? -thanx -dan Are you talking about crawfish? or commonly called crawdads. If so, you can catch them with a baited trap or at night in the shallows with a light. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Here is info from an expert:         As a former 10 year resident of Kauai this is how all the locals trap prawns.         They get the standard wire mesh with 1/4 inch square spaces. Bend the mesh until you have made a tube about 18 inches long open at both ends. Close off one end flat with the left over mesh. You then suspend half of a coconut shell with the coconut meat still in the shell in the back of the tube where you have closed it off with the meat facing the open end. You then take a piece of the same wire mesh and form a cone with the small end roughly about the size of a tennis ball depending on the size of the prawns in the pond you are looking to harvest. Insert the cone in the open end of the tube and affix to tube (this prevents them from leaving the trap). Tie a string to the end and leave over night and the next morning you should have a nice breakfast waiting for you.         If you have never seen a prawn they look almost exactly like crawdads but their pinchers are about ten times as long and their bodies can be as long as 12 to 14 inches. A true Hawaiian delicacy! Aloha, Shane — Roller Hockey International Grass Valley League Office 13070 Fawn Hill Dr. Grass Valley, CA  95945 ph: 916-272-7825        FAX: 916-272-7858         Standings/Statistics    http://www.oro.net/~rhiglo/

Response:

I’ve never done it before, but I have decided to try for freshwater prawns. These live in the streams on the Big Island of Hawaii.   Maybe someone could share some pointers on fishing techniques. I’ve heard of people using crab nets.  They seem too fast for wading in with scooping nets.  Are there traps that one can build? -thanx -dan

Response:

I’ve never done it before, but I have decided to try for freshwater prawns. These live in the streams on the Big Island of Hawaii.   Maybe someone could share some pointers on fishing techniques. I’ve heard of people using crab nets.  They seem too fast for wading in with scooping nets.  Are there traps that one can build? -thanx -dan

Are you talking about crawfish? or commonly called crawdads. If so, you can catch them with a baited trap or at night in the shallows with a light. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

Question:

I have a difficult decision to make, though it is one I wish I had to make more often… Two friends of mine are visiting me in Colorado in mid-September and we’re planning on four days of fishing. All of us have been angling for many years, and on this trip we don’t want to shit around. We’ve been throwing around ideas on a destination and have narrowed it down to either the San Juan in NM or the Green in UT. The final decision has been left to me and I need help from anglers who know these waters. Which one is preferable in September? Any advice on guides, camping/lodging, patterns, etc would be greatly appreciated. E-mail is fine; please include any phone numbers you might have. Thanks in advance, Spinoleo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a difficult decision to make, though it is one I wish I had to make more often… Two friends of mine are visiting me in Colorado in mid-September and we’re planning on four days of fishing. All of us have been angling for many years, and on this trip we don’t want to shit around. We’ve been throwing around ideas on a destination and have narrowed it down to either the San Juan in NM or the Green in UT. The final decision has been left to me and I need help from anglers who know these waters. Which one is preferable in September? Any advice on guides, camping/lodging, patterns, etc would be greatly appreciated. E-mail is fine; please include any phone numbers you might have. Thanks in advance, Spinoleo

I’ve just returned from a week on the San Juan.  Absolutely incredible. Don’t miss a chance to fish here.  There is abundant water and HUGE fish.  Although some spots do attract a large number of fisherman, I was able to find quiet waters without too much difficulty. Be prepared to fish extremely small flies, both emerger and dry, to extremely large fish.  One day I had to go down to a #26 midge.  Baetis were a bit slow by San Juan standards, but still abundant.  PMD were present, but seemed to be ignored by fish for the most part. As for guides, the people at Santa Fe Flyfishing School ((505) 986-3913) are great.  I believe they only offer wading trips, which in my mind is a great way to see and fish the San Juan. Accomodations can be had at any number of places on or close to the river.  My preference is the Enchanted Hideaway ((505) 632-2634).  Condo style lodging, convenient, and not cramped. Good luck. David

Response:

The Green is an exceptional fishery. Sometimes tiny flies are the norm, but in Sept. hoppers and crickets kill them in the backwater eddies. And the crowds start to thin out after Labor Day. And though I have never fished the San Juan, I heard that access without a boat is limited as opposed to the Green where you can walk and wade the entire river with no problem. And there is ample camping space and a great store in Dutch John that has all the information and flies you could ever need. The Green is my favorite river, bar none.

