Question:

Wednesday, Day Four of the Clave <snipped Dave

Thanks Dave.  Great TR. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Great reports Dave. I enjoyed every one. Darin

Response:

Wednesday, Day Four of the Clave

<snipped excellent TR I was waiting for the last TR in this series, but each one was poetic, concise, and informative. Thanks for taking the time to write them for us unfortunates that missed the party. Hopefully, next year. . . — TL, Tim

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Well you ole pirate had a good time did ye?? TR were fantastic read them all. No pirates in bvd siteings this time around?? Have a good trip to Lakewood .                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

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"Dave LaCourse" wrpte //great report snipped// Let’s do it again next year.  I won’t worry about snow and cold weather, and I’ll rent a Toyota. Eat your heart out, Ken.  You missed a good one. Thanks, Warren, Paul, John, and Jeffie. Dave

Marvelous reports, Dave. I enjoyed reading them and have filed them away in case I ever get out there. Bob

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Thanks for the great set of reports Dave.

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Rock Trout writes:

<snip Hey, "Bouncer".  LOL.  He probably got you confused with Bruiser. Thanks, new friend, for all that you did to make it a great clave.  I learned a lot by being in your boat for two days.   I need your address so I can send the flag.  Montana or Colorado? Send it by e-mail to Get rid of the pirate. Dave

Response:

Wednesday, Day Four of the Clave …….

Terrific reports Dave.  Glad you all had a good time…. and that the forces of law and order were not unduly taxed this time round…. ROFFians must be getting old . BTW, does anyone know a free news server that gets ROFF and allows posting?  The ones I’ve tried so far are good for one or the other, but not both. JR

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BTW, does anyone know a free news server that gets ROFF and allows posting?  The ones I’ve tried so far are good for one or the other, but not both.

news.cis.dfn.de does. (Go to http://news.cis.dfn.de/ to sign up). — Charlie…

Response:

Snip: Thanks a bunch for the whole series of reports. I wish I could have joined you all this year. Big Dale

Response:

Snip: Thanks a bunch for the whole series of reports. I wish I could have joined you all this year.

Wish you could have been there too BD. Guess what, I won your flies again (3rd time so far!). I gave some to IJ for his bream ponds, and we will each put them to good use. — Charlie…

Response:

BTW, does anyone know a free news server that gets ROFF and allows posting?  The ones I’ve tried so far are good for one or the other, but not both. news.cis.dfn.de does. (Go to http://news.cis.dfn.de/ to sign up).

That is the one I use. However, it does not get any of the binary groups. So if you want to see the pretty pictures of the big Brook Trout that the guys have posted you’ll have to find another way. FWIW, Russell

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again (3rd time so far!). I gave some to IJ for his bream ponds, and we will each put them to good use. —

I guess next time I should cut out the middleman and just mail them to you. Hope you have been catching a bunch of bluegill with them. Big Dale

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Snip: Thanks a bunch for the whole series of reports. I wish I could have joined you all this year.

Make sure Indian Joe doesn’t keep the painting you won in the raffle!

Response:

That is the one I use. However, it does not get any of the binary groups. So if you want to see the pretty pictures of the big Brook Trout that the guys have posted you’ll have to find another way.

Tera News (http://www.teranews.com/) gets binaries and allows posting. There’s a small one time fee to sign up and after that it’s free, but I haven’t found it to be that reliable – at least at that service level. There are other subscription rats that might be better. — Charlie…

Response:

again (3rd time so far!). I gave some to IJ for his bream ponds, and we will each put them to good use. — I guess next time I should cut out the middleman and just mail them to you. Hope you have been catching a bunch of bluegill with them.

Maybe that would be easier. <g When they announced what the next prize was going to be and I heard they were your flies, I just automatically got up and, sure enough, my number was drawn. — Charlie…

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Snip: Thanks a bunch for the whole series of reports. I wish I could have joined you all this year. Make sure Indian Joe doesn’t keep the painting you won in the raffle!

Indian Joe replies–Will get the painting to Big Dale as promised–how about telling him some background of this artwork. Hope the frame Dale uses will hide the pinholes it has developed  when attached to my wall while awaiting shipment.

