Question:

Zimbo I always have a keychain size compass. Im not the type to rely on a GPS in any case. I want my survival gear to be fail-safe reliable and small/lite enough so that its always there. Fact is that the only time Ive been lost in the woods was on my home island – within 3 miles of my house! (The second growth can be pretty dense sometimes under a double canopy, with the first canopy over your head, you can loose your bearing.) The keyring compass is also handy doing dead reckoning in metro areas. My .02 Dave

Response:

I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc. –Steve

Response:

 In my opinion.  If you have to rely on electronic "gadgets" to save your worthless behind in the bush you need to stay home.A better 300 bucks would be spent in a map reading class with a field trip for a test.Never substitute knowledge with gadgetry. —  Don Thompson Another of the Thompson Boys

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc. –Steve

Response:

I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places.

I have a GPS III+ and use it when kayaking, and an occasional hike. I have the Garmin US topo software and it has proven to be pretty reliable, at least away from metro areas where constant terraforming is underway. I also have the Roads and Recreation CD that I use on occasion when driving. — Charlie…

Response:

I have a XL12 I use to get myself back on top of the best crabbing spots. Other than that it’s a toy for entertainment. It’s great for cross country navigation but I would hate to depend on it as my primary methos for getting home!

Response:

So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc.

They’re great little toys (mine is anyway).   I know the exact coordinates of my house & office; I’ve checked it against my car speedometer, I even programmed in the coordinates of Foscoe, NC just for fun before my trip to the Spring Fling. That said, I have used it on occasion as a genuine navigational tool.   Each time in Maine (it’s really the only place I go with a decent chance of getting lost). I’ve saved a few waypoints to mark the turns on those logging roads, and once to mark some nasty rock outcroppings (or the route in between) on Moosehead Lake.   For a mere C-note, it’s a fun toy; but I haven’t gone the mapping software route yet. Joe F.

Response:

 Nah,  I dead recon, Go shanks Mare,Drink from vines,Wipe my behind with corncobs. grin —  Don Thompson Another of the Thompson Boys

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well shoot don…. why doncha tell us how you really feel? do you use a compass? drive a car? canteen? toilet paper? it’s all gadgetry… –waldo

Response:

: I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking : in and out of places. Away from work I’m a neo-luddite and try to avoid technology. But I agree with others in that I would not get a GPS in order to use it as your primary location finder. A compass and map should do that. Lately I’ve been using standard BLM maps (1:100K?) which aren’t the best but are cheap and have not gotten me lost…

the problem with gps’s when are that they do not give good readings on headings unless one is moving.  they are great for finding the exact spot you are standing on… but i would not be caught dead without a compass and only using a gps to get me out of trouble in the woods.  you really do need a compass in conjunction with a gps for the woods. chris

Response:

New Hardy  or a GPS? I took the Bougle. If I pick up a boat this summer to fish for stripers I’ll get one but otherwise I don’t a GPS. Paul P.S. See the hat.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paul Goodwin writes: I’ve thought about getting one for a few years but can’t seem to justify it. Interpretation:  "My wife won’t let me buy one."    <g Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

it’s all gadgetry… Toilet paper has saved my ass many times…

POTW! /daytripper (And it’s only Monday!)

Response:

Steve, I am a forester.  I make my living in the woods.  My dad a year ago thought a GPS would be a great gift for Christmas for me.  You’d think it would be, but I never use the thing.  I am comfortable enough with a map and compass to do what I need to do.  I imagine if i was a boater, trolling in a big place like Lake Ontario, I could use the thing, but in its box it stays. Peter Collin

Response:

it’s all gadgetry…

Toilet paper has saved my ass many times… — Charlie…

Response:

Paul Goodwin writes: I’ve thought about getting one for a few years but can’t seem to justify it.

Interpretation:  "My wife won’t let me buy one."    <g Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Paul Goodwin writes: I’ve thought about getting one for a few years but can’t seem to justify it. Interpretation:  "My wife won’t let me buy one."    <g

Mine won’t let me out the door without mine.      - Ken

Response:

Paul Goodwin writes: I’ve thought about getting one for a few years but can’t seem to justify it. Interpretation:  "My wife won’t let me buy one."    <g Mine won’t let me out the door without mine.      - Ken

lmao…. mine won’t *let* me have one <g waldo

Response:

Steve, Take a look at the new eMap from Garmin.  Much smaller than the GPS III+ and is a perfect fit in the fishing vest.  As others have pointed out you can use it to save positions of favorite holes, locations, etc.  It should never be depended upon as your ultimate means of navigation. You can upload/download waypoints from other fisherman on new spots, parking locations, a whole plethora of fishing information.   For software, take a look at OziExplorer.  www.ozieplorer.com, Fugawi, www.fugawi.com or you can use the MapSource CD’s from Garmin. Good luck, Paul www.troutmaps.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc. –Steve

Response:

 In my opinion.  If you have to rely on electronic "gadgets" to save your worthless behind in the bush you need to stay home.A better 300 bucks would be spent in a map reading class with a field trip for a test.Never substitute knowledge with gadgetry. —  Don Thompson

well shoot don…. why doncha tell us how you really feel? do you use a compass? drive a car? canteen? toilet paper? it’s all gadgetry… –waldo

Response:

 If you have to rely on electronic "gadgets" to save your worthless behind in the bush you need to stay home.A better 300 bucks would be spent in a map reading class with a field trip for a test.Never substitute knowledge with gadgetry. do you use a compass? drive a car? canteen? toilet paper?

Gosh, perhaps in retrospect I was a bit too fast on the trigger when I killfiled Donny boy a few days ago when I was weeding out cross-posters. My apologies. And, BTW, Don, if you have to rely on prescription "gadgets" to save your worthless sex life you need to get out more. –Steve

Response:

I’ve thought about getting one for a few years but can’t seem to justify it. The one time I wish I had one I was in a friends boat on the Merrimack River. In a matter of minutes we went from clear shies to <50′ visibility. Since we knew where we were, had a chart and a compass we were able to get back across. We then anchored within site of the ramp and watched the CG escort boats in for the next couple hours. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc. –Steve

Response:

You obviously need a tattoo ! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking

in

Response:

I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places.