Response:

  And though I have never fished the San Juan, I heard that access without a boat is limited as opposed to the Green where you can walk and

The water just below the damn on the San Juan is easy access. At least the first few miles. Not necessarily easy to wade which depends on the water flow.

Response:

Question:

Normally I just give any fish I catch a slurp of beer before I let it go.   Sometimes a puff off my Cuentes Fuega, if I’m really in a good mood. Tim Walker

Most of the fish I catch prefer a fine Macanudo, but I’ve noticed no preference for any particular beer. Grant  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Bob feeding wild trout in Montana may not make the F&G happy but its makes : us who release them smile. Write me on e-mail about feeding trout because :                                                                     Bryant : Blewett STOP IT  !!! STOP IT RIGHT NOW DAMMIT !!!   Feeding Wild Trout ? You *MUST* be joking, RIGHT ?!?!? This really, really irritates me and I’ll flame until the damn cows come into the barn.  What are you trying to do here ?  Be ‘nice’ to the little fishies ?  What do you want…do you want them to come around like little collies when you get home from work ? You wanna *FEED* wild trout ?  Stay out of the damn river bed and let the little 400 per sq feet caddis worms make it to another instar.  You wanna be ‘nice’ to the fishie…don’t handle it at all out of the water. I’m sorry, but IMHO this is a really stupid idea. Tim Walker

Have to agree with Tim.  This bizarre practice, of which I have not heard until joining this newsgroup, smacks of trout training.  Now granted, most of us enjoy fishing for non-native species in non-natural environments (e.g., rainbow and brown trout in tailwater areas), so decrying the practice as ‘unnatural’ may be pointless; still, once you have shocked a fish’s system as hard as we do when we catch them, it seems outrageous to think that force-feeding them a grub before release can do anything but hurt them.  If you need to "pay the gods" or in some other way assuage your guilt about this sport, I suggest thinking seriously about what happens when we fish.  The bottom line is this:   Fishing KILLS FISH, whether we release them or not.  A 4% mortality rate on released fish seems like wishful thinking; and even if true, that’s 4 dead fish for every hundred you release.  It seems like some twisted form of denial to claim that we are helping trout by fishing for them.   Our "help" is a by-product of the fact that we care so much about them. Trying to obscure the fatal nature of our sport shows, I think, a lack of responsibility for our actions.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forgive me if this thread has come and gone…I haven’t seen it in the approx. six months I’ve been on the net. Whilst flipping through one of my many catalogs (Orvis? Cabela’s?) I came across the "accessories" page and found all of those ludicrous gadgets that no one in their right mind should pay money for like long handled bug nets, mesh mits to wear on your hand to "sift the drift", etc.  This section also contained what looked like one of those basting tubes you use to baste your turkey, i.e. it looks like a large plastic medicine dropper.  This contraption turned out to be a stomach pump, used to check out what a fish was eating without chopping it up. I had heard that these things were out there, but had never seen one before and it got me thinking…how many people actually use such things?  Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?  My guess is that the potential is there to do some serious damage.  Why would you use one of these things, anyway…if you’ve caught a fish, then you are using an imitation that looked enough like what the fish wanted to eat, enough to fool the fish, anyway.      Besides, isn’t much of the fun in flyfishing the mental aspects of solving the puzzle of what the fish are eating (and getting a reasonable facsimile in front of them)? Using one of these things seems to me a lot like doing a crossword puzzle by copying the solution from the back of the book. However, this concern of mine is secondary to my concern for the welfare of a pumped out fish.  Any thoughts? Paul DiConza       NY Capital District Angler

After reading this, my first reaction was if the fish wasn’t tramatized by the pump, then he probably had a reduced chance of surviving due to having an empty stomach and having to fill it again. This got me to thinking…. I know it’s weird, but what if before you release a fish you drop a food pellet or something similar into it’s gullet? A caught fish has to expend energy to fight, and if we are releasing fish, we want them to survive. Won’t their chances of survival be increased if we feed them before we release them? Maybe a fisheries biologist can concoct a high protien multi-vitamin pellet to give the fish before it’s released. Perhaps we can tip the scales in favor of survival instead of making the fish use precious energy needed for making through the next winter. Any comments? Darryl

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 A feeding frenzy breaks the placidity of the surface as wild voracious brown and rainbows(B.W.-Before Whirl) attack the pellets like blues on shad. He is prepared with his double pom pom chow fly he just bought at the Orvis

.shop.  He casts.  Hooks.  Lands.  He has to beach the 11" brut. Use cigarrete butts, they float well and their free. (accept at Orvis)