Response:

Great reports Dave. I enjoyed every one. Darin

Darin, where were you this year?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Rock Trout writes: <snip Hey, "Bouncer".  LOL.  He probably got you confused with Bruiser. Thanks, new friend, for all that you did to make it a great clave.  I learned a lot by being in your boat for two days.   I need your address so I can send the flag.  Montana or Colorado? Send it by e-mail to Get rid of the pirate. Dave

With these reports, if they ever do HF again, most of ROFF will show up. Great job, old boy – see ya in a few weeks. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Wednesday, Day Four of the Clave My last day at the clave was spent alone.  Jeffie, Charlie, and Joe invited me to fish the Madison, but I had chores to do.  I would arrive home on Thursday and my wife’s birthday is on Friday.  I needed to buy some gifts.  I went to West Yellowstone to shop. Upon returning to the HF area, out of curiosity, I stopped at the dam.  There was a drift boat and several guys wading at the pool directly below the dam.  I parked in the put-in area and fished upstream.  I immediately got into a nice bow of about 16 inches, using a fly Bruiser had tied for me.  I fished for about an hour and landed another bow before leaving for lunch.   After lunch I found an easy trail down to the Box Canyon, much better than the shear drop at the camp ground.  It was tough wading because of a strong current and slippery rocks.  I threw all the "favorites" without a strike, managing to lose several flies to rocks, and Bruisers special home brew to a tree!  Damn! I remember Warren saying that a yellow stone fly works well in this water. Fortunately I had *one*.   Within minutes I had a nice bow on, and then another.  But, the current was getting to me.  So, rather than do a complete Full Reid with a half twist, I carefully waded ashore and returned to my car.   The water where Paul Morrison first put in for our first float seemed like a good spot to fish.  So, I drove to the put-in and fished for another hour or so, releasing a couple of whitefish and one bow.  It was a pretty good day considering I had no intention of fishing when I left the cabin. Some observations and conclusions: 1.      The Isuzu Trooper ain’t a very good suv.   Dan’l called it the Excuse You Pooper. <G 2.      The roads in Idaho and Montana are very well maintained and can handle the posted high speeds (65 in Idaho, 70 in Montana).  However, the rumble strips in Idaho are very close to the edge.  If you fall asleep and the car runs over the strip, you will have just enough time to open your eyes before you hit the trees!  <G 3.      There are no children in Last Chance. 4.      I never got to fish with Warren, RW, Bruiser, or Willi.  Perhaps next time.   5.      Paul Morrison and his wife Tammy are fun people.  Tammy is an absolute sweetheart.  These two kids are in love!  I would have been lost without them. Paul is a great boatman and got Charlie, Joe and me into some nice fish. 6.      John Hightower is a very talented man, easy going, and easy to like. He handled his handmade boat with ease (or so it seemed).  His wife Linda is a sweetheart, can handle a fairly big land yacht, and makes wonderful coffee. Let’s do it again next year.  I won’t worry about snow and cold weather, and I’ll rent a Toyota. Eat your heart out, Ken.  You missed a good one. Thanks, Warren, Paul, John, and Jeffie. Dave

Response:

Question:

I’m going to fishing Kolob Res. next week.  Any recent fishing reports and/or fly recommendations anyone care to pass on? Thanks, Eric

Though I’ve not been there this year, my family still lives in Virgin and Kolob is one of my "home" waters.  Its best fished this time of year from a float tube.  Remember, its gonna be cold up there, so put on the extra layers. I like to "troll" a big dragonfly nymph in the north end of the lake, near were the creek comes in.  The water is shallower there and will warm faster. Also, chironomids patterns can be successful near shore. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

I’m going to fishing Kolob Res. next week.  Any recent fishing reports and/or fly recommendations anyone care to pass on? Also, I will be up around the east of the South Slope of the Uintah Mountains (Uintah River) next week as well.  I’d appreciate fly recommendations on the streams and high lakes (Paradise, Pachetta) that you might have. Thanks, Eric

Response:

Question:

Today I finally found the time to head up to Boone and fish for trout. It had been nearly two months since my last visit. Fortunately, I was able to bring along an ex-ROFFian celebrity guest which had the added bonus of providing Waldo a bit of motivation to join us for the day. I think I can safely speak for all of three us when I say that we had a great time. After taking care of a few errands in the area, Celebrity Guest and I met Waldo at his house at about 9:30am and headed to the Watauga. We decided to fish the delayed harvest section for a while as we waited for the sun to come out and (hopefully) bring the fish to the surface. As it turns out, the fish never did really get into the swing of taking dry flies, so we (well, those of us with no scruples anyway) were relegated to fishing with nymphs. The stockers were unusually picky and much more of a challenge than normal. Not a bad thing at all, but in the end we did manage to catch a respectable number of fish. At about noon we headed to a wild stream that has quickly become one of my very favorite places on earth to fish. The water was running high and *cold* but relatively clear. I was actually glad that I had let Celebrity Guest borrow my nice breathable waders and that I had chosen to wear my neoprene backups. We fished some absolutely stunning stretches of water. Despite the fact that I’m practically only half the age of my fishing partners, I was the only one to take a spill. I didn’t get wet, but I did manage quite a shin shiner. Once again, dry flies did not produce (although Waldo and Celebrity Guest stuck to their dry fly guns with seasoned determination) but a few fish could be had here and there in the deep pools with small Prince nymphs and a couple of–ahem–sinkers. It’s interesting how different things are at this time of year than they were last year at this time. The water is much higher and colder which has likely delayed the dry fly action by several weeks. Or maybe that has nothing to do with it; who knows. Despite the predictions of rain showers, the weather was great. An almost eery cold front pushed its way into the area right as we were breaking down our gear (at about 3:30pm) and by 4:00pm it was butt cold outside. A good day on the stream and the company was most excellent. Can’t wait to do it again… –Steve

Response:

  Um, I need a ruling on the above: is it White Fish that he’s fucking, or is he a White Fucker who preys on fish?

Jeff preys on white fish.  What he did with them after that is still his little secret <g HTH. — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner…. Shut up  white fish fucker!

Um, I need a ruling on the above: is it White Fish that he’s fucking, or is he a White Fucker who preys on fish? /daytripper (Thanks in advance

Response:

So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that?

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner….

Response:

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner….

Shut up  white fish fucker! — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?  

Maybe they cut one leg off of Waldo’s old waders and made him hop from boulder to boulder. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Well hell’s bells, are you going to tell us who it is? It was Vern Ursenbach.

Cool! I always thought Vern was perfectly proportioned to fish those little NC streams. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?   (You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to rewrite that to avoid some sicko double-entendre.   e.g. Do you think Vern would fit in Zimbo’s

waders?) I am sure he could reside in one leg of Zimbo’s waders very comfortably <g — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.    So it must have been the dwarf.

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?   (You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to rewrite that to avoid some sicko double-entendre.   e.g. Do you think Vern would fit in Zimbo’s waders?) Joe F.

Response:

Charlie Wilson: "Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.   So it must have been the dwarf.

<splork  But I missed the computer!!! <g Dave

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It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right? Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

Oh, you mean Curt Gowdy

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It was the company that I help start (The American Sportsman’s Club" OR it is "The American Sportsman’s Series" that was directed by my good friend, who recently died, Burr Smidt who lives on Manasee Road in Sarasota Florida.  He has done a lot of production works that were outstanding, especially those done with his wife, Renee’ Valenti Smidt. The American Sportsman was a popular Television Series twenty years ago. Guests included Bing Crosby, and many other Hollywood American Sportsmen.  It was THE PREMIER Outdoors Program all others try to top. None have done it to date Warren. George     Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman. WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

GROSS! George was using that tag for a while last year. So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that? Why does it remind me of the old saying "You can hope in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first" ?.?.?.? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

    Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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George was using that tag for a while last year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman. WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

George was using that tag for a while last year.

So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that? Why does it remind me of the old saying "You can hope in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first" ?.?.?.? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right?

    Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right?

You’ll have to ask Mr. Wilson about that… –Steve

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"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.   So it must have been the dwarf.

Somehow I doubt Mrs. Dwarf would let him roam that far. /daytripper (My money’s on wayno…)

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Well hell’s bell’s, are you going to tell us who it is?

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I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well hell’s bell’s, are you going to tell us who it is?

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"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.

   So it must have been the dwarf.

Response:

Well hell’s bells, are you going to tell us who it is?

It was Vern Ursenbach. –Steve

Response:

It was Vern Ursenbach.

You are joking right?

