Question:

Try building an order entry system for a large telco with a unionized work force. The union threatens to sue the company over the fonts and says the system is too easy to use, thereby threatening the jobs of the current call center workers because they "could" "conceivalby" be replaced by lower paid workers who don’t require the *13 weeks* of training that the old sytem required. This was a few jobs ago

Sheesh… you came just in time.  I was about to crack open a roll of foil On a positive note, I get back-to-back to business trips to San Diego and Las Vegas. So hopefully I can break out of the Northern VA winter doldrums and get in five or six rounds of golf.

Oh, man, then what do you have to complain about?  You have it pretty darn good, if you ask me.

Response:

Try building an order entry system for a large telco with a unionized work force. The union threatens to sue the company over the fonts and says the system is too easy to use, thereby threatening the jobs of the current call center workers because they "could" "conceivalby" be replaced by lower paid workers who don’t require the *13 weeks* of training that the old sytem required. This was a few jobs ago On a positive note, I get back-to-back to business trips to San Diego and Las Vegas. So hopefully I can break out of the Northern VA winter doldrums and get in five or six rounds of golf. Tim T – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly Try developing intranet portals for HR/Payroll departments in corporations all year.  They complain about the type and the color of fonts you used.  Oh, and "the background color for the menus is not pleasing to the eye".  I’d have a better time chewing on aluminum foil while staring at a wall for a week.  And at least you "program".  I feel more like a glorified website designer.

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Maybe he should stop using the Momentus Training Club….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

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– "

— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding? Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money.

I imagine most people would say they have more fun at play rather than work. I just don’t have much sympathy for him.  He’s playing golf for a living for God’s sake.  How much better can it get. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                   Bruce E. Newman  *  Fredericton, NB, Canada               http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb      info at benewman dot bizland dot com   *   http://go.to/bruce_newman

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Try developing intranet portals for HR/Payroll departments in corporations all year.  They complain about the type and the color of fonts you used.  Oh, and "the background color for the menus is not pleasing to the eye".  I’d have a better time chewing on aluminum foil while staring at a wall for a week.  And at least you "program".  I feel more like a glorified website designer.

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"I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Sorry Jeff, but now heaven will be a let down. Cheers, Mike

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money.  At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while.  He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut.  It was a depressing sight.  Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money.  That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa?  That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game. I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing.

Appearances can be deceiving… Both Jack and Tiger really enjoy what they’re doing… The fact that they’re quieter or more reserved than other competitors doesn’t mean aren’t having fun. — Cheers- Jeff Setaro http://people.mags.net/jasetaro/ PGP Key IDs DH/DSS: 0×5D41429D RSA: 0×599D2A99 New RSA: 0xA19EBD34

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I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing. Appearances can be deceiving… Both Jack and Tiger really enjoy what they’re doing… The fact that they’re quieter or more reserved than other competitors doesn’t mean aren’t having fun.

Although Jack has admitted to not enjoying the game as much as his competitors back in his younger days. Still, as a spectator, I enjoy watching performers who seem to be enjoying themselves.  This applies at all levels, ages; in sports, and other show biz.

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The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money.  At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while.  He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut.  It was a depressing sight.  Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money.  That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa?  That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game.

I agree – but Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods don’t appear to be at the top of the "having fun" scale while playing.

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— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding? Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money.

The trick is to have fun _and_ earn money.  At the GHO last summer, I followed Duval’s group for a while.  He was laboring his way through the round, looking like he was having a miserable time out there on his way to missing the cut.  It was a depressing sight.  Contrast that with Fred Funk, who was seen several times on TV last season, having fun, playing well, and making plenty of money.  That’s the way to go. Does good play lead to a positive attitude, or vice versa?  That conundrum is one of the things that makes golf such a great game.   – cja

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. "I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

Ah, but what if they paid your to fly fish? You might loose your enthusiasm for it.  (p.s. I don’t know who *they* are or I’d have that job already)

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

"I had a better time fly fishing in Montana for 10 days than I had all year programming." — Jeff Connelly

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

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Final word "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

I think he said pretty much the same thing last year. Probably explains his season. — Dan Driscoll Charter Member Super Secret Sinister Golf Society (SSSGS)

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–   "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval.

How much money did he earn snowboarding?

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— "I had a better time snowboarding in two weeks than I had all year playing golf." — David Duval. How much money did he earn snowboarding?

Given his bank account, how much did he _need_ to earn? The statement was about having fun, not earning money. Bruce                   Bruce E. Newman  *  Fredericton, NB, Canada                                 http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb      info at benewman dot bizland dot com   *   http://go.to/bruce_newman

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Question:

The majority of the people here on ROFF involved in the incredible amount of bickering are looking like morons, and yes I aught to know. ROFF is like a classroom full of highschool girls who talk and talk and talk but don’t seem to DO anything about it.  All of you who are tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard thinking you sound tough… well, you don’t, you sound like pansies, because most of you don’t have the courage to say those things face to face.  If you are really that insulted or irate, get on a fricken airplane and have it out.  Otherwise, please shut up.  PLEASE.

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… Otherwise, please shut up.  PLEASE.

Please accept my heartfelt apologies, Mr. Salad, for any bickering in this newsgroup which may have impeded your ability to post a trip report, a tackle review or a query about fly fishing. Rest assured, your scathing commentary has cut us, all of us, to the quick, and we humbly await your further instructions on what is meet and proper. — Ken Fortenberry

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    Please accept my heartfelt apologies, Mr. Salad, for any bickering  in    this newsgroup which may have impeded your ability to post a trip report,    a tackle review or a query about fly fishing. ..apology accepted. Please accept my apology for believing that childish whining equals off topic posting.

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Please accept my apology for believing that childish whining equals off topic posting.

No problemo, but please prefix the subject line with "OT:" the next time you feel inclined to post. /daytripper (hth

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The majority of the people here on ROFF involved in the incredible amount of bickering are looking like morons, and yes I aught to know.

AH-HA!  So YOU are the "King of the Morons"…I was wondering just who it was, and suspected he might just be hangin’ around ROFF…and just why weren’t you right in thick of it?  Pansy!  Pansy! ROFF is like a classroom full of highschool girls who talk and talk and talk but don’t seem to DO anything about it.  

Highschool girls? HIGHSCHOOL GIRLS?  HEY, LOOK BUDDY, I’LL HAVE YOU KNOW I HAVE JUST ONE QUESTION – er, where is wayno? All of you who are tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard thinking you sound tough… well, you don’t, you sound like pansies, because most of you don’t have the courage to say those things face to face.  

Oh, shoot, Mark, we can’t ALL be as tough and rugged as you’d like…heck, some of us are barely able to get our thin, pale, and sickly fingers to move across the keyboard, and now, you want actual physical violence…you, sir, are a meany!   Heck, why just last week, as I was beating "The Rock" into a bloody pulp for suggesting that I had, perhaps, forgotten my manners and not held my pinkie properly during elevensies, I thought to myself, "you know, I’m getting much too old for this.  It’d be so much easier to simply go and screw around with them wimps (hey, you say "pansy," I say "wimps," but let’s call the whole thing off…topic…or A CAGE MATCH TO DEATH!!!) on ROFF"…when I had to put him into "The Double Suplex Sleeping Clawraker" for not passing the biscuits fast enough, I decided: ATTACK!  ATTACK!! If you are really that insulted or irate, get on a fricken airplane and have it out.  Otherwise, please shut up.  PLEASE.