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: Normally I just give any fish I catch a slurp of beer before I let it go.   : Sometimes a puff off my Cuentes Fuega, if I’m really in a good mood. C’mon, you’re just blowing smoke up our…gills. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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STOP IT  !!! STOP IT RIGHT NOW DAMMIT !!!   Feeding Wild Trout ? You *MUST* be joking, RIGHT ?!?!? This really, really irritates me and I’ll flame until the damn cows come into the barn.  What are you trying to do here ?  Be ‘nice’ to the little fishies ?  What do you want…do you want them to come around like little collies when you get home from work ? You wanna *FEED* wild trout ?  Stay out of the damn river bed and let the little 400 per sq feet caddis worms make it to another instar.  You wanna be ‘nice’ to the fishie…don’t handle it at all out of the water. I’m sorry, but IMHO this is a really stupid idea. Tim Walker

    Tim, you seem to be a bit upset.

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I have been giving C&R fish nice fat grubs for the last several years. My only problem is, how do I explain to the game warden that "no I was not using bait…." On some rivers, you get to know some of the regular large trout.  Some guys bring in food, or toss peices of their lunch to these fish.  Peices of bologna, or wounded grasshoppers found on shore.  They just toss the food to the fish swimming in the river.  Somehow this seems a little more humane  and a lot easier.

And in some states, this could be called "chumming" and is illegal. IMHO, the practice doesn’t make sense anyway.  After being caught, a fish will be tired and scared, and the last thing it wants to do is eat dinner. It usually wants to go hide in a hole and recover for a while. A properly played fish shouldn’t need an extra meal to survive. — Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado       "Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."                                             – T.S. Eliot

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?   I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think they could do this on a fish to be released, …. Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released? Mark Vinsel Mark, you make a good point which I hadn’t thought about.  I just assumed that stomach pumps were in fact marketed for fish to be released.  It never occurred to me that one would want to use a pump on a dead fish…. Paul DiConza

I’ve seen fly fishing videos that demonstrate the use of a stomach pump on fish to be released, and that are fully expected to live.  I feel that there are many things that a flyfisher can do to increse a fish’s chances of survival, and certainly the less a fish is handled the better.  I try to release a fish at my feet while it is still in the water, by just grasping the fly and giving a quick little backwards twist.  I rarely touch a fish at all unless I plan to keep it.  On the other hand I am sure that those who use a stomach pump on a fish are trying to inteligently study the eating habits of the fish they catch, while still giving the fish a "good" chance of survival.   I hope the fish do survive, and I think that most could, if the angler is conscientious about all aspects of the catch/pump/and release process.  Let’s try not to be to hasty about condemning others about their fishing beliefs.   After all, those who don’t fish at all give the fish a much higher chance of survival.  Where does that place us on the rightousness continuum? Provo, Utah

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I don’t know, and I maybe putting my foot in my mouth, but I have read several books and articles about using stomach pumps on fish.  Some scientists say that if you are careful (and quick), using the pump will not hurt the fish in the slightest. -Paul *                       *    "To catch a river unguarded is less a        * * Paul "Cousin" Graham   *    matter of where to look than of when, and   * *                          *  I have a secret time."-Ted Leeson           *

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?   Yes, unless the fish was dead first. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think they could do this on a fish to be released, especially considering the clear correlation between small time out of water and death rate. I often check the contents of fish I keep, and it is fascinating. I have found two different fish caught from the same section of the same lake at the same time, each gorged with a different specific nymph. I have also set the contents in a cup of water over a weekend trip and watched most of the nymphs come back to life and hatch. A pump is not necessary. Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released? Mark Vinsel

Mark, you make a good point which I hadn’t thought about.  I just assumed that stomach pumps were in fact marketed for fish to be released.  It never occurred to me that one would want to use a pump on a dead fish, when it is so easy to examine the contents of the stomach when the fish is cut open. Maybe some people are too squeamish?!  However, in the back of my mind I seem to recollect a story I read where people were using these things on live fish and releasing the fish to die in the river.  I hope this practice isn’t widespread. Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released?