Response:

<snipped nice TR for space? Glad you had a good time.  Perhaps you can broker a deal for their extra water to help fill up our rivers and resevoirs to keep California in electricity this summer. Was Wayno the celebrity guest? <g — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

Question:

I rec’d, in the mail today,  the August 7th issue of US News and World Report and on page 6 is states: Cheney is a passionate fly fisherman and an able wing shooter.  Former Secretary of State James Baker tells us that Cheney taught him to be a world-class fly-caster.  "Everything I know about fly-fishing I learned from Dick."  He tells of one trip when Cheney crawled on his belly up to a stream so as not to spook the fish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<)))’    <)))’    <)))’    <’(((<    <)))’    <)))’

Response:

  He tells of one trip when Cheney crawled on his belly up to a stream so as not to spook the fish.

        big deal.  after all, the guy is a career politician.         oh, well; i reckon he would do just fine up on slick rock creek. wayno(you see one, you’ve seen ‘em all)

Response:

Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift).  If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us.  Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all.  It is Royalex.  This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags.  Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve been doing your research.  I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question.  Like you, I wanted the best for the least.  I purchased a OT Disco158.  I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull.  I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children.  I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it.  I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it.  I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think.  I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty."  The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs.  A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it.  You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years.  I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing.  If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought.  You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…    

                        ~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats.  They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate.  Not a bad deal for a first boat.   They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website:  www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

Response:

Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

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If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it!  If you want a boat, get one of the others.  Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat.  you need to try them.  Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water.  Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

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Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t.  Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc.  I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman.  Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet.  Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane?  You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet?  I’m the newsletter editor.  We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it.  Email me if you want more info.

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For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17.  I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA.  It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability.  It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig.  Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker.  Its a great tripping boat.

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Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass.  Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials.  I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc.  Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water.  About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink.  It’s well worth the upgrade cost.  I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe.

Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible).  I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet.  I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that.  A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900.  Western Canoeing has similar boats.  Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level.  For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays?  It will be heavier and harder to paddle.  Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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Question:

I have recently begun fly fishing and am from the New Orleans area. Can anyone offer some specific areas to fish near here. I know there are many places around here, I just don’t know where they are. I am looking for places to fish both from a boat and from shore or wading. I’ve been with a guide, but it won’t take long to run out of money if I use one every time I want to fish. Thanks. Larry

Response:

My suggestion is to go see Tom at Bayou Specialties in Jefferson–he can point you in the right direction–and tell him Jeff Boudreaux sent you. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have recently begun fly fishing and am from the New Orleans area. Can anyone offer some specific areas to fish near here. I know there are many places around here, I just don’t know where they are. I am looking for places to fish both from a boat and from shore or wading. I’ve been with a guide, but it won’t take long to run out of money if I use one every time I want to fish. Thanks. Larry

Response:

Lake Calcasieu (sp.?) near Lake Charles is supposed to be excellent for salt water.  You can contact Dave at Orvis Houston 713-783-1111 or an Orvis shop if you have one in N.O. for more info & good guides info. Tight lines Al Carlton

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Larry… was just going through the newsgroups postings and found your request…hope you don’t mind some advice. In order to be successful you need to find an area that you like and get to know it….well! No one can just pull into somewhere they’ve never been before and expect to put fish in the boat. It takes time to learn a spot geographically, as well as the tidal effects, fly selection, etc. Even though I am a guide and have fished all over the US for the last 30 years or so….I always hire a guide the first day or two I go somewhere new. When I feel I know what’s going on, then I strike out on my own…it’s the only way to optimize your chances. As far as the guide thing goes, yes…I agree it is expensive. However, there are ways to captilize on your investment. First…find a good guide who works in the area you want to learn. In New Orleans, I’d call Capt. Kirby LeCour (540-464-1697..tell him I recommended you). Tell him you want to learn the area so you can fish on your own. When you go out, ask a LOT of questions…pay attention to WHERE you go….and spend your time LEARNING…not worrying about how many fish you put in the box. By the way, one gentleman referred you to the ORVIS store in Houston. He also suggested you fish Calcasieu Lake in SW Louisiana. I agree with one of his points…Calcasieu is a great area. I know…I guide here. As for contacting them…well, caveat emptor. If I can be of any help, lemme know. Capt. Briant Smith Lake Charles, LA

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Question:

Happy New Year to all my fellow Fisher-people. This light spinning tackle inshore salt water fisherman is ready to learn how to fish with a fly rod. I am looking for a 9ft 8wt fly rod that will be my learning rod. My question then is… How good are Cabela’s saltwater Fly rod blanks? How Bout the SL or FT blanks? How would these compare to the GLoomis GL3 blanks? Or is there a better route to take, maybe a fly rod combo set-up for saltwater. What do I need to look for when picking out a fly reel? Is there one type/model/construction/drag that would be advantageous over another? Thanks, Jay

Jay I can’t talk about Cabela’s, I don’t use their stuff, but I have used a Loomis GL3 8/9 weight 9 foot megataper saltwater rod for the past two years.  Unlike other salties, it has a soft tip that makes it useful for salmon, steelhead, bass, pike etc. (my type of fishing.) The usual salty is a broomstick, designed to put a lot of leverage on a fish.  Generally, they are brute force canons capable of great distances but pathetic to cast with any finesse.  They don’t really begin to load until you’ve got 30-40 foot of line beyond the tiptop. The GL3 8/9 is an exception, capable of delicate short casts, yet can match distance with any of them. Good diameter butt section for strength.  Very light, which is very important at the end of a long day.  At 3.85 ounces, there are 6 and 7 weights that weigh more. I was recently fishing for steelhead with another fishermen who was using an Orvis Trident salty.  He fishes salt frequently, and he made the same comments to me, as we compared rods.  I found his rod difficult to cast well, probably would be very difficult for a beginner.  On the other hand, my GL3 8/9 feels like a nice trout 6 weight, very easy to cast. A good reel match for the GL3 8/9 is the Lamson 3.5.  Tough reel, good drag, balances out the GL3 8/9 beautifully, tons of room for backing. Peter

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Happy New Year to all my fellow Fisher-people. This light spinning tackle inshore salt water fisherman is ready to learn how to fish with a fly rod. I am looking for a 9ft 8wt fly rod that will be my learning rod. My question then is… How good are Cabela’s saltwater Fly rod blanks? How Bout the SL or FT blanks? How would these compare to the GLoomis GL3 blanks? Or is there a better route to take, maybe a fly rod combo set-up for saltwater. What do I need to look for when picking out a fly reel? Is there one type/model/construction/drag that would be advantageous over another? Thanks, Jay

I know I’ll eat some flames for this but I would recommend getting one of the Orvis Clearwater combos.  I think the 8wt goes for about $180.00 and it is ready to fish.  I own one and it casts nice, and can double as a steelhead/salmon rod when you are in the mood. -John —        My Policy is to ALWAYS Blame the Computer

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Anything Cabela’s sells is usually very good and they give you a 100% satisfaction guaranty.   Joel Axelrad

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Happy New Year to all my fellow Fisher-people.  This light spinning tackle inshore salt water fisherman is ready to learn how to fish with a fly rod. I am looking for a 9ft 8wt fly rod that will be my learning rod. My question then is… How good are Cabela’s saltwater Fly rod blanks? How Bout the SL or FT blanks? How would these compare to the GLoomis GL3 blanks? Or is there a better route to take, maybe a fly rod combo set-up for saltwater. What do I need to look for when picking out a fly reel? Is there one type/model/construction/drag that would be advantageous over another? Thanks, Jay

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Question:

Tried to access the web page to get some info for a trip next month but the browser couldn’t find it.  Has flyline.com moved?  I tried adventurewest.com too, but it couldn’t be found either. Brent

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Tried to access the web page to get some info for a trip next month but the browser couldn’t find it.  Has flyline.com moved?  I tried adventurewest.com too, but it couldn’t be found either. Brent

Not sure, but I think the server on which Ralph has his web site is down. I haven’t  been able to get through either for the last several days. FAS

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Hi-   We live- but our server has been unplugged. We were on the Adventure West Magazine server. Ad West, left for bigger digs in Seattle and in the process, apparently, unplugged their server. They have yet to answer my email or phone class regarding the situation. We WILL reappear, but I’m at a loss as to when, where and under what guise. -Ralph Tried to access the web page to get some info for a trip next month but the browser couldn’t find it.  Has flyline.com moved?  I tried adventurewest.com too, but it couldn’t be found either. Brent Not sure, but I think the server on which Ralph has his web site is down. I haven’t  been able to get through either for the last several days. FAS