Well, shoot, bubba, post your addy, and see who (or what) might show up…I know ol’ Rock is spoiling for a real throw-down, and he ain’t up to foolin’ with me no more…’coursin, if you wanna to come on over, I’ll be happy to confuse you in person, all live and in technicolor… HTH, R

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DAMN!  Busted!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No problemo, but please prefix the subject line with "OT:" the next time you feel inclined to post. /daytripper (hth

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The majority of the people here on ROFF involved in the incredible amount of bickering are looking like morons, and yes I aught to know. ROFF is like a classroom full of highschool girls who talk and talk and talk but don’t seem to DO anything about it.  All of you who are tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard thinking you sound tough… well, you don’t, you sound like pansies, because most of you don’t have the courage to say those things face to face.  If you are really that insulted or irate, get on a fricken airplane and have it out.  Otherwise, please shut up.  PLEASE.

Bring it on particle boy!  Look up my address and book the flight…

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Please accept my apology for believing that childish whining equals off topic posting.

Apology accepted……not that it’s needed; you may feel free to whine whenever the urge strikes. Wolfgang

Response:

The majority of the people here on ROFF involved in the incredible amount of bickering are looking like morons, and yes I aught to know. ROFF is like a classroom full of highschool girls who talk and talk and talk but don’t seem to DO anything about it.  All of you who are tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard thinking you sound tough… well, you don’t, you sound like pansies, because most of you don’t have the courage to say those things face to face.  If you are really that insulted or irate, get on a fricken airplane and have it out.  Otherwise, please shut up.  PLEASE.

Hmph!  Don’t suppose you’d be interested in taking a plane to Milwaukee and saying that?  If not, please shut up. Wolfgang apparently living in a world in which that really needs to be said from time to time……go figure.

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Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmph!  Don’t suppose you’d be interested in taking a plane to Milwaukee and saying that?  If not, please shut up.

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Thanks for the invite.  I don’t recall calling you out or talking smack on the newsgroup, but correct me if I’m wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bring it on particle boy!  Look up my address and book the flight…

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particle salad writes: Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town.

Candy ass!

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particle salad writes: Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town. Candy ass!

I spent 5 minutes in Milwaukee, I think.  Depending, of course, if the section of I-90 on which I was travelling was actually inside the city limits.  Didn’t see anything to make me want to return; though, to be fair, I probably wasn’t looking at the nicer part of the city. Kevin

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – particle salad writes: Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town. Candy ass! I spent 5 minutes in Milwaukee, I think.  Depending, of course, if the section of I-90 on which I was travelling was actually inside the city limits.  Didn’t see anything to make me want to return; though, to be fair, I probably wasn’t looking at the nicer part of the city. Kevin

You must be one of those Italian drivers, not looking in the rearview mirror and all…. TC, R

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Thanks for the invite.  I don’t recall calling you out or talking smack on the newsgroup, but correct me if I’m wrong.

Well, your original post was talking smack, and I’m talking smack back.  It’s a talk-back smack attack, Jack.  It sounded like kind of a silly post considering that you were basically doing what you accused others of – "tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard." Therefore I didn’t take you seriously, and my reply wasn’t serious either.  On the other hand, if you were serious, then come on over and Jeff Miller and I will give you at least 5 seconds of ass whuppin’ before we keel over and regretfully submit to your will. JeffC (hey, where ya goin guys?  hey Jeff, come back, hey come on, stop kiddin’ around!)

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… then come on over and Jeff Miller and I will give you at least 5 seconds of ass whuppin’ before we keel over and regretfully submit to your will.

um…well…it’s kinda like this…i’ll do my 5 seconds worth, but i ain’t keelin over and submitting to nobody’s will cept maybe nicole kidman or gwyneth paltrow’s mom or… well, you know, that deliverance movie changed the way even some of us nobless oblige boys look at things…  sure you understand.  but, i’ll be right there to open the first beer in celebration…no matter who is right or wrong or the winner or left standin…but, i ain’t keelin and submittin. no sir. jeff

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … then come on over and Jeff Miller and I will give you at least 5 seconds of ass whuppin’ before we keel over and regretfully submit to your will. um…well…it’s kinda like this…i’ll do my 5 seconds worth, but i ain’t keelin over and submitting to nobody’s will cept maybe nicole kidman or gwyneth paltrow’s mom or… well, you know, that deliverance movie changed the way even some of us nobless oblige boys look at things…  sure you understand.  but, i’ll be right there to open the first beer in celebration…no matter who is right or wrong or the winner or left standin…but, i ain’t keelin and submittin. no sir. jeff

So, that’s one "keel and submit," and one "stand and deliver"…or rather, I guess, one "stand, and no "Deliverance"… TC, R …jus’ tryin’ to make sure my notes is accurate and all…

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Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town.

Four will do. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – particle salad writes: Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town. Candy ass! I spent 5 minutes in Milwaukee, I think.  Depending, of course, if the section of I-90 on which I was travelling was actually inside the city limits.  Didn’t see anything to make me want to return; though, to be fair, I probably wasn’t looking at the nicer part of the city.

It’s a city.  Got some good stuff and some bad stuff.  If you stayed on 90 you DEFINITELY didn’t see the better parts of Milwaukee.      :) Wolfgang

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considering that you were basically doing what you accused others of – "tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard."

Well, OK, if you want to go that way… I guess I was speaking more about those making personal insults, calling people out.  I KNOW most of the people making those insults would NOT make them face to face.. that’s the thing that I find amusing, the talking tough part from a safe distance… On the other hand, if you were serious, then come on over and Jeff Miller and I will give you at least 5 seconds of ass whuppin’ before we keel over and regretfully submit to your will.

You’re wise to bring a friend… er, nevermind…

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Hey at least they have beer… er, nevermind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Milwaukee?  As if I’d spend five minutes in THAT town. Four will do. Wolfgang

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My biggest problem in this is that I wouldn’t take this crap from anyone face to face and would probably be even more direct in person. Hence, my reluctance to walk away. However, given the obvious fact that some will never let go I have no other way of dealing with these things than by non response. I’m not good at it, I’ll be the first to admit, and I’ve tried and failed before, but I’m game to give it another go. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – considering that you were basically doing what you accused others of – "tossing insults from behind your nice safe computer keyboard." Well, OK, if you want to go that way… I guess I was speaking more about those making personal insults, calling people out.  I KNOW most of the people making those insults would NOT make them face to face.. that’s the thing that I find amusing, the talking tough part from a safe distance… On the other hand, if you were serious, then come on over and Jeff Miller and I will give you at least 5 seconds of ass whuppin’ before we keel over and regretfully submit to your will. You’re wise to bring a friend… er, nevermind…

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My biggest problem in this is that I wouldn’t take this crap from anyone face to face and would probably be even more direct in person. Hence, my reluctance to walk away. However, given the obvious fact that some will never let go I have no other way of dealing with these things than by non response. I’m not good at it, I’ll be the first to admit, and I’ve tried and failed before, but I’m game to give it another go. Clark