Absolutely. First off, don’t use a GPS as a replacement for basic map and compass skills, and always try to improve upon your own intuitive navigation skills. That said, I have a collection of digitized USGS maps and DeLorme maps and will often download important waypoints into my GPS before heading out, and I certainly take GPS readings at points of discovery in the field so I can later upload them and see exactly where I was. In Oregon, I generally use a GPS to find shorter routes into/outof an area. With so many trees and hills, it is easy to get "turned around" and stray. On a trip with my wife in Alaska, we pre-marked where all the creeks within a 5 mile radius of our houseboat in Prince William Sound (Port Gravina) were, and when we buzzed around in a 15-hp motorboat, we were constantly amazed at how we could *not* "see" or intuit where a creek was flowing into the bay, but the GPS led us to each creek mouth and thousands of salmon without fail. I also use a GPS during spawning/habitat surveys with the State and Federal agencies.  It is also becoming very handy to be able to report things to the state/federal agencies when accompanied by a lat/long. I own the Garmin 12XL, and recommend Garmin simply because you can hold and operate them with one hand because the buttons are up top. Buy a simple cable and some mapping software, and you’re set. Thomas Gilg

Response:

I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc.

Yes, I have a GPS and use it regularly.  Magellan 315 if I remember correctly. They are not toys and can be invaluable if used properly.  Properly being IN ADDITION to a map and compass. A GPS is NOT a substitute for map skills. I have no real advice on mapping software, I just use any standard topographic maps with lat/long  markings on them. I almost always have my GPS on me when hiking (especially when alone).  Get to the trailhead and mark a waypoint.  Get to any remotely confusing section and set another waypoint.  With a good map and reasonable skills, it’s "nearly" impossible to get lost.   One thing to keep in mind is that in thick forests you can lose contact with all satellites and your GPS becomes useless.  You have to find a clearing to get a reading. I also find a GPS useful when driving off-road.  I spend a lot of time looking for old fire lookout stations when all you have is the coordinates on an old map.  Finding the lookouts is tricky, but navigating your way back out is tough too.  My GPS has saved me hours of driving around lost in the woods. My $0.02, take it for what it’s worth,      - Ken

Response:

I have been with Tom Brown when he has used his GPS III+ to see where we were on Little Wilsons or to determine the elevation of a point.  I’d like to have one simply because it provides an interesting reference.  I like it…and, I think it could help locate points or distances.  I say git you one…and let’s try it out over the other side of Fontana on Eagle Creek or Enkaneetlah one weekend. …btw…package just arrived.  whew, i was beginning to worry.  i’m planning on using it this friday with op and walt on one of my favorite backwoods streams… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc. –Steve

Response:

I was wondering if any of you backwoods fly fishermen use a GPS for hiking in and out of places.

No, I prefer not to use them – see below. I’m not immediately in the market, but a handheld GPS is one of those "someday" toys on my list along with binoculars and a waterproof digital camera.

IMO, "toy" is the right word for most folks, and here’s why – if you are simply using it to track yourself, etc., fine, or as an "I’m curious" reference when the "lost" potential is either very low or the consequences of getting "lost" are minimal, sure, get one and "play." But if you are going into areas/situations where the potential for being truly _lost_ is high, with the associated perils, IMO, these should only be used as a additional aid, not a substitute for manual procedures with compass (manual instruments), maps, _two_ sources of time, and reference points.  The batteries can go, the unit can go down or be damaged, you could conceivably be out of "triangulation" reception (yes, I realize some use other than 3, and this is _unlikely_), etc.  If you going into such a situation, IMO, one _must_ know manual methods.  The main use I have had for them is bluewater sailing/boating, but again, only as a ready/"quick" reference, rather than the sole nav method. So, is a GPS helpful (to keep from getting lost, mark a good fishing hole, find or relocate the trail, etc)? What models do you recommend (how about the Garmin GPS III Plus for example)? What about mapping software? etc.

Helpful?  Sure, if you want to know _exactly_ where you are (well, within a few meters).  As to keeping from "getting lost," that depends on one’s propensity to "get lost" – i.e., if one can "get lost" in a city park, it would probably help, but if one can readily get in and out within a few miles, then it becomes the above-mentioned "quick ref."  IMO, with GPS, you buy features – the "system" used is the same, and you have no choice, ala "wireless" phones, ISPs, etc.  If you buy used, make sure it was a Y2K-prepared unit – some weren’t.  I personally prefer USGS Topos, etc. for maps, but that is strictly subjective.  IMO, learning to "read" the terrain is a necessary and interesting part of being outdoors, but again, YMMV. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —Steve

Response:

Question:

Not at all, the computer is built into the handle of my large arbor,  the modem is in the reel seat of my nine weight, and my telecopying staff doubles as a printer, and I only write this stuff on the fly. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

(don’t keep the knife in your chest-fly-box, you may fall and cut your tits)

LOL Many newsgroups go through cycles of on-topic, then a spark, then much nastiness, then a cool-down, then humor, then on-topic…… We appear to be in the humor stage. Regards, Jeff

Response:

If you wish to learn fillet trout, a very useful skill in life, there are several ways to do it, and two require a knife, grab a knife, then grab the trout, and cut it into bits, (don’t keep the knife in your chest-fly-box, you may fall and cut your tits) This applies to other things as well, and if certain gear you

Question:

There are a lot of flies we need for the Western Conclave.  I’m trying to tie my own.  I have to buy all sorts of different stuff just to tie a few flies of each pattern. Then an idea came to me.  Why doesn’t each person concentrate on one or two patterns and trade flies with other at the Conclave.  This will ad something to the conclave, because we will be fishing with the flies that our friends tied. I can tie a couple like the Montana Stone.  I tie other flies, but I want to trade my best fly that I can tie.  That’s it.  There are some others that I think are okay. I will tie a dozen Montana Stone for anyone that wants to trade. Here’s the complete list of flies that have been suggested by others here on ROFF and suggested web-sites for the area.  I will not have ever fly represented in my fly box.  There are a lot of them.  However, I would like to have as many as I can.  I know I will buy a lot, but it would be nice to be fishing with a fly the other ROFFians tied.  So here’s the list: Prince Nymphs, size 4-10 Montana Stone, size 6-10 Adams, size 10-20 Moose-Mane Adam, size 8-16 Adams, size 10-20 Grey Wulff, size 8-14 Grizzly Wulff, size 8-14 Royal Wulff, size 8-14 White Wulff, size 6-16 Ausable Wulff, size 6-16 Wolly Buggers, size 2-12 Wolly Worm, size 2-12 Joe’s Hopper, size 6-14 Dave’s Cricket, size 6-12 Muddler Minnows, size 2-14 Leach, size 4-8 Light Hendrickson, size 12-18 Dark Hendrickson, size 12-18 Blue Dun, dry size 12-18 Blue Dun, wet size 10-16 BWO, size 12-20 Light Cahill, size 10-16 Rubber Legs Henry’s Fork Hopper, size 8-12 Jacklin’s Hopper, size 8-12 Parachute Hopper, size 8-14 Henry’s Fork Cricket, size 6-16 Dave’s Hopper, size 4-12 Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear, size 8-16 Elk Hair Caddis (various body colors) also known as PM Caddis Montana Stone Nymph, size 14-18 Golden Stone, size 12-14 Western Bee, size 12-14 Western Coachman, size 12-14 Dragon Fly Dragon Fly Nymphs Midge Blue Dun, size 16-24 Trudes Green Caddis Emergers Colorado Caddis Nymphs Humpies of various colors, size 12-16 Brown Hackle Peacock, size 12-18 March browns PT Hymphs Stimulators Caddis:         Long Horn Sedge         Microcaddis         Green Sedge         Spotted Sedge (2 Species)         Little Sister Sedge         Black Dancer Stoneflies:         Giant Salmonfly         Golden Stone         Yellow Sally Mayflies:         Pale Morning Dun         Western Green Drake         Brown Drake         Grey Drake         Small Western Drake (flav)         Callibaetis — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are a lot of flies we need for the Western Conclave.  I’m trying to tie my own.  I have to buy all sorts of different stuff just to tie a few flies of each pattern. Then an idea came to me.  Why doesn’t each person concentrate on one or two patterns and trade flies with other at the Conclave.  This will ad something to the conclave, because we will be fishing with the flies that our friends tied. I can tie a couple like the Montana Stone.  I tie other flies, but I want to trade my best fly that I can tie.  That’s it.  There are some others that I think are okay. I will tie a dozen Montana Stone for anyone that wants to trade. Here’s the complete list of flies that have been suggested by others here on ROFF and suggested web-sites for the area.  I will not have ever fly represented in my fly box.  There are a lot of them.  However, I would like to have as many as I can.  I know I will buy a lot, but it would be nice to be fishing with a fly the other ROFFians tied.  So here’s the list: Prince Nymphs, size 4-10 Montana Stone, size 6-10 Adams, size 10-20 Moose-Mane Adam, size 8-16 Adams, size 10-20 Grey Wulff, size 8-14 Grizzly Wulff, size 8-14 Royal Wulff, size 8-14 White Wulff, size 6-16 Ausable Wulff, size 6-16 Wolly Buggers, size 2-12 Wolly Worm, size 2-12 Joe’s Hopper, size 6-14 Dave’s Cricket, size 6-12 Muddler Minnows, size 2-14 Leach, size 4-8 Light Hendrickson, size 12-18 Dark Hendrickson, size 12-18 Blue Dun, dry size 12-18 Blue Dun, wet size 10-16 BWO, size 12-20 Light Cahill, size 10-16 Rubber Legs Henry’s Fork Hopper, size 8-12 Jacklin’s Hopper, size 8-12 Parachute Hopper, size 8-14 Henry’s Fork Cricket, size 6-16 Dave’s Hopper, size 4-12 Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear, size 8-16 Elk Hair Caddis (various body colors) also known as PM Caddis Montana Stone Nymph, size 14-18 Golden Stone, size 12-14 Western Bee, size 12-14 Western Coachman, size 12-14 Dragon Fly Dragon Fly Nymphs Midge Blue Dun, size 16-24 Trudes Green Caddis Emergers Colorado Caddis Nymphs Humpies of various colors, size 12-16 Brown Hackle Peacock, size 12-18 March browns PT Hymphs Stimulators Caddis:         Long Horn Sedge         Microcaddis         Green Sedge         Spotted Sedge (2 Species)         Little Sister Sedge         Black Dancer Stoneflies:         Giant Salmonfly         Golden Stone         Yellow Sally Mayflies:         Pale Morning Dun         Western Green Drake         Brown Drake         Grey Drake         Small Western Drake (flav)         Callibaetis — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

May I suggest you regard flies at and below #18’s also Vern? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

Vern Exactly. I carry my tying stuff, and can tie about a dozen fishables an hour sober, about half that after one beer. Buy fancy stuff in the shops and  bum some fishables from me, whatever you like. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shoot man, just bring what ya got and bum the rest. Not counting the price of the hooks, I doubt if I have a couple of cents in any given fly.

Response:

Thanks. I’m going to bring as many flies as I can, some to trade, and bring extra cash for special flies.  I think I will also bring some of my fly tying stuff.  However, I need to get all my camping and fishing stuff into the car as well as anything else I want to bring. I also have a co-worker that wants to come.  I need to get all his camping and fishing stuff into the car.  The car will be very tight inside. I will try to talk my friend into bringing his truck.  There’s only one problem with that, I can’t drive his truck due to it not being altered for little people.  We were going to drive straight through and switch driving responsibilities.  If we take my car, he can always push the seat back but space will be limited. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Vern Exactly. I carry my tying stuff, and can tie about a dozen fishables an hour sober, about half that after one beer. Buy fancy stuff in the shops and  bum some fishables from me, whatever you like. Dave Shoot man, just bring what ya got and bum the rest. Not counting the price of the hooks, I doubt if I have a couple of cents in any given fly.