California School of Flyfishing. Fishing conditions, hatch charts, product reviews, tips, techniques and more.  http://www.FLYLINE.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi-   We live- but our server has been unplugged. We were on the Adventure West Magazine server. Ad West, left for bigger digs in Seattle and in the process, apparently, unplugged their server. They have yet to answer my email or phone class regarding the situation. We WILL reappear, but I’m at a loss as to when, where and under what guise. -Ralph Tried to access the web page to get some info for a trip next month but the browser couldn’t find it.  Has flyline.com moved?  I tried adventurewest.com too, but it couldn’t be found either. Brent Not sure, but I think the server on which Ralph has his web site is down. I haven’t  been able to get through either for the last several days. FAS California School of Flyfishing. Fishing conditions, hatch charts, product reviews, tips, techniques and more.  http://www.FLYLINE.com

Ralph, Could you post a Tahoe area report here? Thanks, Michael Smith

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Question:

Harrison, You may be right.  I believe I observed Jim and Kelly Watt on the tele one Sat. morning years ago.  For the life of me I can’t remember what ol’ Jimbo looks like BUT I have a vivid picture of Kelly, lips and all.   "Epoxylips", I need to remember that one.  Thank you for correcting me. Stephen Hiner

Stephen:         Just to set you straight, Jimbo is the one who laughs all the time – every nightclub comedians dream. His vocabulary also seems to consist of a single phrase, "oooooooh, NICE FISH". The other member of the dynamic duo squeals a lot and also has a limited vocabulary, i.e., "ooooooooh, THANK YOU FISH". Sometimes they get confused and say things like "THANK YOU, oooooooooh, NICE FISH", or even "NICE, ooooooh, YOU FISH THANK which isn’t in the script. Then they are difficult to tell apart. I think the double XX member of duo wears pink neoprenes, but I haven’t watched the show in years, so maybe I am mistaken.                                 Harrison

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A sure sign – the apocalypse is near!!!! Stephen Hiner

I’m not sure you meant "apocalypse". Didn’t you mean "epoxylips?"                                                 HRS

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Harrison, You may be right.  I believe I observed Jim and Kelly Watt on the tele one Sat. morning years ago.  For the life of me I can’t remember what ol’ Jimbo looks like BUT I have a vivid picture of Kelly, lips and all.  "Epoxylips", I need to remember that one.  Thank you for correcting me. Stephen Hiner

Response:

Folks, most of you are probably aware of the Forum over at the Virtual Flyshop, (chat room, message boards, etc), but our ‘Experts’ board has been down for some time. We’re pleased to announce tha it is back up again, and we have some excellent fly fishermen willing to field your questions, including Gary LaFontaine, Jim Teeny, Jim & Kelly Watt, Dan Wright, Ian Martin and others. Please feel free to make use of this service! The URL for the VFS Forum is http://www.flyshop.com/Forum Thanks, — Mike Tucker-  The Virtual Flyshop Web: http://www.flyshop.com Phone: 970/225-6445

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A sure sign – the apocalypse is near!!!! Stephen Hiner

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Question:

release fly fishing only legislation.  Many states throughout the country have "C&R FlyFishing Only" streams or sections of streams; unfortunately North Carolina is not one of them.  

Well David, I think, actually I know, that you are wrong in the above statement.  North Carolina has many C&R only streams or sections thereof.  Two of the most noteworthy are Lost Cove Creek and part of the South Toe River.  You have to hunt to find them, but they are there.   Also, you should try some of NC’s Wild Trout streams.  They are not strictly C&R, for certain reasons, but they will challenge and amaze even the best fly fishers. Good luck with that legislation! -Paul *                       *    "To catch a river unguarded is less a        * * Paul "Cousin" Graham   *    matter of where to look than of when, and   * *                          *  I have a secret time."-Ted Leeson           *

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We have all seen our favorite streams become glutted as the interest in fishing grows.  Interest in fishing with bait, lure and fly.   At the risk of sounding elitist, which I am not by any stretch of the imagination, I feel motivated to inquire about the steps one might take to push for catch & release fly fishing only legislation.  Many states throughout the country have "C&R FlyFishing Only" streams or sections of streams; unfortunately North Carolina is not one of them.   Can anyone provide information or feedback that would help me get the ball rolling. David T. Pharr

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