That’s the spirit Clark! Hey, picture this:  you work as an electrician and have been a fairly rugged sort most of your life, and one day on the job a masons-helper comes up to ya and says, "A fella told me you was queer, is it true?"  So you say, "Yeah, it’s true, I’m gay.  So what?"  And he says, "No, really, are you queer?"  And I say, (oops) and you say, "Yes it’s true!  You wanna go out or somethin’?" Well, he just walks off scrathin’ his head, and you walk off knowin’ every swingin’ dick on the job is soon to believe you are gay.  And I say, FUCK’EM IF THEY CAN’T TAKE A JOKE! Op  –strictly heterosexually celibate–

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I hear you… I wouldn’t take that kind of crap face to face either, but you have to realize that those who are out there making all the spineless threats are usually the kind of people who feel powerless in all other areas of their lives.. and when they have the opportunity to act without fear of physical retribution, they suddenly feel brave.  Go figure. I think you’re better off with the non response… or at least a stab at humor.  Don’t let the weasels get to you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My biggest problem in this is that I wouldn’t take this crap from anyone face to face and would probably be even more direct in person. Hence, my reluctance to walk away. However, given the obvious fact that some will never let go I have no other way of dealing with these things than by non response. I’m not good at it, I’ll be the first to admit, and I’ve tried and failed before, but I’m game to give it another go.

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I hear you… I wouldn’t take that kind of crap face to face either, but you have to realize that those who are out there making all the spineless threats are usually the kind of people who feel powerless in all other areas of their lives.. and when they have the opportunity to act without fear of physical retribution, they suddenly feel brave.  Go figure. I think you’re better off with the non response… or at least a stab at humor.  Don’t let the weasels get to you.

Fuckin’ weasels!  They’re everywhere. Op  –whars ma varmit gun–

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Question:

First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes:

The guy obviously wants a "yes" or "no" answer, Richard. Cut the bullshit. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes: The guy obviously wants a "yes" or "no" answer, Richard. Cut the bullshit.

Well, give him Lefty’s answer…

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That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer.

If a beginner fortunate enough to have a friend, acquaintance, fellow club member, etc, who is a competent tyer, and is willing to spend a little time with him, (or her),  that is likely the best way to learn the fine points of fly dressing. Whether you are tying or buying, IMHO, that is the best way to go. I have had the good fortune to be associated with several excellent tyers over the last thirty odd years, and most of the limited skills I have, came from observing and talking to them. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Modern tyers who discuss such matters in their writing, ala Gierach, seem to average between 12 and 24 flies an hour, depending on pattern, so let’s say 18 an hour.  

I average 4 flies per hour.  When tying for last year’s ROFF fly swap I was doing about 6 per hour after I had tied the first 10 or so.  I guess I never really sit down to just tie like a fiend.  Usually the TV is on or I’m having a drink or both. Mu

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exact same materials, if you sit down 50 tiers and have each of them tie the same pattern, each will be different and most tiers would be able to pick out the fly he tied from the others.

This kind of makes me think of a quote by Jimmy Vaughn when talking about the way his brother played guitar. He simply said," Stevie never played a song the same way once." I think that the variations are what makes tying so interesting. I don’t see why everyone is so concerned about the cost of flies. Since I started tying flies i think that I now have the cost down to about ten bucks a fly. As the guy said after getting out of rehab, tying flies is only slightly more expensive than drugs. Big Dale Big Dale

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Try five-minute-epoxy, and hold the half chicken by the wing for the last thirty seconds ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC  Is that why my flies take so long to make?  I thought it was because I superglued my fingers to the vise.      Frank "sparse means only half a chicken" Reid

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It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer.

I think the best bet is to acquire a few from a reliable source…..local fly shop, established mail order supplier, etc., and compare with a variety of cheap flies from K-Mart and other similar sources.  It has been my experience that the differences between good quality flies and crap are striking.  Even a novice should have little trouble spotting the difference after a brief side by side comparison. Wolfgang

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I do not believe there are any really simple answers to many of the questions involved in angling, including the one you posed.  One reason why it is so fascinating.  Even the most simplistic approach requires considerable knowledge before success is likely to be achieved consistently. Beginners, per definition, have difficulties in a whole range of areas, and there is no way to alleviate this, except by obtaining information and gaining experience. This is unfortunately also somewhat complicated nowadays by the vast amount of literature and other information available, much of it of exceedingly doubtful value or pedigree. Beginners are in no position to be able to decide which advice is good, or not. One symptom of this is the veritable flood of books, magazines, websites, your discipline of choice here, be it angling, casting, tying, wading, tying knots, building rods, making leaders, and a host of other stuff.  Some of these things promise immediate expertise just by virtue of reading/perusing them, even a beginner must realise that this is nonsense. Completely independent of what you do, hobbywise, or professionally, the only really sensible way to become better at it, is to do it, at the same time obtaining as much knowledge and experience as you possibly can. One day, or even one hour on the stream with an experienced angler will books.   As will one hour at the bench of a good fly-dresser help you in regard to flies. Quite a few people e-mail me and the same questions are asked over and over again. While I invariably reply to the best of my knowledge and ability, I am often disappointed to discover that many people have made little or no attempt to obtain the information for themselves, either by researching, or simply by trying things out for themselves.  A potted version, with exact instructions from an "expert" suits them better. There are no recipes for instant success at anything, but it appears that more and more people are subscribing to such a belief.  The internet itself, in my opinion one of the greatest achievements on the planet, achieved basically because meddling politicians were kept out of it from the start, is being viewed by more and more people as a portal to instant knowledge, expertise and general entertainment,  from the comfort of their armchairs, without any particular physical effort on their part, and without having to think for themselves. Many people view the newsgroups as a simple and effective way of gaining information they are too lazy to acquire for themselves, and have the cheek to complain, when their often ill worded and arrogant demands are not immediately fulfilled. Their input is also invariably zero. You get out of fishing, or practically anything else, including newsgroups and the like, more or less proportionally to your investment.  Expecting anything else is rather short-sighted to say the least. Even where I to come up with answers to some of the questions, like the one you posed, I fear it would be a mistake to hand it out gratis to all and sundry.  It is apparently so, that many who receive something for nothing, are considerably less appreciative of it, than they would be, had they been obliged to work for it, or pay for it in some manner. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer. Willi

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You get what you pay for.

This is a phrase that is widely tossed around and is applied to everything that is offered for sale. Although there is SOME truth to this saying, people relying on this advice only, are going to make many bad purchases. Buying based solely on price is a foolish way to purchase anything. Willi

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All very true Willi. Some shop flies have enough materials in them to dress three or more flies.  It is a common tendency for beginners  to apply too much dubbing, too many turns of hackle, too much wing, even too many turns of thread.  Very difficult to get some to change. Although I understand what you are saying about this special instance where you are acquiring specific "shop" flies, for model or comparison purposes, I would not advise beginners to do it. Most shop flies are not as good as they should/could be.  Some of the photos and instructions in various books are not a great deal of help either. Often showing "demonstration" or "display" flies, which perhaps look prettier to an unschooled eye. Most professional dressers, and all the good amateurs, are aware of this, but apparently bow to circumstances forced upon them by others in many cases.  Quite a few anglers seem to buy flies with more material in them as well. Good sparse well tied flies are often ignored for some bushy specimen which looks likes "more for their money".  Strange idea, but very widespread. I have yet to see any natural fly with two hundred concentrically ordered legs ! It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I don’t believe there is ONE correct way to tie even a "standard" pattern, IMO, most flies sold tend to be over dressed. This makes for a "pretty" fly, but one that, I feel, is usually less effective. This applies to all the flies offered in my area except for one shop. This shop buys from a VERY talented local tier who can mass produce, what I consider to be, extremely high quality flies. They get $2.50 per fly although the other shops in the area sell their flies from $.95 to $1.50. I sometimes buy specific flies from this shop that I especially like the look of, to use as a model and to analyze how the tier achieved this look. Willi

Response:

It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material !