Yes!  I think it’s a cruel hoax on both fisherfolk and fish to even sell these things.  Now that I’m thinking about it, I beleive I shall send a letter to all my FF supliers and ask them to discontinue carrying them.  If you want to kill and eat a fish, feel free to examine it’s innards.  If you are going to let it go, then please do your best to insure that your efforts are rewarded with the fish surviving so I can catch it later.  Factors that have been shown to improve survival of C&R fish are:         1.      Use barbless hooks.         2.      Use single point hooks.         3.      Use artificial baits (eg flies)         4.      Handle the fish as little as possible         5.      Avoid taking the fish out of water Good luck, and may you get lots of practice in the art of C&R. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

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I agree that pumping the inerds of a fish is nasty and mean thing to do. Also, I imagine that it takes a lot of good fishing time away. Are we on the stream to peer into the gizzards of a lovely fish or enjoy the environment and …  Of course, if you’re trying to retrieve a fly… –grant

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… Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?  

Yes, unless the fish was dead first. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think they could do this on a fish to be released, especially considering the clear correlation between small time out of water and death rate. I often check the contents of fish I keep, and it is fascinating. I have found two different fish caught from the same section of the same lake at the same time, each gorged with a different specific nymph. I have also set the contents in a cup of water over a weekend trip and watched most of the nymphs come back to life and hatch. A pump is not necessary. Are these things marketed for use on fish to be released? Mark Vinsel May the wild ones live, and may their progeny break the tippets of our grandchildren. Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML

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Forgive me if this thread has come and gone…I haven’t seen it in the approx. six months I’ve been on the net. Whilst flipping through one of my many catalogs (Orvis? Cabela’s?) I came across the "accessories" page and found all of those ludicrous gadgets that no one in their right mind should pay money for like long handled bug nets, mesh mits to wear on your hand to "sift the drift", etc.  This section also contained what looked like one of those basting tubes you use to baste your turkey, i.e. it looks like a large plastic medicine dropper.  This contraption turned out to be a stomach pump, used to check out what a fish was eating without chopping it up.       I had heard that these things were out there, but had never seen one before and it got me thinking…how many people actually use such things?  Is the act of pumping out a fish’s stomach traumatic to the fish?  My guess is that the potential is there to do some serious damage.  Why would you use one of these things, anyway…if you’ve caught a fish, then you are using an imitation that looked enough like what the fish wanted to eat, enough to fool the fish, anyway.      Besides, isn’t much of the fun in flyfishing the mental aspects of solving the puzzle of what the fish are eating (and getting a reasonable facsimile in front of them)? Using one of these things seems to me a lot like doing a crossword puzzle by copying the solution from the back of the book. However, this concern of mine is secondary to my concern for the welfare of a pumped out fish.  Any thoughts? Paul DiConza     NY Capital District Angler

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Question:

Does it have the same warranty as the rods? Just think of it,a 25 year warranty; drive the damn thing into a tree–get a NEW one!!!Get hit by a bus–get a NEW one!! Break your Orvis Rod, closing your Orvis Edition door–get a NEW rod and Jeep!!! I can’t understand where you see this becoming a problem.It’s not like Ralph Lauren is coming out with a POLO line of yuppie flyfishing clothes, with $225.+ mock flyfishing vests made in Shri Lanka(spelled wrong:you know the place where Orvis has their flies tied.); which someone got  80 cents to make with $4.00 worth of material, and are going to sell these at OUR finer stores for mear profit! Personally, I’d like to see ALOT of people buy them. Picture this, 25 Orvis Edition Jeeps in the parking lot.25 paranoid new Orvis Edition owners,fishing as close to the parking lot, as possible; to watch their $25,00 plus investments. Me, I’ll be 100 yards up stream–FISHING BY MYSELF!!!!!

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OK, so maybe I’m a little bit biased because my vest is an Orvis, a gift a couple years back, but if there’s one thing ALMOST as annoying as a bunch of yuppies brand name-dropping on the stream bank, it’s a bunch of anti-yuppies on the opposite bank throwing rocks at them.       People object to the conspicuous consumption, brand name set because this group of people seem to judge personal worth by what company made their clothing, gear, car, etc.  OK, no problems there with me; I hate that stuff, too.  But aren’t we doing the same thing when we start to feel that anyone who purchases anything from Orvis falls into the dreaded Y-word category?  Now WE are the ones who are judging personal worth based on a label.  We have thus become the anti-snob, which is the same thing in my book.   IMHO Orvis sells some worthwhile gear, and some of it is reasonably priced for the quality you get, like the Battenkill disk reels and their super-strong leader material (who really makes that stuff, anyway…anyone know?).  Some of the stuff is overpriced, but a savvy angler can pick and choose…it just means more catalogs to go through during the loooong winter, which to me sounds like a good way to spend my time  ;) Happy Winter Solistice (the days will be getting longer soon, only 3.5 months until opening day…)             Paul DiConza NY Capital District Angler

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