Before you buy.

Response:

[snipped] BTW, what are some good patterns/sizes for whitefish?

Anything that works for the trout will work for the whitefish…

Response:

Shoot man, just bring what ya got and bum the rest. Not counting the price of the hooks, I doubt if I have a couple of cents in any given fly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not just the time but the supplies.  Different types of flies require different types of hair, feathers, etc., etc.  And then it’s the issue of space when camping. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s not just the time but the supplies.  Different types of flies require different types of hair, feathers, etc., etc.  And then it’s the issue of space when camping. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Sorry about the blank I just fired off to this thread, wrong button. Vern, Why not set yourself up with a decent tying travel kit and tie what really working when you get there. Thats how I normally travel, and I seldom find myself lacking whatever bug is hot. It may be tough to find the time to tie in Ennis, I’d think the evenings will be filled with "social" activities. Does anybody know if the area waters get a little slow in the midafternoon? Before you buy.

alright to bring your fly tying gear with you.  On site fly tying instructions are free, even though we ordinarily charge legal fee rates of $175 an hour, we can take it out in trade with those N.C. legal beagles? I cannot begin to express the fly tying fun that awaits the serious fly tiers of Roff.  This Western Conclave is just the beginning of a great adventure!   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

Gee, thanks for the list, Vern. I’m planning to buy a half-dozen of each pattern and size over the counter from Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone.

Heresey!!!!  Well, if you, make sure that you don’t get princes in size 4-10, more like 10-16. Of course I have never fished with a size 4 prince and may just not know what I am talking about.  Perhaps you out of staters know something that we don’t up here Warren Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are a lot of flies we need for the Western Conclave.  I’m trying to tie my own.  I have to buy all sorts of different stuff just to tie a few flies of each pattern. Then an idea came to me.  Why doesn’t each person concentrate on one or two patterns and trade flies with other at the Conclave.  This will ad something to the conclave, because we will be fishing with the flies that our friends tied. I can tie a couple like the Montana Stone.  I tie other flies, but I want to trade my best fly that I can tie.  That’s it.  There are some others that I think are okay. I will tie a dozen Montana Stone for anyone that wants to trade. Here’s the complete list of flies that have been suggested by others here on ROFF and suggested web-sites for the area.  I will not have ever fly represented in my fly box.  There are a lot of them.  However, I would like to have as many as I can.  I know I will buy a lot, but it would be nice to be fishing with a fly the other ROFFians tied.  So here’s the list: Prince Nymphs, size 4-10 Montana Stone, size 6-10 Adams, size 10-20 Moose-Mane Adam, size 8-16 Adams, size 10-20 Grey Wulff, size 8-14 Grizzly Wulff, size 8-14 Royal Wulff, size 8-14 White Wulff, size 6-16 Ausable Wulff, size 6-16 Wolly Buggers, size 2-12 Wolly Worm, size 2-12 Joe’s Hopper, size 6-14 Dave’s Cricket, size 6-12 Muddler Minnows, size 2-14 Leach, size 4-8 Light Hendrickson, size 12-18 Dark Hendrickson, size 12-18 Blue Dun, dry size 12-18 Blue Dun, wet size 10-16 BWO, size 12-20 Light Cahill, size 10-16 Rubber Legs Henry’s Fork Hopper, size 8-12 Jacklin’s Hopper, size 8-12 Parachute Hopper, size 8-14 Henry’s Fork Cricket, size 6-16 Dave’s Hopper, size 4-12 Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear, size 8-16 Elk Hair Caddis (various body colors) also known as PM Caddis Montana Stone Nymph, size 14-18 Golden Stone, size 12-14 Western Bee, size 12-14 Western Coachman, size 12-14 Dragon Fly Dragon Fly Nymphs Midge Blue Dun, size 16-24 Trudes Green Caddis Emergers Colorado Caddis Nymphs Humpies of various colors, size 12-16 Brown Hackle Peacock, size 12-18 March browns PT Hymphs Stimulators Caddis: Long Horn Sedge Microcaddis Green Sedge Spotted Sedge (2 Species) Little Sister Sedge Black Dancer Stoneflies: Giant Salmonfly Golden Stone Yellow Sally Mayflies: Pale Morning Dun Western Green Drake Brown Drake Grey Drake Small Western Drake (flav) Callibaetis — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

Sorry about the blank I just fired off to this thread, wrong button. Vern, Why not set yourself up with a decent tying travel kit and tie what really working when you get there. Thats how I normally travel, and I seldom find myself lacking whatever bug is hot. It may be tough to find the time to tie in Ennis, I’d think the evenings will be filled with "social" activities. Does anybody know if the area waters get a little slow in the midafternoon?

Response:

Vern, Why not set yourself up with a decent tying travel kit and tie what really working when you get there.

I know Vern doesn’t drink, but I should point out that if the Western Clave is anything like the Eastern Claves, people will much too busy tying one on to have the time (or the hand-eye coordination) to tie one on. <g –Steve

Response:

It’s not just the time but the supplies.  Different types of flies require different types of hair, feathers, etc., etc.  And then it’s the issue of space when camping. — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Sorry about the blank I just fired off to this thread, wrong button. Vern, Why not set yourself up with a decent tying travel kit and tie what really working when you get there. Thats how I normally travel, and I seldom find myself lacking whatever bug is hot. It may be tough to find the time to tie in Ennis, I’d think the evenings will be filled with "social" activities. Does anybody know if the area waters get a little slow in the midafternoon?

Before you buy.