That leaves the question of how does a beginner decide what are good flies? I don’t have an answer. Willi

Response:

It invariably takes the same amount of time to dress a good fly, as a bad one, in fact good flies are usually quicker to tie, as they involve less material ! TL MC

 Is that why my flies take so long to make?  I thought it was because I superglued my fingers to the vise.      Frank "sparse means only half a chicken" Reid

Response:

You get what you pay for. This is a phrase that is widely tossed around and is applied to everything that is offered for sale. Although there is SOME truth to this saying, people relying on this advice only, are going to make many bad purchases. Buying based solely on price is a foolish way to purchase anything.

Especially if you equate "expensive" with "high quality", which is the gist of the saying. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

So Mike, when are we going to see your "In the Beginning" series of books, replete with Connorisms and anecdotes??? BTW, if anyone knows a source of Starling feathers off-the-skin, my wife was agast when I went to buy a skin with the little head looking back. — Wayne (credit card in hand waiting to buy the first signed copy) To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

Absolutely. Pure grain alcohol will get you just as drunk as the finest scotch. Cheaper is better, all else equal. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Although this question is phrased, IMO, better than most, i.e., "Any experience with….?" rather than "Is "X" (Item, but generally brand) any good?", it non-the-less seems to ask, "Are these flies any good?" and brings up an answer/idea not covered by any of the answers I’ve seen.   First, let’s get some math out of the way, and these are generalities, not absolutes:  Modern tyers who discuss such matters in their writing, ala Gierach, seem to average between 12 and 24 flies an hour, depending on pattern, so let’s say 18 an hour.  Now, the retail price varies greatly, so let’s simply say 1.50US average.  Let’s also use a 50-percent gross to the fly shop, so the wholesale cost is .75US. That means 18 per hour at .75US each, for a total of 13.50US a hour total.  A grocery store I passed this morning had a sign that said, "Help Wanted – 9.25 an hour to start."  Add in materials, and you’ll quickly see that you’ll likely not see anyone who "made a fortune" tying flies.  Even if you adjust the numbers used upward, it still isn’t a highly-paid career.   The point of the above?  Well, mainly, to show that fly-tying isn’t a "get rich" business for the "money-hungry" regardless of what retail purchasers pay.  The cost is almost all based on two factors – the first, the cost of labor (well, the overall production costs, with labor being the lion’s share – John may be a wonderful guy, and an excellent tyer, and I would suspect he’d readily tell you that neither he, nor Archie Best, etc., is the best possible tyer in the US, much less the world), and the second factor, desired markup at retail – which brings us to the second issue – the retail purchaser. A frequently-asked question by "newbies," on or off ROFF, and in many sports/hobbies/etc., is, "How good is this?"  And while there are always a variety of answers, ranging from "Good" to "Bad" (phrasing also varies greatly, as well <G).  However, IMO, the "answer" should be questions: "How good do you want and/or need, how much are you willing to pay at what return, are ascetics alone important to _you_, etc.?"  This is why I liked the poster’s phrase, "Any experience with…"   IMO, people have become much too concerned with what others think. People are "self-deprecating" toward gear that they find perfectly serviceable, almost like they are ashamed of it, and to me, being ashamed requires a personal feeling of improper behavior and a feeling of a need to "make it right."  If your gear does what _you_ want it to do, and _you_ like it, be it a 20.00US combo or 10,000.00US of top-of-the-line "maker’s art" gear, it is "good" for/to you – there is no way to argue with that, period, EOD.  There is nothing wrong with asking the experiences of others when a purchase is contemplated, especially when an item might have unknown property(s) not readily inspected (For example, mail-order waders), but IMO, if you feel it to be "good," then it is, and if you think it "bad" then it is.   Not to be harsh, but IMO, this type of question smacks more of "validate my choice" rather than "help me decide."  If you are going to let others tell you what to think, just give someone your budget and ask them to get what _they_ want.  I would venture that this will almost never turn out well, regardless of the people involved or the budget.   As to things like flies, and again, not to be harsh, but we are talking about an item of such importance and of such little cost, overall, that if you can’t afford to try a few, you can’t afford the sport of FF’ing.  I realize that sounds contradictory with the above, but it is simple math – we can’t possibly be talking about more than 5-10.00US to try several, and while 10.00US is much more to some than others, if 10.00US is too much money to spend, period, you really shouldn’t be out "sporting."  Even if you _need_ the fish to eat, you are using the wrong method in FF’ing.  Therefore, I’m going to base my answer on the given that a few dollars are (safely) available.  Buy a couple/few, and if they work for you, the other factor being equal, then they are good – it really is that simple.  The other factor is the "lifespan" – if the math says the cheaper fly lasts  X fish, and the expensive one lasts Y fish, simple math will indicate the choice. HOWEVER, if you do catch a fish who complains about your gear, he’s mine – I have dibsies (and a roadshow ready)… TC, R

Response:

All very true Willi. Some shop flies have enough materials in them to dress three or more flies.  It is a common tendency for beginners  to apply too

Like Frank (except with Elmer’s , not superglue)I know I used too much material.  Hackle is a good example.  I selected the right size hackle from the saddle by measuring (good practice) but wound hackle until I had a nice tip left to tie down and clip off (bad practice).  Looking at photos of the fly I was tying I found many different approaches to the pattern.  Perhaps, only experience can get me to the right materials mix.  My experience with imported flys is much what Mike describes, more material than most local tyers use.  I also found quality inconsistant.  I have had some of these flys (English made) come apart on the first cast.  African made flys seem to be the worst, wrong materials, poorly tied.  Some of the drys I tried could not float with any amount of floatant. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

I buy my flies from local fly shops.  Shop #1, a relatively high-end place, sells them for $1.65 each, $17.95/dozen.  Shop #2, a relatively low-end shop, sells them for $0.99 each or $9.99/dozen.  I’ve recently moved to this area and haven’t bought flies yet for every hatch of the year.  Last August, when the Trico’s were hatching, I bought several Trico patterns from both shops. It is possible that Chinese- or Indian-tied flies would be priced lower, but quality would be an unknown.  The only way to find out would be to buy some and fish them–if they’re a good deal, order more. Tom G tying your own is cheaper on a per fly basis, but you’ll end up with 100 times the number of flies…

Response:

It depends on why they are cheap.  If the price is a result of the cheaper labour in the country of origin, they may be comparable, or indeed in some cases even better than more expensive flies. If inferior materials, hooks, etc. have been used, or badly trained dressers have produced them, then they will be inferior. The only way to find out if any of the above applies, is to buy some and see.  Also, buying one lot of flies from China or India is not sufficient grounds for offering opinions on the relative quality of others from those countries. In many cases commodities which are considerably cheaper than others are of inferior quality. This is however not always so. The price of many goods is completely independent of any perceived quality, or otherwise, and is not a suitable criteria for determining it. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Response:

I’ve tried flies from just about everywhere. Domestic, China, Taiwan, Europe, etc. I can’t tell any difference in them. I like to sautee them in butter and garlic but i’ve also tried them with SOS and IMHO it really doesn’t make any diiference where the country of origin was. I haven’t found that the imported ones are any cheaper though.