Response:

Vern, Why not set yourself up with a decent tying travel kit and tie what really working when you get there. I know Vern doesn’t drink, but I should point out that if the Western Clave is anything like the Eastern Claves, people will much too busy tying one on to have the time (or the hand-eye coordination) to tie one on. <g –Steve

______-  beans? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

Vern, Why not set yourself up with a decent tying travel kit and tie what really working when you get there. Thats how I normally travel, and I seldom find myself lacking whatever bug is hot. It may be tough to find the time to tie in Ennis, I’d think the evenings will be filled with "social" activities. Does anybody know if the area waters get a little slow in the midafternoon?

I’ll be bringing a travel kit, but more for fun than necessity. Most of my flies are general-type patterns that work well just about everywhere I’ve fished for trout, and I’ll be bringing plenty of extras. If there is a particular fly that is working especially well once I get there, I’ll just buy ‘em locally, or barter with other roffians; maybe even tie a few if they’re simple enough. BTW, what are some good patterns/sizes for whitefish? — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s the complete list of flies that have been suggested by others here on ROFF and suggested web-sites for the area.  I will not have ever fly represented in my fly box.  There are a lot of them.  However, I would like to have as many as I can.  I know I will buy a lot, but it would be nice to be fishing with a fly the other ROFFians tied.  So here’s the list: Prince Nymphs, size 4-10 Montana Stone, size 6-10 Adams, size 10-20 Moose-Mane Adam, size 8-16 Adams, size 10-20 Grey Wulff, size 8-14 Grizzly Wulff, size 8-14 Royal Wulff, size 8-14 White Wulff, size 6-16 Ausable Wulff, size 6-16 Wolly Buggers, size 2-12 Wolly Worm, size 2-12 Joe’s Hopper, size 6-14 Dave’s Cricket, size 6-12 Muddler Minnows, size 2-14 Leach, size 4-8 Light Hendrickson, size 12-18 Dark Hendrickson, size 12-18 Blue Dun, dry size 12-18 Blue Dun, wet size 10-16 BWO, size 12-20 Light Cahill, size 10-16 Rubber Legs Henry’s Fork Hopper, size 8-12 Jacklin’s Hopper, size 8-12 Parachute Hopper, size 8-14 Henry’s Fork Cricket, size 6-16 Dave’s Hopper, size 4-12 Gold Ribbed Hare’s Ear, size 8-16 Elk Hair Caddis (various body colors) also known as PM Caddis Montana Stone Nymph, size 14-18 Golden Stone, size 12-14 Western Bee, size 12-14 Western Coachman, size 12-14 Dragon Fly Dragon Fly Nymphs Midge Blue Dun, size 16-24 Trudes Green Caddis Emergers Colorado Caddis Nymphs Humpies of various colors, size 12-16 Brown Hackle Peacock, size 12-18 March browns PT Hymphs Stimulators Caddis:         Long Horn Sedge         Microcaddis         Green Sedge         Spotted Sedge (2 Species)         Little Sister Sedge         Black Dancer Stoneflies:         Giant Salmonfly         Golden Stone         Yellow Sally Mayflies:         Pale Morning Dun         Western Green Drake         Brown Drake         Grey Drake         Small Western Drake (flav)         Callibaetis

Gee, thanks for the list, Vern. I’m planning to buy a half-dozen of each pattern and size over the counter from Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Question:

Dustin, I don’t know how much time you have, but there is a place about a three or four hour drive north of Anchorage called Talkeetna.

(lots of good stuff snipped) Bill

Bill – I think Talkeetna is the best town I have ever encountered.  Anyhow, I was in that area last June, but unfortunately didn’t know about the Indian river, even though I had done a fair amount of research before the trip. I guess I missed a great side trip.  Nice to hear about it anyway. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Hello Anglers, I am going up to alaska on a cruise and am looking for places to fish within driving distance of Anchorage or as a shore excursion at either Juneau, Ketchikan, or Skagway.  Any ideas?? Dustin

Dustin, I don’t know how much time you have, but there is a place about a three or four hour drive north of Anchorage called Talkeetna. From Thursday to Sunday a train runs daily into the back country and will let you off anywhere along its’ route. It follows the Indian River(salmon, rainbows, dollys, grayling, and probably other species I didn’t personally catch) and the ride itself is beautiful. I would highly recommend this trip, to the point of excluding other options or extending your trip to include it. I spent 3 weeks in Alaska and if I went back, that is where I would go. We camped overnite in the "Canyon" section of the Indian River, the spot we pitched our tent was within 100 feet of the tracks. Aside from the occasional train, complete solitude. You could flyfish nude and have sex wherever you want, without fear of prying eyes. I mention this only because the solitude brought on those kind of thoughts. The grayling came to dries readily, and it was fairly easy to spot fish. This, in my opinion, is a must do, even if you have to rent camping gear. There is also Montana Creek(actually a river) near Talkeetna, where I C&R’d a five pound ‘bow’. South of Anchorage there are alot of great spots on the Kenai Peninsula. Skagway is a bust for fishing. Juneau & Ketchikan I couldn’t tell you about. If you want more info, e-mail me phone too if you’d like. Bill

Response:

Hello Anglers, I am going up to alaska on a cruise and am looking for places to fish within driving distance of Anchorage or as a shore excursion at either Juneau, Ketchikan, or Skagway.  Any ideas?? Dustin

Practically all the cruise ships have some spare time in most of the ports.  There will be an abundance of outfitters frequenting the ships wilh all type of wares including fishing trips.  They are usually short, overpriced, and usually in saltwater due to the schedule the cruise ships must maintain.  Don’t get me wrong, a cruise is a great way to see the southeast but a less than adequate way to fish it. Mac McCaskill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Anglers, I am going up to alaska on a cruise and am looking for places to fish within driving distance of Anchorage or as a shore excursion at either Juneau, Ketchikan, or Skagway.  Any ideas?? Dustin Practically all the cruise ships have some spare time in most of the ports.  There will be an abundance of outfitters frequenting the ships wilh all type of wares including fishing trips.  They are usually short, overpriced, and usually in saltwater due to the schedule the cruise ships must maintain.  Don’t get me wrong, a cruise is a great way to see the southeast but a less than adequate way to fish it. Mac McCaskill