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Like others have indicated, there is a wide range of quality out there. There are reasonably good quality flies that are imported from places like India and China. In fact, most flies sold in the U.S. are imported. This just makes sense.  The biggest "cost" in the construction of a fly is the labor and labor in the U.S. is relatively expensive. Some importers, like Umqua ?, have well trained tiers and fairly high quality standards. Others import junk. This is something that it is difficult for a beginner to evaluate. Although I tie my own, whenever I’m in a shop that sells flies, I like to peruse the offerings looking for new ideas and also looking at how the shops standard patterns are tied. It’s interesting to me (and also valuable for someone who ties) how much these standard patterns can differ. Different tiers use different materials and different quality of materials even on "standard" patterns but what is more interesting to me are the various different "styles" that each tier has. Even using the exact same materials, if you sit down 50 tiers and have each of them tie the same pattern, each will be different and most tiers would be able to pick out the fly he tied from the others. Although I don’t believe there is ONE correct way to tie even a "standard" pattern, IMO, most flies sold tend to be over dressed. This makes for a "pretty" fly, but one that, I feel, is usually less effective. This applies to all the flies offered in my area except for one shop. This shop buys from a VERY talented local tier who can mass produce, what I consider to be, extremely high quality flies. They get $2.50 per fly although the other shops in the area sell their flies from $.95 to $1.50. I sometimes buy specific flies from this shop that I especially like the look of, to use as a model and to analyze how the tier achieved this look. Willi

Response:

Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

Response:

Cheap stuffs absorbs turkey fat and gets soggy before the gibblets are ready. Thems stuffs have gibblets in ‘em someo tha times but can’t rely onit. Deep fried turkey is bests when the stuffs is cooked in a pot on tha stove.  Somertimes youse can get stovetoper stuffs mix and avoid the turkey altogether. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

You get what you pay for.

Response:

Some of the flies made overseas are excellent, others are abominations and would not even make it to a K-Mart blister pack.  The quality of these flies varies in direct proportion to quality of the materials and the training and quality control of the manufactury.  I’ve seen flies that Mustad has made in the Philipines and I wouldn’t fish with them. They are too good.  They should be mounted and used as examples of how to build a fly.    My only suggestion is to buy a half a dozen flies from a manufacturer and test them out.  Inspect them under a magnifying glass, checking for the wraps and proportions, drop them in a pan of water for a half and hour and then give them a few casts in the yard.  If they seem to hold together and all checks out, you can probably, safely, buy more.  Caveat emptor.  I’ve seen flies made with water-soluable glues and dyes.    One of my favorite sources of flies in bulk is the UK.  There is a cottage industry there that ties for profit.  The prices are dirt cheap and the flies are normally way above average quality. Still, one must always use the first test explained above even when buying from a "quality" dealer.  Buy a magazine like "Flyfishing and Flytying" from the UK at one of these big bookstores.  Check the classifieds.  Its well worth the price for a long term fly buying solution short of making your own (which, as we all know is the cheapest way to get flies;-).  Also, peruse your local fly shops.  Quite often they have good flies at reasonable prices.                 Frank Reid Some fella told me using flies made in China or India would save me a big money. Any experience with such stuffs? I believe the expensive must has its reason to be expensive. Right?

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Question:

I wanna be the "second person." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  - $49/ night first person + $9/night for second person

Response:

Do come. I need to meet the bozo who’s ruining my good name…  <G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bellows Get to Bainbridge and Ill drive the rest of the way. My Caravan can carry lots of gear and people. Dave i’ll check my schedule to see if i can make it, although you really couldn’t have picked someplace further from my house in washington state <G.  let us know what dates you decide on and then i can make a decision. cb

Response:

Do come. I need to meet the bozo who’s ruining my good name…  <G

hey… i’ll be there for the 16th and 17th. chris

Response:

Bob 11/16-21 time frame looks good to me as do your ideas for rolling tour/fishing.  Dean Brown and Keith Stonebraker sound like great additions, . . . hell we probably could make this a "for credit" offering at ROFF University. For anyone considering this miniclave . . . The cast of characters is shaping up as classic.  The Willowa/Blue Mountain areas are very special. The Grande Ronde offers a realistic shot at a steelhead. This was birthplace of the Apaloosa and the citadel of the best calvery the world has ever known, Chief Joseph’s Nez Pierce homeland. This is an incredibly beautiful part of the old West. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So far, Dave Snedeker, JR, and Scott Bellows have at least tentavely committed. George Brown(Dean Emeritus of OSU College of Forestry), who I owe a steelhead trip, has said he is available to participate Nov. 2&3 and during the period Nov.14-21.  I would like to take the opportunity to have him as an added forestry education resource, so would like to plan the shindig around his availability.  I personally prefer sometime in the 11/16-21 time frame.  Keith Stonebraker, who was called by Trey Combs( in one of his classic books on steelhead flyfishing & flies) the pioneer of floating line steelheading on the Clearwater & Snake Rivers, has said he would like to join the festivities.  Keith is also a past commissioner of the Idaho Dept of Fish & Game, and one of the finest flycasters it has been my priviledge to observe.

Response:

I know that I said that the dates would be set based on what the majority of those who had committed before10/23 desired, but I can see that waiting that long won’t work, as I have been underwhelmed by independant input.  People need something relatively firm to shoot for.  Thus I am proposing the following: 11/16 – meet just prior to noon in La Grande, introductions & grab a quick bite, start forestry tour heading towards Enterprise.  Dinner & overnight in Enterprise. 11/17 – resume tour after breakfast arrive in Troy early afternoon,  eat & check in then commence fishing. 11/18, 19 or till whenever people want to go home – catching summer steelhead. I will stick with that unless that won’t work for the majority of those who want to attend. Please get me your committment and accomodation needs ASAP so I can start setting it up & be sure of getting accomodations.  Email me at flies, etc. for Grande Ronde summer runs, or if you need my phone# and/or snail mail address for making arrangements  . Bob Weinberger

Response:

This mini clave/forestry tour is shaping up as a winner. The rivers in the area are first rate and look to be in reasonable condition. My offer for a lift from the Seattle area to the Clave is still open. I know there are some lurkers and regs out there who haven’t spoken up yet. If you are a newby you should know that ROFF claves are open to all, and there is no better way to meet other ROFFers. You will find a group of gentleman and see that the political bull goes out the window during claves. If you are new to the Northwest, I can assure you that this clave will intro you to country it took me a decade to connect with.  If you are from out of the PNB, why not consider using up some of those frequent flyer miles and flying into Seattle or Portland for an end of fall Steelhead fandango on the Grand Ronde. Dave

Response:

The Forestry tour/steelhead miniclave is firm for 11/16-19 (or longer for those who wish to stay longer). Those who have indicated that they will attend are: Dave Snedeker J T Russell (JR) Scott Bellows C Bellows (Bellows) George Brown Keith Stonebraker Myself with Chris Fanning (Padishar Creel) a possible. I’m leaving for Elk hunting tomorrow and will be returning NLT the afternoon of 10/29. Upon return I intend to reserve our accomodations.  Please confirm your attendance and get me your needs for accomodations by the time I return ( single or share a room in Enterprise 11/16. single, share a 2 person room, or share a multi person cabin in Troy 11/17-?). So far only JR has sent me the info. I will be sending directions to meeting place etc. to all confirmed attendees when I get back fm elk hunting. Ken Janik, I know that you were interested in a forestry tour & steelhead fishing, but I haven’t heard from you. There’s a great run this year & water conditions remain perfect. Bob Weinberger

Response:

I’m leaving for Elk hunting tomorrow and will be returning NLT the afternoon of 10/29. Upon return I intend to reserve our accomodations.  Please confirm your attendance and get me your needs for accomodations by the time I return ( single or share a room in Enterprise 11/16. single, share a 2 person room, or share a multi person cabin in Troy 11/17-?). So far only JR has sent me the info. I will be sending directions to meeting place etc. to all confirmed attendees when I get back fm elk hunting. Ken Janik, I know that you were interested in a forestry tour & steelhead fishing, but I haven’t heard from you.

Yes, I’m interested, but I most likely won’t know if I can make it until the week of.  Don’t worry about accomodations for me, if I can make it I’ll take care of myself. Thanks,       – Ken — "The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness.  You have to catch it yourself."      -Ben Franklin

Response:

Hello Bob Yes Im coming. Accomodations 11/16, if someone else would like to share a room Id go with that. Otherwise, a single. ie Im flexible. 11/17-18, like to share the multi person cabin. Thanx Dave

Response:

I have received several requests to conduct a forestry tour (1-2days) and, since I am an avid flyfisherman and this is a flyfishing group, I propose that it be appended to a mini clave.  Dave Snedeker has volunteered to help set it up and proposes that it be aligned with steelheading on the lower Grande Ronde River.  At this point it would have to be in the month of Nov. – any dates except 3-4 days either side of Nov. 11 – son’s wedding. See my post to Dave dated today & titled "re: report on logging national forests" for additional information. I need your preferred dates, locations, accomodation needs and anything you particularly want to see ASAP if you want to participate in such an questions and if you need my phone# and snail mail address for making arrangements. Bob Weinberger

Response:

So far, Dave Snedeker, JR, and Scott Bellows have at least tentavely committed. George Brown(Dean Emeritus of OSU College of Forestry), who I owe a steelhead trip, has said he is available to participate Nov. 2&3 and during the period Nov.14-21.  I would like to take the opportunity to have him as an added forestry education resource, so would like to plan the shindig around his availability.  I personally prefer sometime in the 11/16-21 time frame.  Keith Stonebraker, who was called by Trey Combs( in one of his classic books on steelhead flyfishing & flies) the pioneer of floating line steelheading on the Clearwater & Snake Rivers, has said he would like to join the festivities.  Keith is also a past commissioner of the Idaho Dept of Fish & Game, and one of the finest flycasters it has been my priviledge to observe. I did some checking with the only restaurant & accomodations at Troy, Shilo Inn ( previously owned by the owner of the motel chain of the same name, but bearing no resemblance to any of his motels) – they have 3 rooms (sharing a common bathroom) w/ 2 beds each  above the restaurant – $49/ night first person + $9/night for second person. They also have 3 cabins that hold 4-6 people – example: cabin that holds 5-6, $85/night first person + $9/night for each additional person. There is also a small campground w/ hookups in Troy and several small unimproved (outhouses only) free campgrounds within a mile or two.  The restaurant has a limited bar selection, so I suggest you bring your own favorite libations. ( I, as mini-clavemeister reserve the right to sample all libations brought to determine their appropriateness for such a meeting.) I am leaning toward starting the first day mid-morning from La Grande. Doing a forestry tour while driving towards Wallowa or Enterprise. Overnight in either Wallowa or Enterprise. Continue forestry tour while driving towards Troy.  Arrive in Troy mid-afternoon, check-in, & start fishing. Fish next day or two as desired. That’s just my first cut – anyone with other ideas please speak out. (Note: those needing licenses or steelhead tags – 1 or 3 day license & steelhead tags avail.- will need to get them before heading to Troy.  Those from WA would not need to get an OR out of state license if they don’t want to- the WA border is only 6 mi. below Troy and that also has good water.) The nearest airport to La Grande is Pendleton – an hour away from La Grande, 3.5 hrs from Troy. With enough notice I could get people to & from the airport if needed.  Anyone just interested in the fishing portion could fly into Lewiston/Clarkston & rent a car for the 1-1.5 hr drive to Troy. Please let me know your preferred dates and accomodation needs ASAP so I can start setting it up & be sure of getting accomodations.   I will set it up for the dates the majority, of those committing prior to 10/23, chooses. With the fishing as good as its been and elk hunts going on in adjacent hunt units during the proposed time frame, we’ll need to move quickly to be assured of rooms or cabins. Since this is a short notice mini-clave I am not planning for a raffle, hats or tee shirts,etc. if you need my phone# and/or snail mail address for making arrangements. Bob Weinberger

Response:

So far, Dave Snedeker, JR, and Scott Bellows have at least tentavely committed. George Brown(Dean Emeritus of OSU College of Forestry), who I owe a steelhead trip, has said he is available to participate Nov. 2&3 and during the period Nov.14-21.  I would like to take the opportunity to have him as an added forestry education resource, so would like to plan the shindig around his availability.  I personally prefer sometime in the 11/16-21 time frame.  Keith Stonebraker, who was called by Trey Combs( in one of his classic books on steelhead flyfishing & flies) the pioneer of floating line steelheading on the Clearwater & Snake Rivers, has said he would like to join the festivities.  Keith is also a past commissioner of the Idaho Dept of Fish & Game, and one of the finest flycasters it has been my priviledge to observe.

i’ll check my schedule to see if i can make it, although you really couldn’t have picked someplace further from my house in washington state <G.  let us know what dates you decide on and then i can make a decision. cb

Response:

Bellows Get to Bainbridge and Ill drive the rest of the way. My Caravan can carry lots of gear and people. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ll check my schedule to see if i can make it, although you really couldn’t have picked someplace further from my house in washington state <G.  let us know what dates you decide on and then i can make a decision. cb

Response:

Question:

I am wondering what type of experiences people have had fishing smallmouth in the Quetico in early September.  We have a group who has gone on several spring trips thinking about a fall trip.  Several of us are fly fishermen, so in particular, I’m wondering if the fish use shallow areas this time of year or if they begin to go deep. Thanks Peter Jonas Iron Mountain, MI

Response:

I am wondering what type of experiences people have had fishing smallmouth in the Quetico in early September.  We have a group who has gone on several spring trips thinking about a fall trip.  Several of us are fly fishermen, so in particular, I’m wondering if the fish use shallow areas this time of year or if they begin to go deep.

        They are still deep in early Sept. Don’t forget they don’t care about the air temp., they care about the water temp. And by the end of Aug. the water is as warm there as it gets. Mornings and evenings might still be okay though. But otherwise think late Sept., early Oct. tgb

Response:

Question:

I like the deep diving ff shad in the crawdad pattern,but day in and day

out the tube rules for me,in stained water I like a smoke colour with red fleck and in clear water the salt&pepper has worked great,I’ve been fishin smallies here in Ont. for years and there’s nothin like it!use light tackle and really enjoy it.Hope it helps and good luck                

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I finally found a place fairly close to go fishing for smallies. What’s some good bait’s to try? Thanks,  Bill

Response:

This is a river (Nottoway) SW of Richmond , Va. Exactly what kind of tube jigs are everyone referring to? For large mouth, I got rid of everything I had except plastic worms and a few top water baits. The only tube jigs I,m familiar with are the small ones for Crappie fishing. Thanks,  Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – River or lake?? it does make a big difference..also region… THAT"S WHAT DICK SAID * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Exactly what kind of tube jigs are everyone referring to Thanks,  Bill.

I can not speak for everyone here but the tube jigs that I am referring to are the phenix tubes. If you would like to order some you can contact a friend of mine. He can be reached at phone number  1-519-766=hook(4665) his name is ray, he has allowed me to post this and is willing to ship to whom ever wants the best tubes money can buy.

Response:

This is a river (Nottoway) SW of Richmond , Va. Exactly what kind of tube jigs are everyone referring to? For large mouth, I got rid of everything I had except plastic worms and a few top water baits. The only tube jigs I,m familiar with are the small ones for Crappie fishing.

Tube jigs are manufactured by many outfits.  You can fish them on the bottom by inserting a lead head jig hook into them or fish them off the bottom via a Carolina rig with styrofoam packed into the jig and a plain hook threaded into it (or use a floating jighead).  In smaller sizes they can also be fished a fixed distance under the surface by using a float. Mepps Aglias always worked well for me too.  You need to learn how to fish them in different depths and to read the water.  Having the spinner rise up towards the surface at the end of the swing as your line tightens and to be able to place your lure so that this happens right as the spinner is near good-looking structure is an effective method.  Most people just toss out spinners and retrieve them blindly which is an inefficient method of fishing with spinners.  Then, convinced of their ineffectiveness, they relegate spinners to a lonely spot in the tackle box.   A small 4" plastic worm in pumpkinseed, chameleon. motor oil-fleck, june bug (you get the idea, drab earth tone colors – though sometimes chartreuse and white are the hot tickets) drifted under a float works well too. If you are drifting along with the current in a canoe or boat you don’t need a float just let the line out and watch for strikes. I would suggest you consider trying to learn to fly fish for them if your river is wadable or if you have a boat (though I definitely feel wading is infinitely more interesting). You won’t need great casting skills or finesse (generally speaking) and it’s a whole lot of fun.  An inexpensive setup from KMart or Cabelas will be sufficient.   Learning to read the water, not choice of lure will help you the most however in catching the fish in my opinion. Mu Young Lee Ann arbor, MI  USA

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This is a river (Nottoway) SW of Richmond , Va. Exactly what kind of tube jigs are everyone referring to? For large mouth, I got rid of everything I had except plastic worms and a few top water baits. The only tube jigs I,m familiar with are the small ones for Crappie fishing.

 I know this place Bill . I suggest a 1/4 oz , tandem ( gold colorado , silver willow ) , white spinnerbait with a split tail trailer . I also suggest a pearl super fluke on a 4/0 gamakatsu hook . And the key to both of the baits is to remember that there is current and present your lure with it .

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Thanks for your help, I’ll definitely try your suggestions.  Thank again, Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a river (Nottoway) SW of Richmond , Va. Exactly what kind of tube jigs are everyone referring to? For large mouth, I got rid of everything I had except plastic worms and a few top water baits. The only tube jigs I,m familiar with are the small ones for Crappie fishing.  I know this place Bill . I suggest a 1/4 oz , tandem ( gold colorado , silver willow ) , white spinnerbait with a split tail trailer . I also suggest a pearl super fluke on a 4/0 gamakatsu hook . And the key to both of the baits is to remember that there is current and present your lure with it .

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I finally found a place fairly close to go fishing for smallies. What’s some good bait’s to try? Thanks,  Bill

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Try tube jigs ,I like deep diving bomber crankbaits(model A) in baby bass color.They work the best in some current. Crank them as slow as possible this time of year and hold on.I just caught a five pounder my biggest ever on 11-28-99 using this pattern.

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River or lake?? it does make a big difference..also region… THAT"S WHAT DICK SAID * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I am going to have to get some of these Tube Jigs I keep reading about here. My brother had a few last summer and they were catching where nothing else was. However, He did catch a 6 1/2 lb Smallmouth last spring. On a white small sized crank bait he found about two weeks before! I was extremely jealous! John Diel www.2stupiddogs.net Oklahoma Fishing Reports and More!

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Question:

On the stream: * What is your normal procedure once you hit the stream? * How long does it take you to get a fly on the water? (ignoring the amount   of time you take to study the water) Leaders: * Do you usually store a leader on your reel with the line? * With knotless leaders, is the the tippet considered part of the leader?   (I presume that it is but have never seen it stated.) * If so, (or with finished knotted leaders) how many flies will you   change (how many inches of tippet clipped) before you add more tippet? Casting: * When is the "proper" time to let line out when false casting (to extend   the line to the distance you wish to cast to)?  I do it instinctively now   but none of the books I’ve read, nor the few videos I’ve watched, have   brought up the subject at all.   _Rich_

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Good questions. I generally hike into the stream wiht my rod assebeled but not strung. Streamside, this forces me to go slow and take some time to watch the water.  My rod/reel choice is often dictated by the wind conditions. Once, I determine what fly to fish, I’ll string the rod, replace the tippet (I use Braided Leaders), tie on a start.  My braided leaders generally stay on the reel. The process takes about 10 minutes if I go slowly enough. My tippets for dry fly action is generally 5x 30" to 36" long, 24" of 5x for wets,  and 18" of 4 or 3x for streamers.  I get good turnover with these legnths on Orvis braided 5x or 6x leaders of 9 or 12 ft. I’ll fish a tippet down to about half of the original legnth if I can get the drift I need. What’s proper is probably what works.  I feed line for an initial cast on both the backcast and forward false casts, hopefully leaving enough line to shoot if I’m fishing more than 40 feet away. I’m looking forward to other responses. jg

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On the stream: * What is your normal procedure once you hit the stream? * How long does it take you to get a fly on the water? (ignoring the amount   of time you take to study the water)

My procedure depends somewhat on the type of water.  For Spring Creeks / Mountain Streams (my favorite) I will string up at the car and then take my time hiking to the stream when I am within 50 yards or so.  As a rule I try never to step in the water if at all possible and move as silently in the shadows as possible.  Wild Trout require this stealth.  If there are few trees or other cover, then I will crawl.  Once at the water, I almost always look for opportunities before casting.  Exceptions would be when I know that I will be fishing blind with nymphs/streamers or when the water is extremely off color. Leaders: * Do you usually store a leader on your reel with the line?  

I generally roll the leader/tippet right around the reel in as large a loop as possible.  I’ve tried leader wallets, etc.  and I think they’re too much hassle.  I tend to hit at least a bass impoundment 3 to 4 times per week and like to whip out the old 7 wt quickly and not have to unravel my leader.  Also, if you’re fishing for bass/saltwater species etc., then you’ll be using 2x-0x leaders/tippet and it takes punishment really well.  Smaller leader requires more care.  I do cover up to protect from sunlight with a neoprene cover. * With knotless leaders, is the the tippet considered part of the leader?  Yes.  The latter 2 ft or so is the tippet. * If so, (or with finished knotted leaders) how many flies will you   change (how many inches of tippet clipped) before you add more tippet?

I will add more tippet material after about 18 in (of 24 in) is used up.  This is really loose though.  If the quarry is not leader shy…then I’ll wait longer.  If you wait too long to add the proper tippet, however, then you won’t match up well with the leader material and the fly won’t turn over smoothly.   Casting: * When is the "proper" time to let line out when false casting (to extend   the line to the distance you wish to cast to)?  I do it instinctively now   but none of the books I’ve read, nor the few videos I’ve watched, have   brought up the subject at all.

If false casting is REALLY required then get the line out any way you feel comfortable with.  Forward or backward both is my preference, but I prefer shooting forward. K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

Get Dick Brown’s book "Bonefish Fly Patterns". It will be a great help to you. Good Luck!

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Hello all, can anyone suggest the flies I should use while fishing for Bonefish in the Carribbean in late June??  (Esp. the easiest ones to tie) Thanks in advance. Eric Meier

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Hello all, can anyone suggest the flies I should use while fishing for Bonefish in the Carribbean in late June??  (Esp. the easiest ones to tie) Thanks in advance. Eric Meier

Crazy Charlies are the most popular and simple patterns. I would tie pearl, gold, root beer, olive and pink. Use size mostly #4/6 in Mustad 3407 or 34007 hooks. Use #6/8 in Tiemco 800S or 811S hooks as they run a little bigger than Mustad. No eyes for Turtle grass bottoms. Bead chain eyes on some and chrome lead eyes on others for deeper sand bottoms or tide currents. Try to get a guide. You can call me at 800/4000FLY. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

A news item in Seattle this week — Whirling Disease has come to Washington waters.  The Grand Ronde River in the southeast corner of the state has been found to contain infected fish.

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A news item in Seattle this week — Whirling Disease has come to Washington waters.  The Grand Ronde River in the southeast corner of the state has been found to contain infected fish.

Hi This is certainly bad news.  Unfortunately this disease will probably take a lot longer to get rid of than it took to get it; if ever. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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A news item in Seattle this week — Whirling Disease has come to Washington waters.  The Grand Ronde River in the southeast corner of the state has been found to contain infected fish.

Does anyone know of any studies on the effects of WD on steelhead.  I fear the worst, but I would be interested in any facts anyone may have? Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

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I was very interested in this message, given any potential of this awful discease coming to Canada.

Several years ago–when the news about whirling disease first hit the Montana newstands, I remember feeling angry, and somewhat depressed… "here we go again," I thought: hominid over-popuation-polution run amok. suggested that the low rainbow numbers in Montana’s Madison river were more due to poor fish & game regulations than whirling disease. medicago was particularly critical of Dick Vincent, who is a local fish and game hero, for pioneering our "manage for wild trout" policy. medicago ventured the real reason for such low rainbow numbers was over-fishing and redd trompling during the spawing months in March and April. He also predicted that other river systems–that experience less intense fishing pressure than the Madison–would exhibit more resilient rainbow populations. I thought he was a fool.    The jury is still out. But perhaps I (we) were the fools after all. Whirling disease has been found in many drainages in Montana now, and as far as I know, only the Madison has suffered such a catastrphic population loss. Perhaps the combination of over-fishing AND whirling disease is just too much for the rainbows to handle. Perhaps we all need to fish a little bit less. I’m not taking sides here, just raising a few questions….. —

Response:

A news item in Seattle this week — Whirling Disease has come to Washington waters.  The Grand Ronde River in the southeast corner of the state has been found to contain infected fish.

I was very interested in this message, given any potential of this awful discease coming to Canada. Should anyone be aware of any accounts of this that can be substantiated (or along the border)I would like to know. Hopefully there will be no messages! Tight Lines Don Stokes Outdoor Columnist in Kingston Ont. area of CANADA

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A news item in Seattle this week — Whirling Disease has come to Washington waters.  The Grand Ronde River in the southeast corner of the state has been found to contain infected fish. This news really makes me sad.  Beautiful country and absolutely

wonderful river – my favorite in eastern Washington.  George is probably just as ticked, seeing as how this section of the G.R. is just a hop, skip and a jump from Asotin. Brett

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I was very interested in this message, given any potential of this awful discease coming to Canada. Several years ago–when the news about whirling disease first hit the Montana newstands, I remember feeling angry, and somewhat depressed… "here we go again," I thought: hominid over-popuation-polution run amok.

Text Deleted…    The jury is still out. But perhaps I (we) were the fools after all. Whirling disease has been found in many drainages in Montana now, and as far as I know, only the Madison has suffered such a catastrphic population loss. Perhaps the combination of over-fishing AND whirling disease is just too much for the rainbows to handle. Perhaps we all need to fish a little bit less. I’m not taking sides here, just raising a few questions….. —

In California we have had WD for decades. The Truckee River was where it was first noticed, over 40 years ago. If you go to that river you will see a lot of trout – rainbows and browns. One of my favorite places to fish in the Sierra mtns. has had WD for 18 years. It’s got a lot of trout. WD is a serious disease, and I hope the people involved continue to work towards a cure, but WD is not the end of fishing for trout. It’s not the doomsday disease some people make it out to be. Perhaps there are less trout than there would be without WD, but I still have fun and catch fish in WD positive waters. Darryl Hayashida

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A news item in Seattle this week — Whirling Disease has come to Washington waters.  The Grand Ronde River in Does anyone know of any studies on the effects of WD on steelhead.  I fear the worst, but I would be interested in any facts anyone may

Hmmm, I was just wondering the same thing.  The Grand Ronde has always had such a neat looking strain of steelhead, it would be sad to see them wiped out. -Burton

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Question:

discussing a trip to this area for some Atlantic Salmon fishing. We are going to fly into Portland Maine. Any info on best time, lodges, guides, patterns and equipment would be helpful.

1.  You should probably book with a fishing lodge in Labrador.  (You may be legally obliged to, because of lack of roads, rescue teams etc.)  Call the Newfoundland provincial tourist agency in St. John’s. 1B. There are also salmon lodges in Quebec and New Brunswick. 2.  Portland Maine seems the wrong place to start, i.e. has no road links to Labrador and may have no air links either.  You should probably start in either Montreal or St. John’s (on the island of Newfoundland;  Labrador is on the Canadian mainland) the two likely sources of air taxi links to camps in Labrador. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Starting with the correct spelling:-) Anyway, my Dad and I were discussing a trip to this area for some Atlantic Salmon fishing. We are going to fly into Portland Maine. Any info on best time, lodges, guides, patterns and equipment would be helpful. thanx in advance, Tom.

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