I think Mac’s right.  I visited last summer, but not on a cruise.  There are places within driving distance of Anchorage, but it depends on what you mean by "driving distance".  For example, the Kenai Peninsula area is two-three hours each way, but that means a full (and long) day if you want to drive there, fish, say, the Russian River, and return to the ship.   I think it is Campbell Creek which runs right through Anchorage and has salmon runs – but which and when I don’t recall.  Depending on your time, you might want to contact a fly shop in Anchorage and see if a guide can be arranged through them.  There is a ton of stuff on the web about Alaska, so a few hours with your browser may get you some good information.  Finally, keep looking here, because I know there are folks on ROFF who know a lot about Alaska fishing. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Hello Anglers, I am going up to alaska on a cruise and am looking for places to fish within driving distance of Anchorage or as a shore excursion at either Juneau, Ketchikan, or Skagway.  Any ideas?? Dustin

Response:

Question:

In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

Since when does the success of a PhD depend on real-world relevance? JonCook. PS: As was pointed out, any complete population dynamics model would have     to take multiple-C+R into account if in fact it is not a linear relation.

Response:

I’ve caught fish is locations like the San Juan that have clearly been caught many times and they tend to not fight very hard. Is it a learned behavior? Possibly we are inadvertently building a strain of fish the survive multiple catch and release because they don’t fight very hard, leaving more reserves for in-stream survival subsequent to release. I don’t think it would take too many generations for this to begin to be noticed, unless its already happening and we all don’t remember the hard fighting fish of yesteryears. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population? In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.

One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw.   Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

Response:

Hmmm…had to take longer to revive???  The Missoulian (Missoula Montana) just ran an artical about the high water temps this summer (it’s very hot out here…94 degrees today) and the affects this has on fish recovery.  FW&P biologist would like you to not fish if the water temps. are above or close to 70 degrees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management. One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw. Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

Response:

I have the good fortune to live within a few miles of a small tailwater stream in New England.  The upper 1/2 mile is fly fishing only, catch & release year round. The next 3/4 mile downstream is catch & release, artificials only 7/1 to 12/31, and any method, 3 fish limit 1/1 to 6/30. These regs have been in place for more than 10 years.  Water temp seldom exceeds 60 deg. The stream is heavily stocked, and has a small poulation of native brook trout as well.  Studies by fisheries and wildlife indicate that 75% of the fish caught in the lower section are released.  Multiple catches are a way of life for both fish and fishermen.  This is a small, clear stream and dead fish are easily spotted. Very few dead fish are observed. The total seen amounts to way less than 1% of the 6500 or so trout stocked each year.  I understand that this is strictly anecdotal data, but this stream does offer a unique opportunity to observe the dynamics of a C&R area. This observation is offered only as general info on C&R mortality, and not intended to restart the "moral/ethical" debate over C&R. Tight lines!! George

Response:

Hmmmm!   This is an interesting bunch of statistics.  But I get the impression that they are not all that connected.  They are drawn from several sources (comparing apples and oranges?).   I don’t deny that a percentage of C&R’d fish perish, but the survival rates don’t come close to comparing.  Let’s say that only 70% of C&R’d fish survive — 0% of C&K’d fish survive!! So let’s leave this sort of thought process to the guys in the Ivory Towers.  It really doesn’t make that much difference to the man in the river except the accent the need for appropriate care in the releasing of fish.   There has been entirely too much ad hominem name-calling  between the the C&R and C&K factions.  I speak out in favor of killing those fish that will be eaten (I like trout) and releasing those that will not be eaten (I don’t like cleaning fish).  I do favor leaving the large, wild fish to breed, and eating only the small to medium size ones.  In stocked rivers with little or no breeding, I have much less qualms when I see a fisherman leaving with a stringer. I don’t like seeing, as I did on the coast where I grew up, are dozens and dozens of fish, many of which are inedible or unplatable. Neal G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /             |/   (         /|    –     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Seek personal peace at the end of a fly line.

Response:

: I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?   In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?

I wasn’t really concerned about ‘a particular’ fish in my original post — or even a small sampling of fish — except in how the possible change in mortality as exhibited in the small sample when spread across a larger number of fish could be used to possibly model population dynamics in C&R streams.  Certainly the C&R mortality and the number of C&R cycles would not represent the full population dynamics model, but might become a part of a larger model.  This larger model could then be a useful tool for developing effective management practices for some fisheries (selective harvest, restricted seasons, limited take, controlled fishing pressure, etc) — and that is what would be of interest to fishermen. In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

What about a title like — "Mortality of (pick a species that grows large – S. trutta, for example) in (pick several exotic geographic location — New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, etc.) when exposed to multiple C&R cycles".  Now, find somebody (read sucker) to fund the research — sell it as at least a 15-20 year project.  Recruit several of your favorite fishing buddies as long-term ‘graduate’ or ‘undergraduate’ assistants and disappear on the mother of all fishing trips. :^) PS: I thought all PhD’s were slow and painful deaths — even for the survivors! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

–             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Response:

I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Response:

Question:

I think Steve W asked about, or commented on weighting the bow for better tracking. The weight I use is the deep cycle battery, which weighs almost 70 lbs. That’s a lot of weight, more than most folks think of using, but it’s worked great. Bill Mack askedWhat did you do for the long connection from the fron of the boat to the motor?<< I used thick wire and connectors available from auto supply stores. Use at least 10 ga for 12 volt connections, I use 6 ga so I can use it with my 24 volt 70 lb thrust motor for real fast flowing water. Two deep cycle batteries up forward REALLY stabilize it. Hope this helps, sorry for the delay in replying. Fair winds and following seas, Pat in Pawtucket  RI

Response:

I am looking for an canoe/boat with a square stern for mounting an electric trolling motor and some type of keel that would allow it to track upstream in a moderate current without the bow being swept around to the rear by the current. Specifically I would be using this in the Muskegon River (in case some may be familiar). I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas. Anybody out there have any suggestions? CowboyMI – Steven W. There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode, nor a Cowboy that couldn’t be throwed….

Response:

Steve W wrote I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas.<< I use a 14′ fiberglass canoe in a similar situation, and sometimes even rivers flowing briskly. My electric motor is only 36 lbs of thrust (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put the deep cycle battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting. Fair winds and following seas, Pat in Pawtucket  RI

Response:

PatKapsner wroteI use a 14′ fiberglass canoe in a similar situation, and sometimes even rivers flowing briskly. My electric motor is only 36 lbs

of thrust (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put the deep cycle battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting.

I have tried putting ballast in the bow of my 17′, tried many rocks & later 2 five gallon jugs full of water. It helped some but, I still had the problem with the bow swinging around when I ran into some faster currents. My electric motor has 52 lbs thrust. Perhaps it is the extra length & weight of mine that makes it harder to handle? Is your motor mounted on a square stern or on the side near the back? CowboyMI – Steven W. There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode, nor a Cowboy that couldn’t be throwed….

Response:

Steve:  Try a Coleman Crawdad…square stern, takes either a 2.2 hp or an electric, goes upstream well, damn near indestructible.  I love mine…costs about $800.00 Canadian, and you can get them at Canadian Tire, Walmart, etc.  They’ve got a nice smooth trot and always move on the right lead…Good fishing… Jim Ward Twin Willow Farm Home of good horses, fine whiskey and great wild trout

Response:

You might want to loo at the Mad River Missiquoi, it fits your requirements. However MDRs are expensive, but you get what you pay for. I have a MDR Winooski and love it. It is the same as the Missiquoi without the square stern. I use extensively for fly fishing in South Florida. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am looking for an canoe/boat with a square stern for mounting an electric trolling motor and some type of keel that would allow it to track upstream in a moderate current without the bow being swept around to the rear by the current. Specifically I would be using this in the Muskegon River (in case some may be familiar). I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas. Anybody out there have any suggestions? CowboyMI – Steven W. There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode, nor a Cowboy that couldn’t be throwed….

Response:

: PatKapsner wrote : (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put : the deep cycle : battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became : much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting. : I have tried putting ballast in the bow of my 17′, tried many rocks & : later 2 five gallon jugs full of water. A couple of things. First, your motor is probably just on the edge of being able to push your canoe up the current. With this, adding "ballast" to the front will bring the front down, but it also makes more total weight for the motor (already struggling) to push. Moving the battery up front (thus not adding *more* ballast) may help this. You still might have problems, though. I used to bass fish from a 12′ canoe, and kept the battery up front. Worked beautifully, but I was on still water. Second, is your canoe keeled? Keeled canoes track better, but in your case maybe the keel catches the current quicker. I don’t know, just wondering. Length certainly does matter for turning the bow, so yeah, your little motor is struggling to turn it in this situation. I don’t think stern mount vs. side mount makes much difference, when you’re talking about your 17′er. My tip: pull out a paddle, kneel down a little forward of your rear seat so you can wield the paddle around the middle of the side of the canoe, and help the motor out. With the paddle you can easily keep the bow in place, heading up the current. Assuming you’ve canoed a bit, you know all the push, pull, J strokes you can do to quickly right the direction of the canoe. Try it, I think you’ll get through the fast sections with ease. JonCook.

Response:

Steve W wrote I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas.<< I use a 14′ fiberglass canoe in a similar situation, and sometimes even rivers flowing briskly. My electric motor is only 36 lbs of thrust (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put the deep cycle battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting. Fair winds and following seas, Pat in Pawtucket  RI

What did you do for the long connection from the fron of the boat to the motor?  Bill Mack

Response:

Question:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Have you ever taken a guided float trip on the lower Sacramento river (near Redding, CA)? If so I’d like to heard about your experience. – Would you recommend your guide? – How good was your guide with beginners? – When is the best time to go? I’m thinking of taking my girlfriend on a float trip on the lower Sacramento as her first ff’ing trip.  I’ve already took her out casting and she seemed to really enjoy it.  I’d like to take her on a trip that’s comfortable (she doesn’t get wet), not too stressful (no wading around rough streams), where she doesn’t have to cast far, relatively nice senery, where she stand a very good chance of catching fish (but no fish ponds), relatively close to SF, not too expensive (no $1,000 Orvis fishing schools), where I can also enjoy the trip, and where she’ll learn from a professional (I’ve heard too many horror stories about teaching your SO to fly fish). How’s that for being specific … :^) Thanks, steve

Steve, I promised you a phone number for an excellent guide… (916) 243-5505  Mr. Steve Foster Hope you get an opportunity, good luck!! Bert

Response:

Have you ever taken a guided float trip on the lower Sacramento river (near Redding, CA)? If so I’d like to heard about your experience. – Would you recommend your guide? – How good was your guide with beginners? – When is the best time to go? I’m thinking of taking my girlfriend on a float trip on the lower Sacramento as her first ff’ing trip.  I’ve already took her out casting and she seemed to really enjoy it.  I’d like to take her on a trip that’s comfortable (she doesn’t get wet), not too stressful (no wading around rough streams), where she doesn’t have to cast far, relatively nice senery, where she stand a very good chance of catching fish (but no fish ponds), relatively close to SF, not too expensive (no $1,000 Orvis fishing schools), where I can also enjoy the trip, and where she’ll learn from a professional (I’ve heard too many horror stories about teaching your SO to fly fish). How’s that for being specific … :^) Thanks, steve

Response:

Question:

hmmmmm an angleworm… does that work better that a dry fly !!!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –      In his book "How to Fish the Pacific Coast" author Ray Cannon made the following observation:      "The aristocrat of ocean fisherman is the surf angler.  His pride, prestige, and dignity would be shattered if he were caught fishing on a pier, a boat, or off the rocks.  He would no more fish such places than a dry-fly man would use angleworm.      "The surf man’s field is the soft, clean beach, where the foaming white breakers beat to the rhythm of the sea’s pulse and recharge the waters with effervescing oxygen.  There is no other type of fishing that seems to have such a magnetic drag on its followers.  Such is the lure of the laundered sands."     "…the surf man enjoys dealing with nature single handed.  He dislikes being surrounded with manmade contrivances and helpers to give him bait and gaff his fish.  His ideas are exactly opposite to those of the swordfish angler, who fishes from a swivel chair and has almost everything done for him, even to having the boat chase his hooked gamefish.  The surf angler likes being a lone sea wolf."      I am inclined to agree.      Good fishing,

I would be inclined to agree too, except that I like to catch fish :^) Surf fishing is the most aesthetic way to catch surf species, but the pier has it beat all to hell for results.  Plus, I always get leery of the us vs them attitude implicit in the excerpt abobe; as though one kind of fishing is better than another, or one kind of fisherman is better than another.    The line beginning with "There is no other type of fishing that seems to have such a magnetic drag on it’s followers." discounts too easily the fly fisherman on his stream chasing the mighty salmon or trout,  or the river smallmouth wader casting his jigs and plugs for that one bronzeback of a lifetime, or any of the other scenarios that we pick up over a lifetime of fishing.   I have glided across a remote canadian lake at sunset, trolling for lake trout against a background of tall pines and the calls of loons.   Is that any ‘better’ than battling your first big pike, or straining against a slammer blue in the Carolina surf, or seeing an irridescent dolphin (mahi-mahi) leap out of an azure ocean as it tries to shake your hook?     Don’t get too hung up on that beach,  you can miss a lot of great fishing, and miss meeting some good people too. I can agree with the premise though, it is exhilirating to be standing on a beach on a crisp fall morning, with a rising tide, and casting plugs or bucktails for speckled trout in the trough.  Or wading the trough in the summer, casting a strip of squid for a fat summer flounder.  Or casting spoons, bucktails, or even bare hooks with a strip of cloth for rampaging bluefish as they churn the water to a bloody froth.   The only problem is the dry periods between bites, the inability to get to the fish that are beyond the next bar, and having to haul all your stuff onto the beach. Terry —    DoD# 541                           |  no matter how good it looks."                                         |         ‘Poison’ Ivy Rorschach  

Response:

     In his book "How to Fish the Pacific Coast" author Ray Cannon made the following observation:      "The aristocrat of ocean fisherman is the surf angler.  His pride, prestige, and dignity would be shattered if he were caught fishing on a pier, a boat, or off the rocks.  He would no more fish such places than a dry-fly man would use angleworm.      "The surf man’s field is the soft, clean beach, where the foaming white breakers beat to the rhythm of the sea’s pulse and recharge the waters with effervescing oxygen.  There is no other type of fishing that seems to have such a magnetic drag on its followers.  Such is the lure of the laundered sands."     "…the surf man enjoys dealing with nature single handed.  He dislikes being surrounded with manmade contrivances and helpers to give him bait and gaff his fish.  His ideas are exactly opposite to those of the swordfish angler, who fishes from a swivel chair and has almost everything done for him, even to having the boat chase his hooked gamefish.  The surf angler likes being a lone sea wolf."      I am inclined to agree.      Good fishing,      Mark Rosen

Response:

Question:

: I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more : about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing : salmon flies. : _Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing_ by Joseph D. Bates, Jr. (1970, : Stackpole Books) will give you much of this information.  It’s been long : out of print and so it’s hard to find, but there has recently been talk of : it being reissued.  It’s the best source of historical info on featherwings   Hunters Angling Supplies in New Hampshire (?) list Bate’s book in their ‘95 catalogue. Sorry don’t have thier number handy but I seem to recall the book cost aboout $65. Cheers, tim  Troutdale, OR                                    

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies. Thanks. George George

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies. Thanks. George George

I would be pleased to participate in a discussion of these subjects, since the Miramichi flows "through my backyard". I can see the river from by back door (unfortunately ice-covered at the moment). I will watch this newsgroups for follow-up postings relating to this thread.

Response:

I am interested in exchanging information with people that have some experience in salmon fishing on the Miramichi. I have begun to fish there the ;ast few years and would like to know more about the rivers history, effective patterns and the use of feather wing salmon flies.

_Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing_ by Joseph D. Bates, Jr. (1970, Stackpole Books) will give you much of this information.  It’s been long out of print and so it’s hard to find, but there has recently been talk of it being reissued.  It’s the best source of historical info on featherwings by tiers such as Ira Gruber.  There are also a couple of paperback books by Wayne Curtis which have similar information, and these you can find in stores in the Miramichi valley.  The titles of these books escape me at the moment.  If you have not yet done so, visit the Miramichi Salmon Museum in Doaktown; where much of the region’s angling heritage has been preserved. The exhibits of flies may particularly interest you. Woods Hole, MA   USA  

Response:

I would be pleased to participate in a discussion of these subjects, since the Miramichi flows "through my backyard". I can see the river from by back door (unfortunately ice-covered at the moment). I will watch this newsgroups for follow-up postings relating to this thread.

I am interested in fishing late summer of 1995.  Is this a reasonable time and what suggestions for lodging etc.  I am strickly flyfish, catch and release and would love dry fly action.  What are the chances for Sept.?

Response:

I have had limited experience in July and September but have had sucess on both.  The weather was not suitable for dry flies so most fishing was done on a dry line with green machines in size 8 – 12 doubles.  The September trip, just before the close of the season was very good until it rained heavily.  All four members of my party caught fish in good size.  The fished jumped and ran repeatedly. There are many other more experienced people that seem interested in this topic so I will defer to their information.  I would look forward to the trip in either month but expect it to be fishing – dependent upon conditions. George (MMMGH) George

Response:

Jay, At least one or two others have expressed interest in this topic.  I will look forward to reading your opinions on the subjects. One question I would ask is generally speaking, what color combinations have you found most effective over the years? George George

Response: